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J-24 Full Hoist Spinnaker for PHRF

OD to PHRF

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#1 firesail36

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:23 PM

I know there have been many threads on J-24 from one design to max out a J-24 to the best PHRF capability.

My question should I change to a full hoist spinnaker for racing in flat water Clearlake with average wind of 6 to 10 knots? I race against full hoist Capri 25's and 15/16th Merit 25's..

We race up wind and down wind course only in our series. No triangle. Our competitors already see when it comes to reaching the J-24 is much faster and has eliminate the triangle race.

The boat is fast upwind and most of the time we are first at the weather mark. I true difference down wind with boat speed. The Capri and Merits sail dead down wind and we sail no deeper than boat speed will allow. The Capri 25's sail down wind with 60 square feet of more sail area than the J-24

Has a J-24's change to full hoist for PHRF and what was the penalty? We use Nor Cal PHRF rating system.

I will have the rig down this winter and plan on running a full hoist halyard for the fun of it.

No problem on the course when the wind is up.Just hurt big time in the 6 to 10 knots. Thanks - Pat

#2 Savage 17

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:16 AM

I believe a boat did at Block Island Race week one year. Not sure how they did or if they had a different rig.

#3 Varan

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:35 AM

I know there have been many threads on J-24 from one design to max out a J-24 to the best PHRF capability.

My question should I change to a full hoist spinnaker for racing in flat water Clearlake with average wind of 6 to 10 knots? I race against full hoist Capri 25's and 15/16th Merit 25's..

We race up wind and down wind course only in our series. No triangle. Our competitors already see when it comes to reaching the J-24 is much faster and has eliminate the triangle race.

The boat is fast upwind and most of the time we are first at the weather mark. I true difference down wind with boat speed. The Capri and Merits sail dead down wind and we sail no deeper than boat speed will allow. The Capri 25's sail down wind with 60 square feet of more sail area than the J-24

Has a J-24's change to full hoist for PHRF and what was the penalty? We use Nor Cal PHRF rating system.

I will have the rig down this winter and plan on running a full hoist halyard for the fun of it.

No problem on the course when the wind is up.Just hurt big time in the 6 to 10 knots. Thanks - Pat

Nor Cal ratings when your average wind is only 6 to10 just seems wrong. Buddy of mine got dinged 9 s/m in PHRF-NW for raising the spin hoist on his J29 six inches and lengthening is pole 12". Wasn't worth it.

#4 Foxxy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:12 PM

It really depends on your local PHRF committee. When you sail in OD configuration, you are somewhat protected from arbitrary decisions. When you alter the boat, you open yourself up to subjective decisions. If the PHRF committee is truly fair, you will get a rating which takes away any advantage you gained with more sail area or if not, they could slam you. Either way, you would be wasting your money.

#5 4deckgye

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:25 PM

I race on the Chesapeake in Annapolis where our summer normal is 5-10 knots (more around 5 than 10). There is a lot of one design out there for us to do, but the Wednesday night beer can series is PHRF against Catalina 27's and Cal 25's and some other mixes. All mast head kites. So many times I am the smallest boat out there, but 1st to the Windward mark, we turn around and sail angles (in the light stuff) to get to leeward. Every other mast head kite sails DDW, same boat speed or faster than us and crushes us to the mark. I have thought that a mast head kite would make a huge difference in the light stuff.

But I also race in the Spring, Fall, and Winter, where the wind is heavier (10-20) on the reg. We all know how small the keel is on the boat, and how unstable the J/24 is in breeze. I think a mast head would be a nightmare in 20 knots, and you would have trouble keeping her on her feet.

The penalty isn't worth it and when it blows, it could be outright dangerous

#6 Speedskater

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:30 PM

A long time ago, some of the J/24's would also race PHRF in Cleveland Race Week. The J/24's would race with their One Design setup. Many of the other boats in their PHRF class were 30 foot mast head spinnaker cruisers. The problem was not upwind or dead down wind. The problem was reaching, the J/24 spinnaker does not close reach well. And on any reach there are no real course options and the bigger boats had more water line length speed.

#7 Speedskater

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:50 PM

[************]

But I also race in the Spring, Fall, and Winter, where the wind is heavier (10-20) on the reg. We all know how small the keel is on the boat, and how unstable the J/24 is in breeze. I think a mast head would be a nightmare in 20 knots, and you would have trouble keeping her on her feet.
[************]


That's nonsense!

Way back then (maybe 1980 to 1995) we had an end of the season free-for-all called the "Sea Dog" race. They had one start for all the boats in th club on a long mostly fixed mark race, They still have the race but the J/24 fleet is not very involved. The standing joke was "if the weather's not bad enough they will postpone the race". High wind, rain, waves and cold often made it the worst sailing day of the season.

The J/24's cleaned up in that race.

#8 Merit 25

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

All depends on what the hit would be.

The Merit is a better J/24. Period. The only time when the J24 has an edge is at the top end of the #1. The Merit needs to change over sooner, preferably to a #2 (which they don’t usually carry). My experience tells me that the J likes to sail deeper than what feels good. The Merit likes to be sailed a little hotter.


The J with its bubble chute can go downwind really well, but that’s from years of w/l development. The Merit has a more ‘typical’ chute that can be trimmed to a lot more points of sail. The M also has another 100 lbs in the keel and no leehelm, better rudder design, etc. Larger traveler as well, which helps on reaching. I’ve raced against a few J’s and one clear advantage we have over them is a tight reach, it’s not even close.


