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Viper and J70 video


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#1 sailss

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:21 PM



#2 Timbo

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

How much time did the Vipe spot the J70??

#3 Savage 17

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:33 PM

Why is the J70 sailing with 4 people in such light air?

#4 BIAM

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

if you need to take a crap on the viper, what do you do?

#5 Vee

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:27 AM

Hang it off the back, just like on the J :o

#6 Left Hook

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:44 AM

Would like to see a similar comparison done sailing upwind.

#7 Snapper95

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:08 AM

Ugh, is it just me or is rap not compatible with sailing?

#8 White Wing

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:12 AM

Would like to see a similar comparison done sailing upwind.


I think you probably already have that in this video --- two guys in a Viper vs. 4 in a J/70 in pretty light air....upwind, the J/70 likely walked away from the (maybe) overpowered Viper, and then on the slide downhill, the Viper was able to catch back up and pass.....looked like they were just at the planing stage, but the J/70 was just a bit under.

WWing

#9 garrett818

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:16 AM


Would like to see a similar comparison done sailing upwind.


I think you probably already have that in this video --- two guys in a Viper vs. 4 in a J/70 in pretty light air....upwind, the J/70 likely walked away from the (maybe) overpowered Viper, and then on the slide downhill, the Viper was able to catch back up and pass.....looked like they were just at the planing stage, but the J/70 was just a bit under.

WWing

The difference in upwind boatspeed with 2 vs 3 people on a viper is huge. From personal experence in greater than 5kts of wind the viper needs 3 guys on the rail. in over 15kts the target crew weight is ~600lbs. (interestingly the viper is also faster downwind with 3 people)

#10 Vela Sailing Supply

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:29 AM



Would like to see a similar comparison done sailing upwind.


I think you probably already have that in this video --- two guys in a Viper vs. 4 in a J/70 in pretty light air....upwind, the J/70 likely walked away from the (maybe) overpowered Viper, and then on the slide downhill, the Viper was able to catch back up and pass.....looked like they were just at the planing stage, but the J/70 was just a bit under.

WWing

The difference in upwind boatspeed with 2 vs 3 people on a viper is huge. From personal experience in greater than 5kts of wind the viper needs 3 guys on the rail. in over 15kts the target crew weight is ~600lbs. (interestingly the viper is also faster downwind with 3 people)


+1

Obviously, both boats will have a sweet spot in both wind conditions and course in relation to the wind. I do agree that the Viper 640 needs 3 on the rail upwind on anything over 6 knots. Of course, it depends on individual weight of those three. The J/70 had one crew too many for the wind and sailing angle and he was right on the transom. With that wind strength I don't think that is going to do them any good. Both great and very different boats.

#11 ultraracer613um

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:36 AM

Not that it really matters but... The vipers going to faster up and down. Don't have any delusions otherwise.

I was surprised it took the viper so long to catch the 70 downwind. Though I will say you don't often see a competitive viper driver sitting on their arse in the cockpit floor or a more over strapped spinnaker.

Not sure what the point of this video was other than to stir up a little sheiit. I though everyone had agrees that 70 owners didn't care how fast the boat was, it's all about one design.





Would like to see a similar comparison done sailing upwind.


I think you probably already have that in this video --- two guys in a Viper vs. 4 in a J/70 in pretty light air....upwind, the J/70 likely walked away from the (maybe) overpowered Viper, and then on the slide downhill, the Viper was able to catch back up and pass.....looked like they were just at the planing stage, but the J/70 was just a bit under.

WWing



#12 Mambo Kings

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:23 AM

One of those rare occasions where Ultra is 100% right. A Viper will be faster than a J70 up and down the course. Two up or three up.
On the other hand an F18 and will spank both the Viper and the J70.

Respectfully disagree with the 600 lbs. to be competitive in breeze. Certainly a Clysdale team can tune the boat so they can hang in with breeze but three out of top five round the first windward mark in the breeze on day at NAs were 540 lbs or less.
Another big air day in Charleston Mambo Kings sailed at 550 but the fastest round the course that day was Piet at 520. Ultra seems to be able to light the upwind afterburners in breeze anywhere from 500 (the mrs and the Ultra light ) and 600 (guest appearnace from monkey) so the range works.
On Wednesday evening in Marblehead we only raced Vipers with two and we used to get some nice breeze on evenings. Two up would not be competitive vs 3 up in a regatta.

One hint to the guys in the video. Fore and aft weight is also very important and your weight was a bit too far aft heading downwind. In that breeze, you want full waterline, bow touching water, and reduce wetted surface in the stern. Its all good and main thing is that you were having fun and smokin your buddies in the J70


Not that it really matters but... The vipers going to faster up and down. Don't have any delusions otherwise.

I was surprised it took the viper so long to catch the 70 downwind. Though I will say you don't often see a competitive viper driver sitting on their arse in the cockpit floor or a more over strapped spinnaker.

Not sure what the point of this video was other than to stir up a little sheiit. I though everyone had agrees that 70 owners didn't care how fast the boat was, it's all about one design.






Would like to see a similar comparison done sailing upwind.


I think you probably already have that in this video --- two guys in a Viper vs. 4 in a J/70 in pretty light air....upwind, the J/70 likely walked away from the (maybe) overpowered Viper, and then on the slide downhill, the Viper was able to catch back up and pass.....looked like they were just at the planing stage, but the J/70 was just a bit under.

WWing



#13 schoonerman

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

J70 looks like a good boat to teach sailing on to me :ph34r:

Too bad it's SO f'n pricey!

I've sailed Viper solo with Kite up in a max of 15. You have to set the rig really tight to keep things in check for going upwind.

I think the Viper is pretty fast with two sailing up to about 11 TWS. Then the added butt helps a lot!

My old crew we sailed at 510 and I found that to be a pretty good weight if you tune for it. This years LBRW we sailed at 610. We were unbeatable upwind (tuned very soft)... but pretty slow downwind in an uncharacteristically lite LBRW. (max 15 TWS)

#14 6924

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

Reports everywhere are of similar issues with the J/70 versus similar boats.

In the Carolinas, Ultimate 20 vs. J/70 - J/70s can't keep up except in a very narrow range of conditions. Reports are in light air the J/70 is a dog.

In Anacortes, report of a J/70 that tried some racing up there but was so humbled, it just sits at the dock collecting seaweed.

