Jump to content


"buy it now?" from front page!


  • Please log in to reply
69 replies to this topic

#1 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,255 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:48 PM

I don't know about others, but it was the ongoing cost that drove me out of sailing almost two years ago, not the initial or resale cost of the boat.

My boats were a little more costly than Nancy's case. Completely aside from the cost of the boat itself - I spent $8-10K/yr on launch/haulout, moorings, storage, maintenance/replacements, sails, insurance AND $15-20K/yr when I was racing! And I was a small fry, the "big boys" spend orders of magnitude more. Over 20-30 years, that adds up to a pile of money - and frankly that's what drove me out.

I definitely miss owning a boat after being an owner for almost 25 years, but I can't justify the ongoing $$$.

Others?


Let me make the case for spending a fair amount of money on a sailboat now.
If you buy a good used boat, let's say for $75K to $100K, for a 8 to 15 year old vessel, the depreciation is pretty much wrung out of it, meaning you could buy it, change your mind 5 years from now to go bigger or smaller or just different, and you can pretty much get your money back out, providing you bought something nice like a Sabre, Morris, J Boat, Alerion, Island Packet, Tartan, or one of the many high quality European brands, or what ever you define as upper level or of higher quality. So, you have tied up some money, which doesn't make anything in right now in CDs or money market funds, but you will get most if not all back when you sell it, so it's really not costing you anything, except what you might have made on it in another investment, no sure thing and possibly you could lose some of that money too. Sure, you have the anxiety of selling your boat to buy the next one, like I'm going through right now with the 2010 Alerion Express 33 I have on the market, but that's just part of changing sailboats, a little like changing colleges where not all of your course credits transfer.
If you buy a new boat, and again, if you choose wisely, you're likely to keep it for a long time. You're a relatively young man and you'll be sailing for at least another 25 years, providing you look after yours and your lady's health. In that scenario, you could make the case for spending $200K+ on a 2013 "All singing, all dancing" fully featured boat of your choice, using the equity in your present boat as the down payment and financing the rest over 15-20 years. I think you can still write off the interest on the basis of it being a second home.
How much you can afford for a new sailboat is absolutely none of anyone's business but yours but if it were me, a certified lunatic who has owned 70 cars, 8 sailboats thus far, 6 motorhomes and 6 motorcycles, but still have the original wife of almost 50 years, I would do it. As one of my old bosses, an Englishman by the name of Ware, said to my saintly wife who was protesting my decision vehemently to buy a new boat back in 2004, and was looking for some persuasive help from him, when I was moving from a perfectly good four year old Colgate 26 to a new Alerion Express 28 costing three times as much, "Nancy, we are dead a long time. Let him have his boat."
In other words, if you are gainfully employed and have most of your other bets and obligations covered, buy something very nice, a new fully equipped boat or a used high quality sailboat, because we are indeed "dead for a long time."
Regards.
Pat Nowak
Nancy Anne Sailing Charters
Holland, MI
12/10/12



#2 TheFlash

TheFlash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,733 posts
  • Location:San Francisco Bay
  • Interests:Rum

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

Yeah - same here. buying a reasonably sized boat - say 35'er, even a cruiser, is a $10k+ annual hit to the budget.

I've got the small boats, etc, and am deciding to charter locally. Even if we take a 10 day cruise this summer, on a fancy 40' cat (Seawind) - charter costs will be less than $5k. I get access to bigger boats than if I own.

And, I can pretty much sail as often, or as little, as I'd like on OPBs.

I do however, miss owning my own boat, and all the little details that go with it. Knowing each little part, it's history, etc. Boats are almost living things.

#3 silent bob

silent bob

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,251 posts
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

What is this "Front Page" that you speak about?

#4 Hitchhiker

Hitchhiker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,635 posts
  • Location:Saquo-Pilia Hensha

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

I have to agree. It is not just the capital investment but the cost of maintenance. Wet berths, bottom maintenance and sails, particularly if you campaign the boat in the local circuit starts to add up very quickly.

I miss not having a boat, and I will own another, but it will likely come with a trailer and I will be far more particular about the type of racing I do.

#5 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,255 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

What is this "Front Page" that you speak about?

I assume you're joking but http://www.sailingan...index_page1.php

#6 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 834 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

The berth rent, bottom cleanings and other maintenance I can budget for, and while good sails are way too expensive you usually can plan out those purchases.

With a non-trailerable boat the big variable is the boat yard bill. That's what I can't seem to control and what has twice caused me to put great boats up for sale. The second time I was kicking and screaming. I took another look - and discovered a marina with a three-ton self-use hoist where I could dry-sail off a trailer. I was able to keep the boat. The space rent was half the cost of a berth, hull cleanings were no longer needed and no more boat yard bills! The boat stayed light and fast - it was a win/win.

The problem is there's only one such hoist in the SF East Bay (maybe two if you count the restrictive Brickyard Cove). I think it's a market waiting to be served.

#7 Sheethead

Sheethead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 296 posts
  • Location:Branford CT
  • Interests:Sierra Nevada, Harpoon, Bushmills, Mt. Gay, Svedka

Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

I have to wonder exactly how the maintenance etc is being executed. Does the yard do all of your maintenance? I find that I save a fukton of cash by doing simple things myself, but the 8K a year average is nothing to sneeze at.

#8 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 834 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:28 PM

I don't want to turn this into a boatyard bashing thread, but if I visited the yard every day the bill seemed to stay manageable, i.e. it appeared to be the inability of the yard managers to control their workers' hours (at over $100/hour).

Out here it's getting harder to do bottom prep yourself and that's the biggest time suck. I do most of the other stuff myself.

#9 walterbshaffer

walterbshaffer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,002 posts
  • Location:San Diego, California USA
  • Interests:Formerly Member No. 9720

Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

You can borrow $100,000 on a Heloc and have a payment under $250 a month

You may be different but my cable TV bill is near that.

More importantly I'm expecting inflation to drive the cost of new boats up substantially while at the same time causing the relative "expensiveness" of a payment to be driven down.

The part about being dead a long time is dead right - don't die never having owned the boat you always wanted.

#10 Tucky

Tucky

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,553 posts
  • Location:Maine

Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:38 PM

Co-owners really knock the annual cost down- how many of us use our boats enough that we couldn't share.

+1 on trailerable- really cuts the number of checks I write to others.

+1 on buying used.

And yes, I really own the boat I want and can use right now, and don't mind sharing it with a couple of friends.

#11 DaveK

DaveK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,632 posts
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:52 PM

Smaller is better

#12 Ajax

Ajax

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,307 posts
  • Location:Edgewater, MD
  • Interests:The sea, women, history, women who like the sea. Racing, crewing, travel, reading, learning.

Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:15 PM

I'd never take a heloc out to buy a boat. That's pre-recession, real-estate bubble talk.
It is possible to own a good boat, and still live within your means, if you're clever and work hard.

#13 peterchech

peterchech

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • Location:New York Harbor

Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

Smaller is better


+1

A boat in the 24-26' range can generally be picked up used for a song, is still big enough to weekend with the girl (maybe fam too if they're small) and really go places in, and costs far less in marina fees and maintenance costs.

