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Refitting Fionn


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#1 Diarmuid

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:43 PM

Thanks for all your endorsements in the original thread; I thought it best to begin a new one for our questions in the long process of stripping and fitting out our new Albin Ballad. We'll be soliciting your opinions on chainplates, cabin layout, sailplan, and deck hardware in the future. Cuz y'all know more than we do.;)

But for now, until we've paid off the $ damages to date, we want to start small, with projects we can mostly do indoors. The three cockpit locker lids are currently made of plywood, with no seals or latches to hold them closed.

Posted Image

It would be nice to remake them in FRP with positive latching and watertight seals. Also, they open belowdecks, which some people consider dangerous.

What would be your favored method for scratch-building new laz covers? Could make them in ply, then glass over it; could build molds; could just form them up by hand; could start with a material like G10 for the flat portions.

Climbing down into the lockers is necessary for engine access, as things now stand. Should we still consider isolating the lazarettes from the interior?

Our other major winter project will be the rudder. It's a hollow construction & has got water in it over the years. Might have a foam core, but if so, that's pretty well toast. I'm expecting to strip it down to the stock and build back from there. Should I take a splash mould of the existing rudder, or just template it at ~eight stations, shape it in foam, and lay FG over that? Full skeg, tiller steered.

Posted Image

#2 Bob Perry

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

Diarm:
I think splash of the existing rudder would be the easiest way to go. Maybe before you rip the entire thing apart you could cut a windown in the side say 4" by 4" and inspect the foam. All rudders get water inside them eventually. There is just no way to keep that bond where the stock exits the blad watertight. That's why CF rudder are so good.

#3 Diarmuid

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

Thanks, Bob. I worry a little about the state of the rudder stock welds, inside that wet assembly. Once the rudder is pulled, I will cut into it to see what's going on. The only blisters on the whole boat are on the rudder. Interesting design: there's no stuffing box on the the rudder post. Instead, a length of radiator hose is clamped on the entry ... pipe, nipple, whaddayacallit. The hose is tall enough to finish well above the waterline. Simple.

Someone has recently replaced the prop shaft stuffing box with a PSS dripless seal, too. I so much want to make this old Penta work for us. For three or four years, anyhow.

#4 SpongeDeckSquareFoil

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:33 AM

....

What would be your favored method for scratch-building new laz covers? Could make them in ply, then glass over it; could build molds; could just form them up by hand; could start with a material like G10 for the flat portions.


As far as the covers, building molds or building in ply and covering with glass would be my shot. Not sure if either has a benefit for 3 covers. With your woodworking skills either way would probably be fine. Don't see any reason for G-10. They appear to be short enough that a small brace could be glassed in if they were flexing.

#5 Steam Flyer

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:56 AM

... ... The three cockpit locker lids are currently made of plywood, with no seals or latches to hold them closed.

Posted Image

It would be nice to remake them in FRP with positive latching and watertight seals. Also, they open belowdecks, which some people consider dangerous.

What would be your favored method for scratch-building new laz covers? Could make them in ply, then glass over it; could build molds; could just form them up by hand; could start with a material like G10 for the flat portions.

.... ...


Probably the quickest & easiest would be to staple together a cover using ply, glass the inside seams & braces, then shape the outside as you like and glass the outside. The problem with this is that you have now encapsulated wood which will rot in X time.

What I would do (and have done) is fab up the covers using foam core... same routine as wood really, except that you can use toothpicks & packing tape to do the intitial fastening of the panels together. Make sure it's braced into form solidly enough to glass the inside without having it lose shape/dimensions. The nicer thing about this is that you can give the covers deep lips to help shed water, add bracing inside, round off the outer corners to taste then glass the outside.. They will be lighter and stiffer than the plywood, and it will never ever rot. More expensive though; for a small project like the cost difference is a big percent but not so much in dollars.

Ditto on not using G10.

FB- Doug

#6 steele

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:18 AM

For the rudder have you considered cutting around the outside edges and splitting it in half? You could then dig out the old foam, inspect the post and cross bracing, and the rebuild it using the old outside skin. I have not done this, but this process has been used by other owners of my type boat and rudder and they have reported success. I have an old print article describing this, I will try to find it.