Even in Santa Barbara where a J/70 has sailed a few time vs. Harbor 20s, the reports are that the J/70 struggled to stay ahead of the Harbor 20s. Turns out the J/70 'speedster' has less sail area than a Harbor 20.

There are also consistent reports of lee helm downwind on the J/70 - which might explain the numerous broaches for J/70s during the Fall Brawl in Annapolis.

Finally, a most telling report that the Johnstones slammed a number of dealers for trying to dump their inventory J/70s at massive discounts. Reports also that Dealers are balking at being gang pressed into KWRC.

#15 DAK

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

Reports everywhere are of similar issues with the J/70 versus similar boats.

In the Carolinas, Ultimate 20 vs. J/70 - J/70s can't keep up except in a very narrow range of conditions. Reports are in light air the J/70 is a dog.

In Anacortes, report of a J/70 that tried some racing up there but was so humbled, it just sits at the dock collecting seaweed.

Even in Santa Barbara where a J/70 has sailed a few time vs. Harbor 20s, the reports are that the J/70 struggled to stay ahead of the Harbor 20s. Turns out the J/70 'speedster' has less sail area than a Harbor 20.

There are also consistent reports of lee helm downwind on the J/70 - which might explain the numerous broaches for J/70s during the Fall Brawl in Annapolis.

Finally, a most telling report that the Johnstones slammed a number of dealers for trying to dump their inventory J/70s at massive discounts. Reports also that Dealers are balking at being gang pressed into KWRC.

I find this very hard to believe. Dealers like to make money. Like them or not, J70's are going to sell. If you are a dealer thanks for the info. If not...

#16 6924

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

Dealers have been around enough to know when too much inventory is being pushed too fast.

#17 ejpoulsen

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

Massive discounts?

I'd like to hear about that and order a boat, then.

On the West Coast the only prices I've seen have been MSRP +++.

#18 hoofhearted

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

Maybe someone should organize a race between the J/70, Melges, 20, and Harbo 20 and see who comes out on top :rolleyes:

#19 Snapper95

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:08 AM

Reports everywhere are of similar issues with the J/70 versus similar boats.

In the Carolinas, Ultimate 20 vs. J/70 - J/70s can't keep up except in a very narrow range of conditions. Reports are in light air the J/70 is a dog.

In Anacortes, report of a J/70 that tried some racing up there but was so humbled, it just sits at the dock collecting seaweed.

Even in Santa Barbara where a J/70 has sailed a few time vs. Harbor 20s, the reports are that the J/70 struggled to stay ahead of the Harbor 20s. Turns out the J/70 'speedster' has less sail area than a Harbor 20.

There are also consistent reports of lee helm downwind on the J/70 - which might explain the numerous broaches for J/70s during the Fall Brawl in Annapolis.

Finally, a most telling report that the Johnstones slammed a number of dealers for trying to dump their inventory J/70s at massive discounts. Reports also that Dealers are balking at being gang pressed into KWRC.


Pal, how about some data and some sources that have sailed the boat? Show us these "reports". Otherwise, I am waving the Bull Shit flag on you. Are you that threatened by a new boat hitting the market?

There is an email list full of owners that raced in the regatta you mentioned, and no one has mentioned lee helm. Maybe I should ask, but no one in this thread who has sailed the boat mentioned lee helm. I certainly didn't feel any. Give me the point of sail and conditions, and I'll have someone check it.

#20 jokerx9

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:06 AM

Snapper 95,

I don't think anyone is hating on the j70, just talking about issues that have heard about. Every boat has them. I'm not sure there is a scientific way to document them other than word of mouth. For a year everyone wanted to blow their load on the fantasy of the j70. Now that it's a reality you are gonna hear both pros and cons about the boat. Some are true, some are false.

#21 Snapper95

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:24 AM

Nah, there is plenty of rumor based hate on the 70 here. We have plenty of people who have already bought and raced the boat. I'd rather hear from them.

The demand for the boat is pretty dramatic. I doubt the discounts are true, other than the introductory pricing. I'm not a dealer though.

#22 jokerx9

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:34 AM

Maybe your right, maybe your not. Either way all boats get this, its just the first time the j70 has experienced some negative conversation.

#23 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:46 AM

Maybe your right, maybe your not. Either way all boats get this, its just the first time the j70 has experienced some negative conversation.

Hence your name Joker

#24 Obsessed

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:46 AM

I remember a whole thread which bagged the shit out of them saying they would be a dog. You must be lost and are looking for the J boat anarchy

#25 Mambo Kings

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:50 PM

Just so my post was not misinterpreted. Of course the Viper is faster than the J70 . So what? The F18 is faster than a Viper.

The Viper is an incredibly fun boat with a great crowd of people. As everyone knows, I get a big kick out of my Viper and I have a good group of freinds that I look forward to racing against. But that doesnt stop me admiring what J Boats has done with the J70. The J70 has implemented what I have always preached. It is not all about the boat itself. Its about putting together the right program and supporting it with local distribution. Its the ownership experience that people care about, not just the boat.

Despite all the naysayers, the J70 is at least an okay boat. It might even be a good little boat. It checks a lot of boxes. But what really makes it stand out is J Boats distribution skills. They really understood their US audience in a way that Laser -Performance never did with the SB3, that Melges missed with the M20, and that Rondar is only just begining to understand as they take the Viper to the next stage from the volunteers.

Laser Performnace put together a nationwide demo program backed by glossy ads and sold no boats. Demos without local follow through do NOT sell boats. Never have and never will.
Melges worked its rolodex and allowed a 20 foot keelboat to evolve into an expensive grandprix program niche product. Wrong boat to impress the 1% and wrong price to attract the mass market small boat afficianado.
Viper enthusiasts did a great job growing a 200 boat fleet by word of mouth with next to nothing spent on marketing and keeping the price low. But Rondar's new US operation now has to demonstrate that they can pick up the ball and run with it and create local distribution and service for their product range to get to the next level. Viper is perfectly capable of becoming a 1,000 boat class in the USA . The jury is still out. Dont get me wrong, they are selling and building Vipers every week and Rondar is committed to appointing local reps..but its all in the execution.

