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Franck Cammas Racing


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#1 Tony-F18

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

New syndicates deserve their own threads :-)

http://www.cammas-gr..._equipe_292.jsp

"To this end, we're creating Franck CAMMAS Racing and we'll participate in the AC 45 World Series circuit in 2013 with some new partners."
Posted Image

He will also be participating in the LAC, and possibly the Olympics with the N17.

#2 Sastrugi

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:22 PM

YES! Cammas is one damn likable guy! Very happy to see him getting involved in the AC!

kör hårt.

#3 Hastings

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:02 PM

Yes, a good thing.

Particularly good for him if the AC stays with cats.

#4 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:09 PM

I guess he doesn't read SA comments on the ACWS, or maybe he does and takes it with a grain of salt.

#5 pjfranks

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

Any one know whose boats they'll be buying? TC TK ET?

#6 Rennmaus

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:21 PM

Who's going to pay?

#7 pjfranks

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:22 PM

Some new partners

#8 Rennmaus

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

Nice endeavor.

#9 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:31 PM

Any one know whose boats they'll be buying? TC TK ET?

ETNZ -

#10 Alpina

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:27 PM

This is fuckin' awesome, FC and BA in the 45s preparing for the their AC72 challenges for AC35, bring it! All haters can now go kill themselves, the AC future is brighter than ever.

#11 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:43 PM

New syndicates deserve their own threads :-)

http://www.cammas-gr..._equipe_292.jsp

"To this end, we're creating Franck CAMMAS Racing and we'll participate in the AC 45 World Series circuit in 2013 with some new partners."
Posted Image

He will also be participating in the LAC, and possibly the Olympics with the N17.

Kind of flies in the face of all those that have done little but criticize the event from the start.

Maybe GD will donate his AC45 to help them out.

#12 Tony-F18

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

Who's going to pay?

He is still very much supported by Groupama, just on a smaller scale.
I'm guessing they will be onboard with the AC45 project.

#13 Rennmaus

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:53 PM

We don't know if there will be an ACWS after 2013, we don't know what boat AC35 will be sailed in nor where AC35 will take place. We know that there are 3 challengers, instead of 15 or so, for AC34, and that no French team entered the LVC, instead of three that were projected. In the light of all this, it may be a tad too early to get hysterically excited about Cammas' interest. Although it would be absolutely great to have him participating.
No hater here, just not easily excitable by vague future plans.

#14 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:59 PM

I'm not sure hysteria has broken out over this, but it comes as an interesting endorsement of the ACWS concept regardless of the outcome of the overall event.

#15 Rennmaus

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:07 PM

When critical voices are named "haters" and they shall go kill themselves, well, if that's not hysterically excited (not talking about "hysterical" as such, don't quote me wrong)...

And again, FC is a huge plus for every event.

#16 eric e

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:23 PM

would be an interesting race

between franc + barf

#17 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:52 PM

When critical voices are named "haters" and they shall go kill themselves, well, if that's not hysterically excited (not talking about "hysterical" as such, don't quote me wrong)...

And again, FC is a huge plus for every event.


Not sure I associated critical voices with haters, and not sure I follow the rest of your comment.

Please clarify.

#18 Rennmaus

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

Not about you, but post #10. You just happen to reply to my initial post.

EDIT: Anyway, this is not the actual intent of my initial post, but my perspective that it is too early to take anything for granted. Taking FC being inerested in the AC or even just ACWS as proof for his participation in either - at this time - is like saying that GGYC can hand over the Cup to RNZYS, because ETNZ's boat foils.

#19 SW Sailor

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

Not about you, but post #10. You just happen to reply to my initial post.

EDIT: Anyway, this is not the actual intent of my initial post, but my perspective that it is too early to take anything for granted. Taking FC being inerested in the AC or even just ACWS as proof for his participation in either - at this time - is like saying that GGYC can hand over the Cup to RNZYS, because ETNZ's boat foils.


