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Aussie Multihull Nationals 2013, Airlie Beach


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#1 auscat

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

The 2013 Nationals will be held at Airlie Race Week from the 8th to 15th August.
At the moment we are gathering as much infomation and feed back to try and make this an outstanding event.We will get a notice of race out early in the new year once we have a better handle on what people want.

We may be a long way north but there is lots to see once you get here so start planning now and make the trip worth while.This year we had some Sth Aussies rock up early and head out to the reef for a few days and Plywood boy and his merry band of Grey Nomads had a great week cruising (or was that boozing) the islands.
Saturday 17th is fun race and well worth staying for with some "outstanding" figure head action.Not quite sure of the dates for Magnetic Island Race Week but it is usually a week or so after Airlie and another beautiful and layed back event.

Team Vodafone reckons they will be back and that alone is a great reason come.Pinhead has bought a new boat from a couple of dodgy Victorians and Hardon is busy getting something together to have a go as well.
Hopefully all the usual suspects from past years will return and the party will continue.

As usual if we can do anything to help you out don't hesitate to give me or Shane a call,cheers Chippy.

#2 Smooth Cruiser

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

Good stuff - save a spot in the beer tent for me.

#3 Fuller

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:44 AM

The 2013 Nationals will be held at Airlie Race Week from the 8th to 15th August.
At the moment we are gathering as much infomation and feed back to try and make this an outstanding event.We will get a notice of race out early in the new year once we have a better handle on what people want.

We may be a long way north but there is lots to see once you get here so start planning now and make the trip worth while.This year we had some Sth Aussies rock up early and head out to the reef for a few days and Plywood boy and his merry band of Grey Nomads had a great week cruising (or was that boozing) the islands.
Saturday 17th is fun race and well worth staying for with some "outstanding" figure head action.Not quite sure of the dates for Magnetic Island Race Week but it is usually a week or so after Airlie and another beautiful and layed back event.

Team Vodafone reckons they will be back and that alone is a great reason come.Pinhead has bought a new boat from a couple of dodgy Victorians and Hardon is busy getting something together to have a go as well.
Hopefully all the usual suspects from past years will return and the party will continue.

As usual if we can do anything to help you out don't hesitate to give me or Shane a call,cheers Chippy.

Bare Essentials will definitely be there. Hopefully looking a little happier than she is now.

#4 Robnacra

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:10 AM

I'll be there even if I have to drift around the course in 2 dinghys taped together

#5 Cutter

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:40 AM

Locked in..... with Move It....

#6 Frassld

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:44 AM

Sounds great.
Do you plan to run it as a "National Trailable Multihull Championship" as per perpetual trophys, with 4 divisions like Wangi and RQYS have done over the last 3 Nationals. Putting the non trailable's in there own division. Or would it be 1 division like ABRW this year.

#7 trispirit

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:39 AM

Awesome see you there!

#8 auscat

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:53 AM

Sounds great.
Do you plan to run it as a "National Trailable Multihull Championship" as per perpetual trophys, with 4 divisions like Wangi and RQYS have done over the last 3 Nationals. Putting the non trailable's in there own division. Or would it be 1 division like ABRW this year.


Good question.My personal feeling is that "trailable" should be left out and the title of National champion should be inclusive.As Phil Day said in the other thread he didn't take his boat to Wangi because he would be relegated to cruising division.Not sure how Vodafone would feel about that.I'd like to see the usual split between div1&2 and a PHS division to give as many people as possible a chance to compete for the national title.I'm sure if people have their hearts set on a "trailable" title they can be weeded from the overall results.

As I said in the OP we want to hear what people want, so we can make some informed descisions on where to go with this event,thanks for the input.

#9 dave202

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:20 AM

What are the minimum requirements for an event like this? For example could a homebuilt 7m daysailer tri with no in hull accomodation compete? Obviously safety gear would need to be carried but are there any other minimum requirements? Same question for an OMR certificate?

Cheers Dave

#10 Peter Hackett

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:25 AM

The caravan is ready but hopefully something newer and easier to tow will contain the gay greys from brisvegas up to the nicest waters in the world.
Congrats to you guys on getting the regatta and in the absence of a proper national association (which none of us have time to run) I think cyberworld could go well with all the pre-discussions based here. We should call this place "wetbook". Ar ar!

Serious stuff that needs your/our attention:
1. The divisions we wrestled with for years but most of us favour including the big shitters in the racing with divisions to sort it out. You WILL get a big fleet with fun factor plus competition factor plus paradise factor, plus the F22 factor, start with 40 boats at least. Anyway, we reckon that the trailable/nontrailable discrimination rule is shite as it used to demand a boat should be able to be assembled and rigged without a crane etc. Well some could but just wouldn't on the day of the series because the crane was busy , and then whispers would spoil it all. Boats on the edge of trailable like the MTB 920 and Voodoo should be included.But the bigger bare cats? So instead of getting into the arguing, we elected to open the doors to get as many on the start as possible. Then, related to item 2, I believe we did the best thing with ratings basically determining div 1 for rockets (ORMA, Trilogy, Bare, Malice, APC MAx), div 2 for production tris F-everything, Grainger, and some similar cats, and div 3 for larger ocean and accommodation type boats, Renaissance, Rhythmic, Kestrel, and I believe Jouvert and Mojo/ Chill Pill could jump in there. This is just for the gold, and the starts might still be just 2 or even one start so that the bragging rights are there if you have a superday.
2. The rule. While far from perfect it is the best we have and needs a final tuneup before your event. The rule introduced for Bris nationals arguably did a better job at leaving the crew weight garbage out of the equation. The BrisRule had hundreds of hours of testing applied and was thrown away. The OldRule is back in for a year now and from what mates have told me, created some brisk discussions at Wangi. Either of these are still not perfect, especially in comparing boats that are nothing like each other, and especially on the longer courses like we get at Airlie. Both rules still favour the big ocean boats on the long races, so to get the bread and butter F-guys there, they will need to know that there are 3 divisions like at Bris to keep fair and discrete fleets racing. Back to point 1 !!!

A bit of rambling but excited thoughts collected here after my Friday night 3 basic food groups dinner (beer wine and now rum), so I share a little grey with you. First shot shows how cunning the Frassld crew were to barge us into Hill Inlet (an anchorage better than __). They blocked our exit and forced us to cook a chook that night on the beach for them after we swapped some of our remaining alcohol for some of their remaining petrol. By the end of that week, all (consumable) fluids were exchangeable.

Other shot is not long after the start when we unplugged the power in the caravan to make an attack on a few of the supposedly quick boats in front. Bloody Kiwis.

Anything you want Shaneo and Chipster, I can pick it up at Clairview on the way up, we found some friends with a couple of teeth this year who should remember us.

PS work sux.

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#11 auscat

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:54 AM

Cheers mate,we've talked about the little boats and big courses and will try and address that with slightly shorter and more inshore courses.Looks like a day of windward lewards in there as well.
Wow day one of the quest and already a heap of input.
We have Shane on the Sailing comittee this year so things should go a bit smoother on our end and make changes and improvments easier to implement.
Its created quite a bit of excitement up here,shit even Jonny Cad is looking for a boat,be afraid ;)

Edit; reread your post ply boy and re the bread and butter mid fleet mob reckon a couple of short sprint races and keeping them inshore should some what cancel out the big boat advantage.The higher rating mob should be on the longer courses but the W/L stuff will bring boat handling right to the for front.Don't think 2 days of W/L would be fair on the really big guys though,used to be a killer on Cyno.

#12 Red Dolphin

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:04 PM

Cheers mate,we've talked about the little boats and big courses and will try and address that with slightly shorter and more inshore courses.Looks like a day of windward lewards in there as well.
Wow day one of the quest and already a heap of input.
We have Shane on the Sailing comittee this year so things should go a bit smoother on our end and make changes and improvments easier to implement.
Its created quite a bit of excitement up here,shit even Jonny Cad is looking for a boat,be afraid ;)

Edit; reread your post ply boy and re the bread and butter mid fleet mob reckon a couple of short sprint races and keeping them inshore should some what cancel out the big boat advantage.The higher rating mob should be on the longer courses but the W/L stuff will bring boat handling right to the for front.Don't think 2 days of W/L would be fair on the really big guys though,used to be a killer on Cyno.

One division is the go IMO. All in brawl is way more fun. Breaking the fleet up into questionable divisions is lame.