Selling one design sailboats in the USA is all about local selling. J Boats gets this. They wont have the right guy in every region but they have a lot of right guys and their execution model of working to build local fleets is exceptional. The sailing experience is a distinct alternative to the Melges 20 (which is its more direct competitor for the J70 than the Viper). They have not been pushing the boat to pro programs. They have been pitching the boat as a great fun local club racing boat.....and guess what you can take it to Miami and we have sold 300 boats. Fleet by fleet working with local spark plugs.

The Viper prospers because it is a different boat to the J70. The Viper has some strong local fleets built by enthusiasts and a good circuit on 3 coasts. It is at a price point and audience (3 person keel boat) that it could easily be a 1,000 boat class. But as Viper owner, I am not going to knock the J70. In fact I am going to congratulate them for what they are doing to reinvigorate one design and quietly suggest that Rondar read parts of their playbook. Nothing wrong with copying Belichik

#26 Jerryd

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:50 PM


Reports everywhere are of similar issues with the J/70 versus similar boats.

In the Carolinas, Ultimate 20 vs. J/70 - J/70s can't keep up except in a very narrow range of conditions. Reports are in light air the J/70 is a dog.

In Anacortes, report of a J/70 that tried some racing up there but was so humbled, it just sits at the dock collecting seaweed.

Even in Santa Barbara where a J/70 has sailed a few time vs. Harbor 20s, the reports are that the J/70 struggled to stay ahead of the Harbor 20s. Turns out the J/70 'speedster' has less sail area than a Harbor 20.

There are also consistent reports of lee helm downwind on the J/70 - which might explain the numerous broaches for J/70s during the Fall Brawl in Annapolis.

Finally, a most telling report that the Johnstones slammed a number of dealers for trying to dump their inventory J/70s at massive discounts. Reports also that Dealers are balking at being gang pressed into KWRC.


Pal, how about some data and some sources that have sailed the boat? Show us these "reports". Otherwise, I am waving the Bull Shit flag on you. Are you that threatened by a new boat hitting the market?

There is an email list full of owners that raced in the regatta you mentioned, and no one has mentioned lee helm. Maybe I should ask, but no one in this thread who has sailed the boat mentioned lee helm. I certainly didn't feel any. Give me the point of sail and conditions, and I'll have someone check it.


Snapper, he's been negative on the boat from the beginning. I would just ignore him.

#27 TimFordi550#87

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:12 PM

Ugh, is it just me or is rap not compatible with sailing?


plus uno on that^.

Video was actually fairly tolerable with the sound tuned off. Seeing that Vipe ass-down like that had me ooching forward, I almost sat on my keyboard.

#28 schoonerman

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

Hey, I LOVE the J70. It's made the 20-something sportboat market legitimate (as if it already wasn't ;-)

The J70 fills a niche that exists, they are selling boats and the guys building them do a good job. I'll have tons of fun sailing it in the 3BF and I'll report back.

We're selling a lot of Vipers now, and I think, in some way, the J70 is helping us. We're different and that's whats good about us. The Viper is just a different tool for the same job...that's all. It is quite possible the J70 will help us propel the Viper into the rarefied space of hull #1000+.

We have two owners in the West that just bought F18's to sail alongside their Vipers. I'll be interested to see where they stand at the end of this season. Have to say I'm a bit jealous. I used to sail a lot of cats and well, I do like the haulassness of them.

#29 Monster Mash

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

LOL
Thanks 6924 for making my $2500 Santana 22 faster than a J70.

Even in Santa Barbara where a J/70 has sailed a few time vs. Harbor 20s, the reports are that the J/70 struggled to stay ahead of the Harbor 20s. Turns out the J/70 'speedster' has less sail area than a Harbor 20.


Lets see
In Santa Barbara Harbor 20 faster than J70
In Alameda my Santana 22 is sometimes faster than a Harbor 20.
Therefore my $2500 4ktsb is faster than a new J70

#30 Snapper95

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:06 PM

Hey, I LOVE the J70. It's made the 20-something sportboat market legitimate (as if it already wasn't ;-)

The J70 fills a niche that exists, they are selling boats and the guys building them do a good job. I'll have tons of fun sailing it in the 3BF and I'll report back.

We're selling a lot of Vipers now, and I think, in some way, the J70 is helping us. We're different and that's whats good about us. The Viper is just a different tool for the same job...that's all. It is quite possible the J70 will help us propel the Viper into the rarefied space of hull #1000+.

We have two owners in the West that just bought F18's to sail alongside their Vipers. I'll be interested to see where they stand at the end of this season. Have to say I'm a bit jealous. I used to sail a lot of cats and well, I do like the haulassness of them.


Of course! That is was so few around here seem to get. The friggin' market is being expanded, and you will see people leave symmetrical boats and end up in a variety of sport boats that appeal to them.

Anything that generates interest in the market is a good thing.

Never will I understand the win/lose attitudes, or why relative speed between classes is a factor for a One Design boat. Pick something that you can afford to sail and maintain, with a One Design fleet in your area and have a ball.

#31 Ryley

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

Reports everywhere are of similar issues with the J/70 versus similar boats.

In the Carolinas, Ultimate 20 vs. J/70 - J/70s can't keep up except in a very narrow range of conditions. Reports are in light air the J/70 is a dog.

In Anacortes, report of a J/70 that tried some racing up there but was so humbled, it just sits at the dock collecting seaweed.

Even in Santa Barbara where a J/70 has sailed a few time vs. Harbor 20s, the reports are that the J/70 struggled to stay ahead of the Harbor 20s. Turns out the J/70 'speedster' has less sail area than a Harbor 20.

There are also consistent reports of lee helm downwind on the J/70 - which might explain the numerous broaches for J/70s during the Fall Brawl in Annapolis.

Finally, a most telling report that the Johnstones slammed a number of dealers for trying to dump their inventory J/70s at massive discounts. Reports also that Dealers are balking at being gang pressed into KWRC.


Can you quote your sources? at the Whitebread, A J70 won its division with fastest elapsed and corrected, and would have been 1st or 2nd on corrected time in most of the divisions above it too. That was rated at 117. Granted, the other two J70s in the class finished 7/8 out of 10, but I think it's a little early to tell if they are fast or not fast. They just changed the class rules to allow 4 crew, weight unlimited (although only two can hike legs-out), so it would seem to me the development is far from complete.

