215 replies to this topic

[Whisper]

Shoot for four! We need more intelligent, hardworking, fun people populating the planet!

I have two daughters, and my fiancé has two daughters. We crammed the 6 of us in a 34-footer for two nights every weekend. When the age span was 10-16, it helped to have a flatscreen and DVD player onboard. Not all the tweens wanted to do the same thing at the same time, so the diversion helped to quell whatever mischief the hormone devils concocted (their iPhones and iPads would have done just as well--if they existed then). Still, we all had fun every time. Now they're 16-22 and either away at college, or out with boyfriends, or whatever. The 34 footer has more room now, but it's still too small. We're looking for something in the 47-52 range before the youngest completes college and we untie for good.

No minivans! Four kids does NOT justify THAT fate!

[Bob Perry]

We had two mini vans. They were great ski cars and perfect with two boys. They were my wife's cars.

[Whisper]

One of the best ski cars I had growing up was a VW Bug. It had better traction, and controlled drifting, than the Audi 4000 Quattro I bought in college. But neither were as good for group ski trips as the motorhome I had before the Audi. Traction, controlled slides, AND room for 6 + gear + refreshments + sleeping and head facilities. It did heel a little on windy days.

[Dale dug a hole]

This is Bob, Bob thinks it ok to own a Mini Van because 'Its my Wife's car' and that they make great 'Ski Cars'.

Well Bob you need to ski down a slope of HTFU

[Bob Perry]

Dale:
Very funny. At the time I was driving a nice Mercedes 300 SD so I really didn'lt care what car my wife drove so long as it went in the snow and had plenty of room inside. I did find that more upright van seating position quite comfortable on long trips though.

[blackjenner]

This is Bob, Bob thinks it ok to own a Mini Van because 'Its my Wife's car' and that they make great 'Ski Cars'.

Well Bob you need to ski down a slope of HTFU

It's not my job to defend Bob but, I was in the exact same position a while ago. She wanted a mini-van so we got her a Dodge. She loved it. It carried a shitload of stuff, was great on the freeway, and good for family trips. It also drove well for a vehicle that size. We went through two, actually. It was her car as much as the Miata I bought a few years later was my car. She was happy with it and, as Kim says, "Happy wife, happy life."

I had my Mustang at the time.

[Whisper]

I used to do a lot of driving, and I wanted to mount a gun turret to my car to keep the fast lane open. Two designated targets: Minivans and Priuses (Prii?)

[Dale dug a hole]

This is Bob, Bob thinks it ok to own a Mini Van because 'Its my Wife's car' and that they make great 'Ski Cars'.

Well Bob you need to ski down a slope of HTFU

It's not my job to defend Bob but, I was in the exact same position a while ago. She wanted a mini-van so we got her a Dodge. She loved it. It carried a shitload of stuff, was great on the freeway, and good for family trips. It also drove well for a vehicle that size. We went through two, actually. It was her car as much as the Miata I bought a few years later was my car. She was happy with it and, as Kim says, "Happy wife, happy life."

I had my Mustang at the time.

No its not your job to defend Bob, I'm sure he's big and ugly enough to do that himself.

But just quietly, I own a van, don't tell anybody

[U20guy2]

Courtney pretty sure the Honda two seater isn't going to work but if your living on a super nice big boat - you should be cruising and have no need for a bus to haul the vermin around in. LOL

My youngest is 7 months and oldest is 3yrs - with several grand parents close by. We sold our old and very loved land cruiser this summer and bought the closest thing to a Mini van I will ever own. 07 Sequoia Limited. Not kidding when I say it has identical seating to my buddies brand new Sienna. The difference? I paid $21,000 for our 4wd-V8 powered exceptionally comfy and roomy ride and he dropped over 40K on his V6 powered 2wd mini van. We both did similar summer trips regarding people and crap hauled and got the same mileage. As for the back doors - they are huge on the Sequoia I can lift my 3yr old into her car seat sitting in the 3rd row while standing at the 2nd row door. The suburban's I've been in all have 2nd row doors that came from clown cars very narrow and hard to get in and out of.

[Jose Carumba]

We had a minivan for 12 years. I hated to drive it, but it sure was practical. Took my son & daughter to cub scouts and brownies, then boy scouts and girl scouts and sea scouts and assorted summer camps, hauled half the soccer team, moved furniture, pulled small boats, etc. It was great for cross country trips because each kid had their own seat. None of that silly video equipment for the kids (look outside, see the country). My wife traded it in on a Suby Forester during cash for clunkers. I don't miss it but can't dis it either.

[Tom Ray]

I bought one of those Toyota minivans that is shaped, it turns out, like a Bolger Fiddler II when I was a college student. All the guys made fun until it was time to decide whose vehicle to take on any trip.

I really liked that car. Seated seven, slept two in a pretty decent excuse for a bed, and I could put a whole bunch of sheets of plywood in there and close the doors. Manual transmission and I could push start it by myself, but it really helped to have a helper to push.

[Para Bellum]

Hate to say it but I actually like mini-vans. Captains chairs are super comfy. My dad's old Toyota van had a factory installed six-pack cooler and ice maker between the front seats. Those Japanese know what they're doing.

Still not buying one though.

[Steam Flyer]

We had a minivan for 12 years. I hated to drive it, but it sure was practical. Took my son & daughter to cub scouts and brownies, then boy scouts and girl scouts and sea scouts and assorted summer camps, hauled half the soccer team, moved furniture, pulled small boats, etc. It was great for cross country trips because each kid had their own seat. None of that silly video equipment for the kids (look outside, see the country). My wife traded it in on a Suby Forester during cash for clunkers. I don't miss it but can't dis it either.

Hell yes I miss my minivan
WTF is wrong with you all? A vehicle that can carry 8 people -OR- a load of construction material including a dozen sheets of plywood, has a great stereo, comfy for long trips, sliding doors one hack of a lot easier to get in & out of -or- load/unload cargo, and gets ~25mpg?
If I could buy a minivan with the same capability as my '96 Windstar with the heavy suspension & tow package, I would in a heartbeat. Instead, because knuckleheads wanting gas-guzzler bling-mobiles are the majority, I have to buy a "crossover vehicle" which is basically an SUV.

The problem with the economy is that companies which make better products go broke. If you build a better mousetrap the world will NOT beat a path to your door. The world will keep right buying whatever products are the most heavily advertised and carry the best freudian feel-good-about-myself internal messaging.

So there!

FB- Doug

[monsoon]

I used to do a lot of driving, and I wanted to mount a gun turret to my car to keep the fast lane open. Two designated targets: Minivans and Priuses (Prii?)

'Round here (NE) its Subarus. Seems Subaru is Japanese for 'Self Righteous Defender of the Speed Limit'.

[boomer]

I used to do a lot of driving, and I wanted to mount a gun turret to my car to keep the fast lane open.

I always thought a laser would be practical....and environmentally friendly.

[Elegua]

I used to do a lot of driving, and I wanted to mount a gun turret to my car to keep the fast lane open. Two designated targets: Minivans and Priuses (Prii?)

'Round here (NE) its Subarus. Seems Subaru is Japanese for 'Self Righteous Defender of the Speed Limit'.

Unless you buy a WRX STi or a the now no longer available in the US 2.5GT wagon. 265hp and 5.3s to 60 out of the box and easily tuned to much much more. I get about 290 out of mine now. Toasts a lot of cars that cost a lot more.

