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Hutch out?!1??


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#1 Team America!

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:17 AM

Just posted on Twitter

#2 ozchrisb

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

http://www.americasc...l1aEZYU.twitter

#3 Indio

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:20 AM

Nice scoop. Simon would be slapping himself on the back and butt cheeks when he sees this.

#4 Hastings

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:33 AM

So there is the difference.

A team of all-stars.

Or an all-star team.

Where people have job security.

Even now, it is not clear whether Loick or Nathan will be on the handlebars.

I do not see this as "Terry" thing.

More a manifestation of some kind of malaise in AR.

#5 Tom

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:33 AM

I was surprised no one knew about this earlier. I heard about today during lunch. I also heard they got rid of a few others too.

#6 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:39 AM

Any link with last problems ? knifes must have been flying...

#7 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:42 AM

I was surprised no one knew about this earlier. I heard about today during lunch. I also heard they got rid of a few others too.

Who is missing ?
http://artemis-racing.americascup.com/team

#8 PeterHuston

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:55 AM

Probably best news T Hutch could get. No doubt he had a big buy out clause in his contract. Now he doesn't have to deal with a broken boat and will not be blamed when the Kiwi's kick their ass. Because the Kiwi's simply can not be beaten. Just ask the Kiwi Religious Right here.

#9 Monster Mash

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:01 AM


I was surprised no one knew about this earlier. I heard about today during lunch. I also heard they got rid of a few others too.

Who is missing ?
http://artemis-racin...cascup.com/team


Now maybe they can replace the sticky back stickers on their left sleeves with something a little more permanent. :)

#10 usa7776

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:00 AM

Sorry to hear this, for Terry.

#11 bwana

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:17 AM

In hindsight, this seems like it was inevitable, given the acquisition of Peyron, et al. But didn't Hutch pretty much own the French on the water?

#12 PeterHuston

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:10 AM

What happens now with Energy? Is that still Loick's team? Does he still helm?

#13 heavyair

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:15 AM

Last time I checked the AC is won with match racing . . . and the brain trust at Artemis, aka Cayard, just lost their best asset. Nice job on that one! Nothing like being in total disarray with their boat and then disrupting the team. I have never heard anything but good things about Hutch working with the team. At the same time it has been painful to watch Cayard's ego get more and more in the way of a successful program.

#14 SimonN

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:31 AM

I certainly don't see this as disarray as some people seem to think it is. With Loick coming on board, they had their safe, experienced pair of hands. With Nathan, they have their "young gun" whohas all the ability and huge potential. Where does Hutch fit in? He doesn't bring either the experience of Loick or the potential of Nathan. Plus, whenever there has been big breeze, he has looked decidedly dodgy on the helm while Nathan has shown himslef to be a natural. Hutch's natural instincts haven't adapted to multis and they simply cannot afford to do an Oracle. And to date, Nathan hasn't been given the opportunity to helm at all.

I think the key to this is Ian Percy. As has been reported elsewhere, it seems he has been taking more and more of a role in driving the sailing program and that the crew has gravitated towards him for leadership. I was never convinced by the dynamic between Perc and Hutch, but I can see Perc and Nathan working really well, while I suspect that Perc has enough respect for Loick if Nathan doesn't get up to grade.

Finally, they will have had the chance to see Hutch at the helm of the AC72 and one has to suspect they didn't like what they saw. Hutch may be the best match racer they have at the moment, but to finish first, first they have to finish and of the 3 potential helms, Hutch was the one I would have had least confidence in.

To me, this is a very decisive move and is anything but a team in disarray. Hutch was given every chance to show himself as a multihull sailor and to build the team around him and it seems pretty clear he was, at best, struggling with both. They also gave him the chance to helm the AC72. I guess if it had been ETNZ, their "loyalty" would have meant they went forward with a sub standard helm while if it was OR, he would have been parked in another role and simply be paid lost of money for nothing. All told, I see this as a good move at the right time and I expect the team to be significantly stronger for it.

#15 RCH

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:57 AM

Ok people. Here is the scoop. This is a power play by Paul Cayard. The guy is trying to justify his large paycheck. Bottom line is the guy f'ed up with a more conservative approach to the design and his lack of knowledge of how to race in the modern era. Paul was brought in and realized he was over his head. Panic ensued and he had to make some changes to make him look like "the man."

Louik Peyron and Ian Percy are mac daddies who are awesome AND they also work REALLY well with TH. Percy's communications with Terry is fantastic and Louik is the person who is the sage amongst the group who everyone could learn from.

BOTTOM LINE: This is Paul Cayard being a complete DICK. He got called out from the man who writes the checks in Sweden and needed a scapegoat.

Terry is taking the fall for a poorly managed campaign and Cayard cannot escape this. TH will prevail like he always has. Cayard will burn in effigy for this.

PS - Simon N - Respectfully - You have no idea what you are talking about.

#16 SimonN

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:13 AM

Ok people. Here is the scoop. This is a power play by Paul Cayard. The guy is trying to justify his large paycheck. Bottom line is the guy f'ed up with a more conservative approach to the design and his lack of knowledge of how to race in the modern era. Paul was brought in and realized he was over his head. Panic ensued and he had to make some changes to make him look like "the man."

Louik Peyron and Ian Percy are mac daddies who are awesome AND they also work REALLY well with TH. Percy's communications with Terry is fantastic and Louik is the person who is the sage amongst the group who everyone could learn from.

BOTTOM LINE: This is Paul Cayard being a complete DICK. He got called out from the man who writes the checks in Sweden and needed a scapegoat.

Terry is taking the fall for a poorly managed campaign and Cayard cannot escape this. TH will prevail like he always has. Cayard will burn in effigy for this.

PS - Simon N - Respectfully - You have no idea what you are talking about.

With respect to you, you have no idea what you are talking about. This has been coming for ages and is nothing about PC finding a scapegoat. If you think that Perc and Hutch worked well, you really don't know what you are talking about.

#17 RCH

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:16 AM

I stand by my comments. If you think PC is managing this well, you are kidding yourself. NZ is going to own this cup.

PS - Glad to see they posted this press release on a Friday night. Guessing "old school" Cayard consulted with an "old school" media advisor who advised that is when they should try to push this under the rug. Guess they were REALLY excited about this change they pushed it to a Friday afternoon?

#18 Mambo Kings

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:24 AM

I think you are all missing the "behind the scene" role that Ian Munslow is playing here.

#19 sailing man

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:54 AM

I stand by my comments. If you think PC is managing this well, you are kidding yourself. NZ is going to own this cup.

PS - Glad to see they posted this press release on a Friday night. Guessing "old school" Cayard consulted with an "old school" media advisor who advised that is when they should try to push this under the rug. Guess they were REALLY excited about this change they pushed it to a Friday afternoon?

My sources are confirming what you have said. Crazy that this is the way he wanted to prove to his money guy that he is doing all he can to win. The boat from what I hear is not what they expected and they are concerned they will not be able to match up with ETNZ.
My source also stated to me that they are looking at this as they are no longer looking at this from a Match Racing stand point but a Multihull speed race so this would fit Nathan better vs Terry.
They don't believe there will be a lot of tacks or gybes but more working one side of course as quickly as possible which is where Percy comes in.
So in conclusion, they have a "plan" and even though I personally don't agree with it, they are working more on trying to race this boat in way to cover up the short comings.
I will report back when I hear more!

