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First 34.7/10R - Just finding their groove?

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#1 Arced

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

Walter B's testimony from another thread brought a tear to me eye...

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:04 AM
You made the right choice.

We bought a 10R and every day I am happier & happier with it.

Farr designed Beneteau First 10R # 3 QuoteMy beloved & I are racing our second 34.7/10R - upgraded from the first one, and missed it so much we went back. A very capable deep-sea racing caravan. Prick of a rudder - too short - but it sure keeps you honest and demands the crew learn about balance. Maybe the IRC rating and "the knowledge" are starting to converge?

#2 bluelaser2

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

its nice when you find a design that finds YOUR groove...

#3 MSA

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

Not sure about the Rudder being too small... All Beneteau's suffer the same from the ugly ass shape they have which massively reduced their W/L length which helps their rating be sooo low.
The stern shape allows the rudder to ventilate. It's faster to sail it flatter/change down sails earlier than throw a whole bunch more wetted surface area at the the issue.

But yeah you guys practically live on that thing and have a lot of fun!. Is the wine rack full?

#4 Arced

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:24 AM

A young fellow once described the 34.7 as "a whale with a toothpick hanging out of its arse". Gotta keep that toothpick in the water if you want any grip- so flat and not over-powered are definitely the key. Pretty sure the 35 has a longer foil, though they still get messy DDW. 34.7 with assie doesn't do DDW, thankfully!
There is an aftermarket rudder for the 34.7 that makes it a different boat, apparently (thread here but no first hand reports).

#5 MSA

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:34 AM

Yeah heard the same for the 35, 40, 40.7 etc etc etc.. Everyone blames the rudder :P

Might work in 35 knots when all you want is grip because you ain't going to go any faster.. but the drag in "power on" mode would hurt..

The new 35 Keel will defiantly help the boat gain some traction in the water. Less overall surface area, More fin to grip, same RM and a 4 point credit.. B)

#6 Arced

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:06 AM

Geez, you don't need another 4 points off!
It would be painful to burn some of the light air performance, but I think a Bene optimized for 20ish knots would have a deeper rudder. Even when the trimmers & helm bring their A game, the odd bowl out (Beneteau dance) seems inevitable.

#7 MSA

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:50 AM

You are right.. If it doesn't sell soon the rating well probably drop 7 points with some mods and be faster... gotta love VPP studies.... The Dance you talk of... Know it well. Over 22... Pole the jib out.. boat still sits on 10+ and the legs here aren't long enough to warrant the risk of one major F-up because a trimmer loses concentration worrying about what girl he wants to pick up later in the evening.

#8 Icedtea

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

A young fellow once described the 34.7 as "a whale with a toothpick hanging out of its arse". Gotta keep that toothpick in the water if you want any grip- so flat and not over-powered are definitely the key. Pretty sure the 35 has a longer foil, though they still get messy DDW. 34.7 with assie doesn't do DDW, thankfully!
There is an aftermarket rudder for the 34.7 that makes it a different boat, apparently (thread here but no first hand reports).

I race on one that has the new rudder, and it turns it into an entirely different animal...makes sailing her off the breeze in 25knts a joy

#9 Arced

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

Interesting. Do you run A kites only and what was the impact (subjective or measured) on light air performance?

#10 Icedtea

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:45 AM

Interesting. Do you run A kites only and what was the impact (subjective or measured) on light air performance?


We have an A2 4 and 6, keeping a sails only..... Didnt slow her down a huge amount in the light and for offahores its a godsend.

We also did away with the #1 and have a #2 $3 and #4.....suits us far better with heavy airs and offshores!

#11 walterbshaffer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

Rudder story: I thought about putting on the new rudder and submitted the new rudder profile along with the old rudder profile to the local PHRF board so they could see the difference between the 2. I was told that since the new rudder would be lighter & smaller with less drag & less displacement I would take a -3 second hit to my rating. When I said "What? The new rudder is the larger of the two!" they said "Sorry we misunderstood; because the new rudder is larger & will give you better control you will take a -3 second hit to your rating"

I have no doubt (and I mean none) that the larger rudder is definitely better for off wind and allows carrying the 1 & 2 upwind into heavier ranges than the sails themselves were designed for but since I'm already at 63/69/75 and in a fairly light wind area I can't see the benefit in going to the expense of a larger rudder for a 60/66/72 rating. If I were anywhere else I would.

Also, I think there are several different versions of the larger rudder - some are professionally designed by a NA and some are done by very knowledgeable "boat guys". Both mods get outstanding reviews.

What a boat. Happier every day.

#12 jackdaw

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

Rudder story: I thought about putting on the new rudder and submitted the new rudder profile along with the old rudder profile to the local PHRF board so they could see the difference between the 2. I was told that since the new rudder would be lighter & smaller with less drag & less displacement I would take a -3 second hit to my rating. When I said "What? The new rudder is the larger of the two!" they said "Sorry we misunderstood; because the new rudder is larger & will give you better control you will take a -3 second hit to your rating"


WBS - You know the line... 'NO ONE ever modifies their boat to slow it down'! ;^)

The PHRF board will just pick a good story to ding you the 3.

#13 SailRacer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

Forget the 10R, it is the 10M that rates 96 at CRW that makes me take notice...

