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Pogo 3

mini structures 6.50

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#1 ctutmark

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:04 PM

Just saw a slightly cryptic post on the Structures Facebook page alluding to a Pogo3. Anyone know anything more?

http://www.facebook....2346?ref=stream

#2 Large Thomas

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:30 AM

That could be either a Pogo3 or an Mk3 of the C40? I'd wager that Structures might not really want to get back into building these small boats... but then again I might be wrong. A P3 would certainly draw a lot of interest!

#3 ctutmark

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:05 AM

Part of what got me thinking it was a mini was who some of the comments came from, a certain past CM president included

#4 Large Thomas

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:00 AM

Part of what got me thinking it was a mini was who some of the comments came from, a certain past CM president included


But as they're all left guessing just the same we might have to wait until the Salon, I suppose. It would be the logical place to announce something of that sort.

#5 Large Thomas

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:46 PM

So Andreas Lindlahr just posted on Facebook that it's indeed about the Pogo 3. Let's trust that man, he knows what he's talking about.

Oh my. :ph34r:

#6 ctutmark

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

So Andreas Lindlahr just posted on Facebook that it's indeed about the Pogo 3. Let's trust that man, he knows what he's talking about.

Oh my. :ph34r:


Plus he takes some great pics/videos.

#7 Large Thomas

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:11 PM


So Andreas Lindlahr just posted on Facebook that it's indeed about the Pogo 3. Let's trust that man, he knows what he's talking about.

Oh my. :ph34r:


Plus he takes some great pics/videos.


Sure that.

And Structures decided to tease us more: http://www.facebook....id=263630182346

#8 TheFlash

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:41 PM

Scow version?

#9 Large Thomas

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:15 PM

Scow version?


Very unlikely, after all they want to sell boats, and way too many people find the scow just dead ugly. There's good reasons why the scow never really made the jump across the Big Pond.

"This ain't no ship..."

#10 dinghydock

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:27 PM

They just posted to Facebook that it is designed by guillaume verdier who designed Macif with VPLP. Could be a very advanced series design.

#11 Large Thomas

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:10 PM

They just posted to Facebook that it is designed by guillaume verdier who designed Macif with VPLP. Could Will be a very advanced series design.


There, fixed that for you.

Will be interesting to see how close it is to the Generic (One) proto(s), and how they're performing in relation to eachother, and the concurrents. Bring it on!

#12 CharlieBurton

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 03:28 PM

https://scontent-b-l...327333187_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-l...336520039_n.jpg

 

The plugs are just being finished!



#13 BalticBandit

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 03:44 PM

interesting... very full bows, not quite Scow Bow, but...



#14 ctutmark

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:10 PM

Is just a rendering but some hints there

Attached Files



#15 r.finn

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:36 PM

Looks good.  First non transom hung rudders I've see on a series boat.  Should make outboard engines less awkward.



#16 ctutmark

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:43 PM

Ryan, noticed that too. Might help the cavitation matter but would likely be heavier and more costly. 

 

Some pics of the hull plug for those who haven't seen them on Facebook:

Attached File  557516_10151797823537347_327333187_n.jpg   39.28K   64 downloadsAttached File  1186724_10151797823532347_336520039_n.jpg   35.58K   48 downloads



#17 r.finn

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 05:07 PM

It's got to be more expensive.  



#18 LeoV

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 06:48 PM

Absolutely more expensive and more heavy.

And one thing I always disliked on a P2 was the autopilot always connected to the rudders-tiller. Think this one will have that too.

Curious who ordered this one.



#19 LeoV

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:02 PM

In a paper, le telegramme, economic section:

Le voile est levé avant même le départ de la Mini Transat, dimanche, de Douarnenez. Le chantier Structures s'apprête à lancer la construction du Pogo 3, nouveau mini de série signé Guillaume Verdier. Leader du marché, l'entreprise entend conserver son rang. Mais sans attendre les premières commandes de Pogo 3, Christian Bouroullec, le patron du chantier, se veut optimiste à la sortie du Grand pavois. Après une année de stabilisation de l'activité, 2014 annonce d'ores et déjà une nouvelle croissance. Elle va conduire Structures (50 salariés) à de nouvelles embauches.

 

So,

its a Pogo3,

its a Verdier,

Christian still the boss,

after one yr of stabilisation of orders they new see it growing again, so they will hire new people.