#20 jaysper

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:54 AM

Regardless of the reasons for doing this, this is what is called "Teamicide" (PeopleWare - by Lister & DeMarco).
If the team is in such a state that this is necessary, then they are in serious serious trouble.

The devastating effect that this will have on the "jell" of the team is far worse than OR capsizing their boat.
In fact, OR's team may well have been galvanised by that event since it could renewed and revitalised their shared sense of purpose.

#21 Dixie

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:56 AM

I am personally sad to see him go. He was one of the few Americans on any of the teams and has the sort of personality that could have made the AC competitions more dramatic, which is what we need. I thought (without inside knowledge) Loick was a good talent land grab similar to OR's getting BA. I will miss him on the team. I was rooting for him.

So will OR pick him up or did AR option him for the remainder of this series? I'd love to see him hire on with another team.

#22 Terry Hollis

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:12 AM

I am personally sad to see him go. He was one of the few Americans on any of the teams and has the sort of personality that could have made the AC competitions more dramatic, which is what we need. I thought (without inside knowledge) Loick was a good talent land grab similar to OR's getting BA. I will miss him on the team. I was rooting for him.

So will OR pick him up or did AR option him for the remainder of this series? I'd love to see him hire on with another team.

You raise an interesting point .. When Coutts was fired from Alinghi the protocol prevented any other team from employing him for that AC .. Does the same protocol apply this time around ??

#23 jaysper

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:24 AM


I am personally sad to see him go. He was one of the few Americans on any of the teams and has the sort of personality that could have made the AC competitions more dramatic, which is what we need. I thought (without inside knowledge) Loick was a good talent land grab similar to OR's getting BA. I will miss him on the team. I was rooting for him.

So will OR pick him up or did AR option him for the remainder of this series? I'd love to see him hire on with another team.

You raise an interesting point .. When Coutts was fired from Alinghi the protocol prevented any other team from employing him for that AC .. Does the same protocol apply this time around ??


I hope not, that was a really shitty trick they pulled on Russell.

#24 sunseeker

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:27 AM

I am personally sad to see him go. He was one of the few Americans on any of the teams and has the sort of personality that could have made the AC competitions more dramatic, which is what we need. I thought (without inside knowledge) Loick was a good talent land grab similar to OR's getting BA. I will miss him on the team. I was rooting for him.

So will OR pick him up or did AR option him for the remainder of this series? I'd love to see him hire on with another team.


Won't happen. No one is switching teams mid-stream, at least not where a 72 is involved. Guys going from one 45 to another is one thing. No way cayard let's hutch go work for another team. It's just smart business to protect what you are working on. Hutch will walk away with a good sized paycheck.

#25 Tony-F18

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:34 AM

I wonder if TH could somehow be responsible for their current AC72 design or maybe push to go into the direction they did?
Wasn't he a designer on a previous campaign?

#26 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:47 AM

As in any company I see 2 reasons for TH sacking, competence or attitude. It is commonly admitted in business that, most of the time, one is hired for competence and sacked for attitude.

#27 NZPogue

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:04 AM

Intersting how some of you are commenting that you cant see how AR can possibly compete wih ETNZ.... To be honest, i cant see how they will even be able to compete with Luna Rossa never mind ETNZ!

#28 Broseidon

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:20 AM


I am personally sad to see him go. He was one of the few Americans on any of the teams and has the sort of personality that could have made the AC competitions more dramatic, which is what we need. I thought (without inside knowledge) Loick was a good talent land grab similar to OR's getting BA. I will miss him on the team. I was rooting for him.

So will OR pick him up or did AR option him for the remainder of this series? I'd love to see him hire on with another team.


Won't happen. No one is switching teams mid-stream, at least not where a 72 is involved. Guys going from one 45 to another is one thing. No way cayard let's hutch go work for another team. It's just smart business to protect what you are working on. Hutch will walk away with a good sized paycheck.


Agreed he will walk away with a nice severance package but there is no way he's going to another team. Artemis cant afford for him to go to another team, he knows to much about there program and their design and any r&d they are currently doing. he got a nice amount of money to keep his mouth shut and to sit this one out.

#29 andyg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:50 AM

Given the size of Artemis' budget and the slow rate of progress in the AC72 I'm not surprised heads have rolled.

My fear is that Hutchinson's dismissal may be an attempt by Cayard to mask his own administrative and organisational failings.

If that's the case, it's unlikely crew changes are going to prove any advantage as Artemis chase the superior ETNZ.

#30 dogwatch

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:33 AM

My source also stated to me that they are looking at this as they are no longer looking at this from a Match Racing stand point but a Multihull speed race so this would fit Nathan better vs Terry.
They don't believe there will be a lot of tacks or gybes but more working one side of course as quickly as possible which is where Percy comes in.


"They" are very likely correct. The divergence of design approaches we are seeing and the cost of excess manoeuvres means match racing skills are unlikely to be key. It's going to be about going as fast as possible while holding the boat together for the duration of the regatta. These are skiff-sailor skills.

Sorry but to anyone who has seen video of TH hyperventilating during windy AC45 races, this was inevitable.

#31 Indio

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:49 AM


I am personally sad to see him go. He was one of the few Americans on any of the teams and has the sort of personality that could have made the AC competitions more dramatic, which is what we need. I thought (without inside knowledge) Loick was a good talent land grab similar to OR's getting BA. I will miss him on the team. I was rooting for him.

So will OR pick him up or did AR option him for the remainder of this series? I'd love to see him hire on with another team.


Won't happen. No one is switching teams mid-stream, at least not where a 72 is involved. Guys going from one 45 to another is one thing. No way cayard let's hutch go work for another team. It's just smart business to protect what you are working on. Hutch will walk away with a good sized paycheck.


The Protocol restriction of crew moving from one team to another does not apply to Hutch. He can join another team if he wants, unless he has a private restraint agreement with Artemis.

#32 dogwatch

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:57 AM

The Protocol restriction of crew moving from one team to another does not apply to Hutch. He can join another team if he wants, unless he has a private restraint agreement with Artemis.


I'd be amazed if he didn't.

Back in "real life", a client is trying to slap a restriction on working for competitors on me, which I've refused to sign. It's extremely common.

#33 Indio

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:07 AM


The Protocol restriction of crew moving from one team to another does not apply to Hutch. He can join another team if he wants, unless he has a private restraint agreement with Artemis.


I'd be amazed if he didn't.

Back in "real life", a client is trying to slap a restriction on working for competitors on me, which I've refused to sign. It's extremely common.

And also difficult to enforce, where one's means of earning a living is being restrained. At least in our part of the planet.

#34 MSA

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:11 AM

He must be a bit bitter... Changed his Facebook cover photo to a Quantum Racing Pic as soon as Pierre did his Press Release/article.. But alas now it is gone..

Throwing it out there.. maybe back on the 52 circuit?

#35 dogwatch

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:14 AM



The Protocol restriction of crew moving from one team to another does not apply to Hutch. He can join another team if he wants, unless he has a private restraint agreement with Artemis.


I'd be amazed if he didn't.

Back in "real life", a client is trying to slap a restriction on working for competitors on me, which I've refused to sign. It's extremely common.

And also difficult to enforce, where one's means of earning a living is being restrained. At least in our part of the planet.


I've looked into that. It's a grey area. A restriction that's too general is unenforceable but one that's fairly tightly drawn may be valid. I'm just refusing to sign and will walk away from the business if need be. I doubt it will come to that.

