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Paul Cayard on SH


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#1 Xlot

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:32 PM

Says a meeting was held this October in SF with ACWS teams, ACalphabet, TV executives to try and firm up a WS program/league on "exciting and affordable" AC45s for the (traditionally lean) three years after the Cup. Small teams were in favor, but the agreement was torpedoed by the perfidious Kiwis, seconded by their "trusty sidekick" LR (that was not very elegant, Paolino must be seriously pissed off).
A sticking point I can see is OR would graciously confer LiveLine equipment - but who would pay for staff and running costs?

Also, ETNZ are supposed to have announced publicly that, should they win, the Cup will revert to monos ??

#2 nav

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:43 PM

What is SH? How about a link?

#3 Xlot

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:52 PM


^^

<cough, cough> SeaHorse digital issue, no link



#4 SimonN

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

Let's see if I have this right. RC and PC, having failed to get any sponsors or TV interested in their World Series, are continuing to try to get it off the ground, but this time riding on the back of the AC. Predictable, as is the opposition of the only other serious players in the game at the moment. They know that a WS is nothing more than a hijack of the Cup and a distraction for teams. And it is also a fairly obvious attempt to influence the format of the Cup if OR should lose. ETNZ and LR know that if either win, the other will be the COR and they don't want their hands tied by the "loser".

Seems lke pretty standard AC BS!!

#5 nav

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

OK then - I'll call it and say on the information supplied PC is a whiny shit-stirrer!

#6 pjfranks

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:27 PM

Good for Dalton. If he wins it's up to the kiwis to decide what to do next. Not OR.

#7 Hastings

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

They know that a WS is nothing more than a hijack of the Cup and a distraction for teams.


Correct!

And a bit premature to be discussing it now.

However, the AC45 is an impressive craft.

And, after September 2013, there should be some way of using them.

But I think we can safely assume Larry has heard enough from the WSL twins and will not be putting good money after bad.

#8 Hastings

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

Good for Dalton. If he wins it's up to the kiwis to decide what to do next. Not OR.


GD will decide.

But only after consulting interested parties in all parts of the world.

RC, Larry et al had too many lunches together.

Whoever next wins the AC should hit the road with a systematic consultation process.

To gather as many (divergent) views as possible.

#9 JMOD

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:48 PM

why? it's basically a bet between a bunch of rich people who decided to have a neutral organization set the measurements to the rules which the winner decides. there's never going to be a systematic consultation process.

#10 Hastings

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:28 AM

there's never going to be a systematic consultation process.


If NZ wins, they will want a regatta with competitors.

As such, there will be a systematic consultation process.

#11 sunseeker

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:17 AM


there's never going to be a systematic consultation process.


If NZ wins, they will want a regatta with competitors.

As such, there will be a systematic consultation process.


If NZL wins it will just be a kiwi money grab just like it has been since 95. You seem to think dalton and the rest of his gang are somehow immune from the human emotion of greed.

#12 WetHog

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:59 AM

Its is a tad funny how The Stache and RC are bound and determined to do whatever they can to make their love child the WSL become reality. On the flip side though, if ETNZ or ETNZ-LR win the prospects of going back to mono's and implementation of nationality rules could be as foolhardy and hilarious as the WSL crusade.

If ETNZ or ETN-LR win that would mean new boat rule, time to design and fine tune said boat rule, time to build all new infrastructure either in Auckland or wherever in Italy ETNZ-LR want to defend, and time for potential challengers to find sailors that fit their nationality requirements and start begging for sponsorship money.

Seems prudent for GD and friends to keep an open mind about continuing on the WSL after AS34 is over. Would be downright stupid to piss away all the technology developed to broadcast the ACWS to this point. Why not agree to carry on the WSL, but find away to leave the type of boat open until a new defender is crowned?

WetHog :ph34r:

#13 sunseeker

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:06 AM

Its is a tad funny how The Stache and RC are bound and determined to do whatever they can to make their love child the WSL become reality. On the flip side though, if ETNZ or ETNZ-LR win the prospects of going back to mono's and implementation of nationality rules could be as foolhardy and hilarious as the WSL crusade.

If ETNZ or ETN-LR win that would mean new boat rule, time to design and fine tune said boat rule, time to build all new infrastructure either in Auckland or wherever in Italy ETNZ-LR want to defend, and time for potential challengers to find sailors that fit their nationality requirements and start begging for sponsorship money.

Seems prudent for GD and friends to keep an open mind about continuing on the WSL after AS34 is over. Would be downright stupid to piss away all the technology developed to broadcast the ACWS to this point. Why not agree to carry on the WSL, but find away to leave the type of boat open until a new defender is crowned?

WetHog :ph34r:/>


That makes too much sense hoggie. Grant only likes things that make cents for him. Not his idea, then forget it. It is in the kiwi culture to grab the cup and shake as much money out of it for themselves as they can. Lots of people will be looking for real estate deals down there and grant sure isn't about to run prelim regattas anywhere but Auckland. It's all about the money and the greedy kiwis want if all.

#14 Indio

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:26 AM


Its is a tad funny how The Stache and RC are bound and determined to do whatever they can to make their love child the WSL become reality. On the flip side though, if ETNZ or ETNZ-LR win the prospects of going back to mono's and implementation of nationality rules could be as foolhardy and hilarious as the WSL crusade.

If ETNZ or ETN-LR win that would mean new boat rule, time to design and fine tune said boat rule, time to build all new infrastructure either in Auckland or wherever in Italy ETNZ-LR want to defend, and time for potential challengers to find sailors that fit their nationality requirements and start begging for sponsorship money.

Seems prudent for GD and friends to keep an open mind about continuing on the WSL after AS34 is over. Would be downright stupid to piss away all the technology developed to broadcast the ACWS to this point. Why not agree to carry on the WSL, but find away to leave the type of boat open until a new defender is crowned?

WetHog :ph34r:/>


That makes too much sense hoggie. Grant only likes things that make cents for him. Not his idea, then forget it. It is in the kiwi culture to grab the cup and shake as much money out of it for themselves as they can. Lots of people will be looking for real estate deals down there and grant sure isn't about to run prelim regattas anywhere but Auckland. It's all about the money and the greedy kiwis want if all.

To the winner, the spoils. Look at the American companies feasting on the carcass of Iraq.

As for the WSL, RC and PC had better start looking for another benefactor because the carrot of the revenue share from any surplus revenue dangled in front of the AC34 winner to continue with it is unlikely to materialise.

Grant is concentrating on winning it first and not be distracted by matters not germane to that objective. Simple really...

#15 Liquid Assett NZ

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:42 AM

There is no way ETNZ will be going to Monos. Why would you spend so much effort getting to the top of the pile of only a handful of teams. Then completely throwing away all that design and technical ability to go back to a boat that a huge amount of teams could compete. It will not happen If Etnz win it will be held in multis.

#16 hoom

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:42 AM

To be fair it was Peter Blake who started the whole travelling companion series thing with the twin '92 boats after winning '95 AC.

I like the ACWS at least in theory, I'd like to see somewhat longer races & maybe not one-design.
Watching the early editions in HD streaming off Youtube before TVNZ slapped on the IP ban was absolutely great & I really hope something like that can happen again.

#17 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:48 AM

Indio ^ The financial incentive, had there been one, was nothing about continuing the ACWS. It is written to be about ACRM, independent management. Hopefully a new Defender will have the nads to do that even without a financial incentive to, since it's so obviously the right thing to do.

IF the Cup went to ETNZ and IF they for some reason don't bless continuing the ACWS (and no, GD has not declared publicly that a return to monohulls is his foregone conclusion) then: the series might well continue regardless, even if prohibited from being a formal lead-in to AC35.

Patrizio likes the ACWS, even likes the AC72's, he has flat out said so. GD has been more positive on the AC72 lately, and both DB and Gashby are, like Max Sirena too, very taken by it. So it seems to me the chances are good that AC35 will be in multihulls of some dimension, with the still-newish AC45's still used to help bring new teams up to speed, even if ETNZ (who is only one of the possible winners) get their say.

The effort to establish agreement to run AC35 in multihulls of some kind, and also maintain continuity of the ACWS, is IMO a worthy goal. If GD really is the fly in the ointment then it could come back to bite him and NZ since their own EA would have no good base-framework to build on, no agreements -commercial and/or organizationally - having been pre-established. I will agree w Peter H insofar as he points to audience growth being important even to GD, even if GD might be reluctant to buy into that.

Haven't actually read the SH piece yet, but will soon.

#18 Indio

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:58 AM

Indio ^ The financial incentive, had there been one, was nothing about continuing the ACWS. It is written to be about ACRM, independent management. Hopefully a new Defender will have the nads to do that even without a financial incentive to, since it's so obviously the right thing to do.

It was about keeping the ACRM alive as well as an annual series of regattas (which) shall commence within nine months of the last race of the 34th Match; this "series" has been the WSL45 circus...

#19 Terry Hollis

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:23 AM

It's all speculation about what ETNZ-LR will do if they win the cup .. the reality is that they have made no announcement and the wont unless they win the AC ..

I agree that it would be a shame to lose all of the development that has gone into the AC72s but they have proven to be too expensive and unable to attract enough teams to make an event that compares with most of the events since the NYYC lost the cup .

The main problem with AC72s is the wing sail which as OR have demonstrated has the potential to ruin a teams program and even ruin the event after relatively simple errors by the crew or crews ..

If they can come up with a concept that can recover from crew errors like the AC45s that would be acceptable but if they can't it's either soft sails for a big cat or something like a Volvo70 ..

As for racing inshore for the benefit of spectators .. is it really necessary ?? .. successful events of the past did not find it necessary .. what's changed ?? .. TV can cover an event better that in the past so why try and reinvent the wheel ?

#20 Rennmaus

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:59 AM

Its is a tad funny how The Stache and RC are bound and determined to do whatever they can to make their love child the WSL become reality. On the flip side though, if ETNZ or ETNZ-LR win the prospects of going back to mono's and implementation of nationality rules could be as foolhardy and hilarious as the WSL crusade.

If ETNZ or ETN-LR win that would mean new boat rule, time to design and fine tune said boat rule, time to build all new infrastructure either in Auckland or wherever in Italy ETNZ-LR want to defend, and time for potential challengers to find sailors that fit their nationality requirements and start begging for sponsorship money.

Seems prudent for GD and friends to keep an open mind about continuing on the WSL after AS34 is over. Would be downright stupid to piss away all the technology developed to broadcast the ACWS to this point. Why not agree to carry on the WSL, but find away to leave the type of boat open until a new defender is crowned?

WetHog :ph34r:


Since the WSL has so many assets (broadcasting technology) that is so sought after and attracts so many sponsors (ahem, well...), RC and PC shouldn't be too worried about the future. Potential organizers will line up, fighting for the right and paying huge royalty sums to be allowed to organize the series. Ergo, there is not need for GD, LR or any other America's Cup defender to carry on with the WSL, it will be the most successful sailing series naturally, because of the huge demand by sponsors and public. That's the free market. If the series needs to be subsidized, it's socialism. And we do not want that, do we???

#21 kiwi_jon

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:46 AM

All this is nothing new. It is just a continuation of the article I posted back in Oct http://forums.sailin...0

Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:42 AM
http://www.sportsbus...ericas-Cup.aspx



Rough Water

Organizers try to bring structure, predictability to sailing


By Tripp Mickle, Staff Writer
Published September 17, 2012, Page 16

On a Friday in late August, a group of eight representatives from four America’s Cup sailing teams gathered at San Francisco’s Embarcadero at the request of organizers of the 2013 America’s Cup. The organizers introduced three members of their advisory board — Harvey Schiller, Jay Cross and Geoff Mason — and ceded the floor to them.

Schiller, the former president of Turner Sports and executive director of the U.S. Olympic Committee, spoke first. He ran through a series of slides that showed the rights fees and sponsorship revenue generated by sports ranging from golf to tennis to mixed martial arts. He said that sailing had fallen behind sports that it once had been more popular than.