#13 Try Flying

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:43 AM

With the kind of wide variety multi fleet the nats attacts you are going to need divisions otherwise a course set for the like of Vodafone will have half the fleet DNF or conversly a cours set for me and my TT720 will have the boys on the faster boats getting very dizzy.

My $0.02 worth from the slower end of the fleet ... I love the courses that had the fast boys going off to far flung turning marks only to blast through our fleet each lap made for an inclusive feeling and we get to see the big boys at their best. Just please dont do stb roundings at a shared mark for us and port for the other div.... very scary collision courses (happened only in one race once upon a time but not something to be repeated.)

Number one gripe about divisions... idiots thinking that just because they are in another division that the rules of the road don't apply to them when crossing someone out side their division.

#14 Frassld

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:49 AM

If you split divisions only on ratings, perhaps you could introduce some more perpetual trophys so you have Division overall, Div fixed multihull, Division trailerable and there is already a class trophy for I think Corsair 750 Sprint's and Dash's and hopefully we might need one for F 22's if Plywood Boy and Mr F have a few here in time to play with Sknot! Normaly I think you need 5 the same for a class within a division? Maybe this is all to complicated and we should just come up and have a great sail, and think about leaving our boats for Magnetic Island Race Week.

Aucat; We certainly enjoyed the long courses getting a good look around the Whitsundays!

#15 Red Dolphin

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:09 AM

With the kind of wide variety multi fleet the nats attacts you are going to need divisions otherwise a course set for the like of Vodafone will have half the fleet DNF or conversly a cours set for me and my TT720 will have the boys on the faster boats getting very dizzy.

My $0.02 worth from the slower end of the fleet ... I love the courses that had the fast boys going off to far flung turning marks only to blast through our fleet each lap made for an inclusive feeling and we get to see the big boys at their best. Just please dont do stb roundings at a shared mark for us and port for the other div.... very scary collision courses (happened only in one race once upon a time but not something to be repeated.)

Number one gripe about divisions... idiots thinking that just because they are in another division that the rules of the road don't apply to them when crossing someone out side their division.


Cant see your point. How can sailing a different course to what you refer to as the fast boats be seen as inclusive? Vodaphone did not cause any DNFs at airlie this year to my knowledge. I think its really cool to see the dashs, sprints and F22s on the same start line as the awesomely big and fast Vodaphone.

Multihull sailors are often seen as outsiders in the sailing community, fragmenting the fleet into silly divisions will not help. IMO OMR works great, it means multis of all sizes can compete together and race on the same course. A strong and inclusive multihull group would be one where every boat starts on the same line and does the same course. That I think is something that people (eg.mono sailors) looking in from the outside will think is cool and maybe a tool we can use to grow interest in racing multihulls.

#16 auscat

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:58 AM

What are the minimum requirements for an event like this? For example could a homebuilt 7m daysailer tri with no in hull accomodation compete? Obviously safety gear would need to be carried but are there any other minimum requirements? Same question for an OMR certificate?

Cheers Dave


As I understand the rule any boat can be measured and given a rating.Cat 5 is the safety rating for Airlie.As long as you meet Cat 5 you can play,that is why the PHS division is there.

#17 Fuller

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:46 AM


Sounds great.
Do you plan to run it as a "National Trailable Multihull Championship" as per perpetual trophys, with 4 divisions like Wangi and RQYS have done over the last 3 Nationals. Putting the non trailable's in there own division. Or would it be 1 division like ABRW this year.


Good question.My personal feeling is that "trailable" should be left out and the title of National champion should be inclusive.As Phil Day said in the other thread he didn't take his boat to Wangi because he would be relegated to cruising division.Not sure how Vodafone would feel about that.I'd like to see the usual split between div1&2 and a PHS division to give as many people as possible a chance to compete for the national title.I'm sure if people have their hearts set on a "trailable" title they can be weeded from the overall results.

As I said in the OP we want to hear what people want, so we can make some informed descisions on where to go with this event,thanks for the input.

I reckon there should be 3 or 4 division depending on the yachts OMR. The splits this year seemed OK to me. We need to mix the races up to suit the larger and smaller boats. 2 days of windward leewards mixed in with some Airlie passage races would be ideal.

#18 honestjohn

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:32 PM


With the kind of wide variety multi fleet the nats attacts you are going to need divisions otherwise a course set for the like of Vodafone will have half the fleet DNF or conversly a cours set for me and my TT720 will have the boys on the faster boats getting very dizzy.

My $0.02 worth from the slower end of the fleet ... I love the courses that had the fast boys going off to far flung turning marks only to blast through our fleet each lap made for an inclusive feeling and we get to see the big boys at their best. Just please dont do stb roundings at a shared mark for us and port for the other div.... very scary collision courses (happened only in one race once upon a time but not something to be repeated.)

Number one gripe about divisions... idiots thinking that just because they are in another division that the rules of the road don't apply to them when crossing someone out side their division.


Cant see your point. How can sailing a different course to what you refer to as the fast boats be seen as inclusive? Vodaphone did not cause any DNFs at airlie this year to my knowledge. I think its really cool to see the dashs, sprints and F22s on the same start line as the awesomely big and fast Vodaphone.

Multihull sailors are often seen as outsiders in the sailing community, fragmenting the fleet into silly divisions will not help. IMO OMR works great, it means multis of all sizes can compete together and race on the same course. A strong and inclusive multihull group would be one where every boat starts on the same line and does the same course. That I think is something that people (eg.mono sailors) looking in from the outside will think is cool and maybe a tool we can use to grow interest in racing multihulls.



what cant you see?, there are wildly different sizes and speeds within the fleet, check the results from wangi last week, div 3 average around 7 knots around the course on a windy day(20kts), the big boats do that before the sails go up!, there was a c24 and a f25 in div3, finishing half an hour at least ahead of the tramps, windrush 600's, tt680. mad max, malice etc would have a lap in the bag before we hit the 1st mark. thats apart from the start line issues with such widly differing speeds. yes i know ratings etc take care of it but it aint a race if you cant see the opposition(unless of course your way out in front!).

#19 offtherails

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:19 PM

Not to mention the fact that big tides around Airlie with strong tidal flows can mean quite different conditions for fast and slow boats, particularly on longer races.

#20 Red Dolphin

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:28 PM



With the kind of wide variety multi fleet the nats attacts you are going to need divisions otherwise a course set for the like of Vodafone will have half the fleet DNF or conversly a cours set for me and my TT720 will have the boys on the faster boats getting very dizzy.

My $0.02 worth from the slower end of the fleet ... I love the courses that had the fast boys going off to far flung turning marks only to blast through our fleet each lap made for an inclusive feeling and we get to see the big boys at their best. Just please dont do stb roundings at a shared mark for us and port for the other div.... very scary collision courses (happened only in one race once upon a time but not something to be repeated.)

Number one gripe about divisions... idiots thinking that just because they are in another division that the rules of the road don't apply to them when crossing someone out side their division.


Cant see your point. How can sailing a different course to what you refer to as the fast boats be seen as inclusive? Vodaphone did not cause any DNFs at airlie this year to my knowledge. I think its really cool to see the dashs, sprints and F22s on the same start line as the awesomely big and fast Vodaphone.

Multihull sailors are often seen as outsiders in the sailing community, fragmenting the fleet into silly divisions will not help. IMO OMR works great, it means multis of all sizes can compete together and race on the same course. A strong and inclusive multihull group would be one where every boat starts on the same line and does the same course. That I think is something that people (eg.mono sailors) looking in from the outside will think is cool and maybe a tool we can use to grow interest in racing multihulls.



what cant you see?, there are wildly different sizes and speeds within the fleet, check the results from wangi last week, div 3 average around 7 knots around the course on a windy day(20kts), the big boats do that before the sails go up!, there was a c24 and a f25 in div3, finishing half an hour at least ahead of the tramps, windrush 600's, tt680. mad max, malice etc would have a lap in the bag before we hit the 1st mark. thats apart from the start line issues with such widly differing speeds. yes i know ratings etc take care of it but it aint a race if you cant see the opposition(unless of course your way out in front!).


So what if the faster boats have a lap in the bag? So what if you cant phisically race them? This is the nature of handicap racing my friend, like it or not thats the way it is. That doesnt mean that you wont be rewarded if you sail well. If we followed your theory that long passage races suit the big boats then Vodaphone would have won every race a Airlie. It didn't so you have to admit that you don't know what you are talking about. If you want shorter courses sail in PHS.

You split the fleet into 3 or 4 fleets you end up with separte divisions of 5 boats or less. Do you expect the organisers to produce different result sheets and provide prizes for a division of 5 boats??

