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Can anyone identify this 12 Metre?


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#1 Captain Jack Sparrow

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

Posted Image
This picture is dated 1940, taken in Norway. One of the sail numbers is 12 N11, which is the Norwegian 12 metre Vema III. The other boat is carrying sail number 12 US16, which wasn't issued until Columbia came along in 1958... Does anyone have any leads into this? The Herreshoff Museum is also on the case. I don't know the likelihood of figuring this out.

#2 Earl Boebert

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:35 PM

I'm pretty sure it's Vanderbilt's "Vim," although why it's carrying US16 instead of US15 is a mystery. The forward hatch and rail and the spreaders all fit "Vim," although it would take a higher-resolution picture to be sure.

Cheers,

Earl

#3 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:29 AM

Columbia 1958 12 US 16 Henry Nevins Olin Stephens Henry Sears Alain J. Hanover 20.19 14.30 3.61 2.80  


#4 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:32 AM

Vema III 1933 12 N 11 Anker & Jensen Johan Anker G. Unger Vetlesen Tor-Jørgen Dahl & Einar Nagell Erichsen, Norway 21.25 13.87 3.58 2.71 183


#5 sledracr

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:43 AM

Norway was invaded by the German army in April, 1940. My guess is that the date on the photo is "off".

#6 Earl Boebert

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

After playing with some image enhancement stuff, I was wrong. The foredeck rails look more like Columbia. That particular pattern of mainsail reinforcements does not appear in any of the 1958 Cup pictures I have in my library, so if it is a mis-dated photo of Columbia it's off by a ways.

Cheers,

Earl

#7 sleddog

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:09 AM

NORSAGA, probably 1948-'49. Her Norwegian sail # was 16. But her owner,Rick Bay, US Ambassador to Norway, likely changed the "N" to "US" as that was who he was representing.

COLUMBIA never had a wooden spar nor cotton sails....

#8 HHN92

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

NORSAGA, probably 1948-'49. Her Norwegian sail # was 16. But her owner,Rick Bay, US Ambassador to Norway, likely changed the "N" to "US" as that was who he was representing.

COLUMBIA never had a wooden spar nor cotton sails....


Interesting find. I would agree, and add that Columbia probably never had a main with 2 reef points either.

#9 Bob Perry

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:13 PM

Never had a bow like that either.

#10 coggs

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:17 PM

A dig through my dad's (Wells Coggeshall) boxes and boxes of old 35mm Kodack slides would likely confirm it's Norsaga. He crewed on her (as Phoenix - Charles Coyer owner) in the SORC in 1973 and had a bunch of pictures. A 12 Meter "Where are they now" website last lists her as "undergoing restoration" in 1991. I suspect somebody bit off more than they could chew as that's the last bit of info I could find. As I recall Wells said she leaked like a sieve in 1973.

#11 sleddog

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:58 AM

NORSAGA was originally named TRIVIA. She has been beautifully restored, and sails under that name.
http://www.trivia.de/

#12 mcsailor0303

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:49 PM

I love SA.

#13 A Florida Redneck

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:27 PM

I love SA.

What a great racing record!
Love the old 12s.

#14 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:33 PM

NORSAGA, probably 1948-'49. Her Norwegian sail # was 16. But her owner,Rick Bay, US Ambassador to Norway, likely changed the "N" to "US" as that was who he was representing.

COLUMBIA never had a wooden spar nor cotton sails....


Sleddog, how do you know these things???? BV

#15 Ignatius J. Reilly

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:04 PM

These are the kind of topics and responses that amaze me about Sailing Anarchy. Great collective knowledge .... interspersed with a few asshats!

That said ... here is a Columbia related mystery I have wondered about. The 12 meter Anitra (US #5) was on the west coast from the 70's up until the late 90's. At some point in there her wood spar was replaced with a behemoth of an aluminum spar. The most amazing part was the giant elliptical rod rigging she sported. The shroud was like the barrel of a giant turnbuckle with reverse threaded forks on one end and righty tighty threads on the other.

Anyway the story I was told was that the rig had come off of Columbia. Anyone have any knowledge of whether this might have been true? Again it would have been in the 70's ... somewhere in Southern California. (Wilmington?)

By the way ... this story has a happy ending .... Anitra was completely restored at great expense and is now sailing in Europe. (Great Restoration Website)

Attached File  anitra_rig.jpg   52.47K   61 downloads

#16 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:40 PM

Reilly:
I remember seing "lenticular" foil shaped rod rigging used on 6m's. Is that what you are talking about?

#17 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:49 PM

He said 'lenticular' :)

#18 fastyacht

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:54 PM


NORSAGA, probably 1948-'49. Her Norwegian sail # was 16. But her owner,Rick Bay, US Ambassador to Norway, likely changed the "N" to "US" as that was who he was representing.

COLUMBIA never had a wooden spar nor cotton sails....


Sleddog, how do you know these things???? BV


There is also a photo of NORSAGA in Aero-hydrodynamics of Sailing on page 45, in this case she has a British "K" designator. She was outfitted with instrumentation for some studies.

