125 replies to this topic

[postpast]

I think this design is very interesting. I think that the design may work better on a bigger boat; at even 55' the deck would be wide enough to be more practical and the "old ship" design clues may seem more at home.

[JumpingJax]

Boy I'm glad that this forum isn't for clothing designers, or automobile designers. There you have thousands of new clothing and automobiles designed, and made , but just for one or two trade shows, and never will hit the stores or the dealerships. If one can't use their imagination..that is a new word for some of you. Imagination.. That is where one gets an idea, puts it on paper, and maybe gets built, maybe one, maybe millions. Do you think that computer that Mr. Hewlitt and Mr. Packard thought up, was ever the original basis of what we had after they built the first one? Or ever heard of TYLin? He is gone now, but he had an unbelievable imagination. He was a bridge engineer/ designer. The new span of the San Francisco Bay bridge was one of his. Nobody has ever done this design before. TY Lin also on paper, has a bridge to span the gap between the Aleutians and Russia. Also spanning the gap between Africa and Gibralter. Will they ever happen? Maybe, are they far fetched? You betcha. But with out imagination , you are nothing but a mind numbed robot.
This guy has an imagination also, and has put something that he thought up on paper, just like I bet Bob Perry has one or two in his archives of some off the wall boat, to join the list of his many successes. Just like any of the yacht designers that I have had the pleasure to know.Bill Lee, George Olson, Ron Moore had an imagination to build a boat that everybody thought was a death warrant. But they succeeded. Even Noah had an imagination on how to build an Ark, even with the measurements told to him.
So why don't you just give this guy a break. I know he didn't give us any tits, but they would still be nice.. But think in a positive way and use a little imagination of your own on something that is far fetched, unusual design. Because with out these navel architects imagination. ,you would still be in that hollowed out log. And that was built with some bodies imagination.
If you ever go to China, when ever there is a major building tobe built, the builders will have a world wide contest for designing t he building. They have some buildings that are questionable how they stand up. Look at the CCN building in Beijing. I still am waiting for it to fall over. Imagination.
And Robert B don't give up your imagination. One day one will be built and blow everything else out of the water. Just like Merlin did on the west coast. Putting an Imagination and your ideas on paper.. With out them, where would WE be?

Noah had a very specific design brief. And he dsigned and built to meet those specific customer requirements. Right, Lord? Right?

Bill Lee, George Olson, Ron Moore and Bob Perry all designed boats which were derivative of those who went before, to a very specific design brief in each case. And in each case, they designed for customers they expected to be out there to appreciate their work, not to impose thier personal vision of perfection. And they succeeded very nicely without the wild-eyed arrogance and holier-than-thou hubris exhibited here by Robert.

Sadly, Robert has yet to define a coherent design brief or to discuss the substance of the issues he came here to solicit. He denies the legitimacy of issues posed by those of us who have taken the time and trouble to comment substantively on his effort and deems his creation "perfect." Of all the arrogant yacht designers over the years, none that I have ever heard of ever declared their designs - any of them - to be "perfect." Well, Bob Derecktor came pretty close a few times, but .....

No one here wants to stifle Robert's imagination or dull his creativity. On the other hand, if we can focus his efforts on the real world, there is a much better chance for his genius to flower. After all, the world has accepted I.M. Pei and Salvadore Dali and some have even accepted Lady Gaga. The world has not entirely turned it's back on creativity. There's hope for Robert, but not quite as he is, I suspect. "A man's gotta know his own limitations."

[fastyacht]

This is very "superyachty."

[Large Thomas]

Jack,
I support his imagination, otherwise I would long have shut up. Claiming that he is perfect, though, without taking into account almost any of the - I believe from the depth of my honest heart - sensible input based on sound engineering considerations, experience of the ones who came before us, and study of all kinds of craft, may they swim (or having been supposed to swim), fly, or drive on the hard, is a far reach, and one that beckons the question of why ask for "thoughts" in the first place.

