53 replies to this topic

[hyerstay]

Australians,

How can we use SMS elsewhere and make it the preferred sportboat system?

I am having a hard time finding contact information or measurement instructions. I would love to have even some basic preliminary ratings for one design boats here in North America. Thanks to exports to Australia, there are ratings for the Viper 640, VX One Design, Melges 24, and some others. How do we get at least brochure ratings for the Melges 20, Open 5.70, Open 5.00, J/70, etc.?

Thanks!

jason

[Sandgroper Yachting]

You need to contact the rating office at Yachting Victoria, they handle everything SMS & AMS related.
http://www.clubmarin...ps/22141/41822/

[steveromagnino]

Viper 640, VX One Design, Melges 24, and some others. How do we get at least brochure ratings for the Melges 20, Open 5.70, Open 5.00, J/70, etc.?

These are the one design boats that I think exist in USA somewhere with SMS ratings; some of the boats you name don't exist in Australia and so haven't been rated there, the measurers may be happy to support you to get other designs rated; we have found them exceptionally helpful up here in Thailand and the rule WORKS; the gaps you see below between these boats and others have been observed to be fairly close to true over a range of conditions at least to date.

You are welcome to PM me and I can share with you the guys I deal with over there, they are good blokes (even though they are Aussies)*
Viper 640 0.778
Melges 24 0.810
VX 01 0.772
Shaw 650 ~0.822 (some difference in sail plans)
T750 ~0.866 (some difference in sail plans)
Elliot 7 ~0.781 (some difference in sail plans)
SB3/SB20 0.754

The good thing is it brings everyone onto a single measurement platform. The more data points, the more the rule can be refined. http://www.asba.org....ings/index.html

There was a M20 rated at some point in the past, I am struggling to recall but believe it was around the SB3 or thereabouts back then (something close to the lower limit which is 0.755 or so). There has also been an i550 rated at some point as well, again from recollection I think it was right around that cut off point also, however ratings move from year to year (like IRC) so past data is not the same as current.

* It is written into every New Zealand passport, never pass up the chance to insult an Australian, I believe their passport has a similar vice versa requirement

[Dawg_House]

Back a few years TTB posted that the i550 was not rated under SMS, but had an official CBH of 0.800. Is there a cross reference or conversion formula?

[facthunt]

great oppertunity to get some intergallactic sb racing if some other countries can run with sms.

[Heriberto]

How does scoring work? TOT? Elapsed time * rating = corrected time?

[TD Floater]

M20 sailed Sydney Harbour Regatta 0.742

[Kevin Farrar]

Is the formula secret similar to IRC? I skimmed through the "measurements" on the website and found a reference to trial measurement numbers but didn't see the "rule". This rule may be something we may want to adopted here in the states. PHRF is anything but sportboat friendly.
Kevin

[Thigh high]

From my understanding it's easy for the race committee because it's already in the Sailwave software. I would be so bold to suggest AMS as a PHRF replacement for the non sporties to use as well.

[oregami]

Formula is secret.
Elapsed time * rating = corrected time

[rantifarian]

Back a few years TTB posted that the i550 was not rated under SMS, but had an official CBH of 0.800. Is there a cross reference or conversion formula?

There isn't really a straight conversion, but as a rough guesttimate you could use CBH/1.1 = SMS. It works for the melges 24 and T7, but doesn't for the elliot 7 (1.075), which are the only boats I have in my local list with both numbers.

[Frank]

You have to remember was designed to rate the boats the Australian sports boat association (ASBA) defines as a sports boat. It is owned and run by a 3rd party (yachting Victoria) YV refine the rule every year, based on results from Australian regatta's. You america's will run into an issue as lots of your boats would not be defined as sportsboat in OZ, Boats like the viper which are on the quicker end in the US are on the slower end in Oz. The front of fleet boats are around 10 or more mins an hour quicker than a Shaw 650 which sort of shows the range of boats the rule is designed for.
Maybe I am wrong

[Turkey Slapper]

The ASBA website has the rules it runs by, and as such all the boats are SMS'd and fit these rules as well, in an attempt to keep the racing close and fair! While some of the boats at the extreem both ends of the length limits are proving a little out in some race results, we have found most boats within the 650 to 750 size range the racing is real close! Yachting Victoria is supposedely working on making the playing field closer each year.

An i550 had an SMS a couple of years back at geelong, and it was left a little wanting, saying that, a few other boats in Aus have SMS numbers that dont fit the ASBA mould, ultimate 30, vx etc. Might work well in US within your asso fleet, but isnt there a better rule over there that sportboats can get rated under?

[hyerstay]

Portsmouth might be worth a try. PHRF is only as good as the local PHRF board being responsive to change, and the ratings of boats varies by region and the average wind speed in the region. I really like the idea of a measurement rule, which I believe SMS is.

