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A new hull to carve...a WLYDO collaboration

Mungs pride and joy

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#1 Gatekeeper

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:56 PM

I've just started to clear my bench to make way for this beauty...2 hulls are waiting for final painting so it's time to make some dust.

The perfect combination of style, performance and grace, McCurdy Rhodes Custom 46.

Bob and Rasp are heavily involved in this hull and in one day have produced an amazing set of lines and renderings....I'll post a few once Rasp sends me the final product.

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#2 WHL

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:11 PM

Great boat with a really fine, clean edge on the stem. I'm sure you'll do it justice GK. B)

#3 Gatekeeper

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:27 PM

Great boat with a really fine, clean edge on the stem. I'm sure you'll do it justice GK. B)


If I don't Bob gets cranky with me.

#4 Gatekeeper

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

Interested in having a hull model carved...my professional staff is eagerly awaiting your call.

:D

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#5 Salazar

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

This is going to be one beautiful half hull...

Posted Image

#6 Salazar

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

The curves on this one are going to keep you busy Gate. A few photos:

Posted ImagePosted Image

#7 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

Man oh man, what a Beautiful paint job. This boat reminds me of why I wanted to become a yacht designer.

#8 WHL

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

Many many hours and variations went into the color scheme. It has a mesmerizing Row Away Factor... thankfully you face aft when rowing !!
It started with a grey and moved to blue with various boot top and cove iterations. The final looks right
Attached File  mccurdy rhodes-46-v3-profile-final.jpg   154.88K   27 downloads
Attached File  mccurdy rhodes-46-v4-whisper gr coach-white boot gold cove.jpg   49.32K   27 downloads

#9 Gatekeeper

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:33 AM

WHL

I remember this thread clearly, but never made the connection...the final product looks amazing. She is a beautiful boat. I guess this is a continuation of a WLYDO project.

Sal

If the lines are right the curves will just happen.

I'm learning that very good carvers, have very good lines. If the lines are sketchy they I have to start extrapolating (it's a word!) and then the best I can hope for is an acceptable average.

Like someone here once said "lines are your friend"....

RASP does amazing work. If anyone here is considering carving their own hull, get the lines from Rasp. You'll not be sorry!

#10 Tucky

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:35 AM

Every time I see one of these boats I remember how safe I felt on my first trip to Bermuda in 1986 on Alacrity, a 43' or so McCurdy and Rhodes built of aluminum by Paul Luke. We weren't the fastest, although Selkie (sp) still gets around the course pretty well, but I sure felt I was on a proper cruiser-racer that could take what the ocean offered.

Nice nice boat.

#11 Cavelamb

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:01 AM

Man oh man, what a Beautiful paint job. This boat reminds me of why I wanted to become a yacht designer.


It does hold you eye, doesn't it...

#12 Gatekeeper

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

I have a white boat....but I have never heard anyone say "wow...did you see the beautiful white boat"

The WLYDO paint dept nailed it.

#13 fastyacht

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:28 PM

I've just started to clear my bench to make way for this beauty...2 hulls are waiting for final painting so it's time to make some dust.

The perfect combination of style, performance and grace, McCurdy Rhodes Custom 46.

Bob and Rasp are heavily involved in this hull and in one day have produced an amazing set of lines and renderings....I'll post a few once Rasp sends me the final product.


Haha Essex Boat Works. I know where that is. Nice boat, too.

#14 Rasputin22

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:25 PM

Here is an ugly white boat.

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#15 WHL

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:39 PM

Nice 3D .. makes you want to be a water molecule !!

#16 Rasputin22

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:07 AM

Nice 3D .. makes you want to be a water molecule !!


Hi WHL,

I figured you would give me a hard time for a white hull. I just sent the file off to Bob and Gates and am altering the paint jog to match you Navy/Royal blue. Her are a couple of Octane renders in white until then.
Uploader only let me do one for now...Attached File  CarinaPS.jpg   74.18K   29 downloads

#17 Rasputin22

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:08 AM

One more before she goes into the paint shed.

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#18 Cavelamb

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:55 AM

WoW!

#19 kimbottles

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:02 AM

I have a white boat....but I have never heard anyone say "wow...did you see the beautiful white boat"

The WLYDO paint dept nailed it.


Yes, actually we quite often heard people say that about this white boat, they still do......

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#20 Gatekeeper

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:41 AM

Kim

Ok I'll give ya that one.

#21 Rasputin22

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:42 AM

Having a hard time keeping these 3dPDF's under the SA 1 MB limit for uploads. They look really nice with the reference profile that I used to model but that image pushes it over the limit. Bob is having trouble opening these as well and it would be helpful if any of you here get a blank screen when trying to open these please let me know. I'll do another in WHL's color scheme and then share some Octane renders.

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#22 Salazar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:27 AM

I get the blank screen every time I open one of these but I just have to tap the mouse on the small triangle that appears at the top left corner (just under the "C" in C3 Design) a tool bar appears for a second and the hull appears and I can view it and spin it around at will.

#23 Mung Breath

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:09 AM

Yes, she's certainly been adopted by the WLYDO with invaluable input by people here on CA that I respect and have become friends with as a result. Her refit went from a sprint to a long, seemingly endless and unintended marathon. The CA' comaraderie played a huge role in sustaining my stamina at crucial times and with generous contributions of talent. Ras and Gate are extending that passion and I'm most humbled and appreciative. We are all very lucky to share in this community.

Let me point out that technically speaking, CdE and CARINA are not sisterships. CARINA (48' LOA) was launched in '68. Based on her winning the '70 Bermuda Race, three 46'+ custom'daughter ships' were commissioned in NY later that year: SITZMARK (CdE) (Walter Nueman), FROYA and ZEST (Irving Pratt). Each of these boats is slightly different in LOA, draft, beam, coach house and rig but the differences are subtle nuances. SITZMARK and ZEST were built in the US by different builders of aluminum, FROYA in NL of fiberglass. All four boats have virtually identical layouts. Like CARINA, all three were built by seasoned competitors specifically for long distance ocean racing. One gets a sense that these are 'sailor's sailboats' and I can attest that they excel at nothing but do everything well. If they excel at anything it is by today's standards, superb sea motion. Over a long distance, this pays huge dividends.

So keep up the good work, Gate, Ras and Bob! It's always a joy to share this passion with like-minded (but more skillful) artisans.
Thank you and I look forward to seeing the progress!

BTW...colors are Carinthia Blue and Whisper Gray!

#24 Rasputin22

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:11 AM

Thanks for the clue Sal. Not sure why that is, Bob will love to hear he is not the only one who this is happening to. He just chastised me for not sending files that 'normal' people could view. Not sure why he would want to be considered 'normal' we all know better, but I promised I'd get this 3dPDF thing figured out because he of all people will love to see the perspectives from the model. You can zoom in and out with your scroll wheel too. I'll try and post the help files for these things.

For you normal viewers, here is a flat file from Octane. Love that contrasting wood. I keep trying to convince Gate do do one bright like this.

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#25 Rasputin22

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:23 AM

Yes, she's certainly been adopted by the WLYDO with invaluable input by people here on CA that I respect and have become friends with as a result. Her refit went from a sprint to a long, seemingly endless and unintended marathon. The CA' comaraderie played a huge role in sustaining my stamina at crucial times and with generous contributions of talent. Ras and Gate are extending that passion and I'm most humbled and appreciative. We are all very lucky to share in this community.


So keep up the good work, Gate, Ras and Bob! It's always a joy to share this passion with like-minded (but more skillful) artisans.
Thank you and I look forward to seeing the progress!

BTW...colors are Carinthia Blue and Whisper Gray!


Now he tells me!

Thanks Mung.