#32 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:39 AM

Hey, I LOVE the J70. It's made the 20-something sportboat market legitimate


Wow. Not much left to say then, I guess. Game over.

#33 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:24 AM

lolz sch'man

that might be up for discussion if it were a sportsboat
simply not enough sail, its getting chopped up by old trailer sailers

no-ones twigged that if it's mainsail hadn't been chopped away it would not have lee helm

I urge you 70 cats to keep your hikers as far forward as practicable, thereby easing your CLR around or hopefully forward of the CE

#34 Streetwise

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:24 AM

We've got a couple of J/70 that will be racing with us next year and I'm happy to see them. They are getting people into sportboats who might not go for a Viper or VX.

#35 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:29 AM

sportsboats ?

#36 Mambo Kings

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:35 AM


Hey, I LOVE the J70. It's made the 20-something sportboat market legitimate


Wow. Not much left to say then, I guess. Game over.


Careful he said the same thing about the SB3 and then the Melges 20. Kiss of Death. Lets hope the J70 survives shoon's praise.

#37 fastyacht

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:05 AM

To me, the J70 shouldn't have a bowsprit and asym. It isn't fast enough to make that work. For same sail area it would get to the Leeward Mark faster with a real spinnaker. It is an odd duck: not a cruising boat, but has a little cabin (for sex :-). But we all cursed many details of the J24 and found some other MORC boats to be better boats, but J24 became a class. Mambo is right about that.

The Viper is fast enough -- high performance enough -- to make that asym the correct solution most of the time. 505 is right on the edge of that solution. We rarely square the pole. The viper is quite a bit faster. I hope this makes sense.

I don't know the numbers, but just watching the video, you can see that the J is totally in displacement speed and yet the crew is too far aft and the bow out. Even the viper was too aft--but she was in fact escaping her stern wave.

I haven't sailed either but I am impresed by the Viper and the F18. Having sailed on the same course with both in regattas the past few years, they look like a good time.

Now, if I sailed a J70, perhaps I'd love it. Some boats just feel good. I know you will laugh at this, but I finally sailed a Wayfarer last year. In 20 kts. And it was so well behaved. I have sailed other boats similar size that I just hated. Feel is important too. In my J experience, I liked the 27 a lot more than the 24 for that reason.

Now of course if I did own a viper, I'd rig trapezes on it and get rid of the bulb on the keel :-0
But here again is something significantly different about these two boats. The viper will capsize. It will turtle. Saw that this fall. (And the J24 will sink...not so good...) but I expect that the J70 is probably a lot more of a keelboat than the viper--the latter really is a "stabilized dinghy" or something to that effect (which is why I like it:)

#38 Mambo Kings

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:22 AM

Im going to push back on that "stabilized dinghy" comment. I see it from time to time. You have to sail it. It is very distinctly a keel boat, and if you broach, you will noticeably feel the keel kick in.

I distinctly remember the first day I sailed a Viper ( I had no intention of buying). Keel boat groove upwind and then turned the corner and leapt onto a plane. I said to myself "Finally, someone has designed and built an open day racing keel boat which is designed uncompromisingly to plane". I wrote a check the same day and how many boat owners can say "I havent regretted it for one day ever since." It was a breakthrough and to some extent it still is. Many of the other 20s still havent fully broken free of design constraints such as little cabins or traditional hull shapes. The Viper is pure pedigree race boat. It is what it is (and yes, very different from the J70) but it really has much more ballast to displacement than the bulb assisted dingies and sails quite differently. For me it is still the perfect hybrid. It is a keel boat, but the whole concept is centered around planing downwind. It is just so much fun to sail downhill, with the right combination of good behaviour and speed- it responds so beautifully to weight placement and trim, and has happened on a hull shape which catches waves effortlessly in a way that no other boat I have sailed does. It is an amazing boat. It is still the most uniquely pleasing experience to sail downwind.

There are lots of great boats out there, but the Viper has a "feel" that is very special.

#39 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:43 PM

People who don't sail dinghies always say it feels like a dinghy.

#40 fastyacht

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

Hi Mambo,

Having been overhauled by a Viper, while in my 505 on a plane, I can personally attest to the downwind performance of the Viper! And in light air they are also very fast. Newport regatta a couple of years ago, they stayed with the wispy northerly all the way out, going downwind. In other words it looked like they were able to make VMG at windspeed in 5 knots of breeze (or nearly so).

Now I really, really need to sail a viper to see what she feels like. (Hint hint :-)

Have you sailed any of those other sort of planing dinghy / keel hybrids from the 90s? Back when the Atlantic City Expo was the thing to do, along with seeing the 49er for the 1st time, and the Whitbred 30, and the Mumm 30 and a bunch of other stuff, there were a number of English boats (which I don't think ever took off here) both trapeze types (?boss? Laser 5000?) and keel sorts (Laser something or other, and, and... ) I can't remember their names.

HPDO was interesting because we had the range of Tempest, to the K6 and Viper. Too bad we didn't all have more time and some way to do "hey, sail my boat if I can sail yours" sort of experimentation. Although I imagine everyone would have wanted to ride an F18...

#41 schoonerman

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

lolz sch'man

that might be up for discussion if it were a sportsboat
simply not enough sail, its getting chopped up by old trailer sailers

no-ones twigged that if it's mainsail hadn't been chopped away it would not have lee helm

I urge you 70 cats to keep your hikers as far forward as practicable, thereby easing your CLR around or hopefully forward of the CE


OK, GS...a 'yankee' sportboat...LMAO.

Mambo, I think the M20 is doing just fine. A bunch of friends sail it and get paid well doing that :-D

#42 Port Tack Start

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

People who don't sail dinghies always say it feels like a dinghy.


When I first stepped on one from the dock, the first thing that came to my mind was that I was going to capsize it like a dinghy (totally unfounded). Got more comfortable sailing it in the last LBRW, and I definitely agree that it is more of a light keelboat.

That's probably where the reputation comes from. When a leadmine sailor steps onboard and it heels 45 degrees. That and the occasional turtling video/picture in force 7 conditions....oO

#43 Snapper95

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:24 PM

...There are lots of great boats out there, but the Viper has a "feel" that is very special.


