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#1 Guvacine

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:45 PM

Congratulations Sailrocket!! I pray that these new speed records in OPEN WATER will put an end to the ludicrous artificial ditch "speed records" by the kiters. No offence to kiters in general, but the kiting "speed records" are an anachronism that clearly emerged from the indulgent WSSRC rules (check them out), and the decisions by officials to recognise ARTIFICIAL courses as being the same as natural contexts and conditions. When you look at speed records in open water, kiters in general are slower than windsurfers which reveals that the whole recent apparent dominance of kiter "speed records" is a trick, and artifact of the artificial speed ditches. Rant over.

#2 BobJ

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:29 PM

http://www.surfertod...ridge-race-2012

#3 Walrus

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:29 PM

Tell someone who cares.

#4 RedTuna

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:00 PM

Ditch runs aren't an issue when everyone realizes where the records are set. Anyone who cares, knows.

I'd love to see a Sailrocket tour of flat water sites. Bird Island Basin near Corpus Christi would be an awesome venue with a Southeast breeze. Wouldn't be limited to 1.04 miles, either.

Geez, only a handful of posts and most are chock full of negativity. Lighten up.


“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?

Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?

Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”

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#5 JumpingJax

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:07 PM

...
Geez, only a handful of posts and most are chock full of negativity. Lighten up.


“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?

...

Posted Image


It's the negative waves that really make these things move. Postitive waves are really slow. If it wasn't for negativity, we'd still be mired down with wooden ships and iron men, all going slow. No records.

#6 Ryley

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:39 PM

Congratulations Sailrocket!! I pray that these new speed records in OPEN WATER will put an end to the ludicrous artificial ditch "speed records" by the kiters. No offence to kiters in general, but the kiting "speed records" are an anachronism that clearly emerged from the indulgent WSSRC rules (check them out), and the decisions by officials to recognise ARTIFICIAL courses as being the same as natural contexts and conditions. When you look at speed records in open water, kiters in general are slower than windsurfers which reveals that the whole recent apparent dominance of kiter "speed records" is a trick, and artifact of the artificial speed ditches. Rant over.


Congratulations Sailrocket!! I pray that these new speed records in ONE DIRECTION will put an end to the ludicrous idea that sailboats can sail on two whole separate tacks!

Seriously, glass houseboy... you sure you want to open this debate? For the record, 68 knots under wind power alone is awesome no matter the vehicle, or the venue, but it's still a 1-trick pony. Go the Hydroptere!!

#7 Somebody Else

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:31 PM

I pray that these new speed records in ONE DIRECTION will put an end to the ludicrous idea that sailboats can sail on two whole separate tacks!

Seriously, glass houseboy... you sure you want to open this debate? For the record, 68 knots under wind power alone is awesome no matter the vehicle, or the venue, but it's still a 1-trick pony. Go the Hydroptere!!


I would agree if that was all there was to it.

However, Larso et. al. have stated repeatedly that VSR is a research platform. That it happens to be setting records is a nice touch. We hope to eventually see some of these breakthroughs applied to more versatile craft.

I think everyone agrees that a one-way proa is not a particular cat which needs skinning.

So... research platform.

#8 Ishmael

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:12 AM

That's one fucking fast platform.

#9 DA-WOODY

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:45 AM

I pray that these new speed records in ONE DIRECTION will put an end to the ludicrous idea that sailboats can sail on two whole separate tacks!

Seriously, glass houseboy... you sure you want to open this debate? For the record, 68 knots under wind power alone is awesome no matter the vehicle, or the venue, but it's still a 1-trick pony. Go the Hydroptere!!


I would agree if that was all there was to it.

However, Larso et. al. have stated repeatedly that VSR is a research platform. That it happens to be setting records is a nice touch. We hope to eventually see some of these breakthroughs applied to more versatile craft.

I think everyone agrees that a one-way proa is not a particular cat which needs skinning.

So... research platform.


jus wondering - if all the boats racing around the world

Go "Just WEST" or "Just EAST" should we bag them till they Turn N Burn back the other way too ??

I mean Why Not call those One Way MoFo's what they are ...eh :o :o :o :lol: B)

#10 Somebody Else

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:00 PM

Go "jus wondering - if all the boats racing around the world
Just WEST" or "Just EAST" should we bag them till they Turn N Burn back the other way too ??


Even those special-purpose boats face conditions which are opposite of their design biases. They are still pretty versatile, compared to, you know... SailRocket.

#11 Guvacine

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

The proa is an ancient rig design used by indigenous Pacific sailors since prehistory. Because the proa preceeds any modern rig, the argument that it is somehow not a legitimate rig is plain dumb.