[Whisper]

It's not the car, but the type of drivers they attract. There are the self-righteous defenders of the speed limit, and also the clueless morons with no situational awareness who don't even reach the speed limit.

So Courtney, when you splash this litter of four A-Djaxes, please teach them to stay out the the fast lane when people need to get through. They might be rushing to close the deal on an ideal live aboard/world cruiser.

Betcha didn't think I could steer this back on track!

[Elegua]

It's not the car, but the type of drivers they attract. There are the self-righteous defenders of the speed limit, and also the clueless morons with no situational awareness who don't even reach the speed limit.

So Courtney, when you splash this litter of four A-Djaxes, please teach them to stay out the the fast lane when people need to get through. They might be rushing to close the deal on an ideal live aboard/world cruiser.

Betcha didn't think I could steer this back on track!

Oh, you mean the crunchy owners.

I'm wondering where does the max size of boat easily handled come into this? I've felt that 40' would be about the max that someone would want to sail short handed easily. I know that modern technology and lower displacements have changed this equation, but given the forces and weight involved....where do we draw the line?

[kdh]

Dale:
Very funny. At the time I was driving a nice Mercedes 300 SD so I really didn'lt care what car my wife drove so long as it went in the snow and had plenty of room inside. I did find that more upright van seating position quite comfortable on long trips though.

I love that car.

[Ritchard]

I used to do a lot of driving, and I wanted to mount a gun turret to my car to keep the fast lane open. Two designated targets: Minivans and Priuses (Prii?)

Here I find the nuisance is the Corolla driven by someone whose head you cannot see above the headrest. The seem to congregate and move about the highways in packs.

I have had a couple of minivans. Seemed to be a good idea when I had little guys. These vehicles were usually augmented with Volvo turbo wagons.

The second minivan I got - a Toyota and a really nice vehicle for a minivan - was useful when I was doing badass technical diving. I could transport all sorts of tanks and gear, and still lay out a bedroll and sleep on one side of the rear area.

[kdh]

Courtney seems to have given up on us. Did one of you old farts pass gas?

[Ishmael]

Naw, it's her usual routine. Ask a couple of questions, then quietly slip away while the old farts bicker and dredge up old memories. It's like being a bartender at the Legion.

[Tucky]

Naw, it's her usual routine. Ask a couple of questions, then quietly slip away while the old farts bicker and dredge up old memories. It's like being a bartender at the Legion.

Perfect.

[Bob Perry]

kdh:
I bought my 300 sd in 1979 new. It cost $29,500. At that time I thought, "Are you crazy? Spending that much on a car?" I got the fancy wheels.
I put 200,000 trouble free miles on that car. Best car I have ever owned. Gave it to Max when he was in high school. He put another 25,000 miles on it.
I told my taciturn German mechanic I was going to give it to Max and he said, "What's the matter? Dont' you love him?"
I can remember the comfort I got from hearing that diesel engine as he turned down our street to come home.

[Soñadora]

hah!

This thread is like a night at the bar full of sailors. A nice girl comes in, hangs around, the guys get stoopid drunk, piss of the girl and don't even notice she's left. Then the conversation goes to cars.

Always goes to cars.

[blackjenner]

I love this. We have gone from "what kind of boat should I get" to bitching about lousy drivers and attaching said drives to particular brands and models of cars.

[Ishmael]

It's a change from the usual topic drift to food...oh, wait! That's next.

[Whisper]

It's a change from the usual topic drift to food...oh, wait! That's next.

One drawback of kids is that they need fuel. Often they need fuel while on the road. I've never met a kid who can eat in a car without making a mess. I hate that. I also hate stopping to pump out their holding tanks every time they get bored and restless. Fortunately, we only live a couple miles from the marina, so stopping is rarely an issue (unless we forgot to pack their preferred fuel). Once on the boat, there is no stopping, but lots of eating. That will also be the case on the Ideal Liveaboard/world cruiser.

[kdh]

kdh:
I bought my 300 sd in 1979 new. It cost $29,500. At that time I thought, "Are you crazy? Spending that much on a car?" I got the fancy wheels.
I put 200,000 trouble free miles on that car. Best car I have ever owned. Gave it to Max when he was in high school. He put another 25,000 miles on it.
I told my taciturn German mechanic I was going to give it to Max and he said, "What's the matter? Dont' you love him?"
I can remember the comfort I got from hearing that diesel engine as he turned down our street to come home.

I tried to get Ann to buy this one from a local dealer. She loves classic cars. But she pointed out that it wouldn't have airbags so would be less safe driving Adele around than a new car. Couldn't argue with that.

[SemiSalt]

There are the self-righteous defenders of the speed limit,...

Back at the time of the gas shortage in the '70s, I knew a man who owned a Mercedes. I don't remember what model, if I ever knew. He could quote the difference in gas consumption driving from NYC to Essex, CT at 45mph vs 55mph, the implication being that he had driven from NYC to Essex at 45 mph.

[kdh]

There are the self-righteous defenders of the speed limit,...

Back at the time of the gas shortage in the '70s, I knew a man who owned a Mercedes. I don't remember what model, if I ever knew. He could quote the difference in gas consumption driving from NYC to Essex, CT at 45mph vs 55mph, the implication being that he had driven from NYC to Essex at 45 mph.

Ann has the Golf TDI diesel. I averaged 50.7 mpg on a highway trip last weekend. Did not go particularly slow.

[Whisper]

There are the self-righteous defenders of the speed limit,...

Back at the time of the gas shortage in the '70s, I knew a man who owned a Mercedes. I don't remember what model, if I ever knew. He could quote the difference in gas consumption driving from NYC to Essex, CT at 45mph vs 55mph, the implication being that he had driven from NYC to Essex at 45 mph.

Might as well walk!

[U20guy2]

There are the self-righteous defenders of the speed limit,...

Back at the time of the gas shortage in the '70s, I knew a man who owned a Mercedes. I don't remember what model, if I ever knew. He could quote the difference in gas consumption driving from NYC to Essex, CT at 45mph vs 55mph, the implication being that he had driven from NYC to Essex at 45 mph.

Ann has the Golf TDI diesel. I averaged 50.7 mpg on a highway trip last weekend. Did not go particularly slow.

During the oil embargo - my parents had a VW Dasher I recall it was like 70hp non turbo diesel. We had that car for 15yrs slow as molasses - but it got mileage that was quite impressive 50+mpg and you could fit a full sized fridge in it!

[Steam Flyer]

... ...So Courtney, when you splash this litter of four A-Djaxes, please teach them to stay out the the fast lane when people need to get through. They might be rushing to close the deal on an ideal live aboard/world cruiser.

Betcha didn't think I could steer this back on track!

Hah!
You haven't notably succeeded yet.

And how long has it been since one of you losers bought the girl a drink, eh?

FB- Doug

[kimbottles]

kdh:
I bought my 300 sd in 1979 new. It cost $29,500. At that time I thought, "Are you crazy? Spending that much on a car?" I got the fancy wheels.
I put 200,000 trouble free miles on that car. Best car I have ever owned. Gave it to Max when he was in high school. He put another 25,000 miles on it.
I told my taciturn German mechanic I was going to give it to Max and he said, "What's the matter? Dont' you love him?"
I can remember the comfort I got from hearing that diesel engine as he turned down our street to come home.

