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A Different WLYDO Challenge


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#1 Tom Ray

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:58 PM

A friend of mine has created a design challenge of his own, with new designs to be evaluated at an event he invented: the Florida 120. It's kind of a laid-back version of the Everglades Challenge or Texas 200, meaning normal humans who just want to have some fun and don't really have to be extreme about it can participate.

He put his design challenge up on Facebook and I have put the file on my server here:

Florida 120 2013 Design Challenge PDF file

This challenge is open to all comers, so I think it should be a bit harder for the WLYDO, which has professionals in the ranks.

My reactions/modifications to his challenge:

1. Towed? I already own four trailers. The boat should ride in my 8' truck bed and/or on top of the truck.

2. I'd settle for "possible" rather than "easy" to beach launch, but it's going to have to operate in shallow water.

3. Sleeping under way should also be possible.

4. It should be powered by a Hobie Mirage Drive, among other methods.

5. I'd reduce the capacity to 400 lbs. I weigh less and eat less than Scott.

He misspelled aesthetics, but that's fine. I don't give a shit how a boat looks. Like Bolger, I need frequent reminding that technical considerations should not always trump appearance. Do not remind me. This one will look fine if it finishes.

I've got Sailrocket on the brain. Let's make it a kite-powered Proa or something.

Have at it!

#2 SemiSalt

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:42 AM

Thanks for pointing this out.

If you call up one of the videos of the start of an Everglades challenge with all the boats on the beach, you get an idea of how many different approaches there can be to this problem. Just about any small boat is a candidate, even a sailing Whitehall. I would guess that the best-known boats are the Welsford SCAMP and Matt Leyden's Paradox. The Hobie Mirage Venture Island has been pretty successful for a zany little boat conceived for something else.

I guess my approach would be something like a Hobie Getaway with a couple big plastic ice chests tied down for storage. Sort of a poor man's Hobie Sport Cruiser 21. Chris Ostlind keeps sketching boats like this. See:http://tinyurl.com/aj97jhc I'm not sure how many of his ideas get to the building plan stage.

#3 Tom Ray

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:50 AM

The Hobie Adventure Island is a fun toy (full disclosure: I'm head of the local chapter of the Hobie Island Club, which currently consists of myself and my wife, I'm a former dealer, and I'm occasionally working with the current local dealer, including this weekend) but the problem is that open boats are required by the EC rules and by common sense to have a drysuit.

Living in a dry suit for most of a week is NOT on my bucket list.

I think the coolest answer to the Everglades Challenge that I have seen is the Everglades Challenge 22, but that seems like a lot of boat to do something that can be done with a SCAMP. There are plenty of other answers waiting to be found.

#4 WHL

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:21 AM

21ft Cedar strip or carbon Ocean Kayak with detachable outriggers, a wishbone rig with reefs, dagger board, rudder, watertight storage, "pop top" section of the cockpit, coupled with a sliding seat to allow reclining to sleep.
Advantages:
- car top capable
- at no more than 65lbs, relatively easy to carry, launch, and portage
- 21ft kayak will support 500lbs
- stable with the outriggers deployed for sailing and sleep.
- Long slim hull will paddle and sail fast - capable of reaching 6 knots paddling (until puffed out) and at least that under sail.

#5 Tom Ray

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

I'm pretty sure that would be another "drysuit required" kind of boat, WHL.

#6 WHL

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:54 AM

I'm pretty sure that would be another "drysuit required" kind of boat, WHL.

Yep. preferably a Kokatat Expedition suit B) but they can be vented.
I wore mine for 5 days on an offshore race where it was sunny and hot during the day , and very wet, and cold at night. The goretex that Kokatat uses is very breathable.

#7 Tom Ray

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

Hmmm... So you're saying I should reconsider my wardrobe requirements? I'll think about it, considering the source of the advice.

Last I looked, those suits were around a thousand bucks. You can get a full CNC kit to build a SCAMP for $2,300. Sail kit is $700. That boat requires no clothes I do not already own and has amply demonstrated its capability.

New requirement: the boat, including all required clothing, must be under $3,000. Can a 21 foot cedar or carbon boat with outriggers, sail, etc be built for the $2k remaining in the budget after a drysuit is acquired? Because if not, the SCAMP has it beat. We're not going to let those Small Craft guys beat the WLYDO, are we? ;)

#8 SemiSalt

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

I'll bet you have at least $3500, maybe $4000, in a SCAMP before you go sailing once you include tools and sandpaper. I'd rather have a Tread Lightly myself for the ability to sleep under a hard roof. More of a problem on the beach, though.

A different style worth looking at is exemplified by the Sea Pearl. Twenty-One feet gives welcome LWL, and a nice tent over the cockpit improves livability.

Posted Image

#9 SemiSalt

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:04 PM

You might also contemplate the good experiences that Gary Blankenship has had with a modified Michalak Frolic 2.

http://www.duckworks...olic2/index.htm

When I asked how a short boat like SCAMP could do so well in these long distance events, John Welsford said the secret is not in the boat, it's in the sailor. The ability go keep going and going is the important thing.

#10 Tom Ray

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

The ability to keep going and going also obviates the need for shore camping and the associated mud, raccoons, bugs, etc. I live in the Florida swamps. Don't need to camp in them and would rather stay on the boat, which might as well keep moving.