Maybe you should sail a Hobie 16 or a laser if you cant handle the way OMR works.

#21 Try Flying

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

Now now, play nice! The point is a 30nm passage race such as the full lap of lake Macquarie can be done easily by a faster boat (record in the HCW is under 3 hours on a foiling moth) but would be a struggle on a TT if enough time is not alloted (Wangi starts races around 11:00 from memory and one needs to finish before sunset to maintain its Cat rating) The nature of the bays in LM meant that you are constantly being lapped/passed by the Div1 boats. A passage race that makes the south turning mark Penticost for the Div 1 and Hamilton for us slow poke for example would have the whole fleet seeing each other in the passage north... just am example I have no experience with what the courses up there are.

As to your other suggestion neither of them would classify as Cat5 boats I think whereas my TT720 has been rated to Cat5N

I agree whole heartedly that having one Div is the ideal and a Div for every flavour and speed of boat is not to be applauded.... just need to find the balance.

I could care less about OMR ... fastest boat is the fastest boat. I sail for the thrill of the chase and to be able to see the big boy toys and share a beer after a good day out on the water.... Its not about the tin for me (which is a good thing considering how relatively slow my boat is :)

Cheers

#22 Peter Hackett

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:06 AM

Easy Red! Try Flying was expressing a valid point about the comparative speeds of the various boats we want to attract to every event, and owners of similar Trailertris to his (I used to own his and it is a great boat) would have either finished in the dark or not got a finishing flag at all in nearly every one of the ABRW races. We really need to be inclusive if we want to grow these events.

I race my F27 a lot and am happy to finish in the middle or better of every race, with an OMR result that we debate after every big event. From our point of view , and to a larger extent from a TT owner point of view there are two big issues for divisions and courses.

Firstly, the length of the races at ABRW were huge for us. We still enjoyed the tourist aspect of this, seeing a few places that we hadn't yet cruised to, one of them close enough to Bowen to smell the mangoes. In good breezes like this year the racing WAS exciting, with courses like that we shared a lot with the megamonos, and reaching past a new TP52 outside the cones is one of my sweetest memories. It WAS great to do the same course as Vodafone, and the other quicker boats, and staying ahead of a few of them for as long as we could is the motivation that keeps us dreamers racing. The downside of this at Airlie is that the breeze inevitably droppped off towards our finish so that no matter how well we sailed, the clock and the choppy stuff made for a longer day on the caravan. This also compounded any perceived inefficiency of the OMR rule with respect to little boats.

Secondly, no matter what you think of OMR or any yardstick, any system is going to fail when comparing fast boats that by rating definition are twice the speed of slow boats. With the huge mono numbers there this year, they successfully had many divisions doing many different courses. We need the same.

Can I suggest that for some of the races we adopt the thinking that set differential courses for the PCF multis including McMoggy, Wild Thing and Room With a View (and they were happy with this), where the big triangles around the awesome rocks send the fast boats one rock further occasionally. A few of those, a few back to back windward leewards, and one marathon that we all do together, so the bullshit willreally have a chance to flow in the tent!

#23 Zorro2

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:58 AM

And if you look at the last results, OMR didn't do much for the smaller boats. With the exception of Hot Vindaloo, the first 12 places out of 18 went to boats 30 feet plus. Suggest some analysis of why that might have been the case would be useful if you are trying to attract the usual F-boats etc to a national championship. Length of courses, wind strength, local conditions? Wasn't there but clearly the conditions significantly favoured the larger boats....that is, those boats who would be in div 1 at all former nats.

#24 offtherails

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:34 AM

Probably all down to different conditions.
Start the races in no wind but finish in wind, and the slow boats win , start in good wind that dies and the fast ones win and many slow ones are out the back door or dnf. ( as per plywoodboy's comments)
Ditto with tidal runs - relatively slack water for maybe an hour or so either side of high or low tides, but fierce currents half way between tides.
Now if we could all afford Seacarts or even ORMA 60s, then we could have a proper OD regatta?

#25 Peter Hackett

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:02 AM

Agree Zorro, and I absolutely loved the series up there and was prepared to ignore results knowing what was going to happen. Warned the crew and they still busted their guts for mediocre but Intriguing result. Biggest shock was where we had a blinder of a start in the last race, sailed around a big hole in ths first leg, were only passed by Bare, Trilogy, Vindaloo etc in caravan disbelief midway through the race, and we still only got a midfield OMR result with nearly the same crew that won the nationals in Hervey Bay.

Magnetic was refreshingly back to PCF, but it shouldn't have to be that way.

PS to offtherails, in 3 awesome years of ABRW and Rendezvous there has never been a race that freshened for the late finishers. It is the nature of the trades at that time.

PPS I am going back next year even if they make me sail with chippie as crew and wearing clothes is illegal.

#26 scottmax

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

If Jacko has not sold it by then I reckon he is a good chance to be a starter at Airlie on "Dux Nuts". What division would you slot the nuts into chippy?

#27 shaneo

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:41 PM

To cool the debate Airlie race week has been held as one OMR division and has been nice to see everyone play together ,It has some fors and some against depending on what you sail .
This is a nationals and WILL have separate divisions as the nationals traditionally do.
Thanks everyone for you opinions this does give us an idea of what people want ,we are a democracy and not a dictatorship like a lot of sailing and this gives us a closer community and a lot more fun. So keep the comments coming as this will help us make this a great regatta again.
Thanks Shane

#28 Closer TG

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:54 PM

Red Dolfin,

Running races were ALL OMR boats start on one line are fine so long as there is time to complete the race for the slowest boat in conditions that are roughly the same conditions as the race conditions were for the first boat to finish. In practical terms that hardly ever occurs. If you make long passage races you can then say in practice it ever occurs. The practice of divided the different types of boats into a reasonable number of divisions is a sensible way to "even out" the racing for all.

The hot boats are not hanging around waiting for the slow guys to come in and all boats have a reasonable group of "like boats" to compete against.

I just find it a pity that you Airlie guys do not bring your boats to support racing in other states much at if at all. It about time you started doing that you know.

Mark Stafford (Unashamed slow boat sailor)

#29 Red Dolphin

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

Red Dolfin,

Running races were ALL OMR boats start on one line are fine so long as there is time to complete the race for the slowest boat in conditions that are roughly the same conditions as the race conditions were for the first boat to finish. In practical terms that hardly ever occurs. If you make long passage races you can then say in practice it ever occurs. The practice of divided the different types of boats into a reasonable number of divisions is a sensible way to "even out" the racing for all.

The hot boats are not hanging around waiting for the slow guys to come in and all boats have a reasonable group of "like boats" to compete against.

I just find it a pity that you Airlie guys do not bring your boats to support racing in other states much at if at all. It about time you started doing that you know.

Mark Stafford (Unashamed slow boat sailor)


Are you guys a bit slow or something. Weather you have a division or not you are still going to be sailing with like boats on the race course. If the breeze comes in at the finish then the slow boats get the advantage. Like i said thats the nature of Handicap racing.

Lets not forget Airlie was won by a Pescott Whitehaven last year a well sailed cruising cat. What do you guys intend doing with these boats? It could be argued that the small tris should be a very similar speed to these sorts of boats.

We had 18 in OMR boats in total at airlie this year. Now that could not be considered a large number of boats. Please explain to me how breaking up such a small fleet of boats into divisions makes sense? I bet with a bit of work and maybe some sensible OMR optimisation a small boat could win. It not going to be easy but its not easy to win on a big boat either.

I reckon that it would be a pretty safe bet that the guys getting their knickers in a twist about more divisions are the guys that wont turn up. I look forward to meeting you at airlie Mark so you can prove me wrong.

#30 Indian Chief

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:13 AM

At this stage we are committed to going on the red boat. I got to say that the division thing seems to work just like it does for the experienced organisers of half boat regattas. i would also think we should start to think about a "sports multi" division for the likes of the Nacra 36 and any other big beach cats ( eg can't get inside the hulls) that turn up as they are vastly different to my style of race cat with a dunny and accommodation, all be it tight!!!

interestingly, i don't think that keel boat people do nationals of mixed fleets...maybe thats our answer, we just call it the Australian Multihull Regatta rather than the national championship and within that Australian Multihull Regatta we have the appropriate divisions. that way any multihulls of the same type can have their nationals just like the 5 MC38's and the few Farr 40s and the dozen Sydney 38 monos are doing. but that takes the likes of Mr Farrier or Corsair to organise it for their boats. So if you think of it like that it really doesn't work so maybe our current system does work ok. In any case what are we trying to achieve? i'd rather just go sailing and enjoy it as we did at Wangi, the fact that we happened to win Div 1 makes it sweeter but in my and my crew's mind the real winner was multihull sailing!