I have owned a number of diesel vehicles, Peugeot's, VW's, Mercedes, Sprinters. I really like diesel vehicles especially the new common rail variety. Just wish we got all of the really good ones they have in Europe.

[kimbottles]

... ...So Courtney, when you splash this litter of four A-Djaxes, please teach them to stay out the the fast lane when people need to get through. They might be rushing to close the deal on an ideal live aboard/world cruiser.

Betcha didn't think I could steer this back on track!

Hah!
You haven't notably succeeded yet.

And how long has it been since one of you losers bought the girl a drink, eh?

FB- Doug

I make SWMBO Italian Spritzes often, does that count?

[blackjenner]

There are the self-righteous defenders of the speed limit,...

Back at the time of the gas shortage in the '70s, I knew a man who owned a Mercedes. I don't remember what model, if I ever knew. He could quote the difference in gas consumption driving from NYC to Essex, CT at 45mph vs 55mph, the implication being that he had driven from NYC to Essex at 45 mph.

Might as well walk!

I get what you are saying but, I don't know if a 36 hour (assuming 3mph) walk is better than a two and a half hour drive.

[sailglobal]

BP said < "I can remember the comfort I got from hearing that diesel engine as he turned down our street to come home." >
I'm just about to pull the "screamin Yanmar" out of Van Diemen and put in a new Nanni, which is the marinized version of the 300MBZ turbo. I hope the comfort comes with the marine version, and I also hope it's a whisper

[Bob Perry]

Globs:
a "whisper"? I hope so too. The diesel engine noise I remember sounded a lot like the garbage truck coming down the street. Not sure I'd call it a whisper. But in the car the engine was very quiet. In 230,000 miles that engine did not once fail to start. The single repair I did to that car, except for some heater issues, was the differential.

[Whisper]

Did somebody call my name?

I have a 1991 300 SE with around 210k miles in my back yard. It was a whisper until some chica ran a red light and totaled it. It was the last year for that body style. Anyone want it for parts?

[Soñadora]

I hope you guys and your mercedes are appropriately dressed with jaunty driving cap, scarf, pipe, and driving gloves.

[reis123]

Let's suppose (hypothetically) one wanted to live aboard a comfortable vessel that could accommodate a family: mom, dad, up to four crumb-crunchers. This vessel would not only be comfortable to live aboard, but have decent to great sailing performance. Allow me to define both of those requirements. This is future planning/wondering/musing. I'm neither married nor pregnant!

Comfotable: plenty of headroom, open "floor plan," enough room for people to walk around and do little dances when their hearts required it. Lots of berths and storage space. Great dining space, functional galley.

Performance: sturdy, stout, sails well to weather and off the wind. Points relatively high. Handles rough weather with a scoff and a laugh, but can sail decently in calmer conditions. Is there such a boat?

Qualifications:

Type of boat is open: sloop, cutter, slutter, ketch, yawl, etc. all on the table.

Size: a comfortable boat for up to six people needs to be big, but stay within the handling capabilities of two adults. Boat should be no smaller than 40 feet.

Budget: under the cost of a house. Let's put this budget around...$200k, just for kicks. If money was no object, there would be no reason for a post.

Interior aesthetic: warm, cozy, homey. Not stark and sterile. Teaky.

PIctures welcome, current listings would be fun, but not necessary. Ideas???

Try a 85' boat + built in aluminum.

Guys here like small, plastic boats, which, are seaworthy except when the sea is in anything but a 2 1/2 foot chop offshore. They like to talk about them, you know, BIG sailboats they do not own, but, they never sail but for day-sailing typically, it is why they are in the, um, "cruising", section of anarchy.

People (you know, Bob) here write about plastic boats as if they deserved it!

[Ishmael]

Looks like Mr. Bobblehead is out of the drunk tank again.

[Paps]

Actually his language is starting to give him away Ish.

Re read his post with a hand on hip kinda vibe and a queeny whine with just a hint of a lissssp, darling.

[Para Bellum]

Try a 85' boat + built in aluminum.

Guys here like small, plastic boats, which, are seaworthy except when the sea is in anything but a 2 1/2 foot chop offshore. They like to talk about them, you know, BIG sailboats they do not own, but, they never sail but for day-sailing typically, it is why they are in the, um, "cruising", section of anarchy.

People (you know, Bob) here write about plastic boats as if they deserved it!

[Ishmael]

Please don't quote the troll.
What a sad sack of shit he is.

[Para Bellum]

Please don't quote the troll.
What a sad sack of shit he is.

Agreed.

[Mark Morwood]

I understand you are not yet at this point in your life, but when you get there, I'd suggest at least revisiting the mono-hull versus catamaran question. You'll find more and more cruising families on catamarans. We happily cruised well before kids for 2 years on a monohull, but when we managed to get ourselves in a position to go cruising with our kids for a couple of years, a catamaran was the easy choice. It won on space, comfort, speed, and room for boat toys to keep everyone happy (we're currently at anchor in the Bahamas with a RIB, an 11' sailing dinghy, 2 inflatable SUPs, and 2 inflatable kayaks floating off the stern) though probably loses out on comfort and performance in truly awful conditions.

Mark.

[Tom Ray]

I understand you are not yet at this point in your life, but when you get there, I'd suggest at least revisiting the mono-hull versus catamaran question. You'll find more and more cruising families on catamarans. We happily cruised well before kids for 2 years on a monohull, but when we managed to get ourselves in a position to go cruising with our kids for a couple of years, a catamaran was the easy choice. It won on space, comfort, speed, and room for boat toys to keep everyone happy (we're currently at anchor in the Bahamas with a RIB, an 11' sailing dinghy, 2 inflatable SUPs, and 2 inflatable kayaks floating off the stern) though probably loses out on comfort and performance in truly awful conditions.

Mark.

Would you be interested in adopting one more kid who has just a few gray hairs?

[Bob Perry]

I suppose I would take ofense if I could ever figure out what he was trying to say. Hes not very articulate.
I keep the guy on "ignore" so I'd appreciate it if you would not quote him.

[Paps]

Yes Bob, Reis he not have way.

[zedboy]

Meanwhile, back on the original topic, this is something I've thought about (actually having 4 kids)...

I've got a new personal winner: http://www.yachtworl...C/United-States

It's the extra pullman stateroom forward that does it for me: http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=2797

Like having a 3-bedroom in a world of 2s. I think it's the first production boat I've seen that the Admiral might actually consider...

[Ishmael]

I mentioned it a while back. Bob says the cockpit is very uncomfortable, and John Kretschmer doesn't like it much either; Kretschmer does like the rest of the boat a lot, and you can make decent seating if you have to.

[zedboy]

I mentioned it a while back. Bob says the cockpit is very uncomfortable, and John Kretschmer doesn't like it much either; Kretschmer does like the rest of the boat a lot, and you can make decent seating if you have to.

Yeah, of anything you'd have to fix on a design, I'd be pretty happy if all it needs is foam.

On second thought, after doing about 8 massive loads of laundry today, I don't think this is happening so quick - I didn't see a washer anywhere on the layout. Do I really wanna drag all that down the dock to the laundry room? There's a reason no one's designing for our market segment.

CK, why don't you come here and watch our kids for a couple days while we go on vacation? Then tell us again about your whole plan...

