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#1 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:23 AM

Honestly it's going like that

The Anarchy is going out the window.

Hey Boomer, The pics of Silver are great, I guess you've sucked your way in to be there on launch day.

But honestly Boomer, over kill, yeh you provided a link to your page could of just gone with that.

I just want to see the pic after when these bit come together...

Hey Bob this is Cruising Anarchy, HTFU, what cruising have you done?

Its not Cruising Anarchy let kiss Bobs ass.

PIcs or it didn't happen...

#2 floating dutchman

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:11 AM

Honestly it's going like that

The Anarchy is going out the window.

Hey Boomer, The pics of Silver are great, I guess you've sucked your way in to be there on launch day.

But honestly Boomer, over kill, yeh you provided a link to your page could of just gone with that.

I just want to see the pic after when these bit come together...

Hey Bob this is Cruising Anarchy, HTFU, what cruising have you done?

Its not Cruising Anarchy let kiss Bobs ass.

PIcs or it didn't happen...


So beer tasty today?

#3 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:24 AM

:P

Well it is Friday night, gotta work tomorrow

The old cunts are pissing me off a bit.

Respect and all that shit goes both ways.

#4 Jim in Halifax

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:30 AM

At least you had the decency to start a new thread and not derail some other one. Its Friday AM and I have the day off... :P

#5 boomer

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:03 PM

There was link provided three pages back in the thread, Dale.

Enjoy that beer and play safe, or safe enough so no one get's hurt or seriously FU'd.

USA perhaps you should get a barf bag if your feeling like a good puke.

#6 Gatekeeper

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:15 PM

As an old friend used to say "the same door that got you in here will get you out"....find it and use it.

#7 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

I went to Boomer's link and was a bit overwhelmed by the number and size of the images. I'm glad to see them sprinkled in the thread, and have already voted for them to be a bit smaller.

usa, the bow of that boat you drew looks old fashioned and a bit boring. It's way better than anything I have ever drawn, or ever will draw, since I can't draw.

I agree with the guy in the other thread who pointed out that anyone who has the time and equipment to screw around on a sailing forum is financially better off than most humans have ever been, and with the ones who pointed out that wealth is only one measure of how well off you are, and not all that important of a measure in terms of how happy you will be.

#8 boomer

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:27 PM

and with the ones who pointed out that wealth is only one measure of how well off you are, and not all that important of a measure in terms of how happy you will be.


+237,854,731

Precisely

#9 SailRacer

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:17 PM

Someone wrote Friday and I see nothing.

Get to work!

#10 bmiller

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:26 PM

Anytime someone bitches about wealth this comes to mind:
http://www.globalrichlist.com/

#11 austin1972

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:51 PM

Fer fucks sake. Now we're all rich white sycophants of Bob.
Since I'm a lower middle class guy whose current boat is a Sunfish, part native American and bitched Bob out during one of the WLYDO builds, I guess I should grab my coat.

Nah.

#12 Soņadora

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:29 PM

Note to self:

never, ever, ever, ever, ever become a yacht designer.

but first, I need to grow up.

#13 Ishmael

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:49 PM

What the hell is a peolpe?

#14 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:03 PM

What the hell is a peolpe?

A kind of elk.

#15 Ishmael

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:12 PM


What the hell is a peolpe?

A kind of elk.


So it's just rich white Elk that Dale is bitching about? No Shriners, no Loyal Order of Moose, no Kiwanians? That's not very inclusive.

#16 Gatekeeper

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

Frankly I find this thread, starting with the title, insulting...I am white, I am no where approaching rich (from a monetary standpoint) and I'm not about to apologize for my friendship with others here.

So in a nutshell...Dale and USA7606 can just fuck off.

#17 Tucky

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:32 PM

The weird part about this internet world is the way someone will come into a room, insult everyone by saying "you are the kind of people that disgust me", but won't leave, and actually want to hang around and be part of the conversation, even if their part in the conversation is just to keep shouting "you're an asshole".

This can't be taught, can't be learned, they just come to it naturally and somehow find it fun. Builds their self esteem?

Now where is that wanker expression when I need it?

#18 Gatekeeper

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:39 PM

....and the proper spelling is "white P-E-O-P-L-E".

Always nice to be chastised by a moron.

#19 Steam Flyer

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:47 PM

Honestly it's going like that

The Anarchy is going out the window.

...


Too bad
If you don't like it, then go fuck yourself
The great thing about ANARCHY is that it confers total freedom
The terrible thing about ANARCHY is that not even anarchy can free you from yourself!


Hey Bob this is Cruising Anarchy, HTFU, what cruising have you done?

...


No, what cruising have YOU done, first.

FB- Doug

#20 austin1972

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

So it's just rich white Elk that Dale is bitching about? No Shriners, no Loyal Order of Moose, no Kiwanians? That's not very inclusive.


I belong to the Moose, mostly for the Christmas party. 2 Tom & Jerry's = cab ride home.

#21 Ishmael

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

This thread needs tits.

Posted Image

#22 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:53 PM

I hate it when SA/PA mentality comes in here.
I like having CA as a civilized refuge when I am not in the mood for this kind of crap.

#23 floating dutchman

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

Maybe we should talk to the mods and see if we can get Face book Anarcy going?

#24 olaf hart

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:12 PM

Who let the Riff Raff in?

#25 Salazar

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

What the hell is a peolpe?




#26 Cavelamb

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:04 PM

Frankly I find this thread, starting with the title, insulting...I am white, I am no where approaching rich (from a monetary standpoint) and I'm not about to apologize for my friendship with others here.

So in a nutshell...Dale and USA7606 can just fuck off.


It's nothing.

He's just mouthing what he thinks he's hearing on the popular news.

It has become evil to have wealth.
Because it obviously came from the sweaty brows of poor people.
And even if it didn't, why are you sharing with the poor?

I (re)read Atlas Shrugged this summer. (I was that bored with my boat on the hard!)
It's lousy literature, but scary accurate as to the political climate right now.

