2032 replies to this topic

[Bob Perry]

kdh:
You call that a "tit"?
I'm going to have to cut off your National Geographics subscription.

[Ishmael]

A Delta seiner model:

A wave piercing tit. A tit on a boat is perfect for this place.

Why is the tit not faired into the bow?

That's not a tit, that's a knob.

[Jose Carumba]

The tit is nof faired in because it is an addition to an already existing design and difficult to fit up if it was faired back. On the real boat there is a generous fillet around the joint. The bulb, er, tit increases the efficiency enough that any drag losses from the joint area don't matter too much. If we were to do a new design the tit would be faired in over more of the hull. The slopey top is there because fisherman reported a shudder & "clap" when the boats pitched into a wave with the old bulb., dammit, tit. It turns out the waves were collapsing in over the top of the bulb. Bringing the top of the bulb up higher as shown stopped that.

[SemiSalt]

This thread reminded me of this boat by Thomas Gilmer. I would say it's more out-of-date than ugly. I want to say that it's a motorboat with a sailing rig, but then there is the centerboard which isn't needed unless some true upwind sailing ability is required. Of course, very few motorboaters would put up with a boat as slow as this nowadays.

It's hard for today's sailors to imagine that long forestay with no sail set on it, but if you keep in mind that the design is from before the days of jib furlers, you can understand it. With a modern masthead rig, you could get the same sail area on a shorter mast.

This is the only "sailboat" design I can think of with the helm forward of midships.

 Seahorse.jpg   213.04K   199 downloads

[Ajax]

Wow, it's sailing tug boat. I seriously never get tired of the un-ending variety of sailing vessels.

[Bob Perry]

Semi:
I remember that Gilmer boat well. Not sure how well it would have performed but I would suspect it was a tad bit on the slow side. I like the twin rudder detail but with the mast that far aft and the center of hull pressure that far forward I think there could be helm issues. But Gilmer had the eye and I don't think he ever drew an ugly boat. This one looks a bit too much like one of my cartoons for me.

I just noticed that the boat has twin screws. Two diesel engines on a 29' boat seems a bit much to me. I have the feeling this was Gilmer just having some fun.

[Steam Flyer]

I like the Fishers. Maybe it's because I live where there are a lot of boats with forward raked wheelhouse windows and because I have designed fishing boats with them. They are purposeful and if done nicely look good too. They add abit of tension to the design. Yeah, that's it.

That Fisher 25 looks like a fun boat to cruise around the sound in.

A Delta seiner model:


Link to renderings of a nice sailboat designed with forward raked windows. Courtesy of Sons.

http://www.sail2live...tive/index.html

That catamaran is definitely fugly though.

I'm not sure I see the point. "Let's take a slow heavy boat, and re-configure it into a form that requires light displacement for any benefit; and keep the traditional looks on the same modernist configuration." Huh?

Not entirely true, the catamaran would have less drag & wake at trawler speeds even with lots of tonnage, and have more initial stability. So there is some benefit.

Bow bulbs... I rode around in one of these



for some years, curtesy of Uncle Sam... in rough seas the bow would shake like a wet dog, banging horribly. I can imagine what it sounded like thru the hydrophones. This bow bulb was designed for acoustics, not speed... but with around 85,000 HP IIRC we could do about 30.

FB- Doug

[Kirwan]

I know I have posted this before, but I think it has special meaning in this context.

The boat is so ugly, even the owner is trying to get away from it. One can only imagine the smell.


otoh, you gotta admire the inventiveness of the windvane on the hammock seat.

[slap]

I like the Fishers. Maybe it's because I live where there are a lot of boats with forward raked wheelhouse windows and because I have designed fishing boats with them. They are purposeful and if done nicely look good too. They add abit of tension to the design. Yeah, that's it.

That Fisher 25 looks like a fun boat to cruise around the sound in.

A Delta seiner model:


Link to renderings of a nice sailboat designed with forward raked windows. Courtesy of Sons.

http://www.sail2live...tive/index.html

That catamaran is definitely fugly though.

I'm not sure I see the point. "Let's take a slow heavy boat, and re-configure it into a form that requires light displacement for any benefit; and keep the traditional looks on the same modernist configuration." Huh?

Not entirely true, the catamaran would have less drag & wake at trawler speeds even with lots of tonnage, and have more initial stability. So there is some benefit.

Bow bulbs... I rode around in one of these



for some years, curtesy of Uncle Sam... in rough seas the bow would shake like a wet dog, banging horribly. I can imagine what it sounded like thru the hydrophones. This bow bulb was designed for acoustics, not speed... but with around 85,000 HP IIRC we could do about 30.

FB- Doug

That's not a bow bulb - it's a sonar dome.

[Jose Carumba]

I like the Fishers. Maybe it's because I live where there are a lot of boats with forward raked wheelhouse windows and because I have designed fishing boats with them. They are purposeful and if done nicely look good too. They add abit of tension to the design. Yeah, that's it.

That Fisher 25 looks like a fun boat to cruise around the sound in.

A Delta seiner model:


Link to renderings of a nice sailboat designed with forward raked windows. Courtesy of Sons.

http://www.sail2live...tive/index.html

That catamaran is definitely fugly though.