[Diarmuid]

Saga 43 has a Pullman option. It's a real sailing boat, too.

[Dartanyon]

I was just going through this same exercise ... What if I took the same money I put into a house, and had put it into a boat. Around 200k I came up with this.

http://www.yachtworl...I/United-States

[Ishmael]

For $235K you could get this http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States and $80K change to live on.

[Soñadora]

For $235K you could get this http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States and $80K change to live on.

Nice find. Except, why do people insist on putting instruments right where the best place to sit in the cockpit is? "Excuse me, please move so I can see if we're about to run aground."

[chester]

Wow, some fun suggestions!

To be totally clear again: I'm not married or engaged! I'm just pondering and thought this would be a fun "What If" sort of thread. Again, NO BABIES ON THE WAY!!! That's why I said it was hypothetical! But I know that I do want a family at some point in time. I'm traditional, so it'll be like the playground song: "First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes the baby in the baby carriage."

And obviously I'd prefer this hypothetical man to be rich, but that's not a requirement. Keep the boat ideas coming, it's fun!

so...have you had an ultrasound yet? boy or girl or are you keeping the mystery?????

[Ishmael]

For $235K you could get this http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States and $80K change to live on.

Nice find. Except, why do people insist on putting instruments right where the best place to sit in the cockpit is? "Excuse me, please move so I can see if we're about to run aground."

At least with the Raymarine gear you can get most data readout on the autopilot; with a crowd in front of the instruments I set up the AP display for whatever is most important, speed or depth.

[chester]

kdh:
I bought my 300 sd in 1979 new. It cost $29,500. At that time I thought, "Are you crazy? Spending that much on a car?" I got the fancy wheels.
I put 200,000 trouble free miles on that car. Best car I have ever owned. Gave it to Max when he was in high school. He put another 25,000 miles on it.
I told my taciturn German mechanic I was going to give it to Max and he said, "What's the matter? Dont' you love him?"
I can remember the comfort I got from hearing that diesel engine as he turned down our street to come home.

I tried to get Ann to buy this one from a local dealer. She loves classic cars. But she pointed out that it wouldn't have airbags so would be less safe driving Adele around than a new car. Couldn't argue with that.

don't make me cry! i just lost my TD wagon version of that car to a deer.

[Joli]

We've been down sizing, getting ready to go sailing. Mrs. Joli gave up her MB and a winter car for one car she can drive year round. ER 1's are fun on warm dry pavement but not much good in a foot of snow.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Courtney,

Wow, have you received a lot of advice, council, wisdom, crap from all of us..... You probably know a lot of this stuff, so feel free to ignore it all.....

Not to heap it on, but here's what my x-wife and I did. Two kids, waited until the little guy (now 25) was well out of diapers and semi-sane at 3, then set off for five years. Older one, my darling daughter, was 7 when we left. Results, which was just re-confirmed by being with them for the TurkeyDay Weekend, was outstanding. They are about the best friends each other could ever have, they've both done really well in school, work, and life. I think growing up in close proximity to parents who are interacting with the real world (Sailing) is a much better way to raise kids than carting them around in any sort of car/van/truck from one "sports" event to another. I'm clearly biased, but I think it's a LOT better for a 7 year old to learn open water swimming along side a parent in a lagoon in the S. Pacific than from some pimply 16 year old at the country club. OK, I'll get off my horse now, but if you have the chance to raise your kids at sea - give it a shot and you won't regret it for an instant. While the five year cruise probably did a fair amount of damage to the marriage, thus it being my x-wife, that was for reasons that have nothing to do with the kids. It was a giant win for them. In summary, if you want your kids to act like and learn much of what they know from kids then have them spend a lot of time with kids - once grown, they'll act a lot like kids. If, however, you want them to act more like tiny adults and learn how to behave from adults, have them spend a lot of time with adults. They are little sponges and learn from whomever they are around - you get to choose who they spend time with. Try to avoid that being someone you don't admire/like/love/respect. I have never understood leaving kids with a nanny one doesn't even like and then moaning about how misbehaved and illiterate the children are.... oh well.

Now, to boat size and type. I think a lot of cruisers spend a crazy amount of time fretting about stuff that doesn't actually matter. A terrific example of this is what sort of rig one has. It really doesn't matter - at all. Sure, there are better or worse characteristics of the various rigs, but the INSTANT that you decide not to go sailing because the perfect "sloop" or "schooner" isn't available in your price range you've blown it - in my opinion. Going sailing should always trump having the perfect boat/rig/interior/stove/rudder/autopilot/chart-plotter etc... etc.... etc.... What does seem to matter is the complexity of the boat you choose. I am someone who likes to tinker with things and fix stuff. A complex boat doesn't bother me. I have dear friends who can't change the batteries in a flashlight, they should (and do) own simple boats. Be realistic about what sorts of systems you and Mr. Missing In Action So Far want to maintain because you will - guaranteed - spend MORE time maintaining the boat's systems than you will sailing the boat. Even with the best of equipment, my experience is that you'll do about 2 days of maintenance and logistics for each day sailing. With a complex boat, with stuff like water makers, generators etc... it will be close to three days of maint/logistics for each day sailing. Go simple if you can. Finally, on the topic of boat type size does matter. You'll find you crave space, at least I do. My criteria was to choose the largest boat I could sail single-handedly. This was because I was going to be single handing. Things happen, folks get sick, seasick, want to sleep, etc.... and one ends up single handing. Electric winches etc... make it possible to sail a much larger boat these days - provided that stuff keeps working. Here again, complexity is traded for a bigger boat, which leads to more maintenance and less sailing time. Your budget will get you a much larger simple boat and a much smaller complex boat. Choose the big simple one - it'll get you sailing and keep you sailing more of the time.

Finally, get a boat with manners. By this I mean a design that doesn't mis-treat you. Picking out a boat is a lot like picking out Mr. Missing In Action So Far. You want a boat that will care for you when the weather is bad, hold you when it's cold outside, and never let you down. Sailing manners in a boat design is something that you can only determine by sailing on a boat in crumby weather - ride on other people's boats. See what your Boat Date will do to you when it's blowing 35 and there are big ugly gnarly bumps. This is when it really counts. You can put up with a lot of other nonsense, like not having exactly the sort of furler you wanted, or having to sail a Yawl when you really wanted a Schooner etc.... but a boat with bad manners will just let you down when it matters most. All of Mr. Perry's designs that I've sailed on have had excellent manners, as to almost all the S&S designs and the Wylie designs. Before buying S'agapo the Admiral and I flew to Seattle, England and France sailing sister-ships or S'agapo herself, and sailing in every sort of foul weather we could find. We determined she had good manners by rounding up, spinning out, tacking in giant waves and drifting around in no wind at all. You won't pick a husband without giving him a good run around the block, don't choose a boat based on the flyer/web-site/on-line-nonsense. Looks will fade, good manners will last for as long as your boat's afloat.

Probably more than you wanted and stuff you already know... Good luck.

BV

[blackjenner]

As usual, BV dominates the Summary event in the Boat Selection Olympics, even receiving a 9.5 from the Russian judge.

Nice work.

[Jose Carumba]

Very well put BV.

[Soñadora]

Utmost respect to BV, but I'm going to counter somewhat.

