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fixed carbon bowsprit


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#1 golfinaspen

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:55 PM

Interested in adding a fixed carbon bowsprit to my Ben 25 (platu). We have been flying assym's from the pole with good results, especially in light air, but a sprit would make sail handling much simplier given the tippy nature of the boat when it blows. Does anyone know who makes such custom equipment?

#2 Vela Sailing Supply

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:41 AM

Assuming that you want to keep the option of sail the boat under One Design configuration with too much hassle, I suggest to install a Forte Carbon bowsprit. They are simple and easy to install, as well as remove when you want to bring the boat back to its original layout. For a boat like the Platu 25, a 2" ID carbon sprit will do the trick. The way Forte builds this tubes oriented for use on a 50/50 ratio (supported/unsupported lengths): ie. If you want a 3 ft bowsprit from the stem to the tip, then you need a 6 ft. tube. Keep in mind that this sprit will work for an asymmetrical spinnaker not for a code zero (you need to add a bobstay for a code zero to compensate for luff rope/halyard tension).

Here are some shots of how it looks like:

Posted Image Posted Image

We carry the small kit at $1,559 including:
• Carbon sprit painted clear.
• Harken loop and outboard cap.
• Your choice of aft mount: Saddle or removable deck eye.

Feel free to email or call us if you want to talk about this and the options.

Rod

#3 golfinaspen

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:51 AM

Boat is not in OD configuration as it sails PHRF and there is no OD competition in the U.S. It uses assym chutes carried on the OD pole which greatly improves handling and reaching performance. Replacing the pole with a fixed sprit is the concept.

#4 golfinaspen

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:03 PM

Found it, GC Marine in Richmond CA made a custom fabrication for a sister ship. Check out www. gcmarine.net and the showcase tab for details. Looks like a beautiful job.


#5 sos

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:08 PM

Found it, GC Marine in Richmond CA made a custom fabrication for a sister ship. Check out www. gcmarine.net and the showcase tab for details. Looks like a beautiful job.



I've sailed that boat. Worked really well and I can't speak highly enough about Gills, great guy and dose great work

We found you can use an M24 kite quite well.

#6 Soley

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

I assume you are ready to buy new kites as well as buying the sprit as your current assyms will not work too well on the new configuration.

If melges 24 kites fit that would be very nice! Have you thought about going the retractable pole route? You could have two settings, half pole out for A3 and full pole out for A2 and A1. It maybe less expensive to retro fit the boat for that.

#7 golfinaspen

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 12:58 AM

SOS please tell me more about the performance of Black Sheep with the sprit. I seems that M24 sails would be too long on the luff. Gilles thought that a shorter sprit would well and not need a bob stay especially sice we now lead the tack line down and under the deck via a bolt hole in the forestay chain plate on the bow.

Solely, we have considered a retractable pole but the internal reinforcement of the tube would be considerable since the boat is quite skinny up front . A fixed sprit is a straightforward solution. The LIS PHRF. Committee uses a similar rating formula based on TSP/J and a sprit about 3.9 feet would allow the boat to sail at the bareboat 120 rating. I think Black Sheep has sprit about a foot longer. We will need a new runner but the existing reacher would still work.

The Platu is a giant killer in light air but when the breeze picks up it is a handful downwind so getting rid of the pole is a project worth exploring. We have also followed with Interest the development of the Donovan GP 26 as another horse for the course on Long Island Sound.

#8 garrett818

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:24 AM

One thing to keep in mind: In heavyer air a longer sprit will balance the boat better than a short one.

#9 golfinaspen

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

Garrett818 - good point, center of effort of the sailplan moves forward something that we have considered but not with precision. At the moment we are looking to get the length and new sail area into a band that does not hammer the rating the way the pole + asyms do and give us an improvement in boat handling.

Ryley - agree, no doubt the local PHRF committees look to each other for solutions to "loopholes". The interesting point is that LIS uses the same rating criteria for both fixed sprits and retractable poles so long as the chute is tacked on the centerline. PHRF LIS also has a multi-part screen for chute size so one possibility could be to tax heavily based on sail size, primilary mid-girths on runners and not so much sprit length. One would think that the handicappers have sufficient data with the J boats of various sizes but the conversions are one-offs, hence the issue. I think we are with a band of =/- 6 sec/mi and would live happily in that range if we get a boost in handling. One screwed up jibe with the pole eats up that delta very fast.

#10 golfinaspen

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:27 AM

IMG_0524_small.jpg

 

Here is picture of the GCMarine sprit for Black Sheep before it was fitted to the boat.

here is the business end.