I see - sorry for the misunderstanding.

Agreed on the rest - talk is cheap but if he follow's through it would be a good endorsement for the event. Loick has stated he will continue with the event, assuming he gets his boat back from impound.

#20 KiwiJoker

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:23 AM


Not about you, but post #10. You just happen to reply to my initial post.

EDIT: Anyway, this is not the actual intent of my initial post, but my perspective that it is too early to take anything for granted. Taking FC being inerested in the AC or even just ACWS as proof for his participation in either - at this time - is like saying that GGYC can hand over the Cup to RNZYS, because ETNZ's boat foils.


I see - sorry for the misunderstanding.

Agreed on the rest - talk is cheap but if he follow's through it would be a good endorsement for the event. Loick has stated he will continue with the event, assuming he gets his boat back from impound.


Agree with both of you. Good chance to test the waters. If FC has interest from significant financing it will be relatively inexpensive to buy or charter an AC45 and campaign a team in the remaining events in the circuit next year.

#21 eric e

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:41 AM

perhaps

the downward slide of the acws expectations has now bottomed out

and the hyper-critical focus has shifted to the ac72s

so now the acws can go about rebuilding itself with more realistic expectations

not before time

there is an excellent event there

trying to find it's place in the market


hats off to larry and co.

for birthing the boats and series

#22 Alpina

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:52 AM

Not about you, but post #10. You just happen to reply to my initial post.

EDIT: Anyway, this is not the actual intent of my initial post, but my perspective that it is too early to take anything for granted. Taking FC being inerested in the AC or even just ACWS as proof for his participation in either - at this time - is like saying that GGYC can hand over the Cup to RNZYS, because ETNZ's boat foils.

Renn, I get curious that you feel accused since I never solely pointed my finger at you? This is not an attempt at ambush but nevertheless I look forward to your answer, why did you take it personally enough to make an unprovoked post like that?

#23 sunseeker

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:11 AM

So Cammas has some time on his hands, can get a boat, and sail in how many regattas? Three? Maybe? Where are they even going to be? Venice yes. But New York maybe. San Fran when. I wonder if there will ever be a team from America. Ken read maybe. Ehman was posting about him today on fuckbook.

#24 dogwatch

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:41 AM

"Sponsor wanted".

Same as BAR.

Pretty tough to close a sponsorship for ACWS in the AC35 cycle when nobody knows if there will be an ACWS in the AC35 cycle.

Those who think the future is so bright, please pass the kutchie.

http://www.youtube.c...B&v=5JcCQlZXMAM

#25 SW Sailor

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:53 AM

I don't suppose you'll be stepping out to help them then :lol:

How about JP Morgan and Henri Lloyd ??

#26 kiwi_jon

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:03 AM

So at the end of the 2013 series we may end up with the same number of teams that were listed to start at Cascais in 2011. I suppose that is progress.

I wonder if Cammas will buy, lease, be gifted one of the LR AC45s.

#27 Scarecrow

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:37 AM

What is the relationship like between Liock and Cammas. The mature and responsible approach would be for Cammas to take the reigns at Energy while Liock is on the Artemis payroll.

#28 Rennmaus

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:40 AM


Not about you, but post #10. You just happen to reply to my initial post.

EDIT: Anyway, this is not the actual intent of my initial post, but my perspective that it is too early to take anything for granted. Taking FC being inerested in the AC or even just ACWS as proof for his participation in either - at this time - is like saying that GGYC can hand over the Cup to RNZYS, because ETNZ's boat foils.

Renn, I get curious that you feel accused since I never solely pointed my finger at you? This is not an attempt at ambush but nevertheless I look forward to your answer, why did you take it personally enough to make an unprovoked post like that?

