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TC627

giant weta?

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#1 eric e

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

apparently first boat being built in thailand now

doesn't seem to be mentioned on the purported designers website

http://www.tcdesign....gn/Welcome.html

or the builders???

http://www.andamanboatyard.com/
Posted Image



Attached File  tctri1.jpg   98.85K   57 downloads

drawings show a boom, but not a traveller yet

2 drawings show dagger in the hull

another drawing shows daggers in the floats

can you help vaka???

Attached Files



#2 green boat

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:56 PM

At first clance it looks like a seacart

#3 eric e

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

At first clance it looks like a seacart


yes it does, without the curved foils and seeing as the 5 ft longer SC26 starts at US$124,300 1 x SC26 124 300
http://seacart26.com/pricing/

Posted Image

US$50-70k for a TC627 looks about right unfortunately

#4 Doug Lord

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

apparently first boat being built in thailand now

doesn't seem to be mentioned on the purported designers website

http://www.tcdesign....gn/Welcome.html

or the builders???

http://www.andamanboatyard.com/




Attached File  tctri1.jpg   98.85K   57 downloads

drawings show a boom, but not a traveller yet

2 drawings show dagger in the hull

another drawing shows daggers in the floats

can you help vaka???

=================
In the Weta thread the guy that first mentioned this boat says it was designed to fly the main hull and sail on the ama BUT if you look at the drawings in your post there is no cant angle to the amas and so if it were to fly the main hull the effective waterline beam of the ama would be greater than it should be? You can see the cant angle in the SC 26 amas....

#5 Vaka

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:57 PM

apparently first boat being built in thailand now

doesn't seem to be mentioned on the purported designers website

http://www.tcdesign....gn/Welcome.html

or the builders???

http://www.andamanboatyard.com/
Posted Image



Attached File  tctri1.jpg   98.85K   57 downloads

drawings show a boom, but not a traveller yet

2 drawings show dagger in the hull

another drawing shows daggers in the floats

can you help vaka???


What you are seeing is the rudder blades on the ama.

#6 eric e

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:17 AM

What you are seeing is the rudder blades on the ama.


ok

#7 Vaka

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:51 AM

I wouldn't expect the TC627 to cost more than three time the cost of a Weta as a rule of thumb which would price it under 40k and I think probably mid 30s. The design like the Weta has been kept simple by the look of it. That keeps the cost down.

#8 Vaka

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:25 AM

More picture

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#9 Doug Lord

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:07 AM

Wonder why there is no ama cant?

#10 eric e

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:57 AM

any pics of the boat in build?

maybe we can guess about rudder linkages, travellers, block positions and ama folding and locking mechanisms from those

#11 RedTuna

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

Would be nice if maybe TC would jump in with some details. I can't find much of anything on his website or even the web.

It's great that Vaka has so much inside info or mad search skills.

#12 Speng

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:09 PM

Is that a centerboard slot I see? I somehow doubt one of these would cost a similar amount of money as a 6.5m sportboat so I would think a tad more than 40k although I guess it depends where it's built.

#13 bhyde

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

Is that a centerboard slot I see? I somehow doubt one of these would cost a similar amount of money as a 6.5m sportboat so I would think a tad more than 40k although I guess it depends where it's built.

I can easily see this boat costing just under $50K US ready to sail. If the Searail 19 is in the $30K range, then a 21' tri with a full carbon rig and a real set of sails is definitely north of $40K. Add a few options like a trailer and covers, and you're in sportboat territory pretty quick. Not a bad value if the boat is good quality.

Still wish someone would build a high performance 18-19', double trap tri with some real power. Something that could stay with or beat the F-18s.

#14 unShirley

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:22 PM

[Still wish someone would build a high performance 18-19', double trap tri with some real power. Something that could stay with or beat the F-18s.


Spit in one hand.....

#15 munt

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:41 PM

if you want to double trap and be as fast as an f-18...
then go buy an f-18!

one of the best reasons to have a small tri is NOT to trap out. And if you find some way to make 3 hulls and structure lighter than 2 then you have defied the basic laws of physics, sir. Your Nobel prize awaits.

#16 jetboy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

I am a bit confused by the design. Why would you put a daggerboard in the center hull but add the complexity of using rudders on the outer hulls? If you're not going to fly the center hull beyond what he dagger board will handle, you should be able to use a single rudder on the main hull as well. And that's a lot simpler and less expensive to build.