I'm not sure I see the point. "Let's take a slow heavy boat, and re-configure it into a form that requires light displacement for any benefit; and keep the traditional looks on the same modernist configuration." Huh?

Not entirely true, the catamaran would have less drag & wake at trawler speeds even with lots of tonnage, and have more initial stability. So there is some benefit.

Bow bulbs... I rode around in one of these



for some years, curtesy of Uncle Sam... in rough seas the bow would shake like a wet dog, banging horribly. I can imagine what it sounded like thru the hydrophones. This bow bulb was designed for acoustics, not speed... but with around 85,000 HP IIRC we could do about 30.

FB- Doug

The seiner bulb is not a wave piercing bulb. I don't know where you got that idea. It is a normal bulb with an extended top surface. It is designed, as most bulbs are, to 1) decrease wavemaking resistance and 2) to attenuate pitching acceleration/deceleration in heavy seas. It is short because the length limit for seiners in Alaska is 58 ft. The boat is wide because when you are limited in length you need to go wider to increase carrying capacity. This boat designed 20 years ago is 23 ft wide (L/B of about 2.5), more modern designs are around 27-28 ft wide (L/B of about 2).

My comment on the cat was about it's looks, not it's hydrodynamics.

Yes those sonar domes being so flat on the bottom do slam in a seaway, but as you said they are designed for acoustics. IIRC they had a positive efffect on resistance in smooth water.

Here's a ulb with what I call the "happy whale" look"

 yachtnob.jpg   27.65K   51 downloads

[Maxx Baqustae]

Lancer 65 MS

http://classified.na...lor-136438.html

[Bob Perry]

Max:
I had a Seattle guy with Lancer 65 come to me and say, "I know it's a chevy but can you make it look like a Mercedes?" I said yes I think I can and I did. When I did the new paint job, that's all, for that boat it looked great. It was a complex paint job. Then I had a guy with K-50 come to me, he was YC pals with the Lancer owner and ask me the same thing. I told him no I can't. There was just nothing to work with on the old K 50. The Lancer, as ugly as it was as delivered , had some intertesting lines on it and once I highlighted the good lines and downplayed the bad lines it made a world of difference. So, while the Lancer 65 may be an ugly boat, my version of it was not ugly.

[Tucky]

Max:
I had a Seattle guy with Lancer 65 come to me and say, "I know it's a chevy but can you make it look like a Mercedes?" I said yes I think I can and I did. When I did the new paint job, that's all, for that boat it looked great. It was a complex paint job. Then I had a guy with K-50 come to me, he was YC pals with the Lancer owner and ask me the same thing. I told him no I can't. There was just nothing to work with on the old K 50. The Lancer, as ugly as it was as delivered , had some intertesting lines on it and once I highlighted the good lines and downplayed the bad lines it made a world of difference. So, while the Lancer 65 may be an ugly boat, my version of it was not ugly.

I'd love to see more of what you did. I'm fascinated at how the thickness of a boot top, an eyebrow on a cabin, a sheer stripe, etc. can transform a boat, and bet you used all your tricks.

I picture the owner like the Godfather- "I want you to use all your powers and all your skills. I don't want my wife to see the boat this way . . . . . . " The K 50 guy wasn't able to make you an offer you couldn't refuse.

[Steam Flyer]

... ...

Yes those sonar domes being so flat on the bottom do slam in a seaway, but as you said they are designed for acoustics. IIRC they had a positive efffect on resistance in smooth water.

Here's a ulb with what I call the "happy whale" look"
... ... ...

Don't want to get too close to -that- one! "Are you glad to see me, or is that the Coit Tower in your pocket?"

The comments about the fishing boat's bulb shaking reminded me of the Knox class behavior in big waves. The shaking was dramatic, and in rough weather built up past unbelievable to the conviction that the ship was going to come apart soon. It was difficult to stand much less move freely. I don't remember what frame number the boiler room started at, but approx 1/3 the way aft, the ship like to shook feed pumps & forced draft blowers off their mounts.

FB- Doug

[Bob Perry]

Tucky:
With the Lancer I even had a fly bridge to play with. I used several shades of blue and greyish blue. The Lancer had a "chine" line about two thirds the way up the side and it had a nice sweep to it so I used that line as the "implied sheer" to divide the topsides into two colors and reduced the appearance of freeboard. The K-50 had a very plain hull with no defining lines other than a sheerline and too much freeboard. There was nothing to work with and I did not want to go down in Seattle yachting history as the guy who mucked up a classic K-50.

[Maxx Baqustae]

I understand your logic completely Bob. But people try; sometimes people hurling inordinate amount of cubic dollars phuquing up a perfectly fine craft. And yes, it can be done. They'll never sell it again but done. I hum the theme "My way" in some boatyards. "as ugly as it was delivered"? I know people like that actually - can I use that please?

Beauty is skin deep but ugly goes to the bone.