Wow, I did not take it personally at all, I'm just fed up with the "haters" thingy. I don't think that anyone is "hating" anything here, I mean, it's about a sailboat race, not about the Iranian nuclear program or the ex-wife/-husband of someone.
As for the sailing content of my post: I was astonished that FC's interest provoked your harsh ("haters") and very enthusiastic statement at this early time without many facts, and it reminded me of the ones virtually handing over the Cup to ETNZ now, because OR has flipped - eight/nine months before the event.
Nevermind, having slept a night, I'm now more happy that you are happy about FC recognizing the AC for himself.

So Cammas has some time on his hands, can get a boat, and sail in how many regattas? Three? Maybe? Where are they even going to be? Venice yes. But New York maybe. San Fran when. I wonder if there will ever be a team from America. Ken read maybe. Ehman was posting about him today on fuckbook.


Look at the mysterious Frontpage (http://www.sailingan...index_page1.php), "catching up". No need to rely on TE/FB, it's all here ;) .

#29 nav

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:33 AM

So at the end of the 2013 series we may end up with the same number of teams that were listed to start at Cascais in 2011. I suppose that is progress.

I wonder if Cammas will buy, lease, be gifted one of the LR AC45s.


I heard Loick has already offered the ET boat to practice with in SF - if Franck pays the storage fee. :)

#30 HHN92

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

As for the sailing content of my post: I was astonished that FC's interest provoked your harsh ("haters") and very enthusiastic statement at this early time without many facts, and it reminded me of the ones virtually handing over the Cup to ETNZ now, because OR has flipped - eight/nine months before the event.


As you know from auto racing, winning practice is not the same as winning the race.

Lot's of water under the transom to go until this one is decided.............

Off topic: Did you hear where Gilly is retiring from the match race circuit?

#31 Rennmaus

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:38 PM


As for the sailing content of my post: I was astonished that FC's interest provoked your harsh ("haters") and very enthusiastic statement at this early time without many facts, and it reminded me of the ones virtually handing over the Cup to ETNZ now, because OR has flipped - eight/nine months before the event.


As you know from auto racing, winning practice is not the same as winning the race.

Lot's of water under the transom to go until this one is decided.............

Off topic: Did you hear where Gilly is retiring from the match race circuit?


Right, that's what I mean (although it is big fun to watch ETNZ).

re. OT: Heard about the retirement a couple of days ago. Don't know where he's heading, but he certainly will not be "jobless". An AUS AC campaign? An AUS Volvo Campaign?

#32 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:59 PM

Neat enough piece on Cammas. Would definitely be fun to see him on the same ACWS course as the likes of BA etc. Hopefully he already has a sponsor backing him for it, and just didn't use the Groupama announcement as the time to upstage them, steal any of their limelight, and he will announce in due course.

--
Haven't been keeping up with the VOR. Have many boats been already ordered?

#33 josselin

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:33 PM

I think the most important is that groupama will keep the Engineering team and those guys are already working on F18 cats with wings with Desjoyeau.

The idea is to build progressively some experience and knowledge like they did for the Volvo.

They will first participate to the c class cup. The participation to the AC world series is only one part to the full story. I think it is seems as an other "training boat" to get experience and have some guys to sail together.

after the AC34 they will be in a good "stand by position" : as soon as the revised rules -if any- will be out (very low chance to be back to soft sail monohull) they can kick off the proper design of the new boat.

Franck has always been very clever to use properly the money he was given.

#34 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:43 PM

Is it the existing French LAC team that FC will be involved with or a different effort?

There was an interesting piece in a recent Seahorse magazine that, to my reading of it, suggested a French team are pursuing a full-out foiler.

#35 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

A short video interview with FC, in French

http://www.laprovence.com/video/Franck%2BCammas%2Bveut%2Bfaire%2Bla%2BCoupe%2Bde%2Bl%2527America/1badc58829as/laprovence/sport

Le skipper aixois, Franck Cammas, a annoncé aujourd'hui au salon nautique qu'il voulait faire la prochaine Coupe de l'America en 2016 ou 2017. Pour cela, il lui faudra tout de même la bagatelle de 80 millions d'euros.