#17 bhyde

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:30 PM

if you want to double trap and be as fast as an f-18...
then go buy an f-18!

one of the best reasons to have a small tri is NOT to trap out. And if you find some way to make 3 hulls and structure lighter than 2 then you have defied the basic laws of physics, sir. Your Nobel prize awaits.


Was thinking of getting an f-18 until I sailed one (Wild Cat). Take 100lbs out of the boat and we'll talk. Great boat and a great fleet, but I would love to see a version that has a carbon mast, carbon beams, and lighter everything. Cost, of course, is the real issue and completely understandable. Until then my A-Cat is fine.

And one of the best reasons to built a tri is righting moment. Tris have a lot of it, and can therefore carry a lot more power. Double trapping with and extra 350-400lbs off the ama only makes it better. A 18-19' tri that is about 13-15' wide would be crazy fun with the right amount of sail. I'm talking about I14, 18-skiff, 49er on the edge type sailing, not toddling around with the kids. I'll pick up the boat and my Noble Prize shortly after hell freezes over.

#18 Doug Lord

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:54 PM

Here are some notes comparing an 18' tri with minimal amas to an F18. The numbers tell the story-if you know the language and take the time: (from a two year? old thread on another forum)
===========

The technical aspects of the boat show a high probability that the tri would be faster than the F18, would be able to sail in the same pressure as an F18 with one or two crew, and would do this while allowing the tri's crew to sit on the side of a center cockpit very comfortably:
--the main hull on such a boat would be physically much smaller than the Magnum 18-with perhaps 20% less weight,
--the rig with 50 sq.ft.(277 all up-1' higher CE) more upwind SA(121 sq.ft. more downwind) than an F 18 would insure the power required to be faster than an F18
-- using carbon tubes for the cross arms would assure the strength and light weight required for a 16' beam vs the Magnums 14'.
--Righting Moment: Max RM for the tri with two 175lb crew sitting on the side of a center cockpit would be 6700ft.lb. which means it could carry the 277 sq.ft. of sail(1' higher CE than an F18) in about the same pressure that an F18 can with two 175 pounders on trapezes (1.5lb./sq.ft. pressure). But while the F18 requires two 175lb crew to sail in this kind of pressure the tri would not. In fact, it could be sailed with a single crew in that pressure with the contribution from the mainfoil of 218.75lb. of downforce. The mainfoil, in concert with the rudder foil,(both on the main hull)act to control pitch and can be used to maintain the sailing angle of the boat with the main hull flying thru a significant variation in crew weight. The mainfoil would not be much larger than a Moth foil( 1.1=Moth; 1.4 sq.ft. tri). The F18 has 4 foils-the tri main hull four, as well, except that two of them are very small-about half an F18 foil-and lift vertically up or down. Learning from the F18 Capricorn(and other race boats) the tri would have a gybing daggerboard assuring excellent windward performance.
-- Ama- the key to the design is that the main hull flys almost all the time. At max RM the ama must support 750lb.(boat weight+ 350lb of crew weight,or approx. 175lb crew +175lb main foil download). The ama could be a single rotating hull that would allow a displacement hull or a stepped planing hull as the case may be. Very experimental.
OR: the ama could be a high L/B design incorporating a retractable foil with 1.4 sq.ft. of area in each ama. This would allow the ama foil to carry 70% of the boats weight(same % as an ORMA tri) using a proven foil system(DSS) that works somewhat differently than a "typical" curved foil: it develops no lateral resistance as a by-product so that 100% of its area is dedicated to vertical lift making it much more efficient than a curved foil. The least expensive of these two options may be the stepped planing hull but that still has to be proven. The DSS foil is proven....
OR: a retractable curved foil.
====================
If you look at the Magnum as a rough guide only and keep in mind that we're just looking to be in the ballpark with pricing it is faily exciting-and accurate- to consider a tri such as this at + or minus, say $2000.
If you look at the technical aspects it is undeniable that the tri would beat the cat-and that's with one hand tied behind its back! The crew of the tri sits on the side of a center cockpit while to sail in the same pressure(1.5lb.sq.ft-max design pressure for the F18) the F18 requires two crew on trapezes. Not only that but the tri can be sailed in the same pressure that an F18 requires two 175lb people on trapezes-singlehanded! More power ,more speed, much more comfort, much easier to sail fast-the tri could be a tremendous addition to "beach sailing" multihulls and the first of its kind.
Yes it can!
NOTE: please see the SA/WS ratios for these two boats. They tell the story better than almost anything else showing that the tri has much less drag for its power than does the F18. And remember, this tri is not using all the power that the configuration allows-it is designed to be faster than an F19 AND extremely comfortable and much easier to sail.
=====================
F18
Specifications:
Length: 17' 11" / 5.46 m
Beam: 8' 6" / 2.59
Draft w/Rudder Up: 7.1" / 0.18
Mast Length: 29' 6" / 8.99
Sail Area:
227 sq.ft. upwind SA
454 ft2 / 42 m2 downwind SA
SA/WS:
--two hulls in water- 4.77/1
-- single hull in water- 6.03/1