Sail safe

#14 Arced

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:40 PM

jackdaw, that's so true. But the aim of the 34.7 rudder mod is to trade off some light air performance for improved heavy air performance. For a light air venue, you wouldn't do it, as Walter didn't. For offshore Ireland, it is clearly worthwhile. For Fremantle? That's my conundrum. It's often blowing dogs off chains, but we have a fair bit of light air sailing too. Which is why I am interested in whether the extra drag is significant in light air, or will just get lost in our tactical errors!

BTW, I think IRC allows the bigger rudder for free - unless, of course, Hull Factor gets tweaked to penalise a departure from the standard design?

#15 jackdaw

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

Arced,

Got it. We have the same issue with masthead kites on the 367. Handy and worth in in light airs, but you carry the extra seconds all the time.

#16 Icedtea

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:30 AM

AFAIK Farr themselves designed the boat with two rudders, one smaller which Beneteau ran with in the end and the larger which we switched to.

Benny seemed to envisige the boat as a one design med racer, hence the smaller rudder that seems to be optimised for 10knts or so

#17 Arced

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:47 AM

That makes perfect sense. Seems that the larger rudder makes for a more versatile, user-friendly boat. Wouldn't have made much difference in this case...


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#18 Wuffie

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:55 AM

Sailmaker suggested that I look at swapping the stock rudder out for a Bene 36.7 rudder. Looks wider and deeper. No idea whether the rudder stock would fit. Thoughts?

#19 Arced

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

Don't know, but someone will. One would think that a key principle of production boat building is standardization of components, so it's possible. Not sure if the carbon stock on the 34.7/10R rudder complicates things?

BTW, what is a 10M?

#20 nuttin honey

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

Rudder with carbon does fit. PM me I have more info and planning to put same on my boat shortly

#21 Arced

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:08 PM

Rudder with carbon does fit. PM me I have more info and planning to put same on my boat shortly


36.7 rudder into 34.7/10R?

#22 familysailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:37 PM

I've had my 36.7 rudder out for a little rehab along with bearing and bearing housing replacement. Did not see any carbon material... rudder stock was all fiberglass.
What's this rudder with carbon you speak of?

#23 nuttin honey

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.

#24 familysailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:10 PM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.


Okay then.

That makes sense...
I can't imagine that retrofitting a 36.7 rudder would be any less expensive than using a larger rudder expressly designed for the boat.

#25 Arced

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:05 PM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.


The STOCK on the std 34.7/10R rudder is carbon- a strength-to-weight, fatigue resistance thing, I suppose. Bene put a bit of competitive IP into the 34.7 - the GFC and the limits of the Bene faithful shagged that.

Love the boat. More each day.


#26 AzimuthIrl

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

Arced

I am about to do things wrong way around - closing in on 50 yrs - and just sold my big heavy 58' seaworthy cruiser set up for heavy weather Ireland / Scotland sailing and decided to get into Dublin Bay club racing (60-70 cruiser/racers). Looking at a 34.7/10R - did a fair bit of racing in my 20's and have good understanding of sail control and tune - two of crew will be my 10 and 8 yr old kids but have to start from scratch for reaming crew - am I off my head thinking 34.7 ?

#27 walterbshaffer

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

No.

Great all around boat.

I found that kids love dangling thier feet off the stern while we sail.

#28 Icedtea

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:13 PM

Arced

I am about to do things wrong way around - closing in on 50 yrs - and just sold my big heavy 58' seaworthy cruiser set up for heavy weather Ireland / Scotland sailing and decided to get into Dublin Bay club racing (60-70 cruiser/racers). Looking at a 34.7/10R - did a fair bit of racing in my 20's and have good understanding of sail control and tune - two of crew will be my 10 and 8 yr old kids but have to start from scratch for reaming crew - am I off my head thinking 34.7 ?


No not at all, Which one in Dublin are you looking at?

#29 Haguesail

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:37 AM

Arced

I am about to do things wrong way around - closing in on 50 yrs - and just sold my big heavy 58' seaworthy cruiser set up for heavy weather Ireland / Scotland sailing and decided to get into Dublin Bay club racing (60-70 cruiser/racers). Looking at a 34.7/10R - did a fair bit of racing in my 20's and have good understanding of sail control and tune - two of crew will be my 10 and 8 yr old kids but have to start from scratch for reaming crew - am I off my head thinking 34.7 ?


Hi Azimuth - Given your sailing venue you might also consider the X-332 -- sturdy, very high quality build, good cockpit for kids and heavier conditions, holding its value, easy to shorthand, and very competitive under IRC.

#30 Foilman

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:03 AM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.

The STOCK on the std 34.7/10R rudder is carbon- a strength-to-weight, fatigue resistance thing, I suppose. Bene put a bit of competitive IP into the 34.7 - the GFC and the limits of the Bene faithful shagged that. Love the boat. More each day.


We built the first few of the larger design (royalites to Farr) with fiberglass posts as per the design at the time.
Then a couple of customers were interested in investigating a carbon post instead - it totally makes sense - and
we shared the Farr engineering fee with them. Since then we've been building the large rudder exclusively with the
carbon post.

http://www.fastcompo...s-a-z/beneteau/

A similar deal is brewing with the Farr 395 (standard aluminum post to be replaced with carbon).

Cheers
Phil

#31 By the lee

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:59 AM

Why do they have such a stubby sailplan? Were ever offered with tall rig?

And what about a clew(strap)? See below @ 3:44..... :huh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUkif9beRsk

Better..........



#32 AzimuthIrl

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:35 AM

There are 2 in Dublin (mgmboats.com) and a few in UK that I am looking at at the moment - no big rush as season starts late April

Have thought about white sails for a season to get a crew together and to know the boat ?

