Jump to content


Refitting Fionn


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:43 PM

Thanks for all your endorsements in the original thread; I thought it best to begin a new one for our questions in the long process of stripping and fitting out our new Albin Ballad. We'll be soliciting your opinions on chainplates, cabin layout, sailplan, and deck hardware in the future. Cuz y'all know more than we do.;)

But for now, until we've paid off the $ damages to date, we want to start small, with projects we can mostly do indoors. The three cockpit locker lids are currently made of plywood, with no seals or latches to hold them closed.

Posted Image

It would be nice to remake them in FRP with positive latching and watertight seals. Also, they open belowdecks, which some people consider dangerous.

What would be your favored method for scratch-building new laz covers? Could make them in ply, then glass over it; could build molds; could just form them up by hand; could start with a material like G10 for the flat portions.

Climbing down into the lockers is necessary for engine access, as things now stand. Should we still consider isolating the lazarettes from the interior?

Our other major winter project will be the rudder. It's a hollow construction & has got water in it over the years. Might have a foam core, but if so, that's pretty well toast. I'm expecting to strip it down to the stock and build back from there. Should I take a splash mould of the existing rudder, or just template it at ~eight stations, shape it in foam, and lay FG over that? Full skeg, tiller steered.

Posted Image

#2 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

Diarm:
I think splash of the existing rudder would be the easiest way to go. Maybe before you rip the entire thing apart you could cut a windown in the side say 4" by 4" and inspect the foam. All rudders get water inside them eventually. There is just no way to keep that bond where the stock exits the blad watertight. That's why CF rudder are so good.

#3 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

Thanks, Bob. I worry a little about the state of the rudder stock welds, inside that wet assembly. Once the rudder is pulled, I will cut into it to see what's going on. The only blisters on the whole boat are on the rudder. Interesting design: there's no stuffing box on the the rudder post. Instead, a length of radiator hose is clamped on the entry ... pipe, nipple, whaddayacallit. The hose is tall enough to finish well above the waterline. Simple.

Someone has recently replaced the prop shaft stuffing box with a PSS dripless seal, too. I so much want to make this old Penta work for us. For three or four years, anyhow.

#4 SpongeDeckSquareFoil

SpongeDeckSquareFoil

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 439 posts

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:33 AM

....

What would be your favored method for scratch-building new laz covers? Could make them in ply, then glass over it; could build molds; could just form them up by hand; could start with a material like G10 for the flat portions.


As far as the covers, building molds or building in ply and covering with glass would be my shot. Not sure if either has a benefit for 3 covers. With your woodworking skills either way would probably be fine. Don't see any reason for G-10. They appear to be short enough that a small brace could be glassed in if they were flexing.

#5 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,954 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:56 AM

... ... The three cockpit locker lids are currently made of plywood, with no seals or latches to hold them closed.

Posted Image

It would be nice to remake them in FRP with positive latching and watertight seals. Also, they open belowdecks, which some people consider dangerous.

What would be your favored method for scratch-building new laz covers? Could make them in ply, then glass over it; could build molds; could just form them up by hand; could start with a material like G10 for the flat portions.

.... ...


Probably the quickest & easiest would be to staple together a cover using ply, glass the inside seams & braces, then shape the outside as you like and glass the outside. The problem with this is that you have now encapsulated wood which will rot in X time.

What I would do (and have done) is fab up the covers using foam core... same routine as wood really, except that you can use toothpicks & packing tape to do the intitial fastening of the panels together. Make sure it's braced into form solidly enough to glass the inside without having it lose shape/dimensions. The nicer thing about this is that you can give the covers deep lips to help shed water, add bracing inside, round off the outer corners to taste then glass the outside.. They will be lighter and stiffer than the plywood, and it will never ever rot. More expensive though; for a small project like the cost difference is a big percent but not so much in dollars.

Ditto on not using G10.

FB- Doug

#6 steele

steele

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 779 posts
  • Location:Land of the locks

Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:18 AM

For the rudder have you considered cutting around the outside edges and splitting it in half? You could then dig out the old foam, inspect the post and cross bracing, and the rebuild it using the old outside skin. I have not done this, but this process has been used by other owners of my type boat and rudder and they have reported success. I have an old print article describing this, I will try to find it.

The problem with the locker covers is they are flat and water will always stand on them. Also, they have full exposure to UV and because of their location get lots of abuse. My originals were wood, and it did not matter what they were covered with, varnish, cetol, epoxy, one season would ruin whatever surface was on them. In the end they were replaced covers made of flat plastic stock with non-skid tape on top. It is not as good looking, but the time saved in maintenance has been worth it.

#7 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:51 PM

Hmmm. Good idea, Steele. Might be able to at least use the old rudder skins for the baseline shape. If they are properly glassed to the stock, it may be difficult taking them off in one piece. Cheesewire, perhaps?

We might take this opportunity to make the rudder post a bit taller. It sits mighty low in the cockpit. At least one owner has moved the tiller to the rear coaming.