I have an old hunter 25. Cost of a new sails isn't too bad. Cost at the NYC area marina I keep it at is about $4400/year. I go sailing after work or whenever I have free time, can handle the sails with little effort, flying the chute double handed is very doable, and it's big fun when the small craft advisories are out. Plenty of space to go down below and warm up when winter sailing, make some coffee etc, plenty of space for overnighting with the girl, or just to hang up the gear to dry out.

My father has an old c&c 32. Only 7' longer, but he's paying over $6400 at the same marina. He needs new sails, and the cost for his boat is almost double what it is for my boat from the same loft. Same comparison goes for new rigging and probably most other maintenance costs. Full standing headroom is nice for us taller guys, don't get me wrong, but every time you have to go below it's just that much more of a hike coming up and down. Handling the sails, even just cranking up the main, is a royal PITA compared to my little boat, just tacking is so much more work (no self tailers unfortunately). And we've done alot of shrimping lately trying to double hand the hoist/drop in anything over ~12 knots of breeze

I race on an evelyn 26, and when the breeze and waves are up we have a blast, it's just more fun than on the bigger boats imo. More painful, and those conditions kill us in phrf esp on a distance course, and we're way more likely to wipe out too I've noticed, but all in all there's more adrenaline pumping when shit starts happening. Which makes the beer and stories so much better at the dock...

#14 IC43

IC43

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 27 posts
  • Location:New York, NY
  • Interests:All sorts of stuff

Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:34 PM

I agree with the maintenance argument. A typical 35 foot boat in the North East will cost about 5K-10K per year before you go for a sail. It's possible to lower these expenses but some have a floor.

Here's a rough example: Insurance $2K, winter storage $2k (assuming I do the engine work), summer storage (my mooring is cheap $200). A dock will run you $3K-5K. Regulations make it harder to do bottom work which every two years will run you about $2K ($1K per season). 10 bottoms cleaning a year at $80 = $800. It's not hard to get there. Add in new sails three sails a year at an average price of $5K and you easily running at $20K to $25K per year if you're actively racing.

I'm sure there are ways to cut these expenses, but I'm sure your results will also suffer.

A smart man said by a boat half the size you think you can afford. He's right because you'll end up spending double. I'd estimate that depending on the entry price of your boat, you spend between 25% and 50% (cheap boat) of the initial purchase price to cover operating expenses. Assuming you actively race.

#15 dacapo

dacapo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,401 posts
  • Location:NY
  • Interests:walks on the beach,a good book,a good cry

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

I don't know about others, but it was the ongoing cost that drove me out of sailing almost two years ago, not the initial or resale cost of the boat.

My boats were a little more costly than Nancy's case. Completely aside from the cost of the boat itself - I spent $8-10K/yr on launch/haulout, moorings, storage, maintenance/replacements, sails, insurance AND $15-20K/yr when I was racing! And I was a small fry, the "big boys" spend orders of magnitude more. Over 20-30 years, that adds up to a pile of money - and frankly that's what drove me out.

I definitely miss owning a boat after being an owner for almost 25 years, but I can't justify the ongoing $$$.

Others?


Let me make the case for spending a fair amount of money on a sailboat now.
If you buy a good used boat, let's say for $75K to $100K, for a 8 to 15 year old vessel, the depreciation is pretty much wrung out of it, meaning you could buy it, change your mind 5 years from now to go bigger or smaller or just different, and you can pretty much get your money back out, providing you bought something nice like a Sabre, Morris, J Boat, Alerion, Island Packet, Tartan, or one of the many high quality European brands, or what ever you define as upper level or of higher quality. So, you have tied up some money, which doesn't make anything in right now in CDs or money market funds, but you will get most if not all back when you sell it, so it's really not costing you anything, except what you might have made on it in another investment, no sure thing and possibly you could lose some of that money too. Sure, you have the anxiety of selling your boat to buy the next one, like I'm going through right now with the 2010 Alerion Express 33 I have on the market, but that's just part of changing sailboats, a little like changing colleges where not all of your course credits transfer.
If you buy a new boat, and again, if you choose wisely, you're likely to keep it for a long time. You're a relatively young man and you'll be sailing for at least another 25 years, providing you look after yours and your lady's health. In that scenario, you could make the case for spending $200K+ on a 2013 "All singing, all dancing" fully featured boat of your choice, using the equity in your present boat as the down payment and financing the rest over 15-20 years. I think you can still write off the interest on the basis of it being a second home.
How much you can afford for a new sailboat is absolutely none of anyone's business but yours but if it were me, a certified lunatic who has owned 70 cars, 8 sailboats thus far, 6 motorhomes and 6 motorcycles, but still have the original wife of almost 50 years, I would do it. As one of my old bosses, an Englishman by the name of Ware, said to my saintly wife who was protesting my decision vehemently to buy a new boat back in 2004, and was looking for some persuasive help from him, when I was moving from a perfectly good four year old Colgate 26 to a new Alerion Express 28 costing three times as much, "Nancy, we are dead a long time. Let him have his boat."
In other words, if you are gainfully employed and have most of your other bets and obligations covered, buy something very nice, a new fully equipped boat or a used high quality sailboat, because we are indeed "dead for a long time."
Regards.
Pat Nowak
Nancy Anne Sailing Charters
Holland, MI
12/10/12


you're sailing for the wrong reasons perhaps?? the cost of campaigning a boat shouldn't "drive you away" from sailing. Perhaps competitive racing but it shouldn't cause you to give up sailing....unless of course a sailboat is a means to winning a boat race.

#16 Sheethead

Sheethead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 296 posts
  • Location:Branford CT
  • Interests:Sierra Nevada, Harpoon, Bushmills, Mt. Gay, Svedka

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:12 PM

THREE SAILS A YEAR??? Holy crap, I'd be talking to the loft about why you only get one season out of your sails... or the snacktician for calling the wrong hoist...

Real question, should be a poll: Do you have to replace sails every year to be competitive? Prolly in OD but racing PHRF... I don't see the merit unless you treat your gear like shit.

#17 Trendsetter

Trendsetter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,801 posts
  • Location:Annapolis

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:46 PM

Say what you want about Pat but I recall back when he had a god awful Gemi cat and was trying to beer can race it, then jumping to the Colgate he mentioned in the article. Also to add some insight, I know he does not race his boats hard, he is a competitive beer can sailer so this may help keep some of the costs down that other people have mentioned before me here. So I would agree with most of what he says, as long as you dont think you are going to run a serious high end race program in which case just piss the money away know and cut your loses.

Clearly it is working for him, and from knowing the man from years past I would say I would be damn lucky to be him when I grow up!

#18 R Booth

R Booth

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37,326 posts
  • Location:Just out of eyesight....
  • Interests:Postponing my funeral 'til tomorrow....