The problem with the locker covers is they are flat and water will always stand on them. Also, they have full exposure to UV and because of their location get lots of abuse. My originals were wood, and it did not matter what they were covered with, varnish, cetol, epoxy, one season would ruin whatever surface was on them. In the end they were replaced covers made of flat plastic stock with non-skid tape on top. It is not as good looking, but the time saved in maintenance has been worth it.

#7 Diarmuid

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:51 PM

Hmmm. Good idea, Steele. Might be able to at least use the old rudder skins for the baseline shape. If they are properly glassed to the stock, it may be difficult taking them off in one piece. Cheesewire, perhaps?

We might take this opportunity to make the rudder post a bit taller. It sits mighty low in the cockpit. At least one owner has moved the tiller to the rear coaming.

#8 Diarmuid

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:25 PM

I decided to pull the four leaky chainplates, which the PO had mounded silicone caulk around to try and stop the leaks. The plan was to seal them crudely with butyl mastic until spring, when I can recore the side decks properly (too cold right now). The Ballad's chainplate arrangements are very strange & will be rationalized during the refit. Let's just say they don't entirely line up with internal bulkheads, so various trusses and SS channel are employed to put the deck penetrations where they are needed. The penetrations themselves consist of 1/2" shouldered eyebolts. One of which is pictured below, punched up a bit for contrast:

Posted Image

Are those cracks at the top thread the beginnings of crevice corrosion? I would have expected risers to propagate into the bolt body at the threads, not parallel to the shaft. Wassup with that?

Anyone have a source for eyebolts like this, in 316SS or titanium?

#9 Presuming Ed

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:28 AM

Posted Image


Slightly have to wonder what the designer was thinking about when he drew that rudder profile. You can just about see tip vortices spinning off when she's sitting on the hard. Under way....??? :blink: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Good luck with the rest of the refit. Nice boat.

#10 Diarmuid

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

Supposedly the idea was to get as much blade area down deep as possible. Some strange rudder/skegs on those late 60s IOR boats. I wouldn't be surprised if Magnusson's original rudder design lacked bite downwind & this was their solution. So much freakin' drag on these old hulls, maybe another few tip vortices get lost in the noise. :P

Not sure I'm the guy to correct it, tho. We're gonna have to live with that second keel skeg & barn door.

#11 freakIRL

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:50 PM

This page may offer you some suggestions regarding a repair / rebuild of the rudder.

#12 Diarmuid

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

This page may offer you some suggestions regarding a repair / rebuild of the rudder.


Thanks for the link, Freak -- is that your blog?

So pourable closed-cell foam mix comes in densities from 2# (per cubic foot) to 16#. The former is certainly more cost effective, while the latter has better strength and water resistance. While you don't want a rudder to be too heavy, I would think you don't especially want it too buoyant, either. Any suggestions for foam density? Water's about 60lb/sqft.

And would G-Flex maybe be a good choice for where the stock enters and exits the rudder blade?

#13 Balder

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

Water's about 60lb/sqft.

IIRC salt water is 64.2lbs/Ft3
Fresh 62.4

#14 Diarmuid

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:09 PM

About. -Ish. Roughly. ;) For porpoise of comparison. I'm just wondering if rudder core is a place to shave weight on a non-racer, if it comes at the cost of non-neutral buoyancy & absorbancy. We're only talking 4-8lbs total weight difference between the densest foam and the airiest.

Rudder's off the boat. Required digging a trench in half-frozen, stony ground, but it is off. May open up that oyster today, see what pearls await us. :blink: On the positive side, last night's 60mph winds didn't knock the boat over.

#15 Diarmuid

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:25 PM

Now here's an interesting thing. We're starting to take down the cabinetry & open up those areas of the decks where stuff will go or water has got in, so they have time to dry by the time epoxy weather arrives in June. Today I made the inside cutout for the new Bomar hatch. Supposedly the core material is Divinycell -- but it looks for all the world like it was poured in place. The inner skin was suspended from the outer via fiberglass twists on a 1 x 1.5" grid, then the foam was injected. Maybe? anyone ever heard of such a construction technique?

Posted Image

Posted Image

It makes the inner skin harder than hell to get loose. Which may have been the point.

#16 sailak

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:35 AM

And would G-Flex maybe be a good choice for where the stock enters and exits the rudder blade?