#31 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:54 AM

.
thank god for divisions 'eh, else to win anything you'd have to buy the OMR speedster 'Raw Fin' :)

she's a li'l ripper
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serious question: where are the Tramp moulds ??
ex OSTAC no doubt

#32 Tony Considine

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:10 AM

The National Championships were always for Trailable Multihulls and the last one was in 2009 at Hervey Bay but were opened up after that regatta to allow any multihull to enter hence we now see boats like a Nacra 36 and I guess someone will rock up with a C Class cat or a Marstrom 32 or maybe even an Extreme 40

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#33 auscat

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:16 AM

The monos run an Australian IRC championships with everything from 30-100 ftrs competing,split into divisions according to ratings.
I think thats pretty much how the multi nationals have been run for the last few years with no mention of trailable.Surely the more boats we can get together is what its about?For my money if you can make cat 5 have a go.
This year at Airlie most people wanted one division and with the good breeze we had the little guys got a bit nocked around.A few years ago we had a light regatta and the little tris cleaned up with all the big cats out the back door.
Next year there will be 2 divisions with the lower rating boats doing shorter courses and slightly more inshore to make sure they have plenty of energy for the beer tent after.
As far as the name goes ,well call it the Inter Galactic Trans Dimensional Championships of The Universe but I think we'll need bigger trophies for that.Maybe the sponsers should have a hand in that (hint,hint).The club looks like having some good sponsers next year but there is always room for more(hint,hint).

All this input is great guys and a lot of it pretty much mirrors what Shaneo and I have been talking about and also given us a few more things on the jobs list guys so keep it comming.
Got a bit of a shortage of boats up here at the moment so there will probably be a few blokes looking for a ride when we get a bit closer.

#34 Fuller

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:26 AM

Easy Red! Try Flying was expressing a valid point about the comparative speeds of the various boats we want to attract to every event, and owners of similar Trailertris to his (I used to own his and it is a great boat) would have either finished in the dark or not got a finishing flag at all in nearly every one of the ABRW races. We really need to be inclusive if we want to grow these events.

I race my F27 a lot and am happy to finish in the middle or better of every race, with an OMR result that we debate after every big event. From our point of view , and to a larger extent from a TT owner point of view there are two big issues for divisions and courses.

Firstly, the length of the races at ABRW were huge for us. We still enjoyed the tourist aspect of this, seeing a few places that we hadn't yet cruised to, one of them close enough to Bowen to smell the mangoes. In good breezes like this year the racing WAS exciting, with courses like that we shared a lot with the megamonos, and reaching past a new TP52 outside the cones is one of my sweetest memories. It WAS great to do the same course as Vodafone, and the other quicker boats, and staying ahead of a few of them for as long as we could is the motivation that keeps us dreamers racing. The downside of this at Airlie is that the breeze inevitably droppped off towards our finish so that no matter how well we sailed, the clock and the choppy stuff made for a longer day on the caravan. This also compounded any perceived inefficiency of the OMR rule with respect to little boats.

Secondly, no matter what you think of OMR or any yardstick, any system is going to fail when comparing fast boats that by rating definition are twice the speed of slow boats. With the huge mono numbers there this year, they successfully had many divisions doing many different courses. We need the same.

Can I suggest that for some of the races we adopt the thinking that set differential courses for the PCF multis including McMoggy, Wild Thing and Room With a View (and they were happy with this), where the big triangles around the awesome rocks send the fast boats one rock further occasionally. A few of those, a few back to back windward leewards, and one marathon that we all do together, so the bullshit willreally have a chance to flow in the tent!

Shit Pete your making sense!!

#35 Try Flying

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:28 AM

All sounds good to me. The only thing that nobody likes is starting a course you know you will have no chance of finishing in the allocated time... DNF's for that reason are very disheartening.

Couple questions:
  • Isn't it a requirement of Cat 5 to have a place for the crew to shelter and at minimum a bucket as a loo?.. how does a big beach cat get Cat5? (not a shot or trying to exclude anyone just a question)
  • Will you be getting an exemption for the storm sails (most don't have these)
  • Anyone ever consider a distance over time passage race? That way everyone is on the same course but the number of laps (or fractions thereof) is what varies... impossible to DNF this thru lack of time

Don't get me wrong I love long passage races... hell I did over 3 and half laps of the LM course (ie over 100nm) in a HCW a few years back.... it just took me 24hrs to do it :) ... Not only that but I even beat Two Tribes one year as he had to pull out after a lap and a half so i know the tortoise can beat the hare... even without OMR smoke and mirrors


Cheers

PS Red I'm another Mark and at this stage I probably won't be able to make Airlie :(

#36 Fuller

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:40 AM


Red Dolfin,

Running races were ALL OMR boats start on one line are fine so long as there is time to complete the race for the slowest boat in conditions that are roughly the same conditions as the race conditions were for the first boat to finish. In practical terms that hardly ever occurs. If you make long passage races you can then say in practice it ever occurs. The practice of divided the different types of boats into a reasonable number of divisions is a sensible way to "even out" the racing for all.

The hot boats are not hanging around waiting for the slow guys to come in and all boats have a reasonable group of "like boats" to compete against.

I just find it a pity that you Airlie guys do not bring your boats to support racing in other states much at if at all. It about time you started doing that you know.

Mark Stafford (Unashamed slow boat sailor)


Are you guys a bit slow or something. Weather you have a division or not you are still going to be sailing with like boats on the race course. If the breeze comes in at the finish then the slow boats get the advantage. Like i said thats the nature of Handicap racing.

Lets not forget Airlie was won by a Pescott Whitehaven last year a well sailed cruising cat. What do you guys intend doing with these boats? It could be argued that the small tris should be a very similar speed to these sorts of boats.

We had 18 in OMR boats in total at airlie this year. Now that could not be considered a large number of boats. Please explain to me how breaking up such a small fleet of boats into divisions makes sense? I bet with a bit of work and maybe some sensible OMR optimisation a small boat could win. It not going to be easy but its not easy to win on a big boat either.

I reckon that it would be a pretty safe bet that the guys getting their knickers in a twist about more divisions are the guys that wont turn up. I look forward to meeting you at airlie Mark so you can prove me wrong.

I believe their should be 3 divisions, I will be there and I will tell you why when I see you.. What boat do you own?

#37 oomummado

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:40 AM

All sounds good to me. The only thing that nobody likes is starting a course you know you will have no chance of finishing in the allocated time... DNF's for that reason are very disheartening.

Couple questions:

  • Isn't it a requirement of Cat 5 to have a place for the crew to shelter and at minimum a bucket as a loo?.. how does a big beach cat get Cat5? (not a shot or trying to exclude anyone just a question)
  • Will you be getting an exemption for the storm sails (most don't have these)
  • Anyone ever consider a distance over time passage race? That way everyone is on the same course but the number of laps (or fractions thereof) is what varies... impossible to DNF this thru lack of time
Don't get me wrong I love long passage races... hell I did over 3 and half laps of the LM course (ie over 100nm) in a HCW a few years back.... it just took me 24hrs to do it :) ... Not only that but I even beat Two Tribes one year as he had to pull out after a lap and a half so i know the tortoise can beat the hare... even without OMR smoke and mirrors


Cheers

PS Red I'm another Mark and at this stage I probably won't be able to make Airlie :(


Some valid points here. Probably something that needs to be looked at before it becomes messy. Much easier to draw a line in the sand now in regards to some of the new boats with no provision to enter the hulls etc. Otherwise whats to stop people putting a small electric outboard on a Tornado catamaran and a small bag of Cat 5 safety gear and turning up to race? I dare say that this is not really the intent or in the spirit of OMR and / or the Australian trailable multihull championships.

#38 auscat

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:05 AM


All sounds good to me. The only thing that nobody likes is starting a course you know you will have no chance of finishing in the allocated time... DNF's for that reason are very disheartening.

