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First 34.7/10R - Just finding their groove?

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#1 Arced

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

Walter B's testimony from another thread brought a tear to me eye...

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:04 AM
You made the right choice.

We bought a 10R and every day I am happier & happier with it.

Farr designed Beneteau First 10R # 3 QuoteMy beloved & I are racing our second 34.7/10R - upgraded from the first one, and missed it so much we went back. A very capable deep-sea racing caravan. Prick of a rudder - too short - but it sure keeps you honest and demands the crew learn about balance. Maybe the IRC rating and "the knowledge" are starting to converge?

#2 bluelaser2

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

its nice when you find a design that finds YOUR groove...

#3 MSA

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

Not sure about the Rudder being too small... All Beneteau's suffer the same from the ugly ass shape they have which massively reduced their W/L length which helps their rating be sooo low.
The stern shape allows the rudder to ventilate. It's faster to sail it flatter/change down sails earlier than throw a whole bunch more wetted surface area at the the issue.

But yeah you guys practically live on that thing and have a lot of fun!. Is the wine rack full?

#4 Arced

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:24 AM

A young fellow once described the 34.7 as "a whale with a toothpick hanging out of its arse". Gotta keep that toothpick in the water if you want any grip- so flat and not over-powered are definitely the key. Pretty sure the 35 has a longer foil, though they still get messy DDW. 34.7 with assie doesn't do DDW, thankfully!
There is an aftermarket rudder for the 34.7 that makes it a different boat, apparently (thread here but no first hand reports).

#5 MSA

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:34 AM

Yeah heard the same for the 35, 40, 40.7 etc etc etc.. Everyone blames the rudder :P

Might work in 35 knots when all you want is grip because you ain't going to go any faster.. but the drag in "power on" mode would hurt..

The new 35 Keel will defiantly help the boat gain some traction in the water. Less overall surface area, More fin to grip, same RM and a 4 point credit.. B)

#6 Arced

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:06 AM

Geez, you don't need another 4 points off!
It would be painful to burn some of the light air performance, but I think a Bene optimized for 20ish knots would have a deeper rudder. Even when the trimmers & helm bring their A game, the odd bowl out (Beneteau dance) seems inevitable.

#7 MSA

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:50 AM

You are right.. If it doesn't sell soon the rating well probably drop 7 points with some mods and be faster... gotta love VPP studies.... The Dance you talk of... Know it well. Over 22... Pole the jib out.. boat still sits on 10+ and the legs here aren't long enough to warrant the risk of one major F-up because a trimmer loses concentration worrying about what girl he wants to pick up later in the evening.

#8 Icedtea

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

A young fellow once described the 34.7 as "a whale with a toothpick hanging out of its arse". Gotta keep that toothpick in the water if you want any grip- so flat and not over-powered are definitely the key. Pretty sure the 35 has a longer foil, though they still get messy DDW. 34.7 with assie doesn't do DDW, thankfully!
There is an aftermarket rudder for the 34.7 that makes it a different boat, apparently (thread here but no first hand reports).

I race on one that has the new rudder, and it turns it into an entirely different animal...makes sailing her off the breeze in 25knts a joy

#9 Arced

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

Interesting. Do you run A kites only and what was the impact (subjective or measured) on light air performance?

#10 Icedtea

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:45 AM

Interesting. Do you run A kites only and what was the impact (subjective or measured) on light air performance?


We have an A2 4 and 6, keeping a sails only..... Didnt slow her down a huge amount in the light and for offahores its a godsend.

We also did away with the #1 and have a #2 $3 and #4.....suits us far better with heavy airs and offshores!

#11 walterbshaffer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

Rudder story: I thought about putting on the new rudder and submitted the new rudder profile along with the old rudder profile to the local PHRF board so they could see the difference between the 2. I was told that since the new rudder would be lighter & smaller with less drag & less displacement I would take a -3 second hit to my rating. When I said "What? The new rudder is the larger of the two!" they said "Sorry we misunderstood; because the new rudder is larger & will give you better control you will take a -3 second hit to your rating"

I have no doubt (and I mean none) that the larger rudder is definitely better for off wind and allows carrying the 1 & 2 upwind into heavier ranges than the sails themselves were designed for but since I'm already at 63/69/75 and in a fairly light wind area I can't see the benefit in going to the expense of a larger rudder for a 60/66/72 rating. If I were anywhere else I would.

Also, I think there are several different versions of the larger rudder - some are professionally designed by a NA and some are done by very knowledgeable "boat guys". Both mods get outstanding reviews.

What a boat. Happier every day.

#12 jackdaw

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

Rudder story: I thought about putting on the new rudder and submitted the new rudder profile along with the old rudder profile to the local PHRF board so they could see the difference between the 2. I was told that since the new rudder would be lighter & smaller with less drag & less displacement I would take a -3 second hit to my rating. When I said "What? The new rudder is the larger of the two!" they said "Sorry we misunderstood; because the new rudder is larger & will give you better control you will take a -3 second hit to your rating"


WBS - You know the line... 'NO ONE ever modifies their boat to slow it down'! ;^)

The PHRF board will just pick a good story to ding you the 3.