#11 Steam Flyer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

A shorter boat will be-
...heavy & expensive for it's length
... slow(er) and wet(ter) than the same hull & rig stretched out longer
... less able to make progress against bad/rough conditions

To spend a couple of days sailing, the boat will need a certain amount of cubic capacity. The more you are willing to 'rough it' the less that needs to be.

I see the case for making the longest hull that will fit the weight limit & desired capacity rather than trying to pick an LOA.

Frolic2 looks nice but it will be heavy... try lifting up 13 sheets of plywood some time but be careful of your back trying it. And double chine boats often slam more than flat-bottom ones, when they heel under sail they present as big a flat area whereas a flat bottom turns into a V when heeled.

IMHO one of the keys to making a successful design along these lines is 1- to make it strong & tough enough to not come apart when the going gets tough 2- make it have good performance without stressing the sailor(s) 3- keep the manual propulsion from interfering with the sail rig & vice versa. Most of the "creative" designs for this kind of event I have seen fail miserably at one or more of the above... not saying -I- have the answer, just saying where the most improvement could come in

We had a Sea Pearl for a while, it was a nice row/sail boat. But it was rather heavy & tippy. It's best points were easy & quick to rig, and one person could row while the other sailed if desired... the two didn't interfere with each other at all.

BTW to those kayak enthusiasts, the rowing boats beat the paddlers at all these 'raid' type events. The longer the distance, the more the margin favors oar power. Not saying what's better, just giving the facts.

FB- Doug

#12 SemiSalt

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

Frolic2 looks nice but it will be heavy... try lifting up 13 sheets of plywood some time but be careful of your back trying it.


Quite. I had a Bolger Cynthia J., about the same weight. It was not easy to move on a beach.

#13 Ishmael

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:00 PM


Frolic2 looks nice but it will be heavy... try lifting up 13 sheets of plywood some time but be careful of your back trying it.


Quite. I had a Bolger Cynthia J., about the same weight. It was not easy to move on a beach.


How about a folding schooner? Easier to pick up if it's in two pieces...

#14 SemiSalt

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

The idea of a two piece boat is good. The Bolger folding schooner is not so good. The two parts are pretty permanently hinged, and it has a lot of parts and a lot of strings to pull. Also a lot of sail area in a very low-sided boat.

#15 Tom Ray

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:37 PM

The infamous folding schooner is amusing, but I already ruled out another trailer and can't get both halves on top of the truck. ;)

#16 Jose Carumba

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

The infamous folding schooner is amusing, but I already ruled out another trailer and can't get both halves on top of the truck. ;)


Do you have a standard bed or a long bed on your truck? You should be able to fit at the minimum an 18 ft boat, in 2 halves, in your truck with the tailgate down and the ends overhanging a bit. The boat halves could be joined like the P.T. 11 skiff.

#17 Tom Ray

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:25 PM

It's an 8' bed and I have at times put a 16' kayak in there, but I think the folding schooner halves add up to more height than I've got. It has a topper and roof racks.

#18 Jose Carumba

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

It's an 8' bed and I have at times put a 16' kayak in there, but I think the folding schooner halves add up to more height than I've got. It has a topper and roof racks.


Put 1/2 in the bed and the other 1/2 on the roof rack?

#19 WHL

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:38 PM

Tom, as much as some of the pocket boats you've posted are neat little cruisers, a number of the challenges in the rules appear to need a light, nimble boat more than one you can sleep in comfortably i.e. if it were me, I'd go for speed and portability and HTFU at the comfort end of the spectrum :D

50 miles a day (assuming you'd want to cover most of it in daylight) is asking a lot of small boats, particularly if it's rough upwind. The reason I like the expedition kayak type of solution (or could be a canoe) is:
- They can be carried easily.
- Fast under sail - at least 5 knots close reaching is not unreasonable
- They paddle relatively easliy into headwinds and seas and take less energy compared with a rowing boat or anything more frontal area, windage etc...

We should take a look at the chart and weather for that time of year to see the extent to which they also influence the design. I'll plot the course in Expedition and post it.

Launch point: Shoreline Park in Gulf Breeze
Destination: Specter Island 8 miles East of Navarre and 30 miles from launch
Other: whole day is on Santa Rosa sound and is generally a windward slog.

Friday: Sail west back down Santa Rosa Sound and across the mouth of Pensacola Bay to Sand Island - approximately 40 miles
Other: last 10 miles is on Pensacola Bay which, being a bigger body of water, can develop some chop

Saturday: Sail 25 miles northeast up Pensacola Bay to Redfish Cove and into Blackwater Bay to Skull Island
Other: can be choppy past Sand island into Gulf

Sunday: 25 miles as the fleet returns to Gulf Breeze or wherever you launched.



#20 WHL

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:39 AM

Here's the approximate course. It sure is shallow once out of the channels to the east, and narrow in places.
It looks like a centerboard/dagger board boat with a lifting rudder, and less than a 2ft draft, that can go to windward, would be useful.
Tom do you know where Skull Island is in Blackwater Bay? it's not on any NOAA or C-Map charts I've looked at. Do you also know where Sand Island is too? I've guessed at the location of Sand Island based on last year's course and picked one of a small numer of islands at the top of Blackwater Bay.

Attached File  Florida 120 course.jpg   75.76K   25 downloads
Attached File  Florida 120 course start finish.jpg   112K   27 downloads Attached File  Florida 120 course-Eastern end.jpg   75.17K   23 downloads
Attached File  Florida 120 course-Western end.jpg   93.33K   21 downloads Attached File  Florida 120 course-northern.jpg   136.61K   17 downloads

#21 rattus32

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:52 AM

They really should rename this the Tour de Redneck Riviera.