IMG_1118_small.jpg

Still considering a similar setup but probably more of a TP52 type sprit since we need only one jack line.



#11 clamslapper

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:35 PM

Assuming that you want to keep the option of sail the boat under One Design configuration with too much hassle, I suggest to install a Forte Carbon bowsprit. They are simple and easy to install, as well as remove when you want to bring the boat back to its original layout. For a boat like the Platu 25, a 2" ID carbon sprit will do the trick. The way Forte builds this tubes oriented for use on a 50/50 ratio (supported/unsupported lengths): ie. If you want a 3 ft bowsprit from the stem to the tip, then you need a 6 ft. tube. Keep in mind that this sprit will work for an asymmetrical spinnaker not for a code zero (you need to add a bobstay for a code zero to compensate for luff rope/halyard tension).

Here are some shots of how it looks like:

image_bowsprit01.jpg image_bowsprit02.jpg

We carry the small kit at $1,559 including:
• Carbon sprit painted clear.
• Harken loop and outboard cap.
• Your choice of aft mount: Saddle or removable deck eye.

Feel free to email or call us if you want to talk about this and the options.

Rod

 

 

Makes the foredeck look pretty nasty. 



#12 Left Hook

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:19 PM

IMG_0524_small.jpg

 

Here is picture of the GCMarine sprit for Black Sheep before it was fitted to the boat.

here is the business end.

IMG_1118_small.jpg

Still considering a similar setup but probably more of a TP52 type sprit since we need only one jack line.

That is sexy as all hell...



#13 golfinaspen

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:59 PM

Here is a picture of the sprit mounted on the bow of Black Sheep, looks great.  We will build a TP52 style sprit with a single tube using a single tack line that exits the sprit and then goes  through the stem head and aft below to cam cleat mounted on the companionway ladder. This will keep the deck clean and allow the pit person to operate without shifting position.

Attached Files



#14 Christian

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:52 PM

Seriously????????????????   that is a more than average clumsy solution - and about half the length needed.  Come on you know better Rod!

Assuming that you want to keep the option of sail the boat under One Design configuration with too much hassle, I suggest to install a Forte Carbon bowsprit. They are simple and easy to install, as well as remove when you want to bring the boat back to its original layout. For a boat like the Platu 25, a 2" ID carbon sprit will do the trick. The way Forte builds this tubes oriented for use on a 50/50 ratio (supported/unsupported lengths): ie. If you want a 3 ft bowsprit from the stem to the tip, then you need a 6 ft. tube. Keep in mind that this sprit will work for an asymmetrical spinnaker not for a code zero (you need to add a bobstay for a code zero to compensate for luff rope/halyard tension).

Here are some shots of how it looks like:

image_bowsprit01.jpg image_bowsprit02.jpg

We carry the small kit at $1,559 including:
• Carbon sprit painted clear.
• Harken loop and outboard cap.
• Your choice of aft mount: Saddle or removable deck eye.

Feel free to email or call us if you want to talk about this and the options.

Rod



#15 rantifarian

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:40 AM

Seriously????????????????   that is a more than average clumsy solution - and about half the length needed.  Come on you know better Rod!

 

If OP wants to have it easily removable, cheap, etc, it isnt a terrible option. We used a similar setup alloy dick on our trailer sailer to fly the 48m^2 chicken chute when it was averaging above 25 and couldn't use the rotating pole for the bigger chutes. As he said in the note, it is designed for a 50/50 length ratio, so just buy the size you need.

What is wrong with it?



#16 Christian

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 07:30 AM

It is a honking big monstrosity built for a 35 foot cruiser - not a 25 foot almost-sportboat

 

Seriously????????????????   that is a more than average clumsy solution - and about half the length needed.  Come on you know better Rod!

 

If OP wants to have it easily removable, cheap, etc, it isnt a terrible option. We used a similar setup alloy dick on our trailer sailer to fly the 48m^2 chicken chute when it was averaging above 25 and couldn't use the rotating pole for the bigger chutes. As he said in the note, it is designed for a 50/50 length ratio, so just buy the size you need.

What is wrong with it?



#17 schoonerman

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:50 PM

I always have like this option for adding a sprit. Happens all the time on SC52's. The tip of the spin pole lives in the outer collar and simply slides out to fin in the more forward deck chock. This also doubles as the Sym Pole. Obviously you have to reinforced the crap out of the pole (should/must be carbon)



#18 Foilman

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:38 PM

IMG_0524_small.jpg

 

Here is picture of the GCMarine sprit for Black Sheep before it was fitted to the boat.

here is the business end.

