175 replies to this topic

[Soñadora]

I know around here folks don't think too highly of center cockpits. But I sort of like the idea of breaking up the space and giving folks the ability to get away from one another. The biggest problem is the 'layer cake' aesthetic and short seat backs in the cockpit. Of course, that's only on shorter (<45' ) boats if you include a pass-thru down below. On some boats like the Nor'Sea 27 (and I think some Allieds), there is no pass-thru.

Here are two extremes:

Scorpio 72 (if I go to heaven when I die, this is what I expect to find)



and the tough little Nor'Sea 27...one of my favorite boats (Read 'Voyage of Kristina' for a great account of one of these boats)

This one getting ready to sail upwind.

[Diarmuid]

Among smaller boats, Scanmars do neat things with what they called a 'semi-center cockpit' layout. The aft cabin on the 35 is more useful than the 33's, but I could live with either. 33 and cabin:

and the 35:

Both designed by the guy who drew my boat. It's hard to pull of because, as you say, smaller boats generally don't have enuf beam for a walk-thru. Offset companionway hatch?

[Bob Perry]

Many thanks for that call out Rick.
That boat was designed in 1981. I was a young man,35 years old, full of myself and watching one of my design dreams come to life. Days spent crawling around on the rough plug of the Scorpio 72 with a small gang of Taiwanese carpenters eager to do my bidding were some of the happiest days of my life. They built 30 of those boats. I am working with one owner now who is having me design a 43.5 meter version.

[Steam Flyer]

It's a free country (so far), so I'm not inclined to criticize peoplefor liking center cockpit boats. But it's a poorpriority in most cases, in my opinion. If you value privacy & comfort and don't care about sailing performance or looks, then you can get a big-ass camper bus instead of a boat that looks like one.

However...

Some designers & builders get it right

Moody 37... there's one of these docked on our creek and it's a nice-looking boat from any angle (to my eye). Dunno how it sails since unfortunately they never seem to go out.



Nicholson 47... there's a smaller sistership with a great profile too, sailed one of these and they don't give up much in sailing performance


FB- Doug

[Soñadora]

No doubt that was high times, Bob. As far as production boats go, at 72' (well, 65' or whatever) that had to really be pushing the envelope in those days of FRP construction. I personally like the 'owner' (non-charter) version of the love suite aft cabin. Some of the bigger Formosas pulled that off nicely as well, but nowhere near as nice as the Scorpio. I wonder what it's like for a shorthanded crew to handle a beast like that.

Diar

That's a pretty slick solution in a small boat.

[kimbottles]

The Reimers Swede 55 was kind of a center cockpit. The aft cabin was small and only really good for kids, although I had very nice nap back there once during a race.

Very easy boat to handle short/single handed and she sailed very well in spite of her being under canvassed.

The only real drawback was paying for dockage on 52 feet with an interior of a 38 footer. I did convince the yard that they should not charge me on LOA, it took some talking but in the end they agreed I should pay less than a heavy displacement 40 footer for a haulout and bottom paint.

I understand there is an upgraded version with a bigger rig that has been built in Sweden.

[SemiSalt]

Any comments on helm location?

Jim Brown, the trimaran guy, wrote a book that featured his Searunner 34 which had an aft cabin, and therefore a CC. He wrote that some people have trouble steering from a position not far behind the mast because it lacks the usual sight line.

I have a brochure from back in the day for an aft-cabin sailboat 18' long. French.

[Bob Perry]

I have always felt that it's best to have all the boat in front of you when sailing. I could tell odd stories about people being injured while sitting aft of the helm out of the helmsman's site.
As Ray Richards once said, while wearing a suit no doubt, "The aft cockpit maximizes the aspect of reference." Or something very like that. But people love the separation of accomodations you get with an aft cabin.

[Ishmael]

From all my boatlooking, there's a couple that get it right. The Kelly Peterson 46 and the Stevens 47 both look good and from all reports sail well. One of the big advantages of a center cockpit is that you usually get a decent engine room out of it, so you have space not just for regular maintenance but also for addons like a genset or watermaker or multi-stage fuel filtration.

[Bob Perry]

AStevens 47 has a God awful center cockpit. It has no seat back height.

[WHL]

This Bowman 46 Corsair has graceful lines and a solid boat in heavy air. There's a 49 too but I prefer the sheer and proportion sof the 46
 bowman_46_corsaire_drawing.jpg   51.46K   60 downloads

[Para Bellum]

Interesting take on centre cockpits. Are not properly designed CCs safer in blue water?

[boomer]

This Bowman 46 Corsair has graceful lines and a solid boat in heavy air. There's a 49 too but I prefer the sheer and proportion sof the 46
 bowman_46_corsaire_drawing.jpg   51.46K   60 downloads

I was thinking about that one as well....Arther Beiser talks about it in "The Proper Yacht" or maybe it was the 49'.

[boomer]

From all my boat looking, there's a couple that get it right. The Kelly Peterson 46.....

That one as well...

They get much smaller then that and they just don't look right, not to me anyway.

The old Columbia 57 didn't look to bad either.