#36 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:25 PM

LAC details, g-tran:
http://translate.goo...5NMW5igLWhYH4Dw

#37 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

A short video interview with FC, in French

http://www.laprovenc...aprovence/sport

A longer one
http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/sport/video-franck-cammas-on-a-tout-ce-qu-il-faut-en-france-pour-gagner-la-coupe-de-l-america_1137144.html

#38 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

from this g-tran, bold mine
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&ei=vnbDUP_2G-axiwLnvoAQ&hl=en&langpair=fr|en&rurl=translate.google.com&u=http://nautisme.lefigaro.fr/actualites-nautisme/a-la-une-0/2012-10-29-17-13-00/franck-cammas----cette-coupe-marque-le-debut-d-une-nouvelle-ere--6446.php&usg=ALkJrhgwEOE5L5Qut7R9e9gDRrcVdWv9Gg


Only three challengers could make ends meet. The side of the French, the Peyron brothers were throwing the mop ... Three crews, is it enough to make a good competition?
Two factors explain this situation. First, the economic crisis has come at the wrong time. Sponsors deserted ... And above all, the transition from monohull to multihull scared a lot. Technically, it has changed the world.

What are the major technical changes?
First, the new regulation requires participants to equip their boat with a wing forty meters. This makes them much more extreme, faster upwind, downwind faster. This wing is composed of two parts, called W1 and W2 can also be twisted as needed, thanks to a wiring system and hydraulic cylinders. With this wing, the vessel can reach two to three times the speed of the wind.

Are there other innovations so important?
Yes, these boats are equipped with foils, it is a kind of shoes which are fixed under the hulls. From a certain speed, these pads shells grow out of the water. Friction is thus limited to the maximum and the boat earns between three and four knots. It flies over the water. The foils can also earn up to ten extra degrees of angle. For now, the different teams working on different types of foils. But the team will come out as good a foil to close with that has made a big step towards victory.

The number of crew also will change?
Yes, we're teammates from 16 to 11. The time of seafarers mono task is over. For example, the tactician or the browser must attend to other tasks. This section marks the beginning of a new era.

#39 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

Who's going to pay?

No answer here but a few other details, g-tran

Here, clearly, I am looking for money to the AC45 (the "model" of the AC72, support the Cup). For the America's Cup, except for the Cup itself, there is no need for a lot of money for the rest. To be ready at the highest level, you have to match-racing regattas multihull and AC45 are not so expensive. After that, it is when you go up the team for the Cup, with 80 people, and almost as many millions ... In AC45, we assisted to the boat by Russell Coutts and the organization, but it is for this that he must act quickly: it is three on the spot! But the budget is sought is less than if we had to buy the boat etc.. But you still need to find € 700,000.

#40 Steve Clark

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

Frank bought Alpha from Fred Eaton.
So he has the "most proven" boat in Europe at this time.
The others are all new builds or in the case of PLVI much older.
Benjamin Muyl ( PLVI and Challenge France) is working with the Groupama design team, so there is good cooperation there.
We will get our first look at the new builds in several months and they are scheduled to race in Quiberon May.

Back on this side of the pond, we realize that the game just took a huge step upward with these two expert french teams that rarely fail to deliver the goods.
SHC

#41 dogwatch

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

^

To what extent do you think Cammas is interested in the LAC in its own right versus as a development feeder into a presumed mini-AC72 class in AC35? A speculative question I realise, but I was expecting AC34 teams to rest more on C-class as a development tool than they seem to have done. Mine is entirely an outsiders view however.

#42 Steve Clark

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:10 PM

Does it really matter why Cammas is playing?
The simple fact that he is has my full attention.
SHC

#43 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:14 PM

Does it really matter why Cammas is playing?
The simple fact that he is has my full attention.
SHC

Understandable, for several reasons.

But in just the broader attention-grabbing sense, this has to be a potentially remarkable turn of events for the LAC to have names like Cammas and Groupama suddenly associated with it?