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:59 PM

Did someone say Buy It Now?...... :lol:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cal-34-sloop-1967-Perfect-little-project-boat-/221163157900?_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&forcev4exp=true

#19 Haco

Haco

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 19 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Canada
  • Interests:Kiting, Sailing, that's all

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

I'm wondering if the sail makers aren't pulling one over- Formula windsurf race sails initially get faster with a little use and then retain their speed till you put an appendage through them. The tech changes but old ones still hold their speed...

#20 IC43

IC43

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 27 posts
  • Location:New York, NY
  • Interests:All sorts of stuff

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:07 PM

THREE SAILS A YEAR??? Holy crap, I'd be talking to the loft about why you only get one season out of your sails... or the snacktician for calling the wrong hoist...

Real question, should be a poll: Do you have to replace sails every year to be competitive? Prolly in OD but racing PHRF... I don't see the merit unless you treat your gear like shit.


My experience is you have to buy a lot of sails. First off-remember that most boats are racing with three jibs/genoas, a main and two to three spinnakers We used to race 25-30 days a year. We would buy a medium and a half ounce kite every year. These get beat up hard as they are used the most. A new main every other year. In the non-main years replace the heavy one or the three. You can push it out but then you end up sailing old sails at the wrong times. If it is very windy you might put off the medium and instead replace a heavy one or three. But three sails was pretty typical.

#21 Sheethead

Sheethead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 296 posts
  • Location:Branford CT
  • Interests:Sierra Nevada, Harpoon, Bushmills, Mt. Gay, Svedka

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:27 PM

Yeah, we race with 6 sails- all mentioned above. repalcing 1/2 of my inventory every year would certainly make me rethink this racing crap. Guess we're content with our performance with the old rags we fly, got a new #1 on order - hope that brings us up from 4th overall in the circut next season...

#22 mcsailor0303

mcsailor0303

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 451 posts
  • Location:THE GORGE
  • Interests:Kiteboarding, Ladies, Beer, and SAILING

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:27 PM

My family and friends often ask why I am always broke...it's because ever since I bought my first Laser at age 12 I knew that I would own at least one sailboat until the day I die.

I don't believe sailboats are an investment, they are a passion. You get it or you don't.

Many people would much rather go with sailing OPB, but for me that is kind of like going to a strip club vs. going home to a smoking hot wife. Sure you get the stoke from the ride, but at the end of the day you don't get to look at her and say softly to yourself, "job well done".

Boats are so fucking cool.

#23 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 834 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

^ You can close the thread now.

#24 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,255 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:59 PM

you're sailing for the wrong reasons perhaps?? the cost of campaigning a boat shouldn't "drive you away" from sailing. Perhaps competitive racing but it shouldn't cause you to give up sailing....unless of course a sailboat is a means to winning a boat race.

I've loved sailing ever since my first season many years ago, still do. With all due respect, after (round numbers) 40 years sailing, 25 as a boat owner, and racing seriously over 20 - I think I can sort out the reasons for myself. Not a matter of what I can afford, but what makes sense to me, which goes beyond the $ in part. Not faulting boatyards or other marine services either - my point was simply the operating costs, even doing a lot of work myself, has just gotten too high in the overall scheme of things IMO. The purchase cost of the boat is/was secondary to me, I get a chunk of that back on resale. The money spent on just operating expenses for just sailing (never mind competitive racing) are gone forever, and they're far more than the cost of the boat in the long run. YMMV

#25 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 834 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:30 PM

FWIW, both dacapo and I own J/92's. Maybe you just haven't owned the right boat yet. (I know we've had that discussion.)

#26 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,329 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:07 AM

Smaller is better


Ahmen Brother

But the main thing is having the ride the makes you Happy that YOU can take out and use often enough to keep you Happy



If ya gutta take a second job to make payments on a ride you can't sail cuz ya gutta work to make the payments = FAIL

If ya get a boat that you enjoy but costs enough to cause a collapse of the rest of your life = FAIL

If ya get a boat that you can only run-down rather than properly maintain = FAIL

HAY I'm happy with a 12' ride that I have enjoyed from DAGO to AUCKLAND

It works for me "And Chicks Dig It"

ya I'd love to have any one of Many Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Bigger rides

But i have a budget to stay within and holdings on shore to maintain 1st

If I can't afford to take me YACHT out it sits for Free on a trailer

Talking to Cougars at the track, it doesn't help to say I have a 12' YACHT

But I still get em to come out and they have a Good time too

a Boat should Never be Bigger than what You'll be Happy to Maintain and Able to Use "Often"

#27 Mung Breath

Mung Breath

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts
  • Location:Connecticut
  • Interests:Balance in Life

Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:17 AM

Tucky raises a valid point about the benefit of co-owners or perhaps better, a 'non-equity 'overhead-only' partner. In my experience - and this comes from 'investing' in a plethora of extravagant toys over the years - no one uses their toys 100% of the time. And owning anything of passion is more enjoyable if shared by like-minded friends.

Some toys don't share well. But IMO, a boat partnership has several clear benefits:
  • Shared camaraderie of planning annual cruises, races and deliveries
  • Shared camaraderie of prioritizing annual upgrades, projects and replacements
  • Shared camaraderie and division of TLC maintenance labor
  • Shared vacation delivery direction (i.e I sail the boat to Maine with my family, you sail her back to RI with yours)
  • Someone else to wash the boat occassionally rather than non-use
  • Someone to check on the boat occassonally rather than non-use
  • Help with storm provisioning
  • Division of upgrade, maintenance and fixed/variable expenses
  • Freedom of an open-checkbook mindset to keep her in Bristol condition
This arrangement isn't for everyone. IMO, there should be one owner. But my club has many healthy examples of positive 'shared' partnerships. Key is to start with the right partner(s), then find the boat that meets your mutual goals. Personally, because I don't use my boat more that 15% of the season, I'd gladly share her with the right 'overhead only' partner. Expense division is a huge plus but the camaraderie is equally as valuable.

#28 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,676 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:41 AM

One of the truely great things about sailing is how "scalable" it is. If your flush, you can go big and buy that new racer and go to Key West or do the circuit in the Caribbean. If you not, you can buy a $3k PHRF "C" boat and do your local beer can series. You can have almost as much fun doing either with the right attitude.

But the original post is quite true. You're only here for a few relatively short years, and you really can't take it with you. And who can predict how life can suddenly change? Get run over by a bus, or be on the top floor of the World Trade Center on the wrong day. Spend you time (and yes, your money to some degree once your obligations are covered) doing things that allow you and your family and/or good friends to be with each other and enjoy each other...cause our time here just doesn't last all that long

#29 Foolish

Foolish

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 808 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:20 AM

If I was the richest man in the world,
I'd have a bigger boat and newer sails.
But on a Saturday afternoon with only
God and the Wind, I wouldn't be any
happier than I am right now.

#30 R Booth

R Booth

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37,326 posts
  • Location:Just out of eyesight....
  • Interests:Postponing my funeral 'til tomorrow....

Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:20 AM

If I was the richest man in the world,
I'd have a bigger boat and newer sails.
But on a Saturday afternoon with only
God and the Wind, I wouldn't be any
happier than I am right now.