Robert claims of his design that "the body of the boat is perfect in proportion to the assumed value of it", and he may be right in exactly one way: That this is exactly how he wanted his design to look like. But all of us who spend a significant amount of their daily lives with their minds on boats in whichever form, and have even had the slightest brush with the engineering side of it, know that looks isn't what defines a "good" or even a sensible design. I'm not saying that a "good" design is forcibly ugly. I'd be damned if it was! But neither a good nor a sensible design can - or should be - impervious to critique.

That being said, Robert, keep bringing your ideas to paper, then think them over, and over, and over, forget about them, and rediscover them. Improve them - because they never are perfect - and consider input from outside. Sitting in front of your drawing board you get likely stuck in those ideas of yours, and that may not at all be to your advantage. Never forget that what you - as the artist - design, will have to be translated into reality by engineers and finally boatbuilders who are indeed very much bound by the possibilities - and sensibilities - of actual, earth- and waterbound designs and structures.

[ssi]

Don't give up your day job.

Dointe be meane! Butte seriesly... I thick the bigge holle in backe wille lette allotte of water in. :)/>

Snagy got neuw sox?

Oh no! Peter Smith demonstrating complete dominance of the sock puppet market!

[Robert B]

OK.
So I have to start with something ... I was lucky that my actions are supported by two Polish shipyards. I have no hope for mass production, I hope a few people who want to have a unique yacht and want me to build it for them. The project is checked for maritime and in terms of the provisions for CE certification. A boat is not designed cheaply, is also seen. Seldom is what custom is cheap.


Thank you for all the comments ... and, of course, do not close the discussion ...

[JumpingJax]

OK.
So I have to start with something ... I was lucky that my actions are supported by two Polish shipyards. I have no hope for mass production, I hope a few people who want to have a unique yacht and want me to build it for them. The project is checked for maritime and in terms of the provisions for CE certification. A boat is not designed cheaply, is also seen. Seldom is what custom is cheap.


Thank you for all the comments ... and, of course, do not close the discussion ...

Okay, you want to start with something. How about this:

• You've come up with a design concept and developed into the rendering you posted here and on your web site. You've asked us for comment. That a good start, but it isn't nearly enough. Keep going as below.
• You've gotten a number of comments and inquiries about your design. If you want your start to mean something, respond with something more substantive than defensiveness.
• Try explanations of your thinking and reasoning for your design choices.
• Be open to the possibility that those here have enough sailing experience, boat buying experience, and, in a few cases, designing and building experience to offer constructive criticism of your design and try to understand their points of view. (Unless you're trying to make your posts here mere promotional material, getting and coming to grips with constructive feedback should be why you're here.)

What all this comes down to is a dialog, not evasive, self-agrandizing defensiveness. Engage with the issues. For example, it means very little to anyone on SA that your design is "certified" since most are aware that the process a design goes through is for bureaucratic checking boxes on a form: Do you have lifelines and stanchions? Yes? Well, then, moving along to the next item, .... Here, prople are more inclined to look at the awkward shape of your stanchions and ask themselves how much they would hate having to mover around on your deck with those sharp edges and corners to avoid. Certified or not, they aren't a good idea.

You hope for a few people who want to have a unique yacht and want you to build it for them. What do you propose to tell them when they ask the same questions we are asking here? If you give the same sorts of responses you have given here, the checkbooks will remian in their pockets and you will face building your design on spec, not for a buyer. Or - given the costs - never seeing your design built at all.

You've gotten a lot of good advice here, from sailing crew, owners, builders and designers - established and successful designers, mind you, whether your understand that or not - and so far you've been quite arrogant and blown everyone's efforts off. That leaves you with your string just about played out: most are at the point of telling you "My dog pisses on your shoe!" You've wasted the resource and we've wasted our time and our breath. It's time to piss off. I'm out.

[Bob Perry]

Robert:
I wish you all the best with your project.
Do not underestimate the wealth of knowledge and willingness to help here on SA. I turn to SA regularily for design help and I get it. 120 FT10m's is proof of the validity of what you can learn on SA.
When you work by yourself as I do it's important to have a group of critics available who won't BS you.

Merry Christmas.