[Soñadora]

I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily classify that Lancer as an 'ugly' boat. Ever been on one? Sure, they aren't going to win any America's Cup races, but you CAN sail them. Or you can motor. Sure, lots of folks get all pissy about "well, it doesn't do anything well." Except make you feel at home. If you do manage to cruise it to some exotic destination, I will have to admit to a certain amount of appeal that 'comforts of home' could provide. Maybe it's not for me personally, but I could see myself rowing up to one in an anchorage and not being ashamed to invite myself aboard.




As for a K50 ...

[boomer]

Max:
I had a Seattle guy with Lancer 65 come to me and say, "I know it's a chevy but can you make it look like a Mercedes?" I said yes I think I can and I did. When I did the new paint job, that's all, for that boat it looked great. It was a complex paint job. Then I had a guy with K-50 come to me, he was YC pals with the Lancer owner and ask me the same thing. I told him no I can't. There was just nothing to work with on the old K 50. The Lancer, as ugly as it was as delivered , had some intertesting lines on it and once I highlighted the good lines and downplayed the bad lines it made a world of difference. So, while the Lancer 65 may be an ugly boat, my version of it was not ugly.

I'd love to see more of what you did. I'm fascinated at how the thickness of a boot top, an eyebrow on a cabin, a sheer stripe, etc. can transform a boat, and bet you used all your tricks.

I picture the owner like the Godfather- "I want you to use all your powers and all your skills. I don't want my wife to see the boat this way . . . . . . " The K 50 guy wasn't able to make you an offer you couldn't refuse.

Make a comfy live-a-board....

http://www.yachtworl...boat_id=2119745

[Kirwan]

As for a K50 ...

That looks like they took a classic S&S design and did the 'limo stretch' to it... like this:





Hey, it's a great place for a party!

[Bob Perry]

Kirwan:
Well played. You hit the nail right on the head.

I love the old Kettenburgs but the K-50 never did it for me. But to give the boat it's due. The Seattle boat was a party boat.

Shitski: Now I look at the ld K-50 and it kind of looks good to me.
I must me getting old.

Maxx:
you can use " as ugly as was delivered" any time the mood strikes.

[Great Red Shark]

There is a Lancer 65 out here (Honolulu) used to see it out with boat-loads of strippers aboard, and in that context it was the picture of a perfectly-suited vessel.

[Tucky]

There is a Lancer 65 out here (Honolulu) used to see it out with boat-loads of strippers aboard, and in that context it was the picture of a perfectly-suited vessel.

Ahhhhh, hookers and blow. Works every time.

[Gatekeeper]

Ugly boat....kinda sorta.

Attached Files

•  tumblr_me9sbiD53L1rvkla3o1_500.jpg   46.32K   323 downloads

[Ishmael]

Ugly boat....kinda sorta.

The crew is a redeeming feature.

[Gatekeeper]

Crew? Oh ya, her....but that is still one crappy looking hull, no matter the hood ornament.

[Ishmael]

[boomer]

Ahhhhh, hookers and blow. Works every time.

Those were the days my friend!

Though I've been well behaved for about 20 years or so....I liked seeing the guys having a good time, at the end of a job, with a good couple day party....so after my last big job, figured we'd have a good one and made the proper arrangements....and a good one it was...after a day of games and barbequing the darkness of the first evening approached....a couple higher ups and dignitaries were still there.....the ladies started arriving...my super boss approached me, "your not really having these women here for...." I replied, " I always take care of my men.".....so he ushered out those who might be offended...and the night began....the top hands got the first pick and so forth....and we were running out of ladies....so before 10 PM I had the head lady call for reinforcements....they arrived within the hour.....BTW....I was well behaved, my only task was to insure everyone had their privacy.....ahhhh, to be young again.

[slap]

The old Luger 21. It was a kit boat.

[rattus32]

Ugly boat....kinda sorta.

Waaay better than when we were down in Belize, and a bareboat cat filled with Italian guys aged 50+ *had* to anchor less than 50m away at an isolated cay. The Speedos were bad enough.

Then came deck-shower time... "Girls (aged 10 & 12 at the time) get down below NOW!"

but to counter, there was that time when there was a gorgeous topless model shoot on a nearby boat off Huahine. For some strange reason the wives weren't impressed ;-)

[Soñadora]

Kirwan:
Well played. You hit the nail right on the head.

I love the old Kettenburgs but the K-50 never did it for me. But to give the boat it's due. The Seattle boat was a party boat.

Shitski: Now I look at the ld K-50 and it kind of looks good to me.
I must me getting old.

I had written up a bunch of drivel about how I guess my hope of ever being a yacht designer when I grow up is pointless since I guess I don't know what ugly really is. But then I erased it. That K-50 looks gorgeous to me. Must be the brightwork

[Paps]

Ahhhhh, hookers and blow. Works every time.

Those were the days my friend!

Though I've been well behaved for about 20 years or so....I liked seeing the guys having a good time, at the end of a job, with a good couple day party....so after my last big job, figured we'd have a good one and made the proper arrangements....and a good one it was...after a day of games and barbequing the darkness of the first evening approached....a couple higher ups and dignitaries were still there.....the ladies started arriving...my super boss approached me, "your not really having these women here for...." I replied, " I always take care of my men.".....so he ushered out those who might be offended...and the night began....the top hands got the first pick and so forth....and we were running out of ladies....so before 10 PM I had the head lady call for reinforcements....they arrived within the hour.....BTW....I was well behaved, my only task was to insure everyone had their privacy.....ahhhh, to be young again.