#22 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:03 AM

They really should rename this the Tour de Redneck Riviera.

Funny or the ugly head of what CA seems to have, hmmm.

What about a PD Racer, how cool does this look
Posted Image

#23 rattus32

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:23 AM


They really should rename this the Tour de Redneck Riviera.

Funny or the ugly head of what CA seems to have, hmmm.

What about a PD Racer, how cool does this look
Posted Image


In a good wind, bet they're a blast, but I'd hate to be the one having to paddle or row that when the wind dies, which it will in FL.

#24 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:12 AM

That PD racer belongs to Scott, who invented the FL 120. He's also the two time Sun Cat National Champion. He sailed that thing all the way to Estero in the last Everglades Challenge, which was pretty impressive considering how many boats did not make it that far. Last year's dropout rate was the worst ever.

Here's Scott holding the coveted Sun Cat National Championship bumper:

Posted Image

WHL, I am not familiar with the FL 120 route. That race happens at a bad time of year for me. If I ever do participate, I'll use our Sun Cat and not be afraid to use the engine, which is kinda how that one goes.

This is more a thought puzzle than a real challenge for me at this point, and I'm more interested in solving the problems presented by the Everglades Challenge and TX 200 than the FL 120. I just liked Scott's design challenge and decided to bring it here for some help.

Two things interest me about the EC:

1. It's my kind of boating and happens in my back yard, yet I'm not sure I can do it. That's something that has been bothering me since I first went to see the start of the race a couple of years ago. There should not be any kind of event that happens here and involves my kind of boats and still seems difficult/impossible to me, yet these maniacs have come up with one. I feel I have to do it one day, preferably before I get a whole lot older.

2. Even with all of the many answers I have seen to the question of what kind of boat to use, none of them seem quite right. There has to be at least one better answer.

Semisalt mentioned Gary Blankenship's Oaracle, which seems pretty darn close to a right answer.

Posted Image


That ugly little thing took off upwind in a pretty impressive way, considering it does not look like something that should go upwind much at all.


Posted Image

I mentioned a proa, but the truth is, that would put me in the mutlihull class. Despite my usual affinity for multihulls, I have a bit of a problem with competing in that class. The problem is, Randy Smyth and the nutjobs who sail the beach cats are completely crazy. They go nonstop for about 40 hours and really don't sleep much, if at all. If I go in a multihull, I don't want to punish myself that bad, so would have to accept losing badly against the class. I don't really have a problem with being beaten by better sailors, it happens all the time. My problem is more that any boat I would want to sail would be so much slower that it would be like not even competing against the class, which seems wrong somehow. I could get over this problem for the right boat.

I mostly just wanted to see what you people would come up with, hoping it would spur some productive thought.

#25 SemiSalt

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:20 PM

Semisalt mentioned Gary Blankenship's Oaracle, which seems pretty darn close to a right answer.


I like the size and the general idea, but it's really a pretty rough boat. A more polished design of the same general type might be Welsford's Sweet Pea:

Posted Image

I don't know how the weight would compare. If you want to get there fast, you want AWOL:

Posted Image

#26 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

The first one looks nice, Semi, and looks like a boat on which sleeping under way might be possible. That second one looks like another drysuit boat to me.

#27 MisterMoon

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

I had lunch with Scott earlier this week where he showed me his plan for the contest mentioned above. He had a 12'er drawn that looked OK, but I always argue for more length. He called me yesterday to tell me he'd cut it down to 10', and I argued again that he was crazy. Once you start butting two sheets of plywood together, you might as well go for max length, which would be almost 16' depending on how curvy you make it.

I keep waiting for him to come to the right answer to this question, which is a multihull sailing kayak of course.

Scott just built another curvy v-bottome 8' pram to one of my designs that he claims is better than his EC Duck in every way. Having helped him move boats around his yard this week, I can say it's for damn sure a lot lighter!

BTW, the FL120 is a lot of fun and highly recommended for small boat cruisers. I've done two out of the four years and will be back again in May.

FYI 'Skull Island' is called Grassy Point up in Blackwater Bay north of Pensacola Bay. We ran into a local group there from nearby Milton, and they called the place Skull Island. Sand Island is sometimes called Robertson Island on the charts. It's the big spoil island on the ICW between Ft. McRee and the Naval Air Station.

#28 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:07 PM

I keep waiting for him to come to the right answer to this question, which is a multihull sailing kayak of course.


The Adventure Islands have done remarkably well for a Hobie toy.

Careful how you follow that road. At the end lies madness...

Posted Image

#29 Steam Flyer

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

... ....
I mostly just wanted to see what you people would come up with, hoping it would spur some productive thought.


Here's the best little, simple, boat I know of... PRISM. It's intended to the be the most boat (defined as having the most enclosed cubic, or presumably the biggest potential displacement) possible to build out of one std sheet of ply.

Attached File  boat 1-sheet ply PRISM v2.jpg   140.4K   0 downloads

It would be very easy to make it longer, give it somewhat longer curves, and add bow & stern decks then put in a sailing rig. An Opti sail would be perfect for it; or if you really had big brass ones, a Laser.