Can we stay on topic - my rant was that the ARTIFICAL speed ditches should never have been recognised as comparable to a NATURAL open water setting? Recognizing kite ditch "speed records" as being the same as speed records in open water is a non-sequitor - apples and oranges.

#12 Ryley

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:29 PM

The proa is an ancient rig design used by indigenous Pacific sailors since prehistory. Because the proa preceeds any modern rig, the argument that it is somehow not a legitimate rig is plain dumb.

Can we stay on topic - my rant was that the ARTIFICAL speed ditches should never have been recognised as comparable to a NATURAL open water setting? Recognizing kite ditch "speed records" as being the same as speed records in open water is a non-sequitor - apples and oranges.


As is comparing a one-trick-pony to a vessel with the ability to sail on more than one tack (which btw the kites can do.) your on-topic rant is crazy. don't you think if there were a ditch big enough sailrocket would be in it? why are they sailing somewhere that has an offshore breeze that strong? because there's not much fetch for the waves to build. There are plenty of high-wind venues in the world, why are they in namibia, for the scenery? I'll bet a kite would do quite well where sailrocket is. Look, you have a point, but don't extrapolate that somehow sailrocket hasn't taken advantage of the very thing you're ranting against.

#13 Guvacine

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

I'm not extrapolating anything - Sailrocket is taking advantage of a strong wind in open water - period. There is not a comparison between this and building an artificial ditch to idealize all conditions for a particular "craft" - this is a trick (not a contest). If the big speed kiters are so confident about there abilities and the validity of their records, why don't they set their records apples to apples on open water?

#14 DA-WOODY

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:36 PM

how fast has anyone gone on a skimboard in a hurricane down a freeway with 1/8" of water wearing just a Trench Coat

Ready for Take-Off

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#15 Raked aft \\

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:53 PM

I'm not extrapolating anything - Sailrocket is taking advantage of a strong wind in open water - period. There is not a comparison between this and building an artificial ditch to idealize all conditions for a particular "craft" - this is a trick (not a contest). If the big speed kiters are so confident about there abilities and the validity of their records, why don't they set their records apples to apples on open water?


You're right, you're not extrapolating... You're just wrong.

I don't know your sailing/boating background, but ever since they've been recording speed sailing records, they have not been set in "open water". Meaning a sea state unincumbered by a land mass. All the Crossbows, Hydroptere, Yellow pages, windsurfers, kiters and SR2 have set their records with a protected sea state. Period! Some more protected then others, but none the less protected.

Calling any of the boardsailors/kiters, "tricksters" is simply ignorant disrespect.

#16 Guvacine

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:14 PM

You are being disengenuous - a "protected sea state" is not the same as a man-made ditch.

By "open water" I mean NOT in an ARTIFICIAL contrivance. Crossbows, Hydroptere , Yellow Pages etc. did not sail in a man-made ditch.

I am not "calling out" speed kiters or being ignorant or disprespectful - I am saying that if they are confident that their speed achievements are real (and not a trick) to compete on an equal footing in open water (protected or otherwise) - apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

#17 Raked aft \\

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:07 PM

You are being disengenuous - a "protected sea state" is not the same as a man-made ditch.

By "open water" I mean NOT in an ARTIFICIAL contrivance. Crossbows, Hydroptere , Yellow Pages etc. did not sail in a man-made ditch.

I am not "calling out" speed kiters or being ignorant or disprespectful - I am saying that if they are confident that their speed achievements are real (and not a trick) to compete on an equal footing in open water (protected or otherwise) - apples to apples, not apples to oranges.


Here are a couple of shots to point out why I feel your perception of the trench advantage is exagerated.

This is Robbie Douglas in Martha's vinyard, in what you would call " open water ' or natural.

Posted Image
Posted Image

Above is Antoine Albeau, in the (man made) trench in Luderitz just last week setting a new windsurfing record.

Aside from the obvious difference is windspeed, can you tell me a decernable difference in the water?
Yep, there both sailing in pretty frick'n flat water.

The real reason they dig the trench is 1) It's in a really consistently windy location on the planet and 2) it is a known consistant (safe) depth.

Rant on...

Btw. This shot was taken in the trench as well. Not so buttery flat...
Posted Image

#18 Guvacine

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:12 PM

Thanks Raked aft - this is my point exactly. Robbie's run at Martha's would be legit because he is NOT in an artificail ditch - it could be compared to other runs in open water.

Antoine is sailing in an artificial ditch so his runs are comparable only to other runs in a ditch.