[boomer]

The S&S designed Northstar 48

[boomer]

Always liked boats with great aft cabins in my youth....most of them seemed to be heavy and slow.

Irving and Alexa Johnson's S&S designed Yankee didn't seem to do to bad under sail, but always felt a great aft cabin worked better in larger boats 55'+.

[SemiSalt]

Interesting take on centre cockpits. Are not properly designed CCs safer in blue water?

IIRC, after a series of small, aft-cockpit boats, the Hiscocks moved up to a bigger, steel, CC boat. They worried about the weight of seawater than the CC would hold if a wave ever filled it. It strikes me as one of those "less likely to happen, more trouble if it does happen" things.

[boomer]

The S&S designed Concordia 52

[steele]

When I was a kid my dad had a Yauchting France 33, the aft cabin was tiny, really just double berth with no pass through. It was good for us kids, my brother and I cold hang out back there, and on cruises my dad could get up at dawn and get the boat going with us sacked out and out of the way. it looked pretty good for a small center cockpit boat, but I do not think it sailed well, and because the aft cabin was so small, and had poor ventilation it was pretty moist and stuffy back there.

Attached Files

•  fandango_33_drawing.jpg   47.15K   14 downloads

[Para Bellum]

Interesting take on centre cockpits. Are not properly designed CCs safer in blue water?

IIRC, after a series of small, aft-cockpit boats, the Hiscocks moved up to a bigger, steel, CC boat. They worried about the weight of seawater than the CC would hold if a wave ever filled it. It strikes me as one of those "less likely to happen, more trouble if it does happen" things.

Taking huge waves of the stern and flooding an aft cockpit seems much more likely. Either way BIG scuppers and good hatches seem prudent. This is a topic I'm very interested in as I do hope to sail the globe one day and I want a skookum boat. Less worried about speed than stability and safety at sea.

[boomer]

Bob's Norseman 447

Attached Files

•  norseman_447_cc_drawing.jpg   63.41K   18 downloads

[Cavelamb]

On the other end of the scale...

Parker Dawson 26 (aka Midship 25) (Bob claims he didn't draw it! But ...)
Considering what it is, not bad looking little boat.
I can't imagine how "cozy" those little cabins would be.
http://parkerdawson....m/1midship.html

And the butt fuggliest little S2 8.0C
(Danger Will Robinson! eye bleach warning! )
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/26771


1976 26' South Coast Seacraft center cockpit
http://www.captainja...mericanlady.htm
Not too bad(?)


I can't quite decide on this one...
Definitely aft cabin, but not really a center cockpit...

Attached Files

•  caravel.jpg   221.27K   19 downloads

Edited by Cavelamb, 19 November 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[boomer]

Pearson 530

[Para Bellum]

As for me I'm in love with the Island Packet, Tartan, Hylas and Oyster yachts. Can't go wrong with their CCs.

[B.J. Porter]

I've been very happy with our HR 53 with a center cockpit. HR seems to do it right IMHO. But I might have a bias.

[boomer]

Always liked the Thomas Colvin Gazelle

[Para Bellum]

I've been very happy with our HR 53 with a center cockpit. HR seems to do it right IMHO. But I might have a bias.

Very nice boat.

[Ishmael]

AStevens 47 has a God awful center cockpit. It has no seat back height.

The Hylas 47 supposedly fixed that, at a doubling of the price.
A little plywood and gelcoat, no problem.

[hobot]

Bob's Norseman 447

Have lusted after this design since doing a bunch of work on one getting ready to cruise the South Pacific.

My favorite small wooden mallets probably still lost down in the bilge beneath the engine.

[Mung Breath]

Friends have a Bowman 57 that they love. Another has a Hinckley 59. Either way, I've just never warmed to the aesthetics of a center cockpit.

[Tom Ray]

Best center cockpit:



(Sorry, got lost on my way to the ugly boat thread.)

[Bob Perry]

Mungster:
I hear you. I have drawn a bunch of them but it's always a challenge.

I agree with Boomer that the Norseman 447 CC is one of the best. Maybe the best under 50'. Enough designers went to school on it. Assholes. Why don't you get your own imaginations?

We'll vote. Ok vote in,. One for "the best" none for "not the best".
I win.

[boomer]

OK Bob...you win.

The Norseman is a well proportioned boat....probably better then many bigger ones



I liked the Bowman 57 as well...

[Soñadora]

Boomer, you make a good point. I was wondering if I should have clarified. By CC, I'm referring to the helm being in the CC which then provides for a nice, comfy Den of Sin across the entire ass end of the boat.

And of course, a "center cockpit" on a trimaran. haha. I get it. loser.

I like Pearson and Concordia. And of course, the Najad and HRs seem to have really perfected the type. Same with Oyster, but I know some folks here who don't care too much for Humphreys *coughbobperrycough*cough*, but I think some of the Oysters are pretty good examples of nice CC.

Anyone ever spend any time on Gulfstars? I've heard praise for some, and the opposite of praise for many of the others.

The biggest concern I'd have would be the depth of the coaming. As Bob pointed out on the Stevens, it seems a lot of the CCs have really low coamings. That would drive me nuts, especially having what seems like 5' of secure coaming around our cockpit.

