19 replies to this topic

[allen]

Now that version 1 is out, I am focusing on version 2. I would like to hear from potential users as to what they want. The guiding features (things that are not going to change) are 1) the displays are easy to read in bright light (high contrast bright displays), text based (no maps or colors), and 2) difficult to make mistakes during race conditions so not lots of unrelated buttons on one screen ie. not cluttered and no delete all on the main screen and such.

Version 1 focused on two things 1) Time to line based on speed and approach measured during a practice start, and 2) Wayponts to help you get around the course.

Version 2 has all the version 1 features plus 1) Choice of start based on distance to the line rather than time. It has a nice angle to the line readout (0 to 90 degrees regardless of heading) to make sailing a reciprocal course easy and 2) Multiple waypoing files and the ability to edit waypoints and start line positions from withing the app. 3) bow offset. 4) Cleaned up menus.

I would like to hear from potential users about what features you would like to see.

Here is the preliminary version 2 Start-Meters screen. Note that version 2 can do everything version 1 can do including Start-Time so that rather than on hitting a gun button you just enter the race start time although you can do there now there as well


Nexus-One phone with Startline Version2 Start-Meters screen


Remember, this is a computer program. It can do what people what. I have incorporated most features that people have asked for. I won't implement everything but probably 90% of what is asked for so ask away. NOTE: I will not be adding the time to the line based on speed and heading during the approach found in other apps until I can figure out an auto algorithm works during a real race. I say this as the person who the algorithm used in some of the other apps. It is, however, something I am working on and will add if and when I have a contribution to make there.

On the above screen. Hitting Gun/Sync will start the timer. Long pressing it will add 1 second. Long pressing if it is running will reset it to 5 minutes. Pressing it while it is running will sync it to the nearest minute. For more functionality, there is a timer screen where you can set start times, add or subtract minutes or seconds so that if you sync 2 seconds off, you don't have to re-sync, just add 2 seconds to the display. At 30 seconds, the program auto switches to waypoint mode but if you return it will not leave the screen. This is useful during a postponement The smaller bottom display sows the target approach which is only used to calculate the bow offset effect. The number on the right is the GPS accuracy right now in feet but perhaps it should be in meters - let me know.

PM or reply to the post with suggestions.

Allen
L-36.com

[Heriberto]

Add a seven day free trial version. Why would people pay $5 to beta test? Otherwise this thread is an advertisement, so buy an ad.

[allen]

Add a seven day free trial version. Why would people pay $5 to beta test? Otherwise this thread is an advertisement, so buy an ad.

That is a great suggestion. I will do that as soon as version 2 is ready. Thanks so much for the suggestion.

I beta tested version 1 with a number of people until it worked under race conditions. But I am going to deal with version 2 differently.

Also, I should have linked the capabilities of Version 1. Here it is http://L-36.com/startline.php I think you can see what it does from that without buying anything. If you can afford the $5, fine. If not, read the page I linked. By the way, there is no money to be made in $5 apps for Android phones for racing sailboats. The market is just too small.


Allen
L-36.com

[Mambo Kings]

Add a seven day free trial version. Why would people pay $5 to beta test? Otherwise this thread is an advertisement, so buy an ad.

That is a great suggestion. I will do that as soon as version 2 is ready. Thanks so much for the suggestion.

I beta tested version 1 with a number of people until it worked under race conditions. But I am going to deal with version 2 differently.

Also, I should have linked the capabilities of Version 1. Here it is http://L-36.com/startline.php I think you can see what it does from that without buying anything. If you can afford the $5, fine. If not, read the page I linked. By the way, there is no money to be made in $5 apps for Android phones for racing sailboats. The market is just too small.


Allen
L-36.com

Allen,

I spent a solid half hour reading through your website/blog and thinking about your ap. I just wanted to say that it is a very cool and well thought thru process.
I have instructed Santa to get me a pro-start because on a Viper there is no chance to look at phones or tablets so its time, distance and instincts and much more like a dinghy start. But I like your thought process so much that Im going to buy the ap anyway and look fwd to beta testing version 2 if I get a chance to sail on bigger boats.

Likes :
Black and White. Emphasis on clear and easy to read rather than
Meets the challenge of coverting distance to time head on and has really thought thru the variables in a typical start process. Converts the information to the thought process of a starting skipper. Mentally we are thinking,- "Time to start" -("time before I make my approach" +"time to line on approach") = time to burn. Eg for a boat start I often come down the line on port, sail into the box and I like flip onto stbd lined up for the boat with about 50 seconds to go. I am pretty good at judging that turning corner when I am 50 seconds from the line.....the trick is to get there with 50 seconds to go.