“You have the long tradition of the Cup, great athletes and significant interest in what you’re doing, but we can’t wait until 2013 until there’s the same or a new defender to plan 2013 and beyond,” Schiller said. “We have to do it now. If we work on [creating a series of events] now, we can return America’s Cup to a tier one sport.”

Schiller’s words addressed the challenge that has limited the potential of the America’s Cup and the sport of sailing for decades. The competition is one of the most respected and recognizable properties in the world, but its structure — which gives the winner of the quadrennial event the right to pick the next location and organize the competition — means that it’s struggled to develop a predictable schedule, sell TV rights and land sponsorship.

It’s something that organizers of the 2013 America’s Cup want to change. They’re working with an advisory board, which also includes Peter Ueberroth and Casey Wasserman, to develop a case for creating an international sailing league with 12 to 14 annual events, an array of corporate sponsors and TV partners around the world.

The meeting that Schiller led was one of the organizers’ early efforts to get existing America’s Cup teams to buy into the idea.

“There aren’t many sports properties in the world that have a real chance to be a global sports property,” said Stephen Barclay, CEO of the America’s Cup Event Authority, which is managing the 34th America’s Cup that will be held in San Francisco in September 2013. “We have the resources here backing us. The next six months will determine if we deliver on the vision, and that’s exciting to be a part of.”

The resources and the vision come from billionaire Larry Ellison, who won the 33rd America’s Cup in 2010. The victory gave him control over the event the last two years, and he’s used that period to re-evaluate professional sailing and alter the America’s Cup rules and structure, and to create a popular, less expensive and more commercially viable property.

During the last three years, his Oracle Racing team has created the America’s Cup Event Authority to sell and promote the event, and America’s Cup Race Management to oversee the competition. The organizations are independent, and the hope is that the winner of the 34th America’s Cup hires them to run the next competition, which Barclay said would give the sailing championship the type of organizational stability it has lacked.

The team developed a standard boat (the AC72 catamaran) with a winged sail that can maneuver at top speeds of 50 mph and sail in a variety of weather conditions, making it possible for networks to commit to showing races live without having to worry about postponements for weather. Perhaps, most importantly, the boats can race just off the shoreline within view of spectators rather than 20 miles from shore where past races were held.

Finally, it created a series of lead-in races called the America’s Cup Series. Races have been held during the last year in Cascais, Portugal; Plymouth, England; San Diego; Naples, Italy; Venice, Italy; Newport, R.I.; and San Francisco.

The collective changes are expected to increase the size of the audience watching the America’s Cup in person and on TV in 2013, which Barclay said will make it easier for teams to deliver a return on investment to sponsors that range from Emirates to JPMorgan. But more changes are needed if America’s Cup teams want to maintain the interest of those viewers and continue to deliver a return on sponsors’ investments.

“For us to be a global sport, we have to have a calendar that represents a global sport,” Barclay said. “We need a dozen or 14 events a year. That’s the next nut we need to crack.”

Ellison and the America’s Cup Event Authority are trying to get teams to buy into a professional league of sorts. The idea would be for the America’s Cup Event Authority to create a series of a dozen annual races between the 34th America’s Cup and the 35th America’s Cup. It would sell TV rights and sponsorship worldwide to those events. Then it would share the revenue with teams, which spend $30 million to $100 million to compete in the America’s Cup, and use it to cover the cost of organizing the 35th America’s Cup, which is expected to cost more than $100 million.

It’s a radical idea in the world of sailing. The America’s Cup competition is governed by a single piece of paper called the Deed of Gift that was written in 1852, the year after the first race was held around the Isle of Wight.

Historically, the event has functioned on the old cliché: To the victors go the spoils. If teams agree to create a league, though, the victor no longer would control the entire America’s Cup. It would only determine the location of the next competition.

“It’s a really tricky [proposal] given that there’s a 160-year-old sheet of paper 1 1/2 pages long that governs America’s Cup,” Barclay said. “That [piece of paper] is what we’re all about. Otherwise, we’d lose the mystique. But bringing it into the 21st century, keeping the best things of the past, the challenges from countries, creates opportunities to solve the challenges we’re trying to solve, which is putting teams on sound financial footing.”

Several of the teams have been supportive of that idea.

Kim Dong-Young, CEO of Team Korea, said that the team has struggled to get sponsorship since it decided to challenge for the Cup earlier this year. Kim said that the team has met with several sponsors who want to cut a multiyear deal and want to know how many races the team will sail after the 34th America’s Cup is held next year.

“As a small and new team, the idea [of a league] is great,” Kim said. “With the America’s Cup, there isn’t any certainty. For a new country and people without any background, it’s hard to understand. This is a good idea.”

Ben Ainslie, the British Olympic gold medalist, agreed. He recently launched an America’s Cup Series team and plans to challenge for the 35th America’s Cup.

“It’s right the holder [of the Cup] should be able to decide the venue,” Ainslie said, “but if you have an annual circuit, that gives teams the continuity they’re searching for from a commercial standpoint and can give the holder of the America’s Cup the right to hold the event in the venue of their choosing. It becomes much better for everybody.”

Of the three other challengers for the 34th America’s Cup, Patrizio Bertelli, CEO of the Italian team Luna Rossa, declined to comment, saying the team was still learning about the America’s Cup Event Authority’s idea; Paul Cayard, CEO of the Swedish team Artemis Racing, was traveling and unavailable but has supported the idea; and Grant Dalton, CEO of Emirates Team New Zealand, declined comment.

Barclay said that organizers will meet with teams again in San Francisco this October. It’s unclear how many of the five America’s Cup teams and eight America’s Cup Series teams would need to support the idea for the America’s Cup Event Authority to move forward with it. If it wanted, the event authority could move forward with plans without team support and teams could challenge them in New York court, which has jurisdiction over the Deed of Gift.

For now, though, Barclay is intent on building support. In the interim, his team will begin gauging TV networks’ interest in buying rights to future events, sponsor interest in supporting the future “league,” and developing a tentative schedule and finding venues for future America’s Cup Series races.

It already has met with NBC and Mason, who is on its advisory board, and is a producer at ESPN, and it has held conversations with existing sponsors about its plans. But drafting a schedule may be the biggest challenge.

Unlike Formula One, which flies cars from race to race, America’s Cup teams have to spend time sailing from race to race. That creates major logistical issues, Barclay said.

“We’ll have to go to four, possibly five regions of the world and stay there for a period of time and have three or four events there,” he said.

Barclay said that the series has a finite timeline for creating a league — by the America’s Cup next September.

“The worst case for us is we reach the end of the 34th America’s Cup and we do not have sponsors locked in, we do not have venues come in and we do not have a television deal,” Barclay said. “History will repeat itself. The important thing is that the [America’s Cup] winner has in place world series venues, sponsorship deals and television deals. In all of those cases, we can manage those contracts. The trick is how we share the revenues.”

#22 hoom

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:03 AM

Its one thing to have the same pro tennis players play both the big publicity pro tour as well as the Davis cup but its something else entirely to try to turn the Davis cup into the pro circuit.

#23 dogwatch

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:05 AM

On a Friday in late August, a group of eight representatives from four America’s Cup sailing teams gathered at San Francisco’s Embarcadero at the request of organizers of the 2013 America’s Cup.


And presumably if anything had come of this, we'd have long since heard about it.

#24 kiwi_jon

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:12 AM

To be fair it was Peter Blake who started the whole travelling companion series thing with the twin '92 boats after winning '95 AC.

I like the ACWS at least in theory, I'd like to see somewhat longer races & maybe not one-design.
Watching the early editions in HD streaming off Youtube before TVNZ slapped on the IP ban was absolutely great & I really hope something like that can happen again.


Not quite. San Diego YC held the IACC World Championships in 1991 and 1994 prior to AC28 and AC29. Blakes 'Roads to the America's Cup' was just a continuation of those IACC World Championships.

#25 hoom

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:43 AM

But they were in SD (I think? 1 was anyway) not on a tour with scores giving LVC bonuses.

#26 ppress

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:03 PM

Indio ^ The financial incentive, had there been one, was nothing about continuing the ACWS. It is written to be about ACRM, independent management. Hopefully a new Defender will have the nads to do that even without a financial incentive to, since it's so obviously the right thing to do.

IF the Cup went to ETNZ and IF they for some reason don't bless continuing the ACWS (and no, GD has not declared publicly that a return to monohulls is his foregone conclusion) then: the series might well continue regardless, even if prohibited from being a formal lead-in to AC35.

Patrizio likes the ACWS, even likes the AC72's, he has flat out said so. GD has been more positive on the AC72 lately, and both DB and Gashby are, like Max Sirena too, very taken by it. So it seems to me the chances are good that AC35 will be in multihulls of some dimension, with the still-newish AC45's still used to help bring new teams up to speed, even if ETNZ (who is only one of the possible winners) get their say.

The effort to establish agreement to run AC35 in multihulls of some kind, and also maintain continuity of the ACWS, is IMO a worthy goal. If GD really is the fly in the ointment then it could come back to bite him and NZ since their own EA would have no good base-framework to build on, no agreements -commercial and/or organizationally - having been pre-established. I will agree w Peter H insofar as he points to audience growth being important even to GD, even if GD might be reluctant to buy into that.

Haven't actually read the SH piece yet, but will soon.


Stingray - can you please site your source?

#27 ice9a

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:50 PM

IF the Cup went to ETNZ and IF they for some reason don't bless continuing the ACWS (and no, GD has not declared publicly that a return to monohulls is his foregone conclusion) then: the series might well continue regardless, even if prohibited from being a formal lead-in to AC35.


If a new defender does not bless the ACWS, then ACEA/ACRM would be forbidden from using the "Americas Cup" and it's image in the series name and marketing. It would have to be entirely re-branded as nothing to do with the AC.

#28 Xlot

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

.. and no, GD has not declared publicly that a return to monohulls is his foregone conclusion ..


We all know he hasn't, but verbatim:

Further, ETNZ have now publicly stated that they won't continue with multihulls should they win the Cup in 2013. It is amazing that they can be so certain that multihulls aren't the way to go for attracting the public interest needed to justify America's Cup budgets. (shows his true colors here)



#29 nroose

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:30 PM

Does all the broadcast tech, including LiveLine, go with the cup to the new defender, after AC34? Or is that stuff basically still Larry's?

#30 pjfranks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:54 PM


Its is a tad funny how The Stache and RC are bound and determined to do whatever they can to make their love child the WSL become reality. On the flip side though, if ETNZ or ETNZ-LR win the prospects of going back to mono's and implementation of nationality rules could be as foolhardy and hilarious as the WSL crusade.

If ETNZ or ETN-LR win that would mean new boat rule, time to design and fine tune said boat rule, time to build all new infrastructure either in Auckland or wherever in Italy ETNZ-LR want to defend, and time for potential challengers to find sailors that fit their nationality requirements and start begging for sponsorship money.

Seems prudent for GD and friends to keep an open mind about continuing on the WSL after AS34 is over. Would be downright stupid to piss away all the technology developed to broadcast the ACWS to this point. Why not agree to carry on the WSL, but find away to leave the type of boat open until a new defender is crowned?

WetHog :ph34r:/>


That makes too much sense hoggie. Grant only likes things that make cents for him. Not his idea, then forget it. It is in the kiwi culture to grab the cup and shake as much money out of it for themselves as they can. Lots of people will be looking for real estate deals down there and grant sure isn't about to run prelim regattas anywhere but Auckland. It's all about the money and the greedy kiwis want if all.

“For us to be a global sport, we have to have a calendar that represents a global sport,” Barclay said. “We need a dozen or 14 events a year. That’s the next nut we need to crack.”

First OR have to win AC34. That's the next nut Barclay has to crack. This exercise is just about maintaining control of the AC by sidelining the deed. Barclay can't control the next defender.

