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installing new windless - two questions


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#1 Estar

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

the instruction manual says to tighten the bolts (between the gear box under the deck to the gypsy housing above deck) to 43Nm (which I looked up to be 32lbs-ft). But there is no clearance to get even a socket on these nuts much less my torque wrench. The only way to tighten them is with an open end wrench. So, my question is for an 8" open end wrench and a very awkward reach - is 43Nm basically as tight as you can get it, or is it firm but still could be made tighter, or less than that?

I am upgrading the size of the windless (from a lewmar V4 to a V5) and found it odd that the V5 motor has fewer battery cables run to it than the V4 motor. The V5 has 3 (a central negative and two positives for forward and reverse). The V4 had 4 (a central negative, and three positive cables). Whats the difference between these two motors, and what did the third positive cable do in the old one? (they are 12vt dc motors controlled by a contactor). I have it installed and working but am just curious to learn why the motors are wired differently. Below is the wiring diagram from the manual

Attached File  lewmar.jpg   163.02K   16 downloads

#2 Joli

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

Maybe the third positive was driving a solenoid to change gear ratio, up versus down?

#3 bugger

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

I know little about your windlass but I can do math.

Torque = radius times force (when the force is applied at right angles to the radius).

T= r x F

To get 32 ft lbs of torque on an 8" (0.66 ft) wrench,

32 ft lbs = 0.66 x F
F= 32 / 0.66
F= 48.5 lbf

That is, at the end of the wrench (the very end) you need almost 50 lbs of force perpendicular to the wrench. Since your hand will be some distance from the end (say an in or two) you need even more force.

I would say pull pretty hard on that wrench. You probably have some idea what it is to lift something that weighs about 50 lbs.

#4 Ishmael

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:25 PM

According to the Lewmar literature, you need different contactors for each. The guide lists the V4 as a SW motor type and the V5 as SF, so I'm guessing Series Wound and Split Field (?). Someone who knows electric motors better step in here before I get too deep in misinformation.

#5 Estar

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

I know little about your windlass but I can do math.
...
F= 48.5 lbf

That is, at the end of the wrench (the very end) you need almost 50 lbs of force perpendicular to the wrench. Since your hand will be some distance from the end (say an in or two) you need even more force.

I would say pull pretty hard on that wrench. You probably have some idea what it is to lift something that weighs about 50 lbs.


I can do the math too . . . and was really wondering how 'hard' is 50lbs of pull at an awkward angle. My guess was that it was about as hard as I could pull. Sounds like you agree with that.

Maybe the third positive was driving a solenoid to change gear ratio, up versus down?


Well they are all rated as big battery cables all coming from the contactor box, which has no inputs for 'changing gear ratios'.

Just quickly looking up dc motors it seems there are two ways to make them reverse - 3 lead and 4 lead, butit looks to me like the four lead designs should have two negs and two pos wires, while this seems to have one neg and 3 pos. I still don't understand how it works and why they would have a different motor design in the v4 from the v5.

I am sure these are just standard industrial motors, not specifically designed for this windless.

According to the Lewmar literature, you need different contactors for each. The guide lists the V4 as a SW motor type and the V5 as SF, so I'm guessing Series Wound and Split Field (?).


Yes, I installed a new contactor. The old contactor had 4 battery cables (1 + in and 3 + out) while the new one has 3 cables.

Where (what 'guide') do you see the SW & SF 'type listed?

#6 Joli

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:00 PM

Without a doubt they are off the shelf gear motors. I'm pretty sure Harken uses Bison Gear for their electric winches. Electric motors are not a core competency for the marine trade.

http://www.bisongear...5_A_skuid_E_661

#7 Ishmael

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:22 PM


I know little about your windlass but I can do math.
...
F= 48.5 lbf

That is, at the end of the wrench (the very end) you need almost 50 lbs of force perpendicular to the wrench. Since your hand will be some distance from the end (say an in or two) you need even more force.

I would say pull pretty hard on that wrench. You probably have some idea what it is to lift something that weighs about 50 lbs.


I can do the math too . . . and was really wondering how 'hard' is 50lbs of pull at an awkward angle. My guess was that it was about as hard as I could pull. Sounds like you agree with that.

Maybe the third positive was driving a solenoid to change gear ratio, up versus down?


Well they are all rated as big battery cables all coming from the contactor box, which has no inputs for 'changing gear ratios'.

Just quickly looking up dc motors it seems there are two ways to make them reverse - 3 lead and 4 lead, butit looks to me like the four lead designs should have two negs and two pos wires, while this seems to have one neg and 3 pos. I still don't understand how it works and why they would have a different motor design in the v4 from the v5.

I am sure these are just standard industrial motors, not specifically designed for this windless.

According to the Lewmar literature, you need different contactors for each. The guide lists the V4 as a SW motor type and the V5 as SF, so I'm guessing Series Wound and Split Field (?).