#33 Arced

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:52 AM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.

The STOCK on the std 34.7/10R rudder is carbon- a strength-to-weight, fatigue resistance thing, I suppose. Bene put a bit of competitive IP into the 34.7 - the GFC and the limits of the Bene faithful shagged that. Love the boat. More each day.


We built the first few of the larger design (royalites to Farr) with fiberglass posts as per the design at the time.
Then a couple of customers were interested in investigating a carbon post instead - it totally makes sense - and
we shared the Farr engineering fee with them. Since then we've been building the large rudder exclusively with the
carbon post.

http://www.fastcompo...s-a-z/beneteau/

A similar deal is brewing with the Farr 395 (standard aluminum post to be replaced with carbon).

Cheers
Phil


Thanks Phil. Nice to get your input. I notice your customer testimonial says no noticeable decrease in light air performance, which addresses one of my concerns.

I will put up some thoughts on the other posters' comments below.

#34 Arced

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:41 AM

Azimuth

I think 50-ish is the perfect age to own a 34.7! We have just returned from a local regatta (Cockburn Sound Regatta), where we sailed with six crew (inc three women), slept five on board and finished third in IRC1. That gives an idea of the versatility of the boat. They are fairly simply rigged (with the A-sail only config), but technically interesting enough to provide a challenge - for example, learning to sail deep and fast with the A-sail, and keeping the boat in a straight line in breeze.

The rig is not stubby - quite high aspect in fact. With a 135% overlapper, they are fully powered in 10 knots. Most were delivered with Hall Spars carbon mast and rod rigging - that is definitely the way to go (as is a clew strap!).

A season racing "white sails" (jib & main) would be a great idea to get a feel for the boat, with some low-key kite practice on good days. You will need more grunt and weight than just a spouse and the young kids to race hard, but there will be real jobs for the little fellas (sewer rat, jib release, bow, vang trimmer (the latter being rather important when reaching on a 34.7)).

Happy New Year and good luck with the search. Icedtea will be a good contact for you in Dublin Fair City.

#35 AzimuthIrl

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:52 PM

Thanks to all for the advice and support.

Just to let you know I now am the proud owner of a 34.7/10R (2008 build launched in 2009 and dry sailed since launch - so in great shape) - She is being prepared for launch and should be good to go in the next two weeks.

Now the small problem of getting her home and getting a team together - a nice problem to have though ! http://dublinbayraceteam.blogspot.ie/

#36 Wuffie

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:10 PM

Congrats. You made a great choice. Have a great season and keep us posted on your progress.

I just wish I was as close to launch as you are. Eight more weeks to go here...

#37 walterbshaffer

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:39 PM

You absolutely luck bastard! Congratulations.

Was out yesterday, total fun, I remember saying that if I ever won millions in the lottery I would not buy a different boat.

#38 MSA

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:31 AM

http://sportspage.co...hampionship.htm

The last 3 IRC Regattas in this state the First 35 has won its division against well sailed 34.7's. One of them being "Arced" :P

Farr obviously did something right in the last 5 years..

Said First 35 is FOR SALE as well.. (No I won't buy an ad!!! As if someone in the US will buy a boat in AUD!!!)

#39 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:23 PM

Hello Guy's & Girls,

 

Got myself a Ben First 10R / 34.7 this summer.

Just in the process of learning it, and have tried it now in both low winds and high winds (30+ knots).

 

Can handle the boat well enough, however, does not quite seem to reach the full potential i belive it has. Still staying 1-2 knots below Farr's Polar prediction.

As such I'm interrested to come into contact with skippers that have racing experience with this boat.

 

Thanks in advance  :-)

 

Paul

 



#40 JBSF

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:37 PM


There is an aftermarket rudder for the 34.7 that makes it a different boat, 

 

Is that the same company that makes aftermarket carbon J/70 rudders?



#41 Joakim

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 03:45 PM

Can handle the boat well enough, however, does not quite seem to reach the full potential i belive it has. Still staying 1-2 knots below Farr's Polar prediction.

As such I'm interrested to come into contact with skippers that have racing experience with this boat.

 

1-2 knots below VPP? Do you mean these: http://www.blur.se/p..._prediction.pdf ? At what point of sail? These predictions are conservative and you shouldn't have trouble reaching them.

 

Do you have a symmetric or an asymmetric spinnaker? I have only sailed against ones with symmetric spinnakers. There is a very good fleet in Estonia. Maybe you should contact them: http://kjk.ee/



#42 Foilman

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 03:50 PM


There is an aftermarket rudder for the 34.7 that makes it a different boat, 

 

Is that the same company that makes aftermarket carbon J/70 rudders?

 

We make the updated 34.7 / 10 rudder, under license to Farr.


Had nothing to do with the carbon J/70 rudder.

 

Phil



#43 Arced

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 10:50 PM

Agree that the Farr rough water VPPs are quite conservative. Our targets are a few percent higher and we sail a bit deeper downwind (with a fat A-sail). The pole boats go deeper still, of course.

Upwind, the boat will happily sit in an under-speed groove all day if you don't build speed before going fully close hauled. Assuming you've got the basics covered (clean bottom, reasonable sails & rig tune, sufficient rail weight, calibrated instruments), try sheeting the sails to 90% and putting the nose down a few degrees to build speed until you hit target. Then smoothly squeeze the sails on to 100%. The boat is quite heavy, so it is a case of speed first, height second!