Yup. Some of my most pleasant memories on the water were f'ng around the back bays of San Diego in my $50.00 B/Whaler Squall, fly fishing for halibut, knocking back warm beer and scarfing up stale Lay's bbq chips. Sometimes being 'rich' is just a state of mind.....

#31 walterbshaffer

walterbshaffer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,002 posts
  • Location:San Diego, California USA
  • Interests:Formerly Member No. 9720

Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

I'd never take a heloc out to buy a boat. That's pre-recession, real-estate bubble talk.
It is possible to own a good boat, and still live within your means, if you're clever and work hard.


While I understand & fully appreciate your apparent aversion to debt for some people it will make more sense to reduce expenses somewhere to expend those funds somewhere else where where they also might produce some tax benefits.

It's pure math.

#32 phillysailor

phillysailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 372 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

I have a wee boat (17 footer) and love daysails, have done overnights and such, even did first leg and 1/2 of the EC. I've chartered and borrowed bigger boats (up to 46ft) and raced on a bunch. Planning a bareboat BVI for spring. Gotta say, owning a small boat and staying at a B&B with a dock (or just a beach) is awesome in terms of comfort, no-stress provisioning, and warm showers. Wife is happy to go next time, too. Pick the destination and time based on weather, free to alter plans at a whim... no fixed schedule means sensible routing. Using a tent easily expands options and lets the kids have fun camping out.

When I want to, I can arrange to jump on a big boat and can have longer/bigger sails, but I experience NO MORE satisfaction than after a day on my little thing. I totally understand her systems, and have made several improvements well within the capabilities of this home DIY guy with some fids, epoxy and time out in the garage. Storage fees? Nil. Cleaning/yearly maintenance ridiculously cheap & easy.

I've sailed my boat in the Gulf of Mexico, Quantico River, up & down the Chesapeake, Delaware River, lakes in NH and out by Pittsburgh, Barnegat Bay, Chincoteague Bay and several other places. Nice views! What other type of boat could take me to so many places with a modest investment of time and $?

Total expenditure with trailer, registration, maintenance, upgrades, new sail, autopilot experiment, equipping for EC and travel & lodging to and from all these places? Right around $40-45K over 8 years of ownership and about 120 sailing days.

THAT'S affordable. THAT'S bang for your buck!

#33 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,255 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:16 PM

One of the truely great things about sailing is how "scalable" it is. If your flush, you can go big and buy that new racer and go to Key West or do the circuit in the Caribbean. If you not, you can buy a $3k PHRF "C" boat and do your local beer can series. You can have almost as much fun doing either with the right attitude.

But the original post is quite true. You're only here for a few relatively short years, and you really can't take it with you. And who can predict how life can suddenly change? Get run over by a bus, or be on the top floor of the World Trade Center on the wrong day. Spend you time (and yes, your money to some degree once your obligations are covered) doing things that allow you and your family and/or good friends to be with each other and enjoy each other...cause our time here just doesn't last all that long

So you missed the part about ongoing costs vs boat purchase cost. The "buy it now?" article misrepresents the point by talking only about the upfront cost of a boat - written by someone who's having trouble selling an Alerion 33 for $238K. Could be seen as disingenuous salesmanship...

And I've never bought the life is short argument, it sounds nice but you balance the now with the future in life, including managing your money. Odds are so remote that you'll get run over by a bus or be in a World Trade Center event, you have to plan for what's most likely...YMMV

#34 Weyalan

Weyalan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 818 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:31 PM

I own a big boat... well, I say "big" - I'm sure 40' used to be big, these days not so much. We race, but mostly beercan / weekend warrior stuff, and we enjoy the racing. The occasional serious offshore race we do certainly hits the pocketbook hard, but Wednesday night "beercan" races and occasional local weekend ragattas not so much. We do almost all our own maintenance, and make sail purchase choices based on longevity as much as performance. Even so, it is a big chunk of income to have that boat. Nevertheless, finishing work Friday afternoon after a hard week, and being able to make a spontaneous decision to go to the boat via the grovery store and the bottle shop, jump on board and throw the lines and wake up Saturday morning in a quiet bay, swinging on the anchor... that makes it all worth it.

#35 MoMP

MoMP

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,921 posts
  • Location:Boston, USA

Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:05 PM

I have a wee boat (17 footer) and love daysails, have done overnights and such, even did first leg and 1/2 of the EC. I've chartered and borrowed bigger boats (up to 46ft) and raced on a bunch. Planning a bareboat BVI for spring. Gotta say, owning a small boat and staying at a B&B with a dock (or just a beach) is awesome in terms of comfort, no-stress provisioning, and warm showers. Wife is happy to go next time, too. Pick the destination and time based on weather, free to alter plans at a whim... no fixed schedule means sensible routing. Using a tent easily expands options and lets the kids have fun camping out.

When I want to, I can arrange to jump on a big boat and can have longer/bigger sails, but I experience NO MORE satisfaction than after a day on my little thing. I totally understand her systems, and have made several improvements well within the capabilities of this home DIY guy with some fids, epoxy and time out in the garage. Storage fees? Nil. Cleaning/yearly maintenance ridiculously cheap &

I've sailed my boat in the Gulf of Mexico, Quantico River, up & down the Chesapeake, Delaware River, lakes in NH and out by Pittsburgh, Barnegat Bay, Chincoteague Bay and several other places. Nice views! What other type of boat could take me to so many places with a modest investment of time and $?

Total expenditure with trailer, registration, maintenance, upgrades, new sail, autopilot experiment, equipping for EC and travel & lodging to and from all these places? Right around $40-45K over 8 years of ownership and about 120 sailing days.

THAT'S affordable. THAT'S bang for your buck!


Great post and I can relate to the KISS approach, but you blew my mind with a $40-45k budget over 8 years. I have a 23' trimaran which I paid right under $10k for. Beyond normal maintenance, it is getting upgraded over the next couple of season; standing and running rigging, sails, etc. I do most of the general work myself, spends winters in my driveway and summers on a mooring and after 8 years I won't be close to that expense.

I assume the purchase price was a large percent of that budget. What kind of boat do you own?

#36 craigiri

craigiri

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,340 posts
  • Location:Home of US Sailing
  • Interests:Sailing, Innovation, Web Development, Writing, etc.

Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:16 PM

My first sailboat, a Precision 18, was bought for about 14.5K with all gear and sold for 11.5K after three full seasons of use. I spend about $1000 per year total on installing the mooring, registration, storage, etc.

So that's a total of about 6K, what it might cost to go on Vacation for 10 days with the wifey.

My newer tri will likely cost a bit more - maybe $3K per year all told. But, as MasterCard says, it's priceless.

My wife saw the lasers racing off 3rd beach (middletown, RI) and said it looked like great fun. If the budget didn't allow for the tri or another such boat, I'd grab a sailing dinghy or something similar and have a blast for almost nothing. I've been on America's cup boats and big cruisers...and I definitely have as much, or more, fun on the little craft.