Thats what I was thinking... I spread a very thin coat of G/Flex over every portion of the stainless in my rudder. Then finished rebuilding the rudder with conventional West 105 with the appropriate thickeners for the rest of the buildup. My line of thinking is that the G/Flex might have a better chance of sticking to the stainless, and due to its flex might keep the seal longer (or at least fill the gap better) than just glassing the whole works back up with regular epoxy would have done. Also applied the fillet around the stock with G/Flex rather than 5200 as I have seen suggested in some books and magazines. Got me across the Gulf of Alaska- so far so good.

#17 Diarmuid

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:27 PM

And would G-Flex maybe be a good choice for where the stock enters and exits the rudder blade?

Thats what I was thinking... I spread a very thin coat of G/Flex over every portion of the stainless in my rudder. Then finished rebuilding the rudder with conventional West 105 with the appropriate thickeners for the rest of the buildup. My line of thinking is that the G/Flex might have a better chance of sticking to the stainless, and due to its flex might keep the seal longer (or at least fill the gap better) than just glassing the whole works back up with regular epoxy would have done. Also applied the fillet around the stock with G/Flex rather than 5200 as I have seen suggested in some books and magazines. Got me across the Gulf of Alaska- so far so good.


We may try a bit of both -- G*Flex to bed the shaft, then a little 5200 for the fillet. I'm nowhere on the rudder right now -- can't decide whether to scratch build a new one, reuse the old halves, pour the foam in place, or what. No rush on it, anyhow. Coating the entire stock is an interesting idea.

From the "What's keeping yo boat off the bottom" files: here's another seacock, this from the galley sink. Which seacock was probably leaking pretty good, so someone just closed the gate valve and unhooked the hose.

Posted Image

The deeper I dig, the more obvious this is a rock-solid hull with some real dumb things done to it. Probably at the factory. Looks the the refit is going to need a longer run-up than intended.:(

#18 sailak

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:11 PM

That valve looks pretty good, er at least better than some I have seen. I had a gate valve that didn't seem to be working, and upon closer examination found no gate inside! Totally gone...

#19 bmiller

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:05 PM

I decided to pull the four leaky chainplates, which the PO had mounded silicone caulk around to try and stop the leaks. The plan was to seal them crudely with butyl mastic until spring, when I can recore the side decks properly (too cold right now). The Ballad's chainplate arrangements are very strange & will be rationalized during the refit. Let's just say they don't entirely line up with internal bulkheads, so various trusses and SS channel are employed to put the deck penetrations where they are needed. The penetrations themselves consist of 1/2" shouldered eyebolts. One of which is pictured below, punched up a bit for contrast:

Posted Image

Are those cracks at the top thread the beginnings of crevice corrosion? I would have expected risers to propagate into the bolt body at the threads, not parallel to the shaft. Wassup with that?

Anyone have a source for eyebolts like this, in 316SS or titanium?


Well that's cool, a carriage bolt with the shoulder ground off and a ring brazed/welded/soldered on top.

How about one of these for a replacement.
http://www.mcmaster....od-ends/=lqve4b

#20 Diarmuid

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:15 PM

I decided to pull the four leaky chainplates, which the PO had mounded silicone caulk around to try and stop the leaks. The plan was to seal them crudely with butyl mastic until spring, when I can recore the side decks properly (too cold right now). The Ballad's chainplate arrangements are very strange & will be rationalized during the refit. Let's just say they don't entirely line up with internal bulkheads, so various trusses and SS channel are employed to put the deck penetrations where they are needed. The penetrations themselves consist of 1/2" shouldered eyebolts. One of which is pictured below, punched up a bit for contrast:

Posted Image

Are those cracks at the top thread the beginnings of crevice corrosion? I would have expected risers to propagate into the bolt body at the threads, not parallel to the shaft. Wassup with that?

Anyone have a source for eyebolts like this, in 316SS or titanium?


Well that's cool, a carriage bolt with the shoulder ground off and a ring brazed/welded/soldered on top.