Are you going to do an ap for apple? I am on my third droid phone and Ive hated their lousy reliability and terrible battery life. If I get a tablet, I think Im going to have to go for the ipad.

[allen]

Add a seven day free trial version. Why would people pay $5 to beta test? Otherwise this thread is an advertisement, so buy an ad.

That is a great suggestion. I will do that as soon as version 2 is ready. Thanks so much for the suggestion.

I beta tested version 1 with a number of people until it worked under race conditions. But I am going to deal with version 2 differently.

Also, I should have linked the capabilities of Version 1. Here it is http://L-36.com/startline.php I think you can see what it does from that without buying anything. If you can afford the $5, fine. If not, read the page I linked. By the way, there is no money to be made in $5 apps for Android phones for racing sailboats. The market is just too small.


Allen
L-36.com

Allen,

I spent a solid half hour reading through your website/blog and thinking about your ap. I just wanted to say that it is a very cool and well thought thru process.
I have instructed Santa to get me a pro-start because on a Viper there is no chance to look at phones or tablets so its time, distance and instincts and much more like a dinghy start. But I like your thought process so much that Im going to buy the ap anyway and look fwd to beta testing version 2 if I get a chance to sail on bigger boats.

Likes :
Black and White. Emphasis on clear and easy to read rather than
Meets the challenge of coverting distance to time head on and has really thought thru the variables in a typical start process. Converts the information to the thought process of a starting skipper. Mentally we are thinking,- "Time to start" -("time before I make my approach" +"time to line on approach") = time to burn. Eg for a boat start I often come down the line on port, sail into the box and I like flip onto stbd lined up for the boat with about 50 seconds to go. I am pretty good at judging that turning corner when I am 50 seconds from the line.....the trick is to get there with 50 seconds to go.

Are you going to do an ap for apple? I am on my third droid phone and Ive hated their lousy reliability and terrible battery life. If I get a tablet, I think Im going to have to go for the ipad.

Thank you so much for the kind words. I understand what you are saying about the pro start. I just do not see a way to use this phone app on a small boat where you have to mount it above deck. The sunlight viability of this app is best in class but that class is not good enough for bulkhead mounting. That is why I have a Rock Box Blue and am hoping to work with the developer to get some of these features in to the Rock Box Blue. I know that box is upgradable so you might consider it when you make your buying decision. I have a review of it on my web site HERE As I have a larger boat, it wasn't that helpful for me the way it is for the start but I think it will be as time goes on and updates are made.

In terms of iPhone. No plans to develop for that platform. I have 3 Android phones and two tablets. I would offer these options.

A Nexus-7 is $200 for a pretty nice tablet. Too big to hand hold in a race though. I just got a Nexus-4. Very nice phone and you might consider that. If you want just something for hand held Nexus apps that you might not worry about getting wet a Nexus-One works fine and is about $100 on eBay. I covered one with "Million Dollar Tape" that I bought for $25 on eBay and it made it water repellent and came off clean as could be. But if you have several, perhaps just a new battery.

I liked the idea of releasing a free trial version of the version 2. I will be doing that. It will time out on a fixed date, probably something like 10 days as a week seemed a but short. Anyone who bought version 1 will get version 2 for free in a version that does not time out after I get all the feature requests in.

Let me just give a point about my response to feature requests. If that app already does it, I point that out. In most cases, the feature request is for something the app doesn't do. On my weather app, I added features requested by the Coast Guard so now the Coast Guard uses the L-36.com weather page for search and rescue. One of the best emails I got was something to the effect of "thank you for your app. We use it to save lives". Made my day. A lot of the features, including the latest change are for the Coast Guard. Unforgettably it is US only (Alaska to Guam and PUrto Ricco all US territories).

In terms of racing. I developed this app racing. I went through many phases and tried to incorporate what I learned in each phase into the app. 1) I could not see the display. 2) I could see the display but could not see if I hit the button or not (not good feedback) 3) I got the line set but the algorithm did not work under race conditions where you are not always heading straight toward the line because you are early or there are other boats. 4) Like you said, you are fine if you are at the right spot at 50 seconds to go but you burn 30 seconds because you are 5 seconds early. Getting to the right spot with 50 seconds to go is critical and the app was designed so you could set up with enough time to go that you could do something about it.