#31 kiwi_jon

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:56 PM


Indio ^ The financial incentive, had there been one, was nothing about continuing the ACWS. It is written to be about ACRM, independent management. Hopefully a new Defender will have the nads to do that even without a financial incentive to, since it's so obviously the right thing to do.

IF the Cup went to ETNZ and IF they for some reason don't bless continuing the ACWS (and no, GD has not declared publicly that a return to monohulls is his foregone conclusion) then: the series might well continue regardless, even if prohibited from being a formal lead-in to AC35.

Patrizio likes the ACWS, even likes the AC72's, he has flat out said so. GD has been more positive on the AC72 lately, and both DB and Gashby are, like Max Sirena too, very taken by it. So it seems to me the chances are good that AC35 will be in multihulls of some dimension, with the still-newish AC45's still used to help bring new teams up to speed, even if ETNZ (who is only one of the possible winners) get their say.

The effort to establish agreement to run AC35 in multihulls of some kind, and also maintain continuity of the ACWS, is IMO a worthy goal. If GD really is the fly in the ointment then it could come back to bite him and NZ since their own EA would have no good base-framework to build on, no agreements -commercial and/or organizationally - having been pre-established. I will agree w Peter H insofar as he points to audience growth being important even to GD, even if GD might be reluctant to buy into that.

Haven't actually read the SH piece yet, but will soon.


Stingray - can you please site your source?


He can't. Bertelli has flat out said at every opportunity that the AC72 is too expensive and that the cost is the reason for the poor number of Challengers.

He has publically stated several times that his goal is for ETNZ and LR to meet in the LV final as no matter who wins both teams share the same vision of lowering the cost of participation, be it in smaller catamarans or fast monohulls, to encourage more challenger participation.

#32 PeterHuston

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:34 PM



Indio ^ The financial incentive, had there been one, was nothing about continuing the ACWS. It is written to be about ACRM, independent management. Hopefully a new Defender will have the nads to do that even without a financial incentive to, since it's so obviously the right thing to do.

IF the Cup went to ETNZ and IF they for some reason don't bless continuing the ACWS (and no, GD has not declared publicly that a return to monohulls is his foregone conclusion) then: the series might well continue regardless, even if prohibited from being a formal lead-in to AC35.

Patrizio likes the ACWS, even likes the AC72's, he has flat out said so. GD has been more positive on the AC72 lately, and both DB and Gashby are, like Max Sirena too, very taken by it. So it seems to me the chances are good that AC35 will be in multihulls of some dimension, with the still-newish AC45's still used to help bring new teams up to speed, even if ETNZ (who is only one of the possible winners) get their say.

The effort to establish agreement to run AC35 in multihulls of some kind, and also maintain continuity of the ACWS, is IMO a worthy goal. If GD really is the fly in the ointment then it could come back to bite him and NZ since their own EA would have no good base-framework to build on, no agreements -commercial and/or organizationally - having been pre-established. I will agree w Peter H insofar as he points to audience growth being important even to GD, even if GD might be reluctant to buy into that.

Haven't actually read the SH piece yet, but will soon.


Stingray - can you please site your source?


He can't. Bertelli has flat out said at every opportunity that the AC72 is too expensive and that the cost is the reason for the poor number of Challengers.

He has publically stated several times that his goal is for ETNZ and LR to meet in the LV final as no matter who wins both teams share the same vision of lowering the cost of participation, be it in smaller catamarans or fast monohulls, to encourage more challenger participation.


They don't have to just lower the cost, more importantly they have to raise the value, if the goal is to get more teams funded by sponsorship.

One of the primary fundamental mistakes that ACEA made was keeping all the media rights for themselves. They would have had a far better chance of getting more entries if their model had been team instead of event centric. Should RNZYS win, it will be interesting to see what they do with media rights, and whether or not they would go to a rev share deal with each team/country.

That said, pretty damn hard any way you slice it to say that an AC team is worth $40 million in true sponsor value if it is just the Louis Vuitton Cup and AC, especially for a newbie sponsor funded team that is likely to get crushed first time out. Dalton got his sponsorship deals because the team from RNZYS is a proven commodity. No one else pulled it off this time.

Whether the boats are mono or multihull will make little difference in the scheme of things. The first question is really about how to create sponsor/media value.

#33 dogwatch

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:59 PM

Does all the broadcast tech, including LiveLine, go with the cup to the new defender, after AC34? Or is that stuff basically still Larry's?


I believe it's ACEA's. Definitely not ACRM's.


Entity Name: AMERICA'S CUP EVENT AUTHORITY LLC Entity Number: 201032810016 Date Filed: 11/23/2010 Status: ACTIVE Jurisdiction: CALIFORNIA Entity Address: 101 SECOND ST STE 1800 Entity City, State, Zip: SAN FRANCISCO CA 94105 Agent for Service of Process: RICHARD WORTH Agent Address: 101 IGNACIO VALLEY RD STE 320 Agent City, State, Zip: WALNUT CREEK CA 94596



Ownership of ACEA LLC doesn't seem to be public domain. In the UK shareholdings in the equivalent of an LLC are in the public domain but according to http://www.sos.ca.go...on-requests.htm

"Owner, shareholder and employee information for a business entity is not made of record with the California Secretary of State. Requests for information should be directed to the business entity itself."

I'm sure there are those here who know much more about how to follow the money for a California LLC.

#34 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:04 PM



Patrizio likes the ACWS, even likes the AC72's, he has flat out said so. GD has been more positive on the AC72 lately, and both DB and Gashby are, like Max Sirena too, very taken by it.


Stingray - can you please site your source?


He can't. Bertelli has flat out said at every opportunity that the AC72 is too expensive and that the cost is the reason for the poor number of Challengers.

He has publically stated several times that his goal is for ETNZ and LR to meet in the LV final as no matter who wins both teams share the same vision of lowering the cost of participation, be it in smaller catamarans or fast monohulls, to encourage more challenger participation.


I can, and will, find PB praising the AC72. (finding the likes of DB, Gashby, Sirena, JS, others, enthusing is almost like shooting fish in a barrel)

But more directly to the point (the future of an ACWS) here he is in the VS interview speaking about what's best for ~other~ teams. It is remarkably like what Barclay suggests too.

http://www.vsail.info/2012/11/05/patrizio-bertelli-talks-to-vsail-info-about-prada-luna-rossa-and-the-americas-cup/


VSail.info: Has the America’s Cup been positive for the Prada group? Do you think that sponsors see a return on their investment?

Patrizio Bertelli: For Prada definitely yes, because it is now intrinsically linked with Luna Rossa. We are not a generic sponsor but a sponsor that created the conditions that led to the birth of the Luna Rossa myth.

VSail.info: Do you think the America’s Cup should or could be a commercial event, an event that would allow teams to exist purely on sponsorship money?

Patrizio Bertelli: Sponsors will put money once they see there is public attendance and general interest. It’s very difficult for a sponsor to spend money before seeing what is going on. It’s very probable that after this America’s Cup we see an increase in the interest from sponsors. I think that the issue over monohulls or multihulls is a secondary problem. The main problem is to make rules so that the boats used in the world circuit are closer to the ones used in the America’s Cup. I find the idea of a circuit very interesting, both the one organized by Bertarelli as well as the current one.

VSail.info: Would you have been in favor of racing the America’s Cup in the current AC45 yachts instead of the spectacular but enormous AC72′s?

Patrizio Bertelli: I personally think that probably it would have been better to do the America’s Cup on the AC45′s. We could have raced the circuit with strictly equal AC45 yachts and then establish a constraining rule that would give each team some liberty to design their yacht according to their own criteria.

VSail.info: What do you think of the new catamarans used now in the America’s Cup? If it were totally up to you would you have continued with the boats used in Valencia in 2007?

Patrizio Bertelli: No, those ones aren’t suitable either. We need to have boats able to attract more teams, not only in terms of numbers but of age as well, younger ones. In order to attract more teams we also have to lower costs. We need to find a way so that one can run a competitive America’s Cup campaign with a budget of 50 million euros.

#35 dogwatch

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:11 PM

It is remarkably like what Barclay suggests too.


Actually it's closer to EB's "ACTS". A series using boats similar or identical to the AC class itself (whatever that may be).

#36 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:30 PM

^ We've seen LE, RC, Barclay, PB, possibly PC, all speaking of the possibility to either make the AC72 V2's use smaller wings, more standardized components, whatever all makes sense; or do some of that but also in a smaller-dimensioned boat. Nobody is outright calling for a return to mono's, that SH line (a PC quote?) notwithstanding.

The most recent comments I recall from GD on the subject of the future of the ACWS were made in an impromptu interview in SF2, winged posted the video that he took. GD's attitude was basically 'Yes I ~would~ favor it, IF it was financially self-sustaining.'

My suggestion is that it would help, instead of hurt, the chances of that if he were to agree some framework for in the event RNZYS became Defender. Barclay could then pursue solid deals to make that happen with that guarantee as security; as could prospective new teams.

Lastly, committing to a series originally stood up by ACEA using LE's investment does not in any way mean keeping Barclay on, or even 'ACEA' in its current organization. You get the feeling GD doesn't have much time personally for Barclay but that shouldn't be his overriding issue. GD should just say Okay, whatever sponsorship deal incomes you can sign up for an ACWS 35 event series, I would uphold and commit to the running of that event, for everyone's benefit. It costs him nothing.

#37 Rennmaus

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

Why does it have to be the AC defender who is responsible for the future of the ACWS? There are some more or less competent regatta series organizers out there that may be interested in getting the licence, especially when sponsors have signed up.

#38 Hastings

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:39 PM

The most recent comments I recall from GD on the subject of the future of the ACWS were made in an impromptu interview in SF2, winged posted the video that he took. GD's attitude was basically 'Yes I ~would~ favor it, IF it was financially self-sustaining.'


I know history points at the defender as the bloke with all the power when it comes to creating a class rule - and arranging a defense.

But, the Alinghi/Oracle legal fight, immediately followed by the absence of challengers for SF, has PROFOUNDLY changed the way this game is played.

Whether it is Larry, Patrizio or Grant that emerges as the next defender, it does not matter.

There will be no more private WSL-like fantasy-circus operations.

Instead, the defender MUST hit the road and build a broad consensus for a new class.

Now get this! Grant does not object to multis. After all, he sailed around the world on Club Med.

Also, he is a triathlete, a committed motor cyclist and likes living on the edge.

So, do not assume he automatically favours monos.

But, if a broad-based consultation process - designed to reduce costs - says monos.

Then monos it is.

However, read what Patrizio said to Pierre. Makes a lot of sense. And, in my view, would be a good reflection of Grant's thinking.

#39 WetHog

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:55 PM

I don't pretend to know GD's mind, and I doubt anyone who frequents this site has in depth conversations with the man so we are all just guessing what he would do if ETNZ gets the Cup. What I can see happening above all the talk about boats and ACWS is for ETNZ to structure their defense in such a way that ensure ETNZ the best possible chance to successfully defend initially and hold the Cup as long as possible. The Cup means more to a country like NZ then any other probably in the world in terms of prestige and getting that little corner of our world in the spot light. Add to it lessons learned from the AC31 defense, NZL81/82 design and training fuck up and EB being able to basically buy the heart of TNZ right out from under the Kiwi's, getting the Cup out of NZ a 2nd time will probably be close to impossible.

So all the talk about GD not being interested in anything developed or implemented by OR for AC34 makes perfect sense. If ETNZ wins AC35 will be a reset to the Cup that will suit ETNZ first and foremost. Strict nationality rules and a brand new boat rule that will require everyone to start from scratch will be the top priorities and things like the ACWS and whatever broadcasting rights are on the table to continue will be secondary if considered at all.