#36 Indio

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:20 AM




The Protocol restriction of crew moving from one team to another does not apply to Hutch. He can join another team if he wants, unless he has a private restraint agreement with Artemis.


I'd be amazed if he didn't.

Back in "real life", a client is trying to slap a restriction on working for competitors on me, which I've refused to sign. It's extremely common.

And also difficult to enforce, where one's means of earning a living is being restrained. At least in our part of the planet.


I've looked into that. It's a grey area. A restriction that's too general is unenforceable but one that's fairly tightly drawn may be valid. I'm just refusing to sign and will walk away from the business if need be. I doubt it will come to that.

If they want an exclusivity with you, make them pay for the privilege and the opportunity cost.

#37 Big Show

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:23 PM

I certainly don't see this as disarray as some people seem to think it is. With Loick coming on board, they had their safe, experienced pair of hands. With Nathan, they have their "young gun" whohas all the ability and huge potential. Where does Hutch fit in? He doesn't bring either the experience of Loick or the potential of Nathan. Plus, whenever there has been big breeze, he has looked decidedly dodgy on the helm while Nathan has shown himslef to be a natural. Hutch's natural instincts haven't adapted to multis and they simply cannot afford to do an Oracle. And to date, Nathan hasn't been given the opportunity to helm at all.

I think the key to this is Ian Percy. As has been reported elsewhere, it seems he has been taking more and more of a role in driving the sailing program and that the crew has gravitated towards him for leadership. I was never convinced by the dynamic between Perc and Hutch, but I can see Perc and Nathan working really well, while I suspect that Perc has enough respect for Loick if Nathan doesn't get up to grade.

Finally, they will have had the chance to see Hutch at the helm of the AC72 and one has to suspect they didn't like what they saw. Hutch may be the best match racer they have at the moment, but to finish first, first they have to finish and of the 3 potential helms, Hutch was the one I would have had least confidence in.

To me, this is a very decisive move and is anything but a team in disarray. Hutch was given every chance to show himself as a multihull sailor and to build the team around him and it seems pretty clear he was, at best, struggling with both. They also gave him the chance to helm the AC72. I guess if it had been ETNZ, their "loyalty" would have meant they went forward with a sub standard helm while if it was OR, he would have been parked in another role and simply be paid lost of money for nothing. All told, I see this as a good move at the right time and I expect the team to be significantly stronger for it.


Do you actually believe the stuff you write? You consistently speak in absolutes and, frankly, it's a bad look.

Perhaps people won't hear you from the muffle of NO's dick in your mouth.

Keep it up though. It's good humour.

#38 SimonN

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:51 PM


I certainly don't see this as disarray as some people seem to think it is. With Loick coming on board, they had their safe, experienced pair of hands. With Nathan, they have their "young gun" whohas all the ability and huge potential. Where does Hutch fit in? He doesn't bring either the experience of Loick or the potential of Nathan. Plus, whenever there has been big breeze, he has looked decidedly dodgy on the helm while Nathan has shown himslef to be a natural. Hutch's natural instincts haven't adapted to multis and they simply cannot afford to do an Oracle. And to date, Nathan hasn't been given the opportunity to helm at all.

I think the key to this is Ian Percy. As has been reported elsewhere, it seems he has been taking more and more of a role in driving the sailing program and that the crew has gravitated towards him for leadership. I was never convinced by the dynamic between Perc and Hutch, but I can see Perc and Nathan working really well, while I suspect that Perc has enough respect for Loick if Nathan doesn't get up to grade.

Finally, they will have had the chance to see Hutch at the helm of the AC72 and one has to suspect they didn't like what they saw. Hutch may be the best match racer they have at the moment, but to finish first, first they have to finish and of the 3 potential helms, Hutch was the one I would have had least confidence in.

To me, this is a very decisive move and is anything but a team in disarray. Hutch was given every chance to show himself as a multihull sailor and to build the team around him and it seems pretty clear he was, at best, struggling with both. They also gave him the chance to helm the AC72. I guess if it had been ETNZ, their "loyalty" would have meant they went forward with a sub standard helm while if it was OR, he would have been parked in another role and simply be paid lost of money for nothing. All told, I see this as a good move at the right time and I expect the team to be significantly stronger for it.


Do you actually believe the stuff you write? You consistently speak in absolutes and, frankly, it's a bad look.

Perhaps people won't hear you from the muffle of NO's dick in your mouth.

Keep it up though. It's good humour.

It's actually nothing to do with Nathan and everything to do with the simple fact that TH has not adapted to multihull sailing. If you think he has, then you know fuck all about it. I know 4 AR team members and I have discussed TH's helming with all of them. Some were more descrete than others, but none of them have made any attempt to disagree or hide the fact that TH was far from a safe pair of hands. The evidence has been there for everybody to see. And I have been posting this on here for the last year. What has surprised me is that he was even allowed to helm the 72. It doesn't matter how good you are at winning races, if you cannot get the boat round the track safely, you shouldn't be anywhere near an AC72.

#39 heavyair

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

With all the Artemis management and design screw ups, not to mention the Oracle setback when they pushed their 72 too far, it seems like Hutch demonstrated some professionalism by being cautious in their early days on the water. It was clearly not his fault the boat broke during a tow test. Seriously, structural failure like that during a tow test?

And for those with short term memory loss, here's a clip that shows Hutch getting it done on the water in the heat of the moment . . .



#40 SimonN

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:25 PM

Reading your posts again, heavyair, are you by any chance Terry Hutchison? ;)

#41 heavyair

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

Not quite, but I was wondering whether you are officially Cayard's apologist?

#42 Big Show

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:36 PM

All I know is I can't make out a thing he says with all the dick in his mouth.

#43 Tony-F18

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:44 PM

Not quite, but I was wondering whether you are officially Cayard's apologist?

Who said this was PC's decision?
Could well have been the new Sailing Director's call.

I don't see the problem with it anyway, the best people should be on the job.


#44 boomer

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

Ok people. Here is the scoop. This is a power play by Paul Cayard. The guy is trying to justify his large paycheck. Bottom line is the guy f'ed up with a more conservative approach to the design and his lack of knowledge of how to race in the modern era. Paul was brought in and realized he was over his head. Panic ensued and he had to make some changes to make him look like "the man."

Louik Peyron and Ian Percy are mac daddies who are awesome AND they also work REALLY well with TH. Percy's communications with Terry is fantastic and Louik is the person who is the sage amongst the group who everyone could learn from.

BOTTOM LINE: This is Paul Cayard being a complete DICK. He got called out from the man who writes the checks in Sweden and needed a scapegoat.

Terry is taking the fall for a poorly managed campaign and Cayard cannot escape this. TH will prevail like he always has. Cayard will burn in effigy for this.

PS - Simon N - Respectfully - You have no idea what you are talking about.


This sounds very likely.

#45 fastyacht

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:18 PM

Simon, you embarrass yourself here. TH not only "figured out" how to sail catamarans, he won the AC45 series.

This is a little like saying something like, "Al Unser doesn't know how to drive a car."

"Getting safely around the track." What, like JS? Like RC? Come on dude, I don't see TH looking like a squirrel out there.

Easy to say this shit. But how do you substantiate it?