For a tablet, I don't think the Nexus-7 at $199 will disappointing you. The Samsung Tab-2 like I have are even cheaper. I think they are about $179 at Costco and this weekend have a $70 off coupon. Does that make them $100? Too good to be true. Mounted below they work great. I really like mine. Just got a Nexus-10 as well and the Samsung is just fine for this app. The 10 is really too big.

Allen
L-36.com

[allen]

Add a seven day free trial version. Why would people pay $5 to beta test? Otherwise this thread is an advertisement, so buy an ad.

I took your suggestion and posted a FREE version of StartLine pre-release in the Google Play store. It is good for over a week as a week seemed a bit short. There are some differences with the released version. Version 2 has more traditional start features more like Velocitec. It also has more ClearStart like timing options. I still like the GPS based start time option and it is still there but the ability to hit a "Gun" button at the 5 minute gun is there. Let me explain the "Gun/Sync" button.

When you first enter the Start-Meters screen the time to start will be 5:00 Hitting the Gun/Sync button will start the timer counting down. A long press when the timer is stopped will add 1 minute to the time to start. A long press when the timer is running will reset it to 5:00. If the timer is running, a short press will sync the time to the nearest minute. If the timer is past zero (counting up instead of down) hitting the button will start the timer at 5:00 so the first thing you will see after hitting the button will be 4:59 and it will then count down. If you want to do anything more complicated, the "Set Start Time" screen allows you to add or subtract minutes or hours or set a start time, clear the seconds, etc. One thing you might find useful is if you hit the sync button but are off a little but know the RC uses GPS time, go to the Start Timer screen. If you see you are off by a couple of seconds you can clear them. If at the 4 minute gun you see you are 1 second slow, you can also add 1 second without throwing all the timing off.

The main app is still there at $4.99 and will be updated to version 2 as soon as I get everyone's inputs. So far the response has been good but clearly limited. This is probably a small market in that it is sitting between people who need waterproof gear and people using Expedition on a laptop in the Nav station. If you are between them, I am committed to making this the best stand along GPS based racing app there is.

Allen

[Heriberto]

Hey,

Didn't mean that to sound too critical. A functioning app of this kind would be worth a lot more than $5 to me, and I'm sure many others with the right features. Not asking you to raise your price either!

[Heriberto]

Couple of questions straight off without downloading:

Can you move to media?

Is the rest of the screen except the buttons deactivated so you don't have accidental inputs?

Would it be possible to sync on the release of the button rather than the touch of the button? So that if you knew you were off time, you long touch the button, it resets to the next time in the sequence (or you could scroll through sequence times) and stops, then when you are getting close to the sequence, you press and hold, when the gun goes off you release and it starts up synced. It always seems to me that it is easier to get the touch screen buttons to react in this way rather than tapping. Kind of like releasing birds in Angry Birds.

Maybe some options for button sizes for sailing gloves/no sailing gloves?

Can you make it so it continues even if you lock/shutdown the screen?

Please let it exit correctly so it doesn't tie up memory.

The best app ever for Android is Shush! I wish every app was as cleanly written. The circular time set feature on that app is really cool also!

[allen]

Hey,

Didn't mean that to sound too critical. A functioning app of this kind would be worth a lot more than $5 to me, and I'm sure many others with the right features. Not asking you to raise your price either!

Personally I think it is worth about $100 and certainly if you consider the time involved in developing it that is the kind of cost that is in there. I thought about what to price it and perhaps I picked a number that is too low. I decided it would be better to have a lot of people pay a small price than have a few pay a large price. Maybe my mistake is your gain. I can tell you that this one works and nothing else I tried did.

What I did was look at the number of users of the other apps vs price and found that the cheaper ones sold a lot more. By the way, the developer of the racing sailing app with the largest user base is going to use mine next season. That should tell you something.

Allen

[allen]

Couple of questions straight off without downloading:

Can you move to media?

Is the rest of the screen except the buttons deactivated so you don't have accidental inputs?

Would it be possible to sync on the release of the button rather than the touch of the button? So that if you knew you were off time, you long touch the button, it resets to the next time in the sequence (or you could scroll through sequence times) and stops, then when you are getting close to the sequence, you press and hold, when the gun goes off you release and it starts up synced. It always seems to me that it is easier to get the touch screen buttons to react in this way rather than tapping. Kind of like releasing birds in Angry Birds.