I suspect it's going to get a lot worse (and not get better).

The part that really blows my mind is that we are relying on the very same people
who sold the seed corn to save our bacon.

Federal Politicians.

#27 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

I hate it when SA/PA mentality comes in here.
I like having CA as a civilized refuge when I am not in the mood for this kind of crap.


Sorry 'bout the elk reference. ;)

#28 olaf hart

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:40 PM

I'm disappointed, I thought this thread was all about me.

But I read the title again and it's really about rich white peolpe, or rich white dyslexic people.

A hole, what's the deal with your spell check?

My IPad wont even let me spell peolpe .

#29 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:04 PM

Your ipad hates elk. Might be a vegan.

#30 Trickypig

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:22 PM

I hate it when SA/PA mentality comes in here.
I like having CA as a civilized refuge when I am not in the mood for this kind of crap.


True that.

Hey Dale, you can only fit so many chips on your shoulders.

#31 Cruisin Loser

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:15 AM

I hate it when SA/PA mentality comes in here.
I like having CA as a civilized refuge when I am not in the mood for this kind of crap.

+1

The primary difference between CA and the rest of this site, is that most (but by no means all) of us are cruising boat OWNERS. This differentiates us from dinghy owners and crews.

Not surprisingly, since cruising boats are frequently expensive indulgences, there are some relatively prosperous folks here. Whether they rise to the level of rich depends on your definition of rich.

But some of the better off folks here are also have the most sea miles, technical knowledge, and experience, and are some of the best sources for info, and share the benefits of their knowledge freely and without a trace of arrogance. Living 2000 miles from my boat, this is a place of respite for me, where I can come and chat with sailors, as I don't have a yacht club I can bop down to for a drink.I feel like I have friends here, as evidenced during my brother's recent health crisis. I like this place, have found wonderful crew here, and don't like it much when someone tries to upset its equilibrium.

So without due respect Dale and usa7606, fuck off.

#32 SpongeDeckSquareFoil

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:48 AM


Honestly it's going like that

The Anarchy is going out the window.

Hey Boomer, The pics of Silver are great, I guess you've sucked your way in to be there on launch day.

But honestly Boomer, over kill, yeh you provided a link to your page could of just gone with that.

I just want to see the pic after when these bit come together...

Hey Bob this is Cruising Anarchy, HTFU, what cruising have you done?

Its not Cruising Anarchy let kiss Bobs ass.

PIcs or it didn't happen...

Dale, even though you appear to be a bit loaded you hit the nail on the head! Perhaps the motto should be changed from HTFU to SUTB(suck up to bob). It makes you want to puke sometimes.


There's lots of wealthy folks on this site, goes with the territory. I haven't noticed anyone boast or brag about it, but some thread drifts do make it more obvious. Still doesn't matter. But yes, USAdude, you are correct, kdh has a manner of posting things that make you stop and say “did he really just post that”. Sort of like that very wealthy politician who proclaimed (paraphrase here, not sure of exact wording) “...I'm a big NASCAR fan. I know several owners”. But kdh is even more blunt or obtuse. That's just his way, though. You learn to find it humorous after a while.

And the Sliver thread is not really a SUTB thread, it's more of a “suck up to everyone and everything” thread.
Everyone involved is a genius, the ultimate pleasure to work with, the ultimate craftsman, the ultimate artist, superbly skilled, superbly talented, someone who I am better for having met, unequaled, an extraordinary cook, etc., etc. Even the act of destroying the deck mold showed the impeccable skills of the gifted craftsmen.

And it's not just a nice boat, it's a dream, breathtaking, wonderful, magnificent, unbelievable, etc., etc.
And, for the chance to view the thread, the viewers are honored, blessed, grateful, so thankful for this opportunity, etc., etc.
The constant barrage of accolades and superlatives has made that thread so cloying that at times it's unreadable. It's just one fat black chick from being an Oprah fest.






No offense to fat black chicks.

#33 oregonarchist

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:48 AM

The part that really blows my mind is that we are relying on the very same people
who sold the seed corn to save our bacon.

Federal Politicians.


Pigs will eat people. If our bacon is at risk of starving for lack of corn, we could just feed the politicians to them...

I really don't want to run out of bacon.

#34 Silverbullet

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:52 AM


The part that really blows my mind is that we are relying on the very same people
who sold the seed corn to save our bacon.

Federal Politicians.


Pigs will eat people. If our bacon is at risk of starving for lack of corn, we could just feed the politicians to them...

I really don't want to run out of bacon.


Rich people have these installed next to their 60" Wolf ranges.
Posted Image

#35 floating dutchman

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:55 AM

....and the proper spelling is "white P-E-O-P-L-E".

Always nice to be chastised by a moron.


You don't have to be a moron to make a typo.

I've had my fair share of crap about my spelling here. Dammit I know my spelling is crap, that doesn't make me an idiot just a bad speller. I've always had trouble with the written language, it's something I'm just not good at, get over it. I have.

Thinking you are in some way superior because you are a better speller or you always use a spell checker is just plain wrong.

#36 Gatekeeper

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:54 AM

I'm a terrible speller...I think in all my posts that's the first time I have ever mentioned spelling except to make fun of myself...but he just pissed me off so much I was ready to throw any crap back at him.

#37 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:01 AM

Guess I was a bit pissed off as well as being pissed.

But some interesting views above...

And I'm more than zero :lol:

#38 Paps

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:55 AM

Might as well have a thread to bitch in.

The mutual backslapping does get tedious at times and the private club mentality does seem to have taken over. It might be the more refined cruising version but it is still anarchy. Then again I'm not a boat owner so what would I know. :rolleyes:

#39 hobot

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:35 AM

I own a craptastic Ericson 27, sounds as if my boundary has been relegated back to GA.


(if it's ok I'll just peek through the knotholes in the fence boards from time to time).