[Tom Ray]

And of course, a "center cockpit" on a trimaran. haha. I get it. loser.

Well, it is a pit nearly as big as a cock, and it's located between two cabins. What else should I call it?

[Bob Perry]

Great balls of fire Boomer!
That boat you posted is the fore runner of ND's boat CATARI with two cockpits. It even has the cover over the aft cockpit.
And here I thought I was so clever.
Please don't show that pic to my dogs.

I think this is proof that I have lived before.

[kent_island_sailor]

IMHO a center cockpit gets more and more doable the longer the boat gets.
Under 40 feet - not really going to work that well.
Disadvantages:
Wetter going to windward
You sit higher - the motion can be worse
PITA docking shorthanded - you can't get the stern lines from the helm
Potentially convoluted steering cables
Emergency tiller harder to rig in many cases


Advantages:
Kids can be at the opposite end of the boat
Other couples at opposite end of the boat
Crew at opposite end of the boat
Bunk all the way aft is nice when going to windward
Real engine room

[boomer]

That boat you posted is the fore runner of ND's boat CATARI with two cockpits. It even has the cover over the aft cockpit.

I was thinking the same thing....been a long time since I looked at a drawing of the Bowman 57, I forgot all about that. The other version of the center cockpit doesn't have an aft cockpit.

The standard version with an aft cockpit only and no center cockpit, usually have a soft dodger, though I've seen a few pics of one with a built in hard dodger.

Here's the center cockpit version, with no aft cockpit.

[Matagi]

I love the new Najad 410.

[Bob Perry]

Kent:
For sake of argument, no offense intended:
"Wetter going to windward" I don't buy that. If you are getting spray in the cc you sure as hell are going to get it in an aft cockpit.
"motion", don't buy that either. In boats under 50' I doubt you could tell the difference.

Difficulty getting out of the cockpit I buy and that's a big one for me.

While the Norsemann 447 is a great looking cc that cockpit is as big as a small hot tub and that's the price you pay.

Gusting to over 30 knots here. Garbage day so garbage cans are flying down the street. I rescued some when I walked the dogs but I am not going wading to retrieve them.

Matagi:
I agree with you. That is a good looking boat that appears t be working very well and not dragging its transom.

[Onrust1368]

I think Dufour had a decent looking CC, maybe 39 feet?

[kent_island_sailor]

A lot of spray that comes over my bow doesn't make it all the way aft.
Motion is WAY different to me. I have delivered a bunch of CC boats and sitting up higher and forward is a big diff from sitting barely above water level at the aft end of a narrow low freeboard boat.

Kent:
For sake of argument, no offense intended:
"Wetter going to windward" I don't buy that. If you are getting spray in the cc you sure as hell are going to get it in an aft cockpit.
"motion", don't buy that either. In boats under 50' I doubt you could tell the difference.

Difficulty getting out of the cockpit I buy and that's a big one for me.

While the Norsemann 447 is a great looking cc that cockpit is as big as a small hot tub and that's the price you pay.

Gusting to over 30 knots here. Garbage day so garbage cans are flying down the street. I rescued some when I walked the dogs but I am not going wading to retrieve them.

Matagi:
I agree with you. That is a good looking boat that appears t be working very well and not dragging its transom.

[Ishmael]

From all my boat looking, there's a couple that get it right. The Kelly Peterson 46.....

That one as well...

They get much smaller then that and they just don't look right, not to me anyway.

The old Columbia 57 didn't look to bad either.

One of those just came up for sale in Vancouver...http://www.yachtworl...ancouver/Canada

Looks comfy below, I like the rocking chairs.

[Soñadora]

Interesting find, Ish. According to the notes, this boat was the reason Columbia Yachts went out of business (whatever). And the boat's second owner, Jan deGroot wrote two pretty cool books called 'No Shoes Allowed' and 'Gone to Come Back'. I've corresponded with Jan on a few occasions. He was always friendly and cordial. He used to post on the CW forum before it changed and was in quite a few shitfights if I recall. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a handle in SA.

[SpongeDeckSquareFoil]

A nice CC option.
It wouldn't take you across the ocean, but it could take you somewhere.

Attached Files

•  sf1.jpg   42.63K   1 downloads

[rattus32]

The S&S designed Concordia 52

Boomer, I was thinking "man, that's an awfully simple layout for a 52' boat" until I noticed the layout drawing was labeled "42 Foot Performance Cruiser" ;-)

Just sayin'...

[Bob Perry]

Kent:
No offense intended but I call bull shit.

But you are entitled to your wrong opinion.
Your perception of motion may be different but the actual motion will not be much different. Of course, everything feels different when you are in a high cc. I don;t buy the spray argument either. I have heard these same arguments for years and I call BS.

That Columbia Ish posted is sweeeeeet!

[boomer]

Boomer, I was thinking "man, that's an awfully simple layout for a 56' boat" until I noticed the layout drawing was labeled "42 Foot Performance Cruiser" ;-)

Just sayin'...

Oops! The lower two arrangements are for the CC version of the Concordia 52.