So, apples to apples - how fast did Robbie go at Martha's Vineyard?

#19 Raked aft \\

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

Thanks Raked aft - this is my point exactly. Robbie's run at Martha's would be legit because he is NOT in an artificail ditch - it could be compared to other runs in open water.

Antoine is sailing in an artificial ditch so his runs are comparable only to other runs in a ditch.

So, apples to apples - how fast did Robbie go at Martha's Vineyard?


Robbie and the the field were slow this yr in MV, but it isn't the water! it's the wind!
They had peak winds around 30, where in Luderitz last yr when robbie set the record they were
in the high 30's to mid 40's. The wind in Luderitz is also very consistent across the whole 500m.
Where in other places it is much more fluctuating, which makes it difficult to lock into the groove.

Don't believe me, Talk to the guys on the course, they'll tell you its not the water.

#20 Guvacine

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:41 PM

What it means to me is that when you have to sail in natural conditions in open water you have to deal with all of the variables of a natural setting and it is hard to go faster - see your own post above about the Kiter's speeds this year at Martha's VIneyard. What it also means to me is that if ditches were excluded the recent list of sailing speed records would look entirely different. Keep your ditch runs, but just don't pretend that they are the same as sailing in natural conditions on open water.

#21 Cheesy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:47 PM

What it means to me is that when you have to sail in natural conditions in open water you have to deal with all of the variables of a natural setting and it is hard to go faster - see your own post above about the Kiter's speeds this year at Martha's VIneyard. What it also means to me is that if ditches were excluded the recent list of sailing speed records would look entirely different. Keep your ditch runs, but just don't pretend that they are the same as sailing in natural conditions on open water.


The problem is having all of the timing equipment on hand to do a run which can be ratified for the speed record. Having the trench gave them the best chance of having the correct conditions, the correct people and equipment.

If there was a small GPS that could be used there would be no need for the trench and the kites would likely be faster again

#22 shanghaisailor

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:07 PM

Bit off course Guvacine. Taking nothing away from SR but even back to Crossbow and the Waymouth Speed Weeks - yes I am old enough to be as gobsmacked by what SHE did back then at 26kts. Why Weymouth and not the middle of the English Channel - flat water.

We all know bumps slow us down whichever way you look at it. Listen to Larso's video of the record run and hear the stress in his voice as he goes through "rough water, rough water"

The man made ditch as you call it is, in effect, a piece of water with a breakwater on both sides.

The course in Namibia is a one sided ditch dug out by nature not man.

Both stretches of water are relatively shallow and will a very short fetch for the waves to form- please elucidate with what the difference is.

The issue I have with the kitesurfers having a sailing speed record is their "vessel" with a person on board sinks when it is not moving. :mellow:

Can't take it away from the whole sailrocket team, their research has solved the major problem with a proper boat going beyond a certain speed - ventilation- and look at the effect, a 20% record increase - and that's with a relatively unsophisticated wing. 2.something x windspeed is awesome.

The 'pilot' could even sit on the boat after the run with a big grin on his face.

Just my penny worth

See ya on the water

SS

#23 Murphness

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:08 PM


Congratulations Sailrocket!! I pray that these new speed records in OPEN WATER will put an end to the ludicrous artificial ditch "speed records" by the kiters. No offence to kiters in general, but the kiting "speed records" are an anachronism that clearly emerged from the indulgent WSSRC rules (check them out), and the decisions by officials to recognise ARTIFICIAL courses as being the same as natural contexts and conditions. When you look at speed records in open water, kiters in general are slower than windsurfers which reveals that the whole recent apparent dominance of kiter "speed records" is a trick, and artifact of the artificial speed ditches. Rant over.


Congratulations Sailrocket!! I pray that these new speed records in ONE DIRECTION will put an end to the ludicrous idea that sailboats can sail on two whole separate tacks!

Seriously, glass houseboy... you sure you want to open this debate? For the record, 68 knots under wind power alone is awesome no matter the vehicle, or the venue, but it's still a 1-trick pony. Go the Hydroptere!!


Ryley,

Kind of surprised by your reaction to this amazing acomplishment. While I share your love for hydroptere and agree that their accomplishments should be held in the same light, the Sail Rocket team deserve a bit more credit then calling them a one trick pony...

They've been at this for 13? years now and I think the purpose was to see how fast a wind powered boat can go. The focus wasn't on a boat that was ocean going, or for day sailing/racing, it was simply to make it go as fast as possible. The record is written in such a way that permits this sort of craft to compete for it, so you can't fault them for taking it. The record was obviously a goal of theirs, but the main thing I think is that they wanted to go really freaking fast. If you look back through their progress over the years you'll see that the process has been scientific and the data they've collected could help sailing and foil development in a huge way.