#40 WHL

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:51 AM

I'm sick of listening to the whiners talking about some of the people here. I used to own a boat, I don't now. I was comfortable financially, I'm not now. Life happens. Am I enriched in spirit by friendships formed with a number of the decent people here? Yes.

I have been fortunate to meet, sail, break bread, play music, with some of the "rich" people on this site. You coiuldn't meet a more intelligent, genuinely well meaning group that have done well. Good for them for succeeding.

Some a-hole above has been on KDH's case. I had the good fortune to meet a number of our East Coast CA contributors last summer: Mung, Curm and his better half, KDH and his father in-law, Sailman and fun family, Anomaly and daughter, and BJ Porter and family at a raft up at Dutch Harbor. It was enlightening in many ways and a day of good food, thought provoking conversaton about a wide spectrum of topics, laughter and company. Some of us met again later at Cuttyhunk and had more laughs, whacky dinghy races, and a lobster dinner ashore. It was hosted by KDH, not because he's rich, but because he's a decent and fun guy who simply felt like it.

Yes some of it in these topics can come across as a bit fawning, but you know what, it's probably out of a genuine enthusiasm and pleasure seeing what successful people have shared here, rather than kissing arse to gain something.

Those bitching here about people that have contributed a lot in this forum in many ways should simply shut it. You don't have a clue who the people are that you're trashing. Grow up.

#41 rattus32

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:05 AM


The part that really blows my mind is that we are relying on the very same people
who sold the seed corn to save our bacon.

Federal Politicians.


Pigs will eat people. If our bacon is at risk of starving for lack of corn, we could just feed the politicians to them...

I really don't want to run out of bacon.


Crack is to drugs what bacon is to food.

#42 Ishmael

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:21 AM


The part that really blows my mind is that we are relying on the very same people
who sold the seed corn to save our bacon.

Federal Politicians.


Pigs will eat people. If our bacon is at risk of starving for lack of corn, we could just feed the politicians to them...

I really don't want to run out of bacon.


I don't think we should wait until the specter of a bacon shortage looms, we should feed the politicians to them starting right now.
We could shorten the entire process and just start eating politicians ourselves, but I suspect they would all have a fecal tinge to the meat.

#43 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:21 AM

Everybody is off on a tangent, or sheer.

The title 'Rich white elk'

is just an attention getter, according to one link above I'm actually a 'Rich white cunt'. only problem is, is that cunts are useful.

Yeh I throw shit, and take shit, no problem generally, but hey sometimes. Zero, seriously. :D

For fuck's sake, it a Cathedral or what every it was :lol: :P

#44 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:36 AM


I hate it when SA/PA mentality comes in here.
I like having CA as a civilized refuge when I am not in the mood for this kind of crap.


True that.

Hey Dale, you can only fit so many chips on your shoulders.


Chips, you want CHIPS



Posted Image

#45 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:44 AM

I'm sick of listening to the whiners talking about some of the people here. I used to own a boat, I don't now. I was comfortable financially, I'm not now. Life happens. Am I enriched in spirit by friendships formed with a number of the decent people here? Yes.

I have been fortunate to meet, sail, break bread, play music, with some of the "rich" people on this site. You coiuldn't meet a more intelligent, genuinely well meaning group that have done well. Good for them for succeeding.

Some a-hole above has been on KDH's case. I had the good fortune to meet a number of our East Coast CA contributors last summer: Mung, Curm and his better half, KDH and his father in-law, Sailman and fun family, Anomaly and daughter, and BJ Porter and family at a raft up at Dutch Harbor. It was enlightening in many ways and a day of good food, thought provoking conversaton about a wide spectrum of topics, laughter and company. Some of us met again later at Cuttyhunk and had more laughs, whacky dinghy races, and a lobster dinner ashore. It was hosted by KDH, not because he's rich, but because he's a decent and fun guy who simply felt like it.

Yes some of it in these topics can come across as a bit fawning, but you know what, it's probably out of a genuine enthusiasm and pleasure seeing what successful people have shared here, rather than kissing arse to gain something.

Those bitching here about people that have contributed a lot in this forum in many ways should simply shut it. You don't have a clue who the people are that you're trashing. Grow up.


You know the only thing I got out of this post, apart from you had a good time, which is cool, was from your interest list...

Gunkholing, I like that term. But the 'in classic day sailors' is a bit gay NTTIAWWT

#46 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

WHL, my kids (who lurk here) pointed out to me a few years ago that when you're having an argument with an idiot, there's more than one idiot involved.

While generally true on this interweb thing, that people enjoy making all sorts of inane and ugly comments, it seems to be particularly true here in all the crack and crevices of this site. It is made much much worse by the bizarre effects of anonymity on some people's ability to restrain themselves. The section of Lord of the Flys where the children are wearing masks is a wonderful view of what anonymity does to people. As a result, after some relatively ugly arguments with a number of anonymous cowards here, I've generally decided not to bother. It simply isn't worth the time to answer the idiotic posts.

No need to defend something that obviously doesn't need defending - if people don't like what happens in CA then why are they hang around reading it? A need for attention? Probably. Once someone shows up with the courage to make a public criticism under their own name, you might consider a defense. Until then, I'd suggest having another beer with a few or our rich CA friends and going sailing. That's on my calendar for tomorrow.

I don't mean to single you out, as many around here have bothered to point out the stupidity of Dale's posts. But yours was well written, accurate, and describes exactly my own interaction with CA folks has been. I've hosted some of them in my home, sailed with many and found them to be really decent folks - generally. Some like Dale, not so much.

#47 kdh

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:36 PM

Thanks for the regret, 7606. "Blunt and obtuse" is perfectly fair. I like being blunt.

But please think about it. I was being absolutely sincere. My relationship with my mother has suffered because of my wealth. Which would you choose, a good relationship with your mother or unusual wealth? I can't choose, but the answer is not at all clear to me.