Thanks for the info and please keep it coming! Maybe we can have someone do some measuring at Charleston Race week, which will be full of sporties.

Cheers,

jason

[TeamGladiator]

The [url="http://www.asba.org....au/index.html"] Might work well in US within your asso fleet, but isnt there a better rule over there that sportboats can get rated under?

Uhhhh... No!?!

PHRF is one option. Highly political and controlled by people who think an Olson 40 is a "sport boat"! Not likely a viable option.
Portsmouth could work. Fine for dinghies and would probably work if needed.
IRC/ORC/ORR is the only other game; not exactly sport boat friendly.

[Turkey Slapper]

That Portsmouth one sounds like it work on a lot of the boats over here being dinghy like with big shutes and light overall weight!

[Rawhide]

M20 sailed Sydney Harbour Regatta 0.742

Rated slower than an SB3? Surely something wrong there.

[GybeSet®]

lineal dimensions smaller.
they are using a tape measure not a speed data ! In any case i don't think theres much/any difference ?????

[GybeSet®]

How does scoring work? TOT? Elapsed time * rating = corrected time?

ET*rating so TOT

[Speng]

That Portsmouth one sounds like it work on a lot of the boats over here being dinghy like with big shutes and light overall weight!

Portsmouth is the way to go. If you have a bunch of old racing results for boats you can punch them into Sailwave and see how things work. If you have race wind speeds you can even figure out wind speed dependent ratings.

[GybeSet®]

for dinghies in the UK yes, even dinghies in other countries should use UK imo

SMS of course is a RATING system used with sportsboats spanning 5 countries and 3 continents already

[tur102]

We race under SMS at Istanbul / Turkey, All the sailors and the owners are happy with that system, We raced around buoys ( 12/15 ) and geographic route (3/15 ) at 2012 season. Our buoy races have 2 beatings, 2 reachings and a running, start and fhinish line at midle of the beating. you can check our facebook page for photos and results which is https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/293169830713610/
SportBoatsIstanbul_Turkey.

[hyerstay]

Excellent!

[hyerstay]

tur102, can you link to some of your results?

Thanks!

[tur102]

tur102, can you link to some of your results?

Thanks!

sorry there are no links but you can find the results charts at our facebook page, scroll down please,
you can find some video of last race too.
here the trofee results : https://excel.office... SMS TROFE.xlsx

[Mexican]

We race under SMS at Istanbul / Turkey, All the sailors and the owners are happy with that system, We raced around buoys ( 12/15 ) and geographic route (3/15 ) at 2012 season. Our buoy races have 2 beatings, 2 reachings and a running, start and fhinish line at midle of the beating. you can check our facebook page for photos and results which is https://www.facebook...93169830713610/
SportBoatsIstanbul_Turkey.

... until morale improves.

Mex

[tur102]

Our SMS race season will start at 31st of March 2013.
I will share pictures and results.
Are there any other comments for SMS ?

[hyerstay]

Reviving this thread.

 

 

Data from SMS to put boats in order that we see in North America:

 

0.832 Shaw 650

0.820 Shaw 650

0.804 Melges 24

0.810 Melges 24 OD

0.785 J/80

0.778 Viper 640 (a couple at at 0.777 why?)

0.772 VX One

0.736 J/70

 

I'd swear I saw a Melges 20 SMS rating the last time I looked. I am surprised to see the J/80 as faster than the Viper 640. Am I missing something?

[Turkey Slapper]

Reviving this thread.
 
 


Data from SMS to put boats in order that we see in North America:
 
0.832 Shaw 650
0.820 Shaw 650
0.804 Melges 24
0.810 Melges 24 OD
0.785 J/80
0.778 Viper 640 (a couple at at 0.777 why?)
0.772 VX One
0.736 J/70
 
I'd swear I saw a Melges 20 SMS rating the last time I looked. I am surprised to see the J/80 as faster than the Viper 640. Am I missing something?

Its the light boat (viper in this case) compared to heavy boat bias at the moment where the system needs work, from what we have seen in results over here the viper will shit on a jboat around the track! Being a yacht derived system it dosnt pick the fact these light boats plane so much earlier downwind which can blow results out a bit, hence why they are trialing 2 divisions based on displacement ratios at the bigger regattas in Aus at the moment!

[hyerstay]

Please let us know how things evolve. You guys are the veterans of mixed sportboat fleets!

 

Thanks,

 

jason

[GybeSet®]

take with a grain of salt

the current champions bulb/fin alone weighs nearly as much as two Vipers

the relationship between the ballasted skiffs and the cabin type boats is very finely tuned now, if you twist the knob just a little either can still win

[hyerstay]

Does anyone have a record or link for the Melges 20 SMS rating, even if it was provisional?