#20 Icedtea

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:35 PM

Not liking the rudders.  Makes things more difficult when things go wrong, and on such a small boat how much of a difference will less cavitation make?



#21 LeoV

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 08:47 PM

Cavitation is a problem, but Gutelle (French designer) had an answer. But then the blade gets thin near the surface. Just were you need a lot of strength.

I would suggest to permit carbon fiber etc for the rudders in the CM.



#22 3Hulls

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 02:36 AM

They just posted to Facebook that it is designed by guillaume verdier who designed Macif with VPLP. Could be a very advanced series design.

What's the Facebook URL?  I'd like to follow this



#23 ctutmark

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:43 AM

https://www.facebook...es/263630182346



#24 Left Hook

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:30 AM

Hullform, especially forward, bears a slight resemblance to Macif...



#25 ctutmark

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:04 PM

I wonder how many rudder failures are from hitting things versus wipeouts and trying to recover?  From 2009 it seemed most of those breakages were wipeouts. Less cavitation might mean fewer wipeouts and coupled with stronger rudders might not be a bad thing.  

 

That said, the above image is just a rendering and could have zero bearing on what the finished product looks like, similar to what played out with the D2. 



#26 Bulbhunter

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:08 PM

Great video of a Pogo 40S in some wicked conditions



#27 prime8

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:03 PM

Why do inboard rudders help with cavitation?



#28 ctutmark

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:10 PM

They a better "sealed" at the top to reduce the likelihood of a bubble of air being sucked down the foil at high angles of attack. I am sure some of the more technically minded folks will jump in with a more correct description 



#29 BalticBandit

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:22 PM

there's a whole discussion on this in the CClass multihull thread in Multihull Anarchy.  Almost all of the C-Class have gone to underhung rudders (and the A Class as well) not only because of the cavitation issues but also because of less drag  Since they are operating with an "endplate" they get less spanwise flow and thus are more effective and hence require less rudder movement for the same response and hence less drag



#30 AvidSailor

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:50 PM

That looks like a huge kite! Does anyone know the sail area figures of this boat?

#31 ctutmark

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:29 PM

Series boats use big kites in the 80 m2 range



#32 STYACHT

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 10:15 PM

First, not cavitation, but ventilation.  Cavitation is when the pressure on a submerged body is so low that the water turns to vapor.  This happens on propellers and on highly loaded foils.  Ventilation is when the low pressure side of the rudder, keel, or rudder pulls air down from the water surface.  This causes the flow to break down, at first locally, and perhaps over the entire foil.

 

Secondly, I think this rendering is not enough to judge if that will in fact be the choice on the P3.  The tiller extending aft of the transom is an indication that the boat may have conventional rudders.  It can also be that the design will involve a set of kick up rudders.  These have been used in Class 40, though they are not on the latest Verdier "Fantastica".

 

Class-40-Fantastica_TJV_2013_1-copy1.jpg



#33 ctutmark

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:51 AM

Thanks Doug for the better explanation and the correct terms.

 

Completely agree that it is just a rendering and the finished boat could be very different. Also the pics I have seen of the hull plug do not include any obvious spots in the hull bottom where rudder posts would emerge. 

 

First, not cavitation, but ventilation.  Cavitation is when the pressure on a submerged body is so low that the water turns to vapor.  This happens on propellers and on highly loaded foils.  Ventilation is when the low pressure side of the rudder, keel, or rudder pulls air down from the water surface.  This causes the flow to break down, at first locally, and perhaps over the entire foil.

 

Secondly, I think this rendering is not enough to judge if that will in fact be the choice on the P3.  The tiller extending aft of the transom is an indication that the boat may have conventional rudders.  It can also be that the design will involve a set of kick up rudders.  These have been used in Class 40, though they are not on the latest Verdier "Fantastica".

 

Class-40-Fantastica_TJV_2013_1-copy1.jpg



#34 jofraja

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:55 PM

KickUp-Rudders are not allowed for series boats. So there is - apart from the possibility to "easily" change your rudder, less weight and smaller costs - no real benefit for using transom hang rudders. But the advantage of a better efficiency is there and will bring this to the P3.

 

 

First, not cavitation, but ventilation.  Cavitation is when the pressure on a submerged body is so low that the water turns to vapor.  This happens on propellers and on highly loaded foils.  Ventilation is when the low pressure side of the rudder, keel, or rudder pulls air down from the water surface.  This causes the flow to break down, at first locally, and perhaps over the entire foil.