Attached File  boat 1-sheet ply PRISM v2b.jpg   147.01K   0 downloads

I love the Norseboat and very much like that SWEET PEA design; however one thing to realize is that you're dragging along a lot of extra material for the sake of having it look nice. Take a gander at a modern surf dory and think about something similar to that... gets rid of a lot windage & weight. I have some ideas but not much time to sketch them out just now. Will this thread still be here when I get done drilling holes in my real boat?

FB- Doug

#30 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

Was waiting for you to show up with your swamp critter, Doug.

Surf Dory? What's that?

#31 pogen

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:12 PM

Posted Image



Ah, memories, I owned a Norseboat 17.5 before going to the Dark and Expensive Side of big boat ownership.

A Norseboat won the Everglades Challenge back in 2005 or something, but have not done as well against the planing Core Sound types ever since. Still it's a great boat, though not super weatherly.

#32 WHL

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

............snip.....


WHL, I am not familiar with the FL 120 route. That race happens at a bad time of year for me. If I ever do participate, I'll use our Sun Cat and not be afraid to use the engine, which is kinda how that one goes.

This is more a thought puzzle than a real challenge for me at this point, and I'm more interested in solving the problems presented by the Everglades Challenge and TX 200 than the FL 120. I just liked Scott's design challenge and decided to bring it here for some help.

Two things interest me about the EC:

1. It's my kind of boating and happens in my back yard, yet I'm not sure I can do it. That's something that has been bothering me since I first went to see the start of the race a couple of years ago. There should not be any kind of event that happens here and involves my kind of boats and still seems difficult/impossible to me, yet these maniacs have come up with one. I feel I have to do it one day, preferably before I get a whole lot older.
.....snip.....

My problem is more that any boat I would want to sail would be so much slower that it would be like not even competing against the class, which seems wrong somehow. I could get over this problem for the right boat.

I mostly just wanted to see what you people would come up with, hoping it would spur some productive thought.


Well if you're not being literal about the contest rules for the Florida 120 and having to portage the boat, then there are all kinds of pocket cruiser solutions. What are the key requirements? From what you'e mentioned in various posts would these be the key ones e.g.
Price
Accommodation under sail
Windward ability
Speed

#33 MisterMoon

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:42 PM

Tom, as much as some of the pocket boats you've posted are neat little cruisers, a number of the challenges in the rules appear to need a light, nimble boat more than one you can sleep in comfortably i.e. if it were me, I'd go for speed and portability and HTFU at the comfort end of the spectrum :D

50 miles a day (assuming you'd want to cover most of it in daylight) is asking a lot of small boats, particularly if it's rough upwind. The reason I like the expedition kayak type of solution (or could be a canoe) is:
- They can be carried easily.
- Fast under sail - at least 5 knots close reaching is not unreasonable
- They paddle relatively easliy into headwinds and seas and take less energy compared with a rowing boat or anything more frontal area, windage etc...

We should take a look at the chart and weather for that time of year to see the extent to which they also influence the design. I'll plot the course in Expedition and post it.


Launch point: Shoreline Park in Gulf Breeze
Destination: Specter Island 8 miles East of Navarre and 30 miles from launch
Other: whole day is on Santa Rosa sound and is generally a windward slog.

Friday: Sail west back down Santa Rosa Sound and across the mouth of Pensacola Bay to Sand Island - approximately 40 miles
Other: last 10 miles is on Pensacola Bay which, being a bigger body of water, can develop some chop

Saturday: Sail 25 miles northeast up Pensacola Bay to Redfish Cove and into Blackwater Bay to Skull Island
Other: can be choppy past Sand island into Gulf

Sunday: 25 miles as the fleet returns to Gulf Breeze or wherever you launched.


FWIW, a lot of boats made the entire route last year and many if not most were motorless. Last year's event was a bit of a blessing and a curse, with northerlies in the morning that faded to nothing until the SSE seabreeze finally filled in. The 'usual' weather pattern is SE winds all the time. Windward ability is a must. The narrow channels east of the Navarre bridge aren't as narrow as you think and nothing a small boat shouldn't be able to short-tack for a while.

Shallow draft is a big help, but the good news is there isn't very much to hit other than sand. (Although I did find one bit of rocky debris on the west side of Pensacola Pass with my centerboard this year.)

And finally, the design contest is just one aspect of the FL120 springing from Scott's fertile ADD mind and is not mandatory. Most of us like the sailing in company and hanging out in the evenings together. Some of us make some music, some drink lots of gin, some prepare nice meals, some hang out and talk.

#34 Ravac

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:17 PM

I'm kinda digging the Drascombe Coaster.

Posted Image

#35 TheFlash

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

Mono max waterline in restricted length rule(is there a length rule expected) would argue for a Scow, no? something like a scaled down 777 Mini? Should go upwind, and reach/plane very well.

#36 SemiSalt

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

I tend to think that the key point in design is the construction, and especially how to get light weight in a boat that's strong enough. A rough and ready plywood boat, a .la Michalak, is not going to be light in weight. A thin plywood core with fiberglass in and out, a la Jaques Mertens at bateau.com, can be a lot lighter. Also a lot more work.

(I find Mertens' "Adelie" designs somewhat preposterous, but I have little doubt that they function.)

#37 SemiSalt

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

Mono max waterline in restricted length rule(is there a length rule expected) would argue for a Scow, no? something like a scaled down 777 Mini? Should go upwind, and reach/plane very well.


A Michalak-designed pram-style boat did very well in the Texas 200, but the winds there are reliably from behind.