#46 jhc

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:17 PM

Read the release, it seems that artemis needs to develop a competitive boat, and th was not the guy to lead that effort on the water. These guys will not ever get to the match racing part of the ac without better (boat0 development skills. The first effort is a mistake, not unlike 1772. The second boat will need to be developed from scratch. Terry would be sitting on the sidelines 'till they can come up with a competitive platform, now he can move on to something with a chance of success.
Match racing helmsmen are a dime a dozen, ac boats cost about 100 million each, whether they are competitive, or thrown away pieces of junk. Artemis needs to put the cart before the horse. Without a competitive boat, doesn't matter who is at the helm.
Same goes for the defender.

#47 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:55 PM

Posted yet? Includes this and other quotes
http://www.americasc...-hutchinson-out
--
Iain Percy, a double gold medalist for Great Britain, has come to the team off the back of a silver medal performance at the Olympic Games this summer and is already having an impact on team dynamics according to Cayard.

“He’s a winner and he’s quickly become the center of gravity of the crew. He’s a natural leader; he’s very charismatic. He’s easy going, but has the intensity needed to win.
--

#48 sailing man

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

Read the release, it seems that artemis needs to develop a competitive boat, and th was not the guy to lead that effort on the water. These guys will not ever get to the match racing part of the ac without better (boat0 development skills. The first effort is a mistake, not unlike 1772. The second boat will need to be developed from scratch. Terry would be sitting on the sidelines 'till they can come up with a competitive platform, now he can move on to something with a chance of success.
Match racing helmsmen are a dime a dozen, ac boats cost about 100 million each, whether they are competitive, or thrown away pieces of junk. Artemis needs to put the cart before the horse. Without a competitive boat, doesn't matter who is at the helm.
Same goes for the defender.

Got agree, my opinion here is they realized at a good point they were not going to win the LV so obviously they werent going to win the Cup. So they feel like they needed to change their strategy.
Nothing against the helms they have now, but they really lost out when they didn't grab Franck Cammas when he was available.
If I were in Artemis position, you need to find some way to make the races really messy and difficult for ETNZ because ETNZ has proven with their practice boat to be way to fast. So you got to make ETNZ think and hold back so you have a chance to win a race. Lunna Rossa will be the 3rd seed by default in this series.
If you are putting hundreds of millions into this program, and you only have to beat 2 teams but you can't even do that, I would be depressed too.
So the question becomes, is it worth all the money they are putting into this?

#49 sunseeker

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

Posted yet? Includes this and other quotes
http://www.americascup.com/en/news/8/teams/10441/change-at-artemis-racing-percy-peyron-and-outteridge-in-hutchinson-out
--
Iain Percy, a double gold medalist for Great Britain, has come to the team off the back of a silver medal performance at the Olympic Games this summer and is already having an impact on team dynamics according to Cayard.

Hes a winner and hes quickly become the center of gravity of the crew. Hes a natural leader; hes very charismatic. Hes easy going, but has the intensity needed to win.
--


Dalton has to be laughing his ass off over this. Sailing team manager, WTF does that mean in the context of boat development?

The focus should be on boat development first. Percy and Otteridge are obviously good small boat sailors, but what do either of them really know about putting a big complicated multihull together. The guy for the job is Peyron he should be the central focus of this team.

#50 sailing man

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:30 PM


Posted yet? Includes this and other quotes
http://www.americasc...-hutchinson-out
--
Iain Percy, a double gold medalist for Great Britain, has come to the team off the back of a silver medal performance at the Olympic Games this summer and is already having an impact on team dynamics according to Cayard.

"He's a winner and he's quickly become the center of gravity of the crew. He's a natural leader; he's very charismatic. He's easy going, but has the intensity needed to win.
--


Dalton has to be laughing his ass off over this. Sailing team manager, WTF does that mean in the context of boat development?

The focus should be on boat development first. Percy and Otteridge are obviously good small boat sailors, but what do either of them really know about putting a big complicated multihull together. The guy for the job is Peyron he should be the central focus of this team.

Sounds like a disfunctionally team!
You are right, there is no proof Nathan or Percy can lead this team or can't. But it one of those things were the next generation needs to step up even if they aren't as good as the last.
I just don't like how it sounds this went down.

#51 DIMITRIS

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:06 PM

The only reason for somfucked eone to like Artemis was Mr TH and I am really gutted to read such news!(why always the good and humble guys are fucked up by such as..oles I do not understand that thing at all...). Really nice pick on the person chosen as an escape goat. Artemis now has absolutely no chance (if that team had one after such major fuck ups) especially if Percy will have a major and influential involvement- he is always failing to deliver either from early stages or at the very last moment, have a look at the results of +39 at Valencia's AC or at the very last Olympic games! On the other hand I really hope that Loick Peyron which he is in a class of its own to step up to the stupidity of Mr Cayard..... and I really mean that!!!!!! I can not coment any more on really awfully wrong way decision by such a mediocore and short sighted person!! :angry:

#52 Hastings

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:29 PM

OR need a few more yanks on the team!

Hire Hutch!

#53 MFMG

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

I feel bad for Hutch, but this is like making a split in a match race. AR is way behind and they have to attempt a radically new course. Who knows why Hutch's head was chosen over Cayard's, but acquiring Loick and Outteridge isn't a bad thing.

That being said, I'll miss seeing TH out there. It's not like he's going to be sitting on his ass though. A guy like him will be back at the helm soon enough.

I'm not sure who's theory is right in this thread, but this has been a very interesting read thus far.

#54 MUNUMANA!!!

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:57 PM

Dimitris you are so wrong..

Think you must have been watching a different olympics then. IP totally dominated the Star Class, probably the most competitive fleet in the Olympics and only lost the gold due to an unlucky lull on the final run to the finish and the stupid double points medal race format. You don't consistently beat sailors of that calibre unless you really have, which IP does.

The factor is that TH wasn't up to the job. He couldn't sail the boat, the crew had no confidence in him and he wasn't a good team player (you don't scream at your crew when you fucked up on the lay line call).

I would say that AR now have a set up that is a good as any and I think you will see a much stronger AR over the next few months.

As to the ETNZ comparison I haven't seen anything yet to show that their boat is fast. Yes, it can foil, yes it is good in a breeze - is it fast enough ? No one knows but to my eye it doesn't look as quick as OR or AR, particularly upwind.

#55 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

I have to think that this has been an issue over the past few weeks, and likely part of the reason we have not seen the AR 72 on the water. My guess is they have been trying to iron out an agreement with TH where he will not go on with another team and spill beans about what is going on with AR. More important to get that all worked out then getting THIS AR72 time on the water, at this time.

I would have to agree, Loick is the natural guy to be working on the design and generally lead the team on the water. Seems everything you hear about him as an on-boat leader is great, with guys loving to work for him. Obviously, his time driving a big multi is better than anyone in the world, and improvement in performance on Cheesezilla was amazing when he was on the helm. Not sure Loick is interested in leading AR, though, with his likely preferred role that as a coach and helm (temporary, likely, getting NO up to his best).

As for TH, maybe get some veneers on his teeth and into the shaded broadcast booth? No screaming allowed?

#56 Mikie

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

As much as I liked seeing Hutch in the limelight and get his due, AR seems so far off pace with their breakdown and "hull in" sailing the 72 that I can't see them catching up either. ETNZ & LR are miles ahead, OR will likely catchup with hull 2, as Jimmy and Dirk I think are as good a paring as exists...