In breezier conditions, the non-overlapping jibs need to be in-hauled to achieve a finer entry angle, or it all gets a bit over-powered (34.7s don't like over-powered - rudder's too small!)

Congratulations on buying a good boat that will test and reward you.

#44 By the lee

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:03 AM



The new 35 Keel will defiantly help the boat gain some traction in the water. Less overall surface area, More fin to grip, same RM and a 4 point credit.. B)

 

How can a boat be "defiant"?  :huh:



#45 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:01 PM

Can handle the boat well enough, however, does not quite seem to reach the full potential i belive it has. Still staying 1-2 knots below Farr's Polar prediction.
As such I'm interrested to come into contact with skippers that have racing experience with this boat.

 
1-2 knots below VPP? Do you mean these: http://www.blur.se/p..._prediction.pdf ? At what point of sail? These predictions are conservative and you shouldn't have trouble reaching them.
 
Do you have a symmetric or an asymmetric spinnaker? I have only sailed against ones with symmetric spinnakers. There is a very good fleet in Estonia. Maybe you should contact them: http://kjk.ee/

Hi Joakim,
First, yes, thats the Polar's i am comparing to, as i belive these numbers can be indicative of my performance, and sure enough, it shows me that I'm slow, and does also not get the height.
Second, I use A sail, however, my A sail is quite large, 110 sqm.

#46 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:24 PM

Agree that the Farr rough water VPPs are quite conservative. Our targets are a few percent higher and we sail a bit deeper downwind (with a fat A-sail). The pole boats go deeper still, of course.
Upwind, the boat will happily sit in an under-speed groove all day if you don't build speed before going fully close hauled. Assuming you've got the basics covered (clean bottom, reasonable sails & rig tune, sufficient rail weight, calibrated instruments), try sheeting the sails to 90% and putting the nose down a few degrees to build speed until you hit target. Then smoothly squeeze the sails on to 100%. The boat is quite heavy, so it is a case of speed first, height second!
In breezier conditions, the non-overlapping jibs need to be in-hauled to achieve a finer entry angle, or it all gets a bit over-powered (34.7s don't like over-powered - rudder's too small!)
Congratulations on buying a good boat that will test and reward you.


Hi, and thanks for replying..
Scarry to hear that the VPP's should even be beaten with some %.
Have checked the bottom with a Go Pro Hero camera on a pole, some growth is seen on the keel, however I don't see that it should amount to that much reduction in height& speed?
As for the rest, I am aware of this.

The rig came pre set/tensioned and I have not touched this. Find the V1 to be tight, however the D1 and the D2 to be quite slack, (loose when using the hand to wiggle the rod). I have checked in heavier weather and can not see any sagging in the mast, and the wind-ward side gets tight under sail. How much would reduction in speed/height would you expect from an improper set rig?

Paul

#47 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:34 PM

Hi again,
On thing that have puzzled me is how the boat wants to go to leeward. This requires allot of helm, which again slows the boat down. Now, I have experimented with this a little and it seems to me that the main has its center of effort to far aft to get a proper balance in the boat. My mast but is presently set at the middle position, however, I am contemplating moving the mast but to the aft position to get better balance. Would really appreciate any comments or experience to this..
Regards
Paul

#48 95Terp

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:44 PM

The tuning information available for the boat is somewhat sparse, but with some searching you can piece together some good tips.  The boat that won Key West in '07 talked about making that specific change to better balance the helm and improve upwind speed.  In addition, changing headstay tension agressively according to conditions is the biggest rig adjustment that you should be making.  We never change the sidestay tension more than a turn or two, but you can go up to several inches on the headstay to pull the rig forward when it's blowing.  It can take some time to get sorted, but once you get dialed in, the boat really goes well. 

 

Also, it definitely pays to depower early and to be quick on dumping the traveller.  I have the main trimmer keep an eye on the helm and if I have more than a few inches of weather helm on the wheel, he's putting on backstay and easing the traveller.  Dragging the rudder sideways is slow...



#49 Joakim

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 03:18 PM

Hi again,
On thing that have puzzled me is how the boat wants to go to leeward. This requires allot of helm, which again slows the boat down.

 

That is very bad for speed. You should increase tension in backstay. How much purchase do you have in the backstay? You should have at least 32:1, preferably 48:1, and pull it very hard above medium wind. And then play with mainsheet and traveller until you have almost neutral balance. It may be necessary to take the jib car backwards and/or change to smaller jib, if you can't loosen the main enough to gain good balance and speed. It shouldn't be hard at all to get 6+ knots on a beat, if wind speed is 10 knots or more. If you can't reach that, first step is usually to draw in backstay and then loosen mainsheet, if necessary.

 

Also it is important to have the mast trim correct so you get the main sail flat enough when there is excess weather helm. You need to have both diagonals loose enough, if your mainsail is cut deep. If that is not enough, you may need to icrease prebend by moving the mast foot backwards.



#50 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:23 PM

The tuning information available for the boat is somewhat sparse, but with some searching you can piece together some good tips.  The boat that won Key West in '07 talked about making that specific change to better balance the helm and improve upwind speed.  In addition, changing headstay tension agressively according to conditions is the biggest rig adjustment that you should be making.  We never change the sidestay tension more than a turn or two, but you can go up to several inches on the headstay to pull the rig forward when it's blowing.  It can take some time to get sorted, but once you get dialed in, the boat really goes well. 
 