How about one of these for a replacement.
http://www.mcmaster....od-ends/=lqve4b


It's not quite a carriage bolt.;) Actually a specialty shouldered eye bolt (one piece forging) with a sort of 'donut' of extra metal welded inside the eye. Presumably to increase the wire diameter of the eye (which typically runs one size under the bolt shank diameter). Or -- other theories put forward -- to center the shroud shackle more in line with the bolt shaft (reducing offset forces), or to limit the potential for the shackle binding when the leeward rigging is slack. It's a common enuf sight on older boats. Those are nifty rod ends you linked to, esp. the square-shouldered one. Wish it came in 316SS, or the 316 standard rod came with shoulders. Suncor, Wichard etc. sell 1/2" SS shouldered bolts that would work but their WLL is a titch lower than I would like. Could step up one size to 5/8", or change to Ti. Which would solve the crevice corrosion issue at the same time, but at 6x the price. Or we could buy a hatful of 316 bolts & change them out every four years. If we could accommodate the span, Wichard U-bolts are about the strongest option. The shrouds on the Ballad are inboard, so the forces on the chainplates are reasonably vertical.

Posted Image

Anyone have theories what caused the axial cracking? Some kind of stress corrosion?

#21 Diarmuid

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:41 PM

Hmmmm, Bmiller. You may be on to something. Close inspection of the eyebolts suggest they are, indeed, modified carriage bolts. With some sort of thick, reinforced eye assembly neatly welded and faired to the head. Who knew? Looked like a one-piece forging until you put it under magnification. Tidy welds, at any rate.:D

Upsizing to 5/8" eyebolts will be problematic, since all the toggles are sized to fit the smaller eye. Here's the conundrum Quarter inch 1x19 wire (316SS) has a breaking load of around 8000#, but a WLL of only about 1400#. (Why the disparity?) While a good, forged 1/2" eyebolt has a WLL of 2100#, but a breaking strength of only 3500#. If we assume WLL is the controlling metric, the eyebolts are plenty strong. If we want to match breaking strengths of components, we'd need much bigger chainplates. All I know is the existing 1/2" bolts did exhibit some signs of mechanical or corrosion damage, as seen in the above photo. Rather than changing to 5/8", it might actually be cheaper to go with Ti?

#22 Diarmuid

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 03:22 AM

Heh -- bit of a gap there, eh? Work has occurred, tho not at the pace we'd hoped.  Also... life.  It's what happens when you aren't paying attention. :(

 

Hoping CA can school me on rope clutches.  Never used one, so we're starting from there.  Pretty much all sail control lines are coming back to the cockpit; partner has minor mobility issues, and we really like having everything right there near the tiller. On the coachroof, we've mounted #20 non-ST winches either side of the companionway.  To starboard, I am thinking a clutch farm for (inboard to out-) main halyard and three single-line reefs.

 

Anyhow, skinny hi-tech lines, low friction rings, and each reef of equal size.  The hope is we can lower the halyard to a mark, grasp all three reefing lines, and pull them all together to keep excess slack from causing mischief.  Pull relevant reef line to a mark, then winch the halyard tight. Do we even need clutches for the reef lines? And if yes, what are the preferred brands for (say) 1/4" Control DPX?

 

Port side will feature headsail controls, tho things get strange over there. All inner sails on the Albin Ballad are (historically) set flying. :blink:



#23 whinging pom

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 12:47 PM

I used to own Ballad no. 104.  Be wary of turboing them up with non strechy sails and halyards as something has got give!  In my boat's case it was the mast step.  Underneath all the glass there's steel, on my boat it had spalled away allowing the mast to drop by approx 2".There is quite a lot on the internet about this problem, though you might have to brush up your Swedish!

 

I ended up selling her for "spares or repair" as the whole hull had become a mass of stress cracks. The insurer's wouldn't cough up under latent defect. 

 

SWMBO and I had a very successful time racing the Ballad double handed. Lost out winning RORC's Myth of Malham Trophy, both class and overall by 40 seconds.  Damn!



#24 Blitz

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:56 PM

That valve looks pretty good, er at least better than some I have seen. I had a gate valve that didn't seem to be working, and upon closer examination found no gate inside! Totally gone...


Except for that big crack in it. Freeze damage?

#25 Diarmuid

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:04 PM

That valve looks pretty good, er at least better than some I have seen. I had a gate valve that didn't seem to be working, and upon closer examination found no gate inside! Totally gone...


Except for that big crack in it. Freeze damage?

Probably freeze damage.  Boat lived on Lake Michigan. Maybe marina electrolysis, too. The raw water thru hull deep in the bilge snapped off under hand pressure.