#13 SailRacer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

Forget the 10R, it is the 10M that rates 96 at CRW that makes me take notice...

Sail safe

#14 Arced

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:40 PM

jackdaw, that's so true. But the aim of the 34.7 rudder mod is to trade off some light air performance for improved heavy air performance. For a light air venue, you wouldn't do it, as Walter didn't. For offshore Ireland, it is clearly worthwhile. For Fremantle? That's my conundrum. It's often blowing dogs off chains, but we have a fair bit of light air sailing too. Which is why I am interested in whether the extra drag is significant in light air, or will just get lost in our tactical errors!

BTW, I think IRC allows the bigger rudder for free - unless, of course, Hull Factor gets tweaked to penalise a departure from the standard design?

#15 jackdaw

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

Arced,

Got it. We have the same issue with masthead kites on the 367. Handy and worth in in light airs, but you carry the extra seconds all the time.

#16 Drop Bear.

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:08 PM


Interesting. Do you run A kites only and what was the impact (subjective or measured) on light air performance?


We have an A2 4 and 6, keeping a sails only..... Didnt slow her down a huge amount in the light and for offahores its a godsend.

We also did away with the #1 and have a #2 $3 and #4.....suits us far better with heavy airs and offshores!


A sails off a pole?

Where are you sailing.?

#17 Icedtea

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:30 AM

AFAIK Farr themselves designed the boat with two rudders, one smaller which Beneteau ran with in the end and the larger which we switched to.

Benny seemed to envisige the boat as a one design med racer, hence the smaller rudder that seems to be optimised for 10knts or so

#18 Arced

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:47 AM

That makes perfect sense. Seems that the larger rudder makes for a more versatile, user-friendly boat. Wouldn't have made much difference in this case...


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#19 Wuffie

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:55 AM

Sailmaker suggested that I look at swapping the stock rudder out for a Bene 36.7 rudder. Looks wider and deeper. No idea whether the rudder stock would fit. Thoughts?

#20 Arced

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

Don't know, but someone will. One would think that a key principle of production boat building is standardization of components, so it's possible. Not sure if the carbon stock on the 34.7/10R rudder complicates things?

BTW, what is a 10M?

#21 nuttin honey

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

Rudder with carbon does fit. PM me I have more info and planning to put same on my boat shortly

#22 Arced

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:08 PM

Rudder with carbon does fit. PM me I have more info and planning to put same on my boat shortly


36.7 rudder into 34.7/10R?

#23 familysailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:37 PM

I've had my 36.7 rudder out for a little rehab along with bearing and bearing housing replacement. Did not see any carbon material... rudder stock was all fiberglass.
What's this rudder with carbon you speak of?

#24 nuttin honey

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.

#25 familysailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:10 PM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.


Okay then.

That makes sense...
I can't imagine that retrofitting a 36.7 rudder would be any less expensive than using a larger rudder expressly designed for the boat.

#26 Arced

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:05 PM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.


The STOCK on the std 34.7/10R rudder is carbon- a strength-to-weight, fatigue resistance thing, I suppose. Bene put a bit of competitive IP into the 34.7 - the GFC and the limits of the Bene faithful shagged that.

Love the boat. More each day.


#27 AzimuthIrl

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

Arced

I am about to do things wrong way around - closing in on 50 yrs - and just sold my big heavy 58' seaworthy cruiser set up for heavy weather Ireland / Scotland sailing and decided to get into Dublin Bay club racing (60-70 cruiser/racers). Looking at a 34.7/10R - did a fair bit of racing in my 20's and have good understanding of sail control and tune - two of crew will be my 10 and 8 yr old kids but have to start from scratch for reaming crew - am I off my head thinking 34.7 ?

#28 walterbshaffer

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

No.

Great all around boat.

I found that kids love dangling thier feet off the stern while we sail.

#29 Icedtea

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:13 PM

Arced

I am about to do things wrong way around - closing in on 50 yrs - and just sold my big heavy 58' seaworthy cruiser set up for heavy weather Ireland / Scotland sailing and decided to get into Dublin Bay club racing (60-70 cruiser/racers). Looking at a 34.7/10R - did a fair bit of racing in my 20's and have good understanding of sail control and tune - two of crew will be my 10 and 8 yr old kids but have to start from scratch for reaming crew - am I off my head thinking 34.7 ?


No not at all, Which one in Dublin are you looking at?

#30 Haguesail

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:37 AM

Arced

I am about to do things wrong way around - closing in on 50 yrs - and just sold my big heavy 58' seaworthy cruiser set up for heavy weather Ireland / Scotland sailing and decided to get into Dublin Bay club racing (60-70 cruiser/racers). Looking at a 34.7/10R - did a fair bit of racing in my 20's and have good understanding of sail control and tune - two of crew will be my 10 and 8 yr old kids but have to start from scratch for reaming crew - am I off my head thinking 34.7 ?