My bigger fear is that the AC winner is NOT going to be the fastest or best team, but the one that doesn't break or flip - After watching OR flip / destroy their 72 with what would have been a few hour setback of the 45 - the winner may not be the best...out surviving the frontrunners might be AR only strategy now...In NASCAR it would be Kevin Harvick sweeping in for a victory after the BIG ONE on the last lap? That won't get AR to the finals though, unless LR and ETNZ take each other out in semis?

It's a fucked up cup cycle...Hutch will come out on top of whatever he lands next...

#57 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

OR need a few more yanks on the team!

Hire Hutch!


As a tactician, he has some value. But not sure if he is a liability, physically. But I think it is a moot point. I'm sure he got a healthy chunk of change to sit out AC34.

#58 pominfrance

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:12 PM

I have to think that this has been an issue over the past few weeks, and likely part of the reason we have not seen the AR 72 on the water. My guess is they have been trying to iron out an agreement with TH where he will not go on with another team and spill beans about what is going on with AR. More important to get that all worked out then getting THIS AR72 time on the water, at this time.

I would have to agree, Loick is the natural guy to be working on the design and generally lead the team on the water. Seems everything you hear about him as an on-boat leader is great, with guys loving to work for him. Obviously, his time driving a big multi is better than anyone in the world, and improvement in performance on Cheesezilla was amazing when he was on the helm. Not sure Loick is interested in leading AR, though, with his likely preferred role that as a coach and helm (temporary, likely, getting NO up to his best).

As for TH, maybe get some veneers on his teeth and into the shaded broadcast booth? No screaming allowed?


Do you think that they have not been sailing the 72 because they are hashing a non-compete with TH? Seriously?

#59 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:18 PM


I have to think that this has been an issue over the past few weeks, and likely part of the reason we have not seen the AR 72 on the water. My guess is they have been trying to iron out an agreement with TH where he will not go on with another team and spill beans about what is going on with AR. More important to get that all worked out then getting THIS AR72 time on the water, at this time.

I would have to agree, Loick is the natural guy to be working on the design and generally lead the team on the water. Seems everything you hear about him as an on-boat leader is great, with guys loving to work for him. Obviously, his time driving a big multi is better than anyone in the world, and improvement in performance on Cheesezilla was amazing when he was on the helm. Not sure Loick is interested in leading AR, though, with his likely preferred role that as a coach and helm (temporary, likely, getting NO up to his best).

As for TH, maybe get some veneers on his teeth and into the shaded broadcast booth? No screaming allowed?


Do you think that they have not been sailing the 72 because they are hashing a non-compete with TH? Seriously?


For the past few days, yes, I believe trying to work something out with TH may have kept them off the water. It has not sounded as though the team has been around the dock, waiting to see if the whether opens up an opportunity to get out on the water. It has sounded like everyone was told to go home as they were just not going to be going out, even if conditions improved. The only reason I see this being the case, given that there is no chance in hell they are going to meet their maximum days on the water, is if something major is going on with management. Even if they were planning on making major changes with the boat, it would still seem they could be learning things with time on the water with the boat, as is, or even with their AC45s.

Obviously, any one of us, or all of us, could be way wrong with any of this conjecture. It just seems as though there must be something major behind not even making any effort to get even a little time on the water. Yes, the conditions have not been great, but usually you can find some windows of opportunity, even if you don't get a full day out on the water. But it seems as there has been no interest to take advantage of a window.

#60 Monster Mash

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:25 PM



I have to think that this has been an issue over the past few weeks, and likely part of the reason we have not seen the AR 72 on the water. My guess is they have been trying to iron out an agreement with TH where he will not go on with another team and spill beans about what is going on with AR. More important to get that all worked out then getting THIS AR72 time on the water, at this time.

I would have to agree, Loick is the natural guy to be working on the design and generally lead the team on the water. Seems everything you hear about him as an on-boat leader is great, with guys loving to work for him. Obviously, his time driving a big multi is better than anyone in the world, and improvement in performance on Cheesezilla was amazing when he was on the helm. Not sure Loick is interested in leading AR, though, with his likely preferred role that as a coach and helm (temporary, likely, getting NO up to his best).

As for TH, maybe get some veneers on his teeth and into the shaded broadcast booth? No screaming allowed?


Do you think that they have not been sailing the 72 because they are hashing a non-compete with TH? Seriously?


For the past few days, yes, I believe trying to work something out with TH may have kept them off the water. It has not sounded as though the team has been around the dock, waiting to see if the whether opens up an opportunity to get out on the water. It has sounded like everyone was told to go home as they were just not going to be going out, even if conditions improved. The only reason I see this being the case, given that there is no chance in hell they are going to meet their maximum days on the water, is if something major is going on with management. Even if they were planning on making major changes with the boat, it would still seem they could be learning things with time on the water with the boat, as is, or even with their AC45s.

Obviously, any one of us, or all of us, could be way wrong with any of this conjecture. It just seems as though there must be something major behind not even making any effort to get even a little time on the water. Yes, the conditions have not been great, but usually you can find some windows of opportunity, even if you don't get a full day out on the water. But it seems as there has been no interest to take advantage of a window.


Thanksgiving weekend was one of the better weekends for sailing.
Friends were out on the water both days. Clear and 8-10kts in South bay

#61 pominfrance

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:25 PM

GG Fair enough.
I don't care which teams wins but as an outside observer, not a kiwi etc, re: Peter Huston, it is so hard to come back from a setback like OR have had. They are going to have to pull the rabbit of all rabbits out of their asses to now win this AC. TNZ and LR are a long way ahead and time is running out.
PS, while we are on the rumour mill... now that he has no boat to sail.. BA to LR? :-)

#62 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:25 PM

So, is "Sailing Team Director" the same as "Skipper"? Or is this a non-"skippered" team, or is it a see who rises up to be skipper kind of situation?

#63 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:26 PM

PC says on the AC article the no-sailing has been weather-related.

SF had two big storms come through this week, right on the heels of the Thanksgiving long weekend. I think a third is expected soon?

#64 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

GG Fair enough.
I don't care which teams wins but as an outside observer, not a kiwi etc, re: Peter Huston, it is so hard to come back from a setback like OR have had. They are going to have to pull the rabbit of all rabbits out of their asses to now win this AC. TNZ and LR are a long way ahead and time is running out.
PS, while we are on the rumour mill... now that he has no boat to sail.. BA to LR? :-)


Do we have any confirmation OR will not end up with 2 boats on the water? BA stays with OR, by the way.

#65 fallsailor

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:31 PM

I had a feeling something would have to give when Loick was brought in...

Best Wishes TH!

Hey...!

Maybe we will finally have a commentator for the rest of the ACWS, the LV and the AC that knows what the hell they are talking about! (Mitch, you were great! Didn't mean to lump you in there...)

fs

#66 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:35 PM

PC says on the AC article the no-sailing has been weather-related.

SF had two big storms come through this week, right on the heels of the Thanksgiving long weekend. I think a third is expected soon?


But given that they have no chance to meet the sailing-day limits, it would seem they would be kind of lingering around the docks on the days were there would be even a chance to get out there. These are the most important days, it would seem, trying to get all the information possible, as soon as possible, to get the information to help develop Boat-2.

#67 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:37 PM

I had a feeling something would have to give when Loick was brought in...

Best Wishes TH!

Hey...!