 

I used to own Ballad no. 104.  Be wary of turboing them up with non strechy sails and halyards as something has got give!  In my boat's case it was the mast step.  Underneath all the glass there's steel, on my boat it had spalled away allowing the mast to drop by approx 2".There is quite a lot on the internet about this problem, though you might have to brush up your Swedish!

 

I ended up selling her for "spares or repair" as the whole hull had become a mass of stress cracks. The insurer's wouldn't cough up under latent defect. 

 

SWMBO and I had a very successful time racing the Ballad double handed. Lost out winning RORC's Myth of Malham Trophy, both class and overall by 40 seconds.  Damn!

Yup, WP -- we're deep into that issue. :) I dithered a little over cutting open the sole, but your story and those of a couple other Ballad owners convinced me to inspect the mast step truss.  Good thing! Here's the rusty truss in situ:

12957369285_5c238c2d21.jpg

...and after chiseling it out of the resin it's cast into:

14065454358_f65ce3571e.jpg

 

Aaaaaand that's why your lovely Ballad broke. :( :( :( Mild steel in the bilge?  Oh yeah.  That'll work fine.

 

An improved design prototype is with a local welder, to be built in stainless.  I think 3/8" aluminum might be better, but he's more comfortable welding SS.

14935285518_4e54cdf24d.jpg

 

It's not that awful of a job digging it out; as boat repairs go, not that expensive to replace.  But it sits there forty years, quietly rotting, impossible to inspect.... I figure it's the Ballad equivalent of aging keel bolts, only slightly easier to fix. The other big issue with these boats -- main bulkheads adrift -- has been addressed at the same time. The plywood was originally bolted to (hefty) tabbing on one side, no adhesive.  Plywood compresses, nuts vibrate loose, and suddenly there's nothing holding the hull in shape. Now the bulkheads are epoxied to the old tabs, tabbed on the opposing face, and will be re-bolted thru both. Also attached to the side decks and overhead, which wasn't the case before.

15033399327_364c0b8721.jpg



#26 SemiSalt

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:11 PM

Once upon a time when I was in the market for a boat, I looked at ads for all the Ballads for sale. I remember pictures showing visible problems with the main bulkhead, and pictures showing that the wood around the chainplates had been removed.



#27 whinging pom

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:25 PM

Diarmud, those bulkheads look really solid. God knows what Magnusson and Albin were smoking when they thought up that bolted flange system.



#28 Diarmuid

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:58 PM

Diarmud, those bulkheads look really solid. God knows what Magnusson and Albin were smoking when they thought up that bolted flange system.

We do have some advantages over 1970s production builders. ;) Nice fat biaxial tapes, epoxy resins, time.... These are good boats, probably every similar boat has these oddities sprinkled about. I figure we'll deal with the known shortcomings; seek out any hidden ones; and make the whole thing better than it came from the factory.

 

Agree they had pretty good dope in Sweden c.1972. :P

 

Once upon a time when I was in the market for a boat, I looked at ads for all the Ballads for sale. I remember pictures showing visible problems with the main bulkhead, and pictures showing that the wood around the chainplates had been removed.

Like most boats this age, chainplate leaks are endemic.  Which is sorta unnecessary in this case, cuz the Ballad's chainplates have to be about the easiest to service of any boat out there! They are (or were) simple SS eyebolts thru the deck sandwich, quite easy to pull, inspect, and re-bed.  Some photos up-thread of the bolts.  But if an owner didn't attend to them, the bolts could ovalize their holes over time and leak.  The ones attached to the main bulkheads were hidden behind minor furniture & tended to cause the most damage before anyone caught them.  It also doesn't help that the actual chainplate holes didn't coincide so good with their core reinforcement:

 

9420658473_32fff232f9.jpg

 

I have a fabricator's 'map' of the deck structure marked with wire runs, core reinforcement, hardware locations, etc.  It's amusing as a piece of fiction. The new chainplates will pass thru 4"x4"x1" phenolic squares and have little raised pads on deck to shed water. :)



#29 steele

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 07:03 PM

Heh -- bit of a gap there, eh? Work has occurred, tho not at the pace we'd hoped.  Also... life.  It's what happens when you aren't paying attention. :(

 

Hoping CA can school me on rope clutches.  Never used one, so we're starting from there.  Pretty much all sail control lines are coming back to the cockpit; partner has minor mobility issues, and we really like having everything right there near the tiller. On the coachroof, we've mounted #20 non-ST winches either side of the companionway.  To starboard, I am thinking a clutch farm for (inboard to out-) main halyard and three single-line reefs.