Maybe some options for button sizes for sailing gloves/no sailing gloves?

Can you make it so it continues even if you lock/shutdown the screen?

Please let it exit correctly so it doesn't tie up memory.

The best app ever for Android is Shush! I wish every app was as cleanly written. The circular time set feature on that app is really cool also!

The app has large buttons and displays so that it is easy to use with gloves on. That was one of the design goals. On the tablet version the displays get much larger but the buttons do not as the tablet is intended to be used with a remote but they are still large enough to use with gloves. Try it, if you find them too small, I will make them larger.

The buttons are also placed so that you can't hit them accidentally. For example, in the race start screens, there are only two buttons and they are at the top of the screen. The buttons were also placed so that if you hit one and then hit the same spot again, which would be on another screen, no harm is done. Only the buttons are active, the rest of the screen is not.

Basically, you are asking about things I thought a lot about. Remember, I used this in races and during a race I am incredible stupid and clumsy. It was a huge problem with the other apps I tried so I addressed it as best I could. It was the second largest problem I had in using other apps. The largest being I could not see the display in the sunlight.

If you turn off the phone, the GPS goes off so if you are not using an external bluetooth GPS it may take some time for that to come back. That saves battery life. If the program completely stops, like you remove your battery and restart the phone, the waypoints have been saved to the SDCard so you have not lost anything.

I think you will find the buttons responsive. On the GUN button. That feature is in there but in general if your RC uses GPS time to start the race, you don't have to hit the GUN button. The timer is just right. That has been my experience on every race. The gun goes off and the display is reading 5:00 and counting down without hitting anything.

Try it, you have 11 days left.

Allen
L-36.com

[allen]

On the question of button size. The really important buttons when using the app are the buttons to ping the line. Remember that the start time takes care of itself if the RC uses GPS time, which all of them do around here, so you do not have to hit any buttons at the gun. You just check that it is right. If you see that it is off by, say, 2 seconds, just to to the Set Start Time screen and add or subtract the two seconds. I really do not recommend using the GUN button but I added it for completeness in V2.

Check this photo out and tell me if the button is large enough. On my phone, the button is 3/4 inch high and 2 inches wide. (19mm x 50mm). The lettering labeling the button is 1/2 inch high (12mm) and I included an arrow so the chance of pinging the wrong end of the line is reduced. In addition, the top readout (the one that now says Ready) will show the distance to the pinged point as soon as you ping it. The second readout shows the direction. This gives you instant feedback that you got the ping location correct. The button happens to respond to the release motion. It turns colors when you touch it so you know you touched it. When you release it, our ping is recorded. The app will leave the ping screen after 20 seconds so you don't have to even press a button after you ping a mark. That reduces the chance you will hit the wrong button. Finally, there is no way to re-ping from other screens so you can't do that by accident either.

As a note, the time that the ping is recorded is interpolated between GPS measurements so that even thought the GPS takes 1 reading a second, that does not become an error. In addition, the GPS position is compensated for the speed of the boat so that the delay associated with the GPS processing time is also not an error.

Every ping is recorded on the SDCard so you can look later and see where the line was and what you did.

Allen
L-36.com

[Heriberto]

Thanks Allen,

My next opportunity to race is Ft.L-KW in a few weeks. I'll try to give it a simulated run off the water, but that is always a little weird with limited value. As for button response, I'm using (and will be upgrading from) a Droid X2 with a lot of old programs so the button response comes from the phones problems, not programs. At the Wayzata YC here, they don't use GPS time much, since they have a lot of race sequences, also lots of postponements for course adjustments. You should pm somebody like dontcallmejudge, because his input would be really helpful.

The Panasonic A1 Android Toughpad apparently is now shipping in the Australian market, so hopefully it will be shipping here in the US soon. I will be ordering one as soon as my supplier has notice they are no longer vaporware. Would be awesome to see how that works!

[allen]

Thanks Allen,

My next opportunity to race is Ft.L-KW in a few weeks. I'll try to give it a simulated run off the water, but that is always a little weird with limited value. As for button response, I'm using (and will be upgrading from) a Droid X2 with a lot of old programs so the button response comes from the phones problems, not programs. At the Wayzata YC here, they don't use GPS time much, since they have a lot of race sequences, also lots of postponements for course adjustments. You should pm somebody like dontcallmejudge, because his input would be really helpful.