#8 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:25 PM

I decided to pull the four leaky chainplates, which the PO had mounded silicone caulk around to try and stop the leaks. The plan was to seal them crudely with butyl mastic until spring, when I can recore the side decks properly (too cold right now). The Ballad's chainplate arrangements are very strange & will be rationalized during the refit. Let's just say they don't entirely line up with internal bulkheads, so various trusses and SS channel are employed to put the deck penetrations where they are needed. The penetrations themselves consist of 1/2" shouldered eyebolts. One of which is pictured below, punched up a bit for contrast:

Posted Image

Are those cracks at the top thread the beginnings of crevice corrosion? I would have expected risers to propagate into the bolt body at the threads, not parallel to the shaft. Wassup with that?

Anyone have a source for eyebolts like this, in 316SS or titanium?

#9 Presuming Ed

Presuming Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,954 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:28 AM

Posted Image


Slightly have to wonder what the designer was thinking about when he drew that rudder profile. You can just about see tip vortices spinning off when she's sitting on the hard. Under way....??? :blink: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Good luck with the rest of the refit. Nice boat.

#10 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

Supposedly the idea was to get as much blade area down deep as possible. Some strange rudder/skegs on those late 60s IOR boats. I wouldn't be surprised if Magnusson's original rudder design lacked bite downwind & this was their solution. So much freakin' drag on these old hulls, maybe another few tip vortices get lost in the noise. :P

Not sure I'm the guy to correct it, tho. We're gonna have to live with that second keel skeg & barn door.

#11 freakIRL

freakIRL

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,366 posts
  • Location:Dublin, Ireland

Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:50 PM

This page may offer you some suggestions regarding a repair / rebuild of the rudder.

#12 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

This page may offer you some suggestions regarding a repair / rebuild of the rudder.


Thanks for the link, Freak -- is that your blog?

So pourable closed-cell foam mix comes in densities from 2# (per cubic foot) to 16#. The former is certainly more cost effective, while the latter has better strength and water resistance. While you don't want a rudder to be too heavy, I would think you don't especially want it too buoyant, either. Any suggestions for foam density? Water's about 60lb/sqft.

And would G-Flex maybe be a good choice for where the stock enters and exits the rudder blade?

#13 Balder

Balder

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 461 posts
  • Location:Hong Kong (from Bellingham, WA)
  • Interests:Sailing, and currently trying to configure my career to sail more, may be able to pull it off.

Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

Water's about 60lb/sqft.

IIRC salt water is 64.2lbs/Ft3
Fresh 62.4

#14 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:09 PM

About. -Ish. Roughly. ;) For porpoise of comparison. I'm just wondering if rudder core is a place to shave weight on a non-racer, if it comes at the cost of non-neutral buoyancy & absorbancy. We're only talking 4-8lbs total weight difference between the densest foam and the airiest.

Rudder's off the boat. Required digging a trench in half-frozen, stony ground, but it is off. May open up that oyster today, see what pearls await us. :blink: On the positive side, last night's 60mph winds didn't knock the boat over.

#15 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:25 PM

Now here's an interesting thing. We're starting to take down the cabinetry & open up those areas of the decks where stuff will go or water has got in, so they have time to dry by the time epoxy weather arrives in June. Today I made the inside cutout for the new Bomar hatch. Supposedly the core material is Divinycell -- but it looks for all the world like it was poured in place. The inner skin was suspended from the outer via fiberglass twists on a 1 x 1.5" grid, then the foam was injected. Maybe? anyone ever heard of such a construction technique?

Posted Image

Posted Image

It makes the inner skin harder than hell to get loose. Which may have been the point.

#16 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,590 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:35 AM

And would G-Flex maybe be a good choice for where the stock enters and exits the rudder blade?

Thats what I was thinking... I spread a very thin coat of G/Flex over every portion of the stainless in my rudder. Then finished rebuilding the rudder with conventional West 105 with the appropriate thickeners for the rest of the buildup. My line of thinking is that the G/Flex might have a better chance of sticking to the stainless, and due to its flex might keep the seal longer (or at least fill the gap better) than just glassing the whole works back up with regular epoxy would have done. Also applied the fillet around the stock with G/Flex rather than 5200 as I have seen suggested in some books and magazines. Got me across the Gulf of Alaska- so far so good.

#17 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:27 PM


And would G-Flex maybe be a good choice for where the stock enters and exits the rudder blade?

Thats what I was thinking... I spread a very thin coat of G/Flex over every portion of the stainless in my rudder. Then finished rebuilding the rudder with conventional West 105 with the appropriate thickeners for the rest of the buildup. My line of thinking is that the G/Flex might have a better chance of sticking to the stainless, and due to its flex might keep the seal longer (or at least fill the gap better) than just glassing the whole works back up with regular epoxy would have done. Also applied the fillet around the stock with G/Flex rather than 5200 as I have seen suggested in some books and magazines. Got me across the Gulf of Alaska- so far so good.