 

A buddy of mine is compiling a nice document of rating stuff to help us out.

 

Thanks,

 

jason

[GybeSet®]

it's rolled off 'the List' but was there in 2011-12

google will have archived copies especially for Sydney Harbour Regatta & Geelong race week where it competed.

It was unbelievably low, well beneath the Aussie cutoff, due to small sails due to 'limited' hiking RM. maybe around .744 (afai recall)

[GybeSet®]

racetrack empiral data

Jason
the Racetrach 'rating' is NOT the boats handicap - its a third party analysis (but a good one) that gives a performance factor based on the boats history.

http://asba.racetrac....php?boatid=663

[GybeSet®]

http://www.topyacht....e-c/06RGrp7.htm

last time it raced 'rated'

it's .742

note there has been one SMS retune since then but it will be close to that and its the lastest for the M20

[hyerstay]

Thank you! More data for the big spreadsheet. Now I am just iching to get back on the water with our little fleet here.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

[tur102]

We measured and certificared 14 different, Total 29 Boats for SMS at Istanbul, Turkey.

The boats are GP 26 / Farr 25s / Melges 24 / Speed Feet 18 / B.First 7,5s / Reflex 28 / J 80s / Delphia 24s / Bavaria B-One / Platu 25s / SB3 / Skippi 6,5 R / Colgate 26 / Gorbon 7.

Would like to share different type of boat's SMS ratings / LOA / weight / sail areas.

[GybeSet®]

29 !

 

Worlds coming up soon !

[hyerstay]

We measured and certificared 14 different, Total 29 Boats for SMS at Istanbul, Turkey.

The boats are GP 26 / Farr 25s / Melges 24 / Speed Feet 18 / B.First 7,5s / Reflex 28 / J 80s / Delphia 24s / Bavaria B-One / Platu 25s / SB3 / Skippi 6,5 R / Colgate 26 / Gorbon 7.

Would like to share different type of boat's SMS ratings / LOA / weight / sail areas.

 

Excellent work! Can you share your data in this thread or thru Google Docs or something?

 

Thanks!

 

jason

[tur102]

Hi Jason,

here the link, you can find the boats with LOA-Weight-Each sail areas - and SMS Ratings

We weighted almost all the boats ( except several Platus ) ( SMS conditions including ancor and chain with ropes , safety equipments PFDs, all sheets, outboard engines ) and measured sails, the sail areas calculated on IRC formula.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

[¥؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ]

http://www.topyacht....e-c/06RGrp7.htm

last time it raced 'rated'

it's .742

note there has been one SMS retune since then but it will be close to that and its the lastest for the M20

 Check the windspeed in that link.

 

 

 or see below

 

 Sports boat results -Sydney Harbour regatta.PNG   56.71K   41 downloads

[GybeSet®]

lol

 

lucky that has no connection to the TCF then, which is based on the physical boat ! 

[hyerstay]

Replying from here: http://forums.sailin...41581&p=4154254

 

 

 

http://www.asba.org.au/

http://www.clubmarin...ngs/22141/41822

 

Do you guys have enough "Sportboats" to have your own fleet?

 

Surely you get annoyed at with the arbitrary nature of PHRF?

 

We are also going to try scoring our season under SMS as well as PHRF. I have another thread going to try to find SMS ratings for these boats (most of which we have). North America needs someone to become an SMS measurer to help us with some of the sportboats that haven't gotten ratings in Australia and NZ.

 

jason

Do a deal With SMS/AMS rating office that you can provide your own measurements and allow sailmaker sail data. I know this is perfect but it is a start and you will find one guy in each fleet will know more than the rest and probably put his hand up to be the "Local" measurer.

 

Or use the Local IRC, PHRF, ISAF, whatever measurer..

 

Allow sistership data for say, the first season, but after a fleet is established all buts must have endorsed certificates.

 

Hi MSA,

 

There is no IRC locally, and PHRF doesn't measure. So we don't have a measurer at the moment, although there are some folks who did measuring for old rating systems that were around before. I think I remember my father telling me about doing measurements back in the seventies. I also wouldn't want another rating group administering SMS for us. They have their own systems to worry about.

 

I think most of the sportboats we are exposed to here in North America are one design, and it would take us 95% of the way to have up-to-date measurements and ratings for all of those. i550s and GP26s would need measurement, but I don't think there a bunch of other custom boats showing up the way you guys see them down in AUS and NZL.

 

I haven't had time to reach out personally to the SMS/AMS rating office. I'm hoping I can get someone else to do that part since my schedule is rather packed at the moment.