Maybe we will finally have a commentator for the rest of the ACWS, the LV and the AC that knows what the hell they are talking about! (Mitch, you were great! Didn't mean to lump you in there...)

fs


Like I said, above, put some veneers on his teeth, keep him in the shade so he does not need so damned much sun block, and keep him from screaming, maybe he would make a good American commentator.

I still really have to say I think Mitch & Jenny would make a great duo. Screw the "need" to have a "pro" in the booth.

#68 nav

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:41 PM

Commentator? ACWS - ok.

Foiling 72s? - he has no experience

GG^ I wonder if they have accepted that there is no data to be gained from their first 72 that will be relevant to their 2nd (if it's not already too late anyway). Crew training only?

#69 Indio

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:41 PM


I had a feeling something would have to give when Loick was brought in...

Best Wishes TH!

Hey...!

Maybe we will finally have a commentator for the rest of the ACWS, the LV and the AC that knows what the hell they are talking about! (Mitch, you were great! Didn't mean to lump you in there...)

fs


Like I said, above, put some veneers on his teeth, keep him in the shade so he does not need so damned much sun block, and keep him from screaming, maybe he would make a good American commentator.

I still really have to say I think Mitch & Jenny would make a great duo. Screw the "need" to have a "pro" in the booth.

Have some of you hotshots got mirrors in your households??

#70 nav

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:45 PM


Like I said, above, put some veneers on his teeth, keep him in the shade so he does not need so damned much sun block, and keep him from screaming, maybe he would make a good American commentator.

I still really have to say I think Mitch & Jenny would make a great duo. Screw the "need" to have a "pro" in the booth.

Have some of you hotshots got mirrors in your households??


Fake teeth :D , fake boobs - keep up or keep out!

#71 Rennmaus

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

Terry with fake boobs? Folks, really...!

#72 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:50 PM

Commentator? ACWS - ok.

Foiling 72s? - he has no experience

GG^ I wonder if they have accepted that there is no data to be gained from their first 72 that will be relevant to their 2nd (if it's not already too late anyway). Crew training only?


I would think, even just for crew training, it would be well worth it.

#73 ncs

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

Terry with fake boobs? Folks, really...!

Some of these posters need fake brains. They'd be better than the brains they were born with.

#74 Monster Mash

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:10 PM


Commentator? ACWS - ok.

Foiling 72s? - he has no experience

GG^ I wonder if they have accepted that there is no data to be gained from their first 72 that will be relevant to their 2nd (if it's not already too late anyway). Crew training only?


I would think, even just for crew training, it would be well worth it.


TH has no marketable skills to any of the other AC teams. Crew training? seriously?

#75 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:17 PM



Commentator? ACWS - ok.

Foiling 72s? - he has no experience

GG^ I wonder if they have accepted that there is no data to be gained from their first 72 that will be relevant to their 2nd (if it's not already too late anyway). Crew training only?


I would think, even just for crew training, it would be well worth it.


TH has no marketable skills to any of the other AC teams. Crew training? seriously?


My point was that getting the crew out on the AC72 would seem to have been worthwhile, even if the design team wasn't learning anything relevant for Boat-2, even if they were not going to get a full day on the water. Just pointing out that I would think if it weren't for the situation with TH, that it would have seemed worthwhile to get this AC72 out on the water, even if for short stints, given that they are not going to hit the sailing-day limits, even if just for crew training. To me, it would seem the AC45s have somewhat limited training comparability to the AC72s, given the nature of the boats, their size, their grinding stations, the number of guys, etc. While the guys may now be very good on the AC45s, it would seem that getting as much time on the bigger boats would have to be very helpful even if the 2nd Generation boats are to be significantly different.

#76 jaysper

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:45 PM

Given the size of Artemis' budget and the slow rate of progress in the AC72 I'm not surprised heads have rolled.

My fear is that Hutchinson's dismissal may be an attempt by Cayard to mask his own administrative and organisational failings.

If that's the case, it's unlikely crew changes are going to prove any advantage as Artemis chase the superior ETNZ.


PC has always been over paid and under performed.
I just have no frickin idea why these people keep hiring him.
He must REALLY talk a good game. But don't they look at his track record?

#77 jaysper

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

Commentator? ACWS - ok.

Foiling 72s? - he has no experience

GG^ I wonder if they have accepted that there is no data to be gained from their first 72 that will be relevant to their 2nd (if it's not already too late anyway). Crew training only?


They will probably get some useful data for their 2nd or 3rd wing and maybe some of the smaller elements of the boat (they sure as hell learnt something about the main beam), but yeah its pretty hard to see them having got a hell of a lot of usable data out of boat 1.

To be honest, I'm not sure that ETNZ got a HUGE amount out of boat 1 given that they couldn't do 2 boat testing.
Although they clearly got a lot more than the other two.

I for one am expecting canoe bodies that are significantly finer and perhaps reserve buoyancy like Artemis?
I think the really big volume on boat 1 was an "insurance policy" in case their assumptions around stability of foiling were incorrect.

#78 MoMP

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:53 PM

Can you imagine the network he has built in the AC game? It will not surprise me if all head sails for all four teams loose the blue and we see Qs in the corners. My understanding is all teams have sail designers in house and email the designs to North to be built. I'd like to see my Qs in the corners.

#79 bownig

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:05 PM

You all got it all wrong on this forum. T Hutch is entirely overrated and if you look at performance in the 45's and his comprehension of what it takes to jockey these bronco's you start to understand. For those who have sailed against him time after time Hutch was a good but not great skipper/helmsman and now it's just a plain fact - he's old for these machines. The Spithills of the world are young enough to make the move from monoturds to these rockets but Hutch has to do that plus fight the brain fade like in any other frickin' sport of people over 40. This is simply a typical franchise move to put the best athletes in place to try to win. Whether they will or not is still a huge question. Maybe their odds just went from 10% to 20 - to us that's still 1 out of 5 but to them their chances just doubled.

#80 RCH

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:10 PM

You all got it all wrong on this forum. T Hutch is entirely overrated and if you look at performance in the 45's and his comprehension of what it takes to jockey these bronco's you start to understand. For those who have sailed against him time after time Hutch was a good but not great skipper/helmsman and now it's just a plain fact - he's old for these machines. The Spithills of the world are young enough to make the move from monoturds to these rockets but Hutch has to do that plus fight the brain fade like in any other frickin' sport of people over 40. This is simply a typical franchise move to put the best athletes in place to try to win. Whether they will or not is still a huge question. Maybe their odds just went from 10% to 20 - to us that's still 1 out of 5 but to them their chances just doubled.


Hey newbie. You have no idea what you are talking about. He has won more World Championships then you have read about. TH's clan would walk on glass for him because he is a winner. Time to go back to your 4 ktsb.

#81 pominfrance

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

You all got it all wrong on this forum. T Hutch is entirely overrated and if you look at performance in the 45's and his comprehension of what it takes to jockey these bronco's you start to understand. For those who have sailed against him time after time Hutch was a good but not great skipper/helmsman and now it's just a plain fact - he's old for these machines. The Spithills of the world are young enough to make the move from monoturds to these rockets but Hutch has to do that plus fight the brain fade like in any other frickin' sport of people over 40. This is simply a typical franchise move to put the best athletes in place to try to win. Whether they will or not is still a huge question. Maybe their odds just went from 10% to 20 - to us that's still 1 out of 5 but to them their chances just doubled.


