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Mark Room Question


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#1 WOPALX

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:42 AM

Appologies in advance, no pics of the wifes tits.... I'd need a macro lens :)

Little question about a mark rounding from the weekend, I'm interested in who might have infringed the rules (boat # 1 or boat #2).

1) 2 boats reaching to the mark that required a starboard rounding, both boats on starboard with boat # 1 clear ahead by 1 length at arrival at the zone.

2) At the mark boat #1 takes a leisurly turn, boat #2 hardens up to windard more. Still no overlaps.

3) Approx 3.5 lengths after passing the mark boat #1 passes head to wind tacking to port. Boat #2 calls starboard.

4) Boat #1 continues sheeting in, boat #2 crash tacks to port to avoid a collision. Boat #2 calls protest and flys their flag. Boat #1 calls protest but does not fly a flag. Neither boat does any turns.

I've attached a very poor diagram ..... sorry I'm no artist and scale etc alludes me :)


My run down is as follows;

The next mark was to windward of the mark where the incident occured, proper course could have been to go left or right.

18.2b applied until Boat #1 passed the mark and tacked passing head to wind

Boat #2 was no longer required to give room to keep clear as she had aquired right of way due to Boat #1's actions, rule 15

Boat #1 broke rule 10 as Boat #2 had to crash tack to avoid Boat #1


Would appreciate more experienced peoples thoughts, in the end there was no protest, both crews get on well in the bar but would still like to know whom was right and whom was wrong. Examples from the room in similar cases would be appreciated for bragging rights.

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#2 ColinG

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:54 AM

On that description, Boat 1 was in the wrong.

Boat 1 not longer at the mark, so mark room obligation is over (see definition of mark room).
Rule 13 or 10 if the tack is completed.

#3 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:58 AM

WOPALX,

I think you'll find that Rule 18 has little to do with this incident.

- While making the rounding there was never an overlap and therefore I don't think you'll find any part of Rule 18 that applies.

- While Boat #1 is hardening up to tack, prior to passing head to wind, she is the right of way boat under Rule 11 because she is ahead. Boat #2 must keep clear.

- Once Boat #1 passes head to wind she becomes the keep clear boat under Rule 13, and she must keep of Boat #2.

- Having completed her tack onto port Boat #1 remains the keep clear boat under Rule 10, and Boat #2 must keep clear.

As you have described the situation, Boat #1 probably tacked too close in front of Boat #2. But, as is always the case with these things, it would be nice to hear Boat #1's version of the events.

BV

#4 WOPALX

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:30 AM

Appreciate the feedback, pesronally I feel boat 1 broke RSS 10 but happy to see/hear other opinions

#5 Presuming Ed

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:47 AM

18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply
a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
b between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies.

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.


A right to mark room doesn't apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, and mark room doesn't include room to tack unless the mark room boat is overlapped inside.

Which leaves 10 and 13. If 2 had to alter course to keep clear of 1 while 1 was between head to wind and close hauled, then 1 broke 13. If 2 had to alter course when 1 was on a close hauled course, then 1 broke 10.

10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat.

13 WHILE TACKING
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11
and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this rule at the same time, the one on the other’s port side or the one astern shall keep
clear.



#6 WOPALX

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

- Having completed her tack onto port Boat #1 remains the keep clear boat under Rule 10, and Boat #2 must keep clear.

BV


I don't quite understand this, if boat 1 has tacked onto port, and boat 2 has remained on starboard why does boat 2 have to keep clear?

#7 JohnMB

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:25 PM


- Having completed her tack onto port Boat #1 remains the keep clear boat under Rule 10, and Boat #2 must keep clear.

BV


I don't quite understand this, if boat 1 has tacked onto port, and boat 2 has remained on starboard why does boat 2 have to keep clear?


typo

#8 WOPALX

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:31 AM

Thanks for clarifying.



- Having completed her tack onto port Boat #1 remains the keep clear boat under Rule 10, and Boat #2 must keep clear.

BV


I don't quite understand this, if boat 1 has tacked onto port, and boat 2 has remained on starboard why does boat 2 have to keep clear?


typo



#9 WOPALX

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:42 AM

Thanks for this, it's how I interpreted the rules.

One area of clarification, the zone is defined as 3 boat lengths.... does the zone include 3 boat lengths both before and after the mark?

Or is it simply to the mark given the 'as the crow flys' ideal course would have been to tack at the mark?

i.e. if Boat 1 sailed 3 lenghts past the mark before tacking then she would be out of the zone, but if she tacked within 2 lengths past the mark would still be in the zone and be able to claim room?

Who's boat length do you use, if one boat is 50" and the other 20" that would be a big difference in distance......


Appologies for the silly questions, just have opposing views and apart from going to the angry room I'm trying to ascertain who's correct/

18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply
a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
b between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies.

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.


A right to mark room doesn't apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, and mark room doesn't include room to tack unless the mark room boat is overlapped inside.

Which leaves 10 and 13. If 2 had to alter course to keep clear of 1 while 1 was between head to wind and close hauled, then 1 broke 13. If 2 had to alter course when 1 was on a close hauled course, then 1 broke 10.

10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat.