If you really do want to raise your children at sea, the ages BV mentioned are absolutely critical. Too young and you won't enjoy it. Too old and the kids won't enjoy it. As the father of 3 very busy girls, I early on tried my hardest to convince Mrs. Sons to sell up and sail (since 'selling up' is the only way we could have done it). Her pragmatic, Nordic roots held fast and though we came close to breaking our bond, I relented and put 'the dream' off, as so many others do. Now, nearly 17 years on, I look back and feel we made the right decision. Raising kids is a big deal. As many different kids there are, there are that many different ways to raise them. As we are both full time working parents, we went the daycare/nanny route. And one thing that sort of chaps my hide a bit is when those who have no experience with structured daycare or having a nanny talk about how it 'ruins' kids. Our experience has been nothing short of 180 degrees from that. Our kids are more socially adjusted, smarter, and well rounded due in part to their daycare and nanny experience. We adored our nanny so much she pretty much became part of the family (she will be coming to visit this spring for 2 months). When those institutions fail in a family, it's not because of the institution, it's because of the parents. Many parents use those vehicles as surrogates. The key is to use them to enhance. Realize there is no substitute for parents. Stay engaged with them and spend as much time as you can. But, as BV said, you know this. And even if you don't now, you'll know when the time comes.

As it relates to sailing, that is the single reason we do not sail as much as we would like to. We are nurturing our girls' interests and currently, sailing is not their #1 interest. And that is their choice. While I have deep respect (and a tinge of envy) for those who take their families cruising, I honestly think the ideal situation is to do it without kids. Nothing hit this home for us more than when we first took our kids canoeing in the Boundary Waters of Northern Minnesota. Before kids, my wife and I enjoyed many serene trips to the Boundary Waters. The first time we took our then 3 and 5 y.o. kids, it was like we never left home. It was still fun, but nowhere near as much of a respite for the soul as it was with just the two of us.

And personally, I would prefer to not be faced with the decision between crusing and my marriage. That said, I would be the last person to make any assumptions about others' marriages. That's just my personal view.

As for the boat, no doubt you do not have the luxury as some to jet-set around the globe trying different boats. You'll have to rely on the market you can pursue. We found our boat in Portland, OR through a classified ad in a local Portland free newspaper. Being in MN, I only discovered it through a listing on the internet (before Yachtworld). This was such a logistical challenge for us that the only real 'shakedown' we got to do was motoring from the slip to the lift to have the surveyor look at it. That's right, we bought the boat without ever sailing it. However, I had been drooling over this type for years and trusted the glowing reviews from dozens of owners I had contacted. I consumed every bit of material about these boats that I could, so I was convinced I knew what I was getting into before ever sailing her. In fact, it was almost 4 years after buying her that we first sailed Soñadora. We had chartered a Baba 30 out of Anacortes for 10 days, but I would not recommend the San Juans as a good place for a noob to have a shakedown cruise. Next year it will be 12 years that we've owned her and I feel that we are just now getting started on 'The Dream'.

Just keep doing what your doing. Despite all the drivel, you'll figure it out on your own. No doubts about that!

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Sons,

You were really lucky on the Nanny. We had one good one and three bad ones over the years before we went cruising. The one good one ended up bringing her new husband sailing with us from Samoa to Tonga, the others we hoped we'd never see again. I really didn't mean to blanket all nannies, just the 3/4 of 'em that we had that were really terrible. Probably our fault in not selecting well.

I take your point completely about most folks having to buy what they have nearby. I would just strongly recommend getting some sea time someplace, even if one has to do a "free" delivery as crew. For those of us who've made a boat our home for multiple years, it's a big decision and I simply can't make it without sea time aboard. Clearly, that's a paranoia on my part that Courtney may not share.

We went sailing when the kids were little precisely because they wouldn't know better and wouldn't have established relationships that bound them to the shore. I really don't think it works at all well to try and take kids over the age of 12 out cruising. The folks I've seen doing it seem to end up dealing with the issue of separating the kids from their friends and also dealing with the early teenage years simultaneously. It wasn't a pretty sight to see. I completely agree with you, if the choice is between going as a couple vs going with kids over 12, I'd go as a couple without a doubt.

BV

[Jim in Halifax]

Sons & BV are telling it like it is when it comes to cruising with kids. We had thought about casting off when our two were 5 & 9 (they are now 14 & 19) but then there came another conflicting variable - aging parents. My mother died, leaving my father somewhat in need of some filial support. And my wife's mother is thinking of moving closer for health reasons, so we still don't feel right about casting off just yet. The window of opportunity is constantly opening and closing...I understand what the experienced cruisers mean when they say "Just go!"

[Soñadora]

Sons & BV are telling it like it is when it comes to cruising with kids. We had thought about casting off when our two were 5 & 9 (they are now 14 & 19) but then there came another conflicting variable - aging parents.

That's a big one, Jim. My FIL died this past spring and my MIL has had it pretty tough. It has been challenging for my wife as well since my MIL lives in Finland. There's a lot of family to help, but it's been a huge emotional strain. Not to mention, my wife has 3 of 4 grandparents still around and she is very close to them.

My father is getting up there too...way up there.



BV

yeah, we've witnessed several nightmare scenes other families experienced with Nannies. My wife was very meticulous when choosing a nanny. She actually had relatives visit them before making a decision.

[svgreatwhite]

Sons & BV are telling it like it is when it comes to cruising with kids. We had thought about casting off when our two were 5 & 9 (they are now 14 & 19) but then there came another conflicting variable - aging parents.

That's a big one, Jim. My FIL died this past spring and my MIL has had it pretty tough. It has been challenging for my wife as well since my MIL lives in Finland. There's a lot of family to help, but it's been a huge emotional strain. Not to mention, my wife has 3 of 4 grandparents still around and she is very close to them.

My father is getting up there too...way up there.



BV

yeah, we've witnessed several nightmare scenes other families experienced with Nannies. My wife was very meticulous when choosing a nanny. She actually had relatives visit them before making a decision.

So then you wait until the kids are out of the house. Retire from your jobs and then sail off to the South Pacific. After a few years the kids are married and then grand children start being born. In my friends case, they beat a hasty retreat back to the PNW and put the boat up for sale. There was also some monentary distress from an unplanned medical procedure in Oz, but it was the grand children that ultimatly brought them home.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Sons & BV are telling it like it is when it comes to cruising with kids. We had thought about casting off when our two were 5 & 9 (they are now 14 & 19) but then there came another conflicting variable - aging parents.

That's a big one, Jim. My FIL died this past spring and my MIL has had it pretty tough. It has been challenging for my wife as well since my MIL lives in Finland. There's a lot of family to help, but it's been a huge emotional strain. Not to mention, my wife has 3 of 4 grandparents still around and she is very close to them.

My father is getting up there too...way up there.



BV

yeah, we've witnessed several nightmare scenes other families experienced with Nannies. My wife was very meticulous when choosing a nanny. She actually had relatives visit them before making a decision.

So then you wait until the kids are out of the house. Retire from your jobs and then sail off to the South Pacific. After a few years the kids are married and then grand children start being born. In my friends case, they beat a hasty retreat back to the PNW and put the boat up for sale. There was also some monentary distress from an unplanned medical procedure in Oz, but it was the grand children that ultimatly brought them home.

There are so many things that come between us and our lust for sailing. My parents flew across the Pacific to see their grand children, never once berating me about having pulled them away from them or the cost of all those flights.