Couple questions:

  • Isn't it a requirement of Cat 5 to have a place for the crew to shelter and at minimum a bucket as a loo?.. how does a big beach cat get Cat5? (not a shot or trying to exclude anyone just a question)
  • Will you be getting an exemption for the storm sails (most don't have these)
  • Anyone ever consider a distance over time passage race? That way everyone is on the same course but the number of laps (or fractions thereof) is what varies... impossible to DNF this thru lack of time
Don't get me wrong I love long passage races... hell I did over 3 and half laps of the LM course (ie over 100nm) in a HCW a few years back.... it just took me 24hrs to do it :) ... Not only that but I even beat Two Tribes one year as he had to pull out after a lap and a half so i know the tortoise can beat the hare... even without OMR smoke and mirrors


Cheers

PS Red I'm another Mark and at this stage I probably won't be able to make Airlie :(


Some valid points here. Probably something that needs to be looked at before it becomes messy. Much easier to draw a line in the sand now in regards to some of the new boats with no provision to enter the hulls etc. Otherwise whats to stop people putting a small electric outboard on a Tornado catamaran and a small bag of Cat 5 safety gear and turning up to race? I dare say that this is not really the intent or in the spirit of OMR and / or the Australian trailable multihull championships.


Absolutly nothing to stop a beach cat entering as long as it has the safety gear for cat 5.The fuel requirements may be hard to meet,but there is no need for bunks or dunny in cat 5.
Cat 5 is basically flares,life jackets,motor ,lights and anchor.

#39 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:31 AM

storm sails / Orange patch, reefing main

and .... a REAL first aid kit

and .... horsehoe buoy, V sheet

and .. throwing line

fire blanky

and ..... INSTALLED radio and ......

water, plus mo water.

Not a small bag ooma

#40 Try Flying

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:09 PM

I've misplaced my blue book but I can remember a few of the bits.

Couple of gotya's in the audit form that you need a savy safety inspector for and need to be read in conjuction with the blue book:
  • Lifelines are listed in the audit form but their are exemptions for mulits (basically means you need to wear a life jacket at all times
  • Horseshoe or retrieval sling
  • VHF radio (with a licensed operator... yeah how may of those out there?) but it can be a handheld.. you can thank the HCW for that one
  • BTW there are some older audit forms floating around that list a bosuns chair which is actually Cat4
  • First aid kit is very similar to Cat7 but some of the quantaties have increase CPR mask is one a lot miss
  • method of latching wash board (also attatched to the boat and having it fixable from inside the cabin or outside
  • might be an exemption but could swear that you needed a place for the crew to shelter out of the weather and a cooking method but again I could be wrong on that one..or it was only when you step up to Cat5n ... need to find my blue book
  • All the stuff Gybe mentions ..BTW is a patch on your nornal sail sufficant? I was under the inpression it needed to be a seperate and heavier sail that is all safety orange. We get a waiver for that every year for the HCW24hr, this is something the organisers need to be sure of and apply for early as I think its part of the aquatic license for an event

The point is those that have not gone thru the process before would be well advised to get out their blue book and double check rather than rock up and hit a tough safety officer that has you running around on race day trying to get your gear sorted.

Just thought of another bit of kit... EPIRB... (distance offshore?)

Its not hard to get a boat up to scratch, nor overly expensive and its all good kit that you should have anyway.. its just something you don't want to stress about after a long drive to sunny qld.

Should be an awesome event.. might just have to quit my new job :)

#41 auscat

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

What is in cat 5 was not the question,rather could a beach cat strap the gear on and have a go?The answer is there is nothing in OMR or cat 5 requirements to stop them.But if you want to get picky having charts of the race area might catch a few out.

Most notices of race start out with "owners of well found and suitable boats" and also note that any entry can be refused.If you want to exclude someone thats the place to start ,or rewrite the rule book.

#42 sk8

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:03 PM

Should be an awesome event.. might just have to quit my new job :)

You could always bring your CNC machine to Airlie Beach... If you enter your TT, I'll enter mine so you'll have some one to chase you
;)

#43 Robnacra

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:06 AM

I know someone with an f20c.... Could easily meet what's been mentioned ;)

Anything on trapezes?

#44 Smooth Cruiser

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:45 AM

Most of my thoughts and reasons for them have already been aired. I am in the camp that supports having enough divisions to ensure that everyone has a fair go within the division that they fall in - this could be 2-4 divs depending on the fleet that arrives.

I was very disappointed for one of the boats in Performance Multi's this year at ABRW who DNF'ed the first day because the course was too long for him - good way to ruin a regatta for them and something that really (in my mind) dictates that divisions are set up to suit boats like this or they will stop turning up.

I also agree with courses that interact throughout the day with the faster boats doing an extra island or rock before meeting back up with slower boats - I have always loved these races seeing where everyone falls back into place.

One difficulty with multiple divisions and multiple courses is having clear and distinct finish lines for each course. At ABRW this year this got a little confusing - on one day there were three seperate "official" boats with flags sitting next to marks in Pioneer Bay that all could have been a finish. I was tempted to cross all three just to make sure! Keeping the same finish boat and same finish location for each division all week or having big division flags on the finish boats (or just one line for everyone) can address this but it needs some thought up front in the planning.

As one of the bigger boats I would always prefer passage races or laps of the bay to windward leewards, but recognise the merit these have in distinguishing boats who have good crew work. One day W/L maximum though please for any of the bigger boats - the drawcard this area has is the scenery and the islands, W/L's can be done anywhere!

Otherwise - all good - and I'm sure it will be a great week. I would encourage anyone to make the trip up by water or by road - Airlie is a great place to sail and a great place to swap the B/S in the beer tent afterwards. And make sure you stay for the fun race and make an effort to get up to Maggie too! A full month of sailing that must be experienced! I'll be there . . . (again).

#45 Wilpy

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:01 AM

Seeing as I am sitting in the Marla "Hilton" I thought I should put my 10 cents into this debate.
I think it's great that Airlie Beach has got the nationals for 2013, It is a great place to sail and the scenery is great.
My personal feeling is that a nationals needs to have windward/leeward courses but not to many of them. A single day with multiple races would suit me fine in this regard.
The major reason that we feel the need to do the 6000km round trip is the longer course racing around the spectacular islands that are in the vicinity of the bay.
There are plenty of options to stuff up sailing around the islands up there with the tides and the wind shadows so surely that contributes to the talent and "making the grade" for a national champion rather than just being the one who can propel their vessel around some bouys at the fastest mean velocity.
I think that sailing in divisions is a must because when Vodafone starts at approx 1.48 OMR and a trailertri starts at 0.65 then the time difference for a race is too dramatic to every be considered a level playing field. It should be possible to have different length courses in the same general direction for the different divisions as there are plenty of islands / rocks to choose from.
It should be possible to allay the finish line concerns as our finish has always been off Mandalay Point (in a very annoying wind shadow) but some of the windward/leeward courses have been near some of the other pioneer bay marks making them hard to find in the past.

#46 auscat

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:04 AM

There are over 20 differant courses for the officials to choose from at race week and with someone on the inside next year I'm sure those problems will be addressed.As Wilpy said the finish for ALL passage races is inthe same spot every day.There are a number of fixed marks in the bay which are all the same colour and a gps is given for each one.Any divisions doing W/L races use differant coloured bouys.
Having done many years of racing here I still get confused and often have to reread the course several times to make sure.Now days we go out the day before,sail around all the marks and mark them as waypoints on the plotter sure takes a lot of the guess work out.
I cant really see any way around these problems as there are a lot of divisions doing a lot of differant courses on the same bit of water.

#47 oomummado

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:02 AM

Why not go back to the old Triangle - Windward Return style racing. Monohulls sail windward leewards. Multihulls are made for reaching yet we have courses that make you sail VMG. Bring back the Triangles and you will encourage more entries and more fun.

#48 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:59 AM

I know someone with an f20c.... Could easily meet what's been mentioned ;)

Anything on trapezes?


always: RRS 49.1

#49 shaneo

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:10 AM

Seeing as I am sitting in the Marla "Hilton" I thought I should put my 10 cents into this debate.
I think it's great that Airlie Beach has got the nationals for 2013, It is a great place to sail and the scenery is great.
My personal feeling is that a nationals needs to have windward/leeward courses but not to many of them. A single day with multiple races would suit me fine in this regard.
The major reason that we feel the need to do the 6000km round trip is the longer course racing around the spectacular islands that are in the vicinity of the bay.
There are plenty of options to stuff up sailing around the islands up there with the tides and the wind shadows so surely that contributes to the talent and "making the grade" for a national champion rather than just being the one who can propel their vessel around some bouys at the fastest mean velocity.
I think that sailing in divisions is a must because when Vodafone starts at approx 1.48 OMR and a trailertri starts at 0.65 then the time difference for a race is too dramatic to every be considered a level playing field. It should be possible to have different length courses in the same general direction for the different divisions as there are plenty of islands / rocks to choose from.
It should be possible to allay the finish line concerns as our finish has always been off Mandalay Point (in a very annoying wind shadow) but some of the windward/leeward courses have been near some of the other pioneer bay marks making them hard to find in the past.