[islandplanet]

IMHO a center cockpit gets more and more doable the longer the boat gets.
Under 40 feet - not really going to work that well.
Disadvantages:
Wetter going to windward
You sit higher - the motion can be worse
PITA docking shorthanded - you can't get the stern lines from the helm

Emergency tiller harder to rig in many cases

Kent,
Have you done much sailing in a center cockpit boat?
As Bob said, the claim it's wetter to windward is a bit doubtful. The worst conditions I experienced in a cc had the waves going over the cockpit and landing on the aft cabin so fairly dry in the cockpit.
Docking singlehanded difficult? Hardly. I would much rather be getting a spring line on then worrying about a stern line. I'm closer to the spring (and bow) in the cc. The aft cockpit boats I used to run charters in were no easier to dock.
The two center cockpit boats I've owned had emergency steering that was not particularly difficult to rig.
I like cc for cruising and living aboard.

[boomer]

One of those just came up for sale in Vancouver...http://www.yachtworl...ancouver/Canada

Looks comfy below, I like the rocking chairs.

Nice find Ish and interesting read.

[Kent H]

I am not so sure what I would consider the best centercockpit. The Scorpio and the Cambria are both gorgeous but so very different styles. Tough to compare.

I would think that with all the potential room that we should have seen some sort of performance center cockpit in the last few years. Something simple yet built with light weight materials, sprit so an A sail. Kind of a Jboat but yet a center cockpit. Which brings up another point why has there not been a center cockpit J boat?

I don't see much special from this design but Doug Zurn has an idea for a lighter weight center cockpit

http://www.zurnyacht.../custom/zurn65/


This Morris 52 in burgandy was one that I thought the owners made a lot of good choices. Maybe without the wood deck but other than that I like that boat.

The Morris 57 from Fontaine looked pretty good as well. A lot more restrained than many of his other designs.

That Cambria is very good looking. I saw so many Stevens 47's when they were in charter service and also liked the interior layout. The original boats rated PHRF 72 which was awfully good. The problem was that whenever I saw one with more than four people sailing the crew were hanging on to something outside the cockpit. Not only are the backs low, the cockpit is small as well.

I really think that the best center cockpits are in the near future. Whoever gets the right formula put together can sell some boats.

Attached Files

•  Morris52_006-450x356.jpg   40.18K   13 downloads
•  SetWidth700-420802920022.jpg   55.43K   16 downloads

[Elegua]

This Bowman 46 Corsair has graceful lines and a solid boat in heavy air. There's a 49 too but I prefer the sheer and proportion sof the 46
 bowman_46_corsaire_drawing.jpg   51.46K   60 downloads

This was the boat I wanted to mention. But how do you get a windvane to work well on it?

[kent_island_sailor]

I don't know about "much". I have sailed thousands and thousands of miles in my own aft cockpit boat and might maybe have 1500 total in CC boats.
Thinking back on it, the "different motion" was likely a lot to do with the boats being bigger and heavier than my boat in the first place. I might have thought the same sitting in the stern of the same boat. I recall delivering an Endevour 42 CC boat and with seas on the beam I was thinking the roll felt different sitting that high above the water. In my own boat your feet are maybe 3 inches above the waterline and my beam is less than 10 feet at the forward edge of the cockpit. Taking that same boat straight upwind, we had a lot of spray landing on the cockpit and running down the isinglass that gave this really weird visual effect like being in a fishbowl. Much of that spray didn't make it all the way aft.
I had one of these offshore (http://www.yachtworl.../United-Kingdom) and the CC layout seemed better somehow. Maybe the cockpit floor was lower or something, but the motion didn't feel the same as the higher freeboard boats I had delivered before that.
As for docking, I was usually alone or with one other person. I found it harder than an aft cockpit boat where I could get docklines while still close to the wheel. YMMV on all this and I may well buy a CC boat one day. If you are cruising with kids and their guests, keeping them far away from your cabin is very nice

EDIT - One of the BEST things about a CC boat that I don't recall seeing anyone ever do but custom steel boats is you can put watertight bulkheads and doors at either end of the engine room. I don't know about being unsinkable, but you sure would have a LOT longer to fix a leak with 2/3s of the boat not flooding. Add a collision bulkhead and you might even be able to hit an iceberg

IMHO a center cockpit gets more and more doable the longer the boat gets.
Under 40 feet - not really going to work that well.
Disadvantages:
Wetter going to windward
You sit higher - the motion can be worse
PITA docking shorthanded - you can't get the stern lines from the helm

Emergency tiller harder to rig in many cases

Kent,
Have you done much sailing in a center cockpit boat?
As Bob said, the claim it's wetter to windward is a bit doubtful. The worst conditions I experienced in a cc had the waves going over the cockpit and landing on the aft cabin so fairly dry in the cockpit.
Docking singlehanded difficult? Hardly. I would much rather be getting a spring line on then worrying about a stern line. I'm closer to the spring (and bow) in the cc. The aft cockpit boats I used to run charters in were no easier to dock.
The two center cockpit boats I've owned had emergency steering that was not particularly difficult to rig.
I like cc for cruising and living aboard.