#48 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:53 PM

I must have really missed something. We have as many what is the cheapest way to replace a 1 foot piece of hose and do I really need to pay $1.95 for it threads as OMFG I have so much money I use engine blocks cast out of solid gold threads.

#49 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:01 PM

YES - But not just the "I have more money" aspect because I am sure I don't*. It is IMHO *very* easy to trash talk boats, designers, gear, and people when you are CREW. No matter how much or little you have, if it isn't your cash on the line it is a different world. Pretty much every boat owner has budgeted X for a problem and had the sinking feeling of seeing the estimate start to look like 10X or worse :o The number of zeros after the X may vary, but the feeling is the same.




I hate it when SA/PA mentality comes in here.
I like having CA as a civilized refuge when I am not in the mood for this kind of crap.



The primary difference between CA and the rest of this site, is that most (but by no means all) of us are cruising boat OWNERS. This differentiates us from dinghy owners and crews.

............................



#50 sculpin

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:18 PM

Zeyang has one of the best threads going in CA, I don't think he is rich. I'm pretty sure I'm not rich... many folks here are not rich.

And in any case, the few really rich people I know are some of the nicest folks around. Heck, in the summer my mooring broke and the boat got away. It was rescued by a rich guy, a power boater even, who could very easily have taken the "well, if I ignore this for a few minutes it becomes someone else's problem" attitude, but did not. And amazingly gracious when I went around to thank him.

As for Bob - not sure there is an entry criteria for this forum but I'm sure Bob has been in, on, and sailing more boats than you. And as the designer of a boat I used to own (an off the shelf one, not a custom - remember, I'm not rich!) it is pretty cool to me to be able to talk with him. But that doesn't make him a god and I don't see that attitude much 'round here.

Should there be a forum for "rich and/or famous Cruising Anarchy"???

So Dale and 7606: fuck off.

#51 Steam Flyer

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:00 PM

I must have really missed something. We have as many what is the cheapest way to replace a 1 foot piece of hose and do I really need to pay $1.95 for it threads as OMFG I have so much money I use engine blocks cast out of solid gold threads.


I don't think you missed anything. One of the cool things about sailing is that the ocean & the wind don't care how much money you have.

My dog thinks I'm rich because I have a really nice bed and 20 lbs of dog food in the closet. My mother thinks I am poor because I haven't bought her a new car in a long time. To be alive is to have issues. I'm glad to be here!

FB- Doug

#52 Anomaly2

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:04 PM

I think she is one very rich sailor....

http://speedwelladve...om/blog/?cat=54

#53 kdh

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

A2, beautiful. I'm sure you appreciate that financial wealth should not be confused with being rich.

Posted Image

#54 Anomaly2

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:34 PM

financial wealth should not be confused with being rich.


Yes, precisely why I posted that link. :)
Oh, and also just because I found her blog inspiring (to say the least) about just cruising...

#55 Estar

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

There was a rule back in the old compuserve sailing forum days that there should not be 'meta discussions' - that is the discussion should be directly about sailing and not a discussion about the discussion or about the people having the discussion. I always thought that was a very useful and productive rule. You were also required to use your real name (the name on your credit card where the compuserve bill was charged). That also seemed very useful.

But this is Anarchy and neither of those rule are around.

I am a bit of a regular but still 'an outsider' on CA. From that perspective I will comment make two comments.

First there is a clique here that is pretty damn unfriendly to opposing perspectives, and people who challenge the local sacred cows, and gangs up on outsiders expressing those perspectives. That's a pretty human trait, happens in every local bar in the world. But because its common does not make it attractive or intellectually useful or further the discussion.

Second, there are a lot of people hurting in America (and Europe for that matter) right now. Some of them on this site trying to get their sailing fix when they can't really much afford to actually do it any longer. I think showing some empathy for those people and these economic times shows social consciousness and throwing wealth unnecessarily in their faces shows a lack of class. That lack of class is also a quite common human trait. People with 'new money' tend to enjoy flaunting it. While those who have had money for a while understand that creates completely unnecessary resentment and it's better for society to show more 'class' and tone it down.

#56 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:37 PM

I am not sure which sacred cows get challenged??????
We had a great discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of center cockpit boats that included owners of said boats, delivery skippers, and even a designer of said boats. This included real world examples of a lot of different boats in various conditions. You couldn't pay $100 and buy a book or magazine with better info than that.

I needed a new dinghy in a bad way this year and had no cash to go buy a new one that would suit my needs. It didn't take too long after posting on here about what to buy before someone set me up with a great boat I could afford. This place is GREAT for finding low cost ways to do things if that is what you need. I can't recall too many people gloating over hordes of cash and laughing at poor sailors. YMMV - I don't read every single thread on here ;)

#57 Soņadora

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

Clique? I don't know about that. I mean, yeah, those other guys can just fuck off, but I don't know about cliques.

*snerk

I'm on one forum (actually a mailing list) where the mods are seriously anal about staying on the subject. As soon as the topic starts drifting, they get all hurty and start closing topics or deleting posts. Unless, of course, they want to report on the sinking of HMS Bounty 3 weeks after it happened like it's breaking news. Lame.

While I truly do find that list useful, the sterile nature of it keeps me away unless I really need some specific info.

It's been said a million times, but CA is more like a bar, but a bar where the patrons are EXTREMELY knowledgable about sailing. I don't know about cliques, really. Most newbs are welcomed right off the bat. Sure, the 'traditional welcome' might make some folks uncomfortable, but that's too bad. There's a lot of uncomfortable stuff when you talk sailing, so HTFU. Some of the folks who have been here a long time might have a bit of ass-holiness, but nothing unusual there. And frankly, it seems that some of the newer (by that I mean newer than me...guys like Dale) are more the assholes.

Not to mention, for the 'regulars' (sorry Estar, I'm going to include you as a 'regular' ;) we're a little gun-shy thanks to HWSRN and his plethora of sock puppets. So we may be a bit jaded at times.