 

A few of the remaining OD boats that could use an SMS rating would be the Open 5.70, the Open 5.00 (kind of an outlier by AUS standards, but there is one here), the Rocket 22, and the Ultimate 20. And there still seems to be some questions around the Audi Melges 20 rating, if I am reading this thread correctly.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

[tur102]

Hi Jason,

That is easy to measure the boats and sails under SMS,

Just weighing the boats could be a problem, you would need ( easy way ) single point weihing device and a crane. Mostly same model boats are not same on weight. 

No need overhangs,  but we see that all sails need to measure including OD sails.

Since Sep of 2011 we are so happy with SMS,

 

 

 

 

 

Replying from here: http://forums.sailin...41581&p=4154254

 

 

 

 

http://www.asba.org.au/

http://www.clubmarin...ngs/22141/41822

 

Do you guys have enough "Sportboats" to have your own fleet?

 

Surely you get annoyed at with the arbitrary nature of PHRF?

 

We are also going to try scoring our season under SMS as well as PHRF. I have another thread going to try to find SMS ratings for these boats (most of which we have). North America needs someone to become an SMS measurer to help us with some of the sportboats that haven't gotten ratings in Australia and NZ.

 

jason

Do a deal With SMS/AMS rating office that you can provide your own measurements and allow sailmaker sail data. I know this is perfect but it is a start and you will find one guy in each fleet will know more than the rest and probably put his hand up to be the "Local" measurer.

 

Or use the Local IRC, PHRF, ISAF, whatever measurer..

 

Allow sistership data for say, the first season, but after a fleet is established all buts must have endorsed certificates.

[GybeSet®]

I haven't had time to reach out personally to the SMS/AMS rating office. I'm hoping I can get someone else to do that part since my schedule is rather packed at the moment.

cos most of your boats will have class ratings, that will be the easy part

less time than you've spent here of on the spreadsheet

get onto it man you may start mixed sportsboat racing across the country

[tur102]

We will race under SMS next Sunday at Istanbul,

Still excited, hope will be more than 15 boats at the starting line, looks windy day.

Sukru /

[hyerstay]

Would someone be willing to give us a temporary guestimate SMS rating for the Open 5.00? Our sportboat series starts tonight, and I want the scorer to be able to try out SMS along side our normal PHRF scoring. I want to at least be able to put in a number (which we can correct before the end of the season) for the Open 5.00 that might be at least close. We have sistership ratings for the rest of the boats (Viper 640, Melges 20, J/70, VX One).

 

Here is the Open 5.00:

 

http://www.opensaili.../Boats/Open500/

http://www.phileasbo...ication_500.php

 

In our LC PHRF it rates 165.

 

Thanks!

 

jason

[GybeSet®]

0.735

 

race and immediately adjust, observe the boat closely to see if the crew is affecting the elapsed time, rather than just the boat. 

 

The number must reflect the dimensions of the boat/rig, not making allowances for numpties

 

measure the bloody thing and send off the numbers to YV. 

If you are piggy-backing off SMS do it properly

[hyerstay]

Thank you! They didn't come out to race last night and haven't shown up on the trailer. When they do, I'll see what I can do to get them measured.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

[Jerryd]

So Jason, what were the results last night?

[hyerstay]

I'm still waiting for the results to be posted. I briefed our scorer on SMS, but we'll see if he has had a chance to try that out in Sailwave (our scoring software of choice). I will post the links when they come up.

 

We had pretty light wind and some rain. The Vipers, J/70s, and VX One all had fairly close upwind speeds, and everyone was just trying to sail deep downwind, so the speeds weren't that different there either. In bigger breeze, I think the planing speeds will start affecting things. Last night it was all about playing the shifts.

 

I have got to say that after three years racing against keelboats and maybe just one other sportboat, it has been so great having our little sportboat fleet. The J/70s were really battling each other closely and the Vipers were doing a little speed tuning, although we picked different sides almost every race, and the VX kept getting faster as they got their groove down. Sharing a course with the Etchells worked perfectly and I don't think we ever cut through each other's fleet at all over three races, starting five minutes apart.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

[hyerstay]

Our scorer is new this year, but he is doing great learning Sailwave and was happy to give us results in both PHRF and SMS! Here was our first three race day. I only just now sent him the temp. rating for the Open 5.00 that GS came up with, so it isn't in there yet, which doesn't matter since they didn't race. Don't read too much into these results. New boats, new teams, flukey weather.

 

http://lcyc.info/fil...3_SB1_PHRF.html

http://lcyc.info/fil...13_SB1_SMS.html

 

Cheers,

 

jason

[GybeSet®]

Looks like you have good mixed class trailable fleet racing, great work!

[set321go]

PY only really works if you have enough race results, its good for dinghies because they are generally quite restricted/unmodified and there are lots. Makes it easier to build up a large history about a class. SB/Cruisers unless sailing OD are all different, even the same class boats will have different sail plans and rig setup making PY almost as bad as PHRF.