[Bob Perry]

Kent:
I totally agree with you on that. The cc lends itself perfectly to a great layout below for an enclosed engine room, providing the boat is good enough. From a designer's point of view Id say that was the cc boat's biggest advantage.
I also agree with you on the ease of docking and aft cockpit boat single handed. When I design cc boats I work hard to make exiting the cockpit easy. It can be a challenge.

[Soñadora]

The S&S designed Concordia 52

Boomer, I was thinking "man, that's an awfully simple layout for a 52' boat" until I noticed the layout drawing was labeled "42 Foot Performance Cruiser" ;-)

Just sayin'...

Look closer, that's 42' DWL - Designed WaterLine length. I'm guessing that means 52' boat.

Just sayin'...

[boomer]

Double oops!

[Ajax]

From all my boat looking, there's a couple that get it right. The Kelly Peterson 46.....

That one as well...

They get much smaller then that and they just don't look right, not to me anyway.

The old Columbia 57 didn't look to bad either.

One of those just came up for sale in Vancouver...http://www.yachtworl...ancouver/Canada

Looks comfy below, I like the rocking chairs.

What is it with Columbia? They put those "frogeye" cabin tops on several of their boats...the Mk II's especially. I'm surprised to see it on this larger boat.

[boomer]

Just the distinction of the Columbia look when they had Bill Tripp designing their boats. The distinct house design first was used in the Columbia 50, but a few other manufacturers including Pearson also used this distinct house shape on a design or two.The large portlights in varous shapes and sizes were actually used on previous designs by various Columbia designs by various designers, as well as other manufacturers.

http://www.columbia-yachts.com/

Columbia 50

http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=2632



Pearson Countess

http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=2296



Boothbay Challenger

http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=3904

[sailglobal]

Kent, I gotta agree with a couple of your earlier points. Definitely drier further aft. If it wasn't then we'd probably have steering stations on the foredeck. Motion generally seems to me to be less further aft (within reason) and lower in the boat. Some larger (50' or so) yachts seem to have reasonably good looking cc's, however for a low, sleek look it must be hard to achieve a good looking design by the time you add the dodger/bimini thing-a-me-jig. One of the best examples of the latter point in a relatively modern design is the Norseman 447. For it's size the aft cockpit version is one of the best performing boats of it's size I've had the pleasure of sailing aboard, and with the freeboard disguised nicely with the wide cove stripe it's good to look at. The cc version, with 'step ladder required' high boom and the dodger (patio cover as in the earlier post) it must present a real obstacle for the wind and spray in any sort of breeze. It would be great though, sitting at anchor in the tropics with a light wind and sunshine, like it always seems to be in the brochures. The advantages below decks are huge, and obviously tempt many buyers. The 42' DWL Concordia is a great looking yacht, if you pass on the height, and then there's ND's rocket which will have the best of both worlds. just my thoughts,,,,,

[Bob Perry]

Thanks Globs.

[Tucky]

Best center cockpit:



(Sorry, got lost on my way to the ugly boat thread.)

+1

Once you get the engine out from under the cockpit, you can get a real nice berth there, even on a little boat. And my grandson figures its a walkthrough. It also solves the traveler problem and the cluttered cockpit problem and it is real nice in a seaway at night to go forward with safety netting all the way.

[Joli]

We enjoy the living space provided by a center cockpit but like many larger boats we also have a steering station aft. It's nice to see the whole boat when sailing, especially when turning corners.

As Bob mentioned, coamings in a center cockpit can be an issue, too high it's tough to get in and out, too low and you end up with back ache. We have very low coamings so have added folding teak seat backs for comfort. They are there when you want them but fold out of the way when in the way. It seems to work for us.

My only real concern with our layout is crossing from the center cockpit to the aft cockpit, you are very exposed. Granted we mostly drive from the center cockpit but we will still add safety bars prior to full time cruising. I've seen big Swans with molded troughs that the bars fold into. As an older boat, that elegent option isn't something we can do but we'll design something that can be easily added and then removed stowed.

[Bob Perry]

That's one sweet sheerline you have there Joli, a joy to behold.

[Joli]

Thanks Bob. Just like those you draw.

[Tucky]

Those turning block bases at the transom/deck joint are something- a chute puts serious tug on that boat. Or are they the nautical version of the chrome corners Fender amps have

[Whisper]

Ok, that visual got me off the couch to plug into my 1964 Deluxe Reverb.

[kdh]

Ok, that visual got me off the couch to plug into my 1964 Deluxe Reverb.

Great amp. We had an old Twin Reverb with Altec speakers in our band. Heavy.

[Bob Perry]

Drool.

[boomer]

http://www.ebay.com/...=item25775d1d53

http://www.ebay.com/...xe Reverb&rt=nc

[Whisper]

http://www.ebay.com/...=item25775d1d53

http://www.ebay.com/...xe Reverb&rt=nc

OMG!!! I paid $275 in 1989. It wasn't mint, but I did some slight renovation and it sounds awesome for small clubs or recording.

So, what is my truly mint 1964 Super Reverb worth??? I threw up in my mouth paying $800 in 1990. It has the small square label ceramic Jensens.