 

Anyhow, skinny hi-tech lines, low friction rings, and each reef of equal size.  The hope is we can lower the halyard to a mark, grasp all three reefing lines, and pull them all together to keep excess slack from causing mischief.  Pull relevant reef line to a mark, then winch the halyard tight. Do we even need clutches for the reef lines? And if yes, what are the preferred brands for (say) 1/4" Control DPX?

 

Port side will feature headsail controls, tho things get strange over there. All inner sails on the Albin Ballad are (historically) set flying. :blink:

Practicle sailor has a recent article on clutches, I thought it was a good evaluation.  One question, do you need 3 reefs on a small main like yours?  And if you do, do you need all 3 to be rigged at all times?  Going to two would save time money and cockpit clutter.  On my 30 foot small mained boat I do need to use the winch when reefing in a blow to tighten the leach, although I am not using high tech line.



#30 Diarmuid

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 11:04 PM

One question, do you need 3 reefs on a small main like yours?  And if you do, do you need all 3 to be rigged at all times?  Going to two would save time money and cockpit clutter.  On my 30 foot small mained boat I do need to use the winch when reefing in a blow to tighten the leach, although I am not using high tech line.

No idea, Steele.  The main is a silly little thing, only 9' along the boom. What's interesting with these high-aspect sails, tho, is that they diminish comparatively slowly as you reef them. Full main is 171sqft; first reef takes out about 34% of that area, reduces us to 112sqft.  Second removes another 20% of original area, to 76sqft.  A third (theoretical) reef removes another 17%, down to 48sqft.  That area exactly matches our storm jib. We won't carry a trysail.

 

Do you reef using single line, double line, or slab?

 

My (completely untested) feeling is that around the time you start eyeballing that third reef & thinking it might be a good idea, conditions are such that reeving a line thru it is desperate work. Rumor has it people used to keep light line, like monofiliment, thru their upper reef points as a messenger. But that was before Dyneema came along.:) What we need is a clutch or jammer or cleat that can handle skinny, slippery cordage.

 

I'm probably overthinking things, as usual.



#31 Ishmael

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:34 AM

One question, do you need 3 reefs on a small main like yours?  And if you do, do you need all 3 to be rigged at all times?  Going to two would save time money and cockpit clutter.  On my 30 foot small mained boat I do need to use the winch when reefing in a blow to tighten the leach, although I am not using high tech line.

No idea, Steele.  The main is a silly little thing, only 9' along the boom. What's interesting with these high-aspect sails, tho, is that they diminish comparatively slowly as you reef them. Full main is 171sqft; first reef takes out about 34% of that area, reduces us to 112sqft.  Second removes another 20% of original area, to 76sqft.  A third (theoretical) reef removes another 17%, down to 48sqft.  That area exactly matches our storm jib. We won't carry a trysail.

 

Do you reef using single line, double line, or slab?

 

My (completely untested) feeling is that around the time you start eyeballing that third reef & thinking it might be a good idea, conditions are such that reeving a line thru it is desperate work. Rumor has it people used to keep light line, like monofiliment, thru their upper reef points as a messenger. But that was before Dyneema came along. :) What we need is a clutch or jammer or cleat that can handle skinny, slippery cordage.

 

I'm probably overthinking things, as usual.

 

All you need is a cover on the skinny stuff where it goes through the clutch. I like Lewmars and Spinlock.

Edit: Assuming the cover didn't end up at the cringle, defeating the purpose.



#32 Weyalan

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:58 AM

Having lost a rudder on our boat, I'd be very suspicious of your old, foam core rudder, with moisture issues. In our case, the rudder stock looked absolutely fine, but it broke about 4" - 5" inside the blade



#33 froggie

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 01:05 AM

I decided to pull the four leaky chainplates, which the PO had mounded silicone caulk around to try and stop the leaks. The plan was to seal them crudely with butyl mastic until spring, when I can recore the side decks properly (too cold right now). The Ballad's chainplate arrangements are very strange & will be rationalized during the refit. Let's just say they don't entirely line up with internal bulkheads, so various trusses and SS channel are employed to put the deck penetrations where they are needed. The penetrations themselves consist of 1/2" shouldered eyebolts. One of which is pictured below, punched up a bit for contrast:

8218898148_8a6bc2f256_z.jpg

Are those cracks at the top thread the beginnings of crevice corrosion? I would have expected risers to propagate into the bolt body at the threads, not parallel to the shaft. Wassup with that?