WetHog :ph34r:

#40 PeterHuston

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:13 PM

I don't pretend to know GD's mind, and I doubt anyone who frequents this site has in depth conversations with the man so we are all just guessing what he would do if ETNZ gets the Cup. What I can see happening above all the talk about boats and ACWS is for ETNZ to structure their defense in such a way that ensure ETNZ the best possible chance to successfully defend initially and hold the Cup as long as possible. The Cup means more to a country like NZ then any other probably in the world in terms of prestige and getting that little corner of our world in the spot light. Add to it lessons learned from the AC31 defense, NZL81/82 design and training fuck up and EB being able to basically buy the heart of TNZ right out from under the Kiwi's, getting the Cup out of NZ a 2nd time will probably be close to impossible.

So all the talk about GD not being interested in anything developed or implemented by OR for AC34 makes perfect sense. If ETNZ wins AC35 will be a reset to the Cup that will suit ETNZ first and foremost. Strict nationality rules and a brand new boat rule that will require everyone to start from scratch will be the top priorities and things like the ACWS and whatever broadcasting rights are on the table to continue will be secondary if considered at all.

WetHog :ph34r:


All correct....except the part about ETNZ getting the Cup. They don't. Their bitch poodle club, RNZYS gets the Cup. The company Grant runs which manages their sailing team might get a crack at managing the operations of the Cup too.

Isn't it funny how the Kiwi Religious Right wants to condemn everything about GGYC and the way they have let ACEA run all the marketing, while having the most clear independent race management ever via ACRM and the Jury clearly being completely independent, but yet RNZYS is all but invisible in terms of this America's Cup?

If any club is a poddle in this Cup, it is RNZYS.

#41 Estar

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:27 PM


GD's attitude was basically 'Yes I ~would~ favor it, IF it was financially self-sustaining.'


That raises the key question . . . . how close is the ACWS to breakeven? This is all a complete non-starter if it's still losing money hand over fist. By the protocol ACEA is supposed to be producing financial statements (published to the competitors) every 6 months. They appear to be roughly $200m in the hole so far.


Why does it have to be the AC defender who is responsible for the future of the ACWS? There are some more or less competent regatta series organizers out there that may be interested in getting the licence, especially when sponsors have signed up.



Because without the defender on board they cannot use the AC brand, and most believe they have no hope of success (with sponsors and TV) without the AC brand.


#42 KiwiJoker

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:23 PM


I don't pretend to know GD's mind, and I doubt anyone who frequents this site has in depth conversations with the man so we are all just guessing what he would do if ETNZ gets the Cup. What I can see happening above all the talk about boats and ACWS is for ETNZ to structure their defense in such a way that ensure ETNZ the best possible chance to successfully defend initially and hold the Cup as long as possible. The Cup means more to a country like NZ then any other probably in the world in terms of prestige and getting that little corner of our world in the spot light. Add to it lessons learned from the AC31 defense, NZL81/82 design and training fuck up and EB being able to basically buy the heart of TNZ right out from under the Kiwi's, getting the Cup out of NZ a 2nd time will probably be close to impossible.

So all the talk about GD not being interested in anything developed or implemented by OR for AC34 makes perfect sense. If ETNZ wins AC35 will be a reset to the Cup that will suit ETNZ first and foremost. Strict nationality rules and a brand new boat rule that will require everyone to start from scratch will be the top priorities and things like the ACWS and whatever broadcasting rights are on the table to continue will be secondary if considered at all.

WetHog :ph34r:


All correct....except the part about ETNZ getting the Cup. They don't. Their bitch poodle club, RNZYS gets the Cup. The company Grant runs which manages their sailing team might get a crack at managing the operations of the Cup too.

Isn't it funny how the Kiwi Religious Right wants to condemn everything about GGYC and the way they have let ACEA run all the marketing, while having the most clear independent race management ever via ACRM and the Jury clearly being completely independent, but yet RNZYS is all but invisible in terms of this America's Cup?

If any club is a poddle in this Cup, it is RNZYS.


There you go again, spraying gasoline all over the place with reckless abandon and then lighting matches!

Please forget the vituperation and explain how Kungliga Svenska Segelsällskapet and Circolo della Vela Sicilia are more visible than the squadron in this current challenge.

#43 Indio

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:27 PM


I don't pretend to know GD's mind, and I doubt anyone who frequents this site has in depth conversations with the man so we are all just guessing what he would do if ETNZ gets the Cup. What I can see happening above all the talk about boats and ACWS is for ETNZ to structure their defense in such a way that ensure ETNZ the best possible chance to successfully defend initially and hold the Cup as long as possible. The Cup means more to a country like NZ then any other probably in the world in terms of prestige and getting that little corner of our world in the spot light. Add to it lessons learned from the AC31 defense, NZL81/82 design and training fuck up and EB being able to basically buy the heart of TNZ right out from under the Kiwi's, getting the Cup out of NZ a 2nd time will probably be close to impossible.

So all the talk about GD not being interested in anything developed or implemented by OR for AC34 makes perfect sense. If ETNZ wins AC35 will be a reset to the Cup that will suit ETNZ first and foremost. Strict nationality rules and a brand new boat rule that will require everyone to start from scratch will be the top priorities and things like the ACWS and whatever broadcasting rights are on the table to continue will be secondary if considered at all.

WetHog :ph34r:


All correct....except the part about ETNZ getting the Cup. They don't. Their bitch poodle club, RNZYS gets the Cup. The company Grant runs which manages their sailing team might get a crack at managing the operations of the Cup too.

Isn't it funny how the Kiwi Religious Right wants to condemn everything about GGYC and the way they have let ACEA run all the marketing, while having the most clear independent race management ever via ACRM and the Jury clearly being completely independent, but yet RNZYS is all but invisible in terms of this America's Cup?

If any club is a poddle in this Cup, it is RNZYS.

If you weren't so bitter and twisted, you'd actually see the invisibility of a YC in the AC as par for the course. Who remembers the YC of OR's first cOR whORe? or Alinghi's? Or Team Korea's? or ET? Or AR's?...
Get over yourself Bitter Peter: you're as insignificant in the scheme of things as most ACAnarchists are.

#44 PeterHuston

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

There you go again, spraying gasoline all over the place with reckless abandon and then lighting matches!

Please forget the vituperation and explain how Kungliga Svenska Segelsällskapet and Circolo della Vela Sicilia are more visible than the squadron in this current challenge.


I am so sick and tired of the political correctness and walking on eggshells around the Mosque that is RNZYS, what with all the Kiwi Religious Right around the world telling the rest of us that we have to kneel down in the direction of mecca and Prince Grant.

KSS isn't all that visible either, but CdVS sure is with their burgee the most prominently displayed of all clubs on their boat, GGYC included. Full marks to Bertelli for his sense of style and respect.

No one screams about their fanatical preaching of self-righteousness quite like the Kiwi Religious Right in their blind raging support of the team from RNZYS.

But that's good, we need more dynamic polarization of the teams to create some sporting drama.

#45 nav

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

This bit is especially ironic..... funny how the Kiwi Religious Right wants to condemn everything about GGYC and the way they have let ACEA run all the marketing...

As we all know who has been the biggest marketing know-it-all and the harshest critic!

Sorry your City and your Team are not managing things better Peter (or does the 'P' stand for parochial?) - perhaps things will still pick-up?

All this dummy spitting is not a good look though mate!

#46 Rennmaus

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

^^
From what we witnessed, the outgoing situation was that this AC shall become a love fest between defender and all challengers, free from drama for a change. Just, level and fair. With the technical innovations as the real story.
Some here already mentioned back then that this will not be enough, that the drama, the human factor and a real story will be needed to spark interest. This has not yet happened (enough), so actually we can be grateful that at least GD sometimes utters grumpy statements to disturb the Kumbaya chants.

#47 maxmini

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:58 PM




Patrizio likes the ACWS, even likes the AC72's, he has flat out said so. GD has been more positive on the AC72 lately, and both DB and Gashby are, like Max Sirena too, very taken by it.


Stingray - can you please site your source?


He can't. Bertelli has flat out said at every opportunity that the AC72 is too expensive and that the cost is the reason for the poor number of Challengers.

He has publically stated several times that his goal is for ETNZ and LR to meet in the LV final as no matter who wins both teams share the same vision of lowering the cost of participation, be it in smaller catamarans or fast monohulls, to encourage more challenger participation.


I can, and will, find PB praising the AC72. (finding the likes of DB, Gashby, Sirena, JS, others, enthusing is almost like shooting fish in a barrel)

But more directly to the point (the future of an ACWS) here he is in the VS interview speaking about what's best for ~other~ teams. It is remarkably like what Barclay suggests too.

http://www.vsail.info/2012/11/05/patrizio-bertelli-talks-to-vsail-info-about-prada-luna-rossa-and-the-americas-cup/


VSail.info: Has the America&rsquo;s Cup been positive for the Prada group? Do you think that sponsors see a return on their investment?

Patrizio Bertelli: For Prada definitely yes, because it is now intrinsically linked with Luna Rossa. We are not a generic sponsor but a sponsor that created the conditions that led to the birth of the Luna Rossa myth.

VSail.info: Do you think the America&rsquo;s Cup should or could be a commercial event, an event that would allow teams to exist purely on sponsorship money?

Patrizio Bertelli: Sponsors will put money once they see there is public attendance and general interest. It&rsquo;s very difficult for a sponsor to spend money before seeing what is going on. It&rsquo;s very probable that after this America&rsquo;s Cup we see an increase in the interest from sponsors. I think that the issue over monohulls or multihulls is a secondary problem. The main problem is to make rules so that the boats used in the world circuit are closer to the ones used in the America&rsquo;s Cup. I find the idea of a circuit very interesting, both the one organized by Bertarelli as well as the current one.

VSail.info: Would you have been in favor of racing the America&rsquo;s Cup in the current AC45 yachts instead of the spectacular but enormous AC72&prime;s?

Patrizio Bertelli: I personally think that probably it would have been better to do the America&rsquo;s Cup on the AC45&prime;s. We could have raced the circuit with strictly equal AC45 yachts and then establish a constraining rule that would give each team some liberty to design their yacht according to their own criteria.

VSail.info: What do you think of the new catamarans used now in the America&rsquo;s Cup? If it were totally up to you would you have continued with the boats used in Valencia in 2007?

Patrizio Bertelli: No, those ones aren&rsquo;t suitable either. We need to have boats able to attract more teams, not only in terms of numbers but of age as well, younger ones. In order to attract more teams we also have to lower costs. We need to find a way so that one can run a competitive America&rsquo;s Cup campaign with a budget of 50 million euros.


He is very clear here . If he has anything to do with AC 35 the AC 72 is one and done .

#48 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:00 PM


GD's attitude was basically 'Yes I ~would~ favor it, IF it was financially self-sustaining.'



That raises the key question . . . . how close is the ACWS to breakeven? This is all a complete non-starter if it's still losing money hand over fist.

In a recent SH magazine article Barclay says in an interview they are overall 'a long shot' from breaking even so far. My guess is that ACWS has a lot to do with that. He also says they had to buy (as we know) the NBC broadcasts of it, that they hope to sell the broadcasts for the next season (and mentions the broadcasters were encouraged by the numbers, especially by how people 'stuck' to the show instead of tuning out, and it out-rating Olympic trials and TdF coverage that same weekend), but that if they had to do it again, then they would pay for/purchase the distribution again next time. And so, if the ACWS were handed to a new Defender on a platter like that, then presumably it would satisfy GD's "if it were self-sustaining" condition for agreeing to continue it.

We know PB, TT/PC, OR, the Peyrons, BA/BAR, Kim/KOR, are all very keen that an ACWS continue since they say so, quite adamantly. GD's problem is not wanting to get financially burdened by commitments he can't keep. He apparently wants some kind of guarantee that he can't be left holding a bill.

Barclay also in that interview said he plans on working this through September, so it's little surprise nothing has been announced one way or the other yet.

By the protocol ACEA is supposed to be producing financial statements (published to the competitors) every 6 months. They appear to be roughly $200m in the hole so far.