13 WHILE TACKING
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11
and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this rule at the same time, the one on the other’s port side or the one astern shall keep
clear.



#10 ColinG

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:08 AM

Have a look at the case book (online at ISAF website) and in particular case 15 regarding your situation.

CASE 15
In tacking to round a mark, a boat clear ahead must comply with rule 13; a
boat clear astern is entitled to hold her course and thereby prevent the other
from tacking.

Note however it can be a bit misleading as it implies that mark room continues until the boat entitled to mark room leaves the zone. I think they were concerned in this instance with the possibility that the boat might leave the zone "sideways" ie because she was below the mark, not having passed close to it and then held her course.

I think the general consensus among the rule gods here (I am not one) is that once a boat is leaving the mark (ie sailing away from it), the mark room obligation is over, even within the zone.

As to which boat size defines the zone, this is covered in the definition:

Zone The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the
boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

#11 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:32 AM


- Having completed her tack onto port Boat #1 remains the keep clear boat under Rule 10, and Boat #2 must keep clear.

BV


I don't quite understand this, if boat 1 has tacked onto port, and boat 2 has remained on starboard why does boat 2 have to keep clear?


Sorry my error I meant to say that Boat #1 has to keep clear. Of course Boat #2 is always obligated by Rule 14 not to hit Boat #1.

#12 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:41 AM

Wolpax,

When thinking about Case 15, per ColinG above, it's probably helpful to have a look at the Definition of "Mark Room" which is:





Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.


They talk about sailing "to the mark" and a "proper course while at the mark". Then there are a few restrictions regarding tacking that don't apply to the case you've described. But the definition doesn't say anything about sailing away from the mark. Do have a look at 18.2(B) and ©, posted above by Presumed Ed.

#13 WOPALX

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:10 AM

Thanks heaps, this is just the resource I was looking for.

From a quick glance, Case 9, Case 15 and Case 81 all seem to apply to the situation.

Have a look at the case book (online at ISAF website) and in particular case 15 regarding your situation.

CASE 15
In tacking to round a mark, a boat clear ahead must comply with rule 13; a
boat clear astern is entitled to hold her course and thereby prevent the other
from tacking.

Note however it can be a bit misleading as it implies that mark room continues until the boat entitled to mark room leaves the zone. I think they were concerned in this instance with the possibility that the boat might leave the zone "sideways" ie because she was below the mark, not having passed close to it and then held her course.

I think the general consensus among the rule gods here (I am not one) is that once a boat is leaving the mark (ie sailing away from it), the mark room obligation is over, even within the zone.

As to which boat size defines the zone, this is covered in the definition:

Zone The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the
boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.



#14 Brass

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:09 AM

Have a look at the case book (online at ISAF website) and in particular case 15 regarding your situation.

CASE 15
In tacking to round a mark, a boat clear ahead must comply with rule 13; a
boat clear astern is entitled to hold her course and thereby prevent the other
from tacking.

I don't think Case 15 applies to OP scenario.

Case 15 applies to a boat 'tacking to round a mark'. In the OP scenario, Boat 1 has rounded the mark before she tacks.

Note however it can be a bit misleading as it implies that mark room continues until the boat entitled to mark room leaves the zone. I think they were concerned in this instance with the possibility that the boat might leave the zone "sideways" ie because she was below the mark, not having passed close to it and then held her course.

I think the general consensus among the rule gods here (I am not one) is that once a boat is leaving the mark (ie sailing away from it), the mark room obligation is over, even within the zone.

There is nothing 'misleading' about Case 15, and there is absolutely no suggestion that an entitlement to mark-room or an obligation to give mark-room ceases once a boat is 'leaving' the mark.

The only way the entitlement/obligation for mark-room ceases is when rule 18 ceases to apply, which is when one of the conditions in rule 18.1 is true (or when rule 18.3 applies and the tacking boat is not overlapped outside).

Otherwise it absolutely is the case that the entitlement to mark-room and the obligation to give mark-room continues while ever at least one boat is in the zone. Thus a boat, entitled to mark-room, that has sailed away from the mark almost, but not quite to the edge of the zone, that is swept back to the mark by, say, current, will once again be entitled to room to sail her proper course while at the mark.

What is true is that when a boat entitled to mark room is not 'taking mark-room to which she is entitled', that is, sailing to the mark, or sailing her proper course at the mark, the boat obliged to give mark-room cannot break the rule.

Another way to say it is that the entitlement to mark-room continues, but the entitlement has no 'content' after the entitled boat has passed and is no longer at the mark.

As to which boat size defines the zone, this is covered in the definition:

Zone The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the
boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

Yup

#15 xyzzy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

You don't have to worry about the nuance of "AT" the mark anymore, as that was removed from the 2013 rules' definition of mark-room.

The the 2009-2012 rules, while R18 still applied while a boat was in the zone, mark-room effectively ended once a boat was leaving the mark. You got room to sail to the mark, even if your proper course didn't sailing any closer to the mark then you already were, and then room to round while at the mark. Once the mark was left astern and no longer had any bearing on the boat's course, then the boat is no longer at the mark rounding it.

The new definition gives a boat "room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course." No one is quite sure what that means yet.




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