#38 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:36 PM

WHL and OR,

The main restriction related to length/portage ability is part of the Everglades Challenge rules: you must launch the boat off the beach from above the high tide line, and you must carry with you any equipment used to do so.

#39 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:39 PM

BTW, Scott asked me whether I'd be interested in the Everglades Challenge in a Picnic Cat and I was unable to say no. I doubt it will happen at this point, but not impossible.

I have another friend who is interested in doing it with me and he meets the main qualification: he doesn't whine or give up.

#40 Steam Flyer

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:31 PM

Was waiting for you to show up with your swamp critter, Doug.

Surf Dory? What's that?


Swamp Critter is not really even a firm set of hull lines at this point, it's just sort of a nebulous concept of melding of a rough-water shell (rowing, that is) and sportboat with a pup-tent-size cuddy grafted on. I am struggling with putting a cool-looking bow on it that doesn't look like a shoe.

Drascombe boats are very cool but very heavy. That's the general problem with all the traditional types, they weigh a ton before carrying a load... of course they are generally evolved from work boats so they -do- carry a ton (literally!) quite well.

Kayakers, prepare to hate me... paddle propulsion is just not efficient enough to compete, even with pushing much lighter smaller-cross-sectioned craft. Boats like this one (linky linky) literally whomp the fastest paddlers even on shorter RAID-style events.

A surf dory is a rowing boat with lots of flare, used for beach rescues and competitions that simulate rescuing people off a beach. If you ever get a chance to watch a Lifeguard Olympics this will probably be one of the events and if the surf is up, it's worth watching. Problem is that they rely on lots of rocker which is not fast. There are some other types evolved for rough-water rowing and beach work worth taking a look at.

I've got a couple of ideas for combining rowing & sailing efficiently; one avenue which has not been explored is using exisiting racing class rigs. The blue-tarp-lugsail brigade is determined tosave $$ which is great -but- why not hunt around on Craigslist for a rig which might be cheaper (especially in not sucking up lots of shop time & spar-grade spruce) and which will actually goto windward properly? Not to mention flying a spinnaker for those rare occasions when the wind is blowing the way you want to go.

FB- Doug

#41 Ishmael

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:17 AM

This concept intrigues me...a 60-lb boat that can carry 4.

Posted Image

Cool-looking to boot.

http://www.gaboats.c...s/blivit13.html


The SnowShoe 12 is on my short list of build possibilities. 19 lbs.

Posted Image

#42 Tom Ray

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:48 AM

Those are very interesting, Ish. Thanks!

#43 WHL

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:09 AM

Ish, that's an impressive looking sailing dinghy - light, amazing capacity, long enough to sleep/camp in, looks like it will perform well particularly off the wind, simple wishbone rig, cheap to build... nice

They have some interesting canoes too.

#44 Tom Ray

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:46 AM

I particularly liked their responses to anticipated objections about the heat-shrink Dacron aircraft skin: pick it up so you don't hurt it and carry some duct tape in case you do hurt it anyway. :lol:

That's a good answer, but might not work out so well if encountering an oyster bar in the 10,000 Islands at night. How much duct tape again? ;)

#45 Steam Flyer

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

OK, here's an idea for a 15 footer. Shown in multichine for those who like ply, but could easily be foam & glass.

1- size constraint to not need a trailer,or to be carried on a little fold-up utility trailer. Launch by hand. 15' LOA by 6'2" Bm. Weight=?? but should be able to bring in a ply version ~250lb
2- lots of relatively dry stowage
3- fast under man or sail power
... sail-carrying power: skimming dish shape, wide beam for hiking
... rowing, less wetted surface
... angled assymetrical daggerboards can be pulled completely out for rowing, no slot or other drag, can also provide lateral resistance for beating in ~ 2' deep water
4- raised self-bailing deck for reserve bouyancy in bad weather, provides dry place to sleep for off-beach camping

I would put a rig on it from any of a bunch of racing classes available on Craigslist for cheap. A 470 mast and sail set would be fine, maybe a bigger spinnaker. This hull could carry 250 sq ft and would plane nicely.

perspective

Attached File  15ft Skull Isle raid DSK v2a.jpg   117.34K   0 downloads

side view at slight angle

Attached File  15ft Skull Isle raid DSK v2c.jpg   52.48K   0 downloads

from astern

Attached File  15ft Skull Isle raid DSK v2d.jpg   64.76K   0 downloads

I envision rolling a dodger/tent up under the "cabin" trunk so it can be pulled out & spread over the boat in relatively little time. The rest of the supplies can be tucked within reach of the bulkhead at the cabin/deck. It would be kinda cramped for two guys but roomy for one. It's a board boat that can provide shelter!

At first I had a vision of a boat with room under the side decks & cuddy for one partner to lay down & sleep inside while underway but this was too bulky and just plain going to be heavy. For something that elaborate, I think pulling LOA out to at least 18' and the hull weight would be lot more.

Opinions?

FB- Doug

#46 WHL

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

FB what's the rationale for two daggerboards versus one? Is it so you can have asymm boards for more lift upwind?

#47 Steam Flyer

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:34 PM

FB what's the rationale for two daggerboards versus one? Is it so you can have asymm boards for more lift upwind?


That, plus the boards & trunks can be out on the flare of the hull, where the slot is out of the water when level... less drag when rowing.

FB- Doug

#48 SemiSalt

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:56 PM


FB what's the rationale for two daggerboards versus one? Is it so you can have asymm boards for more lift upwind?