Also, it definitely pays to depower early and to be quick on dumping the traveller.  I have the main trimmer keep an eye on the helm and if I have more than a few inches of weather helm on the wheel, he's putting on backstay and easing the traveller.  Dragging the rudder sideways is slow...


Thanks for the reply, have tried flattened out the main and taking force out of it, but find that have to take all force out til the point where wind is blowing into the back side of the main. That, in my mind gives for a poorly balanced boat, hence why I think of moving the mast butt aft ie moving the centre of effort for the main fwd.

Have the, (I believe original), Harken roller headstay arrangement that can not be tuned, as far as I can find out, unfortunately. It sounds like sense to tighten the headstay in more wind to keep center of effort fwd.

#51 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:45 PM

That is very bad for speed. You should increase tension in backstay......

......It shouldn't be hard at all to get 6+ knots on a beat, if wind speed is 10 knots or more.....
 


Have the standard back-stay set-up, and have increased the tension. Still, experience that I'm stalling at approx 4.5- 5 knots whatever the wind.

Are U guys having the mast butt in the middle position?

#52 Arced

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 11:33 PM

Hi again,
On thing that have puzzled me is how the boat wants to go to leeward. This requires allot of helm, which again slows the boat down. Now, I have experimented with this a little and it seems to me that the main has its center of effort to far aft to get a proper balance in the boat. My mast but is presently set at the middle position, however, I am contemplating moving the mast but to the aft position to get better balance. Would really appreciate any comments or experience to this..
Regards
Paul



Lee helm on a 34.7? Unusual! Moving the centre of effort forward would only make it worse, no?

Agree with Terp & Joakim's comments re rig tune. We have always kept the butt in the middle position, so might be time to try the aft. Not sure how Paul will work around the lack of forestay adjustment. It's pretty important.

The boat should be capable of low-mid 6s in 10 knots. Even with sub-optimal rig tune & sails, mid-high 5s should be easy enough. Maybe send a diver down to get the hull really clean (and check for buckets!) and see if that makes a difference?

#53 Joakim

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:30 AM

Have the standard back-stay set-up, and have increased the tension. Still, experience that I'm stalling at approx 4.5- 5 knots whatever the wind.

Are U guys having the mast butt in the middle position?


Forget the mast butt and mast trim. You can't get 1.5 knots from that. You have a more basic problem. Get someone who knows how to sail a similar boat (any C/R boat during the last 10-20 years) to give it a try.



#54 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 05:40 PM

On thing that have puzzled me is how the boat wants to go to leeward......


Sorry, that should be wind-ward... not lee-ward,,(where did that come from, blush, :-P )
Are taking the rig down for the winter, hence the question if it would be beneficial to put the mast butt more aft...

#55 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 06:03 PM


Forget the mast butt and mast trim. You can't get 1.5 knots from that. You have a more basic problem. Get someone who knows how to sail a similar boat (any C/R boat during the last 10-20 years) to give it a try.


Appreciate your honest reply, indicating that there is something major wrong with our sail-trim. I have certainly wondered about this myself. But as mentioned above, even with a half decent sail trim we should get better performance. And looking at the sail shapes and tell tales, I can't get myself to believe the trim is THAT poor... :-)

The only ting I'm noticing that is way off is the balance, can't get into the groove which I know the boat is capable of. Please don't take my comments the wrong way, I believe in the boat and I'm looking forward to learning her. My goal is solely to discuss and learn how to make the boat go faster and higher.

Paul

#56 95Terp

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 12:00 PM



[Have the, (I believe original), Harken roller headstay arrangement that can not be tuned, as far as I can find out, unfortunately. It sounds like sense to tighten the headstay in more wind to keep center of effort fwd.]

 

 

 

Actually you can still access the turnbuckle to tighten the headstay, though it's a bit of a pain.  There's a large pin at the base of the furling unit that holds it down, and some set screws that hold the foil in place at the top of the unit.  If you loosen these and let the foil drop down, and pull that pin, you can lift the whole mess up enough to adjust the tension.  It takes a few minutes, but it can be done...



#57 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 03:20 PM

95terp, you are absolutely correct, I just discovered today (as a matter of fact), a youtube video by Harken about how to adjust head stay on a roller forestay.
Thanks for picking up on that..

On another note, when out comes to main sail reefing, what wind speed and how much do you reef?

#58 gone

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 04:10 AM

I would work on the headstay length before I got all crazed about the mast step. I suspect your main might be showing over bend wrinkles before you have the headstay tight enough.

While sailing you and the your trimmers need to march up to the bow and look at your headstay sag. It should never be more than 6 inches and probably not more than four. Then reference that sag to marks on your spreaders (electrical tape of different colors works well here. You need to relate the inches of headstay sag to the marks on the spreaders.

Most modern sail designs run very little headstay sag.

As for telltales, they only tell you that air is flowing by not if the sail is presenting an optimal shape for air to flow by.

Shortening the headstay will reduce the weather helm. You should have more than 3 to 5 degrees of helm. The folks that race these all the time are your best guide there.

Once the balance of the boat is right then your can fine tune the main shape.

#59 95Terp

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 12:20 PM

Are you sure your instruments are reading correctly?  Our's sometimes read a knot or so low when the paddle wheel is fouled even the slightest bit...



#60 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 11:40 AM

Gone;

Have been looking at my headstay sag during sailing. Cant say it has shown much noticable bend.

Didnt quite understand how you ralate headstay sag with spreader marks?