If they only hit you 3 sec a mile, I think it would be worth it, but the J does get squirrely downwind in breeze. So you might keep a frac halyard setup in case it decides to blow.

#9 Hobie Dog

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

What are you doing over here! You my friend spend too much time on SA! :lol:

OK my happy ass is going back to DA...

#10 4deckgye

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:57 PM


[************]

But I also race in the Spring, Fall, and Winter, where the wind is heavier (10-20) on the reg. We all know how small the keel is on the boat, and how unstable the J/24 is in breeze. I think a mast head would be a nightmare in 20 knots, and you would have trouble keeping her on her feet.
[************]


That's nonsense!

Way back then (maybe 1980 to 1995) we had an end of the season free-for-all called the "Sea Dog" race. They had one start for all the boats in th club on a long mostly fixed mark race, They still have the race but the J/24 fleet is not very involved. The standing joke was "if the weather's not bad enough they will postpone the race". High wind, rain, waves and cold often made it the worst sailing day of the season.

The J/24's cleaned up in that race.


Agreed, the J/24 in Big breeze is a PHRF Killer: Can carry the Genoa to 18kts and outpoint everything on the course, and (with the fractional kite) get pretty damn fast downwind. When I sail PHRF the bigger the breeze, the better I do. This is with a one design config.

My point being, J/24's have been known to broach / death roll / sink with the kite up in heavy air, now add a mast head kite, with more sail area, farther aloft, reducing righting movement. What you have is a sail that will knock you down sooner than the frac rig.

#11 j24vt

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:53 PM

Use the money you would spend on the chute/rig change to hire one of the top J24 trimmers to come on the boat and coach you. I suspect you are not sailing deep enough.

The things I've learned: I keep bearing off downwind until the trimmer whines at me to heat up. I then hold that course until he whines at me again :) Keep the pole lower and further back than you think is right. We typically pass more boats off the wind than pass us.

#12 12 metre

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

Has a J-24's change to full hoist for PHRF and what was the penalty? We use Nor Cal PHRF rating system.


PHRF adjustments are generally base on code bands. You can't just say "full hoist" and get a correct answer. You have to povide Spin luff length, girth, and pole length since the spin adjustments are usually based on these measurements. It is very easy to get very offside if any one of these measurements puts you into another code band.

In the case of an extreme example, you could add 1 inch to the pole, 1 inch to the jib LP, and 1 inch to the mainsail foot and be hit with a 9 second penalty, on the other hand, it is also possible to reduce these same measurements by 1 inch and get a 9 second credit.

Using my boat as another example, it is a light fractional 27 footer (not a J). It came with an oversized chute compared to the base boat - 3.5 feet longer on the spin luff but about 1 foot narrower girth. In total, about 55 sq ft more spin area than the base boat. Good runner, but not so good for reaching. Anyways, the boat carried a 6 sec penalty here in PHRF-BC. I used a spreadsheet I got from a sailmaker using the local formulae, tumbled some numbers and found if I chopped 2.5 inches off the pole, the penalty was reduced to 3 seconds (i.e. went from code 7 to code 6 on the spin). Conversely, I could have lengthened the pole by about 6 inches and still maintained the original 6 second penalty. I elected to shorten the pole.

Here is a link to the PHRF-BC web-site. click on the Sail Area Calculator, which contains a link to a spreadsheet allowing you to see the rating effects of any proposed adjustments to the sail plan. You do have to input the proposed sail measurements and the base boat measurements. Of course, if you are only concerned about the spin, you should be able to get results from inputting the spin measurements only,.

http://www.bcsailing...2131619phrf.php

As they say on the web-site, it may not work for all PHRF regions, but if your local PHRF doesn't have such a tool and you can get their formulae for the rating bands, you can alter the speadsheet with their formulae where required - of course this assumes a certain degree of ability in Excel.

Yes, it could be a lot of work if the speadsheet needs to be altered for local adjustment factors, or if you are lucky, your region uses the same formulae as PHRF-BC.

#13 HHN92

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:04 PM

A couple of J24's altered their spinakers for MORC Nationals, back in '95 IIRC. One went with a cheater pole and wider spin, the other used a Morgan 24 spin from the masthead. (fit perfect) The masthead version outperformed the cheater pole. Dead down in 6-10 it is no big deal.

Now, how the PHRF committee deals with you is another thing.

#14 BJJC

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

Did this a few years back with a J24 and continue to do so with other local PHRF chutes. Can't recall all details with respects to the 24, however following was the procedure and mind set.

Our local PHRF body (PHRF - Lake Ontario) had/has a method grouping spinnaker sizing against a base and assigning rating penalties in 3sec intervals.

We changed the spinnaker hoist to max (ie masthead), accounting for any structural constraints in the rig. And then to maximise the spinnaker width (via an extended pole) to what ever allowable total spinnaker sizing would equal a 6/9sec penalty.

Your wind speeds (6 to 10) and courses (windward/leeward) are congruent with ours. The result was obver the whole race a net gain on boatspeed without an equal penalty in rating. Would not in the least hesitate doing this again. By the way also a good move for IRC.

#15 gkny

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

Try .5 0z cloth instead of class required .75 for the spin. Also light air sheets




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