I'm getting close to getting the lift files together for Gate, and then I'll play around with your color scheme. So your boat is still named Carina? I'll do her name and hailing port on the transom if you know the font. If not a good photo and I'll pick something close. Somebody her might chime, Sons is pretty good at playing 'Name That Font'.

#26 Mung Breath

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:28 AM


Yes, she's certainly been adopted by the WLYDO with invaluable input by people here on CA that I respect and have become friends with as a result. Her refit went from a sprint to a long, seemingly endless and unintended marathon. The CA' comaraderie played a huge role in sustaining my stamina at crucial times and with generous contributions of talent. Ras and Gate are extending that passion and I'm most humbled and appreciative. We are all very lucky to share in this community.


So keep up the good work, Gate, Ras and Bob! It's always a joy to share this passion with like-minded (but more skillful) artisans.
Thank you and I look forward to seeing the progress!

BTW...colors are Carinthia Blue and Whisper Gray!


Now he tells me!

Thanks Mung.

I'm getting close to getting the lift files together for Gate, and then I'll play around with your color scheme. So your boat is still named Carina? I'll do her name and hailing port on the transom if you know the font. If not a good photo and I'll pick something close. Somebody her might chime, Sons is pretty good at playing 'Name That Font'.


Rasp - no, her name was originally SITZMARK and now is COUP D'ETAT ;) CARINA has always been CARINA.

#27 Rasputin22

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:40 AM

Then I need to scale her down to 46'? The files I just send Gates would produce a scaled model of 2'5" LOA. Anyway, here is another render.

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#28 Rasputin22

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:00 AM

For those interested, I was just getting the lowdown on Carina and her near sisters. I wanted to show Mung how I did the final shaping of the transom using a photo and a technique call 'perspective matching' right in the 3d CAD program. I did this from different angles using different photos but this one illustrates clearly how useful this method is.

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#29 Rasputin22

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:10 AM

Done for the night, maybe I'll knock out a simple deckhouse and cockpit and do some more renders tomorrow. Mission accomplished as far as getting some lift templates for Gate to get printed and start making sawdust.

I bet Gates doesn't get away with varnishing his models on the kitchen counter like I do in my virtual modelshop! Cleans up real fast. Ctrl+Save and then ShutDown...

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#30 Mung Breath

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

Then I need to scale her down to 46'? The files I just send Gates would produce a scaled model of 2'5" LOA. Anyway, here is another render.


Technically, she's 46'6" ;)

#31 Mung Breath

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:38 PM

I'm bumping this to the top in hopes that Rasp will post and share some of the incredible CAD work he's done over the past week (with the help of Gate's. Bob P., Frank Luke, Ian McCurdy, Geoff van Gorkom and sisterships' FROYA, LEGEND (ex-ZEST) and CARINA to reverse-engineer and NAIL the lines of CDE from an assortment of photo's and feedback sessions. Anyone in need of forensic marine or new design CAD work would be wise to reach out to Rasp. Highly recommended.

Hopefully he'll post and that talent will speak for itself! I can hardly wait to see the carved result from Gate!

#32 Rasputin22

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:36 AM

Well, I just wasted a half hour responding here on an update on the Coup D'Etat progress and story and somehow it all just evaporated when I tried to attach an couple of the latest renderings. Really pissed me off and it makes one not want to share, when ones carefully scripted responses are on such thin ice. I did everything to get back what I had just written to no avail, I'm disappointed that this could happen and won't waste my time here if this keeps happening. I feel better copy pasting my correspondence with Mung and Gates and Bob from our emails since the new webgroup software is so iffy. I've read others complaining about this sort of issues and now understand what their bitching is all about. For what its worth, here is a recent render of the project, you will just miss all the back story of how I found an original half model buried in the dust of a New England boatyard. Some mysteries are best left untold I guess!

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#33 WHL

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:53 AM

Very nice

#34 Boomberries

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:02 AM

snip


She's a dream ship Gate. You dream about owning her you dream about dropping into one of those pilot berths after a 4-8 watch you dream about walking under her on the hard and wonder were will the water flow and resistance build. Big time eye candy.

I was very fortunate to spend a fair bit of time sailing on this beauty, a few months ago. I will say that the only positive in stepping off her, was that it gave one an opportunity to see her graceful lines and sexy ass, while rowing away. The beauty is definitely not just skin deep.

From her bow through to the berth, she is a classy, beautiful, comfortable and a well sailing boat.

Mung, does this look like me trying to drown out the sounds of rummaging? ;)

I look forward to seeing the half hull model take shape. Nice work rasp

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#35 Rasputin22

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:08 AM

Thanks WHL,

I got so frustrated to lose the who narrative on how this project has come about and my contacting the son of the builder who then went out into the storage shed and found the original half hull model! And then offered to ship it to me to verify me efforts at trying to re-construct the lines for this fine example of the heyday of the IOR. I know that you have had the privilege of sailing on her and I'm sure that you will understand my desire to do justice in this reverse engineering of the model for Gates to create a half model. Mung has encouraged me to share my tale of sleuthing to unravel some of the mysteries of Carina and her sisterships. Quite a tale and one that I will share if I can trust this webforum software to not unceremoniously throw me and my verbage out on our asses! Not sure what happened last time, but I was trying to attach my last renders. I'll be more careful in the future...

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#36 Ishmael

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:14 AM

If it's important, write it in Word or something, then copy and paste. I did manage to find the saved version of one of my lengthier posts using the forum software and reinstated it, but I wouldn't count on it.

#37 Rasputin22

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:20 AM

snip


She's a dream ship Gate. You dream about owning her you dream about dropping into one of those pilot berths after a 4-8 watch you dream about walking under her on the hard and wonder were will the water flow and resistance build. Big time eye candy.

I was very fortunate to spend a fair bit of time sailing on this beauty, a few months ago. I will say that the only positive in stepping off her, was that it gave one an opportunity to see her graceful lines and sexy ass, while rowing away. The beauty is definitely not just skin deep.

From her bow through to the berth, she is a classy, beautiful, comfortable and a well sailing boat.

Mung, does this look like me trying to drown out the sounds of rummaging? ;)

I look forward to seeing the half hull model take shape. Nice work rasp


Thanks Boom!

Nice to see you chime in hear and I hope to get to see the lady in question (Coup D' Etat) myself next summer. She certainly deserves my utmost effort and I'm sure that Gates will do her justice as well.

Rasp

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#38 WHL

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:08 AM

snip


She's a dream ship Gate. You dream about owning her you dream about dropping into one of those pilot berths after a 4-8 watch you dream about walking under her on the hard and wonder were will the water flow and resistance build. Big time eye candy.

I was very fortunate to spend a fair bit of time sailing on this beauty, a few months ago. I will say that the only positive in stepping off her, was that it gave one an opportunity to see her graceful lines and sexy ass, while rowing away. The beauty is definitely not just skin deep.

From her bow through to the berth, she is a classy, beautiful, comfortable and a well sailing boat.

Mung, does this look like me trying to drown out the sounds of rummaging? ;)

I look forward to seeing the half hull model take shape. Nice work rasp

Mung, wasn't that a pic of a small bear growling and snorting !! :D

#39 Mung Breath

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:44 PM

Attached File  WHL in His Element.jpg   99.83K   16 downloads


snip


She's a dream ship Gate. You dream about owning her you dream about dropping into one of those pilot berths after a 4-8 watch you dream about walking under her on the hard and wonder were will the water flow and resistance build. Big time eye candy.

I was very fortunate to spend a fair bit of time sailing on this beauty, a few months ago. I will say that the only positive in stepping off her, was that it gave one an opportunity to see her graceful lines and sexy ass, while rowing away. The beauty is definitely not just skin deep.

From her bow through to the berth, she is a classy, beautiful, comfortable and a well sailing boat.