I believe that got dropped as part of an early Protocol amendment. We may still get to see a net balance after the conclusion of AC34.

Again, I think that starting over without any deals, any organization, including an ACWS that is well-backed by TV money and/or LE money, and by (suspect it is) LE's television technology, would be a very hard path to plow. Broadcasters, sponsors, teams, sailors, everyone wants far-sighted continuity instead of uncertainty; it is absolutely key to the event if your goal is to increase participation, something everyone who matters seems to think is important. Nothing about the Deed precludes a potential Defender from pre-agreeing broad, or even detailed, facets of how they will proceed should they win. It strikes me as a good idea on the whole if it can be done, and with this small a group of candidate next-Defenders the potential for agreement is surely ripe, at least at some macro-level.

#49 pjfranks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:01 PM




Indio ^ The financial incentive, had there been one, was nothing about continuing the ACWS. It is written to be about ACRM, independent management. Hopefully a new Defender will have the nads to do that even without a financial incentive to, since it's so obviously the right thing to do.

IF the Cup went to ETNZ and IF they for some reason don't bless continuing the ACWS (and no, GD has not declared publicly that a return to monohulls is his foregone conclusion) then: the series might well continue regardless, even if prohibited from being a formal lead-in to AC35.

Patrizio likes the ACWS, even likes the AC72's, he has flat out said so. GD has been more positive on the AC72 lately, and both DB and Gashby are, like Max Sirena too, very taken by it. So it seems to me the chances are good that AC35 will be in multihulls of some dimension, with the still-newish AC45's still used to help bring new teams up to speed, even if ETNZ (who is only one of the possible winners) get their say.

The effort to establish agreement to run AC35 in multihulls of some kind, and also maintain continuity of the ACWS, is IMO a worthy goal. If GD really is the fly in the ointment then it could come back to bite him and NZ since their own EA would have no good base-framework to build on, no agreements -commercial and/or organizationally - having been pre-established. I will agree w Peter H insofar as he points to audience growth being important even to GD, even if GD might be reluctant to buy into that.

Haven't actually read the SH piece yet, but will soon.


Stingray - can you please site your source?


He can't. Bertelli has flat out said at every opportunity that the AC72 is too expensive and that the cost is the reason for the poor number of Challengers.

He has publically stated several times that his goal is for ETNZ and LR to meet in the LV final as no matter who wins both teams share the same vision of lowering the cost of participation, be it in smaller catamarans or fast monohulls, to encourage more challenger participation.


They don't have to just lower the cost, more importantly they have to raise the value, if the goal is to get more teams funded by sponsorship.

One of the primary fundamental mistakes that ACEA made was keeping all the media rights for themselves. They would have had a far better chance of getting more entries if their model had been team instead of event centric. Should RNZYS win, it will be interesting to see what they do with media rights, and whether or not they would go to a rev share deal with each team/country.

That said, pretty damn hard any way you slice it to say that an AC team is worth $40 million in true sponsor value if it is just the Louis Vuitton Cup and AC, especially for a newbie sponsor funded team that is likely to get crushed first time out. Dalton got his sponsorship deals because the team from RNZYS is a proven commodity. No one else pulled it off this time.

Whether the boats are mono or multihull will make little difference in the scheme of things. The first question is really about how to create sponsor/media value.

The ridiculous thing is that you believe that sponsors will be taken in by the circus when with a little googling anyone will find out that the circus is controversial and against the deed. Everyone but you seem to know sailing and live television don't work. Last time in Valencia it was a major TV snoozathon. Good luck with your repairs to the boat that belongs to the team that represents the defender.

#50 pjfranks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:04 PM



GD's attitude was basically 'Yes I ~would~ favor it, IF it was financially self-sustaining.'



That raises the key question . . . . how close is the ACWS to breakeven? This is all a complete non-starter if it's still losing money hand over fist.

In a recent SH magazine article Barclay says in an interview they are overall 'a long shot' from breaking even so far. My guess is that ACWS has a lot to do with that. He also says they had to buy (as we know) the NBC broadcasts of it, that they hope to sell the broadcasts for the next season (and mentions the broadcasters were encouraged by the numbers, especially by how people 'stuck' to the show instead of tuning out, and it out-rating Olympic trials and TdF coverage that same weekend), but that if they had to do it again, then they would pay for/purchase the distribution again next time. And so, if the ACWS were handed to a new Defender on a platter like that, then presumably it would satisfy GD's "if it were self-sustaining" condition for agreeing to continue it.

We know PB, TT/PC, OR, the Peyrons, BA/BAR, Kim/KOR, are all very keen that an ACWS continue since they say so, quite adamantly. GD's problem is not wanting to get financially burdened by commitments he can't keep. He apparently wants some kind of guarantee that he can't be left holding a bill.

Barclay also in that interview said he plans on working this through September, so it's little surprise nothing has been announced one way or the other yet.

By the protocol ACEA is supposed to be producing financial statements (published to the competitors) every 6 months. They appear to be roughly $200m in the hole so far.


I believe that got dropped as part of an early Protocol amendment. We may still get to see a net balance after the conclusion of AC34.

Again, I think that starting over without any deals, any organization, including an ACWS that is well-backed by TV money and/or LE money, and by (suspect it is) LE's television technology, would be a very hard path to plow. Broadcasters, sponsors, teams, sailors, everyone wants far-sighted continuity instead of uncertainty; it is absolutely key to the event if your goal is to increase participation, something everyone who matters seems to think is important. Nothing about the Deed precludes a potential Defender from pre-agreeing broad, or even detailed, facets of how they will proceed should they win. It strikes me as a good idea on the whole if it can be done, and with this small a group of candidate next-Defenders the potential for agreement is surely ripe, at least at some macro-level.

Y'know if Ellison wants to control the AC going forward he better get used to writing the checks.

#51 maxmini

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:10 PM



I don't pretend to know GD's mind, and I doubt anyone who frequents this site has in depth conversations with the man so we are all just guessing what he would do if ETNZ gets the Cup. What I can see happening above all the talk about boats and ACWS is for ETNZ to structure their defense in such a way that ensure ETNZ the best possible chance to successfully defend initially and hold the Cup as long as possible. The Cup means more to a country like NZ then any other probably in the world in terms of prestige and getting that little corner of our world in the spot light. Add to it lessons learned from the AC31 defense, NZL81/82 design and training fuck up and EB being able to basically buy the heart of TNZ right out from under the Kiwi's, getting the Cup out of NZ a 2nd time will probably be close to impossible.

So all the talk about GD not being interested in anything developed or implemented by OR for AC34 makes perfect sense. If ETNZ wins AC35 will be a reset to the Cup that will suit ETNZ first and foremost. Strict nationality rules and a brand new boat rule that will require everyone to start from scratch will be the top priorities and things like the ACWS and whatever broadcasting rights are on the table to continue will be secondary if considered at all.

WetHog :ph34r:/>



All correct....except the part about ETNZ getting the Cup. They don't. Their bitch poodle club, RNZYS gets the Cup. The company Grant runs which manages their sailing team might get a crack at managing the operations of the Cup too.

Isn't it funny how the Kiwi Religious Right wants to condemn everything about GGYC and the way they have let ACEA run all the marketing, while having the most clear independent race management ever via ACRM and the Jury clearly being completely independent, but yet RNZYS is all but invisible in terms of this America's Cup?

If any club is a poddle in this Cup, it is RNZYS.

If you weren't so bitter and twisted, you'd actually see the invisibility of a YC in the AC as par for the course. Who remembers the YC of OR's first cOR whORe? or Alinghi's? Or Team Korea's? or ET? Or AR's?...
Get over yourself Bitter Peter: you're as insignificant in the scheme of things as most ACAnarchists are.

Back when it mattered most of us remembered the NYYC and even SDYC for that matter. The importance of the competing clubs has shrunk in keeping with the relevance of the AC to the general sailing public .

#52 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:10 PM

Pjf ^ Since he has already invested a lot into the ACWS (and more) then yes, LE may well be willing to continue writing checks. What Barclay said about the possibility to also pay for broadcasts next season is, to my reading, indicative of that.

#53 pjfranks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:15 PM

Pjf ^ Since he has already invested a lot into the ACWS (and more) then yes, LE may well be willing to continue writing checks. What Barclay said about the possibility to also pay for broadcasts next season is, to my reading, indicative of that.

What this tells clubs, teams and sponsors is that the AC34 sums don't add up. Big hole in pocket. Not much action.

#54 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:31 PM


Pjf ^ Since he has already invested a lot into the ACWS (and more) then yes, LE may well be willing to continue writing checks. What Barclay said about the possibility to also pay for broadcasts next season is, to my reading, indicative of that.

What this tells clubs, teams and sponsors is that the AC34 sums don't add up. Big hole in pocket. Not much action.

Shrug, that's what you apparently like to think it tells anyone.

I see LE's efforts as an investment that has been made, that could be capitalized on - instead of trashed if that's what GD really is doing. Any 'setting of the table' is money that everyone else doesn't have to go scrambling to find. You get the Red Bulls, Corums and JP Morgans of the world interested and participating at a ('hole in the pocket') price they are clearly happy to reach for, and who would otherwise without that early investment support not be able to do it for those teams. It sends a good and positive solid-footing message, instead of a negative one.

#55 Indio

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:30 PM

Pjf ^ Since he has already invested a lot into the ACWS (and more) then yes, LE may well be willing to continue writing checks. What Barclay said about the possibility to also pay for broadcasts next season is, to my reading, indicative of that.

LE's primary focus for several years has been the AC: the money he's spent on the WSL45 circus is the cost he's had to bear to keep Russell Coutts on the AC34 defence. I seriously doubt Ellison would continue to fund a WSL45 circus outside of the AC environment which is what will probably happen if ETNZ or LR wins the Match.

#56 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:53 PM

I don't think Larry is very happy now, none of his boat has been foiling yet despite spending vast amount of money for the AC, more in the ACWS, and even more with the youth events.

I allways thought that the ACWS can be detached from the AC, but can it be profitable ? Shall we see two competitive events, the AC with NZ, and the 45fts with Larry ?

#57 Indio

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:05 PM

The WSL45 circus has no place in the AC environment. For it to survive, they would have to look closely at the Extreme40 model and try to duplicate it or better still Uncle Larry can buy the Extreme40 Series and turn it into the LE45 EXTREME Ring Squeezer. But then he'd have to make the LE45 affordable or he'd end up with just their own 4 or 6 cats..

#58 pjfranks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

The WSL45 circus has no place in the AC environment. For it to survive, they would have to look closely at the Extreme40 model and try to duplicate it or better still Uncle Larry can buy the Extreme40 Series and turn it into the LE45 EXTREME Ring Squeezer. But then he'd have to make the LE45 affordable or he'd end up with just their own 4 or 6 cats..

Er... if it all goes pear shaped ACRM will own all the AC45s. That was the deal. All sales through ACRM.

#59 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:14 PM

The solution to make the 45, or another format, affordable is to forget the wing. It's expensive, fragile, difficult to rig and does not bring much upwind or close reach is we have a look at TNZ vs the Orma.

IMO, the winning solution is the Ex 40 format + foils + soft sail.

The paradox is that the work presently made on the foils for the AC could help bring a profitable world event with smaller cats.

#60 Indio

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:32 PM


The WSL45 circus has no place in the AC environment. For it to survive, they would have to look closely at the Extreme40 model and try to duplicate it or better still Uncle Larry can buy the Extreme40 Series and turn it into the LE45 EXTREME Ring Squeezer. But then he'd have to make the LE45 affordable or he'd end up with just their own 4 or 6 cats..

Er... if it all goes pear shaped ACRM will own all the AC45s. That was the deal. All sales through ACRM.

And do you think ACRM have paid the manufacturers from what source of funds?