So nice to see an older man still in love. :wub:

#44 Mambo Kings

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

Hi Mambo,

Having been overhauled by a Viper, while in my 505 on a plane, I can personally attest to the downwind performance of the Viper! And in light air they are also very fast. Newport regatta a couple of years ago, they stayed with the wispy northerly all the way out, going downwind. In other words it looked like they were able to make VMG at windspeed in 5 knots of breeze (or nearly so).

Now I really, really need to sail a viper to see what she feels like. (Hint hint :-)

Have you sailed any of those other sort of planing dinghy / keel hybrids from the 90s? Back when the Atlantic City Expo was the thing to do, along with seeing the 49er for the 1st time, and the Whitbred 30, and the Mumm 30 and a bunch of other stuff, there were a number of English boats (which I don't think ever took off here) both trapeze types (?boss? Laser 5000?) and keel sorts (Laser something or other, and, and... ) I can't remember their names.

HPDO was interesting because we had the range of Tempest, to the K6 and Viper. Too bad we didn't all have more time and some way to do "hey, sail my boat if I can sail yours" sort of experimentation. Although I imagine everyone would have wanted to ride an F18...


Of course. Come for a ride. You clearly sail the New England performance circuit. Wickford is another regatta where we should be trading boats. PM me and I will hook you up with a chance to sail a Viper.

Caveat: 5-0-5 is another one of those special classes that people fall in love with for life. There is a reason why a 50+ year old class has 150+ boats at its worlds sailed by some of the best dinghy sailors on the planet. There is a reason that 9000+ 5-0-5s have been built and the grizzled old guys in the fleet are a witness to the addiction. Compared to a Fife Oh, the Viper is a keelboat and a different experience.

I believe that the Viper could become an enduring classic in its own way like the 5-0-5 or the Star. Within its niche, it has a blend of things that just feel right.

#45 Mambo Kings

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:53 PM


...There are lots of great boats out there, but the Viper has a "feel" that is very special.


So nice to see an older man still in love. :wub:


My Viper could do with some Botox in places but she still has a hot body.

#46 Ryley

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:41 PM


Hi Mambo,

Having been overhauled by a Viper, while in my 505 on a plane, I can personally attest to the downwind performance of the Viper! And in light air they are also very fast. Newport regatta a couple of years ago, they stayed with the wispy northerly all the way out, going downwind. In other words it looked like they were able to make VMG at windspeed in 5 knots of breeze (or nearly so).

Now I really, really need to sail a viper to see what she feels like. (Hint hint :-)

Have you sailed any of those other sort of planing dinghy / keel hybrids from the 90s? Back when the Atlantic City Expo was the thing to do, along with seeing the 49er for the 1st time, and the Whitbred 30, and the Mumm 30 and a bunch of other stuff, there were a number of English boats (which I don't think ever took off here) both trapeze types (?boss? Laser 5000?) and keel sorts (Laser something or other, and, and... ) I can't remember their names.

HPDO was interesting because we had the range of Tempest, to the K6 and Viper. Too bad we didn't all have more time and some way to do "hey, sail my boat if I can sail yours" sort of experimentation. Although I imagine everyone would have wanted to ride an F18...


Of course. Come for a ride. You clearly sail the New England performance circuit. Wickford is another regatta where we should be trading boats. PM me and I will hook you up with a chance to sail a Viper.

Caveat: 5-0-5 is another one of those special classes that people fall in love with for life. There is a reason why a 50+ year old class has 150+ boats at its worlds sailed by some of the best dinghy sailors on the planet. There is a reason that 9000+ 5-0-5s have been built and the grizzled old guys in the fleet are a witness to the addiction. Compared to a Fife Oh, the Viper is a keelboat and a different experience.

I believe that the Viper could become an enduring classic in its own way like the 5-0-5 or the Star. Within its niche, it has a blend of things that just feel right.


I'm going to take you up on that "test drive" offer this year too, if I can.

#47 Mambo Kings

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:29 PM



Hi Mambo,

Having been overhauled by a Viper, while in my 505 on a plane, I can personally attest to the downwind performance of the Viper! And in light air they are also very fast. Newport regatta a couple of years ago, they stayed with the wispy northerly all the way out, going downwind. In other words it looked like they were able to make VMG at windspeed in 5 knots of breeze (or nearly so).

Now I really, really need to sail a viper to see what she feels like. (Hint hint :-)

Have you sailed any of those other sort of planing dinghy / keel hybrids from the 90s? Back when the Atlantic City Expo was the thing to do, along with seeing the 49er for the 1st time, and the Whitbred 30, and the Mumm 30 and a bunch of other stuff, there were a number of English boats (which I don't think ever took off here) both trapeze types (?boss? Laser 5000?) and keel sorts (Laser something or other, and, and... ) I can't remember their names.

HPDO was interesting because we had the range of Tempest, to the K6 and Viper. Too bad we didn't all have more time and some way to do "hey, sail my boat if I can sail yours" sort of experimentation. Although I imagine everyone would have wanted to ride an F18...


Of course. Come for a ride. You clearly sail the New England performance circuit. Wickford is another regatta where we should be trading boats. PM me and I will hook you up with a chance to sail a Viper.

Caveat: 5-0-5 is another one of those special classes that people fall in love with for life. There is a reason why a 50+ year old class has 150+ boats at its worlds sailed by some of the best dinghy sailors on the planet. There is a reason that 9000+ 5-0-5s have been built and the grizzled old guys in the fleet are a witness to the addiction. Compared to a Fife Oh, the Viper is a keelboat and a different experience.

I believe that the Viper could become an enduring classic in its own way like the 5-0-5 or the Star. Within its niche, it has a blend of things that just feel right.


I'm going to take you up on that "test drive" offer this year too, if I can.


Of course Ryley. The more the merrier. Your boat has always drawn a few admiring glances at PHRF NEs .

Peter Beardsley organized a really good idea this last fall at Larchmont YC. One day regatta. The local Western LIS Vipers showed up + 1 from the NJ fleet. Owners crewed and (coordinated by Peter) we invited a bunch of friends who had been interested in trying a Viper to come and drive. I came along and I had a blast.