What you are saying seems to be what most people are asking for and also makes a lot of sense. The point about Mandalay has been brought up with the committee.

#50 DtM

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:33 AM

Why not go back to the old Triangle - Windward Return style racing. Monohulls sail windward leewards. Multihulls are made for reaching yet we have courses that make you sail VMG. Bring back the Triangles and you will encourage more entries and more fun.


That is the idea of the thread so far.

So is there a PHS division for our big French condomaran?

#51 oomummado

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:07 AM


Why not go back to the old Triangle - Windward Return style racing. Monohulls sail windward leewards. Multihulls are made for reaching yet we have courses that make you sail VMG. Bring back the Triangles and you will encourage more entries and more fun.


That is the idea of the thread so far.

So is there a PHS division for our big French condomaran?


Yeah - lets lobby for more reaching. BRING BACK THE TRIANGLE. We are not puppets to monohulls. A Triangle / windward return (finishing at the bottom mark makes a lot of sense and would be a heap more fun) VMG running is GAY, GAY, GAY

#52 Robnacra

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:33 AM

Thing is with a reach there is little gains to be made, less skill involved... Takes the tactics out of it. VMG is still fun when your flying a hull doing it :)

#53 bfp

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:28 AM

Thing is with a reach there is little gains to be made, less skill involved... Takes the tactics out of it. VMG is still fun when your flying a hull doing it :)


Not so sure about the lack of skill involved ingetting the powered up multi's to reach. 135 true is probably the biggest danger for tipping it in (ask Oracle!) and it would introduce another variable in the sail selection if you know you are going to have to reach. Lots of tactics as to when to get the reaching sail off and back on etc if you are not quite laying and things like that.

It would just be another variable in the event, rather than knowing you are going to VMG back downwind.

#54 auscat

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:04 AM

The last couple of years we have had a trapezoid course as part of our local racing.Quite an entertaining event.Usually the length of the legs is the issue,with it being set for slow monos.I recall once we did 11 legs in 45min on Cyno and finished at least 25 min in front of the 1st mono. I reckon if the legs were made long enough it would really test you out quite well.Anyone else sailed these courses?

#55 im hungry

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:44 AM


Thing is with a reach there is little gains to be made, less skill involved... Takes the tactics out of it. VMG is still fun when your flying a hull doing it :)


Not so sure about the lack of skill involved ingetting the powered up multi's to reach. 135 true is probably the biggest danger for tipping it in (ask Oracle!) and it would introduce another variable in the sail selection if you know you are going to have to reach. Lots of tactics as to when to get the reaching sail off and back on etc if you are not quite laying and things like that.

It would just be another variable in the event, rather than knowing you are going to VMG back downwind.


if u r racing around the islands chances are there is going to be a a mixture of reaching and running legs........ so if u do round the island races rather than round the cans racing, everyone is a happy camper :)

#56 Fuller

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:03 AM



Thing is with a reach there is little gains to be made, less skill involved... Takes the tactics out of it. VMG is still fun when your flying a hull doing it :)


Not so sure about the lack of skill involved ingetting the powered up multi's to reach. 135 true is probably the biggest danger for tipping it in (ask Oracle!) and it would introduce another variable in the sail selection if you know you are going to have to reach. Lots of tactics as to when to get the reaching sail off and back on etc if you are not quite laying and things like that.

It would just be another variable in the event, rather than knowing you are going to VMG back downwind.


if u r racing around the islands chances are there is going to be a a mixture of reaching and running legs........ so if u do round the island races rather than round the cans racing, everyone is a happy camper :)

I wont be happy, waves are to big out there... Mix it up to cater for all boats.

#57 shaneo

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

The last couple of years we have had a trapezoid course as part of our local racing.Quite an entertaining event.Usually the length of the legs is the issue,with it being set for slow monos.I recall once we did 11 legs in 45min on Cyno and finished at least 25 min in front of the 1st mono. I reckon if the legs were made long enough it would really test you out quite well.Anyone else sailed these courses?


Your got to be kidding you were steering I was doing the traveller as well as doing other jobs around the marks whitch is pretty easy compared to the poor bastards at the mast it was totally f---ed . No one had a beer and and when we did recover only 1/2 the crew had one (me and the other alcoholics) because it made you fell like spewing after the extreme exertion .

#58 Peter Hackett

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:16 AM

But did Pinny have dry cigs?

#59 Robnacra

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:11 PM

Exactly we have plenty of reaching round the islands in flat and lumpy waters. I think one day on windward returns would be good. Maybe 3 races over the day though. But I don't own a boat so my 2c ain't worth bob. :)

#60 auscat

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:54 AM


The last couple of years we have had a trapezoid course as part of our local racing.Quite an entertaining event.Usually the length of the legs is the issue,with it being set for slow monos.I recall once we did 11 legs in 45min on Cyno and finished at least 25 min in front of the 1st mono. I reckon if the legs were made long enough it would really test you out quite well.Anyone else sailed these courses?


Your got to be kidding you were steering I was doing the traveller as well as doing other jobs around the marks whitch is pretty easy compared to the poor bastards at the mast it was totally f---ed . No one had a beer and and when we did recover only 1/2 the crew had one (me and the other alcoholics) because it made you fell like spewing after the extreme exertion .


Your just worried about the takings at the beer tent after.Worried everyone will be too knakered for a beer.Typical comitee member just worried about the bottom line :lol: :P

#61 Wilpy

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:47 AM




Thing is with a reach there is little gains to be made, less skill involved... Takes the tactics out of it. VMG is still fun when your flying a hull doing it :)


Not so sure about the lack of skill involved ingetting the powered up multi's to reach. 135 true is probably the biggest danger for tipping it in (ask Oracle!) and it would introduce another variable in the sail selection if you know you are going to have to reach. Lots of tactics as to when to get the reaching sail off and back on etc if you are not quite laying and things like that.

It would just be another variable in the event, rather than knowing you are going to VMG back downwind.


if u r racing around the islands chances are there is going to be a a mixture of reaching and running legs........ so if u do round the island races rather than round the cans racing, everyone is a happy camper :)

I wont be happy, waves are to big out there... Mix it up to cater for all boats.


Since when have you been worried about waves?
Or doesn't the SOMR go to the fairway and Flinders these days?

#62 Fuller

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:18 AM


The last couple of years we have had a trapezoid course as part of our local racing.Quite an entertaining event.Usually the length of the legs is the issue,with it being set for slow monos.I recall once we did 11 legs in 45min on Cyno and finished at least 25 min in front of the 1st mono. I reckon if the legs were made long enough it would really test you out quite well.Anyone else sailed these courses?


Your got to be kidding you were steering I was doing the traveller as well as doing other jobs around the marks whitch is pretty easy compared to the poor bastards at the mast it was totally f---ed . No one had a beer and and when we did recover only 1/2 the crew had one (me and the other alcoholics) because it made you fell like spewing after the extreme exertion .

But did Pinny have dry cigs?

Sounds like Shaneo isn't fit??

#63 Fuller

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:20 AM





Thing is with a reach there is little gains to be made, less skill involved... Takes the tactics out of it. VMG is still fun when your flying a hull doing it :)


Not so sure about the lack of skill involved ingetting the powered up multi's to reach. 135 true is probably the biggest danger for tipping it in (ask Oracle!) and it would introduce another variable in the sail selection if you know you are going to have to reach. Lots of tactics as to when to get the reaching sail off and back on etc if you are not quite laying and things like that.

It would just be another variable in the event, rather than knowing you are going to VMG back downwind.


if u r racing around the islands chances are there is going to be a a mixture of reaching and running legs........ so if u do round the island races rather than round the cans racing, everyone is a happy camper :)

I wont be happy, waves are to big out there... Mix it up to cater for all boats.


Since when have you been worried about waves?
Or doesn't the SOMR go to the fairway and Flinders these days?

Flinders race was on the weekend. 30knts+ Bunch of softy's Chickened out. I would of gone....

#64 multihull

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:02 PM

It's about time I appeared from the clouds and put my two bobs worth in. As I mentioned in another thread I'd like to see big boats and small in the Nationals. Not just a National Trailerable event but a true mixing of Multihull. They do need to be split into at least 3 divisions based on PCF not OMR. Rhythmic has an OMR of .75 but sails to over .8 PCF and I'd find it pretty boring to be in a Classic racing division. Also we have made a note in previous sailing instructions that the Sailing Committee have the right to place boats in a division at their discretion.