That, plus the boards & trunks can be out on the flare of the hull, where the slot is out of the water when level... less drag when rowing.

FB- Doug


If the water is as shallow as advertized, daggerboards might be more trouble than CBs.

#49 Tom Ray

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

Interesting solution to the slot drag problem, Doug.

The other day I took one of the shallow branches of the creek and was feeling my way along the bottom with the (long suffering) tip of my Adventure Island daggerboard. Asking for trouble if there's an obstacle you don't see that is hard, but I've done it lots of times without breaking anything yet.

#50 Tom Ray

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:47 PM

What do you suppose will happen if you pull the boards and row into some waves? I think you'll get geysers on either side of you, which would be pretty amusing for a short while and maybe less drag than slots that stay in the water, but soon enough plugs will be wanted.

#51 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:53 PM

Surf Dory? What's that?


forget about surf dorys

they are not for internet codgers but fearless strong types

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#52 Tom Ray

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:57 PM

Just because it's named a surf dory does not mean you need to take it into big breakers, does it? ;)

#53 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:58 PM

mmm, well lassies do ?

but theres a fair chance they play rugby too
Posted Image

Posted Image
Posted Image

#54 Tucky

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:23 PM

This concept intrigues me...a 60-lb boat that can carry 4.

Posted Image

Cool-looking to boot.

http://www.gaboats.c...s/blivit13.html


The SnowShoe 12 is on my short list of build possibilities. 19 lbs.

Posted Image


Back in the day I used to work the Maine Boatbuilder's show with Platt Monfort, the inventor of the Aerolite boat. He was sort of a backwoods Bucky Fuller, full of amazing ideas. I have a kit for one of the little prams which would be the perfect tender for my multihull, and wouldn't weigh down the davits on a 30 footer as much as the davits would. I miss him, and people like him, and need to build the boat and call it Platt.

#55 SemiSalt

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:58 PM

I was wondering what Phil Bolger would have offered. I didn't find any flat-bottom, sharpie style boats that seemed to fit the bill, though he did mention beach cruising from time to time. The one he thought was his best effort in that direction is the one pictured. He called it Felucca. It's round-bottom and cold-moulded. The middle of the boat is clear for sleeping and there decks/compartments at either end. The rig is aimed at simplicity at the expense of performance.

Attached File  Felucca+-+sail+plan.jpg   55.1K   1 downloads

As he noted, it would be a very expensive boat to have built.

#56 Tom Ray

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:03 AM

Hee hee, speaking of expensive boats to have built, check out this furniture grade Puddle Duck Racer.

Posted Image

Posted Image

It's going to get a blue hull. The owner did not want it to live outside and puzzled over how to get his wife to allow it indoors. The solution: exotic and beautiful woods and a glass top. It's going to be a coffee table when not in use! Possibly not the best use of vanishing hardwoods, but excellent wife management. ;)

#57 Tucky

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

It's going to get a blue hull. The owner did not want it to live outside and puzzled over how to get his wife to allow it indoors. The solution: exotic and beautiful woods and a glass top. It's going to be a coffee table when not in use! Possibly not the best use of vanishing hardwoods, but excellent wife management. ;)


I thought that was called "husbanding your resources". Or "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer".

#58 Steam Flyer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:47 PM

Hee hee, speaking of expensive boats to have built, check out this furniture grade Puddle Duck Racer.

Posted Image

Posted Image

It's going to get a blue hull. The owner did not want it to live outside and puzzled over how to get his wife to allow it indoors. The solution: exotic and beautiful woods and a glass top. It's going to be a coffee table when not in use! Possibly not the best use of vanishing hardwoods, but excellent wife management. ;)


Cool

And I bet you can stack a lot of magazines on the trailer, too.

FB- Doug

#59 Steam Flyer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:58 PM

... ... ...
If the water is as shallow as advertized, daggerboards might be more trouble than CBs.


Mmm, matter of taste. A lot of people make a big deal out of daggerboards not pivoting back when hitting the bottom -but- I've run aground a lot (now there's an accomplishment to brag about) in everything from Sunfish to big catamarans. Yes it's possible to crunch a board but it's easily possible to damage centerboards too. What happens 90+% of the time, the boat comes to a stop and you pull the board up.

About the slots spitting- yes but in conditions like that you'd be getting some spray anyway. It wouldn't be difficult to put flaps or gaskets on the trunks. A boat this low is going get the crew wet any time there's enough wind to haul ass; I went ahead and cut down the freeboard to keep it light on the assumption that no boat you can carry in the back of a pickemup is going to keep the crew dry once conditions get bouncy anyway.

Rowing in a cross wind & chop is the scenario I am working on. It will take a little more work to get the boards more out of the way of the oars. This boat is also designed to be more user-friendly than say an IC Canoe which could not carry camping gear much less sleep aboard, but would whip the competition handily.

GS thanks for the pics of surf dories. That looks like big-time fun, and very capable boats.

FB- Doug

#60 Ravac

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

Drascombe boats are very cool but very heavy. That's the general problem with all the traditional types, they weigh a ton before carrying a load... of course they are generally evolved from work boats so they -do- carry a ton (literally!) quite well.


Yeah - I looked a little deeper, and that Coaster displaces over 1000#. Probably a bit much to drag down the beach.

#61 Ishmael

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:01 PM


Drascombe boats are very cool but very heavy. That's the general problem with all the traditional types, they weigh a ton before carrying a load... of course they are generally evolved from work boats so they -do- carry a ton (literally!) quite well.