Attached File  CCI_C&C115_Bowsprit_2.JPG   221.23K   46 downloads

 

A shorty we just made for a C&C 115

 

Phil



#19 golfinaspen

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 05:23 PM

We made the decision to have GC Marine build a sprit for our Platu 25, First Tracks.  The sprit will be shorter than the one they designed for Black Sheep so that we fit within a rating band on LIS for fisprits.  It will be 3.33' so that TPS = 11.9.  This should result in no change for the distance rating ( 114) but improve the W/L by 6 sec/mi to 120.

 

The design will closer to a TP 52 style with a G10 plug at the outer end for the jackline to exit. Since the boat used asymmetrical chutes off the pole and the jackline ran under the deck, this configuration will match well. Attached is a picture showing the jackline entering the bow. We eliminate the pole, foreguys and afterguys that should make jibing much easier.

 

The band has been made using Black Sheep as a "mold" and fitted to our bow. See picture of the band in frame. Differences in dimensions were noted and will be  taken into account when the sprit fabricated.

 

Gilles is now in the process of  finalizing the design and construction will shortly commence.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  bow.jpg   61.68K   61 downloads


#20 golfinaspen

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 06:16 PM

The first picture shows the band after it was removed from Black Sheep.  The frame is needed to maintain stability and the geometry. It was shipped to us and fitted to the bow of our boat - picture 2. We, measured the differences in dimensions, both sides and also marked the location of the exit hole in the bow so that the tackline path can be ascertained and incorporated into the design .

 

A new VMG A1 chute has been ordered from Quantum.

Attached Files



#21 golfinaspen

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:00 PM

Attached are pictures of the sprit being laid up, vacuum bagged and the result. Reinforcement, joining to the band and finishing are the next steps. 

Attached Files



#22 SoAPieceOfStringWalksIntoABar...

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:32 AM

Did a couple fixed sprits a few years ago, here's how the bigger one went together:

https://picasaweb.go...412600420980721

#23 SoAPieceOfStringWalksIntoABar...

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:18 PM

Attached File  DSCF0776.JPG   195.23K   55 downloads

 

ugh, bad link. this one works:

https://picasaweb.go...it?noredirect=1



#24 tootall519

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:48 PM

Too short. should go 4' to 4.5' out from J is you want to go downwind.



#25 SoAPieceOfStringWalksIntoABar...

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:43 PM

so 4.7' is ok?  :rolleyes:



#26 golfinaspen

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 01:57 AM

Further progress - band and sprit have been joined - see attached images.  Next step is fitting and fairing. At the boat we will add a G10 tube inside the bow for the bobstay and splice 1/4" aramid  through the tube to fix that end of the bobstay.



#27 golfinaspen

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 01:58 AM

here are the images

Attached Files



#28 golfinaspen

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:38 AM

Sprit completed by GC Marine - see attached images. It came in at about 6 pounds and is beautifully finished. Installation is next. We will reinforce bobstay thru hole and holes for both mounting bolts with G10 tubing and fill as needed to get exact fit. New Quantum A1 is also in hand for the season. 

Attached Files



#29 golfinaspen

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:35 PM

sprit installed - initial fit was flawless and mounting was straightforward.   The proportions and contour are a perfect match to the lines of the boat. Time to go sailing.

Attached Files



#30 8:07 to New Haven

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:56 AM

Oh my god that looks amazing. I'd love to get out on that sled!

#31 Code 2

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 01:42 PM

congrats golf - looks great.



#32 golfinaspen

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 09:29 PM

My buddy Dave Irish in Harbor Springs MI sent along the attached images of his old Mumm 30 USA 2  " Surprise"  now sailing out of Marblehead as INDRA.  Among the modifications is the addition of a fixed carbon sprit.  The work was done by Kenny Harvey, Harvey Rigging in Marblehead.  The boat looks simply beautiful and lethal.

 

Our experience so far this season with the Platu 25 First Tracks is that the sprit modification is a true game changer. Handling and speed downwind is amazing 

Attached Files



#33 Savage 17

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 02:02 PM

My buddy Dave Irish in Harbor Springs MI sent along the attached images of his old Mumm 30 USA 2  " Surprise"  now sailing out of Marblehead as INDRA.  Among the modifications is the addition of a fixed carbon sprit.  The work was done by Kenny Harvey, Harvey Rigging in Marblehead.  The boat looks simply beautiful and lethal.

 

Our experience so far this season with the Platu 25 First Tracks is that the sprit modification is a true game changer. Handling and speed downwind is amazing 

I know the boat has been very successful in Marblehead especially with the 6 sec credit for the bowspirt!