Anyone have a source for eyebolts like this, in 316SS or titanium?

I realize that this is well after the fact, but those 'lines' under the bolt head look an awful lot like file marks to me, possibly from when they filed away the carriage bolt corners. doesn't look like cracks of any sort.

And I suspect that the cracks at the end of the threads are from when the threads were cut.

I could be wrong, of course - and since they hold the rig up you might want to get them X-rayed.



#34 Diarmuid

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:31 AM

Having lost a rudder on our boat, I'd be very suspicious of your old, foam core rudder, with moisture issues. In our case, the rudder stock looked absolutely fine, but it broke about 4" - 5" inside the blade

Which boat did you lose the rudder on, Weyalan? Events have outrun reporting: I opened the old rudder like an oyster, didn't much like what I saw, & will be scratch-building an entirely new one, with improved stock & various water-proofing attempts. the laminates on the old one were blistered & had enuf shoddy repairs, they were not worth saving.  Carving a new high-density foam blank & wrapping it in glass will be easier than saving the old rudder.

 

I realize that this is well after the fact, but those 'lines' under the bolt head look an awful lot like file marks to me, possibly from when they filed away the carriage bolt corners. doesn't look like cracks of any sort.
 

And I suspect that the cracks at the end of the threads are from when the threads were cut.

I could be wrong, of course - and since they hold the rig up you might want to get them X-rayed.

The axial cracks are at the start of the threads and span as many as five threads, as well as propagating into the unthreaded portion.  Never seen anything like it in a steel bolt.  We're replacing the forward and cap shroud eyebolts with some nice new forged Suncors. The aft lower shrouds now coincide with proper bulkheads -- no more pilot berths! So after much dithering, I've fabricated a couple 36"l x 1.25"w x0.25"t chainplates of 316L flat stock.  Conservatively twice the breaking load & 10x WLL of the wire. :) While making them, I learned that cobalt drill bits are really worth the $$ for drilling stainless. :)



#35 Weyalan

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:46 AM

Having lost a rudder on our boat, I'd be very suspicious of your old, foam core rudder, with moisture issues. In our case, the rudder stock looked absolutely fine, but it broke about 4" - 5" inside the blade

Which boat did you lose the rudder on, Weyalan? Events have outrun reporting: I opened the old rudder like an oyster, didn't much like what I saw, & will be scratch-building an entirely new one, with improved stock & various water-proofing attempts. the laminates on the old one were blistered & had enuf shoddy repairs, they were not worth saving.  Carving a new high-density foam blank & wrapping it in glass will be easier than saving the old rudder.

Boat is a 1985 IOR 1-tonner.

Rudder was a foam cored glass blade on a stainless steel stock.

Rudder loss was during a multi-day offshore race back in 2009.

Particularly frustrating since we had pulled and carefully (visually) inspected the rudder prior to the race - we also got a couple of local shipwrights to cast their eyes over it - neither of whom raised any concern. To the naked eye everything looked fine but, as I said, the stainless steel rudder stock broke about 4" into the blade and this was impossible to inspect (without spending more than the value of the rudder). 



#36 steele

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 06:13 AM

One question, do you need 3 reefs on a small main like yours?  And if you do, do you need all 3 to be rigged at all times?  Going to two would save time money and cockpit clutter.  On my 30 foot small mained boat I do need to use the winch when reefing in a blow to tighten the leach, although I am not using high tech line.

No idea, Steele.  The main is a silly little thing, only 9' along the boom. What's interesting with these high-aspect sails, tho, is that they diminish comparatively slowly as you reef them. Full main is 171sqft; first reef takes out about 34% of that area, reduces us to 112sqft.  Second removes another 20% of original area, to 76sqft.  A third (theoretical) reef removes another 17%, down to 48sqft.  That area exactly matches our storm jib. We won't carry a trysail.