Thats a fave song of mine Booms, love it.

[Tom Ray]

I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily classify that Lancer as an 'ugly' boat. Ever been on one? Sure, they aren't going to win any America's Cup races, but you CAN sail them. Or you can motor. Sure, lots of folks get all pissy about "well, it doesn't do anything well." Except make you feel at home. If you do manage to cruise it to some exotic destination, I will have to admit to a certain amount of appeal that 'comforts of home' could provide. Maybe it's not for me personally, but I could see myself rowing up to one in an anchorage and not being ashamed to invite myself aboard.




As for a K50 ...

That Lancer 65 does not provoke my usual reaction of wondering why someone screwed up a perfectly good powerboat with a mast. Instead it makes me wonder why someone screwed up a sailboat with a flying bridge. Only it does not seem all that screwed up. I actually kind of like it.

There is nothing wrong with that K-50 that a chainsaw could not fix.

[Ajax]

Ahhhhh, hookers and blow. Works every time.

Those were the days my friend!

Though I've been well behaved for about 20 years or so....I liked seeing the guys having a good time, at the end of a job, with a good couple day party....so after my last big job, figured we'd have a good one and made the proper arrangements....and a good one it was...after a day of games and barbequing the darkness of the first evening approached....a couple higher ups and dignitaries were still there.....the ladies started arriving...my super boss approached me, "your not really having these women here for...." I replied, " I always take care of my men.".....so he ushered out those who might be offended...and the night began....the top hands got the first pick and so forth....and we were running out of ladies....so before 10 PM I had the head lady call for reinforcements....they arrived within the hour.....BTW....I was well behaved, my only task was to insure everyone had their privacy.....ahhhh, to be young again.

Wow. I wish my boss was more like you!

[bugger]

I have been following this thread and am learning a lot, but would now like to add my two cents.

I think a lot of what makes a boat look ugly is scale: a 22' boat shouldn't try to look like a 30' boat. A 40' sailboat shouldn't try to look like a 150' motorboat. A dinghy should look like a dinghy.

There is nothing particularly attractive about the IMOCA (and similar) large single-handed racing boats because they look like dinghies (although as an engineer I find the purity of their form - nothing extra - sort of attractive in a minimalist way).

Some of the smaller boats that try to have 6' standing room, berths for 5 etc don't work simply because they can't be scaled the right way. The proportions are wrong.

So that is what it comes down to for me in terms of what is ugly: boat features (cockpit, cabin, freeboard, foredeck, mast height, etc.) are just the wrong size for the size of the boat.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Somewhere along the line, I think the last one built, there was a K-50 that had a "normal" truck cabin. That boat looked much better than the version with the big windows. That said, having sailed K-50 #2 (AKAMAI) from Los Angeles down through the canal and almost to Jamaica (that's another story) and then back to LA again, I can tell you those big windows are awfully nice for folks living aboard. The traditional trunk cabin version feels like a dungeon.

The thing I've never understood about the K-50 design is why Paul put so much freeboard on her. She had about a foot of space from the top of the engine to the cabin sole, plenty of space to lower the sole a FOOT! Imagine what a K-50 would have looked like with a foot less freeboard all around - amazing. Someplace I have a line drawing of the K-50 which I modified to reduce the freeboard - it's stunning.

BV

[WHL]

Ugly boat....kinda sorta.
 westerly centaur.jpg   46.32K   35 downloads

Hmmm an interesting assessment given that the Laurent Giles designed "Centaur" was Westerly's most popular pocket cruiser. A bilge keeler that sailed well and had a surprisingly functional interior.
GK I guess your view of beauty or ugly must be skin deep.

[Bob Perry]

BV:
Lowering the freeboard of the K-50 would have helped the look but keep in mind that if you lower the cabin sole a foot you would greatly reduce the footprint of the sole and with that the accomodation plan would be compromised.
Shit, even 6" would have helped a lot.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

BV:
Lowering the freeboard of the K-50 would have helped the look but keep in mind that if you lower the cabin sole a foot you would greatly reduce the footprint of the sole and with that the accomodation plan would be compromised.
Shit, even 6" would have helped a lot.

Yup, I'm sure it would have made the cabin sole smaller. But most of the space near the turn of the bilge at the waterline was behind things like berths and below lockers, so she would have lost a lot of storage space. I agree 6" would have probably been enough. On that long trip, we were stunned once when we loaded her down with supplies, fuel, spares, etc... for what we forecast would be about 60 days at sea. We sunk the entire boot top under the water - getting that 6" you asked for - and she was beautiful. We just stood there looking at her, considering how we were going to keep the boot top from growing barnacles and admiring how beautiful she looked that low in the water.

BV

[Ishmael]

Can I enter a submarine into this admiration society?



Just unveiled by the Iranian Navy. Quite a sense of style there...