Tennis, skiing, etc. all cost money too. Done right, day sailing can be very reasonable. The most expensive part of sailing, I suppose, is the actual time that people (don't) have to do it!

Life is short? That works for those of us who didn't buy a bunch of "stuff" when we were younger and therefore saved and scrimped...and now can afford it. But just because one can afford it, doesn't mean they should do it!

Boothy is right about those whalers. I had a 13 and a 15...many memories. One of the powerboat mags once did an article on how much boating cost per pound of fish caught...compared the basic boats to the sportfisherman. As you can imagine, the price varies greatly but NOT the fun or satisfaction.

#37 R Booth

R Booth

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37,326 posts
  • Location:Just out of eyesight....
  • Interests:Postponing my funeral 'til tomorrow....

Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:22 AM

It was actually one of these, Craig----fun to sail, rowed like a dream, stable as hell and heavier than shit....


Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#38 phillysailor

phillysailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 372 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:11 AM

@ MoMP: Norseboat 17.5 which (after shipping, taxes, trailer, reg) was about $25K I got a few of the nicer options (two rowing stations, full cover, bimini, three sails and then a storm jib besides. I've installed a Raymarine autopilot and most recently fitted her out as a poor-man's cutter rig and replaced the cover with a Sunbrella beauty after the original ripped three times too many during transport. Sad to say, I broke her mast last year (CF - expensive to replace).

Of note, I was including estimated hotel / B&B / campsite costs, food, some of the fuel, maintenance (trailer, too), repairs and upgrades in the $40-45K quote, as well as insurance, lifejackets, GPS, safety equipt, new lines. I was actually trying to estimate just how much I'd been spending. Most likely still on the low side.

If you are starting with a $10K boat, and are able to overnight on her, cook if need be then we have comparable craft, but I'll bet that if you add up your actual costs as I've done you'll come close to (or exceed) my $15-20K budget over 8 years. Sun and rain are evil, and will lead to maintenance; I'm garage kept 100% of non-sailing time, so my maintenance may actually be less? Plus, you'll always need new lifejackets, clothing, nav stuff, charts. It quickly adds up. But much less quickly than on a 45 footer kept in a marina!

#39 Oxygen Mask

Oxygen Mask

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,672 posts
  • Location:Oregon USA

Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:36 AM

I have a wee boat (17 footer)..........Total expenditure with trailer, registration, maintenance, upgrades, new sail, autopilot experiment, equipping for EC and travel & lodging to and from all these places? Right around $40-45K over 8 years of ownership and about 120 sailing days.

THAT'S affordable. THAT'S bang for your buck!

Great post and I can relate to the KISS approach, but you blew my mind with a $40-45k budget over 8 years. ...?


I was about to post the same thing! $40-45k/ 8 years/ 120 sailing days? That is NOT bang for the buck at ALL! 120 sailing days per year maybe, but still thats' a TON of money to spend on a 17' boat...

But the other points are well made. Trailerables are great - to be sail many different places, no paying marina robbery (unless you just want to,) it can be parked next to your garage for free and- even better - no maintenance needs or costs arise during the non-use periods, unlike when it's kept in the water. And you can do the maintenance yourself... (as you should if you are a real sailor...)

#40 mustang__1

mustang__1

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,964 posts
  • Location:Philly, by way of Sarasota and Newport...

Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:23 AM

in the last two weeks i have spent within 90% of my boat's value on entry fee, sails, and misc. parts. for a 14ft boat. nearly 2grand for a jib and kite alone. Im well aware of what sails cost for keelboats, but goddamn, i've seen panties falling off beached whales at walmart bigger than my jib!

#41 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,676 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:49 AM


One of the truely great things about sailing is how "scalable" it is. If your flush, you can go big and buy that new racer and go to Key West or do the circuit in the Caribbean. If you not, you can buy a $3k PHRF "C" boat and do your local beer can series. You can have almost as much fun doing either with the right attitude.

But the original post is quite true. You're only here for a few relatively short years, and you really can't take it with you. And who can predict how life can suddenly change? Get run over by a bus, or be on the top floor of the World Trade Center on the wrong day. Spend you time (and yes, your money to some degree once your obligations are covered) doing things that allow you and your family and/or good friends to be with each other and enjoy each other...cause our time here just doesn't last all that long

So you missed the part about ongoing costs vs boat purchase cost. The "buy it now?" article misrepresents the point by talking only about the upfront cost of a boat - written by someone who's having trouble selling an Alerion 33 for $238K. Could be seen as disingenuous salesmanship...

And I've never bought the life is short argument, it sounds nice but you balance the now with the future in life, including managing your money. Odds are so remote that you'll get run over by a bus or be in a World Trade Center event, you have to plan for what's most likely...YMMV


Mid,
Having owned 6 boats starting with a J/24 when I was 27, "cresting" with a J/109 when I was 42, and leveling back out with a S2 9.1 now that I'm 53 and have 3 kids in college, I get that its the ownership cost that really gets you. But that's as scalable as the purchase cost, and can be tempered by ambition and adjusting your goals. You don't have to buy new sails every year as long as you are happy with the fact that your out racing and having fun, even if it means you're not on the podium as much. Or you can buy a smaller boat so you can afford newer gear more often for the same amount of annual outlay.

But after a 20 career in Naval Aviation, I will tell you life can be much shorter than you planned. Some were aircraft accidents, some where cancer, one was on the space shuttle, one was riding a jet ski, one was in the Pentagon, etc. Yea the odds are none of those things will happen to you. But if you get suddenly unlucky, I'll bet your family would rather have spent the time (and money) with you then they would want a bunch of extra cash...or whatever is left after Uncle Sam takes his bite.

I'm not saying go waste all your money on a boat. Or buy the most expensive one you can afford. I am saying you can't take it with you and 100 years is not a long time. So spend it wisely on the things that matter most...

#42 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,635 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:08 PM

...
Life is short? That works for those of us who didn't buy a bunch of "stuff" when we were younger and therefore saved and scrimped...and now can afford it. But just because one can afford it, doesn't mean they should do it!
...


Well, life -IS- short. It only seems long if tedious... if tedious, you're doing it wrong!

There's also a wide range of definitions for "being able to afford it." One definition is, 'somebody will loan me the money to do it.'

Personally, I find it a bit distasteful to see a seller try to encourage others to put themselves in hock for what is basically a toy. As a culture, Americans seem to have lost their skepticism of advertising and eagerly embrace the mall+credit card estimation of self-worth. To talk of cashing in investments, because their return is doubful and the expensive toy will be a lot more rewarding, is not only destructive but not likely to attract any customers because so few Americans have managed to save up any significant amount of money.

Maybe better times are coming, there are statistics that people are saving again and a return to fiscal sanity by the majority (or even a sizeable minority) can't be bad. I think most people still realize that spending on recreation can/should be budgeted, and while very few will be able to afford $100k+ toys there will be a lot who can afford $10k ones, even if it costs a couple grand a year to use it. I mean, you can't sit home & watch TV for free.