But cliques? Nah. At least, I don't see it anyway. No one is sacred. I mean, look at our good friend Gatekeeper. He whined about a Hunter 23/24/22 whatever parked on his street and you would have thought he was thrown into a pit of rabid dogs.

#58 kdh

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

The important thing is not to criticize others. As the old saying goes, "Never judge a man until you've sailed a mile in his Hinckley." :unsure:

#59 sculpin

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:24 PM

The important thing is not to criticize others. As the old saying goes, "Never judge a man until you've sailed a mile in his Hinckley." :unsure:

Alright, now we are talking! I'm ready to do some judging! Where do I show up to sail that Hinckley????

#60 kdh

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:35 PM


The important thing is not to criticize others. As the old saying goes, "Never judge a man until you've sailed a mile in his Hinckley." :unsure:

Alright, now we are talking! I'm ready to do some judging! Where do I show up to sail that Hinckley????


Any time. Really. Same goes for anyone else around here

Edit: Just figured out where 44N 63W is. Great part of the world. I might ask for some reciprocation.

#61 floating dutchman

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:27 PM

Fuck this shit.

Sun is out and I'm going for a sail. Beers on Haulashore Island at three if anyone is interested.

My boat is the one that looks like someone who lives under a bridge owns it.
It's also the one with the two screaming kids and a wife who doesn't want to be there, I have to take her because she hates being left at home without the car.
I'll be the one carting Kids, wife and beer on my shoulders to Haulashore Island because I cannot afford air for the dingy either.

#62 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

I'll be the one carting Kids, wife and beer on my shoulders to Haulashore Island because I cannot afford air for the dingy either.


how much does it cost ?

#63 Ishmael

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:55 PM


I'll be the one carting Kids, wife and beer on my shoulders to Haulashore Island because I cannot afford air for the dingy either.


how much does it cost ?


If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

#64 Paps

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

The important thing is not to criticize others. As the old saying goes, "Never judge a man until you've sailed a mile in his Hinckley." :unsure:


Or driven 100 miles and hour in his Ferrari!! :D

#65 Silverbullet

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

To be alive is to have issues. I'm glad to be here!

FB- Doug


+1

#66 floating dutchman

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:02 PM



I'll be the one carting Kids, wife and beer on my shoulders to Haulashore Island because I cannot afford air for the dingy either.


how much does it cost ?


If you have to ask, you can't afford it.


Yea, but I got a plan: If I get some decent breaze I'm going to take some air from the sails, I just hope some smug bugger doesn't sail on top of me and steal my air, I think that rowing a dink full of dirty air would be just difficult to row.

#67 Tom Ray

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:11 PM

A2, beautiful. I'm sure you appreciate that financial wealth should not be confused with being rich.

Posted Image

It does look pretty cool and sounds good in theory but a whole bunch of different sheet lines for each batten seems like a lot of work for little gain.

But then, I'm a catboat jib trimmer, so what do I know about a lot of work? ;)

#68 boomer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:06 AM


To be alive is to have issues. I'm glad to be here!

FB- Doug


+1


+ 7,084,012,684 at this moment in time http://www.worldomet...rld-population/

Posted Image

#69 gusmus

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:40 AM

Honestly it's going like that

The Anarchy is going out the window.

Hey Boomer, The pics of Silver are great, I guess you've sucked your way in to be there on launch day.

But honestly Boomer, over kill, yeh you provided a link to your page could of just gone with that.

I just want to see the pic after when these bit come together...

Hey Bob this is Cruising Anarchy, HTFU, what cruising have you done?

Its not Cruising Anarchy let kiss Bobs ass.

PIcs or it didn't happen...

Actually Dug is right (original post #1). I have every respect for Bob and his work but this is after all "Cruising Anarchy". Not Wlydo. nor the Perry forum and we must remember and respect that. I've never designed a boat apart from within my head but I know what a good ocean going boat is by having sailed long distances on many. Bob knows what a good ocean going boat looks like on paper and what the design should be, but I can refine it by knowing what a good cruiser is in the shit and not by simply knowing what looks like a few pretty lines on a draft board. There is a big difference and that's where the respect comes in. I know that Bob knows a lot more than me. But I suspect that Bob knows that I know a fuck of a lot more than him when it comes down to playing silly buggers in open ocean. His designs are great and have been proved as such,,, but as a user,, I can make them better, and so can anyone with open ocean experience. Don't be dogged by the designer, The end user is the one to ask and be listened to..
There. I've said it and gotten it of my chest and I feel better now

#70 boomer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:52 AM

I reread your post a couple times...I'm not quite sure what you were getting off your chest, but if it makes you feel better, that's quite alright.

I will say that while there are certain open ocean voyages that can be treacherous and just downright nasty, I certainly wouldn't discount the inland waters of the Puget Sound, Straits of Juan de Fuca, or the inland waters to the north in Canada or Alsaka as always particularly pleasant.

Lot of seafaring men lived around these parts for a long time. More then a few of them were professional seamen serving on lumber schooners, square riggers, windjammers and what have you. More then a few with families here, decided to work our local waters both under sail and under power, from hauling passengers to freight on our inland waters, either locally or from here to Canada or Alaska.

Many of them returning to the seafaring life on the oceans, because they got tired of getting beat up by current or shoal water induced chop, rip tide chop, opposing chop and seas due to the convergent zone, and just plan nasty beat you up on the water conditions. I've spoken with old timers, most of whom have passed on now, who confirmed this, saying they found life on ocean passages far more comfortable and that's why they returned to the seafaring life, rather then working our local waters from here to Alaska.

After spending my life working the local waters as well as in Alaska, I'll tell you it's not always a piece of cake. BTW... Manson the company I worked for has lost tugs and derrick barges locally which foundered or capsized, and on the Hood Canal, as well as the Strait of Juan de Fuca.I've also watched experienced fishermen capsize a 36' and 42' purse seiners on the Puget Sound in storm conditions...so I wouldn't discount the waters around here at all.