#61 maxmini

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:36 PM



The WSL45 circus has no place in the AC environment. For it to survive, they would have to look closely at the Extreme40 model and try to duplicate it or better still Uncle Larry can buy the Extreme40 Series and turn it into the LE45 EXTREME Ring Squeezer. But then he'd have to make the LE45 affordable or he'd end up with just their own 4 or 6 cats..

Er... if it all goes pear shaped ACRM will own all the AC45s. That was the deal. All sales through ACRM.

And do you think ACRM have paid the manufacturers from what source of funds?


U B O L

#62 PeterHuston

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:47 PM

This bit is especially ironic..... funny how the Kiwi Religious Right wants to condemn everything about GGYC and the way they have let ACEA run all the marketing...

As we all know who has been the biggest marketing know-it-all and the harshest critic!

Sorry your City and your Team are not managing things better Peter (or does the 'P' stand for parochial?) - perhaps things will still pick-up?

All this dummy spitting is not a good look though mate!


Actually, Grant is pretty damned good at the marketing stuff. It is too bad he is responsible for the Grant Gag Rule, because he should have led the way in holding Worth and Thompson's feet to the fire as the challenger who most needed the AC to be a marketing success. On the topic of marketing of ACEA marketing flaws, Dalton and I would probably agree on most everything. Seriously, what has been a marketing success to date? That ACEA gave away the naming rights of the America's Cup to a sugar water company who is going to run an event in the name of the America's Cup that is a not a match race? Do you consider that a success? I don't. Please, tell me how I am wrong to not want to keep the brand integrity of the Cup in place? A series of fleet races for the youth AC that leads to a final that is a match race, I'd understand and support that. But just a series of fleet races to determine the winner of the youth AC....how is that valid?

BTW - not my city. I like SFO to visit, but don't live there.

#63 eric e

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:58 PM

BTW - not my city. I like SFO to visit, but don't live there.


yeah, i was bummed that the ban on public nudity

squeaked through too

it goes to heart of public honesty and advertising

Posted Image

#64 Hastings

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

Strict nationality rules and a brand new boat rule that will require everyone to start from scratch will be the top priorities and things like the ACWS and whatever broadcasting rights are on the table to continue will be secondary if considered at all.

WetHog :ph34r:


I understand your point here.

But Grant is interested in the event, not just his own syndicate.

Hence, what you say (above) is wrong.

There will be nationality rules. But not "strict."

Read what I said about this before.

#65 Hastings

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:01 PM

Because without the defender on board they cannot use the AC brand, and most believe they have no hope of success (with sponsors and TV) without the AC brand.


Sell it all to Keith Mills. And let him become the circus-master.

#66 Hastings

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:06 PM

There you go again, spraying gasoline all over the place with reckless abandon and then lighting matches!

Please forget the vituperation and explain how Kungliga Svenska Segelsällskapet and Circolo della Vela Sicilia are more visible than the squadron in this current challenge.


Peter ... KJ makes a good point here.

I have been to events on Halsey St and the RNZYS people are always there.

I agree with KJ. The RNZYS is visible where they are supposed to be.

In Aotearoa!

Probably about as visible as GGYC in SF.

Or more so!

#67 Hastings

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

There is no way ETNZ will be going to Monos. Why would you spend so much effort getting to the top of the pile of only a handful of teams. Then completely throwing away all that design and technical ability to go back to a boat that a huge amount of teams could compete. It will not happen If Etnz win it will be held in multis.


Maybe! Maybe not!

Right now there has been no decision.

Because between now and then there is the small matter of winning the Cup.

#68 Estar

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:26 PM


By the protocol ACEA is supposed to be producing financial statements (published to the competitors) every 6 months. They appear to be roughly $200m in the hole so far.


I believe that got dropped as part of an early Protocol amendment. We may still get to see a net balance after the conclusion of AC34.



No, its still in the latest protocal 41.8.


GD's problem is not wanting to get financially burdened by commitments he can't keep. He apparently wants some kind of guarantee that he can't be left holding a bill.



That seems both prudent and reasonable. And most likely LE is the only source of such a downside guarantee. That leaves two questions: #1 does GD want to be distracted by the required negotiation with LE at this very critical moment - I would guess not (negotiating with LE is a very strenuous game). And #2 could GD and LE find enough common ground to actually make a deal - from what I have heard probably not as LE wants more than GD will ever give and neither really 'needs' a deal.


starting over without any deals, any organization, .... would be a very hard path to plow.


That's one way (and Barkley's way) to frame it. An alternate way is to suggest that there are basically no valuable assets in ACEA - no sustainable revenue streams or deals, a shitty organization that has not accomplished much, no brand separate from the AC (which the winner/defender will own in any case), a nifty TV technology that is too expensive to actually use and which does not produce as much real viewer value as was expected (it still does not seem to help the announcers or viewers understand why one boat is making big gains vs the others).

One thing that Peter and I agree on is the great shame of the vast waste of resources that went on in ACEA. A smart focused team could have done so much for both the AC and for the sport with $200m, but instead its mostly been poured down a black hole never to be recovered. That sort of money probably will not be spent in the sport again in our lifetimes so its a one-time opportunity that has been missed.

They damn well should have hired Mark Turner (or one of the half dozen good guys like him), and many of us said that at the time, but he would not work with RC and RC's ego and RC's completely unrealistic vision. You don't like the term marketing so I will not use it - but they also needed someone, anyone, who understood the slightest bit about building viewer (internet and TV) interest (first among current sailors, and then second among general sports fans) but they have not and still do not seem to have acquired that skill. Then they needed a good salesman/dealmaker - that was the biggest surprise for me. I thought if they would be able to accomplish anything it would be that because OR is built on that culture and skill, but Tom Ehman (who somehow got sidelined in the whole deal) seemed to be the only 'closer'. None of these things would be very hard or take very long for GD to build/hire from scratch and he would quickly have something much stronger than ACEA.

#69 Estar

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:32 PM


Because without the defender on board they cannot use the AC brand, and most believe they have no hope of success (with sponsors and TV) without the AC brand.


Sell it all to Keith Mills. And let him become the circus-master.


You really can't. The deed does not give you anything to 'sell'. And it will be interesting to see what KM does with the French Open 60 program. I personally have not been so convinced he is the business god that some suggest. He looks to me more like a consultant than a real operator. Be interesting to hear Dogwatch's take on KM.

#70 atwinda

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:38 PM

Pretty incredible that some of you guys seem to know exactly what the likes of Grant, Larry, Russel, Paul, acrm/acea are thinking.

#71 Indio

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:52 PM

Pretty incredible that some of you guys seem to know exactly what the likes of Grant, Larry, Russel, Paul, acrm/acea are thinking.


That's because you're probably using different tea leaves...

#72 Hastings

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

You really can't. The deed does not give you anything to 'sell'.


Does the DOG have anything to do with the 45s? Don't think so.

However, if a pile of AC45s come to the market, I hope somebody buys and does something with them.

Nice boat! And well built in Aotearoa!

#73 kiwi_jon

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:22 AM


By the protocol ACEA is supposed to be producing financial statements (published to the competitors) every 6 months. They appear to be roughly $200m in the hole so far.


I believe that got dropped as part of an early Protocol amendment. We may still get to see a net balance after the conclusion of AC34.


Once again read the Protocol before spouting off.

The 6 monthly financial reporting is still a Protocol requirement of the Defender. What was removed from the Protocol was the requirement to provide a forecast of future event revenues, expenditures and net income.

That amendment was made in Oct 2011.

#74 ~Stingray~

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:28 AM

Again, lots of criticism but none of it constructive and none of it recognizing the obvious value that the ACWS has already demonstrated, even by GD's admission as a selling point in his own sponsorship negotiations.

If everyone had been told to just show up to take Larry's team on, in Sep '13, in big fast winged multihulls then I doubt so many teams would have jumped at the chance and doubt that even if they had, that anyone would have ultimately gotten funding. GD and Max S included. I also doubt anyone would have achieved the position that are now in, of having a realistic shot at winning the Cup, without the ability to first learn how to tame this type of beast.

PH goes on (and on) about how Team Canada would have made it if only, if only, they had control of revenue to be derived from Canadian broadcasts instead of a possible share of an overall event marketing scheme that included all broadcast rights, Canada included, all supposedly based on some tenuous relationship with someone at ESPN, dating back so some bygone decade, that PH felt got violated by some Craig Thompson conversation or comment, that apparently threatened PH's supposed role in whatever his advertised or imagined deal-making position was; but quite frankly if you read the ridiculous Canada thread the whole thing was baseless from the very get-go. So that was no constructive criticism either, that effort didn't make it even as far as the Alephs of the world managed to.

The opportunity for teams to go with an already-set ACWS schedule, by September, is what was really missing back then; and is what Barclay makes a pretty reasonable argument for being important to the next Defender too.

GD seems the only fly in that ointment, ~if~ that is happening; so perhaps in this situation it's worth focussing so much on just him. But it way exaggerates the chance he has of winning the Cup, probably also for his decision making power even if he did. If, as TK suggests, it would be by consensus with other interested parties, especially the supposed PB as CoR, then GD better hope an ACWS has an excellent a future plan as possible.

TC suggested above LE's power to outshine most anything a GD did if he chose to; several have even suggested, incorrectly as it turned out, that the ESS would upstage the ACWS instead of it fading into obscurity. What has been the primary willpower, the considerable for$e behind the ACWS? Would you ever bet against it?

#75 kiwi_jon

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:35 AM




Patrizio likes the ACWS, even likes the AC72's, he has flat out said so. GD has been more positive on the AC72 lately, and both DB and Gashby are, like Max Sirena too, very taken by it.


Stingray - can you please site your source?


He can't. Bertelli has flat out said at every opportunity that the AC72 is too expensive and that the cost is the reason for the poor number of Challengers.

He has publically stated several times that his goal is for ETNZ and LR to meet in the LV final as no matter who wins both teams share the same vision of lowering the cost of participation, be it in smaller catamarans or fast monohulls, to encourage more challenger participation.


I can, and will, find PB praising the AC72. (finding the likes of DB, Gashby, Sirena, JS, others, enthusing is almost like shooting fish in a barrel)

But more directly to the point (the future of an ACWS) here he is in the VS interview speaking about what's best for ~other~ teams. It is remarkably like what Barclay suggests too.

http://www.vsail.inf...e-americas-cup/


VSail.info: Has the America’s Cup been positive for the Prada group? Do you think that sponsors see a return on their investment?

Patrizio Bertelli: For Prada definitely yes, because it is now intrinsically linked with Luna Rossa. We are not a generic sponsor but a sponsor that created the conditions that led to the birth of the Luna Rossa myth.

VSail.info: Do you think the America’s Cup should or could be a commercial event, an event that would allow teams to exist purely on sponsorship money?

Patrizio Bertelli: Sponsors will put money once they see there is public attendance and general interest. It’s very difficult for a sponsor to spend money before seeing what is going on. It’s very probable that after this America’s Cup we see an increase in the interest from sponsors. I think that the issue over monohulls or multihulls is a secondary problem. The main problem is to make rules so that the boats used in the world circuit are closer to the ones used in the America’s Cup. I find the idea of a circuit very interesting, both the one organized by Bertarelli as well as the current one.

VSail.info: Would you have been in favor of racing the America’s Cup in the current AC45 yachts instead of the spectacular but enormous AC72′s?

Patrizio Bertelli: I personally think that probably it would have been better to do the America’s Cup on the AC45′s. We could have raced the circuit with strictly equal AC45 yachts and then establish a constraining rule that would give each team some liberty to design their yacht according to their own criteria.

VSail.info: What do you think of the new catamarans used now in the America’s Cup? If it were totally up to you would you have continued with the boats used in Valencia in 2007?

Patrizio Bertelli: No, those ones aren’t suitable either. We need to have boats able to attract more teams, not only in terms of numbers but of age as well, younger ones. In order to attract more teams we also have to lower costs. We need to find a way so that one can run a competitive America’s Cup campaign with a budget of 50 million euros.