#44 Indio

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:22 PM

Maybe Groupama likes the publicity ETNZ has been generating for Emirates and the rest of their sponsors and wants in on the action.

#45 SimonN

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:54 PM

Without entering into a discussion of how good or otherwise the ACWS is, the reality is that if you want to be part of the AC, you need to be part of it, good or bad. Assuming AC35 is sailed in cats of some sort, I find it hard to see there being any new teams that haven't taken part in the ACWS. Cammas is one of the top professional sailors in the world and just like Ainslie, he realises that to have any chance of getting it together for AC35, he needs to be stepping up now. The LAC stuff shows us how serious he is about the AC - if it was just about the ACWS, he wouldn't be doing that, but the LAC allows him to gain development experience not available in the ACWS.

#46 dogwatch

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:29 AM

Does it really matter why Cammas is playing?
The simple fact that he is has my full attention.
SHC


Well, nothing about sailing "really matters" at all.

If you think about my question, it wasn't that much about Cammas. It was about the relationship between the C-Class and the AC.

#47 josselin

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:02 AM

Knowing Franck background, I am sure he woudl have liked to buy Canaan!!

When you look at the guys involved in the ETNZ design team you find Steve Killing and Benjamin Muyl...
It surely make sense to work on the design of a C class before scaling up the problem to full size AC72

#48 atg

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:22 AM

The C is a chance to put together a full design/build/test team. The current cycle has really turned it into a mini-AC, which is perfect for starters.

Sounds like everyone has already agreed 72 is too big; the inevitable result of this pragmatic approach has to be a C class cat (nothing against A's and Tornadoes - they just don't look quite as impressive).

#49 Xlot

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:52 PM


Gotta love a class that is so open and willing to take the show on the road to make it work. Fred and Magnus could have kept the show in YYZ, and they, along with Steve Clark could keep their tech to themselves, yet they are all totally open and willing to give tooling away to a good home. The LAC should change it's name to the Clark(e)-Eaton trophy or something


Exactly, the guys at Hydros in Lausanne only had praise for Steve Clark, who opened his doors for them and helped them a lot to get a good start!


In the same vein - extraordinary openness is apparently a genetic trait in the Clark dynasty:

Latest from the Cogito project: the Cogito wing is back from the dead and over at Guck Inc. getting detailed. Lars gives us a look at it -

http://clarksail.com/2012/12/03/lars-guck-exclusive-cogito-wing-back-from-the-dead/


Actually of interest also for the AC72-only crowd, shows how lead element twist is done

#50 josselin

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:46 PM

you should also read the results shown from steve killing for alpha and rocker... all the details that drove the designs are shown very openly.

hopefully the class will keep this open mind in the future even with the growth we can foresee

.http://www.stevekilling.com/books.htm

#51 Xlot

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:00 PM

To what extent do you think Cammas is interested in the LAC in its own right versus as a development feeder into a presumed mini-AC72 class in AC35? A speculative question I realise, but I was expecting AC34 teams to rest more on C-class as a development tool than they seem to have done. Mine is entirely an outsiders view however.


Since Steve's not interested in replying, I'll comment fwiw. Indeed:

The C is a chance to put together a full design/build/test team.


(C-cats for the AC is a bit far-fetched, though). Meaning you cannot really scale up results, but main disciplines are the same.

What I realized in my contacts with the Challenge Italia team is that things have changed from "my" time, where you had essentially a single, charismatic designer (Rod Macalpine-Downie, Lindsay Cunningham, Dave Hubbard; Steve Clark and Steve Killing being the latest examples). Nowadays, "even" a C-cat sees a multi-disciplinary team comprising hull specialist, FE modeler, composite structural, aerodynamicist, hydrodynamicist - and of course CFD! (I share your opinion that CFD far from validation points is essentially GIGO). And these are invariably young, bright engineers perfectly adept in the latest, impressively powerful software.