The atmosphere was very lighthearted because nobody's ego was on the line. No skipper had driven the boat before. But the racing turned out to be very high quality and evenly matched. The skippers all raced other boats and all turned out to be very competent helms. The Viper owners knew their boats so the boat handling was immaculate and Viper owners turn out to be good tacticians as well. It way exceeded my expectations. All bar one boat scored a bullet over the course of the day....and that one boat scored two seconds. There was a lot of laughs and chatter between the races but the short course racing was tight and quite intense with lots of tactics and gybes going on downwind. By the time the last race rolled around, the guest skippers were really dialed in and I wish I had a picture of that start and the first windward rounding. It was a really good day on the water, and the appreciation of the guest skippers afterwards gave us all a warm glow. It builds great relationships with other classes. Peter....if you are reading this, thank you again for organizing. The Marblehead fleet should think of doing something similar.

#48 Left Hook

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

Disclaimer: Being an offshore keelboat purist I feel dirty saying this: I really really want to try racing one of these sporty 20 ft monos. Can't come close to affording one for years but with all this talk of how good the racing is it's getting to the point where I feel I might be missing out.

Does that make me a hypocrite?

#49 Christian

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

Well - if you want to learn to sail rather than being a rail-rider you need to get in smaller boats - dinghies, sportboats - it's all good. The Viper circuit has some really good, fun, and spirited racing. You will learn a lot!

#50 Ryley

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:43 PM

Disclaimer: Being an offshore keelboat purist I feel dirty saying this: I really really want to try racing one of these sporty 20 ft monos. Can't come close to affording one for years but with all this talk of how good the racing is it's getting to the point where I feel I might be missing out.

Does that make me a hypocrite?


its not quite the same but if you're ever in the boston area and want a ride on the Elliott, be happy to take you out.

#51 Left Hook

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:52 PM


Disclaimer: Being an offshore keelboat purist I feel dirty saying this: I really really want to try racing one of these sporty 20 ft monos. Can't come close to affording one for years but with all this talk of how good the racing is it's getting to the point where I feel I might be missing out.

Does that make me a hypocrite?


its not quite the same but if you're ever in the boston area and want a ride on the Elliott, be happy to take you out.


Ryley, I was actually admiring RockIt when we were in your marina for the night with the NYYC cruise this past August. You weren't around and it wasn't the right time for a sail anyways but you have a fine looking boat. I don't get up to Boston much but appreciate the offer just the same.

Well - if you want to learn to sail rather than being a rail-rider you need to get in smaller boats - dinghies, sportboats - it's all good. The Viper circuit has some really good, fun, and spirited racing. You will learn a lot!


Thanks captain obvious. I wish I could be more like you buddy ;)

#52 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:21 PM

Disclaimer: Being an offshore keelboat purist I feel dirty saying this: I really really want to try racing one of these sporty 20 ft monos. Can't come close to affording one for years but with all this talk of how good the racing is it's getting to the point where I feel I might be missing out.

Does that make me a hypocrite?

don't worry about badging oneself, and go for it

you don't have to take the bus everyday,
you could have a adrenalin packed spin on a motorbike

#53 culebra

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:35 AM

One of those rare occasions where Ultra is 100% right. A Viper will be faster than a J70 up and down the course. Two up or three up.
On the other hand an F18 and will spank both the Viper and the J70.

Respectfully disagree with the 600 lbs. to be competitive in breeze. Certainly a Clysdale team can tune the boat so they can hang in with breeze but three out of top five round the first windward mark in the breeze on day at NAs were 540 lbs or less.
Another big air day in Charleston Mambo Kings sailed at 550 but the fastest round the course that day was Piet at 520. Ultra seems to be able to light the upwind afterburners in breeze anywhere from 500 (the mrs and the Ultra light ) and 600 (guest appearnace from monkey) so the range works.
On Wednesday evening in Marblehead we only raced Vipers with two and we used to get some nice breeze on evenings. Two up would not be competitive vs 3 up in a regatta.

One hint to the guys in the video. Fore and aft weight is also very important and your weight was a bit too far aft heading downwind. In that breeze, you want full waterline, bow touching water, and reduce wetted surface in the stern. Its all good and main thing is that you were having fun and smokin your buddies in the J70



Not that it really matters but... The vipers going to faster up and down. Don't have any delusions otherwise.

I was surprised it took the viper so long to catch the 70 downwind. Though I will say you don't often see a competitive viper driver sitting on their arse in the cockpit floor or a more over strapped spinnaker.

Not sure what the point of this video was other than to stir up a little sheiit. I though everyone had agrees that 70 owners didn't care how fast the boat was, it's all about one design.






Would like to see a similar comparison done sailing upwind.


I think you probably already have that in this video --- two guys in a Viper vs. 4 in a J/70 in pretty light air....upwind, the J/70 likely walked away from the (maybe) overpowered Viper, and then on the slide downhill, the Viper was able to catch back up and pass.....looked like they were just at the planing stage, but the J/70 was just a bit under.

WWing

I am surprised to find myself on the internet. I am the dude on "my arse" in the Viper. Great fun! Let me answer a few questions. We were handicapped at 99 versus 117 for the J 70. Crew weight totaled 370 lbs and we did feel that we were overpowered to windward. We actually got so far behind in this particular race when we got stuck in a hole, behind an island, on a very irregular course on Lake Lanier. We are inexperienced Viperers but getting better. We appreciate the critique. BTW, we had the first Viper here in 2007 and we are now the last Viper here. The Melges 24 rules on this lake because of the light wind advantage. Similarly, the J70 will not likely make inroads here because seems to lack light wind performance.

#54 schoonerman

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:18 PM

Welcome Culebra,

99 is a tough one. What's the Melges rate? 90?

You guys will still be able to win a lot of races. If you don't have a speed aboard, get one. This will help you better judge your VMG while you're learning the boat.

This is the North Tuning Guide info but will help you with Target Speeds and broad tuning suggestions. The Viper is VERY responsive to tuning. The rig is pretty flexible and really the only thing you have to worry about is inverting it, easily prevented with minimal tuning.

You guys want to get that big ass out of the water. Move as far forward as possible in the way light stuff. Crew sitting next to mast, helm forward of mainsheet block. The boat will track better and go faster. If you hear gurgling...that's a bad thing. Water is breaking behind the transom.

When wind is under 5 tws,drop the jib. Kite breathes better and trims easier. You will do floater gybes then. Take the top batten out of the jib too. Leach will open up and let the main breathe.