+1

but what do I know, i've just realised I have 0 warning points. what a loser

#82 gnasherdog

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:14 PM


PC has always been over paid and under performed.
I just have no frickin idea why these people keep hiring him.
He must REALLY talk a good game. But don't they look at his track record?






dont think TT looked at his track record, or he would have known better. PC says he is planning for the future with this "change", so maybe he should have hired the world Optimist champion, because by then TT might have worked it out for himself!

#83 DIMITRIS

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

Dimitris you are so wrong..

Think you must have been watching a different olympics then. IP totally dominated the Star Class, probably the most competitive fleet in the Olympics and only lost the gold due to an unlucky lull on the final run to the finish and the stupid double points medal race format. You don't consistently beat sailors of that calibre unless you really have, which IP does.

The factor is that TH wasn't up to the job. He couldn't sail the boat, the crew had no confidence in him and he wasn't a good team player (you don't scream at your crew when you fucked up on the lay line call).

I would say that AR now have a set up that is a good as any and I think you will see a much stronger AR over the next few months.

As to the ETNZ comparison I haven't seen anything yet to show that their boat is fast. Yes, it can foil, yes it is good in a breeze - is it fast enough ? No one knows but to my eye it doesn't look as quick as OR or AR, particularly upwind.


No my friend I was watching the same Olympics as you! All I am saying is that IP fails to deliver!!!!! Check +39 results in Valencia, Teams Origin in TP52 a couple years later (acted as tactitian- I have nothing against Ben's capabilities) and you will see what I mean.... do not take it personaly we do not have to have the same opinion. Bottom line we will see for real in a couple of months....

#84 pominfrance

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:18 PM

But +39 was a newbie team. Some good sailors pulled in from the Olympics at the last minute. Shit designer, shit management and sailors happy to have a nice time knowing they weren't going to win!!

#85 flojo

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

I wonder if TH could somehow be responsible for their current AC72 design or maybe push to go into the direction they did?
Wasn't he a designer on a previous campaign?

Intersting how some of you are commenting that you cant see how AR can possibly compete wih ETNZ.... To be honest, i cant see how they will even be able to compete with Luna Rossa never mind ETNZ!

AR2 is waaaaaay different from AR1.

#86 nav

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:38 PM

Do tell.....

#87 SimonN

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:54 PM

Simon, you embarrass yourself here. TH not only "figured out" how to sail catamarans, he won the AC45 series.

This is a little like saying something like, "Al Unser doesn't know how to drive a car."

"Getting safely around the track." What, like JS? Like RC? Come on dude, I don't see TH looking like a squirrel out there.

Easy to say this shit. But how do you substantiate it?

It's actually very simple to substantiate and this has been debated enough on this forum at length in the past. Footage of his helming has been posted and discussed. You simply have to look at how he steers to know he is steering like a monohull, keelboat sailor. It is particularly apparent at the top mark where, time and again, his steering and decision making has been all wrong. A couple of examples spring to mind, although please excuse the fact i really don't have time to go back and find the footage. One time, he came into the top mark with one of the LR boats (I think CD), about half a boatlength ahead. Just before they arrived at the mark, they got hit by a significant gust. TH totally ignored the gust and agressively steered round the mark, with zero sympathy for the boat and giving the crew no hope of dumping the wing or jib. They pitchpoled. The LR boat delayed their bear away, eased wing a jib, built a little speed and then did a beautiful bear away in total control. On another occasion, TH had to put a couple of short tacks in just before they reached the top mark, so they arrived at the mark in a fair amount of pressure. Instead of doing what any skiff or multihull sailor would do, which is to delay the full bear away until speed was reached, TH went for the full on bear away. The nose went down and they looked like they were going down ontil the rudders came out and this allowed the boat to spin round an dthey dropped back down, losing 2 places.

That's just 2 incident, but in every single event there has been numerous. And it's nopt just at the top mark. The course he sails through the gyvbe is wqrong, the way he heats it up, and his reaction to unexpected increases in pressure also looks wrong, which is why they have capsized on occasions you wouldn't have expected.

Even guys who do know what they are doing have had swims, but when you take things up to the scale of the AC72, it begins to get serious. JS is a very good multihull sailor, as is DB, and when you watch them, they do the right things. Yet they have still managed to flip the AC45's and JS even got it wrong in the AC72. If JS could get it wrong in the 72, then TH was a cert to flip. And back in January, when I was saailing A's against guys from Oracle and ETNZ, the topic of flipping AC72's was discussed and everybody had the same view, TH was the man most likely. I posted this back then. IMO, the only reason why TH wasn't the first to fip a 72 was because they wseren't on the water.

I think that TH is one of the most talented sailors in the world today but he isn't a multihull sailor. You can get away with it on the 45. You can't get away with it on the 72. The penalties of getting it wrong are simply too high.

#88 MUNUMANA!!!

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:57 PM


Dimitris you are so wrong..

Think you must have been watching a different olympics then. IP totally dominated the Star Class, probably the most competitive fleet in the Olympics and only lost the gold due to an unlucky lull on the final run to the finish and the stupid double points medal race format. You don't consistently beat sailors of that calibre unless you really have, which IP does.

The factor is that TH wasn't up to the job. He couldn't sail the boat, the crew had no confidence in him and he wasn't a good team player (you don't scream at your crew when you fucked up on the lay line call).

I would say that AR now have a set up that is a good as any and I think you will see a much stronger AR over the next few months.

As to the ETNZ comparison I haven't seen anything yet to show that their boat is fast. Yes, it can foil, yes it is good in a breeze - is it fast enough ? No one knows but to my eye it doesn't look as quick as OR or AR, particularly upwind.


No my friend I was watching the same Olympics as you! All I am saying is that IP fails to deliver!!!!! Check +39 results in Valencia, Teams Origin in TP52 a couple years later (acted as tactitian- I have nothing against Ben's capabilities) and you will see what I mean.... do not take it personaly we do not have to have the same opinion. Bottom line we will see for real in a couple of months....


Dimitri - I don't think you were watching the same olympics. I don't call scoring 3 x 1sts, 4 x 2nd's, a 3rd and a 4th but then having to carry 16 points from a very unlucky medal race to lose the Gold by just 2 points 'failing to deliver".

The +39 campaign had absolutely no chance whatsoever because of a slow boat and actually the Origin TP52 did have some good races but was perhaps just slightly too radical a boat from JK.

As you see - we will see.

I don't take it personally - facts are the facts.

#89 Hastings

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

But given that they have no chance to meet the sailing-day limits, it would seem they would be kind of lingering around the docks on the days were there would be even a chance to get out there. These are the most important days, it would seem, trying to get all the information possible, as soon as possible, to get the information to help develop Boat-2.


I have no insider info on this.

But, in my view, TH's recent body language and hesitation seemed to go way beyond a prudent and reasonable response to the OR pitchpole.

Terry looked (and sounded) rattled.

After 2007 there was a big face-off (and firing) at Halsey St - involving Hutch and Dalts.

We have rehashed this before. But, even now, there are unresolved questions about Hutch's calls in the last races at Valencia!

Particularly concerning the penalty turn too far back from the finish line.

I met Hutch in Valencia and think he is an alright bloke.

But, it seems like he does not perform well under pressure.

And, right now, AR is under pressure.