[Whisper]

We need a bigger boat, and even then there will be no room for amps, etc. Maybe I should sell. Anybody want a 1964 Deluxe Reverb, 1964 Supreme Reverb, 1964 Vibro Champ, 1959 tweed Champ, 1956 strat, 1983 strat (highly customized), and 2003 Mexican 60's reissue strat? Original Tube screamer? Original Big Muff Pi? Other crap? Please tell me not to sell. Or help me buy a Catari (trying to bring it back on topic)

[hobot]

So what's going to be on the relish platter for Thanksgiving this year?

[Balder]

From all my boatlooking, there's a couple that get it right. The Kelly Peterson 46 and the Stevens 47 both look good and from all reports sail well. One of the big advantages of a center cockpit is that you usually get a decent engine room out of it, so you have space not just for regular maintenance but also for addons like a genset or watermaker or multi-stage fuel filtration.

AStevens 47 has a God awful center cockpit. It has no seat back height.

I'll vouch for the Stevens having no seat backs. I don't know if my back has yet recovered from a six week trip in 2008. I hated that, but overall the boat got me to be more open minded about CC's. She sailed well, though she should never have been converted from a cutter to a sloop, there was too much lee helm.

We sailed in some pretty extreme conditions at times, even a gale half way to Hawaii, I found her to rather dry, and we spent a couple of weeks going to windward.

Engine access was great - you could get complete access to front and both sides - essentially the galley, navstation, salon was the engine room once you took off the wraps.

The aft stateroom was quite grand and the aft head was great at sea also.

I used to Dismiss CC out of hand, but now I am willing to look at the bigger picture. They don't all sail like crap, that's for sure.

[boomer]

http://www.ebay.com/...=item25775d1d53

http://www.ebay.com/...xe Reverb&rt=nc

OMG!!! I paid $275 in 1989. It wasn't mint, but I did some slight renovation and it sounds awesome for small clubs or recording.

So, what is my truly mint 1964 Super Reverb worth??? I threw up in my mouth paying $800 in 1990. It has the small square label ceramic Jensens.

That was the highest priced mint copy I could find.

Here are completed listings on the Super Reverb.

http://www.ebay.com/...0&LH_Complete=1

Here are the latest listings

http://www.ebay.com/...xe Reverb&rt=nc

[T sailor]

Joli,

What kind of boat is that? Very pretty.

We enjoy the living space provided by a center cockpit but like many larger boats we also have a steering station aft. It's nice to see the whole boat when sailing, especially when turning corners.

As Bob mentioned, coamings in a center cockpit can be an issue, too high it's tough to get in and out, too low and you end up with back ache. We have very low coamings so have added folding teak seat backs for comfort. They are there when you want them but fold out of the way when in the way. It seems to work for us.

My only real concern with our layout is crossing from the center cockpit to the aft cockpit, you are very exposed. Granted we mostly drive from the center cockpit but we will still add safety bars prior to full time cruising. I've seen big Swans with molded troughs that the bars fold into. As an older boat, that elegent option isn't something we can do but we'll design something that can be easily added and then removed stowed.

[Innocent Bystander]

I always thought the Gulfstar 50 was one of the better looking CC's. Small for a 50 footer but little of the "wedding cake" look that comes when volume is pushed to an extreme (I think Bob coined that phrase years ago).

[boomer]

The problem with the Gulfstar was the QC issues, and the resin used in the hulls usually led to blistering.

They did have a traditional look down below, that I found appealing.

Find one at the right price, and where issues have been corrected, wouldn't be a bad boat for cruising the Caribbean.

[Soñadora]

I always thought the Gulfstar 50 was one of the better looking CC's. Small for a 50 footer but little of the "wedding cake" look that comes when volume is pushed to an extreme (I think Bob coined that phrase years ago).

Tom Neale's "All in the Same Boat" is a good account of living aboard with a family on a Gulfstar Sailmaster. Really more of a motor sailer with extra emphasis on motor, but I agree the older 50'ers looked pretty nice.

And for motor-sailers, the Sailmasters looke pretty good.

[Steam Flyer]

The problem with the Gulfstar was the QC issues, and the resin used in the hulls usually led to blistering.

They did have a traditional look down below, that I found appealing.

Find one at the right price, and where issues have been corrected, wouldn't be a bad boat for cruising the Caribbean.

Take all the pole-and-string-and-rag stuff off it, and it makes a pretty nice trawler too.



FB- Doug

[Cruisin Loser]

I've always thought Ted Hood did a good job with center cockpit ergonomics. I like the Little Harbor 44/46 MUCH better in the aft cockpit version, but the bigger ones, 50'+, manage the center cockpit very well, IMO.

The most amazing C-C-P I've seen was on one of his 75'ers, Palawan. Sorry, I don't have any pics.

[Tucky]

Ok, that visual got me off the couch to plug into my 1964 Deluxe Reverb.

I bought one in 65. One night in 67 I dimed it for the first time (didn't know about turning it to 11). I had an early 60's Gibson SG that said Les Paul on the headstock, sold to me in 65 because I couldn't afford a new one, and hit a note, and out came the sound of the first Cream album- smooth and creamy and the note didn't stop till I laid my hand on the strings. I thought that God had blessed me, but didn't understand that he actually had.