Winds over 5, in goes the top batten (VERY flexy one though until 9 TWS). Jib stays up and at about 10 tws full on skiffy gybes. Crew trims the leeward sheet in as they cross to the new hiking spot, once the kite collapses into the forestay, let it go and trim on the new side. You should sharpie/mark the sheets with these trim points until you get the hang of things. It's the same gybe the Melges Guys are probably doing on the 24. Works much better than a flail-n-wail big boat gybe.

You may want to jump in the Viper forum for more tips and info. http://forum.viper640.org/index.php

Have some great fun with your boat and let us know if you need anything.

drew harper drew@rondarboats.com

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#55 USA 177628

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

Just a quick call out that the video from the original post is at Lake Lanier in GA. While a great place to sail, the Lake has crazy shifts and puffs coming from all over, and it looks like the Viper was bringing a big puff down with it. I've been in one-design races here where a boat a full leg behind catches boats 20 yards from the finish by just coming down a different side of the course..

This race in particular was sailed PHRF, with the J70 given a rating of 117, and the Viper a rating of 99. Regardless of the ratings, in 3 out of the 5 races, the J70 beat the Viper on elapsed time: 1:10 to 1:13, 32mins to 34mins, 1.56 to 1.58, and 41mins 38 secs to 41 mins 19 secs (viper wins), 1.47.23 to 1.47.13 (viper wins - 10 secs over 2 hrs!)

Also worth noting the sailors: This J-70 was sailed by the dealer, the viper by a local sailor.

Details here: http://www.llsc.com/...12/2012_490.pdf

#56 Ryley

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:09 PM

Just a quick call out that the video from the original post is at Lake Lanier in GA. While a great place to sail, the Lake has crazy shifts and puffs coming from all over, and it looks like the Viper was bringing a big puff down with it. I've been in one-design races here where a boat a full leg behind catches boats 20 yards from the finish by just coming down a different side of the course..

This race in particular was sailed PHRF, with the J70 given a rating of 117, and the Viper a rating of 99. Regardless of the ratings, in 3 out of the 5 races, the J70 beat the Viper on elapsed time: 1:10 to 1:13, 32mins to 34mins, 1.56 to 1.58, and 41mins 38 secs to 41 mins 19 secs (viper wins), 1.47.23 to 1.47.13 (viper wins - 10 secs over 2 hrs!)

Also worth noting the sailors: This J-70 was sailed by the dealer, the viper by a local sailor.

Details here: http://www.llsc.com/...12/2012_490.pdf


Interesting the J/70 got such a good rating on the lake. They've been hammering sportboat types for years, and that 117 is pretty much the higher end of the band for the j/70, it seems. Give it time - they'll beat the rating down to the Elliott/M24/Viper range in short order, I suspect. ;)

#57 Snapper95

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

Just a quick call out that the video from the original post is at Lake Lanier in GA. While a great place to sail, the Lake has crazy shifts and puffs coming from all over, and it looks like the Viper was bringing a big puff down with it. I've been in one-design races here where a boat a full leg behind catches boats 20 yards from the finish by just coming down a different side of the course..

This race in particular was sailed PHRF, with the J70 given a rating of 117, and the Viper a rating of 99. Regardless of the ratings, in 3 out of the 5 races, the J70 beat the Viper on elapsed time: 1:10 to 1:13, 32mins to 34mins, 1.56 to 1.58, and 41mins 38 secs to 41 mins 19 secs (viper wins), 1.47.23 to 1.47.13 (viper wins - 10 secs over 2 hrs!)

Also worth noting the sailors: This J-70 was sailed by the dealer, the viper by a local sailor.

Details here: http://www.llsc.com/...12/2012_490.pdf


Interesting to see the full backstory.

#58 schoonerman

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:42 PM

Don Trask sailed the J70?

Um..er...he's a bit more than a 'dealer' IMHO.

Heres some shots of Don sailing Stars against Dennis Conner and Lowell North in the 70's. Oh yeah, some dude named Buddy Melges too...lol

http://www.mycstar.o.../ph19701979.htm

Don can read a windshift about 3 days before it happens :-)

#59 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:31 AM

Sportboats shutes go to the top of the mast!

:D

#60 facthunt

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:08 PM

if you need to take a crap on the viper, what do you do?

throw it at the j.

#61 schoonerman

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

We usually have women crew. M has peeing perfected. She sits leeward and G and I hike marginally. She wears a swimsuit under her foulies and just sort of slides it aside, pees and let's us know when she's done. We just slide inboard a little, the boat heals and she gets a refresh bidet.....it all takes 2 minutes.

I'd post pics but she'd kill me ;-)

#62 Mambo Kings

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:04 AM


Just a quick call out that the video from the original post is at Lake Lanier in GA. While a great place to sail, the Lake has crazy shifts and puffs coming from all over, and it looks like the Viper was bringing a big puff down with it. I've been in one-design races here where a boat a full leg behind catches boats 20 yards from the finish by just coming down a different side of the course..

This race in particular was sailed PHRF, with the J70 given a rating of 117, and the Viper a rating of 99. Regardless of the ratings, in 3 out of the 5 races, the J70 beat the Viper on elapsed time: 1:10 to 1:13, 32mins to 34mins, 1.56 to 1.58, and 41mins 38 secs to 41 mins 19 secs (viper wins), 1.47.23 to 1.47.13 (viper wins - 10 secs over 2 hrs!)

Also worth noting the sailors: This J-70 was sailed by the dealer, the viper by a local sailor.

Details here: http://www.llsc.com/...12/2012_490.pdf


Interesting to see the full backstory.


Put Ben Ainslie in a J70 and put Ultra and me in a Viper.....and the Viper will beat the J70
Put Ben Ainslie in a McGregor 26 and Jackie in a Viper......and the McGregor 26 will beat the Viper

Does this mean the J70 is slower than a McGregor 26? No.

The backstory is that everyone on Lake Lanier was having fun. Its a fleet of different boats sailed by folks of different abilities.
A fast boat sailed by an occasional sailor can keep up with a somewhat slower boat sailed by an excellent sailor and where's the harm in that? As long as the beer is still cold.

Shout out to Gary Umberger in that fleet. "We miss you man!"

#63 kevlar®

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:06 AM

Would like to see a similar comparison done sailing upwind.


Oh come on now.. why would you want that??