#19 fastyacht

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:06 PM

NORSAGA was originally named TRIVIA. She has been beautifully restored, and sails under that name.
http://www.trivia.de/


Now you've got me totally confused. The sail numbers don't match.

And further than that, the TRIVIA website you linked to shows sail number 10. But in Uffa Fox's Racing, Cruising & Design, there is a photo of VERONICA with that sail number. She was designed & built by Alfred Mylne for Robert Dunlop, Jr. Is it a photo of the wrong boat?

Looking through the race results for the season, posted on page 194 of the book, I see the yacht TRIVIA listed as owned by V. W. MacAndrew, getting some good finishes. Unfortunately not enough photos.

#20 Ignatius J. Reilly

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

Reilly:
I remember seing "lenticular" foil shaped rod rigging used on 6m's. Is that what you are talking about?


Amazing ... you are absolutely correct!

Attached File  220px-Sword_cross_section_svg.png   74.59K   2 downloads

Learn something new everyday!

Thanks Bob!

#21 fastyacht

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:26 PM


Reilly:
I remember seing "lenticular" foil shaped rod rigging used on 6m's. Is that what you are talking about?


Amazing ... you are absolutely correct!

Attached File  220px-Sword_cross_section_svg.png   74.59K   2 downloads

Learn something new everyday!

Thanks Bob!


Lenticular as in like a Lentil.

#22 Ignatius J. Reilly

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:34 PM

Sailing Anarchy reaches new erudite heights!

#23 On the Hard

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:45 PM

These are the kind of topics and responses that amaze me about Sailing Anarchy. Great collective knowledge .... interspersed with a few asshats!

That said ... here is a Columbia related mystery I have wondered about. The 12 meter Anitra (US #5) was on the west coast from the 70's up until the late 90's. At some point in there her wood spar was replaced with a behemoth of an aluminum spar. The most amazing part was the giant elliptical rod rigging she sported. The shroud was like the barrel of a giant turnbuckle with reverse threaded forks on one end and righty tighty threads on the other.

Anyway the story I was told was that the rig had come off of Columbia. Anyone have any knowledge of whether this might have been true? Again it would have been in the 70's ... somewhere in Southern California. (Wilmington?)

By the way ... this story has a happy ending .... Anitra was completely restored at great expense and is now sailing in Europe. (Great Restoration Website)

Attached File  anitra_rig.jpg   52.47K   61 downloads


Don't ignore this link! Some amzing pics if you click through. Like this one.



Aw...Hell! How do you post a picture on the new format?

Just click on the link and go to the last link to see her sailing.

#24 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

I know lenticular rigging intimately.
I got drunk at a regatta in Canada and passed out leaning against the shrouds of a 6m. I woke up ( came to) with the grooves of that rigging imbedded in my back.

#25 Mr. Starbuck

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:18 PM

that is a funny story.

nothing like experience based learning.

#26 P_Wop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

Lots of divergent ideas about lenticular rods. Line up the long axis fore-and-aft? Or "toe-out" 25 degrees - great on the weather side to reduce frontal area, but not so good to leeward for airflow in the slot. No two experts ever agreed. Bob?

#27 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:52 PM

Wop:
I have not given it much thought. You get lots of drag from round shapes. Less frontal area with lenticular. Maybe you get some lift from it if it's lined up with centerline.
It feels like the right way to do it. But if it was such a good idea why did we not see more of it? Cost? Not sure.

Besides I still design double enders how would I know.

Attached Files



#28 Caca Cabeza

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:54 PM



Reilly:
I remember seing "lenticular" foil shaped rod rigging used on 6m's. Is that what you are talking about?


Amazing ... you are absolutely correct!

Attached File  220px-Sword_cross_section_svg.png   74.59K   2 downloads

Learn something new everyday!

Thanks Bob!


Lenticular as in like a Lentil.


As in Lenticule. Lenticular is more than one lenticule.

#29 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:57 PM

Oh yeah,,,well,,, there's more than one shroud so plural, lenticular.
Fucking Latin scholar.

#30 fastyacht

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:47 AM

"As in Lenticule. Lenticular is more than one lenticule."

WTF?

#31 sleddog

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:56 AM

From the TRIVIA website: "After the war, TRIVIA was sold to Charles Ulrick Bay, an American industrialist and U.S. ambassador in Norway, where she sailed from 1948 until 1958 under her new name Norsaga."

While in Norway, NORSAGA sailed under Norwegian sail number 12 #16, which Rick Bay changed to U.S. #16, as he was U.S. ambassador to Norway.

Not to confuse, but for unclear reasons, both VERONICA (1931) and TRIVIA (1937) had the same British sail numbers 12 K-10 http://www.trivia.de/Twelves.shtml

VIM, under Rod Stephens' direction, was the first 12 to have both flatbar rod rigging and an aluminum mast. COLUMBIA, "just an improved VIM", said Rod's brother Olin, had the same rig treatment. "Flatbar" rod is also called lenticular rod, and was originally made for aircraft controls and rigging. The first round rod rigging did not appear until 1968-1969, and for several seasons got a bad name for stress corrosion cracking.