Mung, does this look like me trying to drown out the sounds of rummaging? ;)

I look forward to seeing the half hull model take shape. Nice work rasp

Mung, wasn't that a pic of a small bear growling and snorting !! :D


Let's just say it was a cacaphony of human trumpets, led by the off-watch Mystery Squirrel conductor! :)

#40 Mung Breath

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:05 PM


snip


She's a dream ship Gate. You dream about owning her you dream about dropping into one of those pilot berths after a 4-8 watch you dream about walking under her on the hard and wonder were will the water flow and resistance build. Big time eye candy.

I was very fortunate to spend a fair bit of time sailing on this beauty, a few months ago. I will say that the only positive in stepping off her, was that it gave one an opportunity to see her graceful lines and sexy ass, while rowing away. The beauty is definitely not just skin deep.

From her bow through to the berth, she is a classy, beautiful, comfortable and a well sailing boat.

Mung, does this look like me trying to drown out the sounds of rummaging? ;)

I look forward to seeing the half hull model take shape. Nice work rasp


Thanks Boom!

Nice to see you chime in hear and I hope to get to see the lady in question (Coup D' Etat) myself next summer. She certainly deserves my utmost effort and I'm sure that Gates will do her justice as well.

Rasp


Rasp - I see you jumped to the punch line!

In the course of 'discovery', Rasp stumbled across the photo of a sistership (ex-Zest) in Louisiana undergoing a major, surgical refit. The story line included a new rudder design by Geoff van Gorkom/NA in Newport, RI. Coincidentally, Bob and I had been informally kicking this around for a while. Geoff was kind enough to send me the rendering to which Bob gave an eyeball thumbs up. Geoff is now soliciting quotes. Low and behold, I wake up this morning to see that Rasp has not only included it in the CAD design but improved upon it!

The model will be built with the original rudder design. But from a performance point of view, this rudder is worth a serious think.

#41 WHL

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:56 PM

Your existing helm with a longer chord but lower aspect ratio, has a positive feel downwind for course corrections in waves, while being light upwind. Given how early IOR hull shapes get a bit hairy off the wind in big air and waves, and need more aggressive helm correction at times, I wonder if the high aspect ratio of the new rudder will feel like stalling with the same amount of helm correction in waves..

#42 Salazar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:56 PM

Your existing helm with a longer chord but lower aspect ratio, has a positive feel downwind for course corrections in waves, while being light upwind. Given how early IOR hull shapes get a bit hairy off the wind in big air and waves, and need more aggressive helm correction at times, I wonder if the high aspect ratio of the new rudder will feel like stalling with the same amount of helm correction in waves..


I'm just eyeballing it but it looks to me like the max. chord of the proposed rudder has been reduced by only about 15% (if that much) but the effective area is about 140% (or more?) of the existing one? And there is now some rudder ahead of the shaft to give it some balance to offset the "heaviness" of the increased area? With the extra power in this new rudder, less helm correction should be required in the same conditions, no?

#43 WHL

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:10 PM


Your existing helm with a longer chord but lower aspect ratio, has a positive feel downwind for course corrections in waves, while being light upwind. Given how early IOR hull shapes get a bit hairy off the wind in big air and waves, and need more aggressive helm correction at times, I wonder if the high aspect ratio of the new rudder will feel like stalling with the same amount of helm correction in waves..


I'm just eyeballing it but it looks to me like the max. chord of the proposed rudder has been reduced by only about 15% (if that much) but the effective area is about 140% (or more?) of the existing one? And there is now some rudder ahead of the shaft to give it some balance to offset the "heaviness" of the increased area? With the extra power in this new rudder, less helm correction should be required in the same conditions, no?


Yes I see what you're saying, but going from the feel of the boat and how it moves off the wind in waves in particular, my gut tells me the higher aspect ratio might feel light and stall more than the current longer chord length. When I turned down a wave, I found the boat had a tendency to keep turning down and needed some anticipation and a turn up earlier than you might on a modern hull shape. Don't get me wrong, the higher aspect ratio rudder in itself.is a better foil for sure, but paired with the behaviour of the boat in a seaway, it just looked like it lacked a little chord length over its entire length.

Because of the way the boat goes to windward with the rake and weather helm it has, it's a real treat with the current rudder so I am not sure the new one would make a radical difference.

I'd be interested in Mung's thoughts on the feel aspect downwind too.

Edit: calling Rasp calling Rasp.... can you overlay the old and new rudders on a quick drawing with some dimensions?

#44 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:19 PM

It appeared that the boat had a big trim tab originally. Will that be retained? I've always love trim tabs in boats of this vintage - they make the boats so sweet to drive upwind.

BV

#45 WHL

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

The trim tab is no longer functional (and it carries penalties that probably aren't worth it under current handicap rules.

#46 Rasputin22

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:31 PM

I've tried to stay close on the rudder area so as to not hurt light air performance due to additional wetted surface. The original rudder is about 12 sq ft and the newer semi spade is a bit over 13.5 sq ft.

I just checked the balance ratio for the new rudder and it is right about 15% and I'm hoping Bob will chime in on this figure. I once designed a set of rudders for a high speed wave piercing catamaran ferry boat and got into huge debate of the balance ratio. I think I was using the recommended figure from Lars Larrsons 'Principles of Yacht Design' and got vetoed and but the rudder shaft at the thickest point of the foil section as instructed. As penance for questioning the bosses judgement, I actually got to build the rudders myself, which was sort of like Brer Rabbit, 'Please don't throw me in the brair patch!' I think he suspected I was planning on bonding the rudder post into the foils in a 'compromise' position and he insisted that it be placed right at 45% from the leading edge. Needless to say that those rudders would suddenly overcome the hydraulic relief valves in the steering system and go hard over to the stops if one turned too far too quickly. You couldn't get the boat back on course without coming to a near stop and then a couple of full turns stop to stop would get the twin rudders back in synch but it was a major FU. Cavitation from the props also soon eroded the paint and fairing compound on the rudders and they were replaced with metal blades with a 20% lead on the balance.

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#47 Mung Breath

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:49 PM

Actually, the long rudder portrayed is Rasp's rendition but not the one sent to me by Geoff van Gorkom and given a quick nod by Bob (quote requests were sent to six yards today). Geoff's is smaller and less balanced. I hate to ask anything more of the Raspmeister but I'd sure like to see Geoff's version and hear feedback.

WHL - until you arrived in July, I never drove the boat downwind with any gusto. First time she had a chute up with the tall rig was with you and Booms! Previously, we poled out the 135%. So your observation is probably accurate. IMO, although her helm requires far more anticipation than reaction, her action is always predictable if not foregiving. If one has been driving a Farr 400 all day and comes aboard, he might wonder if the cable/chain is connected! But I find that she has no squirrelly tendencies, no obvious bad behavior...just lethargic helm response that helm time can cure. I can even live with minimal steerage under power in reverse. So why do this? The gain is in tracking accuracy over long distances (100-635 mile windward races). She points just fine already but doesn't always hold those gains because of yaw. Some of that is simply staying overcanvased too long. Guestimate is she'd point a few degrees higher and sail straighter.

BV - I'm chomping at the bit to try the tab. The barn door rudder and tab are a system, right? It was disabled at time of refit (hadn't been used since 1975!). I have to believe that reactivating the tab (and I have the actual IRC rating delta numbers) would make steerage come to life and reduce some of the rudder angle.

#48 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

Here is a look at Van Gorkums rudder for the sister ship in Louisiana. It has very little area projected forward of the rudder pivot axis but I'm not sure that would be an issue. The areas he lists seem to be lower than what I have and his rudder is even shorter in chord but there could be some scaling issues here.