There may be a dip in the buyers market thanks to H.Sandy, too. If 70,000 boats were totalled, and a large percentage of them will be getting replaced, does that mean anything?

FB- Doug

#43 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,255 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:17 PM

Personally, I find it a bit distasteful to see a seller try to encourage others to put themselves in hock for what is basically a toy. As a culture, Americans seem to have lost their skepticism of advertising and eagerly embrace the mall+credit card estimation of self-worth. To talk of cashing in investments, because their return is doubful and the expensive toy will be a lot more rewarding, is not only destructive but not likely to attract any customers because so few Americans have managed to save up any significant amount of money.

Thanks, that was basically my POV, only you've stated it more directly. Frankly I was surprised that SA would publish something like that on the front page, authored by someone with a $238K Alerion 33 for sale in the classifieds... <_<

#44 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 834 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:53 PM

Now that we got that resolved, who designed the AE33? Carl Schumacher designed the 28 and the hull of the 38 (too bad they put the daysailer rig and cockpit on it), but the 33 came out later. If Carl had designed the 33 and it was $100k - $125k cheaper, I'd take a closer look.

#45 FRENZY

FRENZY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:04 PM

When I purchased my current boat a Pearson (a very good deal) I offered a co worker and fellow sailor 50% ownership for him and his wife for $100. They love the boat and sail more often than I do but he still flat out refused the partnership.
Another co-worker was curious and asked why I would offer someone a partnership for $100 on a boat that I just paid tens of thousands for. He had no clue on the time and money commitment involved in even owning a midsized 1981 sailboat.

Even without racing the boat yearly costs for winter storage and Lake Michigan Mooring exceed $4000 per year, add countless trips to west marine and ebay finds and your up another $3k per year. 100 hours in the spring to get the boat ready for the water, another 40-50 in the fall.
Chicago has a short sailing season but you write checks all year long. The last time I figured it out it's about $1000 per weekend of actual use not including the depreciation of the boat.

I still need to calculate if the wife's yearly shoe budget exceeds the yearly sailboat budget, I wonder....

FRENZY

#46 phillysailor

phillysailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 372 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:40 PM

Received some pushback for the $40-45K for 8 years... kind of surprised, really. I could sell the boat for $15K, so lets make it $30K but remember I still have probably $8K of value in gear, so make that $22K pure "expense" to enjoy 120 days sailing.

What did you spend on fuel last year? I was including tow vehicle gas to and from my sailing locations (entire Eastern seaboard); add your on-the-water usage if your boat has an auxiliary.

What do you spend on lifejackets? Flares? Radios? GPS? Food? Entry fees? Sails, charts, lines, knife, rigging, tools, lost winch handle, cleaning products, insurance, registration and taxes, oil, filters, ALL of it? Don't forget travel and hotel.

If you are spending less than $2000 per year in all those areas you are exceptionally frugal, not racing, or you are forgetting the drysuit, the gloves, the flight to SF you took, etc.

If you are honest about accounting, this is an expensive sport, but so what?

And hey, if you can get in 120 days of sailing per year, my hat is off to you! I may have low-balled my time on the water, I'd have to think about that. I've not sailed as much the last two years as I did in years before (blame the babies), but it may have been more like 25 days per year over the entire time.

#47 Jangles13

Jangles13

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 705 posts
  • Location:Maine

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

Over the past 8 years, I've worked out my budget for sailing to be ranging $150-200 per on-the-water-day not including initial purchase. That's with some years at 10 days and limited new gear, as well as 30 days a year with big purchases. 26fter, I do my own everything from hauling (trailer), storage (home), bottom work, outboard motor(2) and mooring maintenance, etc. I'm including the gas to get to the boat, but not the food as I would be eating regardless...

#48 voodoochile

voodoochile

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 230 posts
  • Location:Hampton, Va

Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:09 PM

My first 2 boats were a stretch financially and ultimately my crew pitched in annually 400-500 each (5 crew) and we called it the "health club"...mental health, that is. It didn't cover the full cost, but it sure helped. Some years later 2 of the crew volunteered to join the "club" and we became a threesome on expenses and moved up to a bigger boat. Damn what a help! Think about it. Health clubs cost $500-600 plus, counseling is 70-100 per session. When we get on the boat, turn off the phones, let loose the dock line....true mental health! And now I get all that for 1/3 the cost! SERENITY NOW!

#49 boatsmith

boatsmith

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:51 PM

Boats are so fucking cool.



#50 MoMP

MoMP

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,921 posts
  • Location:Boston, USA

Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:02 AM

@ MoMP: Norseboat 17.5 which (after shipping, taxes, trailer, reg) was about $25K I got a few of the nicer options (two rowing stations, full cover, bimini, three sails and then a storm jib besides. I've installed a Raymarine autopilot and most recently fitted her out as a poor-man's cutter rig and replaced the cover with a Sunbrella beauty after the original ripped three times too many during transport. Sad to say, I broke her mast last year (CF - expensive to replace).

Of note, I was including estimated hotel / B&amp;B / campsite costs, food, some of the fuel, maintenance (trailer, too), repairs and upgrades in the $40-45K quote, as well as insurance, lifejackets, GPS, safety equipt, new lines. I was actually trying to estimate just how much I'd been spending. Most likely still on the low side.

If you are starting with a $10K boat, and are able to overnight on her, cook if need be then we have comparable craft, but I'll bet that if you add up your actual costs as I've done you'll come close to (or exceed) my $15-20K budget over 8 years. Sun and rain are evil, and will lead to maintenance; I'm garage kept 100% of non-sailing time, so my maintenance may actually be less? Plus, you'll always need new lifejackets, clothing, nav stuff, charts. It quickly adds up. But much less quickly than on a 45 footer kept in a marina!


I wasn't questioning how you spend your money. The number over time seemed high for a small boat. As I speculated, the upfront purchase price was high and your accounting seems to cover all aspects of life while you're sailing. Good for you. My kit is pretty complete and most carriesmyear over year; life jackets, foulies, charts, safety (other than what expires)' etc. My racing on it is limited to Wed nights and a couple of chance races then all day sailing with the family. I also race on a larger boat regularly.

This year, I'll spend $1200.00ish for YC dues, $250.00 mooring service, $300.00 for standing rigging $100.00 bottom paint and another say $250.00 for things I'm forgetting. $2200ish.

#51 Savage 17

Savage 17

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 938 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:04 AM

I try not to add it up because it just makes me cry :(......

Just a hole in the water that I throw money at!!!

#52 Trendsetter

Trendsetter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,801 posts
  • Location:Annapolis

Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:06 AM

SO i am amazed it hasnt been asked yet, What is pat going to get next, each of the four boats have been better then the last? And the charter business seems to be doing well...

#53 Ultraman

Ultraman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 381 posts
  • Location:Vancouver

Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:45 AM

In 4 years of ownership, I have spent a little over $80K racing an Olson 30 on top of the boat purchase price of $10K. Against advice, I kept all the receipts.

We sailed just over 100 race days (I don't include deliveries/daysails) .