COLUMBIA's original sails were dacron and made by Colin Ratsey. Her main was lightweight and lavender in hue, and dubbed the "Purple People Eater."

As an aside, the 1971 Mull 42 IMPROBABLE had (and still has) lenticular rod rigging. Gary insisted we each carry a crescent wrench in our pockets, and "tack" the rigging (windward and leeward) each time we came about, so the rigging faced into the apparent wind. There was some rebellion aboard when on long weather boards, we'd send a crew aloft to tack the rigging. Commodore Tompkins, never a shrinking violet, would ascend hand over hand up the main luff.

#32 Recidivist

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:37 AM

My understanding is that lenticular comes from "lens shaped". Our lenticular rod rigging in the early 70's didn't have any sharp edges, it was oval like.

As I understand it, lenticular extrusions were used to decrease windage (but see post above re AoA), but set up vibrations that caused fatigue, and lenticular dropped out in favour of round section.

#33 Ishmael

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:58 AM

"As in Lenticule. Lenticular is more than one lenticule."

WTF?


Plural of lenticule is lenticulae. Almost extinct, they still inhabit the peat bogs of Ireland.

Lenticular refers to the lens-shaped structure which it resembles. From the Latin "lent" or "borrowed". As in "Brutus lent my best spear".

#34 fastyacht

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:39 AM

It all goes back to Lentils :-)

#35 moody frog

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:15 PM

My understanding is that lenticular comes from "lens shaped". Our lenticular rod rigging in the early 70's didn't have any sharp edges, it was oval like.

As I understand it, lenticular extrusions were used to decrease windage (but see post above re AoA), but set up vibrations that caused fatigue, and lenticular dropped out in favour of round section.


I sailed with lenticular rod-rigging in the 70's.
The (nearly) lone manufacturer in Europe was South-Coast-Rod-Rigging, my feeling from those times were that it dropped-off mostly because of cost. They were extremely well made but in a kind of traditional engineering shop and had to be custom-made to measure (the ends were round and machined in a threaded bolt) . With skilled workers' wage progression it became unsustainable by the 80's.

If memory serves me well, the elderly gentleman running SCRR traced the origins of his company to the T.O.M Sopwith days, they might have been the manufacturers of the above 12's rigging.

By the way, the yacht's owner and skipper was a jet-fighter pilot and as such had access to X-ray testing of the rigging, it passed the test OK , at least till they were 5 to 7 years old and I lost contact with the sold boat.

#36 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:03 PM

Attached File  oryxsl.jpg   251.84K   8 downloads
Re: Lenticular rigging.
John Illingworth (for whom I was working for at the time) wrote the following. "Particularly close-winded yachts ( where the apparent wind can be 25 deg. on the bow) will benefit from lenticular rigging, resistance wise. As designers we have used this on several spacial yachts, including the Class 1 Oryx".
Note: I sailed 2 Fastnet race aboard.
http://tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com

#37 Volume311

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:17 AM

Spent the summer in Newport working on Northern Light US14, it too has flat rod rigging. From the research I've done there are benefits like mentioned above "25* apparent wind, etc" but at other angles presented much higher drag than solid rod. Great to read all this information on here! I think Weatherly US17 also had a flat rod rig at one point.

#38 CJV

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:28 AM

What a great thread. Thanks fellas..

#39 WhoaTed

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:03 AM

Is there still some of that lenticular stuff hanging on a rig behind a hardware store in the Detroit area?

#40 Asymptote

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:20 AM

Lots of divergent ideas about lenticular rods. Line up the long axis fore-and-aft? Or "toe-out" 25 degrees - great on the weather side to reduce frontal area, but not so good to leeward for airflow in the slot. No two experts ever agreed. Bob?


Ah, the myth of "airflow in the slot" crops up again...

Sailed with lenticular rod in '65. We thought it was hot stuff, but whatever drag it might have saved was WAY overcome by the twin rod forestays on rockers (so the unloaded one went slack) the owner was in love with to speed sail changes.

#41 P_Wop

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:04 AM

Twin rod headstays... Ugh.. I hated those things. You'd do really a heavy-air gybe with a small jib, and two or three hanks would flip open and then closed again as they brushed the other stay, and wind up neatly switching rods. If you were really unlucky, one hank would capture both of them. Not a pretty problem to sort out on the bow in 40 knots.

Again, DAHIKT

Damn you for the memories.

#42 gybe-ho!

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:35 AM

Don't look now, but Lenticular is back...Hall's SCR Aerofoil. Needs little damper weights to stop the vibration on all the spans and is aligned fore and aft.

#43 judge

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:51 AM

The semi-converted 12 metre "Kookaburra" sails out of RYCV in Williamstown still has the original 1987 [or so] lenticular rod shrouds. Mast still standing!

#44 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

As in Lenticule. Lenticular is more than one lenticule.

Yet triangular can refer to a single item :)




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