Now, I know I'm not objective when I feel that this is all very well, but it's sort of anonymous, lacking the depth and the inventiveness that I've been fortunate in witnessing in the past.

The other interpretation, unfortunately, is that today there's such an oversupply of young talent that any juicy project gets crowded ..

Be it as it may, this provides an answer to your second question: C-cat old-timers are not in tune with the "modern" (and AC) mentality/methodology.

#52 atg

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:10 PM

If you are any good in OpenFOAM I could use some input on a case setup...

Was kidding about the C in the AC but the foil control would have to be more elegant and responsive on a smaller boat.

#53 Xlot

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

If you are any good in OpenFOAM I could use some input on a case setup...


I'm not, of course. But #2 Son is - and he gets mad when he's told to pretty up a presentation with meaningless (but impressive) "spaghetti diagrams"

#54 blunted

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:51 PM

Knowing Franck background, I am sure he woudl have liked to buy Canaan!!

When you look at the guys involved in the ETNZ design team you find Steve Killing and Benjamin Muyl...
It surely make sense to work on the design of a C class before scaling up the problem to full size AC72


Well he asked to buy Canaan but Fredo said no, number two boat in the world is a dangerous enough weapon to sell the man.

B

#55 GauchoGreg

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:05 PM

What is the relationship like between Liock and Cammas. The mature and responsible approach would be for Cammas to take the reigns at Energy while Liock is on the Artemis payroll.


Energy also has very-talented Yann Guichard.

#56 Willy Clark

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

I think Franck is in because he sees a good opportunity for high quality racing and growing exposure in a rapidly expanding class.


Is it the existing French LAC team that FC will be involved with or a different effort?

There was an interesting piece in a recent Seahorse magazine that, to my reading of it, suggested a French team are pursuing a full-out foiler.


Franck is mounting his own challenge, making his squad the third distinct French group challenging for ICCCC in Falmouth this coming September. The other two are "Challenge France" led by Benjamin Muyl and "Mer Forte" led by Michel Desjoyeaux. This makes six teams in Europe - 3 French, 1 Swiss, 1 Italian, 1 English. There are also still rumors coming out of Portugal.

http://clarksail.com...lass-challenge/

The C-Class Catamaran has been the leading developer of hard wing sailing for almost 50 years. The America's Cup by comparison is very very new to that world. Given this it's actually quite surprising that more America's Cup teams have not sought advice from the many C-Class gurus out there, who have always been remarkable for their openness. A 72 and C-Class are not the same thing. A 72 is not just a scaled up C-Class. However that does not mean that there isn't a whole lot of transferable knowledge. In many ways C-Class competition nowadays does look a whole lot like a mini AC circuit. The boats do have a lot of similarities and the knowledge acquired during a C-Class campaign can been easily applied to other hard wing boats.

http://www.sail-worl...C-Class?/104062

The important thing to remember here is that the C-Class came first. It's true the event formerly known as the "Little America's Cup" was initially based off of the America's Cup, however the C-Class has been developing hard wing sails for almost a half century. The C-Class also altered their racing format to something similar to the AC world Series in 2004, seven years before the AC World Series existed.

We didn't steal their ideas. We came first.

Best,
Willy

#57 Kiwing

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

WC, Thanks for the video on the details of the wing it greatly increased my knowledge and appreciation of wings and how they work. Your Dad falling through the wing in the comp really focus my attention on the vulnerability of wings! "to be first, first you have to finish!!" Thanks again.

#58 Willy Clark

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

Is it the existing French LAC team that FC will be involved with or a different effort?


Our best attempt at clarifying the situation - http://clarksail.com...ams-and-builds/

Best,
Willy

#59 Rennmaus

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:26 PM

Monsieur Cammas foiling:

 

http://www.voilesetv...s-as-du-volant/



#60 ncs

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

Monsieur Cammas foiling:

 

http://www.voilesetv...s-as-du-volant/

 

If you can't join them then beat them.






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