 

Adjusting the mast butt aft will lead to a shorter headstay, and also the point of effect of the main will be moved approx 10cm fwd, (with some pretty basic un-accurate mathematics  :-)  ).

 

95Terp;

When it comes to my paddle wheel, its definetly showing low. However, I use GPS for reference, and yes I know the current effect is then not considered.

The wind sensor seems reasonable correct, although not calibrated.



#61 Joakim

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 05:59 PM

Adjusting the mast butt aft will lead to a shorter headstay, and also the point of effect of the main will be moved approx 10cm fwd, (with some pretty basic un-accurate mathematics  :-)  ).

 

You prbably don't want to shorten the headstay. Just move the mast butt and you will have more prebend and thus a flatter mainsail. But as I said earlier, this will not give you the huge speed increase you are looking for.



#62 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 09:14 PM

Joakim;

I agree that my butt position is not the full reason for my under-performance :rolleyes: , however, I belive that it may help balancing the boat better which I feel is important.

Also, I belive that I need to shorten the headstay somewhat, or else the point of effect wont be moved. A prebend can be achieved also with the butt in the center position so dont see that as a vial option.



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Posted 19 October 2014 - 11:23 PM

How calibrating headstay sag works:
1. Go to bow and observe sag.
2. Return to helm and observe location of headstay on upper spreader. A reference point on the spreader becomes your sag gauge.
3. I believe you have a black mast and spreaders so the tape can provide a clearer reference. Just place the tape at even increments on your spreaders. Eventually you can color code the reference marks for crew training purposes.

My gut tells me that you are sagging the headstay too far to leeward thereby creating more healing force and less forward drive.

#64 ThomasShepherd

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:59 PM

As well as headstay sag check mast side to side sag. If you're sailing in strong breezes and your inner shrouds are loose it could effect things.

 

We just started playing with rig tune on my 367, sailing in a light air area we added a load of power re-tuning for the conditions but the boat is now overpowered at several knots lower TWS. On a reach in general it get's very powered up - I've heard that switching to a smaller sail than you might expect (drop from #3 to #1) can really help but generally find our reaches with the #1 short enough to just suck it up.

 

And backstay. I'm still aching from hitting the backstay at the weekend, tack, power up, backstay on and come high as you trim on.

 

And twist. If it's wavey add twist.

 

On the 367 bearing away at the windward mark requires dumping the main...... fast! If you don't you'll either round up or lose half your speed depending on the wind conditions.

 

I'm two years in on the 36.7 and have learnt a huge amount from her. Small changes bring big rewards, or punishments.



#65 ThomasShepherd

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 04:12 PM

Drop from a #1 to #3.... apparently I can't edit my posts here.... only I can edit this one... time limit?



#66 95Terp

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 02:14 PM

Anyone have any secrets for white-sail reaching?  We consistently find that we do well in windward/leeward work, but then hemorrhage time quickly if the course has any extended close to beam reaching if it's too breezy to carry a kite.  I have been wondering if the larger rudder would help with this issue as it would allow us to carry more power with better control.  I have noticed that I have trouble holding a consistent course and probably carry too much weather helm.  We have learned to depower quickly going upwind to balance the helm, but maybe are just not doing it as well reaching. 



#67 Icedtea

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 04:56 PM

Here's a very raw Gopro cut I made of racing one- ignore the shite timelapse at the start!

 

 



#68 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 07:08 AM

Nice to see your video.
Have made one of our first training with spinnaker. This is a really huge one, 110 m2.


Note @ 01.30, where I am testing how high the boat can be pushed to windward, (stbd).
The boat comes to a point where the rudder losses grip, note the rudder midship marking is coming into view. Now, intuitively I would guess that such a big genaker would push the bow down wind, but that it's not the case.

Love to see more videos of our favorite boat :-)

#69 By the lee

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 07:32 AM

These boats got a tight groove, no?



#70 95Terp

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 08:06 PM

Nice video NOR.  Two observations - you should have your trimmer get where he can see the luff of the sail by cross-sheeting to the windward secondary winch.  Second - maybe it's the angle, but I don't think there's any way that sail is 110 m2.  It looks like a little A3 reacher to me...? 



#71 Arced

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 01:08 PM

This one is 100m2

Attached File  image.jpg   109.07KB   31 downloads

#72 95Terp

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 01:57 PM

That I believe...



#73 Joakim

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 08:33 PM

If it still is the same sail as in 2011, it is 89 m2, which would be the normal size for 34.7.

http://www.norlys.or....do?baatId=9836



#74 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 08:49 PM

I really hope the sail is 110m2, or my rating is fucking me up. :-P
See.. picture of sail measurements... and yeah it's big, but I have a feeling that size does not matter because I'm not seeing the extra gain I was hoping for with the excess size. Anyone with similar experience...
And yes, while on the topic, @ what wind speeds do you guys, (and possibly girls), experience planing with the 347/Ben10...
Regards
PaulAttached File  2014-11-20-21-44-50.png   379.32KB   23 downloads

#75 EWS

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 09:04 PM

planing......that's funny



#76 Icedtea

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 10:40 PM

You won't plane....but you might go pretty fast.
Best we got is 16.7 with pics.

#77 Joakim

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 08:17 AM

Here you can see quite good speeds for 34.7. Elisa, Jazz, Adele, Evelin and Low are 34.7's. There are no currents so GPS is real speed. The eastward leg on the most northern part of the course was the fastest. Run/reach with 30 knots of wind. Only some of the 34.7's used a (symmetric) spinnaker. LOW reached 16.3 knots without a spinnaker. Two carbon masts were broken (not from 34.7). But even in those conditions the average speeds were not that high. Only some planing while surfing on a wave.