#90 Dog the Bounty Hunter

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

But +39 was a newbie team. Some good sailors pulled in from the Olympics at the last minute. Shit designer, shit management and sailors happy to have a nice time knowing they weren't going to win!!

That sounds familiar!! +39= AR

#91 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

From comments at Sail-World

--
Amongst this group, Hutchinson was probably the odd-man out. While he had several America's Cup campaigns under his belt, including the 2007 campaign with Emirates Team New Zealand, and had been primary helmsman with the team in the America's Cup World Series, he lacked the depth of experience that others have in multihull sailing or high performance sailing, albeit that Hutchinson is one of the worlds' top helmsman in large monohulls.
--

#92 fastyacht

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:14 PM

I think that TH is one of the most talented sailors in the world today but he isn't a multihull sailor. You can get away with it on the 45. You can't get away with it on the 72. The penalties of getting it wrong are simply too high.


I dunno Simon, I can cherrypick those videos and find stupid shit by JS, by RC, and others, just as spectacular. It always looks so clear from the armchair...

Fact remains that TH is a brilliant sailor--I agree with you on that--you should have seen him in college, too. He won the 45 thing--won it--and what you suggest is that he can't learn. I don't buy it. I think all is not what it seems.

#93 fallsailor

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:19 PM


I had a feeling something would have to give when Loick was brought in...

Best Wishes TH!

Hey...!

Maybe we will finally have a commentator for the rest of the ACWS, the LV and the AC that knows what the hell they are talking about! (Mitch, you were great! Didn't mean to lump you in there...)

fs


Like I said, above, put some veneers on his teeth, keep him in the shade so he does not need so damned much sun block, and keep him from screaming, maybe he would make a good American commentator.

I still really have to say I think Mitch & Jenny would make a great duo. Screw the "need" to have a "pro" in the booth.


True GG....

#94 Presuming Ed

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:44 PM


But +39 was a newbie team. Some good sailors pulled in from the Olympics at the last minute. Shit designer, shit management and sailors happy to have a nice time knowing they weren't going to win!!

That sounds familiar!! +39= AR


Except +39 didn't have any money.

#95 familysailor

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:46 PM


I had a feeling something would have to give when Loick was brought in...

Best Wishes TH!

Hey...!

Maybe we will finally have a commentator for the rest of the ACWS, the LV and the AC that knows what the hell they are talking about! (Mitch, you were great! Didn't mean to lump you in there...)

fs


Like I said, above, put some veneers on his teeth, keep him in the shade so he does not need so damned much sun block, and keep him from screaming, maybe he would make a good American commentator.

I still really have to say I think Mitch & Jenny would make a great duo. Screw the "need" to have a "pro" in the booth.


Would you shut the fuck up about teeth? What does anybody's shade of tooth color or tooth alignment have to do with sailing?
Post your perfect smile and good looks on a new thread in GA so you can hear thoughtful comment on your beauty....

#96 Indio

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:53 PM



I had a feeling something would have to give when Loick was brought in...

Best Wishes TH!

Hey...!

Maybe we will finally have a commentator for the rest of the ACWS, the LV and the AC that knows what the hell they are talking about! (Mitch, you were great! Didn't mean to lump you in there...)

fs


Like I said, above, put some veneers on his teeth, keep him in the shade so he does not need so damned much sun block, and keep him from screaming, maybe he would make a good American commentator.

I still really have to say I think Mitch & Jenny would make a great duo. Screw the "need" to have a "pro" in the booth.


Would you shut the fuck up about teeth? What does anybody's shade of tooth color or tooth alignment have to do with sailing?
Post your perfect smile and good looks on a new thread in GA so you can hear thoughtful comment on your beauty....

+101!! Some people must be so perfect they're dazzled by their own reflections....or not!!

#97 SimonN

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

Not quite, but I was wondering whether you are officially Cayard's apologist?

Whether TH should have gone is a very different issue to whether PC should go.I have never liked PC and don't think he has done a very good job, but that doesn't change the fact that TH wasn't cutting it as a helm for this cycle of the AC.

#98 eric e

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

I for one am expecting canoe bodies that are significantly finer and perhaps reserve buoyancy like Artemis?
I think the really big volume on boat 1 was an "insurance policy" in case their assumptions around stability of foiling were incorrect.


could etnz sail the windy LVcup with full buoyancy boat 1

win

transfer the gear to a fine bow, lower wind, boat 2

then remeasure for AC finals?

#99 Chris UK

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:21 AM

I certainly don't see this as disarray as some people seem to think it is. With Loick coming on board, they had their safe, experienced pair of hands. With Nathan, they have their "young gun" whohas all the ability and huge potential. Where does Hutch fit in? He doesn't bring either the experience of Loick or the potential of Nathan. Plus, whenever there has been big breeze, he has looked decidedly dodgy on the helm while Nathan has shown himslef to be a natural. Hutch's natural instincts haven't adapted to multis and they simply cannot afford to do an Oracle. And to date, Nathan hasn't been given the opportunity to helm at all.

I think the key to this is Ian Percy. As has been reported elsewhere, it seems he has been taking more and more of a role in driving the sailing program and that the crew has gravitated towards him for leadership. I was never convinced by the dynamic between Perc and Hutch, but I can see Perc and Nathan working really well, while I suspect that Perc has enough respect for Loick if Nathan doesn't get up to grade.

Finally, they will have had the chance to see Hutch at the helm of the AC72 and one has to suspect they didn't like what they saw. Hutch may be the best match racer they have at the moment, but to finish first, first they have to finish and of the 3 potential helms, Hutch was the one I would have had least confidence in.

To me, this is a very decisive move and is anything but a team in disarray. Hutch was given every chance to show himself as a multihull sailor and to build the team around him and it seems pretty clear he was, at best, struggling with both. They also gave him the chance to helm the AC72. I guess if it had been ETNZ, their "loyalty" would have meant they went forward with a sub standard helm while if it was OR, he would have been parked in another role and simply be paid lost of money for nothing. All told, I see this as a good move at the right time and I expect the team to be significantly stronger for it.

1+ Agree. Said the same thing in October. Perc would come to the front due to leadership and character. He, Nathan a LP can still turn this around, they all know what winning is about and what is required. Fundamentally, you need the best people in the right positions and if something isn't right you change it today.

#100 Chris UK

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:56 AM


Dimitris you are so wrong..

Think you must have been watching a different olympics then. IP totally dominated the Star Class, probably the most competitive fleet in the Olympics and only lost the gold due to an unlucky lull on the final run to the finish and the stupid double points medal race format. You don't consistently beat sailors of that calibre unless you really have, which IP does.

The factor is that TH wasn't up to the job. He couldn't sail the boat, the crew had no confidence in him and he wasn't a good team player (you don't scream at your crew when you fucked up on the lay line call).

I would say that AR now have a set up that is a good as any and I think you will see a much stronger AR over the next few months.

As to the ETNZ comparison I haven't seen anything yet to show that their boat is fast. Yes, it can foil, yes it is good in a breeze - is it fast enough ? No one knows but to my eye it doesn't look as quick as OR or AR, particularly upwind.


No my friend I was watching the same Olympics as you! All I am saying is that IP fails to deliver!!!!! Check +39 results in Valencia, Teams Origin in TP52 a couple years later (acted as tactitian- I have nothing against Ben's capabilities) and you will see what I mean.... do not take it personaly we do not have to have the same opinion. Bottom line we will see for real in a couple of months....

100% wrong.




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