Yes, I installed a new contactor. The old contactor had 4 battery cables (1 + in and 3 + out) while the new one has 3 cables.

Where (what 'guide') do you see the SW & SF 'type listed?


In the Lewmar infosheet for windlass accessories, showing what contactors go with what windlasses. My V700 is a PM, aka "permanent magnet" type. http://www.lewmar.co...e=113&channel=1

#8 sculpin

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:18 AM

Hi
If you can put a double ended wrench on it, and then use some sort of bolt/nut combo on the free end, put the torque wrench on the free end. Do the math to figure what torque value you need to apply to the end of the wrench.

I had to do this on a smaller scale on a toggle switch, military customer who spec'd an exact torque value to torque the nut. Since the nut is a knurled thing I couldn't get a wrench on it, so I made a pliers type thing that grabbed it and I applied the torque wrench on the end of that.

#9 SereneSpeed

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:19 PM

Most aluminum oil pans have 30ft-lbs spec'd for the drain plug. Ask any mechanic who tightens them all day long with an 8" box end wrench and they'll say "tight, but not too tight".

If you have access to a torque wrench, just do some practice runs. Tighten a bolt with your hand and the box end wrench and then put the torque wrench on it at 25 ft-lbs and see if the nut moves. If not, raise the torque until it clicks - you'll get the feel for it.

I can apply ~75 ft-lbs with an 8" socket wrench when I pull as hard as I can without using my body weight. Easily over 90 ft-lbs with body weight.

Think about the dinky little wrench that all cars come with for changing flat tires. Most lug nuts are between 70-80 ft-lbs...

I think your're description; "firm but still could be made tighter" is perfect.

Just my personal experience (but, I own 5 torque wrenches).

#10 Joli

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:39 PM

It could also be a dual com to increase torque or speed..............

#11 JBE

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:46 AM

I agree with SS , back in the lets torque down the big block alloy inlet manifold to 30 pounds days , it needed firm but able to be more on a half or 9/16 ring spanner ( whatever it was .. too long ago)
These two things I can can do, torque to 30 with a spanner , and set points to 16 thou by eye.
This one thing I can remember.... 18436572.

#12 Estar

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:30 AM


"firm but still could be made tighter" is perfect.

Just my personal experience (but, I own 5 torque wrenches).



OK, that's where it is now. I am going to let it set a couple days (there is a rubber gasket and some plastic washers in the sandwich) and then check it again.

I suppose it would not hurt to get the feel on some practice bolts that I can get the torque wrench on.

Any other thoughts on why the prior motor had 3 + battery cables from the contactor and the new one only has 2?

#13 MoeAlfa

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

?

#14 Estar

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:11 AM

?


neat. where do you buy them?

However, not sure how much sense it makes to buy for this single application.

#15 MoeAlfa

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:14 AM


?


neat. where do you buy them?

However, not sure how much sense it makes to buy for this single application.

I got a set at Sears. Google "wrench extension". You'll find another use some day.

#16 SereneSpeed

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:57 AM


?


neat. where do you buy them?

However, not sure how much sense it makes to buy for this single application.


http://www.harborfre...-set-94427.html

EDIT: I've never tried these with a torque wrench. But I have used them with various extensions to get into tight spots.

#17 Moonduster

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:52 AM

My Muir windlass also had a three wire arrangement - they refer to the motor as a "dual-direction motor".

The primary difference is that a 3-wire motor it allows the ground connection to always be intact, which is important in some setups. With a 2-wire motor, the solenoids must break the ground to get the desired reversing effect and in most installations the ground floats when the windlass is not in use.

The second difference is that with a 3-wire motor, the winding ratios can be different - this means that "down" can be faster and use less power than does "up".

Good luck!

#18 Leka

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:29 AM

A while ago when I was working in heavy earthmoving equipement we would often come across a similar problem of not being able to get a torque wrench on a bolt. Especially in remote locations where the fitter would not have his full compliment of 'gadgets'.
We used to set up the same bolt in a vice or blow a hole in a plate of steel and practice doing it by hand and then checking with a torque wrench.
Difficult body positions could be practiced if you could only get to it in a certain way.
We used to be able to get within +- 5 lb with some consistency.
Close enough, and we never had a failure........well, not with the nut/bolt, but plenty of other failures, but that's another story!!

#19 Estar

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:16 PM

I am anchored off Ajax's river right now. Windless is working perfectly - smoother and faster and more powerful than previous one. So, I am going to call it good for now. I will recheck the bolts next in a month or so.

#20 Joli

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:35 PM

Which anchor do you now use Estar?

#21 Estar

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

Which anchor do you now use Estar?


I alternate between a Manson ray and a rocna, although I am trying/planning to replace the rocna with a manson Boss (because I hate the rocna roll bar) but manson has sort of dropped the ball on that and I need to pick it up again. I have the rocna down right now because this is a mud bottom that suits it . . . although there is not expected to be any sort of wind . . . probably just dropping 100' of chain into the mud would do the job.




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