Bruce Number: 1.66
SA/D: 44.16
W/SA: 3.29
Weight (with spinnaker): 397 lbs / 180 kg
Price as of 6/21/10= $22,500 including everything except trailer
---------------------------------------------------
18 Tri
Specifications:
Length: 18' / 5.49m
Beam: 16' / 4.88m
Draft w/Rudder Up: 6.4"
Mast Length: 31.5' / 9.6m
Sail Area:
277 sq.ft. upwind SA
575 ft2 / 53.4 m2 downwind SA
SA/WS:
-- not flying-5.73/1
-- flying main hull-10.26/1

Bruce Number: 1.83
SA/D: 53.89
W/SA: 2.71
Weight (with spinnaker): 400 lbs / 181.9 kg
Hull Construction: Fiberglass/Foam Sandwich and some carbon/foam sandwich
Price estimate-$22,500-24,500
(Note: Magnum 18=$19,235)
(Note: skin area and volume of tri ama about 1/3rd that of an F18 hull!)
-------------
Ama foil area corrected 6/22/10
SA/WS added 6/23/10 [/COLOR][/I]
.......
=====================
Note: the key to understanding this is to realize that the tri works like no other tri currently in existence utilizing two lifting foils on the main hull augmented by a wide beam and and VERY SMALL ama using either a small lifting foil or a planing surface-or maybe both in certain conditions. The two foils allow the mainhull to fly long before a conventional tri this small and this wide would. The two foils,and this is real important, unload the faster the boat goes! The pitch control is greater than almost any equivalent length multihull. This is a "daysailing" version of the concept since an all out racing machine could be considerably more powerful(and expensive).
This was done to show the potential of new thinking that allows the full attributes of a trimaran to be used more effectively than they have been to date in "conventional" small trimaran designs under 20' or so.

#19 unShirley

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:05 PM

Drat....foiled again

#20 bhyde

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:12 PM

Somewhere after "Here are some notes..." I glazed over. What happened?

#21 Multihauler

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

Somewhere after "Here are some notes..." I glazed over. What happened?

Paging bhyde,.........paging mr. bhyde.


I don't know of an easy way to tell you this, so I am just going to come out and say it.


It's about Hostess.......................

They're gone dude...........they're all gone!!!



First it Mothers Cookies, and now this.

Oh the humanity!!!



Now, back to your regularly scheduled main hull flying, double trapped, foiling(tin?) trimaran discussion.

-MH

#22 bhyde

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

I simply cannot live in a world without Hostess. If there is a just and merciful God, then the worker's union and Hostess will work out their differences and return the universe to something we can all be proud to live in.

Can you imagine crashing a tri with a double-trap? Talk about getting launched. You could end up in another zip code.

#23 Doug Lord

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:50 PM


if you want to double trap and be as fast as an f-18...
then go buy an f-18!

one of the best reasons to have a small tri is NOT to trap out. And if you find some way to make 3 hulls and structure lighter than 2 then you have defied the basic laws of physics, sir. Your Nobel prize awaits.


Was thinking of getting an f-18 until I sailed one (Wild Cat). Take 100lbs out of the boat and we'll talk. Great boat and a great fleet, but I would love to see a version that has a carbon mast, carbon beams, and lighter everything. Cost, of course, is the real issue and completely understandable. Until then my A-Cat is fine.

And one of the best reasons to built a tri is righting moment. Tris have a lot of it, and can therefore carry a lot more power. Double trapping with and extra 350-400lbs off the ama only makes it better. A 18-19' tri that is about 13-15' wide would be crazy fun with the right amount of sail. I'm talking about I14, 18-skiff, 49er on the edge type sailing, not toddling around with the kids. I'll pick up the boat and my Noble Prize shortly after hell freezes over.