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#49 WHL

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:24 AM

Mung, I agree that she needs a little anticipation than reaction which is ok. It puts hairs on the chest when you "have a bit on" and is typical of the hull form.
All round, I thought she felt fine but that could have been heavily influenced by the woodie helming her and looking at your new rags and the asymm :D

#50 Salazar

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:35 AM

Well, so much for my A1 eyeball. I wasn't too wrong on the difference in chord length but the Rasp's rudder is only 12 - 13% bigger? Hmm. Maybe it is time for glasses...

On the Van Gorkums rudder, is the area above the pivot, ahead of the rudder post part of the rudder or is the to be added to the skeg to fill in that area? It seems to me it would have to be part of the skeg but I'm not certain, looking at the drawing. New vertical rudder post too. Hmm..

#51 Mung Breath

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:41 AM

Well, so much for my A1 eyeball. I wasn't too wrong on the difference in chord length but the Rasp's rudder is only 12 - 13% bigger? Hmm. Maybe it is time for glasses...

On the Van Gorkums rudder, is the area above the pivot, ahead of the rudder post part of the rudder or is the to be added to the skeg to fill in that area? It seems to me it would have to be part of the skeg but I'm not certain, looking at the drawing. New vertical rudder post too. Hmm..


There's no gaurantee that the rudder/post Geoff drew for ZEST/LEGEND will actually fit CDE 'as is'. These boats were all custom. With the former, the swap requires only a slight modification to the skeg bottom but otherwise is 'plug/play'. I'm looking at the same post trajectory 'mis-alignment' that you are. Principle might be the same though...with a tweak.

#52 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:43 AM

I've turned my rudder back on and colored it red to distinguish from the Van Gorkum proposal. This shows how the semi-balanced nature of the red rudder add considerably to the chord length and is closer to the original 'barndoor' rudder and would help alleviate some of WHL's concerns about the helm and response rate. This rudder is actually very close to the section and foil that I used with Bob on his Swedish client double ended 45'er. Bob had drawn a skeg mounted semi spade but was trying to talk the client out of it in favor of a full spade. I had originally copy/pasted in the spade rudder from the Catari project that Bob's engineer in Montenegro had done, but there were some rake issues to get the emergency steering access into the cockpit sole. In the course of working all that out I was researching Jefa self-aligning top bearings with a nifty integral emergency access plate and discovered the wide range of stock foils they offer. After talking with the US agent he gave me access to the FTP library of all the rudder blade molds they have and can mold rudders from. I went shopping and matched an existing rudder foil that met out needs and this rudder I have proposed for Coup D'Etat is just a trimmed version of that. I think it used a NACA 0018 at the top and tapered down to a NACA 0014 at the tip. The US agent told me that our Swedish client could probably buy direct from the factory in Sweden at a considerable savings and gave me his price imported into the US and I was surprised at how affordable it was. I had seen one of their rudders on the docks in St Martin last Xmas for a Hanse 45 that a bareboat charterer had piled on the reef. They had just pulled it out of the shipping crate and had a diver in the water to install and I was impressed with quality of the foil and what I could see of the stock. It will be interesting to look at the quotes for a custom aluminum rudder and compare with an almost 'off the shelf' solution from Jefa.

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#53 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:48 AM

Mung,

If WHL says the rating isn't worth it, I'd take his word for it. You might not want to exert the effort to get it working agin. I drove some meter boats and IOR boats that had tabs and their great strength, in my opinion, is in trimming the boat out so that some of the weather helm gets turned into an attempt to make the keel a curved foil. However, because the tab is so much further forward, if you try to trim too much helm out of her you'll drag the tab through the water hard which is slow. Also, a tab at the bottom of the keel causes the boat to heel over to leeward, just as deeper rudder do.

The boats I sailed had much higher aspect ration tabs than this one, but it really did make going upwind feel like your were driving a knife through the water. Downwind it had no effect at all.

BV

#54 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:00 AM

Well, so much for my A1 eyeball. I wasn't too wrong on the difference in chord length but the Rasp's rudder is only 12 - 13% bigger? Hmm. Maybe it is time for glasses...

On the Van Gorkums rudder, is the area above the pivot, ahead of the rudder post part of the rudder or is the to be added to the skeg to fill in that area? It seems to me it would have to be part of the skeg but I'm not certain, looking at the drawing. New vertical rudder post too. Hmm..


The near vertical rudder post has been a ongoing mystery thoughout this project. It seems that Carina (48' LOA) the mothership that spawned at least four 'daughterships' (46' LOA) underwent major modifications thoughout her illustrious career. I'll attach a composite of two image taken directly off of M&R's webpage. The vertical rudder appears to have popped up on a sail plan dated 1980 and I don't think that 'Sitzmark/Coup D'Etat' ever had any changes made to her rudder. She did under go some major IOR 'bumping' as I was told last week by Frank Luke the son of Paul the builder that when they did an overhaul to CdE in the early 80's that they ground off up to 6 inches of foam and fairing and that she is now very close to the hull form of her original build. This is a great example of the extremes that the everchanging IOR rule promoted.

I think that Mung, Bob, and I are all in agreement in that any new rudder will need to require no changes to the skeg, steering gear, and quadrant other that perhaps some modification to the rudder horn (gudgeon) at the bottom of the skeg which hold the bottom bearing of the rudder post. Van Gorkum notes the modified horn in his drawings and my vision is to configure the horn to allow the foil to project forward of the axis giving the semi-balanced rudder form.

I also feel that any such modification should not be irreversable, in that if a future owner wants the original rudder for its 'pedigree' value that would be possible. I think the old rudder would look great mounted over Mungs fireplace alongside Gates model...

Heck, even vasectomies are can be reversed these days!

#55 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:05 AM

Mung,

If WHL says the rating isn't worth it, I'd take his word for it. You might not want to exert the effort to get it working agin. I drove some meter boats and IOR boats that had tabs and their great strength, in my opinion, is in trimming the boat out so that some of the weather helm gets turned into an attempt to make the keel a curved foil. However, because the tab is so much further forward, if you try to trim too much helm out of her you'll drag the tab through the water hard which is slow. Also, a tab at the bottom of the keel causes the boat to heel over to leeward, just as deeper rudder do.

The boats I sailed had much higher aspect ration tabs than this one, but it really did make going upwind feel like your were driving a knife through the water. Downwind it had no effect at all.

BV


I'll have to vote with Beau on this issue. Look at that trim tab, it is a barndoor if there ever was one! I do have visions of (not sugar plums) some nice little winglets sprouting from that keel tab though. Forgive me, I'm a sailplane pilot and winglets are a real measure of just how cool you and your craft really are. Fact is they add a lot for a sailplane and I'm always thinking of adding them to my humble little 12.6 meter cafe racer sailplane.

#56 Gatekeeper

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:09 AM

Boy...it's a good thing Mung asked me to carve him a hull. We may put the entire sailing industry back on it's feet again!!

Well done guys. This is amazing to watch evolve.

#57 Mung Breath

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:10 AM


Mung,

If WHL says the rating isn't worth it, I'd take his word for it. You might not want to exert the effort to get it working agin. I drove some meter boats and IOR boats that had tabs and their great strength, in my opinion, is in trimming the boat out so that some of the weather helm gets turned into an attempt to make the keel a curved foil. However, because the tab is so much further forward, if you try to trim too much helm out of her you'll drag the tab through the water hard which is slow. Also, a tab at the bottom of the keel causes the boat to heel over to leeward, just as deeper rudder do.

The boats I sailed had much higher aspect ration tabs than this one, but it really did make going upwind feel like your were driving a knife through the water. Downwind it had no effect at all.

BV


I'll have to vote with Beau on this issue. Look at that trim tab, it is a barndoor if there ever was one! I do have visions of (not sugar plums) some nice little winglets sprouting from that keel tab though. Forgive me, I'm a sailplane pilot and winglets are a real measure of just how cool you and your craft really are. Fact is they add a lot for a sailplane and I'm always thinking of adding them to my humble little 12.6 meter cafe racer sailplane.


