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I'm going to drill some holes in my boat


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#1 Steam Flyer

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

I have a Santana 23 with a deck that was slightly crunched around the mast step. When I started digging into it, I found that 1- it wasn't all that well-built in the first place and
2- a series of half-ass repairs have been made in that area and
3- the mast step has been moved at least 3 times in the past 31 years.

I have laid new glass both over & under the area, and added a strut angling down to the front of the daggerboard trunk.

Question- when I put the mast step back on, where will the optimum placement be? The tuning guide includes rake but no measurement for the mast butt (at least, not any of the 3 tuning guides I have for it)... however they suggest various things to minimize the strong weather helm these boats are known for (mine has never seemed that bad), and more rake generally improves pointing...

Should I put the mast step as far forward as is practical on the deck pad (slightly raised area under the mast step)?

I can line it up so the aft face, or the midline, of the stick is in line with the double uppers, will it hurt anything if the mast is as much as an inch or maybe even 1 1/2 inches forward of this point?

I hate to sound stupid but to be honest, it did not occur to me that the mast step might have been moved before, now it looks like it wasn't even centered side-to-side.

Thanks
FB- Doug

#2 30Man

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

Ask this in the Fixit Anarchy forum and you should get some good advice.

#3 casc27

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

Research should turn up the proper fore-aft placement for the mast step. Make sure the lateral placement is centered between the shroud chainplates, not the hull sides. It's surprising how asymetrical boats can be.

#4 Steam Flyer

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

Ask this in the Fixit Anarchy forum and you should get some good advice.


I'm asking tuning advice, not fixit advice


Research should turn up the proper fore-aft placement for the mast step. Make sure the lateral placement is centered between the shroud chainplates, not the hull sides. It's surprising how asymetrical boats can be.


True, thanks for the reminder.
Not sure what you mean by "research," I thought this was the best place to ask advanced sailing questions. There are only 3 tuning guides for the boat ever written, one is over 30 years old and refers to carrying a blooper fer gosh sake. The most recent & best one advocates setting the mast rake as far back as possible with regard to weather helm, but to rake the mast forward if the helm is difficult. Not very specific!

This is one reason why I am thinking of putting the mast step as far forward as physically possible, but it has parallel uppers (double spreader in fact) so I am concerned about getting it out of column.

Thank you both for the input, I appreciate your taking the time to answer

FB- Doug

#5 mustang__1

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:44 AM

have a machine shop make a mast step plate that allows you to move the mast step on the plate?

#6 JohnMB

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:58 AM


Ask this in the Fixit Anarchy forum and you should get some good advice.


I'm asking tuning advice, not fixit advice


Research should turn up the proper fore-aft placement for the mast step. Make sure the lateral placement is centered between the shroud chainplates, not the hull sides. It's surprising how asymetrical boats can be.


True, thanks for the reminder.
Not sure what you mean by "research," I thought this was the best place to ask advanced sailing questions. There are only 3 tuning guides for the boat ever written, one is over 30 years old and refers to carrying a blooper fer gosh sake. The most recent & best one advocates setting the mast rake as far back as possible with regard to weather helm, but to rake the mast forward if the helm is difficult. Not very specific!

This is one reason why I am thinking of putting the mast step as far forward as physically possible, but it has parallel uppers (double spreader in fact) so I am concerned about getting it out of column.

Thank you both for the input, I appreciate your taking the time to answer

FB- Doug


I think the deal is that like others who might consider posting, its hard to know where best to place the step without trying a few positions.
Research would consist of trying a few mast step positions and seeing what effect it has.

You probably already know the things to consider
For example that putting it forward means more rake, but more backward pull on the shrouds. I.e. shroud tension will affect both lateral stability and mast bend, which may chnage the way the backstay affects mast bend......

this will mean that the final effect will not be immediately apparent, and may depend on (or dictate) the cut of your sails.

Do you have a short term option which allows you to adjust the mast step and try a few different positions?

#7 DA-WOODY

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:01 AM

I'm asking tuning advice, not fixit advice


take it to Tuna Anarchy

if it was moved and no longer had the issues the un moved one's do and you put it back like the others ............

make a slot and play around

then glass it up when ya got it how ya like it

PM some dude he has containers of templets :)

#8 Steam Flyer

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

have a machine shop make a mast step plate that allows you to move the mast step on the plate?


That's a good idea but I can't do it this afternoon. I think I can get about 3 1/2 inches fore-and-aft adjustment... btw there used to be a class of S23s in Sarasota, I bought mine down there... there were at least 8 others at the club.


...
I think the deal is that like others who might consider posting, its hard to know where best to place the step without trying a few positions.
Research would consist of trying a few mast step positions and seeing what effect it has.

You probably already know the things to consider
For example that putting it forward means more rake, but more backward pull on the shrouds. I.e. shroud tension will affect both lateral stability and mast bend, which may chnage the way the backstay affects mast bend......

this will mean that the final effect will not be immediately apparent, and may depend on (or dictate) the cut of your sails.

Do you have a short term option which allows you to adjust the mast step and try a few different positions?


The way it is right now, I'd have to pull the base plate and drill new holes. But I can make a template and get it to a machine shop for next time I unrig.

Also a good point about how my boat (as it was) apparently has less issues than other S23s so I don't want to move it far...think I'll put it right at the position where the shrouds are in line with the aft face of the mast, which is about 1/2" forward of where it was (I think).

I knew the "drilling holes" would get more attention than asking about mast step placement
:ph34r:

Thanks all

FB- Doug

#9 mustang__1

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:55 AM

well if you cant do it right this afternoon, then maybe you should put it off until you can do it...


in any case, yeah there are one or two down there still i think. i can't remember the last time i saw them sail, but, then, i havent really been around in four years... i guess a more accurate statement would be, four years ago, i couldnt remember the last time i saw them sail.

#10 facthunt

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:45 AM

if the spreaders are fixed, foot position + rig tension = prebend,push the foot forward less prebend, back more prebend.
you need to set it to suit the luf curve in your main.

#11 Steam Flyer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:09 PM

well if you cant do it right this afternoon, then maybe you should put it off until you can do it...


in any case, yeah there are one or two down there still i think. i can't remember the last time i saw them sail, but, then, i havent really been around in four years... i guess a more accurate statement would be, four years ago, i couldnt remember the last time i saw them sail.


Yeah but the 'take the time, do it RIGHT' scenario ends up with me spending a couple years and $15k building a brand-new carbon-fiber vacuum bagged... Santana 23D. I wanna go fukkin sail the thing!

I bought this boat about 6 years ago and it hadn't raced in 2 years back then... you're young, four years is a long time to you. For us geezers it's just barely enough time to think about a nap. They're cool boats though, as long as they're around maybe somebody will get a class together again.


if the spreaders are fixed, foot position + rig tension = prebend,push the foot forward less prebend, back more prebend.
you need to set it to suit the luf curve in your main.


Good point.
I spent some time yesterday measuring as precisely as I could; turns out the cabin top is a bit deceptive. To put the mast step as far forward as possible results in the uppers coming down about 1/4" forward of the mast centerline at the step. It's about 1 or maybe 1 1/4" forward of where it sat previously. No forward lowers or babystay but could add a babystay I guess... the bowman wouldn't like it, and it's a frac rig anyway.

Looks like good weather, hopefully today I'll be able to get the thing bolted on then take it back to the sailing club.

FB- Doug




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