The $80K includes ~$15K of Sailing Gear I would keep when I sell. Operating expenses were ~$30K (~$7-8K/year) including mooring, membership, entries, beer, food, etc. I have put ~$35K into the boat in sails, maintenance, repairs, bottom jobs, parts, instruments, etc. that would stay with the boat.

Would probably end up selling the boat for the $10K I bought it for - would hope for more - but its still a 30 year old 30 footer.

Works out to over $800 every time we untie the boat from the dock. Could reduce the costs a bit, but can't see racing the boat for much less.

Worth every penny though...

#54 Tucky

Tucky

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,553 posts
  • Location:Maine

Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:42 PM

Works out to over $800 every time we untie the boat from the dock. Could reduce the costs a bit, but can't see racing the boat for much less.

Worth every penny though...


And there you have it. I like the health club bit to.

In my case, sailing is a religion, meaning (in all sincerity) it is as close as I get to God. Light breeze at dawn, boat moving smoothly over the water as light begins to fill in around the stars and soft glow of the instruments- Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder gently playing the choir, and I'm in the moment feeling blessed.

So yeah, I tithe for my religion- 10% and it is money well spent. Even on a Sunday in January when I'm grinding something, I feel blessed. Sailboats are so fucking great.

#55 micha571

micha571

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 216 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:01 PM


Works out to over $800 every time we untie the boat from the dock. Could reduce the costs a bit, but can't see racing the boat for much less.

Worth every penny though...


And there you have it. I like the health club bit to.

In my case, sailing is a religion, meaning (in all sincerity) it is as close as I get to God. Light breeze at dawn, boat moving smoothly over the water as light begins to fill in around the stars and soft glow of the instruments- Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder gently playing the choir, and I'm in the moment feeling blessed.

So yeah, I tithe for my religion- 10% and it is money well spent. Even on a Sunday in January when I'm grinding something, I feel blessed. Sailboats are so fucking great.


+1

#56 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,255 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

SO i am amazed it hasnt been asked yet, What is pat going to get next, each of the four boats have been better then the last? And the charter business seems to be doing well...

Not specific, but from the owner on another recent thread.

I plan on expanding the business some more by offering overnight trips to nearby ports in 2013. That will necessitate more of a cruising boat so I have the 2010 Alerion Express up for sale on Yacht World.



#57 Mung Breath

Mung Breath

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts
  • Location:Connecticut
  • Interests:Balance in Life

Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:23 PM


Works out to over $800 every time we untie the boat from the dock. Could reduce the costs a bit, but can't see racing the boat for much less.

Worth every penny though...


And there you have it. I like the health club bit to.

In my case, sailing is a religion, meaning (in all sincerity) it is as close as I get to God. Light breeze at dawn, boat moving smoothly over the water as light begins to fill in around the stars and soft glow of the instruments- Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder gently playing the choir, and I'm in the moment feeling blessed.

So yeah, I tithe for my religion- 10% and it is money well spent. Even on a Sunday in January when I'm grinding something, I feel blessed. Sailboats are so fucking great.


Amen, Brother.

On an overnight sail with my family last summer, my 4.5 year old son draged his sleeping bag up the companionway and asked if he could sleep in the cockpit while I sail us to Newport. 'Of course!", I tell him. He then looked up into the sky and said, "Daddy! Look at all those stars!". I responded, "yeeees, son, aren't they beautiful!?". He replies, "Daddy! look at our sail going through the stars! It's like we're sailing through the universe!" GOOSE BUMPS...my 4.5 year old just spoke the meaning of life.

Choked up and smiling from ear to ear, I responded, "Son, I've been sailing my entire life for that reason and you are the only family member or even close friend that 'get's it'." At that moment, I knew that my 4.5 year old son has a soul and I don't need to worry about him.

#58 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,255 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

On an overnight sail with my family last summer, my 4.5 year old son draged his sleeping bag up the companionway and asked if he could sleep in the cockpit while I sail us to Newport. 'Of course!", I tell him. He then looked up into the sky and said, "Daddy! Look at all those stars!". I responded, "yeeees, son, aren't they beautiful!?". He replies, "Daddy! look at our sail going through the stars! It's like we're sailing through the universe!" GOOSE BUMPS...my 4.5 year old just spoke the meaning of life.

Choked up and smiling from ear to ear, I responded, "Son, I've been sailing my entire life for that reason and you are the only family member or even close friend that 'get's it'." At that moment, I knew that my 4.5 year old son has a soul and I don't need to worry about him.

Now that's a great story.

There aren't many things better than a warm, moderately breezy night sail with the blankets of stars, shooting stars, a full moonrise and/or (best of all) northern lights. Magical...

#59 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,663 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

All hobbies cost money. Even the simplest sport in the world, running, costs money. Shoes, cold weather gear, race entry fees and travel expenses.

Yes it is not smart to spend all your money and live paycheck to paycheck but spend some on the activities you enjoy. Certainly sailing is not a cheap sport but neither is golf! Personally I don’t add up what I spend on sailing.

“I have never seen the Brinks truck following the hearse.” Yes you can use my quote but give me credit because I think it is a Hobie Dog original! :D

#60 TheFlash

TheFlash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,733 posts
  • Location:San Francisco Bay
  • Interests:Rum

Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

great thread, loved the 4 year old kid looking at the stars. I think for me it isn't really a $ issue, although that's quantifiable. Its the fact that, through no fault but my own, my kids are so scheduled there is no time…. I think this is all to common based on chats with others who have kids in elementary school.

#61 Mung Breath

Mung Breath

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts
  • Location:Connecticut
  • Interests:Balance in Life

Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:53 PM

great thread, loved the 4 year old kid looking at the stars. I think for me it isn't really a $ issue, although that's quantifiable. Its the fact that, through no fault but my own, my kids are so scheduled there is no time…. I think this is all to common based on chats with others who have kids in elementary school.


Mine are 9,7 almost 5. Over-scheduling is chronic. One of my biggest goals with boat ownership is to 'pay it forward', to have my kids experience sailing as a metaphor for life. But if I added up the cost of that education, it would be mid-boggling...Yale looks cheap. But that isn't the point, is it.

#62 One eye Jack

One eye Jack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts
  • Location:Reno,Nv. San Francisco Bay , Santa Cruz,Ca. Tahoe,Nv
  • Interests:Sailing. I shot a man in Reno.. Just to watch him die..

Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:07 PM

Here everybody has a budget for the boat. The question is.. Just how bad do you want to go sailing? Sailing is like a drug addiction, you do it, don't care how to pay for it, and worry about it later. If there is a will.. There will be a way. Yeah it's expensive, but so is that car, that you never drive. Don't forget you can't take it with you when you go to that big boat in the sky. So now the next question is, where will you be on race day?

#63 Greyhawk

Greyhawk

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,586 posts
  • Location:New Hampshire / Maine
  • Interests:cruising and racing on the Gulf of Maine and beyond

Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:07 PM



Works out to over $800 every time we untie the boat from the dock. Could reduce the costs a bit, but can't see racing the boat for much less.

Worth every penny though...