 

http://sportrec.navi...com/ui/#19v3mgj

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#78 95Terp

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 01:44 PM

Must be the angle - it looks much smaller than I'm used to.  The Farr office recommends a max size of 102 m2.  Anything over that probably isn't helping much, but shouldn't be hurting you either until the wind gets up and you start spinning out. 

 

Yeah - planing isn't gonna happen.  It will move pretty good under the right conditions, but a sportboat it is not.  We spent a whole day doing between 10 and 14, but it was blowing 25ish and there were decent swells to surf.  The wheel gives a good shoulder workout under those conditions, and we averaged about one wipeout per hour...



#79 95Terp

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 01:54 PM

Those B.O.W. pictures are interesting - I noticed the multiple sets of jib tracks on the side of the coachroof most of the 34.7's have added.  I presume these are in place of the standard inhaulers?  Also looked like additional outboard tracks for reaching? 



#80 lostonsat

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 08:06 PM

Nice thread.

I purchased a 10R this summer and am having a lot of fun with it.

The sails are done so I am looking for recommendations on  what you have found worked the best.

Found some rust bubbles on the keel (small) and I am wondering what the best practice is to prevent them.



#81 walterbshaffer

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 09:11 PM

Those B.O.W. pictures are interesting - I noticed the multiple sets of jib tracks on the side of the coachroof most of the 34.7's have added.  I presume these are in place of the standard inhaulers?  Also looked like additional outboard tracks for reaching?

The tracks on the side of the coach roof are really interesting; assuming those are ORC sails not sure if it would work for me because we use a different rule. Even my smallest jib sheets aft of that position but then it is a 105% and those might be flat 100%s. No genny tracks on those boats either which is our primary sheeting area. Lots to think about there.

#82 95Terp

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 01:56 PM

No takers on my jib-reaching question?  Are we alone in our plight? 



#83 NOR_Sailor

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 04:22 PM

95terp; didnt quite understand what u meant by B.O.W pictures? i belived the jib tracks, both off them, to be original.. depending on whether u are using genua 1, 2 or 3... only no 3 fits for the fore most tracks..

#84 95Terp

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 08:12 PM

The jib track in this picture is non-standard for example:

 

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#85 Kmag

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 06:15 PM

Anyone have any secrets for white-sail reaching?  We consistently find that we do well in windward/leeward work, but then hemorrhage time quickly if the course has any extended close to beam reaching if it's too breezy to carry a kite.  I have been wondering if the larger rudder would help with this issue as it would allow us to carry more power with better control.  I have noticed that I have trouble holding a consistent course and probably carry too much weather helm.  We have learned to depower quickly going upwind to balance the helm, but maybe are just not doing it as well reaching. 

 

 

The stock rudder loads up VERY quickly and getting the correct balance on a reach or powered up in breeze is difficult.  An outboard lead for jib reaching is a MUST (If you can not fly a code 0 or blast reacher/jib top).  

 

The modified larger rudder is a huge improvement.  I have a customer in Dana Point that I have been racing with for 5 years on his.  We have a code 0 and 3A for reaching.  The code 0 is great in light air but quickly over powers the boat in any sort of breeze (stock rudder).  The angle gets deep in breeze quickly and the 3A takes over.  We also carry a 1.5A that is great in light air W/L but can reach in the random leg courses when it is a bit too deep for the 0 to really be effective.  

 

If you want to chat in detail shoot me an email kmagnussen@ullmansails.com



#86 Arced

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 10:08 AM

Reaching - the little stock rudder certainly demands that the boat is kept balanced and on its feet, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Weight back, hike hard, work the main, traveller and vang to keep the boat flat and the rudder in the water. And not too much rag. I expect that the bigger rudder pays its way on this the point of sail (but not if it is being dragged sideways through the water).

Headsails - plenty of 34.7s have been optimised for IRC with non-overlappers, but personally, I would miss the boat's sub-10 sweet spot with the 140% genoas (which probably proves that we are optimised for light air!). Depends where you sail, of course. Off Fremantle, we tend to have either sub-10 or 20+. We do better in the former. In the bigger breezes, we carry our rating in the cabin, but it's a fun ride.

It's great to see the Baltic 34.7s getting a class thing going. The non-overlapping, coach roof sheeted jibs are interesting, indeed. In 18+ on a J3, we in-haul to the V of the shrouds, but that is nowhere near the coach roof! Our upwind angles are 39-42 deg. I wonder what the Baltic guys get?

Nice to have Kmag's input. Where do you tack the Code 0? On the prod? All the way out? Presumably not looking for a tight luff, upwind thing without a fixed prod & bob stay? We find that outboard sheeting positions (snatch block on a pad eye) are essential for reaching. A JT could be a weapon on a 34.7, but with limited funds, we always rate new jibs, kites & mains as a higher priority. Our kites are something like A1 (90 m2), A2 (100 m2), A3 (90 m2) & A5 (MH 78m2). Even the little one needs 120+ TWA at 10 TWS.

I have found my UK Sails Tuning Guide from a few years ago. If you would like a copy, PM me your email address.

Merry Christmas! (We are not PC in AUS!)