I'll also say Bob has quite a bit of experience sailing various designs in a wide range of conditions....and not always pleasant weather.

That experience I'm quite sure comes into play, when he's working on a new project...at the same time, I'd say he's quite open minded to some suggestions, but quite firm in his knowledge and experience on what is , or is not up to his standards...and what will or will not work in a proper way.

#71 gusmus

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:20 AM

I'm not quite sure what you were getting off your chest, but if it makes you feel better, that's quite alright.

I will say that while there are certain open ocean voyages that can be treacherous and just downright nasty, I certainly wouldn't discount the inland waters of the Puget Sound, Straits of Juan de Fuca, or the inland waters to the north in Canada or Alsaka as always particularly pleasant.

Lot of seafaring men lived around these parts for a long time. More then a few of them were professional seamen serving on lumber schooners, square riggers, windjammers and what have you. More then a few with families here, decided to work our local waters both under sail and under power, from hauling passengers to freight on our inland waters, either locally or from here to Canada or Alaska.

Many of them returning to the seafaring life on the oceans, because they got tired of getting beat up by current or shoal water induced chop, rip tide chop, opposing chop and seas due to the convergent zone, and just plan nasty beat you up on the water conditions. I've spoken with old timers, most of whom have passed on now, who confirmed this, saying they found life on ocean passages far more comfortable and that's why they returned to the seafaring life, rather then working our local waters from here to Alaska.

After spending my life working the local waters as well as in Alaska, I'll tell you it's not always a piece of cake. BTW... Manson the company I worked for has lost tugs and derrick barges locally which foundered or capsized, and on the Hood Canal, as well as the Strait of Juan de Fuca....so I wouldn't discount the waters around here at all.

No, No, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that any waters are safe. Living on those waters is one part of it. Sailing on them is another. I was simply saying that maybe Jeremy Rodgers designed the perfect ocean cruiser in the Contessa 26 but untill someone like B Perry actually crosses an ocean in one then they can't really improve on the design unless on paper. I just feel so..... ostracised on here because the majority (including the design gurus) seem to have sailing experience defined to catching codfish on a saturday morning and feeding the friggin cat on a sunday. I don't want nor am interested in that. If they are gurus then "Guru" us in some manner. I answered a thread asking for information on a certain type of obscure rig and gave information pertinent to the subject.. A certain designer answered me in an insolent and sarcastic manner which, if I had been standing near him and heard his reply to me,,, I would have punched his fucking lights out. That's for you Mr Perry. This forum is called "Cruising Anarchy". If you wish it to be called "Perry Anarchy" then ask Scott for a sponsor, If not, STFU and leave us in peace as we were. We all appreciate your input on this small part of the overall SA forum. BUT ,,, We don't need a fucking CEO. Especially not a larger than thou CEO. You keep designing your boats,,, and we'll criticise them.

#72 boomer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:44 AM

I've been given a wake up call by him as well, so have many others. Yes he can be opinionated and not particularly gentle in all his answers, but it's not usually done in a malicious way. So he might have times where he's been cranky, but he usually expresses later in his own way, an apology or what brought about his stance.

I really don't think Bob needs to do any more sailing then he already has done, to improve his ability to design a sailboat with good seagoing qualities.

I'll say it again, since I added it after editing the above post. Bob has quite a bit of experience sailing various designs in a wide range of conditions....and not always pleasant weather.

That experience I'm quite sure comes into play, when he's working on a new project...at the same time, I'd say he's quite open minded to some suggestions, but quite firm in his knowledge and experience on what is , or is not up to his standards...and what will or will not work in a proper way.

My only hope is that you can get beyond feeling ostracized, and only wish the best for you.

#73 Silverbullet

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:54 AM

Overwhelming consensus is dangerous. Dissent is good.

#74 gusmus

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:08 AM

I've been given a wake up call by him as well, so have many others. Yes he can be opinionated and not particularly gentle in all his answers, but it's not usually done in a malicious way. So he might have times where he's been cranky, but he usually expresses later in his own way, an apology or what brought about his stance.

I really don't think Bob needs to do any more sailing then he already has done, to improve his ability to design a sailboat with good seagoing qualities.

I'll say it again, since I added it after editing the above post. Bob has quite a bit of experience sailing various designs in a wide range of conditions....and not always pleasant weather.

That experience I'm quite sure comes into play, when he's working on a new project...at the same time, I'd say he's quite open minded to some suggestions, but quite firm in his knowledge and experience on what is , or is not up to his standards...and what will or will not work in a proper way.

My only hope is that you can get beyond feeling ostracized, and only wish the best for you.

Thank you. That was a nice and educated reply and I appreciate it. I really have nothing against Bob apart from the fact that the forum has become BOB. I think he is a wonderfull designer and a quite approachable guy on here with much knowledge to impart to us dumbfucks.. But sometimes the dumbfucks know a little and don't need to be told how to make the perfect fuck-up. And,, when the dumbfucks actually impart a bit of knowledge,, we don't really want to be put down for imparting it. I'll go back to my book now and await Bobs call.

#75 Ishmael

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:09 AM

Eat the rich!

Edit: I posted this before Gusmus posted his reply, which I thought was pretty reasonable. I don't think the forum has become BOB, although there are a few threads devoted to him/his work. I'm OK with that, I don't have to read stuff I don't enjoy.
A lot of us do enjoy the cameraderie of the WLYDO and other granfalloons that surface here. There's a lot to be learned and taught. Unlax.

#76 gusmus

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:15 AM

Eat the rich!

You spelled it wrong... "Bitch" not rich.

#77 Paps

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:16 AM

I dont think it needs to get personal, its not about any one person. The general tone of the forum has changed in the last 12 months and not everyone thinks for the better.

It it not the open, friendly environment it once was and "we're gun shy because" is wearing thin. More than one member has confessed to not feeling comfortable here due to some elitism. That very example given was repeated in this thread ie Its a forum for boat owners. Interestingly the person who said it is not the least bit elitist as far as I can tell so there you go.