Yeah - I looked a little deeper, and that Coaster displaces over 1000#. Probably a bit much to drag down the beach.


While lying in bed this morning, I had a scathingly brilliant idea regarding the beach launching: helium balloons.

#62 Tom Ray

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:03 PM

Ish, last year you would have been dragging those into a pretty strong onshore wind. If there were enough to help lift, there would be enough to create quite a bit of windage.

#63 Ishmael

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

Details, details...

#64 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:03 AM

It's always so difficult to tell a stroke of brilliance from a brain fart.

;)

#65 floating dutchman

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:51 AM

Ish, last year you would have been dragging those into a pretty strong onshore wind. If there were enough to help lift, there would be enough to create quite a bit of windage.


Put the helium in the buoyancy tanks.

#66 SemiSalt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

If you are not hung up on racing speed, then you should looks at the Welsford Walkabout: Not that it's a slow boat, but it isn't a racing boat.

Posted Image

It was designed for the Maine Island Trail which is open water and big swells, occasional strong winds. A Florida version could be lighter with less capacity. It was designed for oars as well as sails. More info here: http://www.duckworks...about/index.htm Some people have considered for the EC, but I don't know that one done it yet.

#67 Tom Ray

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:48 PM

I wonder how much that would weigh if built with that heat-shrink Dacron skin?

#68 Steam Flyer

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:06 PM

I wonder how much that would weigh if built with that heat-shrink Dacron skin?


Well, the design weight is stated to be 200 lbs which IMHO is a bit optimistic for a ply 16-footer. If you could build one of these to weigh 200 then you could build my design above to be 140 or so, it's really that much less materiel at baseline. Another issue is the self-bailing, a traditional boat like the Walkabout will be carrying at least a couple of gallons of water around any time there is enough wind to fully power up.

It's a beautiful boat and sure to be (like all his designs) at the high end of performance for traditional types. I was thinking about stretching it just enough to add a little cuddy without spoiling the looks and a higher self-bailing sole... have to figure out where to take some weight out of it though.

"To improve any boat...simplicate and add lightness" -Uffa Fox

FB- Doug

#69 SemiSalt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:15 PM

It's a beautiful boat and sure to be (like all his designs) at the high end of performance for traditional types. I was thinking about stretching it just enough to add a little cuddy without spoiling the looks and a higher self-bailing sole... have to figure out where to take some weight out of it though.


I believe that one of the notions for for JW and Chuck L. to participate in the EC in a stretched version. I think Chuck built the boat.

#70 SemiSalt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

I wonder how much that would weigh if built with that heat-shrink Dacron skin?


I don't know if you've ever seen any of the Monfort boats in the flesh, but along with the very light Dacron skin, all the wood structure is also very light. It's easy to imagine a loaded boat (included loaded with water) suffering severe structural damage. Also, sailboats don't necessarily benefit from very light weight without some compensating factor like being a multihull, or having a super-athletic crew.

But I have pondered some ideas along the same line i.e. a big canoe fitted out to sail as well as possible. I'm thinking something along the lines of the Grumman aluminum canoes of yore, though maybe a little beamier if starting from scratch. There is no reason why it couldn't have a fabric skin. The sailor would have to work harder than in a boat like Walkabout, probably sitting on a seat out over the windward rail. For me, being out in the sun and wind would be very bad news unless I was set up with intravenous Gatorade, but that's just because I'm old and frail. Or at least, not young and hardy.

#71 Steam Flyer

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:57 PM


It's a beautiful boat and sure to be (like all his designs) at the high end of performance for traditional types. I was thinking about stretching it just enough to add a little cuddy without spoiling the looks and a higher self-bailing sole... have to figure out where to take some weight out of it though.


I believe that one of the notions for for JW and Chuck L. to participate in the EC in a stretched version. I think Chuck built the boat.


Stretching a design is a good option IMHO. It doesn't increase the weight proportionally, but the cubic, the speed, the stability, all increase above linear proportion.

For example, another great Welsfor design is the 17 1/2' Pathfinder (clicky linky) which is very similar in form to the 16' Walkabout but it weighs more than twice as much... here's one with a with cuddy cabin (clicky linky)... I bet if you just spaced the frames for a Walkabout 10% further apart, you'd get a boat that was much bigger & faster but only about 150% as heavy.

Still doesn't solve the sleeping-in-a-puddle problem. I amy be overly agonizing about this, but I spend too long a period of my life cruising in boats that leaked. Putting all your gear in a watertight bag, bringing along another bag just for towels, and bringing along an extra ration of fresh water to sponge the salt off everything, all adds nothing to the enjoyment and quite a lot to the baggage encumbrance (especially on a <20-footer). Maybe those who are less spoiled and effete can just shrug it off and spend a few nights sleeping in a wet salty bed. Having a front row seat in the wilderness makes up for a LOT !!

A Welsford boat that addresses this very problem... and also starts from my favorite and most familiar jumping-off point, the racing one-design dinghy classes... is AWOL (another clicky click link) with a big watertight raised deck inside. Not as traditional-looking though, and I don't know if there is provision for effective rowing.


I wonder how much that would weigh if built with that heat-shrink Dacron skin?


I don't know if you've ever seen any of the Monfort boats in the flesh, but along with the very light Dacron skin, all the wood structure is also very light. It's easy to imagine a loaded boat (included loaded with water) suffering severe structural damage. Also, sailboats don't necessarily benefit from very light weight without some compensating factor like being a multihull, or having a super-athletic crew.