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Ish,

You gota love that Miami Beach Color Scheme - Miami is the ONLY place that thing would fit in. Amazing!

BV

[SemiSalt]

Ugly boat....kinda sorta.
 westerly centaur.jpg   46.32K   35 downloads

Hmmm an interesting assessment given that the Laurent Giles designed "Centaur" was Westerly's most popular pocket cruiser. A bilge keeler that sailed well and had a surprisingly functional interior.
GK I guess your view of beauty or ugly must be skin deep.

I always thought the Cape Cod Bullseye was pretty ugly. I didn't realize that it was a version of the Herreshoff 12 1/2 until Phil Bolger mentioned it. He said it was "more candidly adapted to fiberglass construction" that the rather stylish E&D Doughdish. A lot of the early fiberglass boats, including the Centaur, have the same problem. There was stuff to learn about how to design and build in fiberglass, and also, the public's sense of esthetics had to be educated about the new material.

[SemiSalt]

Can I enter a submarine into this admiration society?



Just unveiled by the Iranian Navy. Quite a sense of style there...

About the size of a pre-WW I sub. I guess they are not going far.

[olaf hart]

Can I enter a submarine into this admiration society?



Just unveiled by the Iranian Navy. Quite a sense of style there...

Love the little blisters on the side so you don't fall off coming down the ladder steps from the tower.
Do you reckon they have to plug it in to charge it?

[Tom Ray]

Ish,

You gota love that Miami Beach Color Scheme - Miami is the ONLY place that thing would fit in. Amazing!

BV

The water in northern Biscayne Bay is about that color, so it would be reasonably good camo for a sub.

If that water were more than about 8' deep, that is.

[Tom Ray]

I have a grill made out of an old swimming pool filter. Makes a fine steak.

I wonder whether that cylinder out on the foredeck is the BBQ? Or why is it there, if not?

[Ishmael]

Ish,

You gota love that Miami Beach Color Scheme - Miami is the ONLY place that thing would fit in. Amazing!

BV

The water in northern Biscayne Bay is about that color, so it would be reasonably good camo for a sub.

If that water were more than about 8' deep, that is.

That would seem an appropriate operating depth for this particular craft. I wouldn't go any deeper in it.

[Maxx Baqustae]

Can I enter a submarine into this admiration society?



Just unveiled by the Iranian Navy. Quite a sense of style there...

Love the little blisters on the side so you don't fall off coming down the ladder steps from the tower.
Do you reckon they have to plug it in to charge it?

Couple of more stripes on their ensign and they will be the gay submariners. In the gay Navy.

Oops....er....NTTAWWT

[Paps]

Guy up the back is not looking too confident.

"What the Fuck was that??"

[boomer]

Can I enter a submarine into this admiration society?



Just unveiled by the Iranian Navy. Quite a sense of style there...

Looks like a toy.

[Kirwan]

y'all can talk about boats that are too tall... flybridge on a sailboat? But the one that's always left me cold is too short:



I know people love them, but I get a little shudder every time I see one.

[Jose Carumba]

I have a grill made out of an old swimming pool filter. Makes a fine steak.

I wonder whether that cylinder out on the foredeck is the BBQ? Or why is it there, if not?

My sources say it's where they keep the homing pigeons.

[Tim042]

Can I enter a submarine into this admiration society?



Just unveiled by the Iranian Navy. Quite a sense of style there...

Looks like a toy.

That might be the one they ordered from the Koreans...some sort of mix up in translation apparently...

[floating dutchman]

Can I enter a submarine into this admiration society?



Just unveiled by the Iranian Navy. Quite a sense of style there...

Looks like a toy.

That might be the one they ordered from the Koreans...some sort of mix up in translation apparently...

Well for starters, The wake appears to have been installed at the wrong end.

[Rasputin22]

Sort of like the photo of the spy ship that was nabbed by North Korea, the USS Pueblo. My Dad knew the skipper and when a book got published by the skipper telling the 'inside' story, I found it amusing that the cover photo showed the vessel steaming backwards. I think this is the photo that was on the cover of the book, look at the trail of the discharge water from the pumps amidship. How appropriate!

[Ishmael]

The officer at the back is probably thinking that the guys walking that POS along the bottom are starting to get into deeper water.

[olaf hart]

Can I enter a submarine into this admiration society?



Just unveiled by the Iranian Navy. Quite a sense of style there...

It's probably a marine version of an explosive vest.

[baccara]

Ugly boat....kinda sorta.
 westerly centaur.jpg   46.32K   35 downloads

Hmmm an interesting assessment given that the Laurent Giles designed "Centaur" was Westerly's most popular pocket cruiser. A bilge keeler that sailed well and had a surprisingly functional interior.
GK I guess your view of beauty or ugly must be skin deep.

I always thought the Cape Cod Bullseye was pretty ugly. I didn't realize that it was a version of the Herreshoff 12 1/2 until Phil Bolger mentioned it. He said it was "more candidly adapted to fiberglass construction" that the rather stylish E&D Doughdish. A lot of the early fiberglass boats, including the Centaur, have the same problem. There was stuff to learn about how to design and build in fiberglass, and also, the public's sense of esthetics had to be educated about the new material.