All - the IRC rating WITH the tab is 1.006...WITHOUT is .996. Not insignificant. No rating hit for a more efficient rudder. :)

#58 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:27 AM



Mung,

If WHL says the rating isn't worth it, I'd take his word for it. You might not want to exert the effort to get it working agin. I drove some meter boats and IOR boats that had tabs and their great strength, in my opinion, is in trimming the boat out so that some of the weather helm gets turned into an attempt to make the keel a curved foil. However, because the tab is so much further forward, if you try to trim too much helm out of her you'll drag the tab through the water hard which is slow. Also, a tab at the bottom of the keel causes the boat to heel over to leeward, just as deeper rudder do.

The boats I sailed had much higher aspect ration tabs than this one, but it really did make going upwind feel like your were driving a knife through the water. Downwind it had no effect at all.

BV


I'll have to vote with Beau on this issue. Look at that trim tab, it is a barndoor if there ever was one! I do have visions of (not sugar plums) some nice little winglets sprouting from that keel tab though. Forgive me, I'm a sailplane pilot and winglets are a real measure of just how cool you and your craft really are. Fact is they add a lot for a sailplane and I'm always thinking of adding them to my humble little 12.6 meter cafe racer sailplane.


All - the IRC rating WITH the tab is 1.006...WITHOUT is .996. Not insignificant. No rating hit for a more efficient rudder. :)


If you don't have to take a rating hit with the new rudder, then go for it! I would have thought that they would slap you around pretty good for it. I was once a measurer down in the Virgin Islands for the Carribean Racing Association (CYA) and they had a provision where a measurer could make an arbitrary adjustment to a rating based on the 'Hot' factor. After all the careful measurements and calculations were done, if a rudder or keel or even the hull looked 'hot' to the measurer he could further penalize the boat on a scale of 1 to 5. I thought it was a joke when I took the training, but they were serious! If I were measuring this rudder (the red Rasp rudder) I'd hit it with a big 5 on the hot factor and you would be crying all the way to the bar. Seriously though, the CYA rule is the oldest yacht racing rule currently in use and while the stateside boats may moan and groan that it is skewed to the local boats, it does a pretty good job in some of the best racing conditions on earth. Perhaps WHL and I can join you for the circuit down there in the future...

#59 Mung Breath

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:17 AM




Mung,

If WHL says the rating isn't worth it, I'd take his word for it. You might not want to exert the effort to get it working agin. I drove some meter boats and IOR boats that had tabs and their great strength, in my opinion, is in trimming the boat out so that some of the weather helm gets turned into an attempt to make the keel a curved foil. However, because the tab is so much further forward, if you try to trim too much helm out of her you'll drag the tab through the water hard which is slow. Also, a tab at the bottom of the keel causes the boat to heel over to leeward, just as deeper rudder do.

The boats I sailed had much higher aspect ration tabs than this one, but it really did make going upwind feel like your were driving a knife through the water. Downwind it had no effect at all.

BV


I'll have to vote with Beau on this issue. Look at that trim tab, it is a barndoor if there ever was one! I do have visions of (not sugar plums) some nice little winglets sprouting from that keel tab though. Forgive me, I'm a sailplane pilot and winglets are a real measure of just how cool you and your craft really are. Fact is they add a lot for a sailplane and I'm always thinking of adding them to my humble little 12.6 meter cafe racer sailplane.


All - the IRC rating WITH the tab is 1.006...WITHOUT is .996. Not insignificant. No rating hit for a more efficient rudder. :)


If you don't have to take a rating hit with the new rudder, then go for it! I would have thought that they would slap you around pretty good for it. I was once a measurer down in the Virgin Islands for the Carribean Racing Association (CYA) and they had a provision where a measurer could make an arbitrary adjustment to a rating based on the 'Hot' factor. After all the careful measurements and calculations were done, if a rudder or keel or even the hull looked 'hot' to the measurer he could further penalize the boat on a scale of 1 to 5. I thought it was a joke when I took the training, but they were serious! If I were measuring this rudder (the red Rasp rudder) I'd hit it with a big 5 on the hot factor and you would be crying all the way to the bar. Seriously though, the CYA rule is the oldest yacht racing rule currently in use and while the stateside boats may moan and groan that it is skewed to the local boats, it does a pretty good job in some of the best racing conditions on earth. Perhaps WHL and I can join you for the circuit down there in the future...


You guys both have standing invitations...Bob too.....to WLIS/New England!

#60 WHL

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:59 AM

Rasp,
re: the semi balanced portion below the skeg: some minor detail: Mung will need a prod protruding downwards in front of that seam to stop kelp, lobster pot lines, trash etc getting trapped in there.
Now that you have overlaid the rudders and highlighted your version, I think that looks good compared to the other new rudder, and the semi balanced lleading edge at the bottom will give some more chord, bite and offwind control. :)

#61 WHL

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

Before trying the trim tab for lift (and taking the rating hit), I'd work on building in more inherent weather helm if it need more for pointing.
Lastly, on offshore races with probably more offwind legs, the trim tab would be unneccessry, yet you would be carrying a handicap bogey around the course that might only have benefit in a narrow wind angle band upwind.

#62 Cruisin Loser

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:19 AM

Gate - this will be beautiful, she's not your first Jim McCurdy model. Sparky, on which you did such a lovely job, is also an M&R design. Your model of her is my pride and joy, one of the first things I point out to guests in our home. (THANKS BOOMS!)

Rasps, I'd love to get you out on Sparky sometime. I'm working ahead to spend 3 months aboard next summer. She's not Cd'E, but she doesn't suck.

Our current plan is to sail New England, Bermuda and NS this coming summer, then have her trucked to the PNW for summer 2014. I've always wanted to sail the area, but want to do it on my own boat. I certainly hope to reconnect with Booms and WHL then.

#63 WHL

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:33 AM

Sparky will look great on the left coast too !! How about trucking as far as San Franciso, doing the Pac Cup to Hawaii, then delivery to PNW? What a way to arrive.. seeing Tatoosh Island and the Olympic Mountains, Vancouver Island, after 2 weeks and change from Hawaii... I think you would enjoy that and you'll need 6 weeks, perhaps 7 to do the race and delivery. Valis knows all about that route B)

#64 Boomberries

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

Gate - this will be beautiful, she's not your first Jim McCurdy model. Sparky, on which you did such a lovely job, is also an M&R design. Your model of her is my pride and joy, one of the first things I point out to guests in our home. (THANKS BOOMS!)

Rasps, I'd love to get you out on Sparky sometime. I'm working ahead to spend 3 months aboard next summer. She's not Cd'E, but she doesn't suck.

Our current plan is to sail New England, Bermuda and NS this coming summer, then have her trucked to the PNW for summer 2014. I've always wanted to sail the area, but want to do it on my own boat. I certainly hope to reconnect with Booms and WHL then.

:wub: Sparky! A chunk of my heart will always be hers. Mmmmm
When you first told me of your plans to come out west in 2014, I started compiling a must see cruising guide for you. I hope that you will meet up with VALIS and Ish, and the other wonderful folks sailing out west, here.
I really look forward to seeing you and your family again then CL, if not sooner.
Booms

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#65 Mung Breath

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:28 PM

Gate - this will be beautiful, she's not your first Jim McCurdy model. Sparky, on which you did such a lovely job, is also an M&R design. Your model of her is my pride and joy, one of the first things I point out to guests in our home. (THANKS BOOMS!)

Rasps, I'd love to get you out on Sparky sometime. I'm working ahead to spend 3 months aboard next summer. She's not Cd'E, but she doesn't suck.