We are joyfully encumbered by those we love.

BV

[Whisper]

We went sailing when the kids were little precisely because they wouldn't know better and wouldn't have established relationships that bound them to the shore.

BV

This lends itself to misinterpretation (I hope). I'm sure you didn't sacrifice vital socialization to manipulate (coerce) them to suit your personal (selfish) sailing dream. The lessons learned at sea are very important. But so are the skills learned on the schoolyard. In my opinion, everyone needs the schoolyard experiences. Also, most people can benefit from the at sea experience. Both is best. Most people only get one. Although it's a close call, the schoolyard will probably prepare more kids for our society than sailing the parent's dream.

[Whisper]

I carefully placed the apostrophe in "parent's."

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Whisper,

First, I wrote something rather un-kind here earlier and then deleted it, a first for me - deleting something.

Second, you've no idea what my children did or didn't do during the multi-year cruise I took them on, nor do you have any idea what the results of that trip actually were. However, that didn't slow you down in passing judgement without a single fact to support your opinion. To presume that my children didn't attend school and have what you call the "schoolyard" experience which you tout as "vital" to their socialization is not only a factual error on your part, but more than a little arrogant. They did attend school, just not in the US.

Third, the cruise that my children went on has been cited, repeatedly, by them as having been formative and one of the most influential series of events in their lives. They attribute much of the credit for the resulting academic and business successes and the personal happiness in their lives to their childhood aboard and what they learned in the various countries they visited.

Finally, the entire tone of your post is that of a sanctimonious ass hole (remember I'm being nice here having deleted the nasty post I made earlier). To paraphrase your post's tone and style:

I'm sure you didn't mean to accuse me and the children's mother of damaging our children's lives and intellectual development for some petty personal entertainment like cruising by denying them access to one of life's great educational opportunities - a "schoolyard". I'm sure your clumsy use of the words here in this difficult medium is at fault. That despite it's obviously insulting tone, you're really a nice person and not the pompous ass your use of the English language makes you appear to be in this post.

I carefully placed the world ass right after pompous.

Have a nice day,

BV

[Dale dug a hole]

Not that i read a lot of the above shit, get a room.

But it does get you thinking. hmmm

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Courtney,

Here are a few worth looking at.

The first one HERE is in SF Bay, not too difficult to get to have a look at. At the top of your range. Big enough for kids and husband.

This Columbia 57 looks to be in great shape and would make a nice big family cruiser. It's a Bill Tripp design and sails well, no bad habits.

Here is a S&S IOR battle wagon that has been converted to cruiser - it's local to you. Not my first choice, but strong as hell.

That sort of range could give you a starting point. I'd take the first one based on what I can see on-line.

BV

[Soñadora]

ok, I realize this isn't the 'starter boat' thread, but I couldn't help mentioning this one:

Baba 30 in R.I.

This boat looks like a terrific value. Just sayin'

Trucking to PNW will run you about $6k. You could easily find someone to go check this boat out for you on your behalf. Think, you'd be bringing her home where she belongs

[Mark Morwood]

Beau,

Having made the same decision as you - that is to take our kids out of traditional school to home school them while cruising - I share your emotional reaction to Whisper's comments. I have been happy to see that so far we have rarely seen this sort of reaction, and in fact quite the opposite, including from the kids teachers before we left. They all thought it was a fantastic opportunity for the kids. (Note that we were not running away from a bad school - the kids were in a great public school - that was way above average in all measures for a US school).

I can only assume that Whisper is not very familiar with the now well established alternative to traditional schooling which is homeschooling. Current estimates are about 2 million kids are being homeschooled in the US. Now I am not a fan of all homeschooling, particularly when it is used to "protect" kids from uncomfortable knowledge (like evolution), but in the case of homeschooling while traveling and seeing the world, it is hard to imagine a better experience for building a well rounded education and perspective on life.

There is also a whole pedagogical debate we could have on the educational and social merits of shutting kids up with a gang of kids their own age for most of the day in the alternative reality that is a modern school, rather than having them educated in a broader community of adults and children of all ages, as had been done for most of human history. I'm not saying that I see a better alternative to traditional schooling for society as a whole, but that does not mean that there are not better alternatives available to some of us. My experience has been that on average the cruising kids I have met seem to be doing better on pretty well every measure than the average kids I met back in my children's school. I can't claim a positive cause and effect here, but I think it is at least pretty clear that it isn't a barrier to education and socialization.

This is not to say that homeschooling while cruising is for everyone, but I would advise any parent with school age children who is thinking of going cruising to do whatever they can to make it happen while the kids can still participate. Don't let concerns about your kids education be a blocker unless there are some special challenges for you or your children that mean homeschooling isn't a good option. It's not to say that homeschooling is easy - it takes lots of work - but incredibly rewarding for both parents and children alike.

As background, we cruised for two years pre-kids back in the late 1990's, and once we had the kids, have worked hard to be able to let them have the same experience while they were still with us. We (my wife and I and our twin 11 year old boys) are now in year one of a planned 3 year cruise around the Caribbean and Mediterranean.

Mark.

[blackjenner]

We went sailing when the kids were little precisely because they wouldn't know better and wouldn't have established relationships that bound them to the shore.

BV

This lends itself to misinterpretation (I hope). I'm sure you didn't sacrifice vital socialization to manipulate (coerce) them to suit your personal (selfish) sailing dream. The lessons learned at sea are very important. But so are the skills learned on the schoolyard. In my opinion, everyone needs the schoolyard experiences. Also, most people can benefit from the at sea experience. Both is best. Most people only get one. Although it's a close call, the schoolyard will probably prepare more kids for our society than sailing the parent's dream.

Yes, because school yards are such wonderful melting pots of tolerance, education, socialization, and empathy for your fellow students. I'm not Beau but I found your comments about coercion and selfishness quite presumptive and bordering on insulting.

Really, you might want to consider backing up from demonstrating all the wonder and joy you clearly learned in a school yard. It really shows.

I think one of the best things we can do for children is expose them to as much education, travel, and different environments as we can. One of the hardest things we do to children is shove them into the frequently dysfunctional, cruel and often violent environment that is our school system.

What I see in what Beau writes is that he gave his kids a wonderful opportunity and, apparently, according to him (I believe him by the way), they benefited from it greatly.

Now, why can't you see that?

[miscut jib]

All well and good to argue about the perfect time for children, or your parents or whomever, but the perfect time for the world is now. The sooner the better. Barring some grand doomsday scenario there'll be more people and more development. That perfect tropical moorage sporting a palapa and another cruiser or two now may well in twenty years have a fleet of boats, a luxury hotel and in the developing world a sea of trash if historys a guide.

Probably not perfect in any stretch of the word, but I'd looked at SC 50s and 52s. Mostly because I once delivered pizza to the chicken coop for a party to celebrate completion of a couple's 52 that they were leaving on.

[U20guy2]

Beau,

Having made the same decision as you - that is to take our kids out of traditional school to home school them while cruising - I share your emotional reaction to Whisper's comments. I have been happy to see that so far we have rarely seen this sort of reaction, and in fact quite the opposite, including from the kids teachers before we left. They all thought it was a fantastic opportunity for the kids. (Note that we were not running away from a bad school - the kids were in a great public school - that was way above average in all measures for a US school).