----------------------------
I posted all that (with the important stuff highlighted) just to illustrate that you could have a beachcat killing tri without having to have two guys on a trapeze. A 16' wide 18' trimaran with one or two people sitting comfortably in a center cockpit has the RM to carry much more sail than an F18 in the same pressure. The Sail Area/ wetted surface ratio is much better for the tri flying the main hull.
The amas are small so you can ,in essence, build two for the price of one cat hull.
-----
There is bad news: the RM of the tri is so great that without doing something about that it would not fly the main hull until 15-18 knots of wind.
But, if you use two foils that are designed to fly the main hull at 6-7 knots boat speed the whole thing becomes practical speed and fun wise. Basically, the main foil begins to unload as soon as the main hull is up and more and more load is carried by the ama and ama foil. Extreme pitch control is then the sole function of the main hull foils and drag is drastically reduced.

#24 AdventureTri

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:58 PM

What kind of foils would you use on the main hull, and where would you position them?

#25 Doug Lord

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:09 PM

What kind of foils would you use on the main hull, and where would you position them?

-------------------------
I would put the daggerboard a bit further forward than "normal" and put the main foil/wand there. I'd probably have a retractable gantry and put the second foil on the bottom of the rudder. The important thing to realise is that these foils only lift the boat in relatively light air and then unload.
The pictures below are a model of a 12' version of this concept. The amas shown are planing amas-very much experimental. For an 18 footer I'd use a "normal" displacement ama with a curved lifting foil. Gantry retracts.

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#26 bhyde

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:31 PM

No, you missed the point. What I was thinking of was a tri that...that had enough...some...built using a...oh never mind.

#27 Doug Lord

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:39 PM

Oh yeah-I get it-geez, I'm sorry.

#28 eric e

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:21 AM

at least a week old pic of the boat, the thread is about, TC627, in build

mast is behind it and still wrapped

so once they get the boards and sails they should go sailing right?

pic from other forum where vaka posted it

http://www.boatdesig...nghy-30819.html

vaka sails with TC, goes to VPLP, Lauriot-Prévost presentations, has all this detail and even says the us$50,000fob price is negotiable...

is vaka Tim?

Posted Image

#29 Doug Lord

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:34 AM

Its a damn good looking boat but I don't understand no ama foils and no ama cant. Vaka must at least know Tim Clissold,right Vaka?

#30 bhyde

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:32 PM

Love the looks of the boat and really hope to see it in the water soon. Pretty high bad-ass factor.

Have to agree with Doug on this one. Not sure the motivation for ama rudders with a vaka daggerboard. Seems like it should be one or the other. Think I would prefer a more conservative center hull dagger/rudder combo and leave the ama foils/rudders for the "R" version. At around $50K US I could see this being a nice package that fits into the sportboat size range. Of course that's what I said about the M23, which didn't do so well, so what do I know.

Any idea how the folding mechanism works? I see from the drawings it looks like the amas fold upward at the hinge on the top of each ama. How is it held down? Pin through a bottom hinge?

#31 Doug Lord

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:30 PM

Love the looks of the boat and really hope to see it in the water soon. Pretty high bad-ass factor.

Have to agree with Doug on this one. Not sure the motivation for ama rudders with a vaka daggerboard. Seems like it should be one or the other. Think I would prefer a more conservative center hull dagger/rudder combo and leave the ama foils/rudders for the "R" version. At around $50K US I could see this being a nice package that fits into the sportboat size range. Of course that's what I said about the M23, which didn't do so well, so what do I know.

Any idea how the folding mechanism works? I see from the drawings it looks like the amas fold upward at the hinge on the top of each ama. How is it held down? Pin through a bottom hinge?

--------------------------
On my 18(waiting to be built) the hinge is a flat SS hinge to be isolated from the carbon tube and the carbon holding it to each side of the tube joint. The main tube has a 2' carbon ferrule inside attached to a 4' carbon pushrod that allows the ferrule to slide out of the way when folding. Eric Sponberg suggested I use a rugged latch(similar to a hyfield lever but smaller) on the bottom of the joint to insure there is no movement between the outboard and inboard main tubes.

#32 munt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:04 PM

what I've noted when racing my m23 against beachcats (yes, it has happened) is the obvious, but heretofore unmentioned, difference; notably that the beachcat crew is movable ballast and as long as they are skilled and use that to their advantage it will always factor in their favor. But lots of movement is required to go fast and therefore a young athlete's game. Whereas a lazy olde blob such as myself, though I do occassionally move my lard to and fro, there are relatively few times when I will be able to get my boat sailing on one hull. So even if the weight was to somehow (in spite of the laws of physics) be equal, I would still give the advantage to the cat in most conditions. If you could build a cat with the complexity and refinements of Sir Lord's model it would, by definition, be lighter than the tri, narrower too and most likely faster as crew weight would again be much more adjustable relative to the tri. If this is not convoluted enough then reread Sir Lord's posting to uncross and recross your neurons and synapses.
BTW, the nice looking little tri looks very similiar to my m23 and a folding design that Mike Leneman was working on. Hope they sell a million of em.