Hi Azimuth - Given your sailing venue you might also consider the X-332 -- sturdy, very high quality build, good cockpit for kids and heavier conditions, holding its value, easy to shorthand, and very competitive under IRC.

#31 Foilman

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:03 AM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.

The STOCK on the std 34.7/10R rudder is carbon- a strength-to-weight, fatigue resistance thing, I suppose. Bene put a bit of competitive IP into the 34.7 - the GFC and the limits of the Bene faithful shagged that. Love the boat. More each day.


We built the first few of the larger design (royalites to Farr) with fiberglass posts as per the design at the time.
Then a couple of customers were interested in investigating a carbon post instead - it totally makes sense - and
we shared the Farr engineering fee with them. Since then we've been building the large rudder exclusively with the
carbon post.

http://www.fastcomposites.ca/site/marine/foils-a-z/beneteau/

A similar deal is brewing with the Farr 395 (standard aluminum post to be replaced with carbon).

Cheers
Phil

#32 By the lee

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:59 AM

Why do they have such a stubby sailplan? Were ever offered with tall rig?

And what about a clew(strap)? See below @ 3:44..... :huh:



Better..........

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=w5iBb98Lppw

#33 AzimuthIrl

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:35 AM

There are 2 in Dublin (mgmboats.com) and a few in UK that I am looking at at the moment - no big rush as season starts late April

Have thought about white sails for a season to get a crew together and to know the boat ?

#34 Arced

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:52 AM

No. The replacements for the 10r / 34.7 are carbon.

The STOCK on the std 34.7/10R rudder is carbon- a strength-to-weight, fatigue resistance thing, I suppose. Bene put a bit of competitive IP into the 34.7 - the GFC and the limits of the Bene faithful shagged that. Love the boat. More each day.


We built the first few of the larger design (royalites to Farr) with fiberglass posts as per the design at the time.
Then a couple of customers were interested in investigating a carbon post instead - it totally makes sense - and
we shared the Farr engineering fee with them. Since then we've been building the large rudder exclusively with the
carbon post.

http://www.fastcomposites.ca/site/marine/foils-a-z/beneteau/

A similar deal is brewing with the Farr 395 (standard aluminum post to be replaced with carbon).

Cheers
Phil


Thanks Phil. Nice to get your input. I notice your customer testimonial says no noticeable decrease in light air performance, which addresses one of my concerns.

I will put up some thoughts on the other posters' comments below.

#35 Arced

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:41 AM

Azimuth

I think 50-ish is the perfect age to own a 34.7! We have just returned from a local regatta (Cockburn Sound Regatta), where we sailed with six crew (inc three women), slept five on board and finished third in IRC1. That gives an idea of the versatility of the boat. They are fairly simply rigged (with the A-sail only config), but technically interesting enough to provide a challenge - for example, learning to sail deep and fast with the A-sail, and keeping the boat in a straight line in breeze.

The rig is not stubby - quite high aspect in fact. With a 135% overlapper, they are fully powered in 10 knots. Most were delivered with Hall Spars carbon mast and rod rigging - that is definitely the way to go (as is a clew strap!).

A season racing "white sails" (jib & main) would be a great idea to get a feel for the boat, with some low-key kite practice on good days. You will need more grunt and weight than just a spouse and the young kids to race hard, but there will be real jobs for the little fellas (sewer rat, jib release, bow, vang trimmer (the latter being rather important when reaching on a 34.7)).

Happy New Year and good luck with the search. Icedtea will be a good contact for you in Dublin Fair City.

#36 AzimuthIrl

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:52 PM

Thanks to all for the advice and support.

Just to let you know I now am the proud owner of a 34.7/10R (2008 build launched in 2009 and dry sailed since launch - so in great shape) - She is being prepared for launch and should be good to go in the next two weeks.

Now the small problem of getting her home and getting a team together - a nice problem to have though ! http://dublinbayraceteam.blogspot.ie/

#37 Wuffie

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:10 PM

Congrats. You made a great choice. Have a great season and keep us posted on your progress.

I just wish I was as close to launch as you are. Eight more weeks to go here...

#38 walterbshaffer

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:39 PM

You absolutely luck bastard! Congratulations.

Was out yesterday, total fun, I remember saying that if I ever won millions in the lottery I would not buy a different boat.

#39 MSA

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:31 AM

http://sportspage.co...hampionship.htm

The last 3 IRC Regattas in this state the First 35 has won its division against well sailed 34.7's. One of them being "Arced" :P

Farr obviously did something right in the last 5 years..

Said First 35 is FOR SALE as well.. (No I won't buy an ad!!! As if someone in the US will buy a boat in AUD!!!)




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