I can only assume that Whisper is not very familiar with the now well established alternative to traditional schooling which is homeschooling. Current estimates are about 2 million kids are being homeschooled in the US. Now I am not a fan of all homeschooling, particularly when it is used to "protect" kids from uncomfortable knowledge (like evolution), but in the case of homeschooling while traveling and seeing the world, it is hard to imagine a better experience for building a well rounded education and perspective on life.

There is also a whole pedagogical debate we could have on the educational and social merits of shutting kids up with a gang of kids their own age for most of the day in the alternative reality that is a modern school, rather than having them educated in a broader community of adults and children of all ages, as had been done for most of human history. I'm not saying that I see a better alternative to traditional schooling for society as a whole, but that does not mean that there are not better alternatives available to some of us. My experience has been that on average the cruising kids I have met seem to be doing better on pretty well every measure than the average kids I met back in my children's school. I can't claim a positive cause and effect here, but I think it is at least pretty clear that it isn't a barrier to education and socialization.

This is not to say that homeschooling while cruising is for everyone, but I would advise any parent with school age children who is thinking of going cruising to do whatever they can to make it happen while the kids can still participate. Don't let concerns about your kids education be a blocker unless there are some special challenges for you or your children that mean homeschooling isn't a good option. It's not to say that homeschooling is easy - it takes lots of work - but incredibly rewarding for both parents and children alike.

As background, we cruised for two years pre-kids back in the late 1990's, and once we had the kids, have worked hard to be able to let them have the same experience while they were still with us. We (my wife and I and our twin 11 year old boys) are now in year one of a planned 3 year cruise around the Caribbean and Mediterranean.

Mark.

Not to be confused with "Home schooled kids who are land based"
A family member was incharge of running the county review process of the "Home Schooled kids"

#1 95% of the people in her county who pulled their kids out of school to home school them did not have college degrees.
#2 90% of the home schooled kids failed to meet the basic GED requirements
#3 98% of the home schooled kids did not perform to the same level as their Public Schooled class mates
#4 over 50% of them were working part time jobs during school hours

ETC ETC ETC.

Why is schooling on cruising boats different? Simple parents are with their kids a much higher number of hours per day. Some might call it trapped on a boat with their kids LOL. Pretty much all of the cruising couples who pull their kids are highly educated and skilled people to start with. The kids them selves have plenty of time to study and the number of distractions they have is greatly reduced. Not to mention you have real world application of key skills - Science - Math - Languages etc that are often critical to their direct level of comfort be it weather - food - navigation - or helping parents track down critical boat gear in strange ports etc. As I said very different than home schooling for dirt based kids.

A 10yr old who has spent a year or two or three cruising the world can sit down at a dinner table and school the adults on navigation - math - stars and even languages, or cultures of various countries or regions and share stories that a 10yr old who has grown up on land can't even begin to grasp let alone even apply the simplest math concepts used in Navigation.
As I said when your life is directly impacted by such things it becomes far more relevant.

[kdh]

ok, I realize this isn't the 'starter boat' thread, but I couldn't help mentioning this one:

Baba 30 in R.I.

This boat looks like a terrific value. Just sayin'

Trucking to PNW will run you about $6k. You could easily find someone to go check this boat out for you on your behalf. Think, you'd be bringing her home where she belongs

I know this boat. Once talked to the owners as they were redoing the cetol. I wonder what happened. I hate when brokerage boats seem like there's a broken dream behind a decision to sell.



There's a fulfilled dream behind this offered boat.

[blackjenner]

Beau,

Having made the same decision as you - that is to take our kids out of traditional school to home school them while cruising - I share your emotional reaction to Whisper's comments. I have been happy to see that so far we have rarely seen this sort of reaction, and in fact quite the opposite, including from the kids teachers before we left. They all thought it was a fantastic opportunity for the kids. (Note that we were not running away from a bad school - the kids were in a great public school - that was way above average in all measures for a US school).

I can only assume that Whisper is not very familiar with the now well established alternative to traditional schooling which is homeschooling. Current estimates are about 2 million kids are being homeschooled in the US. Now I am not a fan of all homeschooling, particularly when it is used to "protect" kids from uncomfortable knowledge (like evolution), but in the case of homeschooling while traveling and seeing the world, it is hard to imagine a better experience for building a well rounded education and perspective on life.

There is also a whole pedagogical debate we could have on the educational and social merits of shutting kids up with a gang of kids their own age for most of the day in the alternative reality that is a modern school, rather than having them educated in a broader community of adults and children of all ages, as had been done for most of human history. I'm not saying that I see a better alternative to traditional schooling for society as a whole, but that does not mean that there are not better alternatives available to some of us. My experience has been that on average the cruising kids I have met seem to be doing better on pretty well every measure than the average kids I met back in my children's school. I can't claim a positive cause and effect here, but I think it is at least pretty clear that it isn't a barrier to education and socialization.

This is not to say that homeschooling while cruising is for everyone, but I would advise any parent with school age children who is thinking of going cruising to do whatever they can to make it happen while the kids can still participate. Don't let concerns about your kids education be a blocker unless there are some special challenges for you or your children that mean homeschooling isn't a good option. It's not to say that homeschooling is easy - it takes lots of work - but incredibly rewarding for both parents and children alike.

As background, we cruised for two years pre-kids back in the late 1990's, and once we had the kids, have worked hard to be able to let them have the same experience while they were still with us. We (my wife and I and our twin 11 year old boys) are now in year one of a planned 3 year cruise around the Caribbean and Mediterranean.

Mark.

Not to be confused with "Home schooled kids who are land based"
A family member was incharge of running the county review process of the "Home Schooled kids"

#1 95% of the people in her county who pulled their kids out of school to home school them did not have college degrees.
#2 90% of the home schooled kids failed to meet the basic GED requirements
#3 98% of the home schooled kids did not perform to the same level as their Public Schooled class mates
#4 over 50% of them were working part time jobs during school hours

ETC ETC ETC.

Why is schooling on cruising boats different? Simple parents are with their kids a much higher number of hours per day. Some might call it trapped on a boat with their kids LOL. Pretty much all of the cruising couples who pull their kids are highly educated and skilled people to start with. The kids them selves have plenty of time to study and the number of distractions they have is greatly reduced. Not to mention you have real world application of key skills - Science - Math - Languages etc that are often critical to their direct level of comfort be it weather - food - navigation - or helping parents track down critical boat gear in strange ports etc. As I said very different than home schooling for dirt based kids.

A 10yr old who has spent a year or two or three cruising the world can sit down at a dinner table and school the adults on navigation - math - stars and even languages, or cultures of various countries or regions and share stories that a 10yr old who has grown up on land can't even begin to grasp let alone even apply the simplest math concepts used in Navigation.
As I said when your life is directly impacted by such things it becomes far more relevant.

Well said. The issue I see with land based home schooling is that some of the parents that try it are not qualified to teach and are keeping their kids out of school for the wrong reasons. That does not mean that home schooling is, in an of itself, a bad thing. And while socialization is important, you don't have to be in a school yard to get it. If your parents are actively participating in your life, if they involve you in opportunities with other people/kids, you will turn out just fine.

[Joli]

Life decisions are simply part of living, who's to say what's right or wrong?

Should a father take a job that has him travelling 200+ days a year?
Should a mother work and send the kids to day care?
Should the kids attend a public or private school?
Should the family go cruising for a few years?