Money doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it there are rich qunts poor qunts and in between qunts.

I think its marvelous to have people like Bob here to bounce ideas off and share their passion. What is not marvelous is having a gang descend on you for sharing an opinion contrary to his. Bobs of Aussi stock and can take care of himself, he doesn't need a cheer squad, especially one with a hair trigger.

Its not terminal.

#78 Paps

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:23 AM

Maybe a few of us need to revisit what HTFU really means.

#79 gusmus

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:35 AM

Maybe a few of us need to revisit what HTFU really means.

Paps. I think you are 100% correct. It just depends on who you want to HTFU. I'm of the opinion that I know what I want. It's the fuckers who are trying to sell me something who don't know what I want and I can't convince them that my qualifications are higher than theirs because it's my friggin money they want to spend. What it really comes down to is that if I want a square box with a point on the end then that is what I want and what I am willing to pay for with no changes to the original plan. If I want a beautiful machine with classic lines and an open60 bottom to it then I expect the same service.. I'm not fussy. But. I demand respect. no matter what box I want, especially on semi-anonymous forums and from the desks of semi-anonymous naval architects. As an example,, google just how many swan designs were actually drawn by S&S. How many Perries have been drawn by Perry without assistence? I don't know and I'm not interested, But Herechoff didn't draw his own lines,,, only the successfull ones.

#80 oregonarchist

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:58 AM

I answered a thread asking for information on a certain type of obscure rig and gave information pertinent to the subject.. A certain designer answered me in an insolent and sarcastic manner which, if I had been standing near him and heard his reply to me,,, I would have punched his fucking lights out. That's for you Mr Perry.


Wow, Mr, Gus; you're a real tough guy. That's impressive as all heck, there, that "punch his fucking lights out" bit.

If you had been standing next to Bob when he said that, I'm betting you would have heard him laugh -- and the only sarcasm in that laugh would have been in the fact that no one,in my experience, in the WLYDO "office" takes themselves nearly as seriously as you do. As far as I know Bob, he wasn't being all "insolent and sarcastic" to you; on the contrary, in his own smart-ass way, he was saying "Thank you" for a substantive contribution. Sorry you missed it and got your panties all in a wad.

I remember that exchange, and went back and looked at before posting this reply -- you need a serious dose of HTFU, dude. And, maybe a little more time around Bob and the rest this forum. He thanked you and welcomed you to the group of contributing folk, near as I could tell, and then made a joke about the whole "office" thing. Gate chimed in. Not to be part of your little rite of righteous indignation pity party, but just to make a fucking joke. Even if he had intended to be sarcastic, I think probably everyone in CA has had some sarcasm-inflected shit flicked at them at least once. I know I have. It's just a bit of the local charm. Get the heck over yourself.

If you want to continue with the bar metaphor, then consider that you walked into a bar where you haven't spent much time, pitched your 2 cents into a conversation that was going on (note -- a very good 2 cents; maybe even a nickel's worth) and one of the locals acknowledged and thanked you, and offered you a seat. He did so the way folks in this particular bar sometimes do; with a bit of a smart-ass tone. If you had been coming around the bar long enough, you'd know there was very much no harm intended.

Now, stop your whining and posturing and let's have a beer. I'd specify which particular kind of beer I prefer, but last time I did that I got called an elitist and a snob and a whole shitfight erupted around it.

#81 boomer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:58 AM

Maybe a few of us need to revisit what HTFU really means.


So HTFU already Paps.... :D

#82 gusmus

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:17 AM


I answered a thread asking for information on a certain type of obscure rig and gave information pertinent to the subject.. A certain designer answered me in an insolent and sarcastic manner which, if I had been standing near him and heard his reply to me,,, I would have punched his fucking lights out. That's for you Mr Perry.


Wow, Mr, Gus; you're a real tough guy. That's impressive as all heck, there, that "punch his fucking lights out" bit.

If you had been standing next to Bob when he said that, I'm betting you would have heard him laugh -- and the only sarcasm in that laugh would have been in the fact that no one,in my experience, in the WLYDO "office" takes themselves nearly as seriously as you do. As far as I know Bob, he wasn't being all "insolent and sarcastic" to you; on the contrary, in his own smart-ass way, he was saying "Thank you" for a substantive contribution. Sorry you missed it and got your panties all in a wad.

I remember that exchange, and went back and looked at before posting this reply -- you need a serious dose of HTFU, dude. And, maybe a little more time around Bob and the rest this forum. He thanked you and welcomed you to the group of contributing folk, near as I could tell, and then made a joke about the whole "office" thing. Gate chimed in. Not to be part of your little rite of righteous indignation pity party, but just to make a fucking joke. Even if he had intended to be sarcastic, I think probably everyone in CA has had some sarcasm-inflected shit flicked at them at least once. I know I have. It's just a bit of the local charm. Get the heck over yourself.

If you want to continue with the bar metaphor, then consider that you walked into a bar where you haven't spent much time, pitched your 2 cents into a conversation that was going on (note -- a very good 2 cents; maybe even a nickel's worth) and one of the locals acknowledged and thanked you, and offered you a seat. He did so the way folks in this particular bar sometimes do; with a bit of a smart-ass tone. If you had been coming around the bar long enough, you'd know there was very much no harm intended.

Now, stop your whining and posturing and let's have a beer. I'd specify which particular kind of beer I prefer, but last time I did that I got called an elitist and a snob and a whole shitfight erupted around it.