#34 Graciousj100

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:58 PM

Assuming that you want to keep the option of sail the boat under One Design configuration with too much hassle, I suggest to install a Forte Carbon bowsprit. They are simple and easy to install, as well as remove when you want to bring the boat back to its original layout. For a boat like the Platu 25, a 2" ID carbon sprit will do the trick. The way Forte builds this tubes oriented for use on a 50/50 ratio (supported/unsupported lengths): ie. If you want a 3 ft bowsprit from the stem to the tip, then you need a 6 ft. tube. Keep in mind that this sprit will work for an asymmetrical spinnaker not for a code zero (you need to add a bobstay for a code zero to compensate for luff rope/halyard tension).

Here are some shots of how it looks like:

image_bowsprit01.jpg image_bowsprit02.jpg

We carry the small kit at $1,559 including:
• Carbon sprit painted clear.
• Harken loop and outboard cap.
• Your choice of aft mount: Saddle or removable deck eye.

Feel free to email or call us if you want to talk about this and the options.

Rod

Any reinforcement needed below to compensate for compression on the deck?



#35 Christian

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:02 AM

My buddy Dave Irish in Harbor Springs MI sent along the attached images of his old Mumm 30 USA 2  " Surprise"  now sailing out of Marblehead as INDRA.  Among the modifications is the addition of a fixed carbon sprit.  The work was done by Kenny Harvey, Harvey Rigging in Marblehead.  The boat looks simply beautiful and lethal.

 

Our experience so far this season with the Platu 25 First Tracks is that the sprit modification is a true game changer. Handling and speed downwind is amazing 

I know the boat has been very successful in Marblehead especially with the 6 sec credit for the bowspirt!

Yeah I saw the cert - seems like a bit of a gift - maybe a good rating bandit..............



#36 richiec

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:49 AM

The Mumm30 looks awesome. Bet it goes like hell as well! Beautiful.



#37 golfinaspen

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 08:06 PM

The PHRF handicaps for a sprit generally have rating bands that are a function of  TPS/J, so the trick is to keep the sprit length right at the limit for one of those bands.  For the Platu we remained level at 114 on the distance rating ( same as with the class over length pole) but  were given +6 on W/L  for a 120 rating same as the base rating for the boat.  The theory, which seems to be correct, is that with the sprit you cannot  sail as deeply downwind on a square run as with a pole.  The advantage is in light to moderate air when the pole would still be on the headstay.  I think the rating is about right. Also, boat handling is much, very much easier when you eliminate the guys, pole lift and pole.



#38 Savage 17

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 01:37 PM

right... but how can you get a credit for increasing you spinnaker size 30%..... which was the case with the Mumm. Yes, I understand you can't square the pole and go directly downwind, but the boat sails in Marblehead, MA which is usually light air.

 

I'm glad it is working out for your boat. Yes, bowspirt makes crew work much easier....

 

Now you just need to go masthead with your Spins!



#39 golfinaspen

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 03:43 AM

More information from INDRA - sprit was made by Jeff Kent of Composite Solutions.  North did the sail design.

 

On our Platu 25, Quantum was closely involved in the spinnaker design.  We were cautioned ( as was INDRA by North) that the sprit can be too long and the A - sail too big for the boat. In the case of the Mumm the spar was designed for masthead chutes, in our case it was not. We could have lengthened the sprit ( greater penalty) and lowered the aspect ratio of the A1 but the boat is rather tippy and Quantum's advice was to design a VMG downwind sail that the boat could easily carry with the correct flow characteristics,( i.e., not a huge bag flying off the sprit) over the useful range of the sail.

 

That proved to be solid advice - bigger is not necessarily better. 



#40 Left Hook

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 04:16 AM

Where have you been racing FT? Haven't seen y'all at Tuesdays or any weekend regattas. Saw the boat near crab shell the other day. 



#41 golfinaspen

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:05 PM

Left Hook - thanks for the note.  We knew this year would be lean due to arrival of co-skippers baby in June. Sailed the SYC Double Handed Regatta. Day sailing during the week to avoid the power boat mess at the entrance to Stamford Harbor on weekends and that's it. Tuesday nights were out given the distinct possibility of long motors home ( FT is "powered" by a 3.5 hp outboard) after races had called near Lloyd's Point several times in the past.

 

We will  move the boat to Cedar Point YC in a few weeks and sail the season out from there; that will be the new home going forward and hopefully bigger fleets are in the offing in that locale. 






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