#33 Doug Lord

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:52 PM

what I've noted when racing my m23 against beachcats (yes, it has happened) is the obvious, but heretofore unmentioned, difference; notably that the beachcat crew is movable ballast and as long as they are skilled and use that to their advantage it will always factor in their favor. But lots of movement is required to go fast and therefore a young athlete's game. Whereas a lazy olde blob such as myself, though I do occassionally move my lard to and fro, there are relatively few times when I will be able to get my boat sailing on one hull. So even if the weight was to somehow (in spite of the laws of physics) be equal, I would still give the advantage to the cat in most conditions. If you could build a cat with the complexity and refinements of Sir Lord's model it would, by definition, be lighter than the tri, narrower too and most likely faster as crew weight would again be much more adjustable relative to the tri. If this is not convoluted enough then reread Sir Lord's posting to uncross and recross your neurons and synapses.
BTW, the nice looking little tri looks very similiar to my m23 and a folding design that Mike Leneman was working on. Hope they sell a million of em.

-------------------
Munt, you must be referring to someone else(Sir Lord?)-I was NOT talking about building a cat-I was talking(in detail-I'm so sorry- the detail must have confused you) about a beachcat killing tri that would fly the main hull in light air and weigh about the same as an F18.
A real high performance tri under 20' (post 18) seems to be uncharted territory probably because of myths about flying the main hull and "extra weight" with the third hull. Too bad.
--
I read your post again-still don't understand your comments......

#34 Multihauler

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:02 PM

Any idea how the folding mechanism works? I see from the drawings it looks like the amas fold upward at the hinge on the top of each ama. How is it held down? Pin through a bottom hinge?


Water-stays???

ps. I hate water-stays.

-MH

#35 bhyde

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

Water-stays???

ps. I hate water-stays.

-MH

Wow, that would be a buzzkill...

#36 Vaka

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:33 PM

Vaka definitely isn't Clissold. Having sailed in Auckland for fifty years you do get to know a lot of people and of course having an interest in multihulls I know the New Zealand multihull people in particular. As for meeting VPLP’s Lauriot-Provost, when a yacht club near you sends out and invitation to come and meet the guy and talk about whats going on at VPLP you would be a fool not to go, right? In the same way I have met James Warram, Ian Farrier, Derrick Kelsall, Peter Blake, Ron Given, Malcolm Tennant, Tim Clissold etc etc.

One last photo.

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#37 Doug Lord

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

Vaka definitely isn't Clissold. Having sailed in Auckland for fifty years you do get to know a lot of people and of course having an interest in multihulls I know the New Zealand multihull people in particular. As for meeting VPLP’s Lauriot-Provost, when a yacht club near you sends out and invitation to come and meet the guy and talk about whats going on at VPLP you would be a fool not to go, right? In the same way I have met James Warram, Ian Farrier, Derrick Kelsall, Peter Blake, Ron Given, Malcolm Tennant, Tim Clissold etc etc.

One last photo.

===================
Can you get any input from Tim on why no ama foils and why no ama cant? I'd love to get some insight as to his philosophy of design about this boat.

#38 munt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:59 PM

Sir Lord, You will never convince me that a tri can be lighter than a cat since, according to my most highest mathematical renderings, 2 is always less than 3. Of course you could build a tri lighter than most cats but you could never win a lightness contest, especially since not only do you have to build an extra hull but extra structure as well. I would also conjecture that a tri that flies the main hull in very light air loses its stability advantage as the breeze builds, so what was the point of that 3rd hull if you have to sail it like a cat anyway..? So you add foils, why not just add them to a cat? I truly believe it would be very difficult indeed to build a 20 foot tri that could consistently beat a Nacra Carbon 20 sailed by expert athletes, especially in real world ocean conditions where anything underbuilt or poorly engineered would be fodder.

#39 Doug Lord

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

Sir Lord, You will never convince me that a tri can be lighter than a cat since, according to my most highest mathematical renderings, 2 is always less than 3. Of course you could build a tri lighter than most cats but you could never win a lightness contest, especially since not only do you have to build an extra hull but extra structure as well. I would also conjecture that a tri that flies the main hull in very light air loses its stability advantage as the breeze builds, so what was the point of that 3rd hull if you have to sail it like a cat anyway..? So you add foils, why not just add them to a cat? I truly believe it would be very difficult indeed to build a 20 foot tri that could consistently beat a Nacra Carbon 20 sailed by expert athletes, especially in real world ocean conditions where anything underbuilt or poorly engineered would be fodder.