 

Do you reef using single line, double line, or slab?

 

My (completely untested) feeling is that around the time you start eyeballing that third reef & thinking it might be a good idea, conditions are such that reeving a line thru it is desperate work. Rumor has it people used to keep light line, like monofiliment, thru their upper reef points as a messenger. But that was before Dyneema came along. :) What we need is a clutch or jammer or cleat that can handle skinny, slippery cordage.

 

I'm probably overthinking things, as usual.

You are not necessarily overthinking things, your point about a high aspect sail is a good one.  I depends where and how you sail. If you are in an area with sudden and severe changes in wind the added margin of safety may be worth it.  Another option would be to go with one small reef, one deep one, and just put up with not having an ideal situation in moderate wind.

 

I have 2 line slab reefing, but using older line, older blocks and just running rope through the cringles.  It seems that with a more up do date set up and some help from a more experienced sailor than I a single line system would work.  I suspect with a single line system a winch will be needed, but again I hope someone with more experience will chime in.



#37 Diarmuid

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 11:27 PM

Spinlock's XAS-408 can handle lines as small as 5/32" and claims good strength.  Antal has a clutch for 1/4" lines that uses a bronze cam rather than dominoes. Any opinions on which is more likely to work with single braid?

 

Where else have we got to ... ah, hatches and ports mostly sorted out. Ventilation and natural lighting was pretty minumal on these old Nordic racers.  We're moving the head back to the nav station & have built a composting/desiccating unit which (so far) has passed its field trials.  The internals still need work, such as perfecting the Ladybitstm funnel and adding a ShitStirtm device. Might have to poll Sailing Anarchy for ideas on the latter. :P Also want to wire up two conductive tapes on the funnel stem, so a really bright LED will turn on at eye level when the 1 gallon pee bottle is nearly full.

 

Side decks had been peeled on the underside, to dry out the foam & remove the rotted genoa track core (formerly 3/4" rift-sawn fir; latterly 'gravy'). They are now re-cored and re-skinned.  Extremely happy with the results, tho hanging 18oz biaxial cloth overhead is tough work. And the new water tank is finished:

13971601662_ee3561dd06.jpg

15075575270_0a98e7c789.jpg

 

We removed the jog on the port side bulkhead because it wasn't doing anything except bruising legs -- was not attached to the hull in any fashion.  So I just sawed it down plumb and broke over the foot of the settee at a 30* angle, to make edging into the forepeak easier.

15075705637_affe1dfbb5.jpg

 

It feels good to reach the woodwork phase, even if some of it needs to come back out for more hull work. It's the only part of the refit where I'm overqualified. ;)



#38 vjm

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 12:14 AM

That Wee Light (pat. pend., I assume) is a fantastic innovation. Interested to see how it pans out.

#39 Bull City

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 09:18 PM

Diarmuid,

 

Have you been working too hard to post anything?

 

BC



#40 Alcatraz5768

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 05:50 PM

Good work.

#41 Diarmuid

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 06:35 PM

That Wee Light (pat. pend., I assume) is a fantastic innovation. Interested to see how it pans out.

Wee Light is a good name.  I'd been thinking DryAnklstm. How sick are we here? I've already tested the impedance of human urine. :unsure: Sort of a varistor, based on diet and hydration level.  We'll need circuitry for that. Wee Light shall belong to the public domain (prior art established here!); some things are too important for patent trolling.

 

 

Diarmuid,

 

Have you been working too hard to post anything?

 

BC

Yes, but unfortunately that means work-work, rather than boat work.  Overhauling some winches, tho.  The primaries are Lewmar 'England' 40s, tho slightly different outside because they span 1971/72. Both have 22mm winch handle sockets & will not accept the standard 24mm 'Barlow' handle. Who the hell wants to carry two different sized handles? & by the lack of a 'Barlow' handle on board, I'm betting the PO never used the secondary winches.

 

I've already filed one of the spindles to 24mm, & the result is very good; dreading the second one.  It is hard work, filing stainless. BTW, if anyone with the old 22mm pattern wants a square lug handle to fit, lemme know; it's v. heavy & suited for clubbing bill fish.

Good work.

Thanks, A.  A lot of this is new-skill stuff,or just another scale from what I'm used to. Appreciate the collective knowledge of places like this; without it, I just careen off into the weeds.






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