Bollocks
I don't need apologist posts on behalf of anonymous posters. Who the fuck do you think I am? An idiot who happened to stumble apon your little clique?. look at my posts for christs sake. I used to write for this rag. I even consulted Bob over possible cheats going on in the AC. Go back to being an idiot and dream of the perfect world... you won't find it here. HTFU. try it first and tell me if your balls are big enough to clang louder than Big Ben.
And now you may start toasting the pop-corn

#83 gusmus

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:44 AM

God I hate all of the idiots on here who have their tongues half way up the arse of Bob Perry, He is a naval architect for christs sake. He didn't climb down from a friggin mountain with the definitave set of boat plans,,, or should I say "ARK" in his arms,,, chipped out of a granite plinth which fucked Aehimides the minute he saw them and that was even before he tried to lift them. No.. Bob perry paints pretty pictures and I am the first to say how pretty they are and that they work. What I am trying to say is that we all liveing a tiny world calle SA- Cruising Anarchy and that in this tiny world there is no space for Perries nor Vrold de Vigenvolds,. We are all sailors or we are all nothing. And if we post with nothing... Everybody receives exactly... (NOTHING) And as far as I am concerned.. Nothing means a lot if it costs nothing.

#84 gusmus

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:04 AM

Bob ... Shut up unless the fucking boat is halfway sunk.
Bob,, You can shout if it is one of yours
Bob, you can shout about injustice only if your roundy endied bastid sinks mine and your tank had bicycle tied to the roof (they all do)
Bob, you have to prove that yours was able to float in the first place without the tablets and the leather leadernhosen, I won't mention the 25 litres of beer consumed in polite company. nor the shenanigens afterwards because I know that you are a god fearin man- Especially when there is that Seatlle perfume in the supermarhet under your armpits.... Happy Xmas. WcW

#85 Ishmael

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:10 AM

This corner of the bar is shut off. cut off drinks for free very rowdy tonight.



#86 boomer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:50 AM

Last call till the sailors down under show up....

#87 oregonarchist

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:59 AM

Bollocks
I don't need apologist posts on behalf of anonymous posters. Who the fuck do you think I am? An idiot who happened to stumble apon your little clique?. look at my posts for christs sake. I used to write for this rag. I even consulted Bob over possible cheats going on in the AC. Go back to being an idiot and dream of the perfect world... you won't find it here. HTFU. try it first and tell me if your balls are big enough to clang louder than Big Ben.
And now you may start toasting the pop-corn



I didn't so much think so before, but yes, now I think you're an idiot. And, I don't care who you are. Though you do seem very impressed with yourself, so I gather that you are a very important, knowledgeable, accomplished idiot.

I really don't care who anyone here is. I just care how they are. Some add, some detract. I have encountered some good and some bad, and a few idiots. Mostly the idiots express delusions of self-importance, or genius, or grand accomplishment they struggle to get others to see.

You're not a very good reader, though. I made no apologies for Bob Perry or anyone else, so don't know what you're on about there. Just told you to chill, in so many words. As Boomer said, my hope was that you get beyond feeling ostracized -- or under-appreciated or whatever your insecurity is -- and to wish you the best. Bob can apologize for himself or not as he sees fit. I do find it odd that you want me to tell you about my balls, though. That's a bit off topic even for this whacked-ass thread.

Maybe you're just drunk? Regardless, I think I'll take BV's advice, and just let you be an idiot on your own.

By all means, carry on. Enjoy your popcorn.

#88 Paps

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:26 AM

Last call till the sailors down under show up....


We've been here all day already!

Just started drinking though. :ph34r:

#89 Paps

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:27 AM

This corner of the bar is shut off. cut off drinks for free very rowdy tonight.



You can say that again.

#90 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:30 AM

Wow, I just got back from a day sail and look at this mess. I'm going to have a drink and head off to bed. You all have a nice night, and drive safely on your way home. I'm sure it'll all be a little embarrassing in the morning.

Isn't it amazing what anonymity does to interpersonal communication?

G'night all,

BV

#91 Paps

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:40 AM

I will say something though. I have taken my role here on the CA forum seriously and have been offensive whenever possible, to whoever possible.

Recently though a comment I made was found offensive and as a result I got sent to Coventry.

Have any of you ever been to Coventry?

Its really dull.

#92 boomer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:59 AM

You sound more like an old grandpa who delights in seeing if he can raise some hackles...all the while slapping his knees and rolling in laughter.

But I won't tell anyone and this post is scheduled to self destruct in approx. four hours.

#93 Paps

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:01 AM

Exactly Boomer, so why the different strokes?

#94 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:08 AM

Went to a Christmas party this afternoon,

New great secret Santa thing, hand out numbers we had about 30. you could steel presents of people was fun.

#95 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:10 AM

PS. boomer, you are a post whore, just own it. :P

#96 boomer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:12 AM

Only in the winter. :D You been around here long enough to know, sometimes I disappear for months at a time, though I've always got a computer with me where ever I go, quite often just to busy or tired to post...and just reading can be quite entertaining.

My wife had a party,too and about the same number...but they were all women....so I escaped.

#97 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:16 AM

Only in the winter. :D

My wife had a party,too and about the same number...but they were all women....so I escaped.

Poof, I was allowed to take a present of somebody. I took a BIG BEER glass of somebody, but then somebody took it of me...

I ended up with bath salts, I dont have a bath :(

#98 stranded

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You don't have to be a moron to make a typo.


[ UNQUOTE ]


this thread is too SERIOUSLY funny !

Knotted knickers caused by ineffective sarcasm detectors and over zealous spelling nazis !

All started by a stinkboat owner who thinks cruising is firing up an outboard.

After too much sun and amber liquid, which he thinks is an antidote to the North Queensland sun.

For him, sailing is to be drinks boy on a pickle fork that fails to heel ...... since turtled !!!

As they say in the classics, you cannot make this shit up!


For me to visit a NA for some advice / consultation, is akin to " visiting " my lawyer

@ $75+ per hour...

Here we get it ALL in fine detail from Bob ( not bob / dug ) for FREE !

( except for the time waste factor attached to hanging around this place )


NO, I an NOT being sarcastic !

#99 Dale dug a hole

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:39 AM

WTF... :blink:

#100 stranded

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:46 AM

Reading comprehension problem ?

or too much information ?




Too wet to cart ?

or is the crush finished ?




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