=
==================
History might help you: the Gougeons built a C Class tri in about 1969 that weighed the same or less as the C Class cats and whuped them all.
----
I know there was a lot to read but it's unfortunate you didn't give it a try. You see, the tri uses a foil on the daggerboard and one on the rudder like a Moth and those foils lift the main hull in very light air. But as soon as the main hull is lifted and speed increases, the main foil unloads and the ama+ foil loads up until at "X" speed there is very little to no load on the main foil and the whole load is on the ama+ foil. Because at this point the main foils are unloaded they develop no induced drag and are simply there to maintain the ride angle of the ama by controlling pitch. All of this is automatic and allows a designer to use a very wide beam trimaran design that would not fly the main hull until it was blowing 20+ but because of the foils the main hull takes off very early -before it would because of sail force. As the sail force increases the boat would want to heel but the wand on the mainfoil keeps the boat at a designed angle of heel and allows the lift force of the foils to be replaced by the heeling force of the rig-very simple,automatic and extremely powerful, especially when you understand it. The system allows for a tri with very small amas and wide beam to be fun to sail in the lightest wind to the strongest wind.

#40 munt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:33 PM

Good sir,
All your "automatic" and "simple" might not hold up so well in the ocean. For example, just yesterday, on my m23 with a very, very good guy driving and me just up on the weather ama laughing like a village idiot, we were almost always involved in 2 different waves or a combination of wave/trough/crest with one or 2 hulls fully or partially engaged. The driver being a 2 time national champion in beachcats meant that we were having an enormous amount of fun whereas I believe anyone thinking that their boat would automatically adjust to those wild variations in angle of attack, pitch, apparent wind etc. would at some point experience a very sad letdown. Look at how hard the moth guys have to work to keep foiling all the time, and you think you can get 3 hulls to do that in all wind and wave conditions "simply" and "automatically?" At this juncture I must ask you to "prove it" and not just on a model or a lake. Look at the brutality of Hydroptere and how it is most certainly a very slow vessel in light air. That is an ocean boat and if you have the wherewithall to outdesign, outbuild and outsail those dudes then you will join my personal pantheon of heroes (which does include the Gougeons). Build it, prove it and produce it and I will be the first in line to buy it.

unless it has waterstays, then, forget about it...

#41 Doug Lord

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

The boat in the picture below is a 40' ocean going trimaran foiler. Have you ever sailed a Rave or Hobie Trifoiler? Too bad-makes explaining this more difficult especially since I'm faced with your reticence to read. Oh, well: the boat in the picture uses dual independent wands each controlling a flap on a foil on either side of the boat.
When the boat takes off ,the windward and leeward foil are both lifting vertically up-got it?
Then the faster the boat goes the more it wants to heel over so the wands on both sides move:
1) the lee side wand lowers the mainfoil flap to increase lift,
2) the windward wand raises the mainfoil flap so there is less lift until lift from the windward foil is reduced to zero-but it doesn't stop there: as the boat goes faster the wand moves the windward foil flap up so that now the windward foil is........pulling the windward ama DOWN.
And all this happens automatically, in the ocean, in waves, got it ?
Same princible on the tri........

Picture: Bradfield 40 "Skat"--

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#42 Samin

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:09 AM

===================
Can you get any input from Tim on why no ama foils and why no ama cant? I'd love to get some insight as to his philosophy of design about this boat.


I think it does have ama cant, its just not shown in the drawings posted for whatever reason

The reason it doesnt have ama foils is because the cons outweigh the pros, pretty simple really (same reason M23 doesnt)

#43 Samin

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:13 AM

I am a bit confused by the design. Why would you put a daggerboard in the center hull but add the complexity of using rudders on the outer hulls? If you're not going to fly the center hull beyond what he dagger board will handle, you should be able to use a single rudder on the main hull as well. And that's a lot simpler and less expensive to build.


because when your reaching with main hull out you cant steer very well with a rudder in the middle hull.
sailing upwind ideal heal angle is with main hull just touching so centre hull dagger is just fine

#44 eric e

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:04 AM

Vaka definitely isn't Clissold. Having sailed in Auckland for fifty years you do get to know a lot of people and of course having an interest in multihulls I know the New Zealand multihull people in particular. As for meeting VPLP’s Lauriot-Provost, when a yacht club near you sends out and invitation to come and meet the guy and talk about whats going on at VPLP you would be a fool not to go, right? In the same way I have met James Warram, Ian Farrier, Derrick Kelsall, Peter Blake, Ron Given, Malcolm Tennant, Tim Clissold etc etc.