And there you have it. I like the health club bit to.

In my case, sailing is a religion, meaning (in all sincerity) it is as close as I get to God. Light breeze at dawn, boat moving smoothly over the water as light begins to fill in around the stars and soft glow of the instruments- Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder gently playing the choir, and I'm in the moment feeling blessed.

So yeah, I tithe for my religion- 10% and it is money well spent. Even on a Sunday in January when I'm grinding something, I feel blessed. Sailboats are so fucking great.


Amen, Brother.

On an overnight sail with my family last summer, my 4.5 year old son draged his sleeping bag up the companionway and asked if he could sleep in the cockpit while I sail us to Newport. 'Of course!", I tell him. He then looked up into the sky and said, "Daddy! Look at all those stars!". I responded, "yeeees, son, aren't they beautiful!?". He replies, "Daddy! look at our sail going through the stars! It's like we're sailing through the universe!" GOOSE BUMPS...my 4.5 year old just spoke the meaning of life.

Choked up and smiling from ear to ear, I responded, "Son, I've been sailing my entire life for that reason and you are the only family member or even close friend that 'get's it'." At that moment, I knew that my 4.5 year old son has a soul and I don't need to worry about him.


My 14-year old son and I did an overnight race this summer. The winds were rather light (Tucky might remember). Going into the wee hours of the morning we had been battling it out with another boat for several hours. I curled up on the cockpit sole to take a nap, and when I woke up an hour or so later, I looked up in the pre-dawn light at my son on the tiller, who was just beaming at me with an ear-to-ear grin. The breeze had picked up a knot or two, and he said, "we're sailing now, and I passed that boat!"

~$10K/year to keep an old 34-foot boat on the water.

Moments like that? Priceless!



(As has been said about sailing before, If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it -- so don't ask!)

#64 Mung Breath

Mung Breath

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts
  • Location:Connecticut
  • Interests:Balance in Life

Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

Have to share this.

In today's mail, a plain manilla envelope arrives from my 'new' boatyard. It's thick and heavy. Uh-oh. Reason for leaving the last one after a 1-yr. trial was among other things, a tendency to issue 'boilerplate' invoices that included work I performed myself. Nickled and dimed for my own labor. So this envelope was presumably for decommissioning charges...and anything else they could dream up, not a good omen. Just to remind myself how cynical I've become I open it....and received a nice, 2013 calendar from them. ..no invoice.

I had to laugh. The big bomb will probably come tomorrow. :)

#65 jww

jww

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 329 posts
  • Location:lake erie,
  • Interests:racing

Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:53 PM




Works out to over $800 every time we untie the boat from the dock. Could reduce the costs a bit, but can't see racing the boat for much less.

Worth every penny though...


And there you have it. I like the health club bit to.

In my case, sailing is a religion, meaning (in all sincerity) it is as close as I get to God. Light breeze at dawn, boat moving smoothly over the water as light begins to fill in around the stars and soft glow of the instruments- Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder gently playing the choir, and I'm in the moment feeling blessed.

So yeah, I tithe for my religion- 10% and it is money well spent. Even on a Sunday in January when I'm grinding something, I feel blessed. Sailboats are so fucking great.


Amen, Brother.

On an overnight sail with my family last summer, my 4.5 year old son draged his sleeping bag up the companionway and asked if he could sleep in the cockpit while I sail us to Newport. 'Of course!", I tell him. He then looked up into the sky and said, "Daddy! Look at all those stars!". I responded, "yeeees, son, aren't they beautiful!?". He replies, "Daddy! look at our sail going through the stars! It's like we're sailing through the universe!" GOOSE BUMPS...my 4.5 year old just spoke the meaning of life.

Choked up and smiling from ear to ear, I responded, "Son, I've been sailing my entire life for that reason and you are the only family member or even close friend that 'get's it'." At that moment, I knew that my 4.5 year old son has a soul and I don't need to worry about him.


My 14-year old son and I did an overnight race this summer. The winds were rather light (Tucky might remember). Going into the wee hours of the morning we had been battling it out with another boat for several hours. I curled up on the cockpit sole to take a nap, and when I woke up an hour or so later, I looked up in the pre-dawn light at my son on the tiller, who was just beaming at me with an ear-to-ear grin. The breeze had picked up a knot or two, and he said, "we're sailing now, and I passed that boat!"

~$10K/year to keep an old 34-foot boat on the water.

Moments like that? Priceless!



(As has been said about sailing before, If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it -- so don't ask!)

While my daughters did sailing camps,junior olympics,regionals,etc.... they never raced with me as young girls or teenagers.Now that they have finished college and on their own life has come full circle.Bought a Soverel 33 late this Summer and they couldn't wait to go out and race.We are just racing a few selected races but it's such a great feeling that they wanted to come back and be part of the program.My wife and I are thrilled.

#66 Walrus

Walrus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 578 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:01 PM

Fucking retards, Commodore Vanderbilt gave you the definitive answer decades ago : "If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it!"

Yes, there are some real bargains out there, a friened just picked up a 49 foot Jenneau something that was three years old, hardly used and with every sail, bell and whistle on it right down to the tender and outboard for a little over $300,000. We think that is between Half and One Third of new price.

On the other hand, there are some real shitters out there as well - boats that have been tricked up, maybe with a new Galley, that are simply dogs.

Then of course for those of you stupid fuckers who want to race, you can buy a TP52 for less than the original cost of the rig.

...which I accurately foresaw in 2008 .... http://forums.sailin...showtopic=68489

#67 Mung Breath

Mung Breath

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts
  • Location:Connecticut
  • Interests:Balance in Life

Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:45 PM

Normally, I find that the cost of annual ownership of a toy is say, 10% of it's purchase price. Pay $50k for a new car, expect to pay $5k in upkeep. Trick is to apply that formula to the purchase price of the asset when 'new', not the great deal you got 'used'. So if someone pays $200k for a $750k boat (new price in 2002), the upkeep is still $75k/yr., not $20k/yr. That 'correct' number is then bumped by the 'racing multiplier' and predictable depreciation/replacement of gear. Pay now or pay later.

IMHO, too many people walk in the door thinking about price and not cost, only to be shocked later.

#68 Tucky

Tucky

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,553 posts
  • Location:Maine

Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:49 PM

Mung, I've loved that story since you first told it, and Greyhawk, there isn't much finer than a Monhegan full moon and that pleasure when the boat finally starts moving again.
I had my first cruise with the four year old grandson last year and we never left the mooring- he is already asking if next year we can spend two nights.

It's my religion, and I'm going to do my best to teach him to pray.

#69 jim lee

jim lee

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 877 posts
  • Location:Anacortes, WA

Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:56 AM

It was actually one of these, Craig----fun to sail, rowed like a dream, stable as hell and heavier than shit....


Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image


Anacortes High school has a set of molds for that boat. Free to any that want them.

-jim lee

#70 PATSYQPATSY

PATSYQPATSY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 281 posts
  • Location:Maryland
  • Interests:everything

Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:14 AM

Value is not a universally accepted constant.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users