We may try a bit of both -- G*Flex to bed the shaft, then a little 5200 for the fillet. I'm nowhere on the rudder right now -- can't decide whether to scratch build a new one, reuse the old halves, pour the foam in place, or what. No rush on it, anyhow. Coating the entire stock is an interesting idea.

From the "What's keeping yo boat off the bottom" files: here's another seacock, this from the galley sink. Which seacock was probably leaking pretty good, so someone just closed the gate valve and unhooked the hose.

Posted Image

The deeper I dig, the more obvious this is a rock-solid hull with some real dumb things done to it. Probably at the factory. Looks the the refit is going to need a longer run-up than intended.:(

#18 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,590 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:11 PM

That valve looks pretty good, er at least better than some I have seen. I had a gate valve that didn't seem to be working, and upon closer examination found no gate inside! Totally gone...

#19 bmiller

bmiller

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,797 posts
  • Location:Buena Vista, Colorado

Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:05 PM

I decided to pull the four leaky chainplates, which the PO had mounded silicone caulk around to try and stop the leaks. The plan was to seal them crudely with butyl mastic until spring, when I can recore the side decks properly (too cold right now). The Ballad's chainplate arrangements are very strange & will be rationalized during the refit. Let's just say they don't entirely line up with internal bulkheads, so various trusses and SS channel are employed to put the deck penetrations where they are needed. The penetrations themselves consist of 1/2" shouldered eyebolts. One of which is pictured below, punched up a bit for contrast:

Posted Image

Are those cracks at the top thread the beginnings of crevice corrosion? I would have expected risers to propagate into the bolt body at the threads, not parallel to the shaft. Wassup with that?

Anyone have a source for eyebolts like this, in 316SS or titanium?


Well that's cool, a carriage bolt with the shoulder ground off and a ring brazed/welded/soldered on top.

How about one of these for a replacement.
http://www.mcmaster....od-ends/=lqve4b

#20 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:15 PM


I decided to pull the four leaky chainplates, which the PO had mounded silicone caulk around to try and stop the leaks. The plan was to seal them crudely with butyl mastic until spring, when I can recore the side decks properly (too cold right now). The Ballad's chainplate arrangements are very strange & will be rationalized during the refit. Let's just say they don't entirely line up with internal bulkheads, so various trusses and SS channel are employed to put the deck penetrations where they are needed. The penetrations themselves consist of 1/2" shouldered eyebolts. One of which is pictured below, punched up a bit for contrast:

Posted Image

Are those cracks at the top thread the beginnings of crevice corrosion? I would have expected risers to propagate into the bolt body at the threads, not parallel to the shaft. Wassup with that?

Anyone have a source for eyebolts like this, in 316SS or titanium?


Well that's cool, a carriage bolt with the shoulder ground off and a ring brazed/welded/soldered on top.

How about one of these for a replacement.
http://www.mcmaster....od-ends/=lqve4b


It's not quite a carriage bolt.;) Actually a specialty shouldered eye bolt (one piece forging) with a sort of 'donut' of extra metal welded inside the eye. Presumably to increase the wire diameter of the eye (which typically runs one size under the bolt shank diameter). Or -- other theories put forward -- to center the shroud shackle more in line with the bolt shaft (reducing offset forces), or to limit the potential for the shackle binding when the leeward rigging is slack. It's a common enuf sight on older boats. Those are nifty rod ends you linked to, esp. the square-shouldered one. Wish it came in 316SS, or the 316 standard rod came with shoulders. Suncor, Wichard etc. sell 1/2" SS shouldered bolts that would work but their WLL is a titch lower than I would like. Could step up one size to 5/8", or change to Ti. Which would solve the crevice corrosion issue at the same time, but at 6x the price. Or we could buy a hatful of 316 bolts & change them out every four years. If we could accommodate the span, Wichard U-bolts are about the strongest option. The shrouds on the Ballad are inboard, so the forces on the chainplates are reasonably vertical.

Posted Image

Anyone have theories what caused the axial cracking? Some kind of stress corrosion?

#21 Diarmuid

Diarmuid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Laramie, WY, USA

Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:41 PM

Hmmmm, Bmiller. You may be on to something. Close inspection of the eyebolts suggest they are, indeed, modified carriage bolts. With some sort of thick, reinforced eye assembly neatly welded and faired to the head. Who knew? Looked like a one-piece forging until you put it under magnification. Tidy welds, at any rate.:D

Upsizing to 5/8" eyebolts will be problematic, since all the toggles are sized to fit the smaller eye. Here's the conundrum Quarter inch 1x19 wire (316SS) has a breaking load of around 8000#, but a WLL of only about 1400#. (Why the disparity?) While a good, forged 1/2" eyebolt has a WLL of 2100#, but a breaking strength of only 3500#. If we assume WLL is the controlling metric, the eyebolts are plenty strong. If we want to match breaking strengths of components, we'd need much bigger chainplates. All I know is the existing 1/2" bolts did exhibit some signs of mechanical or corrosion damage, as seen in the above photo. Rather than changing to 5/8", it might actually be cheaper to go with Ti?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users