Uh, what exactly is ugly in that little boat ? Deck could look better with a different colour (cream, maybe?) and some sort of "eyebrows" to give it a bit more "accent", but apart from that it looks quite cute to me.

[SemiSalt]

Ugly boat....kinda sorta.
 westerly centaur.jpg   46.32K   35 downloads

Hmmm an interesting assessment given that the Laurent Giles designed "Centaur" was Westerly's most popular pocket cruiser. A bilge keeler that sailed well and had a surprisingly functional interior.
GK I guess your view of beauty or ugly must be skin deep.

I always thought the Cape Cod Bullseye was pretty ugly. I didn't realize that it was a version of the Herreshoff 12 1/2 until Phil Bolger mentioned it. He said it was "more candidly adapted to fiberglass construction" that the rather stylish E&D Doughdish. A lot of the early fiberglass boats, including the Centaur, have the same problem. There was stuff to learn about how to design and build in fiberglass, and also, the public's sense of esthetics had to be educated about the new material.

Uh, what exactly is ugly in that little boat ? Deck could look better with a different colour (cream, maybe?) and some sort of "eyebrows" to give it a bit more "accent", but apart from that it looks quite cute to me.

Ugly colors and lifeless curves in the cuddy, Also, I don't like the colored deck.

[Elegua]

The white high-top sneaker look. That's fugly. When will designers move on?

[Ishmael]

The white high-top sneaker look. That's fugly. When will designers move on?

When customers stop asking for the room of a 40-footer in 30 feet of boat.

[Bob Perry]

My Danish pal Tom calls that the "bloated tennis shoe" look.

That boat doesn't look like it was built. It looks like it was inflated. Your ears will pop when you go below.

[Elegua]

The white high-top sneaker look. That's fugly. When will designers move on?

When customers stop asking for the room of a 40-footer in 30 feet of boat.

Idjits Of course, I own a bloated shoe too, but at least it has the decency to hide below the waterline like an iceberg. Only whales are offended.

[ancientseawolf]

An ugly ship, like an ugly woman can never be entirely pleasing no matter how fast she may be.

My guiding principle

[kdh]

I like this boat, a Beneteau Sense, for a modern cruising design. There is even some novelty in that the cockpit is huge and has no accommodations under it.

I still like the row-away factor of a traditional design, but this is the best of the worst to me. Flame away.

Bob, have you reviewed any of these yet?

[Bob Perry]

kdh:
I likie that one too. I wouldn't want to own it but I think they have done a good job with the styling. Interesting anchor roller fitting.
I have not reviewed this boat yet.

[Gatekeeper]

I love this boat...but I'm not sure if it's ugly or not.

Attached Files

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[Ajax]

An ugly ship, like an ugly woman can never be entirely pleasing no matter how fast she may be.

My guiding principle

You are wise, sensei.

[jackdaw]

kdh:
I likie that one too. I wouldn't want to own it but I think they have done a good job with the styling. Interesting anchor roller fitting.
I have not reviewed this boat yet.

Bob,

That anchor roller also has a hard point designed in for a furling Code 0 or a furling asym. Because of the non-overlapping headsail design, Beneteau has been showing a lot of them with this config to bolster off the wind performance.

I'm with KDH. Awesome looking. Pia and I are looking for one to charter this winter to do some serious tire kicking.

[jackdaw]

The white high-top sneaker look. That's fugly. When will designers move on?

When customers stop asking for the room of a 40-footer in 30 feet of boat.

Or 32 feet of room in a 26. I'm 100% sure that if a Catalina salesman every told Pia that the extra volume was to please 'the woman', she would punch him in the nose so hard he'd cry.

[Bob Perry]

Gate: that is a classic and far from ugly to my eye. Unique for its time? Yes. But ugly? No. If memory serves that's an Uffa Fox design. " Call me Uffa. Don't call me Mr. Fox."

[Gatekeeper]

Gate: that is a classic and far from ugly to my eye. Unique for its time? Yes. But ugly? No. If memory serves that's an Uffa Fox design. " Call me Uffa. Don't call me Mr. Fox."

Like I said...I love it. It almost has an art-deco look.

Makes you wonder how such a unique little boat finds it's way to Lake Nipissing.

[GLX]

Yes. An Atalanta 26 from Fairey Marine (or possibly the aft cockpit and extremely rare Tatania) 1950's.
Tandem centerboards. Hot molded veneers. I think the molds were built of metal. I don't find them ugly either though not beautiful in a traditional sense.
Some were imported to the US by George O'day though I have never seen one here.
I have read that many of the Atalantas are still sailing in the UK.

[Jose Carumba]

Uffa Fox Fairey Marine Atalanta design.

[jackdaw]

Like I said...I love it. It almost has an art-deco look.

Exactly. If Buck Rogers sailed, THAT would be his boat.

[SemiSalt]

When I see a boat like this which has no side decks, I always think that the designer felt that reserve buoyancy high up was necessary to keep the boat from turning turtle in a knockdown, but maybe it's all about interior room. Whichever it is, the cabin top is going to feel precarious in some conditions.