Thankyou for proving my point. You cannot quote a source that 'flat out' says that Bertelli likes the AC72's.

#76 ~Stingray~

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:46 AM

^ I will prove you wrong, when it suits me enough to care ;)

The juxtaposition that happened between the echo-chamber of the ETNZ/GD sourced newspaper headlines, versus what PB actually said, was amazing.

#77 ice9a

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:53 AM

Does the DOG have anything to do with the 45s? Don't think so.


It does if you want to use the AC brand, as in ACWS or in AC45.

If you are suggesting someone should create a circus using the boats without any reference to the AC, then please remember that RC & PC tried (something very like) that previously and failed completely.

The challenge the deed poses is that to sell something AC branded now, for execution after 2013, required the unanimous agreement of all the challengers because anyone of them could control the brand after 2013. It would be a complex process/deal to get them all to agree and at least TNZ and LR probably don't want to be distracted during such an important time in their challenges and neither of them really 'need' the deal. Barclay (and perhaps RC depending on his financial arrangement with LE) is really the only one who 'needs' the deal.

#78 ice9a

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:02 AM

Again, lots of criticism but none of it constructive


hmmm . . . you may not like or agree with it, but it was 'constructive' . Any of the challengers (if they win) could simply dump (the expensive and ineffective) ACEA and:


They damn well should have hired Mark Turner (or one of the half dozen good guys like him), and many of us said that at the time, but he would not work with RC and RC's ego and RC's completely unrealistic vision. You don't like the term marketing so I will not use it - but they also needed someone, anyone, who understood the slightest bit about building viewer (internet and TV) interest (first among current sailors, and then second among general sports fans) but they have not and still do not seem to have acquired that skill. Then they needed a good salesman/dealmaker - that was the biggest surprise for me. I thought if they would be able to accomplish anything it would be that because OR is built on that culture and skill, but Tom Ehman (who somehow got sidelined in the whole deal) seemed to be the only 'closer'. None of these things would be very hard or take very long for GD to build/hire from scratch and he would quickly have something much stronger than ACEA.



#79 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:05 AM


Does the DOG have anything to do with the 45s? Don't think so.

It does if you want to use the AC brand, as in ACWS or in AC45.
If you are suggesting someone should create a circus using the boats without any reference to the AC, then please remember that RC & PC tried (something very like) that previously and failed completely.

The Extreme 40 succeeded where RC and PC failed.
As I already said, the wing is a pain and key for success (for whoever does it) is a 40 to 50ft boat + foils + canting sail.

#80 Estar

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:21 AM



Does the DOG have anything to do with the 45s? Don't think so.

It does if you want to use the AC brand, as in ACWS or in AC45.
If you are suggesting someone should create a circus using the boats without any reference to the AC, then please remember that RC & PC tried (something very like) that previously and failed completely.

The Extreme 40 succeeded where RC and PC failed.
As I already said, the wing is a pain and key for success (for whoever does it) is a 40 to 50ft boat + foils + canting sail.



I agree the wing is a 'pain' and the circus would be better (if it was a stand alone business) without it, but believe the real 'key for success' is in the human (leadership) aspect, more than the specific boat selection.

From both his Spinlock and Ellen days, Turner has a 'complete business understanding' of both the key sponsors needs and appealing to the viewers. In business RC only understands how to stroke $B's egos - but of course is a brilliant sailor and technical design manager. Too bad for OR he was distracted by running the circus when they really needed him and his excellent skills focused on the AC72 design.

#81 MoMP

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:33 AM


Pjf ^ Since he has already invested a lot into the ACWS (and more) then yes, LE may well be willing to continue writing checks. What Barclay said about the possibility to also pay for broadcasts next season is, to my reading, indicative of that.

LE's primary focus for several years has been the AC: the money he's spent on the WSL45 circus is the cost he's had to bear to keep Russell Coutts on the AC34 defence. I seriously doubt Ellison would continue to fund a WSL45 circus outside of the AC environment which is what will probably happen if ETNZ or LR wins the Match.


Wow. Is that how business is done in NZ? Yea, LE is RC sugar daddy sporting his sailing vision. These guys aren't retarded. LE is sporting the ACWS to give the teams value to sell to their sponsors.

#82 KiwiJoker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:09 AM

Again, lots of criticism but none of it constructive and none of it recognizing the obvious value that the ACWS has already demonstrated, even by GD's admission as a selling point in his own sponsorship negotiations.

If everyone had been told to just show up to take Larry's team on, in Sep '13, in big fast winged multihulls then I doubt so many teams would have jumped at the chance and doubt that even if they had, that anyone would have ultimately gotten funding. GD and Max S included. I also doubt anyone would have achieved the position that are now in, of having a realistic shot at winning the Cup, without the ability to first learn how to tame this type of beast.

PH goes on (and on) about how Team Canada would have made it if only, if only, they had control of revenue to be derived from Canadian broadcasts instead of a possible share of an overall event marketing scheme that included all broadcast rights, Canada included, all supposedly based on some tenuous relationship with someone at ESPN, dating back so some bygone decade, that PH felt got violated by some Craig Thompson conversation or comment, that apparently threatened PH's supposed role in whatever his advertised or imagined deal-making position was; but quite frankly if you read the ridiculous Canada thread the whole thing was baseless from the very get-go. So that was no constructive criticism either, that effort didn't make it even as far as the Alephs of the world managed to.

The opportunity for teams to go with an already-set ACWS schedule, by September, is what was really missing back then; and is what Barclay makes a pretty reasonable argument for being important to the next Defender too.

GD seems the only fly in that ointment, ~if~ that is happening; so perhaps in this situation it's worth focussing so much on just him. But it way exaggerates the chance he has of winning the Cup, probably also for his decision making power even if he did. If, as TK suggests, it would be by consensus with other interested parties, especially the supposed PB as CoR, then GD better hope an ACWS has an excellent a future plan as possible.

TC suggested above LE's power to outshine most anything a GD did if he chose to; several have even suggested, incorrectly as it turned out, that the ESS would upstage the ACWS instead of it fading into obscurity. What has been the primary willpower, the considerable for$e behind the ACWS? Would you ever bet against it?


Nice summary. It points up the inherent contradiction of the modern day America's Cup Those who want change - in any direction - are essentially barred from achieving it unless they win the Cup. And once they win the Cup they're then relieved of the responsibility of running the kind of event that others might want. Witness EB's shenanigans.

As you and others have noted, Larry and Wussell admirably chose instead to design the current cycle with independent marketing and management and a Jury beholden only to the Good of the Cup. They also, for a bunch of reasons brought us AC45s, an international circuit, vast TV innovations and a youth event. Bully for them. FWIW here, I don't buy the mean-spirited jibes that Coutts Cayard were merely trying to inject life into their moribund professional circuit. It's just as easy to say that they donated all their planning and intellectual rights to the AC45 circuit and, I submit, indeed far more valid.

Recognizing that their efforts might well be for naught if they lost the Cup, they strove as no-one ever has before to get all challengers aboard with their plans for the future as soon as challenger entries were finalized. But then it was too late. They were stymied by the extensions they permitted to the challenger deadline. By the time of the October meeting Dalton was sufficiently disenchanted by defender politics and also aware of his team's chances of victory that there was no rational reason for him to sign off on future plans. Which is not to say that he might not relent after further bargaining.

Which brings us to Dalts. I don't see him as fly in the ointment as much as keeping his powder dry. ETNZ is the only challenger without a billionaire angel and it faces major logistical costs in campaigning a boat on a Northern Hemisphere circuit. And if the Kiwi team should win the Cup it faces a massive task staging AC35. Plenty reason for Dalts to play his cards close to the vest. Especially if, as I believe, he does not have a fixed opinion on the type of boat for the next Cup - mono, cat, softsail, or wing.

Lots of runway here for this to play out. It won't be resolved until the successful challenger and the defender finalize their new Protocol in time for the last race of AC34.

#83 Indio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:47 AM


LE's primary focus for several years has been the AC: the money he's spent on the WSL45 circus is the cost he's had to bear to keep Russell Coutts on the AC34 defence. I seriously doubt Ellison would continue to fund a WSL45 circus outside of the AC environment which is what will probably happen if ETNZ or LR wins the Match.


Wow. Is that how business is done in NZ?

Nope, you pull your weight or you get told to pull up stakes and fuck off. Pretty simple really...

Yea, LE is RC sugar daddy sporting his sailing vision. These guys aren't retarded. LE is sporting the ACWS to give the teams value to sell to their sponsors.

And what has Larry got to show for it?? A large $200-mil hole, from all accounts. That's not chump change, even for LE.

#84 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:13 AM




Does the DOG have anything to do with the 45s? Don't think so.

It does if you want to use the AC brand, as in ACWS or in AC45.
If you are suggesting someone should create a circus using the boats without any reference to the AC, then please remember that RC & PC tried (something very like) that previously and failed completely.

The Extreme 40 succeeded where RC and PC failed.
As I already said, the wing is a pain and key for success (for whoever does it) is a 40 to 50ft boat + foils + canting sail.



I agree the wing is a 'pain' and the circus would be better (if it was a stand alone business) without it, but believe the real 'key for success' is in the human (leadership) aspect, more than the specific boat selection.

From both his Spinlock and Ellen days, Turner has a 'complete business understanding' of both the key sponsors needs and appealing to the viewers. In business RC only understands how to stroke $B's egos - but of course is a brilliant sailor and technical design manager. Too bad for OR he was distracted by running the circus when they really needed him and his excellent skills focused on the AC72 design.


I don't know Turner business understanding but, if you say so, I trust you.

I think Russell has the righ vision with poor execution:

- the AC72 is an overkill, 50ft or 60ft would have been as good and cheaper. He understood that.

- the wing is not necessary. He understood that too.

- races within the cities. He understood that for the ACWS, but with the wrong cities, until Venice.

- virtual TV graphics are good but require too much money and are not necessary.

- IMO, main fail is the race course, even with the graphics, Nascar public is not able to understand sailing. They need the old olympic triangle with longer reach. This public only understands simple things like cars on a race track. They can organize long reach with cats screaming at 40 knots in front of hundred of thousands of spectators in cities like SF, NY, Boston, Hong Kong. It is fast, spectacular, easy to follow, good for TV and spectators.Why don't they do it ? In fact, despite his unability to understand sailing, Eagles PDX had a good understanding of what an untrained public eye would need.

I will not blame marketing guys not to have been able to sell well enough a new and unfinished product to the public.

#85 Hastings

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:45 AM

I think Russell has the righ vision with poor execution:

- the AC72 is an overkill, 50ft or 60ft would have been as good and cheaper. He understood that.

- the wing is not necessary. He understood that too.

- races within the cities. He understood that for the ACWS, but with the wrong cities, until Venice.

- virtual TV graphics are good but require too much money and are not necessary.

- IMO, main fail is the race course, even with the graphics, Nascar public is not able to understand sailing. They need the old olympic triangle with longer reach. This public only understands simple things like cars on a race track. They can organize long reach with cats screaming at 40 knots in front of hundred of thousands of spectators in cities like SF, NY, Boston, Hong Kong. It is fast, spectacular, easy to follow, good for TV and spectators.Why don't they do it ? In fact, despite his unability to understand sailing, Eagles PDX had a good understanding of what an untrained public eye would need.

I will not blame marketing guys not to have been able to sell well enough a new and unfinished product to the public.


This is a good analysis by TC.

I have to confess to having some sympathy for RC.

The idea of having these nifty AC45s as some kind of "feeder" to the AC was not bad.

But, where it all turned to custard was in treating people like idiots (eg. best sailors/fastest boats; flintstones/facebook etc etc etc).

Once they hired Worth and the other bloke, it was game over.

Ernesto + Larry both want to turn the AC into money.

They should go back and read about what Schuyler and the lads were thinking.