One last photo.


looks good with mast up

if the mast comes down before the tramps, sails and a launch? dolly and boom? arrive

hope we can get a pic of it folded

#45 munt

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:56 AM

Oh sir Lord, I beg thee forgive my ignorance. I waste all my free time in the ocean sailing and surfing and such, so my opinions are of little, if any value. A very humble question Lordly master, whyfore don't all the French ocean crossers and record smashers use such simple and automatic technology? Must be a conspiracy, maybe they don't want to acknowledge you, good sire? And though I haven't sailed a Rave I have sailed circles around one in about 12 knots of wind, me on an old beachcat, hoping the wind would come up and the poor bloke on the Rave would eventually achieve erection. His party ended abruptly when he hit some kelp. Damn ocean, it doesn't obey your models and theories...And though I've sailed with Greg Ketterman and am lucky enough to consider him a friend (and true genius) I've also seen some of the inherent problems in the Trifoiler. I now resign myself to the fact that your drawings and models are beyond my simian comprehension and (with your permission) will humbly resume my horribly inadequate existence.

#46 Doug Lord

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

are beyond my simian comprehension

===================
I guess I have no choice but to believe you.

#47 bhyde

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:50 PM


I am a bit confused by the design. Why would you put a daggerboard in the center hull but add the complexity of using rudders on the outer hulls? If you're not going to fly the center hull beyond what he dagger board will handle, you should be able to use a single rudder on the main hull as well. And that's a lot simpler and less expensive to build.


because when your reaching with main hull out you cant steer very well with a rudder in the middle hull.
sailing upwind ideal heal angle is with main hull just touching so centre hull dagger is just fine


Is this thing designed to fly the center hull? If it is, then I like it even more.

"Honey, where's my check book?"

#48 bhyde

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

Munt, you didn't actually get sucked into a Doug Foiling Vortex from Hell did you?

#49 munt

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

remember the old original "The Fly" movie, where the little human headed fly dude is screaming "Help me....!"
yeah, just crush my head with a rock, please.

#50 Multihauler

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:55 PM

Close examination of the image with the mast up shows what looks like short water-stays. They appear to attach to the beams at, or near the folding joint.

In thinking about the Dotan rudders, these should make in very easy to raise the windward rudder...........not a bad idea, me thinks.....assuming that they can handle the load, and that owners are willing to put up with the slop of the Dotans.

-MH

#51 eric e

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:01 PM

Close examination of the image with the mast up shows what looks like short water-stays. They appear to attach to the beams at, or near the folding joint.

In thinking about the Dotan rudders, these should make in very easy to raise the windward rudder...........not a bad idea, me thinks.....assuming that they can handle the load, and that owners are willing to put up with the slop of the Dotans.

-MH


makes sense to buy some off-the shelf rudders at start while the rest of the boat is being sorted

the weta used similar, same?, dotans for awhile which were dropped in favor of their own rudder when production numbers justified making their own

as easy saving to make as i think those dotans are over $500 each

with that simple hinge mid-beam it seems the only thing strong enough to lock the beams would be a water-stay

but again it's a prototype, a more elegant system may be down the road if this boat generates orders, the first nz built wetas had curved carbon beams, but they were switched to the 2 tubes with elbows for production reasons

i wonder who this boat is for?

if it were a TC funded build you would think he would prefer to keep an eye on it in nz

doesn't seem likely that it is vaka's

so a TC customer?

wonder where it will be shipped

#52 RedTuna

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:00 PM

but again it's a prototype, a more elegant system may be down the road if this boat generates orders


Good point to keep in mind. I can't tell for sure from the quality of the pic if the mast rotates or not. It looks like it doesn't but I can't imagine that it wouldn't on a production boat.

#53 eric e

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:03 PM

tim clissold gets around to getting the TC627 on his website

http://www.tcdesign....s/TC_627.html#0

#54 Speng

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:50 PM

Don't see the purpose of the stupid little coachroof, it's not like it makes the "interior useful anyway. Rig looks a little forward for my taste but looks pretty. Need info on specs and sailing pics. BTW where's the traveler?

#55 steveromagnino

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:54 AM

This is the yard that also builds the Shaw 650s, so I know this boat fairly well.