Also, nothing against Kites, but sail rocket is actually "sailing" in my mind...

Clark Sail summed it up really well here http://clarksail.com...ket-is-special/

Cheers,

-Murph

#24 windsurfer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:32 PM

Don't believe me, Talk to the guys on the course, they'll tell you its not the water.


I've done plenty of speed trials including the Janzen speed series behind an artifical barrier in the Gorge.

Believe me, the water has a huge impact on the speed of a sailboard - to the extent that being 1' from the barrier was way faster than being 3' away.

I suspect that if sailrocket had access to a big enough trench, they would have used it.

In any event, this is an amazing accomplishment for the Sailrocket team

also massive respect for Robbie and Antoine for their accomplishments.

-jd

#25 Raked aft \\

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:32 AM


Don't believe me, Talk to the guys on the course, they'll tell you its not the water.


I've done plenty of speed trials including the Janzen speed series behind an artifical barrier in the Gorge.

Believe me, the water has a huge impact on the speed of a sailboard - to the extent that being 1' from the barrier was way faster than being 3' away.

I suspect that if sailrocket had access to a big enough trench, they would have used it.

In any event, this is an amazing accomplishment for the Sailrocket team

also massive respect for Robbie and Antoine for their accomplishments.

-jd

Just to clarify, I meant the water state being relatively similar, like the shots of MV & Luderitz above, makes less difference than steady strong wind like luderitz. based on the vids of the recent MV event, it was not the water state holding them back.

#26 Ryley

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:13 AM



Congratulations Sailrocket!! I pray that these new speed records in OPEN WATER will put an end to the ludicrous artificial ditch "speed records" by the kiters. No offence to kiters in general, but the kiting "speed records" are an anachronism that clearly emerged from the indulgent WSSRC rules (check them out), and the decisions by officials to recognise ARTIFICIAL courses as being the same as natural contexts and conditions. When you look at speed records in open water, kiters in general are slower than windsurfers which reveals that the whole recent apparent dominance of kiter "speed records" is a trick, and artifact of the artificial speed ditches. Rant over.


Congratulations Sailrocket!! I pray that these new speed records in ONE DIRECTION will put an end to the ludicrous idea that sailboats can sail on two whole separate tacks!

Seriously, glass houseboy... you sure you want to open this debate? For the record, 68 knots under wind power alone is awesome no matter the vehicle, or the venue, but it's still a 1-trick pony. Go the Hydroptere!!


Ryley,

Kind of surprised by your reaction to this amazing acomplishment. While I share your love for hydroptere and agree that their accomplishments should be held in the same light, the Sail Rocket team deserve a bit more credit then calling them a one trick pony...

They've been at this for 13? years now and I think the purpose was to see how fast a wind powered boat can go. The focus wasn't on a boat that was ocean going, or for day sailing/racing, it was simply to make it go as fast as possible. The record is written in such a way that permits this sort of craft to compete for it, so you can't fault them for taking it. The record was obviously a goal of theirs, but the main thing I think is that they wanted to go really freaking fast. If you look back through their progress over the years you'll see that the process has been scientific and the data they've collected could help sailing and foil development in a huge way.

Also, nothing against Kites, but sail rocket is actually "sailing" in my mind...

Clark Sail summed it up really well here http://clarksail.com...ket-is-special/

Cheers,

-Murph


Murph, I totally agree that this is an amazing accomplishment. The sailrocket team deserves an enormous amount of respect for what they've accomplished and nothing can take that away. I can't even imagine 68 knots in any waterborne vehicle, let alone one that is completely powered by the wind. And I sure as hell wouldn't even know where to begin to design something like that.

Perhaps I should have said "one-direction pony" instead - my objection is with the OP trying to make a distinction without a difference. Neither a board in a ditch or a boat on a shoreline fully embraces all of the dynamics of sailing. as outright speed records, they are freaking amazing, but as sailing records, they both leave something to be desired, like depth and tacking. that's my only point - ridiculing speed ditches while supporting starboard tack only seems a bit precarious.

#27 Murphness

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

Fair enough, and I totally agree on the distinction between the two venues. Whether Kiting should be recognized as a sailing record is another matter all together. I'll stop there so I don't get flamed!

Cheers!

#28 Tucky

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:27 PM

A proper rant is just that- an explosion of thought and emotion that just has to be expressed. It needs no defense or debate, especially by the ranter.

Just sayin'.




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