#87 Kmag

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:29 PM


Nice to have Kmag's input. Where do you tack the Code 0? On the prod? All the way out? Presumably not looking for a tight luff, upwind thing without a fixed prod & bob stay? We find that outboard sheeting positions (snatch block on a pad eye) are essential for reaching. A JT could be a weapon on a 34.7, but with limited funds, we always rate new jibs, kites & mains as a higher priority. Our kites are something like A1 (90 m2), A2 (100 m2), A3 (90 m2) & A5 (MH 78m2). Even the little one needs 120+ TWA at 10 TWS.



Merry Christmas! (We are not PC in AUS!)

 

 

Fully extended "prod" for the Code 0 and as tight of a luff as you can get.  Light air reaching code 0.  



#88 nuttin honey

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 03:41 AM

We use the code on ours in Detroit, with a bobstay on the end of the pole and an aramid line secured through the hull to the inside of the anchor locker to avoid overloading the sprit pole.  Side note: have gathered the names, boats and contact information on 25 or 26 10R's in the US and Canada.  If you own either the 10r or 34.7 and would like to be added to the list, PM me.  We will share the list if you provide your information on your email, phone,  port city, hull number and boat name. You can then be added to the email discussions we have three or four times a year.  Also, we now have about nine boats which have changed to the larger rudders and never looked back.



#89 95Terp

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 02:24 PM

A couple more questions while we have some dialogue going:

 

-  Has anyone replaced their saildrive membrane?  How hard was it?  I assume the fairing plate on the outside of the hull needs to come off - is that possible without destroying it?  Any tips?

 

-  How about removing the pole for recoating?  How do you access the purchase inside the tube to replace the line and/or shockcord? 



#90 Jacques Armand

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:13 AM

Hi. I am looking for information regarding Rudder options for my First 34.7.

#91 Parma

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 03:41 PM

Hi. I am looking for information regarding Rudder options for my First 34.7.

I just had a new rudder delivered to me but it is not yet installed. The boat is out of the water and should be back in within the week. Once I have tested it out all let you know if it's worth the money! All of the other 10 R owners save the new rudder from CCI is the best money they spent on the boat.

 

CCI used to be Phils Foils located in Canada. Google them and Mona will send you all the data you need.

 

After I've been out with the new rudder all post back here to let you know what I think about it. It better work because it wasn't cheap!



#92 Jacques Armand

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 10:42 AM

Interesting. Do you run A kites only and what was the impact (subjective or measured) on light air performance?

We have an A2 4 and 6, keeping a sails only..... Didnt slow her down a huge amount in the light and for offahores its a godsend. We also did away with the #1 and have a #2 $3 and #4.....suits us far better with heavy airs and offshores!


Any impact on the IRC rating?

#93 Jacques Armand

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 10:47 AM

Hi. I am looking for information regarding Rudder options for my First 34.7.

I just had a new rudder delivered to me but it is not yet installed. The boat is out of the water and should be back in within the week. Once I have tested it out all let you know if it's worth the money! All of the other 10 R owners save the new rudder from CCI is the best money they spent on the boat.
 
CCI used to be Phils Foils located in Canada. Google them and Mona will send you all the data you need.
 
After I've been out with the new rudder all post back here to let you know what I think about it. It better work because it wasn't cheap!



Thanks. I am really hoping you get real value for the money! Thanks for sending me your feedback. I am deeply in love with this boat and hope to have her easier to handle over 20knots. I am curious about the impact on the IRC rating. I believe I asked that question on another post.. ;).

#94 Arced

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 12:47 PM

One of the other 34.7s here installed the rescue rudder a couple of years back. It is definitely more "grippy" when pressed reaching - (34.7/10R owners will understand) - but not noticeably slower in the light stuff.
IRC rating - no effect on measured draft, but maybe the carbon stock ups the ante? The fecker here rates 0.994 with pole vs our 0.999 with prod only. We carry a bit more sail area, however, and work really hard to keep the boat in balance.
Glad you love your little caravan too, Jacques!

#95 Jacques Armand

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:16 AM

Hi


Hi. I am looking for information regarding Rudder options for my First 34.7.

I just had a new rudder delivered to me but it is not yet installed. The boat is out of the water and should be back in within the week. Once I have tested it out all let you know if it's worth the money! All of the other 10 R owners save the new rudder from CCI is the best money they spent on the boat.
 
CCI used to be Phils Foils located in Canada. Google them and Mona will send you all the data you need.
 
After I've been out with the new rudder all post back here to let you know what I think about it. It better work because it wasn't cheap!
Thanks. I am really hoping you get real value for the money! Thanks for sending me your feedback. I am deeply in love with this boat and hope to have her easier to handle over 20knots. I am curious about the impact on the IRC rating. I believe I asked that question on another post.. ;).


#96 Jacques Armand

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:18 AM

Hi, so how were the first runs? Happy with the change?

#97 Parma

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 02:39 PM

still at the yard!



#98 Icedtea

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 09:20 AM

One of the other 34.7s here installed the rescue rudder a couple of years back. It is definitely more "grippy" when pressed reaching - (34.7/10R owners will understand) - but not noticeably slower in the light stuff.
IRC rating - no effect on measured draft, but maybe the carbon stock ups the ante? The fecker here rates 0.994 with pole vs our 0.999 with prod only. We carry a bit more sail area, however, and work really hard to keep the boat in balance.
Glad you love your little caravan too, Jacques!

I don't think the new rudder has an effect on the measured draft, it's just not that much lighter!

I think however it does make the waterline a tiny bit shorter...






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