I found a couple hints on the web that the PHRF for this boat is about 225-230, or about the same as a C&C 25. Not too impressive when you consider that the C&C is decades old and is about 5' shorter on the waterline.

[Bob Perry]

Semi:
You are missing the entire point of that Hunter.
Why would the owner need side decks?
If he did managed to get to the foredeck he wouldn't know what to do anyway.
Better he just sit in the cockpit and let the rig flail itself to death.

[Maxx Baqustae]

When I see a boat like this which has no side decks, I always think that the designer felt that reserve buoyancy high up was necessary to keep the boat from turning turtle in a knockdown, but maybe it's all about interior room. Whichever it is, the cabin top is going to feel precarious in some conditions.

I found a couple hints on the web that the PHRF for this boat is about 225-230, or about the same as a C&C 25. Not too impressive when you consider that the C&C is decades old and is about 5' shorter on the waterline.

Yup, puts the buck in ugly. Like a lot of powerboats that are designed for looking "out" the windows. Hunter has taken a page from Baygrinder, Silverton (those nasty sidewalk thingees) and the ilk. No character at all. All they care about is giving it good boat show!

[jackdaw]

Semi:
You are missing the entire point of that Hunter.
Why would the owner need side decks?
If he did managed to get to the foredeck he wouldn't know what to do anyway.
Better he just sit in the cockpit and let the rig flail itself to death.

The daunting view of the access to the foredeck. And once there no handholds. In a shitty sea, I wouldn't climb up there if the jib was on FIRE.

[Bob Perry]

Jack:
I don't think Hunter wants you up there. You could hurt yourself.

[jackdaw]

Jack:
I don't think Hunter wants you up there. You could hurt yourself.

I hear ya Bob. The target audience of that boat would have their butts plastered in those bench seats 99% of the time. Plus in my case our bow guy looks at me cross eyed whenever I wander north of the cockpit.

PS - Liked your review of the First 25S in Sailing. Nice juxtaposition with Periwinkle.

[Tom Ray]

I have sailed one of those and also the matching Catalina 250 design. Both are about the most monohull you can realistically trailer, though I think the Hunter is a bit overwidth, IIRC. The lack of side decks is about interior space, and also acknowledgement that no one makes adequate side decks in this size range anyway. I've gone over the top rather than try to navigate tiny side decks.

They are somewhat more dangerous in parking lots while rigging. Oh well, some people need to sail off a trailer, and these are the sacrifices you make. I'd own a Catalina 250. The centerboard/water ballast one, since I don't consider the keel one trailerable. We darn near launched the boss' little SUV trying to recover one of those.

[Tom Ray]

That boat Elegua posted needs davits. And rodholders.

(runs for cover, having pissed off enough traditionalists for today)

[Gatekeeper]

I notice the Hunter has no fore hatch...where you you go in the event of a fire, the basement?

[SemiSalt]

If he did manage to get to the foredeck he wouldn't know what to do anyway.
Better he just sit in the cockpit and let the rig flail itself to death.

FWIW, Bolger designed cabins like this, but he included a forward hatch, and told everyone to take the indoor route to the bow.

[Tom Ray]

I notice the Hunter has no fore hatch...where you you go in the event of a fire, the basement?

Look a little closer, it's there. Also an anchor locker.

Upon further review, I'm pretty sure that's a Catalina next to it, complete with inadequate side deck. Those grab rails are where your feet need to be as you go around the inadequate side deck, and the lifelines are just below ankle level, much less useful than the ones on the Hunter.

OK, now I'm really done pissing everyone off for the day.

[steele]

I agree the hunter is not good looking, but there are lots of other small boats with no side decks. Cals had a run of that type, and were favorably disucssed around here not too long ago.

I also do not see big windows as an issue in a small boat, it is not like they are going to get pounded in North Sea. Most small sailboats have an interior that is more like a cave than anything elsle and the added light and view helps.

I guess my point is these features are ok in a small boat, but could have done better from a design standpoint.

[Tom Ray]

I agree the hunter is not good looking, but there are lots of other small boats with no side decks. Cals had a run of that type, and were favorably disucssed around here not too long ago.

I also do not see big windows as an issue in a small boat, it is not like they are going to get pounded in North Sea. Most small sailboats have an interior that is more like a cave than anything elsle and the added light and view helps.

I guess my point is these features are ok in a small boat, but could have done better from a design standpoint.

Sounds like we might have at least one other person around here who has actually been to a boat show to work on commission.

How dare anyone build what sells, or sell what sells?

Just remember next time you want to shop for marine hardware or electronics: most of the reason you have a store at which to do so is because of powerboaters, most of whom buy the "crappy" powerboats that real boaters turn up their noses at. Most of the remaining reason would be sailors who buy BeneHuntalinas. If you really don't like it, go have your stuff fabricated one-off.

OK, guess I wasn't done.

[SemiSalt]

How dare anyone build what sells, or sell what sells?

There is another point to be made that conditions and circumstances vary. A 45' bluewater cruiser is not the boat for everyone, nor is a Melges 24. There may be some people who feel they need trailerablility in a cabin boat to make sailing feasible.