 

Secondly, I think this rendering is not enough to judge if that will in fact be the choice on the P3.  The tiller extending aft of the transom is an indication that the boat may have conventional rudders.  It can also be that the design will involve a set of kick up rudders.  These have been used in Class 40, though they are not on the latest Verdier "Fantastica".



#35 STYACHT

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:18 PM

KickUp-Rudders are not allowed for series boats. So there is - apart from the possibility to "easily" change your rudder, less weight and smaller costs - no real benefit for using transom hang rudders. But the advantage of a better efficiency is there and will bring this to the P3.

 

 

First, not cavitation, but ventilation.  Cavitation is when the pressure on a submerged body is so low that the water turns to vapor.  This happens on propellers and on highly loaded foils.  Ventilation is when the low pressure side of the rudder, keel, or rudder pulls air down from the water surface.  This causes the flow to break down, at first locally, and perhaps over the entire foil.

 

Secondly, I think this rendering is not enough to judge if that will in fact be the choice on the P3.  The tiller extending aft of the transom is an indication that the boat may have conventional rudders.  It can also be that the design will involve a set of kick up rudders.  These have been used in Class 40, though they are not on the latest Verdier "Fantastica".

Interesting.  Rule S-5-b-2 was not there when I did our series design in 2007.  Could be interesting to discuss what "lift up" means, or the original French for same.



#36 french do it better

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

the original french text says "relevable" which is a general term that in my opinion includes all kinds of rudders: lift-up, kick-up etc.

 

maybe you could make a rudder system with a whole blade that can be easily dismountable from the transom and you could argue that your rudder is "démontable" not "relevable" but is it worth it ?



#37 mrpelicano

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 02:32 PM

Any news on the Pogo 3?  Haven't seen or heard anything in a while and very curious as to where they are in the build process.  Thanks!



#38 BalticBandit

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 04:00 PM

Well at the Salon Nautic on the 15th, all they were showing was the foam hull model



#39 Merde2

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 11:15 AM

Article just came out in Voiles&Voiliers: http://www.voilesetv...tier-structures

Nothing new other than #1 still being built and will be tested, raced and refined on this summers circuit by Olivier Taillard.



#40 Icedtea

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 04:03 PM

Seems like they want to be very sure everything's perfect before launching. 

 

The Pogo 2 must have been a cash cow for so long, they will want to get those kind of sails for the 3- the Naciras and the like are coming on strong.



#41 Merde2

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 02:52 AM

115 Pogo 2's in 7 years of production. 2 per month as stated in the article, but in their last year of production in France they sold only 2 due in part to a saturated second hand market.They do mention that 30% of the minis built were for day sailing and coastal cruising.

 

Somewhat off topic here but did the Naciras preform well due to design or the skippers that sailed them? Seeing now that there is also the D2 and the Argo as third generation series boats and maybe a Bertrand-designed series boat too by the time the next MT comes around, competition should be stiff.



#42 jofraja

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 01:33 PM

For sure it's both - the Nacira skippers (Aymeric, Justine, Simon,...) are all much better skippers than the "average" mini skipper. But the Nacira got it's performance edge - or better say better controlability - by sacrificing low wind performance esp. in bigger waves compared to the P2. And so, there were always some P2 drivers like Renauld Mary and Ian Lipinski not far away or even in front of Justine and Simon during the last 2 years. When speaking early last year to Aymeric, he was quite "frustrated", that the performance edge he seemed to have in 2012 was gone in 2013 ... even compared to the P2 drivers ...

 

Regarding the competition - I suppose, that earliest in 2017 we'll see a P3 or the Bertrand competing for podium places in a MT. The 1st P3s will be available in summer and it's close to be impossible to get all 1000sm in races done until Paris boat show - even if Structures are flooding the market with 10 new boats in 2013. Maybe a foreigner could have a chance but I see a Nacira or RG on top if they have similar conditions like this year. For serious competitors (w/o big money behind)  it's too dangerous to rely on a new and untested boat.



#43 LeoV

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:38 PM

And I wonder how many Nacira's are build in the past, as it seems from their blogpsot that they have problems with the yard stopping building this project.



#44 jofraja

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:46 PM

The new yard is currently building No 20 . And yes - with FR Nautisme stopped operations - it was unclear, whether Nacira production will be continued but ... No 20 is sold ...