Based on PCF
- Div 1(High Performance) - .9 and above;
- Div 2 (Performance) .8 to .9
- Div 3 (Classic & cruising) under .8

If you throw all the multis in one division there are all the problems already mentioned by others such as slower boats will have trouble completing the course in the allocated time, Conditions maybe too rough or dangerous for smaller craft. Also OMR is a Development Rule as detailed in the pre amble so it will always favour the high tech modern vessels that take advantage of the rule were certain parameters and performance enhancing up grades aren't taken into account. Such as: length to beam hull ratios, lifting foils, canting rigs, hull shapes etc. It would be unfair to place a Corsair F-24Mk II with a Length to beam ration of 9:1 which also has lots of main hull rocker against Team Australia with a hull to length ratio of let say (only guessing) 15:1, lifting foils, canting rig, etc

Also if the Airlie Beach team want some help from with sailing instructions myself or Plywood Boy can forward you copies of past sailing instructions we have used in previous NATS.

#65 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:47 PM

there were different divisions & courses at the recent Nationals

why should is this be any different

are ppl confusing nats with abrw ?

#66 shaneo

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:25 PM

To cool the debate Airlie race week has been held as one OMR division and has been nice to see everyone play together ,It has some for and some against depending on what you sail .
This is a nationals and WILL have separate divisions as the nationals traditionally do.
Thanks everyone for you opinions this does give us an idea of what people want ,we are a democracy and not a dictatorship like a lot of sailing and this gives us a closer community and a lot more fun. So keep the comments coming as this will help us make this a great regatta again.
Thanks Shane


I will say again there will be divisions

#67 shaneo

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:36 PM

It's about time I appeared from the clouds and put my two bobs worth in. As I mentioned in another thread I'd like to see big boats and small in the Nationals. Not just a National Trailerable event but a true mixing of Multihull. They do need to be split into at least 3 divisions based on PCF not OMR. Rhythmic has an OMR of .75 but sails to over .8 PCF and I'd find it pretty boring to be in a Classic racing division. Also we have made a note in previous sailing instructions that the Sailing Committee have the right to place boats in a division at their discretion.

Based on PCF
- Div 1(High Performance) - .9 and above;
- Div 2 (Performance) .8 to .9
- Div 3 (Classic & cruising) under .8

If you throw all the multis in one division there are all the problems already mentioned by others such as slower boats will have trouble completing the course in the allocated time, Conditions maybe too rough or dangerous for smaller craft. Also OMR is a Development Rule as detailed in the pre amble so it will always favour the high tech modern vessels that take advantage of the rule were certain parameters and performance enhancing up grades aren't taken into account. Such as: length to beam hull ratios, lifting foils, canting rigs, hull shapes etc. It would be unfair to place a Corsair F-24Mk II with a Length to beam ration of 9:1 which also has lots of main hull rocker against Team Australia with a hull to length ratio of let say (only guessing) 15:1, lifting foils, canting rig, etc

Also if the Airlie Beach team want some help from with sailing instructions myself or Plywood Boy can forward you copies of past sailing instructions we have used in previous NATS.


Thanks already have them but good idea and we are talking to other experienced national organizers . If anyone has some info they think will help post here or pm me thanks Shane .

#68 Robnacra

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:55 AM

Think abrw should be seperate still... Have the race week as usual then multi Nats after the fun race day or would that cut it to fine maggie?

#69 offtherails

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

Nats at Airlie are 8/8 to 15/8, HIrw is 16/8 to 24/8, MIrw is 29/8 to 3/9 - leaves only a couple of days for work?

#70 Robnacra

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:54 AM

Multis can't do hammo unless you have an orma 60 so just have it during hammo week.... Work is overrated anyways.

#71 Peter Hackett

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:57 AM

Just heard on Brisvegas grapevine that Frequent Flyer the fairly recently launched Pescott Firefly got a choctop at Manly Wags today in front of the entrance beacons, hope Chris gets her sorted for Surf2City he was tipped to win.
Pic from QCYC Winter Series.

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#72 rob d

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

Hope that beautiful rig survived.

#73 multihull

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

Just heard on Brisvegas grapevine that Frequent Flyer the fairly recently launched Pescott Firefly got a choctop at Manly Wags today in front of the entrance beacons, hope Chris gets her sorted for Surf2City he was tipped to win.
Pic from QCYC Winter Series.

I watched them head out of the marina today as I ate my lunch. They did put a reef in but it took them 20 minutes to get the main up and a reef in and I thought to myself "Gee I hope they don't tip it over". It was bloody windy out there on Moreton Bay today. Crusey was on board so I think that means he's been over 4 times now on catamarans now. "The cures of the Cruse"

#74 multihull

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:18 AM

I better retract my last statement about Crusey. No he wasn't onboard Frequent Flyer he was on Free Spirit drinking free spirits and then after the race he helped secure the vessel back at RQYS.

#75 Fuller

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:31 AM


Just heard on Brisvegas grapevine that Frequent Flyer the fairly recently launched Pescott Firefly got a choctop at Manly Wags today in front of the entrance beacons, hope Chris gets her sorted for Surf2City he was tipped to win.
Pic from QCYC Winter Series.

I watched them head out of the marina today as I ate my lunch. They did put a reef in but it took them 20 minutes to get the main up and a reef in and I thought to myself "Gee I hope they don't tip it over". It was bloody windy out there on Moreton Bay today. Crusey was on board so I think that means he's been over 4 times now on catamarans now. "The cures of the Cruse"

Funny you said that about Cruisey, I ask the same question, What boat were you on.....? Sounds nasty though, Skipper in hospital and one sad mast.

#76 Smooth Cruiser

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:32 PM

It was pretty breezy out there - I was sailing on my boat and we had pretty steady 25knots with gusts close to 30. I just caught the end of Frequent Flyer going over - hard to tell what happened - they were only about 100m short of the finish line and they may have been trying to bear away to the line. I went across to them but all were accounted for by then with other boats on station - and I had my own worries to deal with as one engine wouldn't run - not fun going back into the marina with a lot of windage, a big crossbreeze and only one engine so I chugged around for a while setting up the dinghy as a jury engine. While I was doing this it looked like the mast snapped as they stopped being propped up and ended up completely upside down. The coastgaurd boat rerighted them and got them back into the pen just at the end of the presentations so good effort from all involved. Haven't heard an update on Chris's condition - off to hospotal for rib x-rays that night. Hope people and boat get sorted.

#77 Peter Hackett

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:56 AM

Broken ribs punctured lung but keen to get straight back on the horse.
Was that the same motor that was mental up north?

#78 Smooth Cruiser

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:11 PM

Yeah same engine - different issue though - impellor gone.

#79 Roadranger

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:38 PM

My opinions on race format for a regatta have been lied about and exaggerated by those incapable of sailing windward / leeward courses , so here it is .
To call a regatta a championship of any form it has to have a variety of courses to test each boat in different conditions . Anybody can point a boat at an island and reach there . We know before the start which boats reach fastest ( and co-insidently these are the vocal ones for no w/l races ) so for the slower boats ,soldiers courses around islands don't prove much .
We

#80 Roadranger

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:57 PM

Know and understand that a lot of guys come here to see the Whitsundays and that definitely should be a big part of the regatta but let's put some tactics into it at least for one day .
As for the suggestion to race triangles , they are no better than island races if you don't have to sail VMG downhill .
W/L courses show crew work , boat handling , knowledge of rules , and above all ,tactics .Some boats don't like sailing them, some boats don't do well in them , but over a week long regatta they will even the score and the winner overall can. then call themselves a champion.
I would like to see one day of 2 or 3 W/L races in the bay , this would be a great spectacle for those on shore as well.
PS . Don't know why this rant posted as two posts pls read as one !!

#81 oomummado

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:06 PM

My opinions on race format for a regatta have been lied about and exaggerated by those incapable of sailing windward / leeward courses , so here it is .
To call a regatta a championship of any form it has to have a variety of courses to test each boat in different conditions . Anybody can point a boat at an island and reach there . We know before the start which boats reach fastest ( and co-insidently these are the vocal ones for no w/l races ) so for the slower boats ,soldiers courses around islands don't prove much .
We

I would have thought a triangle / windward return would have been the truest test of all. Upwind / reaching and VMG running in a single race without any islands and major geographic situations. What could be a truer overall test of a boat and crew?