#64 schoonerman

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:06 PM



Just a quick call out that the video from the original post is at Lake Lanier in GA. While a great place to sail, the Lake has crazy shifts and puffs coming from all over, and it looks like the Viper was bringing a big puff down with it. I've been in one-design races here where a boat a full leg behind catches boats 20 yards from the finish by just coming down a different side of the course..

This race in particular was sailed PHRF, with the J70 given a rating of 117, and the Viper a rating of 99. Regardless of the ratings, in 3 out of the 5 races, the J70 beat the Viper on elapsed time: 1:10 to 1:13, 32mins to 34mins, 1.56 to 1.58, and 41mins 38 secs to 41 mins 19 secs (viper wins), 1.47.23 to 1.47.13 (viper wins - 10 secs over 2 hrs!)

Also worth noting the sailors: This J-70 was sailed by the dealer, the viper by a local sailor.

Details here: http://www.llsc.com/...12/2012_490.pdf


Interesting to see the full backstory.


Put Ben Ainslie in a J70 and put Ultra and me in a Viper.....and the Viper will beat the J70
Put Ben Ainslie in a McGregor 26 and Jackie in a Viper......and the McGregor 26 will beat the Viper

Does this mean the J70 is slower than a McGregor 26? No.

The backstory is that everyone on Lake Lanier was having fun. Its a fleet of different boats sailed by folks of different abilities.
A fast boat sailed by an occasional sailor can keep up with a somewhat slower boat sailed by an excellent sailor and where's the harm in that? As long as the beer is still cold.

Shout out to Gary Umberger in that fleet. "We miss you man!"


You put Ben in a Finn and I bet you pinks he beats the Viper !

Ben Beats the Viper in a MacGregor too.

You guys will drink Ben under the table though :P

#65 ultraracer613um

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:57 AM

Huh?





Just a quick call out that the video from the original post is at Lake Lanier in GA. While a great place to sail, the Lake has crazy shifts and puffs coming from all over, and it looks like the Viper was bringing a big puff down with it. I've been in one-design races here where a boat a full leg behind catches boats 20 yards from the finish by just coming down a different side of the course..

This race in particular was sailed PHRF, with the J70 given a rating of 117, and the Viper a rating of 99. Regardless of the ratings, in 3 out of the 5 races, the J70 beat the Viper on elapsed time: 1:10 to 1:13, 32mins to 34mins, 1.56 to 1.58, and 41mins 38 secs to 41 mins 19 secs (viper wins), 1.47.23 to 1.47.13 (viper wins - 10 secs over 2 hrs!)

Also worth noting the sailors: This J-70 was sailed by the dealer, the viper by a local sailor.

Details here: http://www.llsc.com/...12/2012_490.pdf


Interesting to see the full backstory.


Put Ben Ainslie in a J70 and put Ultra and me in a Viper.....and the Viper will beat the J70
Put Ben Ainslie in a McGregor 26 and Jackie in a Viper......and the McGregor 26 will beat the Viper

Does this mean the J70 is slower than a McGregor 26? No.

The backstory is that everyone on Lake Lanier was having fun. Its a fleet of different boats sailed by folks of different abilities.
A fast boat sailed by an occasional sailor can keep up with a somewhat slower boat sailed by an excellent sailor and where's the harm in that? As long as the beer is still cold.

Shout out to Gary Umberger in that fleet. "We miss you man!"


You put Ben in a Finn and I bet you pinks he beats the Viper !

Ben Beats the Viper in a MacGregor too.

You guys will drink Ben under the table though :P/>



#66 RockHead

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:05 PM

Huh?



You guys will drink Ben under the table though :P/>

No question. My money will always be on Ultra in a drinking contest.

#67 Speng

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:37 PM

Video doesn't show anything really... the boats aren't even racing as far as I can see.

#68 Timbo

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:43 PM

Afterburners were not kicked in yet

#69 Mambo Kings

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:41 AM

No question. My money will always be on Ultra in a drinking contest.


My first response to that post was "I'll take the other side of that bet."


The I realized "What money? "
Rock's soon-to-be ex wife has got the money and she is smarter than to bet on drinking contests.

#70 Snapper

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:22 PM



Reports everywhere are of similar issues with the J/70 versus similar boats.

In the Carolinas, Ultimate 20 vs. J/70 - J/70s can't keep up except in a very narrow range of conditions. Reports are in light air the J/70 is a dog.

In Anacortes, report of a J/70 that tried some racing up there but was so humbled, it just sits at the dock collecting seaweed.

Even in Santa Barbara where a J/70 has sailed a few time vs. Harbor 20s, the reports are that the J/70 struggled to stay ahead of the Harbor 20s. Turns out the J/70 'speedster' has less sail area than a Harbor 20.

There are also consistent reports of lee helm downwind on the J/70 - which might explain the numerous broaches for J/70s during the Fall Brawl in Annapolis.

Finally, a most telling report that the Johnstones slammed a number of dealers for trying to dump their inventory J/70s at massive discounts. Reports also that Dealers are balking at being gang pressed into KWRC.


Pal, how about some data and some sources that have sailed the boat? Show us these "reports". Otherwise, I am waving the Bull Shit flag on you. Are you that threatened by a new boat hitting the market?

There is an email list full of owners that raced in the regatta you mentioned, and no one has mentioned lee helm. Maybe I should ask, but no one in this thread who has sailed the boat mentioned lee helm. I certainly didn't feel any. Give me the point of sail and conditions, and I'll have someone check it.


Snapper, he's been negative on the boat from the beginning. I would just ignore him.


what? Oh, you mean Snapper95...

#71 ultraracer613um

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:19 AM

Will the real snapper please step forward?

#72 Snapper95

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:47 AM

I'm the handsome snapper. ;)

#73 Soley

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:34 PM

I probably said it else where but what was J Boat thinking when they allowed that keel to happen? As a legs in, sit in side the lifelines boat that is one hell of an inefficient keel. At the dealer pre launch part, were all the dealers to scared to question the design?
That thing fucked up what is otherwise a perfectly acceptable middle of the road sportboat.

Falcon 2000 is calling and wants its keel back...

#74 ultraracer613um

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

I dunno, squidge is quite a handsome man!

I'm the handsome snapper. ;)



#75 herbie verstinx

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

I'm the handsome snapper. ;)/>

As If that's possible!




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