 

BR



#45 LeoV

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:36 PM

So, a new yard is building them again I understand.

Good.

 

So now in production and in demand:

Nacira (France)

DIngo2 (France)

Pogo2 (US builder)
RG650 (Argentinia)
Argos (Spain)

 

To come

Bertrand (France)
Pogo3 (France)

 

Damn, its a crowded builders scene again.
Reminds me of the day Dingo, Pogo2, Mistral, Tiptop, Zero, Supercalin 2, Ginto, Twister were active.
Only 2 of them sold more then 30 :)
 



#46 Speng

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 05:13 PM

On the rudder issue wouldn't underhangers more likely reduce the sort of problems Alex Thomson had with water generators hitting tiller crossbars? What kind of power systems are the the minis running today. What sort of power demands do they have? I know there's a lot less need for communications but  AP, nav lights, computer, VHF/AIS, instruments + what else?



#47 jofraja

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 05:20 PM

Although there are some (1 or 2) using Hydrogens, the loss of speed is not that negligible like on IMOCAs or Class40s. Power needs do depend mostly on the consumption of the AP - no computers, Sat phones etc. allowed. So the demand is also not that high ...

 

BG, Frank



#48 6times7

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 07:51 PM

i think I'm right in saying class mini require 2 sources of power, smart money seems to be on solar panel and fuel cell. Hydrogens would just add an additional complication, whereas fuel cells just get on with it - no moving parts, automated power management = 1 less thing to worry about, with no speed sacrifice. 

 

Pogo 2 rudders are a bit of a weak spot (or at least the tiller attachment point) - I think most carried a spare for the MT. However, I can't see Pogo going away from the safety/simplicity of transom hung vs underslung, even more so when the current challengers to the throne (Nacira/Argos/RG) are still on transom hung. How much of a performance benefit is it on twin rudders....vs weight of 2 through boat stocks & tiller. 



#49 Icedtea

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 09:37 PM

What are the fuel cells powered by? I was under the impression they were hydrogen

#50 ctutmark

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:20 AM

What are the fuel cells powered by? I was under the impression they were hydrogen

methanol  

http://www.efoy-comfort.com/



#51 Icedtea

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:28 AM

That is very interesting, the chemistry behind them is so simple. 

 

 

What would the price be for one of them?



#52 6times7

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 04:30 PM

http://www.fuelcells...Fuel_Cells.html   (no affiliation before anyone mentions buying an ad)

 

c. £2,500 for a mini - so not cheap, anyone any idea what a Hydrogen costs?



#53 pboe

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:41 AM

Gas bottles used for hydrogen would be way heavier than the methanol cans and you wanna keep weight low on a mini



#54 jofraja

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:33 AM

Of couse he wanted the price of a hydrogenerator ... it's about the same than the fuelcell but on a 6.5m boat the drag is not negligible ...

 

Accoding to Charly (Pogo Structures) on Duesseldorf boat show, the 1st P3 will be launched end of March or beginning of April and they will produce appx. 6 boats until summer.

 

The P3 will have transom hung rudders

 

BR, Frank - 772 -



#55 Icedtea

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:34 AM

That's the reasoning I wanted to hear. Does the whole fleet use them? It's a pretty substantial dent in the budget for a mini



#56 jofraja

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:41 AM

Most of the boats have fuelcells in combination with solar power. However, there are some (even Aymeric) who used gasoline generators during the normal season (when you are able to get around mostly with shore power and solar) ...

 

BR, Frank



#57 6times7

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:26 PM

At least one tried solar only in last years transat - didn't go so well in the early (cloudy) stages. Not sure how that gets through two power source requirements - 2 separate panels maybe??

 

Fuel cell is certainly a more expensive option up front, however you could take into account extended life of the batteries as they are kept topped up, as opposed to deeper discharge cycles when having to plug a generator (petrol or water) in. You'll probably ruin a petrol generator in two years on a mini. I haven't done the sums, but reckon costs would probably come out roughly equal for any option over a two transat campaign. Fuel cell would certainly be the most hassle free setup. I'm not sure it's that big a dent in even an average mini budget.

 

Thanks for the info on P3's Frank, as Leo said a while ago, interesting times ahead for the series boats. I reckon Pogo will be lining up some good sailors for those early boats.






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