Our current plan is to sail New England, Bermuda and NS this coming summer, then have her trucked to the PNW for summer 2014. I've always wanted to sail the area, but want to do it on my own boat. I certainly hope to reconnect with Booms and WHL then.


Very nice, CL....!

#66 Mung Breath

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:31 PM

Before trying the trim tab for lift (and taking the rating hit), I'd work on building in more inherent weather helm if it need more for pointing.
Lastly, on offshore races with probably more offwind legs, the trim tab would be unneccessry, yet you would be carrying a handicap bogey around the course that might only have benefit in a narrow wind angle band upwind.


To Hell with the rating...I just want to feel what the boat has in her soul. We can always tie one arm behind her back for races. But wouldn't it be interesting to feel what the designer had in mind?!

#67 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

Before trying the trim tab for lift (and taking the rating hit), I'd work on building in more inherent weather helm if it need more for pointing.
Lastly, on offshore races with probably more offwind legs, the trim tab would be unneccessry, yet you would be carrying a handicap bogey around the course that might only have benefit in a narrow wind angle band upwind.



I'd agree with WHL. Trim tabs were cool "in the day" but even fairly early in IOR, we glassed one up on a Morgan 54 (Rage) to get the rating advantage. As long as the sailplan was balanced and the rig tuned properly (telephone pole that it was) , I really didn't notice any difference and she trucked upwind on rails. More a late CCA design adapted for IOR ver 1 and 2, similar to CdE for form.

If you're not fighting weather helm upwind, the trim tab is just induced drag and a rating hit.

#68 Gatekeeper

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

Thanks CL...you don't have to say those nice things (but keep up the good work!!)

:P

#69 Alpha FB

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

Occasionally it's good to be reminded why I love sailing boats in the first place. Modern boat shows depress me for the most, the 'bloated tennis shoe' look makes me almost physically ill, and the carbon fibre go faster sleds seem so utterly pointless for anything else but going as fast as possible...

This boat, now this boat, this is what dreams are made of... :wub:

#70 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:39 PM

Alpha,

A lot of people share that distaste for the white-plastic-shoe look and the painful aspects of a GP racer - it's why the idea of racer/cruiser boats appeared. It's not like folks didn't have stripped out racing boats in the 1800s; I've sailed on a few of them and they're worse that the VOR boats of today. But folks made a choice to encourage the incorporation of cruising features into racing boats by type-forming with the handicap rule.

Sadly, since the CCA rule there has been a steady progression to remove the "cruiser" part of the racer/cruiser in most handicap rules. As a result, we've got one burner stoves, freeze dry food, and no paint on the inside of a black carbon boat.... :( In addition, as we've grown to understand how to deal with an tremendous amount of sail area off the wind - being light as become critically important. The ability to deal with the amazing performance of the sleds is predicated on sailing them like large dinghies - one needs to be athletic. These things have lead to the death of designs like the one we're looking at. There are great examples of of boat from a prior era (different handicap rule) that became great cruising boats when their race days were over: Kialoa (all of 'em), Windward Passage, a few 12-meters, Bolero... it's a long list. How many TP-52s do you think will be converted to cruising boats at the end of their run? We're building disposable boats that are treated like lasers - when they get old and soft, or out of date, we just cut them up and send 'em to the tip.

BV

#71 WHL

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:50 PM


Before trying the trim tab for lift (and taking the rating hit), I'd work on building in more inherent weather helm if it need more for pointing.
Lastly, on offshore races with probably more offwind legs, the trim tab would be unneccessry, yet you would be carrying a handicap bogey around the course that might only have benefit in a narrow wind angle band upwind.


To Hell with the rating...I just want to feel what the boat has in her soul. We can always tie one arm behind her back for races. But wouldn't it be interesting to feel what the designer had in mind?!

Mung you old romantic you !!
I agree, forgetting all else, it would be interesting.

#72 Mung Breath

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

Alpha,

A lot of people share that distaste for the white-plastic-shoe look and the painful aspects of a GP racer - it's why the idea of racer/cruiser boats appeared. It's not like folks didn't have stripped out racing boats in the 1800s; I've sailed on a few of them and they're worse that the VOR boats of today. But folks made a choice to encourage the incorporation of cruising features into racing boats by type-forming with the handicap rule.

Sadly, since the CCA rule there has been a steady progression to remove the "cruiser" part of the racer/cruiser in most handicap rules. As a result, we've got one burner stoves, freeze dry food, and no paint on the inside of a black carbon boat.... :( In addition, as we've grown to understand how to deal with an tremendous amount of sail area off the wind - being light as become critically important. The ability to deal with the amazing performance of the sleds is predicated on sailing them like large dinghies - one needs to be athletic. These things have lead to the death of designs like the one we're looking at. There are great examples of of boat from a prior era (different handicap rule) that became great cruising boats when their race days were over: Kialoa (all of 'em), Windward Passage, a few 12-meters, Bolero... it's a long list. How many TP-52s do you think will be converted to cruising boats at the end of their run? We're building disposable boats that are treated like lasers - when they get old and soft, or out of date, we just cut them up and send 'em to the tip.

BV


BV - 'Gleam' comes to mind. I believe she was the last of the traditional 12's built with a cruising interior. Sex on water.


webkit-fake-url://951184AC-4634-47EE-8B31-A38897246D84/cygleam.jpg

#73 Mung Breath

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

GLEAM: try this link: http://www.seascopen...pages/gleam.htm

As many here appreciate, it isn't how much you spend, how big it is, or how fast is....it's about the 'package'. At the upper end, I'd be hard pressed to think of a tighter package than GLEAM. There are of course, others slightly more offshore capable...Bolero, Dorade...! During my refit in Maine, I was sandwiched between two stellar examples of 'finesse': Nevin's personal boat, POLLY (55'), the first he built after WWII and in search of a new owner/refit and NELLIE, a 1903 Herreshoff that just completed one. Humbling. If I weren't already committed to CDE, I would have jumped on POLLY in a heartbeat.

#74 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

Mung,

Gleam is an amazing boat, one that anyone would love to do a cruise of Maine aboard. I bumped into Dame Patti in the PNW a few years ago and she now has a full off interior in her. Easterner, which was known as Newsboy when she was out west, had an interior including a piano. I don't know her history well enough to know if that was added sometime along the line. But all those boats are going to be loved and kept well into their dotage. Last weekend, I was clambering around in a full carbon 48' race boat that is now too old to be competitive, too painful to sail to be useful for much of anything else, and rapidly approaching being nearly given away. to put an interior into her, you'd spend as much as Kimb is probably spending to build the Sliver and have a fraction of the boat.

BV

#75 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:21 PM

Hi Mung,

I've got photos of your boat with red bottom paint but think you said she now has the blue topsides, white bottom, and grey boot tops. What will she be next season?

I'm looked closer at that rudder I modeled and decided to flare it out at the top to better fit behind the base of the skeg. What I think of as a 'golf tee' rudder. Hard to really see in these SS's, but I'll do some renders later and it should show better. I've got the major features on deck done and might add some winches and a pedestal in an effort to challenge Gates into doing full feature. I spoke with him at length yesterday and he will most likely do a simple half hull, but I think he might eventually go for a full model.

Rasp

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#76 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:41 PM

Mung,

Gleam is an amazing boat, one that anyone would love to do a cruise of Maine aboard. I bumped into Dame Patti in the PNW a few years ago and she now has a full off interior in her. Easterner, which was known as Newsboy when she was out west, had an interior including a piano. I don't know her history well enough to know if that was added sometime along the line. But all those boats are going to be loved and kept well into their dotage. Last weekend, I was clambering around in a full carbon 48' race boat that is now too old to be competitive, too painful to sail to be useful for much of anything else, and rapidly approaching being nearly given away. to put an interior into her, you'd spend as much as Kimb is probably spending to build the Sliver and have a fraction of the boat.