Secondly - it takes more tactical nouse to get around a passage race than a W/L. So again - I dont understand your point.

#82 oomummado

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:11 PM


My opinions on race format for a regatta have been lied about and exaggerated by those incapable of sailing windward / leeward courses , so here it is .
To call a regatta a championship of any form it has to have a variety of courses to test each boat in different conditions . Anybody can point a boat at an island and reach there . We know before the start which boats reach fastest ( and co-insidently these are the vocal ones for no w/l races ) so for the slower boats ,soldiers courses around islands don't prove much .
We

I would have thought a triangle / windward return would have been the truest test of all. Upwind / reaching and VMG running in a single race without any islands and major geographic situations. What could be a truer overall test of a boat and crew?

Secondly - it takes more tactical nouse to get around a passage race than a W/L. So again - I dont understand your point.


A day or two of W/L is fine. I think the point is that it could be mixed up a bit more rather than a couple of passage races and the rest W/L

#83 auscat

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:10 PM

At this stage the basic plan is The Cones race day 1with differant divisions going round differant islands.Day 2 , 2 W/L races .Day3 long race.Day4 layday.
Day 5 passage race and the last day is an orianteering course in the bay,a combination of triangles and W/L with laps dependant on breeze to make sure everyone is back at a reasonable hour for presentations.
Abit of everything there.Like I said thats the rough plan.

#84 Fuller

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:55 PM

At this stage the basic plan is The Cones race day 1with differant divisions going round differant islands.Day 2 , 2 W/L races .Day3 long race.Day4 layday.
Day 5 passage race and the last day is an orianteering course in the bay,a combination of triangles and W/L with laps dependant on breeze to make sure everyone is back at a reasonable hour for presentations.
Abit of everything there.Like I said thats the rough plan.

Roughly I like that!!

#85 Rossy

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

Sounds great
I know its nearly blasphemy but the divisions/course splits that the monos use are reasonable(IRC race as opposed to IRC cruise) as far as Im concerned.

All in will never work, romantic as it sounds

Go the Chief!!

At this stage the basic plan is The Cones race day 1with differant divisions going round differant islands.Day 2 , 2 W/L races .Day3 long race.Day4 layday.
Day 5 passage race and the last day is an orianteering course in the bay,a combination of triangles and W/L with laps dependant on breeze to make sure everyone is back at a reasonable hour for presentations.
Abit of everything there.Like I said thats the rough plan.



#86 Wilpy

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:30 AM


At this stage the basic plan is The Cones race day 1with differant divisions going round differant islands.Day 2 , 2 W/L races .Day3 long race.Day4 layday.
Day 5 passage race and the last day is an orianteering course in the bay,a combination of triangles and W/L with laps dependant on breeze to make sure everyone is back at a reasonable hour for presentations.
Abit of everything there.Like I said thats the rough plan.

Roughly I like that!!


Roughly, sounds good to me. Worth the drive......

#87 Eightball

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:03 AM

Is there any place in this regatta for at least one sternchaser start? Waaay back when we used to have one as part of SOMR, we used to get a few whingers ( usually the big spenders) saying it was alltoohard/unfair/demeaning, woteva,
But i noticed everybody had huge grins coming in afterwards. The final drag race to the line allowed everyone to have the experience of thinking they were beating Raw Nerve/ Wilparina, at least for a little while and it gave the slowboats a chance to get to the clubhouse before the beer and barbie ran out. I may be running on faulty logic but I can't see how staggered starts with elapsed times properly recorded is unfair in any way. Maybe some of us are just addicted to mass starts as a bloodsport.
Just Sayin'......

#88 Eightball

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:09 AM

Whoops! should proofread before I hit the Post button. Rob, not suggesting you were one of the whingers !!

#89 auscat

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:29 PM

Is there any place in this regatta for at least one sternchaser start? Waaay back when we used to have one as part of SOMR, we used to get a few whingers ( usually the big spenders) saying it was alltoohard/unfair/demeaning, woteva,
But i noticed everybody had huge grins coming in afterwards. The final drag race to the line allowed everyone to have the experience of thinking they were beating Raw Nerve/ Wilparina, at least for a little while and it gave the slowboats a chance to get to the clubhouse before the beer and barbie ran out. I may be running on faulty logic but I can't see how staggered starts with elapsed times properly recorded is unfair in any way. Maybe some of us are just addicted to mass starts as a bloodsport.
Just Sayin'......


If you are brave enough to evaluate the fleet and direct the start times,

The Whitsundays will give a test to all entrants

Hope you own a large tank of rum to survive,

#90 Roadranger

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

Might be a bit of fun but certainly not part of any championship . Maybe you and oomammado can go and play together .He dosnt seem to understand yacht racing either.




#91 auscat

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:52 PM

Might be a bit of fun but certainly not part of any championship . Maybe you and oomammado can go and play together .He dosnt seem to understand yacht racing either.


WTF? Go the cranky little kiwi.

#92 Roadranger

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:44 AM

Thought you might like that Chippy , I don't know who these guys are but they don't seem to understand that a championship is to find the best overall boat and crew and sometimes that means sailing courses you might not excell in.
If you just want to blast across the bay at max boat speed ( and we all love doing that , that's why we sail multis ) you don't need to take a week off work or drive 3000 ks to do it .
Sometimes it is nice to race reasonably seriously , OMR sorts out the different performances very well , but only over a variety of courses .
To claim that sailing around an island is more tactically challenging than a day of W/L racing is ridiculous.
Don't mean to be rude or offensive or cranky but think about it


#93 Frassld

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:40 AM

Is there any place in this regatta for at least one sternchaser start? Waaay back when we used to have one as part of SOMR, we used to get a few whingers ( usually the big spenders) saying it was alltoohard/unfair/demeaning, woteva,
But i noticed everybody had huge grins coming in afterwards. The final drag race to the line allowed everyone to have the experience of thinking they were beating Raw Nerve/ Wilparina, at least for a little while and it gave the slowboats a chance to get to the clubhouse before the beer and barbie ran out. I may be running on faulty logic but I can't see how staggered starts with elapsed times properly recorded is unfair in any way. Maybe some of us are just addicted to mass starts as a bloodsport.
Just Sayin'......

Perhaps you could have another starter here for the 2013 nat's from Victoria, a very innovative folding cat !!! V8

#94 Fuller

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:36 AM


Is there any place in this regatta for at least one sternchaser start? Waaay back when we used to have one as part of SOMR, we used to get a few whingers ( usually the big spenders) saying it was alltoohard/unfair/demeaning, woteva,
But i noticed everybody had huge grins coming in afterwards. The final drag race to the line allowed everyone to have the experience of thinking they were beating Raw Nerve/ Wilparina, at least for a little while and it gave the slowboats a chance to get to the clubhouse before the beer and barbie ran out. I may be running on faulty logic but I can't see how staggered starts with elapsed times properly recorded is unfair in any way. Maybe some of us are just addicted to mass starts as a bloodsport.
Just Sayin'......

Perhaps you could have another starter here for the 2013 nat's from Victoria, a very innovative folding cat !!! V8

In 2020 more like it.

#95 Eightball

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:56 AM

2013 IS the plan Shaun, but you know, can't rush these things. I would expect to be seriously 'barassed chasing you hotshots - state of the art design in 1995 probably won't cut it these days. However, it will be interesting to see how the rig shapes up with OMR, and if I can shed about 150 Kg off the boat somehow...

#96 janj70

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:03 PM

V8 , photos?

#97 Eightball

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:50 AM

Not just yet, in a few weeks time when we have got a bit of paint on it. We have started on the rig layup but might have to delay a little while, it is getting up to around 42+ in the shop at the moment - OK for the layup, but a bit rugged on the old builder. Still keen to get it on the water by mid year, even just to be able to combine the Launch Party with a Significant B'day, and head off North for a bit of a campaign/ Whitsun therapy.

#98 a_dowley

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:28 AM

What a perfect place to sail!

#99 Fuller

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:09 PM

2013 IS the plan Shaun, but you know, can't rush these things. I would expect to be seriously 'barassed chasing you hotshots - state of the art design in 1995 probably won't cut it these days. However, it will be interesting to see how the rig shapes up with OMR, and if I can shed about 150 Kg off the boat somehow...

Snooping around the yard today, Half way through what year? Still a bit to go odd ball!! opps 8 ball.

#100 Indian Chief

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:48 AM

Notice of race and entry is up on the website. We have entered to kick off the Multihulls.

http://www.airliebeachraceweek.com.au/






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