The traveller is the black curved line on the rear beam in the image on post #28.

I do not recall the reasoning behind the twin rudders/single centreboard, but the boat is not really designed to be flying the centre hull miles out of the water (although unlike the weta it probably has enough volume in the amas to get it unloaded).

Compared to a WETA it is a much bigger boat.

The cabin line is partly due to the owner (yes this boat is already sold) who plans to use in the south of Thailand sailing from place to place and will store fishing stuff, etc inside the boat; there is actually some room in there. So you can see the original designer's drawings and the actual boat are slightly different as this was taken into account. People who are paying get to ask for what they want.

I believe the rig could be a rotator or not with regards to the design, but in this particular case I cannot remember what the owner requested.

It's a beautiful little boat. A lot more in common to a M23 or Seacart 26 than a Weta though, in terms of size.




#56 Rohan C

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:01 AM

Does anyone know if it has been sailed yet?

#57 Vaka

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:43 AM

http://www.facebook....&type=1

The boat is sailing! Check out the photos on the facebook link above.

#58 eric e

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

very nice!

i thought it would struggle against the f22 if they were both the same price of about us$50k

but now it looks like a true sail away f22 will be about us$80k?

there would appear to be space for TC's new super weta

if it can remain well below that

which may not be possible as they appear to use about the same materials and the TC won't be able to start with the f22's large order book

Posted Image

#59 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:21 PM

Pretty boat. Always appreciated TCs lines.

But I don't get it. There is the most excellent Multi23 already, and others.
Someone said this boat for under 50k should be a go. REALLY!?
The m23 is/was much less $ than that I believe. (I seem to recall $30-35k usd, which is still a lot)
Another daysailor that few will actually buy, simply because 50k of disposable cash must do far more than daysail, and a racing class is 99.9% unlikely to happen.

I seriously don't trust that type of folding system. Been done, never was great, and can't fold on the water. Fail.

Doug - not everyone thinks ama foils are required equipment. The benefits (IF the disigner gets it right) rarely outweigh the drawbacks. Only at the full on racing limits do they really make sense. Canting rigs too for that matter.
Agree about the cant of the amas. Free performance enhancement, no reason not to have done it.

#60 MoMP

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:38 AM

Looks like a heavy build. Granted very little wind in any of the pics, but all 3 hulls always in the water usually means heavy. Pretty boat, though.

#61 vmg

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:49 AM

Posted Image


These guys look like they are trying to figure out the age-old question directed to beach cat types at boat shows by newcomers/wives/girlfriends..... "Where abouts do you sit on this thing?"

#62 eric e

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:08 AM

to try and do that nice little boat some justice

here's that pic cropped and boosted a bit

now let's see that spin flying!

the motive25r and that other daysailer tri with the low volume floats seem to have been pretty quiet since their launch last summer

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#63 AdventureTri

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:55 PM

Congrats on a beautiful boat with great lines and looks! Any new design that makes it to the water deserves Kudos! Having any folding system on a boat this size is great, and a leg up on the M-23. My biggest concern is even in the photos on FB with only 2 people onboard it seems all 3 hulls are in the water all the time. M-23 has the opposite issue, a bit too much dihedral. Wonder if Tim or the builer under-estimated the bouancy of the main hull or the final sailing weight? Having built 2 boats, I know getting that balance between the hulls is not easy! Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I suspect actual sailing videos and more photos with more pressure will tell a clearer story. Looking forward to seeing that and a video of the folding water to trailer process.

Eric, I think you're referring to the SeaRail 19?

Perhaps we can start new thread discussing what do consumers really want in this market segment? Is there a real demand for something else between the Weta and the Seacart 26/Motive 25, or is it an imagined but not real demand?

#64 eric e

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:41 PM

^
yes the searail 19

not to worry about hull dyhedral? on the TC

just add a few wedges to the folding joins!

#65 Vaka

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:05 AM

The builders Siam Cat’s Luigi Innamorati says the boat is awesome! Fast. It is light and very stiff, performs well with main and jib and very fast with gennaker.
Attached File  TC627L1J.JPG   24.49K   68 downloadsAttached File  TC627L1J.JPG   24.49K   68 downloadsAttached File  TC627L2J.JPG   27.13K   64 downloadsAttached File  TC627L3J.JPG   39.23K   108 downloadsAttached File  TC627L4J.JPG   43.32K   138 downloadsAttached File  TC627L5J.JPG   35.77K   123 downloads

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#66 RedTuna

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:11 AM

Any videos of it under sail, Graeme?




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