BV


I did a race season in the CORC (Caribbean Ocean Race Circuit) on the old Charley Morgan 12 Meter 'Heritage'. She was the last wooden 12 if I remember correctly and had a keel and rudder refit as well as a masthead rig and she was quite a threat as an ocean racer. Still pretty Spartan down below, and a handful to sail, but it was glorious sailing. A full time skipper and mate and a couple of deckhands had delivered her from Jamaica after the Pineapple Cup Miami-Montego Bay race. They took a beating as a crew of four was pretty shorthanded for the long slog to weather against the Trades and missed the St. Thomas Rolex. A bunch of us locals joined the crew for BVI Spring Regatta and we did surprisingly well. The owner invited the whole pickup crew to come to Antigua Race week and it was a blast. We were matched against the old UBS Switzerland (Marlboro-Whitbread Maxi) and 'Mistress Quickly' in the big boat class and it was close racing every day. We took second in Fleet and first in the Vintage class and the boat continued on to the Canal and eventually the West Coast. I'm not sure I'd really call her a cruiser though... I think she is back in Newport RI doing the daysail thing with gleam and the other 12 meters that have congregated there.

http://www.challengeandadventure.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/0015.jpg

Mung,

Gleam is an amazing boat, one that anyone would love to do a cruise of Maine aboard. I bumped into Dame Patti in the PNW a few years ago and she now has a full off interior in her. Easterner, which was known as Newsboy when she was out west, had an interior including a piano. I don't know her history well enough to know if that was added sometime along the line. But all those boats are going to be loved and kept well into their dotage. Last weekend, I was clambering around in a full carbon 48' race boat that is now too old to be competitive, too painful to sail to be useful for much of anything else, and rapidly approaching being nearly given away. to put an interior into her, you'd spend as much as Kimb is probably spending to build the Sliver and have a fraction of the boat.

BV


I did a race season in the CORC (Caribbean Ocean Race Circuit) on the old Charley Morgan 12 Meter 'Heritage'. She was the last wooden 12 if I remember correctly and had a keel and rudder refit as well as a masthead rig and she was quite a threat as an ocean racer. Still pretty Spartan down below, and a handful to sail, but it was glorious sailing. A full time skipper and mate and a couple of deckhands had delivered her from Jamaica after the Pineapple Cup Miami-Montego Bay race. They took a beating as a crew of four was pretty shorthanded for the long slog to weather against the Trades and missed the St. Thomas Rolex. A bunch of us locals joined the crew for BVI Spring Regatta and we did surprisingly well. The owner invited the whole pickup crew to come to Antigua Race week and it was a blast. We were matched against the old UBS Switzerland (Marlboro-Whitbread Maxi) and 'Mistress Quickly' in the big boat class and it was close racing every day. We took second in Fleet and first in the Vintage class and the boat continued on to the Canal and eventually the West Coast. I'm not sure I'd really call her a cruiser though... I think she is back in Newport RI doing the daysail thing with gleam and the other 12 meters that have congregated there.

http://www.challengeandadventure.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/0015.jpg

Sorry for the double post, something hiccupped on the upload.

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#77 Rasputin22

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:50 AM

Well, I guess it is up to me to get this thread back on topic after my rambling hijack about 'cruising 12 meters'. Sorry!

I spoke at length today with Frank Luke, the son of the builder of Coup D'Etat. He must have been a young man when she was originally built, but he knows the boat through her subsequent re-fits and rebuilds as well. My inquiries last week about the boat and her principal dimensions got him to looking through their sheds and found an original half model of the Sitzmark. That was her name when launched and the model got tacked to the wall in an unheated shed and I'm not sure they were even aware of it. An old New England boatyard must have so much rich heritage and artifacts like this that it would be easy for the model to sort of blend in with the woodwork. He had offered to ship the model to me to have further reference in my reconstruction of the 3d model, but Mung, Bob, and Gates seem to be confident in my work to date and I told Frank to hold off sending me their model for now.
I had thought that I could try some different methods for measuring the model and one was to mark the sections and use a camera to capture those shapes and then I could import that into my 3d program to check my surface contours. Frank told me that the model already had sections, buttocks and waterlines scribed into it and that would have worked very well. The family members must have had some doubts about sending a precious heirloom from their fathers legacy to some unknown CAD dude way down south and after giving them my credit card number and insuring the model for thousands of dollars they were ready to send it my way. I thought that perhaps it would be better going straight to Gates, but he was happy with working from my 'new fangled' CAD drawings and Mung expressed the same. So we are pressing onward right from the model you have seen here!

I had sent some renderings to Frank Luke of the model and he asked where I got such nice photos of the boat. I had a hard time convincing him that they were just CAD renders and promised to send him more. It is a real treat to me to get this sort of input and see a meeting of old school design and traditional modeling with my efforts with the software tools at my disposal in archiving such a venerable and respect design.

I've added some deck details and done a few more renders.

Attached Files



#78 Mung Breath

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:27 AM

Rasp - you're scary, spook-like. Poor Frank Luke must be face down in the palms of his hands, sitting at the end of his dock over east Boothbay, sensing the fading glow of mortality right now saying, "ohhh, they don't need me anymore". At the risk of igniting another 'why are these people so friggin complemetary to each other' flame, I do have to point out your obvious talent.

As one perfectionist to another, allow me to point out a couple nitpicks to drive you nuts:

1. The coach house appears flared. It is not. It is rectangular....although I really like this version!
2. You are still using the sailplan doc from Carina (i.e LWL 36')..I'll send you mine!
3. Missing the coach top 24"x24"Lewmar hatch and raised teak pad
4. Missing the thru-hulls ;)
5. Edson wheel is 44"
6. missing raised winch pad on deck, port and slightly aft of the mast for a Harken 46
7 missing the toe rail-mounted, custom aluminum double turning block mounts, p/s
8. missing the three 'xxx' at the end of the cover stripe
9. the MFD goes on the 'aft ' side of the Vision II pedestal
10. 2" exhaust exit is through port side of stern
11. Six custom aluminum dorade boxes and white cowls
12. My 9-year old fishing from the stern

You blow my mind....and a lot of others, I'm sure! Bravo.

I'll want a HD photo set of this when you're done....but you will need to replace it with the original rudder at that point!

#79 Mung Breath

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:40 AM

Hi Mung,

I've got photos of your boat with red bottom paint but think you said she now has the blue topsides, white bottom, and grey boot tops. What will she be next season?

I'm looked closer at that rudder I modeled and decided to flare it out at the top to better fit behind the base of the skeg. What I think of as a 'golf tee' rudder. Hard to really see in these SS's, but I'll do some renders later and it should show better. I've got the major features on deck done and might add some winches and a pedestal in an effort to challenge Gates into doing full feature. I spoke with him at length yesterday and he will most likely do a simple half hull, but I think he might eventually go for a full model.

Rasp


No, you had her right the first time. Pacifica Plus red bottom, white boots, Carinthia Blue topsides, Whisper Gray coach house, rails, deck and cockpit, gold cove.

#80 froggie

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:50 AM

Mung - You're just cruel. (But I laughed, too.) Does Coup D'etat really have an offset companionway? Isn't that, like, dangerous or something? ;)

Rasp - Beautious renderings. The reflections of the 'plans' off of the hull are cool. I can't figure out why you left the knitting needles on the deck, though. :P


#81 WHL

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:29 AM

Totally dangerous offset. Knee knocking frightening

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#82 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:20 AM

Mung - You're just cruel. (But I laughed, too.) Does Coup D'etat really have an offset companionway? Isn't that, like, dangerous or something? ;)/>

Rasp - Beautious renderings. The reflections of the 'plans' off of the hull are cool. I can't figure out why you left the knitting needles on the deck, though. :P/>


You haven't lived until you do now on a big CCA MH boat with wire guys and 20+ foot metal poles. You life passes before you eyes every gybe.