[Tom Ray]

Trailerability is nice, as is the ability to go under the railroad bridge.

[bljones]

My Danish pal Tom calls that the "bloated tennis shoe" look.


That boat doesn't look like it was built. It looks like it was inflated. Your ears will pop when you go below.

That right there is funny, i don't care who you are.

[Joli]

There are no ugly boats. Just those I probably won't buy.

[Gatekeeper]

Look a little closer, it's there.

I don't think that's a hatch...if you look in the cockpit there's a little foot pedal. When you step on it that lid opens.

You figure it out.

[Ishmael]

Look a little closer, it's there.

I don't think that's a hatch...if you look in the cockpit there's a little foot pedal. When you step on it that lid opens.

You figure it out.

That's intelligent design...when it's full you throw it away.

[dolphinmaster]

My Danish pal Tom calls that the "bloated tennis shoe" look.


That boat doesn't look like it was built. It looks like it was inflated. Your ears will pop when you go below.

That right there is funny, i don't care who you are.

Think we could spook that boat at night while it sits a the dock and have it tip over?

[froggie]

My Danish pal Tom calls that the "bloated tennis shoe" look.


That boat doesn't look like it was built. It looks like it was inflated. Your ears will pop when you go below.

That right there is funny, i don't care who you are.

Think we could spook spork that boat at night while it sits a the dock and have it tip over deflate?

Fixed it for you!

[Soñadora]

So I have a tough time judging ugly, 'cept when it comes to the opposite sex. And up here in MN while there are plenty of blond-haired, blue eyed scandi-queens, the ugly stick borne of the ugly tree grows strong up on the range.

It has been brought to my attention that I was wrong to paint with such a broad stroke. We have one of the prettiest Iron Rangers there ever was in the form of Winchin Britches

[Ravac]

I saw someone trying to sail this once.......it didn't look any better wet.

There's a small, dark part of me that likes this boat.

This is the type of thing one lives on when one is a completely disaffected misanthrope. It sits in the cheapest marina way upriver, or by the water treatment plant or cannery, on a pier that nobody seems to own, and doesn't move except once every 3 - 4 years when he motors, laboriously, down the way to get a short haul for the bottom.

He has little use for anyone or anything and keeps to himself. He's evasive and distrusting, but polite enough if you don't ask prying questions. There's a rumor he worked for the government, "fixing" problems in far away places. He doesn't seem to work nowadays. Just spends most days fishing of the breakwater or walking into town to read in the library.

He feeds the 3-legged dog that hangs around, but says it's not his; it's just a stray.

If, after a few drinks at the wharf watering hole, you can get him to talk, he says simply that he likes it there because he lives on a boat on the water, and for as long as he can remember he liked the sound of the waves and the smell of low tide.

[kdh]

So I have a tough time judging ugly, 'cept when it comes to the opposite sex. And up here in MN while there are plenty of blond-haired, blue eyed scandi-queens, the ugly stick borne of the ugly tree grows strong up on the range.

It has been brought to my attention that I was wrong to paint with such a broad stroke. We have one of the prettiest Iron Rangers there ever was in the form of Winchin Britches

Pics?

[kdh]

I saw someone trying to sail this once.......it didn't look any better wet.

There's a small, dark part of me that likes this boat.

This is the type of thing one lives on when one is a completely disaffected misanthrope. It sits in the cheapest marina way upriver, or by the water treatment plant or cannery, on a pier that nobody seems to own, and doesn't move except once every 3 - 4 years when he motors, laboriously, down the way to get a short haul for the bottom.

He has little use for anyone or anything and keeps to himself. He's evasive and distrusting, but polite enough if you don't ask prying questions. There's a rumor he worked for the government, "fixing" problems in far away places. He doesn't seem to work nowadays. Just spends most days fishing of the breakwater or walking into town to read in the library.

He feeds the 3-legged dog that hangs around, but says it's not his; it's just a stray.

If, after a few drinks at the wharf watering hole, you can get him to talk, he says simply that he likes it there because he lives on a boat on the water, and for as long as he can remember he liked the sound of the waves and the smell of low tide.

This is brilliant.

[steele]

I saw someone trying to sail this once.......it didn't look any better wet.

There's a small, dark part of me that likes this boat.

This is the type of thing one lives on when one is a completely disaffected misanthrope. It sits in the cheapest marina way upriver, or by the water treatment plant or cannery, on a pier that nobody seems to own, and doesn't move except once every 3 - 4 years when he motors, laboriously, down the way to get a short haul for the bottom.

He has little use for anyone or anything and keeps to himself. He's evasive and distrusting, but polite enough if you don't ask prying questions. There's a rumor he worked for the government, "fixing" problems in far away places. He doesn't seem to work nowadays. Just spends most days fishing of the breakwater or walking into town to read in the library.

He feeds the 3-legged dog that hangs around, but says it's not his; it's just a stray.

If, after a few drinks at the wharf watering hole, you can get him to talk, he says simply that he likes it there because he lives on a boat on the water, and for as long as he can remember he liked the sound of the waves and the smell of low tide.

Do you write country western songs?