That fall I traded the SG straight up for a Stratocaster and sold the Deluxe to buy a Kustom solid state with Tuck and Roll covers. Where was God when I needed him?

"An unemployed man prayed to God to help him win the lottery for week after week without winning. Finally in his anguish he cried out 'Oh lord, why hast thou forsaken me'. God replied 'Buy a ticket'.

I read that somewhere, probably here, and liked it.

[Ajax]

Meanwhile back in the land of "Joe Punchclock and the realistic paycheck", there were two interesting offerings from O'day:

The 32:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1278

The 37:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1649

I had a neighbor with the 32. It was kind of like midget porn- At first, I was a little wierded out, but now I kind of like it. Lotsa room in that boat.

Coronado made a couple too. Mrgnstrn had the 35' parked next to him for a while. Not attractive, and did not look very capable. Has that wedding cake thing going on.

[Whisper]

Ok, that visual got me off the couch to plug into my 1964 Deluxe Reverb.

I bought one in 65. One night in 67 I dimed it for the first time (didn't know about turning it to 11). I had an early 60's Gibson SG that said Les Paul on the headstock, sold to me in 65 because I couldn't afford a new one, and hit a note, and out came the sound of the first Cream album- smooth and creamy and the note didn't stop till I laid my hand on the strings. I thought that God had blessed me, but didn't understand that he actually had.

That fall I traded the SG straight up for a Stratocaster and sold the Deluxe to buy a Kustom solid state with Tuck and Roll covers. Where was God when I needed him?

"An unemployed man prayed to God to help him win the lottery for week after week without winning. Finally in his anguish he cried out 'Oh lord, why hast thou forsaken me'. God replied 'Buy a ticket'.

I read that somewhere, probably here, and liked it.

For me, the SG's were too neck-heavy to play in a center cockpit boat. A pre-CBS strat was a good trade, IMHO. On the other hand, the Cosmo's Factory album cover was not shot in a CC, so the Kustom tuck-and-roll monstrosity is way out of place. Those little 6V6 power tubes glowing in the Deluxe would warm that cockpit nicely. Not to mention the solid state non-harmonic square wave distortion of the Kustom would shred the sails. God had obviously left the building when you made that choice.

[SemiSalt]

Meanwhile back in the land of "Joe Punchclock and the realistic paycheck", there were two interesting offerings from O'day:

The 32:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1278

The 37:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1649

I had a neighbor with the 32. It was kind of like midget porn- At first, I was a little wierded out, but now I kind of like it. Lotsa room in that boat.

The O'Days have the cockpit set down into the boat, not riding on top. it makes a better-looking boat but of course it comes at the cost of space below. My impression of them is they are just very plain and utilitarian.

The 32 (maybe also the big one) was available with a ketch rig, which brings up another general question. Does the ketch rig work better with a CC than with an aft cockpit?

[viktor]

Meanwhile back in the land of "Joe Punchclock and the realistic paycheck", there were two interesting offerings from O'day:

The 32:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1278

The 37:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1649

I had a neighbor with the 32. It was kind of like midget porn- At first, I was a little wierded out, but now I kind of like it. Lotsa room in that boat.

Coronado made a couple too. Mrgnstrn had the 35' parked next to him for a while. Not attractive, and did not look very capable. Has that wedding cake thing going on.

I don't know if I read that right. I'm I to believe that you like midget porn?

[slap]

Meanwhile back in the land of "Joe Punchclock and the realistic paycheck", there were two interesting offerings from O'day:

The 32:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1278

The 37:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1649

I had a neighbor with the 32. It was kind of like midget porn- At first, I was a little wierded out, but now I kind of like it. Lotsa room in that boat.

Coronado made a couple too. Mrgnstrn had the 35' parked next to him for a while. Not attractive, and did not look very capable. Has that wedding cake thing going on.

I don't know if I read that right. I'm I to believe that you like midget porn?

Really opens up a can of worms. Like "why were you watching midget porn in the first place".

[Whisper]

Meanwhile back in the land of "Joe Punchclock and the realistic paycheck", there were two interesting offerings from O'day:

The 32:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1278

The 37:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1649

I had a neighbor with the 32. It was kind of like midget porn- At first, I was a little wierded out, but now I kind of like it. Lotsa room in that boat.

Coronado made a couple too. Mrgnstrn had the 35' parked next to him for a while. Not attractive, and did not look very capable. Has that wedding cake thing going on.

Courtney, how do YOU feel about midget porn?

[kdh]

I've always thought Ted Hood did a good job with center cockpit ergonomics. I like the Little Harbor 44/46 MUCH better in the aft cockpit version, but the bigger ones, 50'+, manage the center cockpit very well, IMO.

The most amazing C-C-P I've seen was on one of his 75'ers, Palawan. Sorry, I don't have any pics.

Here she is.



And a cousin, the Friendship 75 designed by Ted Fontaine.



Isabel is always a dock neighbor when I'm in Nantucket.