Great tenderings Rasp.

#83 Rasputin22

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

Rasp - you're scary, spook-like. Poor Frank Luke must be face down in the palms of his hands, sitting at the end of his dock over east Boothbay, sensing the fading glow of mortality right now saying, "ohhh, they don't need me anymore". At the risk of igniting another 'why are these people so friggin complemetary to each other' flame, I do have to point out your obvious talent.

As one perfectionist to another, allow me to point out a couple nitpicks to drive you nuts:

1. The coach house appears flared. It is not. It is rectangular....although I really like this version!
2. You are still using the sailplan doc from Carina (i.e LWL 36')..I'll send you mine!
3. Missing the coach top 24"x24"Lewmar hatch and raised teak pad
4. Missing the thru-hulls ;)
5. Edson wheel is 44"
6. missing raised winch pad on deck, port and slightly aft of the mast for a Harken 46
7 missing the toe rail-mounted, custom aluminum double turning block mounts, p/s
8. missing the three 'xxx' at the end of the cover stripe
9. the MFD goes on the 'aft ' side of the Vision II pedestal
10. 2" exhaust exit is through port side of stern
11. Six custom aluminum dorade boxes and white cowls
12. My 9-year old fishing from the stern

You blow my mind....and a lot of others, I'm sure! Bravo.

I'll want a HD photo set of this when you're done....but you will need to replace it with the original rudder at that point!


And I thought Bob was tough...

#84 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:00 AM

Rasp,

The sailor in my loves the new rudder, but on a boat of that vintage it looks so strange. I keep waning to keep the new rudder and go to work on the keel!

BV

#85 Mung Breath

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

Attached File  CDE Happy.jpg   60.85K   36 downloads

This is where she and I are both happiest

#86 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:44 PM


Mung - You're just cruel. (But I laughed, too.) Does Coup D'etat really have an offset companionway? Isn't that, like, dangerous or something? ;)/>

Rasp - Beautious renderings. The reflections of the 'plans' off of the hull are cool. I can't figure out why you left the knitting needles on the deck, though. :P/>


You haven't lived until you do now on a big CCA MH boat with wire guys and 20+ foot metal poles. You life passes before you eyes every gybe.

Great tenderings Rasp.


Damn. So much for an iPhone in a dim roomwith a bandaid on my finger. Do bow, your eyes and great renderings.

#87 Gatekeeper

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:51 PM

Attached File  CDE Happy.jpg   60.85K   36 downloads

This is where she and I are both happiest


In that photo I can't tell what rudder is in play...go with the rudder that improves her handling the most. Esthetics are important, but fast is REALLY important.

#88 Mung Breath

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:45 PM


Attached File  CDE Happy.jpg   60.85K   36 downloads

This is where she and I are both happiest


In that photo I can't tell what rudder is in play...go with the rudder that improves her handling the most. Esthetics are important, but fast is REALLY important.


The ONLY one. The ORIGINAL one. The one we'll stick on the model :)
But do note how she squats and waterlines....

#89 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:04 PM



Attached File  CDE Happy.jpg   60.85K   36 downloads

This is where she and I are both happiest


In that photo I can't tell what rudder is in play...go with the rudder that improves her handling the most. Esthetics are important, but fast is REALLY important.


The ONLY one. The ORIGINAL one. The one we'll stick on the model :)/>
But do note how she squats and waterlines....


She's beautiful - pretty much the definition of a displacement hull shape - really beautiful!!


#90 Tucky

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

I'm glad you are getting to know Frank Luke. I knew Paul slightly, from after the time I sailed just a bit on Alacrity (1981, 40'-http://mccurdyandrhodes.com/alacrity.php), and they deserve acknowledgement for their part in these boats.

#91 Gatekeeper

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

The ONLY one. The ORIGINAL one. The one we'll stick on the model :)
But do note how she squats and waterlines....



No doubt about that...on the model, esthetics do matter!!

#92 Mung Breath

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:29 PM

I'm glad you are getting to know Frank Luke. I knew Paul slightly, from after the time I sailed just a bit on Alacrity (1981, 40'-http://mccurdyandrhodes.com/alacrity.php), and they deserve acknowledgement for their part in these boats.


I heard a story, don't know if it's true but I wouldn't be surprised. Back in the 60's, as wooden boat construction began to fall from favor and aluminum became the 'speed material de jour', Paul walked into his shop and announced, "OK men, yesterday you were wooden boat experts, today you are aluminum boat experts!". And so it began.

I've talked with Frank and now Andy a few times over the years. There's no doubt they love their children.

#93 Bob Perry

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:06 PM

I was in Paul Luke's yard with Paul. He was getting on in age then. He was concentrating on my client's wife's ass most of the time. It was a nice ass.

I neard a Paul Luke story:
They had to move the lead ballast for a boat over into place in the shop. The workers struggled to move the ballast. Paul told them to step back and he took a running start at the ballast and launched himself into it shoulder first. He came away with a dislocated shoulder. Probably just a Luke Legend but I think it speaks to who the man was. I was very fortunate to have him build a 47'er I designed. The alu work was superb. The interior finish work not so superb.

#94 Rasputin22

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

I was in Paul Luke's yard with Paul. He was getting on in age then. He was concentrating on my client's wife's ass most of the time. It was a nice ass.

I neard a Paul Luke story:
They had to move the lead ballast for a boat over into place in the shop. The workers struggled to move the ballast. Paul told them to step back and he took a running start at the ballast and launched himself into it shoulder first. He came away with a dislocated shoulder. Probably just a Luke Legend but I think it speaks to who the man was. I was very fortunate to have him build a 47'er I designed. The alu work was superb. The interior finish work not so superb.


Was that where the expression, 'The irresistible force meets the immovable object' came from?

#95 Tucky

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:19 PM

I believe Paul was partial to a nip or two on occasion. Were you working nooners Bob?

#96 Rasputin22

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:35 AM

I've sent the lift cut files off to Gates so he can do his thing and I'm having some fun with a fresh release of Octane which has added some nice sun and sky effects. In addition the software can now do post processing for effects such as 'bloom' and 'glare' which mimic the results of the sun reflecting on the water surface and haze from the salt in the air. This sort of thing can be done in Photoshop with the proper skills, but I usually don't take the time and now it all get done in real time in the rendering program. A nice little Christmas gift from the developers. A couple of examples...

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#97 Tucky

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:58 AM

Rasp, hasn't any one ever taught you not to photograph with the sun behind the boat you are shooting- it makes it hard to see things with the glare and haze at all.

Try and shoot with the sun behind you. <_<

#98 Cruisin Loser

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:34 PM

Totally dangerous offset. Knee knocking frightening


But a confidence inspiring bridgedeck. Bridgedecks seem to have faded in favor of deeper companionways giving easier access, but they provide more seating and help prevent downflooding in case the cockpit gets filled.

#99 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

Loser:
Yes you are correct and they are especially helpful when combined with the death defying offset companionway we see here.

And for the record, no I'll never let some of you guys forget it.

#100 Rasputin22

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:49 PM

Thanks Tucky,

Right on shooting towards the sun. But these were to check out all the bad things that causes which the rendering software guys have worked so hard to emulate. Things like bloom, glare, and Bokeh flares. I'll get over the new buttons to push and get back to better composed shots.

Coup D'Etat is just about ready to take on a new mission, come back for some details here!

I've been looking for the perfect New England waterfront photo for a backdrop, once that fog clears. Hi res copyright free images can be posted here for inclusion in my dream scene. Thanks! I know Boomer probably has just the thing...

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