The Panasonic A1 Android Toughpad apparently is now shipping in the Australian market, so hopefully it will be shipping here in the US soon. I will be ordering one as soon as my supplier has notice they are no longer vaporware. Would be awesome to see how that works!

I had a postponement on my last race (about 2 hours). We got an announcement that the race would start in about 6 minutes so I set the start time so show 5:xx and when the gun sounded I was right on. But they used GPS time. There was one race where I was not using GPS time because that was before I got the developer of Bluetooth GPS Provider to modify his program to report GPS time. I just hit the SYNC button and then adjusted the start time to read 4:xx. The thing is, hitting +1 min or -1min does not reset the seconds so you do not get out of sync. But now there is a 5:00 start time and a GUN button. That button is 10mm by 13mm on the Set Start Time screen. I will make it bigger and post the update.

By the way, every time someone comes up with a good suggestion, everyone gets another free week on the pre-release version.

Allen
L-36.com

[allen]

I just uploaded a version with bigger buttons on the Gun and Sync within the Set Start Time page. It should be active in about an hour. Thanks for the suggestion. This is a good change.

Allen
L-36.com

[allen]

Version 2 is released. It includes all the features in the free version along with a much improved wind shift function, better filtering, and a few UI changes.

The original request in this forum was for a free one week trial. There is one week left on the free version as of today after which the free version will close immediately upon getting GPS lock. It will be removed from Google Play later today or tomorrow.

Allen
L-36.com

[Heriberto]

Oh, I thought the software, especially early beta versions, would (or should) be free for a week after you download, not for a week from last week. I understand wanting to be paid, but if it was me I believe I would get more sales if I was confident that after trying it for a few days, people would pay to keep using it. If they didn't, it meant the app wasn't right and why should people pay for software that doesn't work for them or on their device?

[allen]

Oh, I thought the software, especially early beta versions, would (or should) be free for a week after you download, not for a week from last week. I understand wanting to be paid, but if it was me I believe I would get more sales if I was confident that after trying it for a few days, people would pay to keep using it. If they didn't, it meant the app wasn't right and why should people pay for software that doesn't work for them or on their device?

The software was free for at least a week for anyone who downloaded it. It was free for more than a week and when there was a week left, I unpublished it. You got more than you asked for. What is it you want?

The truth is that there seems to be a bug in Eclipse, the software development environment, that does not allow me to easily publish trial versions. To do that, I need to manually edit every file. I would rather work on new features but if there is some special need please let me know.

This is not an early beta version. This software was in beta and being used on the race course by multiple people this summer. For example, the author of a popular (more than 1,000 paid users) race app is a StartLine user and raced this summer with StartLine. He has purchased StartLine and intends to use it for his racing instead of his own. What I released free was an early version of one new feature. I called it early beta to make sure nobody who wanted a version that would not time out would download it. If you want some serious race software like this, buy it. If you can't afford what is less than the return postage on a purchased device then perhaps this app may not be for you. You do get 15 minutes free for anything on Google Play but make sure your GPS is locked before you download it because it doesn't do much without GPS (GPS will re-lock quickly). In those 15 minutes you can see how easy it is to see the display in bright conditions and see the general layout of the UI and press a few buttons. Obviously 15 minutes is too short but if you are going to use it in a race, $5 is nothing.

I am also happy to answer any questions about how StartLine works.

Fair?

Allen
L-36.com

[allen]

When I say $5 is nothing let me put that in context as I know there are a lot of free apps out there and nobody likes to part with $5. I just bought a new spinnaker. Nice AIRX-600/700 combination. So in the context of racing, $5 is nothing. And if you think I am going to make any serious money on this app compared to the time I am putting into it, $5 is nothing.

[Heriberto]

Sorry. I wasn't looking for an argument, or asking for anything. You asked for suggestions. I was just suggesting that a free trial is a common model for all sorts of software. It isn't like you would be giving it away, people would still have to buy if they continued using it. Even a 1 day free trial would be fine. Just so people knew it worked on their device.

But that's just my suggestion, and I was unaware of your technical difficulties with that, don't gotta.

[allen]

Heriberto, I misunderstood you, sorry. I thought you wanted to try the software yourself. I probably came on a bit strong as I do not consider what I am selling beta software and I think $5 is extremely cheap for what it does.

Google has a 15 minute exchange policy and that is enough time to do a quick trial. Just make sure your GPS is locked before you buy StartLine.

Allen
L-36.com