[Kent H]

^{I believe that Joli's boat is a custom Bruckman C&C 61. That is a beautiful boat.}

[Soñadora]

Meanwhile back in the land of "Joe Punchclock and the realistic paycheck", there were two interesting offerings from O'day:

The 32:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1278

The 37:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1649

I had a neighbor with the 32. It was kind of like midget porn- At first, I was a little wierded out, but now I kind of like it. Lotsa room in that boat.

Coronado made a couple too. Mrgnstrn had the 35' parked next to him for a while. Not attractive, and did not look very capable. Has that wedding cake thing going on.

I don't know if I read that right. I'm I to believe that you like midget porn?

Really opens up a can of worms. Like "why were you watching midget porn in the first place".

There was one parked next to Soñadora when I purchased her. When it was pouring rain (which it did a lot), I watched with envy as the young couple who owned the boat sat in the covered center cockpit and enjoyed dinner. I watched and watched and watched so I can honestly say I saw no midget porn. Of course, migets are small and kinda tricky, so maybe I just didn't notice.

[Whisper]

Meanwhile back in the land of "Joe Punchclock and the realistic paycheck", there were two interesting offerings from O'day:

The 32:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1278

The 37:
http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=1649

I had a neighbor with the 32. It was kind of like midget porn- At first, I was a little wierded out, but now I kind of like it. Lotsa room in that boat.

Coronado made a couple too. Mrgnstrn had the 35' parked next to him for a while. Not attractive, and did not look very capable. Has that wedding cake thing going on.

I don't know if I read that right. I'm I to believe that you like midget porn? :D/>

Really opens up a can of worms. Like "why were you watching midget porn in the first place".

There was one parked next to Soñadora when I purchased her. When it was pouring rain (which it did a lot), I watched with envy as the young couple who owned the boat sat in the covered center cockpit and enjoyed dinner. I watched and watched and watched so I can honestly say I saw no midget porn. Of course, migets are small and kinda tricky, so maybe I just didn't notice.

Midgets are perfect for CC boats because they can do their porn below the short seat backs, out of sight for deadbeat voyeurs who don't pay the price of admission.

[kent_island_sailor]

As opposed to dwarf porn?

[Steam Flyer]

... ...

Really opens up a can of worms. Like "why were you watching midget porn in the first place".

Somehow "worms" and "porn," midget or otherwise, don't belong in the same sentence.

As opposed to dwarf porn?

as opposed to elf porn.

FB- Doug

[Soñadora]

... ...

Really opens up a can of worms. Like "why were you watching midget porn in the first place".

Somehow "worms" and "porn," midget or otherwise, don't belong in the same sentence.

As opposed to dwarf porn?

as opposed to elf porn.

FB- Doug

just whatever you do, don't google 'dragon car porn'

[slap]

just whatever you do, don't google 'dragon car porn'

If you put up a big red button with safety shield next to a sign that says "pushing this button will kill you", people will stop pushing the button only when the pile of bodies completely obscures the sign.

[Bob Perry]

Is "midget porn" like those cute little funky looking Bolger boats?

[Para Bellum]

... ...

Really opens up a can of worms. Like "why were you watching midget porn in the first place".

Somehow "worms" and "porn," midget or otherwise, don't belong in the same sentence.

As opposed to dwarf porn?

as opposed to elf porn.

FB- Doug

just whatever you do, don't google 'dragon car porn'

LOL Now you know I just had to do that. WTF?!?!?! How did you stumble onto this.

[Ajax]

... ...

Really opens up a can of worms. Like "why were you watching midget porn in the first place".

Somehow "worms" and "porn," midget or otherwise, don't belong in the same sentence.

As opposed to dwarf porn?

as opposed to elf porn.

FB- Doug

just whatever you do, don't google 'dragon car porn'

That's it. NO ONE can bust on me for the midget porn remark after that shit.

[Anomaly2]

Is "midget porn" like those cute little funky looking Bolger boats?

Bob, you have such a way with words...

Do you mean the really little boxes, like the Tortoise?--- I built one of these with a polytarp sail for my nephews during a week of evenings after meetings in Kodiak. (maybe the Tortoise is a center cockpit no? We ARE sitting in the center.... note the thread relevance)

Or the slightly larger ones like Micro (no its not the lapstrake one (but also Bolger))?

Thinkiing of midget porn as funky smally boats is so much more preferable to, well, ... oh never mind.

Attached Files

•  SkipperSteven1.jpg   375.56K   11 downloads
•  Beauty_n_Beast.jpg   188.27K   12 downloads

[Soñadora]

... ...

Really opens up a can of worms. Like "why were you watching midget porn in the first place".

Somehow "worms" and "porn," midget or otherwise, don't belong in the same sentence.

As opposed to dwarf porn?

as opposed to elf porn.

FB- Doug

just whatever you do, don't google 'dragon car porn'

LOL Now you know I just had to do that. WTF?!?!?! How did you stumble onto this.

I'm also a car guy and some of the car guy forums rival the best that SA has to offer. When you think you're out there...I mean REALLY out there being all imaginative and shit thinking, "damn, I bet no one's ever thought of this!" Don't fool yourself. Someone has.

And notice we haven't heard from Slap in a while. He's fillin' up his hard drive with Dragon Car Porn.