Criticizing parenting skills or a families decisions is like calling someone’s wife ugly or kids stupid, chances are if you do it face to face you'll get a punch in the nose. Lotta questions can be asked but unless you're wearing a crown of thorns answers are elusive.

PS. We took a lot of grief for sending our daughter abroad, at her request, to study but now she's fluent in French, Mandarin, Arabic, and ok in Italian. She graduated Summa Cum Laude with honors in two majors, she scored in the top 1% on her LSAT and was offered a full ride at William and Mary and Arizona State for law. And she's a normal, happy well-adjusted kid with a great future. To all the naysayers who believe that the only route for children is a home in suburbia, well, they're simply wrong.

We're all different, that's why they print wallpaper.

[Joli]

My sister home schooled two kids. One is now an accountant, OSU grad and the other is an RN. They're doing just fine.

[Bob Perry]

When I was in junior high I was sailing the seven seas in a beautiful schooner in my mind.
I kept a log book. I'd write in it every night. I recorded my day's run on a big map I had on the wall. I set a lot of records in that schooner of the mind.

I wish I had the kind of parents who would have taken me world cruising.
But I didn't and that is that.

Beau, your kids are very lucky. You did good. I can think of no finer school than a sailboat on the ocean with caring parenets.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

...snip...

#1 95% of the people in her county who pulled their kids out of school to home school them did not have college degrees.
#2 90% of the home schooled kids failed to meet the basic GED requirements
#3 98% of the home schooled kids did not perform to the same level as their Public Schooled class mates
#4 over 50% of them were working part time jobs during school hours

...snip...

This is great data, and fits my personal experience with "home schooled" kids here in California. So, I guess because it fits with my personal experience it must be correct.

In any event, I think that the BlackJenner has it about right (in my personal opinion) when he says that many parents aren't qualified to teach and that they may be pulling their kids out of school for religious reasons. However, it is also interesting to read about why the various parts of the US started to insist on "public" and "mandatory" education here. While part of the motivation for compulsory education was to raise skills and literacy, it is also clear that a big part of it was to inculcate the population (particularly children of recent emigrants) with the values and mores of the newly formed colonies.

Now, we find various folks who wish to sort of "check out" of the educational system for various reasons. Some, because they can afford the very best private educations, some because they disagree with the topics being taught (primarily religious), and some because they fear for the safety of their children. This last one is a very rational view in some school districts - like the one I went through in Los Angeles. Sailors going cruising are NOT part of any of these groups, in my experience. Rather, they have a grand plan for their family and serving as educator is a part of their duties that they take quite seriously. I know my x-wife and I did.

I won't list my children's accomplishments except to provide a few simple facts. When we returned from cruising they were enrolled in the best schools money could by and did superbly, well beyond their years. They have continued to perform at the top of their classes through graduate school and now within the business community. Further bragging about my wonderful kids will only prove I'm a dedicated and highly biased parent, just as I should be.

Courtney did ask us, the assembled rabble, for suggestions on a dream boat and we've provided a lot of stuff she never asked for.... typical of us all. That's why I posted the list of three boat that were within her price range and might haul a family of six around. I'd love to return to that topic and will, henceforth, stop talking about the other interpersonal stuff.

BV

[Steam Flyer]

...snip...

#1 95% of the people in her county who pulled their kids out of school to home school them did not have college degrees.
#2 90% of the home schooled kids failed to meet the basic GED requirements
#3 98% of the home schooled kids did not perform to the same level as their Public Schooled class mates
#4 over 50% of them were working part time jobs during school hours

...snip...

This is great data, and fits my personal experience with "home schooled" kids here in California. So, I guess because it fits with my personal experience it must be correct.

... ...

Second that. Most 'home-school' families I have been associated with are determined above all else to make sure their kids grow up with the same skewed sense of being among God's elected without having to bathe as often.

And abou public education in the U.S.... the Founding Fathers had seen the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution and knew that a higher average level of schooling would lead to a higher level of prosperity. Didn't do a bad job, all things considered. And the land grant (ie state) colleges were intended to train military officers, which in the new industrial/technological world needed to know enough science & math to be able handle ballistics & explosives chemistry.

... ...
Courtney did ask us, the assembled rabble, for suggestions on a dream boat and we've provided a lot of stuff she never asked for.... typical of us all. That's why I posted the list of three boat that were within her price range and might haul a family of six around. I'd love to return to that topic and will, henceforth, stop talking about the other interpersonal stuff.

Why? If she wants to know, she can start another thread


This may be one of the times when a charter boat may fit the bill. With several kids of different ages, multiple private cabins and more than one head could make life happier... usually I think having 2 heads on a boat is a stupid waste of space & maintenance effort.

Link to Yachtworld "Alfa 51"

4 cabins and heads may be a bit much, but it's not much work to pull out one or two... think of the stowage...

I've also liked the Dynamique range... well built, sail decently... Here's a couple of their 44s ... link 1.... link 2

FB- Doug

[Paps]

Where's my knitting??

[Soñadora]

This is Paps. He knits.

HTFU Paps.

[Bob Perry]

Ha!

[blackjenner]

Where's my knitting??

[Bob Perry]

Here's my grumpy little viking.

Attached Files

•  Violet the grumpy Viking.jpg   176.51K   29 downloads

[Ishmael]

Here's my grumpy little viking.

She looks very valiant. All she needs is a broadsword. Violett Bobsgrandottir.

[floating dutchman]

And here was me concerned that not doing homework with my boy on a wenesday night because we were to busy sailing the boat around some cans was a bad thing.

[Paps]

This is Paps. He knits.

HTFU Paps.

Nice one Sons!

This is Cruising Nanarchy, they can turn a whimsical thread about dream boats into a slanging match about mini vans, kids and the US public school system.

HTFU Cruising Nanarchy!

[floating dutchman]

This is Paps. He knits.

HTFU Paps.

Nice one Sons!

This is Cruising Nanarchy, they can turn a whimsical thread about dream boats into a slanging match about mini vans, kids and the US public school system.

HTFU Cruising Nanarchy!

First World Problems
Some folk just need a full cup with a lid



So they can shut the full cup.

[Chris King]

Hi,

A while ago my wife and I decided we wanted to take the kids cruising and we wanted to do it before the kids turned into teenagers. I didn't think I could put my career on hold for too long so we wanted to go for a season. We are in the SF bay area. The sailing season to the south didn't jive with the kids school year so we choose the PNW. The kids were 8 & 12. I took a leave of absence from work and the day after the kids got out of school they flew to Seattle. I was there a couple of weeks ahead of time to prep the boat. We sailed until 4 days before the kids were due back in school. A little over 10 weeks all together.

We bought a boat specifically for this trip, an Alden 44. While it doesn't have nearly as much space as a modern production 44 footer it have some nice features. It has an aft cabin with two pilot berths, one for each kid. There is no way the kids would have shared a double. It has a somewhat strange extra companion way with its own little dodger. The kids favorite place to hang out was on the top step of that companion way in the dodger.

I think this trip had a huge formative impact on the kids.

Chris

[blackjenner]

And here was me concerned that not doing homework with my boy on a wenesday night because we were to busy sailing the boat around some cans was a bad thing.

Best Dad Evah!

[Whits End]

http://www.yachtworl...411863/Honduras

This should have enough room for the family.