But I have pondered some ideas along the same line i.e. a big canoe fitted out to sail as well as possible. I'm thinking something along the lines of the Grumman aluminum canoes of yore, though maybe a little beamier if starting from scratch. There is no reason why it couldn't have a fabric skin. The sailor would have to work harder than in a boat like Walkabout, probably sitting on a seat out over the windward rail. For me, being out in the sun and wind would be very bad news unless I was set up with intravenous Gatorade, but that's just because I'm old and frail. Or at least, not young and hardy.


^ This ^
Except that intravenous Gatorade isn'tgoing to help me much.
:o

If you had a shop that could work sheet metal, you could do a big aluminum canoe. 18 foot-ish... bigger would gain more benefit from the material... maybe half-decked to keep it a bit dryer inside. A boat like this could take a LOT more knocking around and shrug it off than any other material I can think of, but it would need to be sized & scantling-ed (is that a real word) carefully to keep the weight within practical beaching weight.

FB- Doug

#72 SemiSalt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

If you had a shop that could work sheet metal, you could do a big aluminum canoe.


Or you could just buy one.

http://www.marathonboat.com/grummancanoes.asp

#73 Steam Flyer

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:59 PM


If you had a shop that could work sheet metal, you could do a big aluminum canoe.


Or you could just buy one.

http://www.marathonb...ummancanoes.asp


18' is 85 lbs, pretty good starting weight. Even if you triple that by adding rowing & sailing kit, it'd be very light for it's capacity. Beam is only 36" though so to get sail-carrying power you'd need to do something like add hiking seats. An aluminum hull is something you don't need to worry about dragging up & down beaches, bumping stumps, etc etc.

You'd still be sleeping on the beach or in the wet though. I'd envision something a little beamier with a raised deck both for reserve buoyancy and to give a somewhat-dry platform inside. I wonder if the builder has any inclination to bang out a custom job?

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#74 SemiSalt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

I wonder if the builder has any inclination to bang out a custom job?


If they build them the way Grumman built them, probably not, since they used expensive tooling. OTOH, I took a close look at my sister's tin canoe shortly after reading up on metal boats, and I was surprised to see most of the parts were off-the-shelf. It's mostly shaping the panel material that's hard.

I have to say that most add-on sail and leeboard kits look pretty clumsy.

#75 Steam Flyer

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:35 PM


I wonder if the builder has any inclination to bang out a custom job?


If they build them the way Grumman built them, probably not, since they used expensive tooling. OTOH, I took a close look at my sister's tin canoe shortly after reading up on metal boats, and I was surprised to see most of the parts were off-the-shelf. It's mostly shaping the panel material that's hard.

I have to say that most add-on sail and leeboard kits look pretty clumsy.


Yah
I'd do the add-ons at home. It would be lighter, stronger, and fit much much better to mold it in place out of fiberglass. Hey, if you show up at one of these events with a totally off-the-shelf stock boats, you'd get laughed off the beach!

"Get that boat out of here and don't bring it back until you've drilled a few holes in it and made something out of plywood to stick on it!"

Plus with the stock sailing rig, it is slow slow slow and unweatherly. Although another posibility is getting an IC Canoe and doing a hull stretch job on it, so you could carry stuff. Those things would whip up on the Tornado cats under the right conditions, and leave everything else way behind.
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#76 Tom Ray

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:31 PM


I wonder how much that would weigh if built with that heat-shrink Dacron skin?


I don't know if you've ever seen any of the Monfort boats in the flesh, but along with the very light Dacron skin, all the wood structure is also very light. It's easy to imagine a loaded boat (included loaded with water) suffering severe structural damage. Also, sailboats don't necessarily benefit from very light weight without some compensating factor like being a multihull, or having a super-athletic crew.


Never saw one. I also found the 200 lb figure to be a bit optimistic and was thinking (still) of avoiding owning another trailer. You guys are on a roll and very distracting. I need to get back to work if I am ever to be able to afford this kind of fun. It's for rich white guys, I hear. ;)

#77 SemiSalt

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

This is what John Welsford has to say about Walkabout in the context of the design challenge:


> Re Walkabout. Chuck Leinweber has built the stretch version, about 17ft long, and ran it in the T200 this year. He reports that it was dry and comfortable, much more stable than expected, two guys standing on the rail stable! He also reports that even with the relatively modest sail area that it was faster on all points of sail than anything other than the 5ft longer Sea Pearl, he had GPS readings of a sustained 9 miles per hour reaching which is about twice hull speed.
> I'm very keen to make it to the Everglades Challenge and crew for Chuck but its a very long way to travel, and that makes it extremely expensive for us.
>
> For pure speed, AWOL has been clocked at twice that , but is not that good to row.
>
> For most people these adventure events are about getting to the finish line in good order and condition rather than winning, the super fit super skilled guys with fat wallets will always get there first, and they are generally prepared to put up with a level of discomfort and privation that most wont cope with so its back to the "finish in good order and condition" as an aim.
> To me. If you have no chance of winning, then its not practical to make winning your aim, what is much more realistic is to choose a boat and equip it to give youself the best chance of completing the event. The T200 and the Everglades Challenge are all about that philosophy, have no "official" winners, everyone who makes it to the end is a winner and gets the same award.
> I like that.
>
> John Welsford
>

To which I will add, for the sake of doubters, that the T200 is set up to have strong following winds.




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