Why do people with vast amounts of money always want more, more, more?

#86 dogwatch

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:50 AM

No one screams about their fanatical preaching of self-righteousness quite like the Kiwi Religious Right in their blind raging support of the team from RNZYS.


You actively and consistently supported the shrill self-righteousness of Ehman et al during AC33. Given your former position, criticising others for doing the same shows a woeful lack of self-awareness.

I'm not an ETNZ supporter and never will be but I find even their most ardent boosters less obnoxious than OR's amen-corner.

#87 dogwatch

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:56 AM

GD should just say Okay, whatever sponsorship deal incomes you can sign up for an ACWS 35 event series, I would uphold and commit to the running of that event, for everyone's benefit. It costs him nothing.


It would cost me nothing to promise you to write you a cheque for $1M in October 2013. Fulfilling the promise would however cost me $1M.

Anyone promising to maintain the loss-making ACWS circus is either making a promise they don't plan to keep or taking on a major future liability. Good for GD in declining to do either.

#88 dogwatch

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:00 AM

the current cycle with independent marketing and management and a Jury beholden only to the Good of the Cup.


Granted ACRM and the IJ are independent of OR and GGYC. But ACEA? I don't believe that is correct.

#89 dogwatch

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:08 AM

If everyone had been told to just show up to take Larry's team on, in Sep '13, in big fast winged multihulls then I doubt so many teams would have jumped at the chance and doubt that even if they had, that anyone would have ultimately gotten funding. GD and Max S included. I also doubt anyone would have achieved the position that are now in, of having a realistic shot at winning the Cup, without the ability to first learn how to tame this type of beast.


Come off it. Two years ago it was plausible that the ACWS would allow teams (I mean actual LVC teams) to develop sponsorship deals. I thought so, almost everybody thought so. Manifestly however that didn't turn out to be the case.

#90 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:51 PM


I think Russell has the righ vision with poor execution:

- the AC72 is an overkill, 50ft or 60ft would have been as good and cheaper. He understood that.

- the wing is not necessary. He understood that too.

- races within the cities. He understood that for the ACWS, but with the wrong cities, until Venice.

- virtual TV graphics are good but require too much money and are not necessary.

- IMO, main fail is the race course, even with the graphics, Nascar public is not able to understand sailing. They need the old olympic triangle with longer reach. This public only understands simple things like cars on a race track. They can organize long reach with cats screaming at 40 knots in front of hundred of thousands of spectators in cities like SF, NY, Boston, Hong Kong. It is fast, spectacular, easy to follow, good for TV and spectators.Why don't they do it ? In fact, despite his unability to understand sailing, Eagles PDX had a good understanding of what an untrained public eye would need.

I will not blame marketing guys not to have been able to sell well enough a new and unfinished product to the public.


This is a good analysis by TC.

I have to confess to having some sympathy for RC.

The idea of having these nifty AC45s as some kind of "feeder" to the AC was not bad.

But, where it all turned to custard was in treating people like idiots (eg. best sailors/fastest boats; flintstones/facebook etc etc etc).

Once they hired Worth and the other bloke, it was game over.

Ernesto + Larry both want to turn the AC into money.

They should go back and read about what Schuyler and the lads were thinking.

Why do people with vast amounts of money always want more, more, more?


You are right to say that both Ernesto and Larry have been willing to turn the AC into money. I think both now want to turn sailing into money.
If you read carefully some posters here, it looks like if Larry had already given up on the AC and already thinks to a future event.

#91 PeterHuston

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:02 PM


No one screams about their fanatical preaching of self-righteousness quite like the Kiwi Religious Right in their blind raging support of the team from RNZYS.


You actively and consistently supported the shrill self-righteousness of Ehman et al during AC33. Given your former position, criticising others for doing the same shows a woeful lack of self-awareness.

I'm not an ETNZ supporter and never will be but I find even their most ardent boosters less obnoxious than OR's amen-corner.


Bit difference between 33 and 34. Erne$to was hijacking the event, if not the sport, making secret deals with ISAF for the use of engines (which backfired on him big time) and then the representatives from SNG staged a mutiny on the RC boat. Besides, GGYC was proven correct in every instance.

I've been as harsh as anyone on the management of ACEA.

The Kiwi Religious Right is just about being a bunch of whiney little bitches over generally nothing of substance, complaining about the high cost of yacht racing, particularly for the AC, none of which is anything new, while prejudging the fate of everything on the race course while teams are going through warm up laps.

#92 GauchoGreg

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:39 PM

There is no way ETNZ will be going to Monos. Why would you spend so much effort getting to the top of the pile of only a handful of teams. Then completely throwing away all that design and technical ability to go back to a boat that a huge amount of teams could compete. It will not happen If Etnz win it will be held in multis.


Just imagine the excitement and intrigue of backtracking to 20knt monos and horizon sailing with little more hazard than a ripped sail following 50knt multis, spray, and the excitement of being truly on the edge. That's the way to drum up excitement, viewer numbers, advertising money, and more teams. "But it's cheaper . . ."

#93 Estar

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:58 PM

Just imagine the excitement and intrigue of backtracking to 20knt monos and horizon sailing with little more hazard than a ripped sail following 50knt multis, spray, and the excitement of being truly on the edge. That's the way to drum up excitement, viewer numbers, advertising money, and more teams. "But it's cheaper . . ."


Still think that 'speed is what sells'? If so there are plenty of 'fast' sports, with more 'excitement', and some even with more spray. AC sailing, even on the AC72's comes out a distant back-marker as a spectator extreme sport. It's a crowded media niche, and not a winning positioning for the AC.

The aspects that sponsors have actually found more uniquely valuable about the AC than 'speed and spray' are the tactical (both the competitor 'chess' and the weather) and the teamwork and the 'high class', and the technology. Now some of that favors multis and some favors monos, and I have no ax to grind on that question. But the focus on 'speed and spray' is misplaced.

#94 dogwatch

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:12 PM

Just imagine the excitement and intrigue of backtracking to 20knt monos and horizon sailing with little more hazard than a ripped sail following 50knt multis, spray, and the excitement of being truly on the edge.


Cars were going as fast as Vestas Sailrocket at the dawn of the 20th century. Sailboats just aren't fast. If speed is all sailing has to offer, it's fucked.

Some of us, however, like racing. Not a dumbed-down pale imitation but the real thing.

#95 maxmini

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:14 PM


Just imagine the excitement and intrigue of backtracking to 20knt monos and horizon sailing with little more hazard than a ripped sail following 50knt multis, spray, and the excitement of being truly on the edge. That's the way to drum up excitement, viewer numbers, advertising money, and more teams. "But it's cheaper . . ."


Still think that 'speed is what sells'? If so there are plenty of 'fast' sports, with more 'excitement', and some even with more spray. AC sailing, even on the AC72's comes out a distant back-marker as a spectator extreme sport. It's a crowded media niche, and not a winning positioning for the AC.

The aspects that sponsors have actually found more uniquely valuable about the AC than 'speed and spray' are the tactical (both the competitor 'chess' and the weather) and the teamwork and the 'high class', and the technology. Now some of that favors multis and some favors monos, and I have no ax to grind on that question. But the focus on 'speed and spray' is misplaced.


Well said but some will never get it . Speed is not all it takes to provide competition.

#96 maxmini

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:17 PM


Just imagine the excitement and intrigue of backtracking to 20knt monos and horizon sailing with little more hazard than a ripped sail following 50knt multis, spray, and the excitement of being truly on the edge.


Cars were going as fast as Vestas Sailrocket at the dawn of the 20th century. Sailboats just aren't fast. If speed is all sailing has to offer, it's fucked.

Some of us, however, like racing. Not a dumbed-down pale imitation but the real thing.


Could not agree more.

AC " light " for the masses and reality TV .

#97 PeterHuston

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:43 PM



Just imagine the excitement and intrigue of backtracking to 20knt monos and horizon sailing with little more hazard than a ripped sail following 50knt multis, spray, and the excitement of being truly on the edge.


Cars were going as fast as Vestas Sailrocket at the dawn of the 20th century. Sailboats just aren't fast. If speed is all sailing has to offer, it's fucked.

Some of us, however, like racing. Not a dumbed-down pale imitation but the real thing.


Could not agree more.

AC " light " for the masses and reality TV .


Reality TV without drama = no viewers.

#98 GauchoGreg

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

Whether the boats are mono or multihull will make little difference in the scheme of things. The first question is really about how to create sponsor/media value.


I don't know how you can say that. Unless they can find a way to make monohulls actually be exciting to WATCH for the average viewer (not just hard core sailing people), then I believe it (the choice of multihulls) absolutely makes a difference in improving sponsor / media value.

#99 GauchoGreg

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:14 PM





Does the DOG have anything to do with the 45s? Don't think so.

It does if you want to use the AC brand, as in ACWS or in AC45.
If you are suggesting someone should create a circus using the boats without any reference to the AC, then please remember that RC & PC tried (something very like) that previously and failed completely.

The Extreme 40 succeeded where RC and PC failed.
As I already said, the wing is a pain and key for success (for whoever does it) is a 40 to 50ft boat + foils + canting sail.



I agree the wing is a 'pain' and the circus would be better (if it was a stand alone business) without it, but believe the real 'key for success' is in the human (leadership) aspect, more than the specific boat selection.

From both his Spinlock and Ellen days, Turner has a 'complete business understanding' of both the key sponsors needs and appealing to the viewers. In business RC only understands how to stroke $B's egos - but of course is a brilliant sailor and technical design manager. Too bad for OR he was distracted by running the circus when they really needed him and his excellent skills focused on the AC72 design.


I don't know Turner business understanding but, if you say so, I trust you.

I think Russell has the righ vision with poor execution:

- the AC72 is an overkill, 50ft or 60ft would have been as good and cheaper. He understood that.

- the wing is not necessary. He understood that too.

- races within the cities. He understood that for the ACWS, but with the wrong cities, until Venice.

- virtual TV graphics are good but require too much money and are not necessary.

- IMO, main fail is the race course, even with the graphics, Nascar public is not able to understand sailing. They need the old olympic triangle with longer reach. This public only understands simple things like cars on a race track. They can organize long reach with cats screaming at 40 knots in front of hundred of thousands of spectators in cities like SF, NY, Boston, Hong Kong. It is fast, spectacular, easy to follow, good for TV and spectators.Why don't they do it ? In fact, despite his unability to understand sailing, Eagles PDX had a good understanding of what an untrained public eye would need.

I will not blame marketing guys not to have been able to sell well enough a new and unfinished product to the public.


Good post.

One other thing you forgot, IMO, is that it matters not how much money you put into incredible broadcasting, how great the boat is, and even if they made the course better, if you don't actually make people know about it and want to watch it. There has been virtually NO promotion, and no creation of intrigue with the general public. Crappy job of promoting the boats, the racing, the personalities, the venues, the production . . . .

#100 GauchoGreg

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:18 PM


If everyone had been told to just show up to take Larry's team on, in Sep '13, in big fast winged multihulls then I doubt so many teams would have jumped at the chance and doubt that even if they had, that anyone would have ultimately gotten funding. GD and Max S included. I also doubt anyone would have achieved the position that are now in, of having a realistic shot at winning the Cup, without the ability to first learn how to tame this type of beast.


Come off it. Two years ago it was plausible that the ACWS would allow teams (I mean actual LVC teams) to develop sponsorship deals. I thought so, almost everybody thought so. Manifestly however that didn't turn out to be the case.


Had they actually set up the venues and promoted the events, maybe by now we would start seeing the fruits of such work. I can understand, early on, no matter how good of a job they did, that securing sponsors would have been hard. But had they done it right, I could also see some great foundation for sponsor deals lining up for AC35. Unfortunately, I don't know that much progress has been made to move forward into AC35 from the ACWS, due to the poor promotion of it. Hopefully next summer will drum up support, and we can see some momentum for actual development of commercial viability.




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