[Robert B]

No. and I did not want to be arrogant ... I do not deny plea for sharp edges ... On the allegations that have no evidence base to answer the same level. I do not know who I have the opportunity to talk. I only know that I am dealing with stupid statements again another time wise. If you are wise not deny, stupid or just malicious deny. I am not a whipping boy. I am an engineer. Ergonomics specialist architect. In Poland, the study ends at the technical University. I have the courage to introduce myself. None of you have the courage. I see only stupid or wise sayings. JumpingJax, do not be offended. No one is offended. I know the value of my ideas and I am aware of my fallibility. I do not agree that my idea is a dead end. At least one does not blindly copy the. Today's tourist boats are copies often bezmyślyni sports yachts. Nobody thinks about it that sprotrowe yachts are designed so that they are quick with (this is important) behavior measurement's rules. measurement rules have nothing to do with the beauty and tourism.

[fastyacht]

What is totally missing here is that Polish is the 2nd hardest language for English-speakers to learn, after Chinese. Seriously.

And English is really weird for Poles. Poles have full case structure, endings of all the nouns and verbs and adjectives all have to agree. Don't try to do numbers in Polish if you don't want to be found out! You'll never manage to say 1957 correctly!

Going the other way, Polish doesn't have articles. That's right. They don't say "the" or "a".

I don't see arrogance in Robert. I hear a Polish speaker working really hard to say what he means, but in English. If you knew Polish, you'd probably find him, warm, engaging, and even a bit humble.

Lost in translation.

[Robert B]

Bob Perry

thank you, I would like to see your projects. Can you send me a link to a personal e-mail ... bednarczyk.r @ wp.pl
Thank you.

I wish your dreams come true in the New Year and Christmas.

Robert Bednarczyk
tel: +48 518 707 066
bednarczyk.r @ wp.pl
www.brj-design.com

[Shibby]

It looks like a Hunter NTTIAWWT

[Shibby]

perfezione

[Robert B]

Wally ... Esence .... Perfect ....
I wonder what he would do with the ocean with him ...
I wonder how comfortable is the helmsman? I wonder where you sit?
But worth it....

thank you ...
I think that language differences may exacerbate conflicts ... I do not want to offend anyone or anyone's pride ... I'm sorry ...

[JohnMB]

Bob Perry

thank you, I would like to see your projects. Can you send me a link to a personal e-mail ... bednarczyk.r @ wp.pl
Thank you.

I wish your dreams come true in the New Year and Christmas.

Robert Bednarczyk
tel: +48 518 707 066
bednarczyk.r @ wp.pl
www.brj-design.com

seriously?

There's a link in his signature
http://www.sailfeed.com/bob-perry

and then there's this

http://www.perryboat.com/

[Oxygen Mask]

If you ever go to China, when ever there is a major building tobe built, the builders will have a world wide contest for designing t he building. They have some buildings that are questionable how they stand up. Look at the CCN building in Beijing. I still am waiting for it to fall over. Imagination.

and the news has also been full of stories about these buildings (and other major structures) falling down, tipping over, or burning to the ground under conditions that should not have been destructive. Sometimes, 'traditional' cautions (or minimum building codes) exist for good reason...

[Large Thomas]

I don't see arrogance in Robert. I hear a Polish speaker working really hard to say what he means, but in English. If you knew Polish, you'd probably find him, warm, engaging, and even a bit humble.

Lost in translation.

Having learnt a small bit of Polish myself and being able to read some of it I guess I must then be completely mistaken, and claims to perfection of his design and constant ignorance of suggestions must really actually be warm banter about how he is thinking to improve them. You're absolutely right, he's indeed even a bit humble, I have yet to read the word "best" from him.

[Large Thomas]

Wally ... Esence .... Perfect ....
I wonder what he would do with the ocean with him ...
I wonder how comfortable is the helmsman? I wonder where you sit?
But worth it....

thank you ...
I think that language differences may exacerbate conflicts ... I do not want to offend anyone or anyone's pride ... I'm sorry ...

Just to answer your questions.
Again, Esense is 43 meters long, and moves in the sea a lot different than a yacht a fourth of its size (your design) would, especially as Esense, compared to its length is incredibly low above the water in comparison to your design, which means that everyone on deck will experience pitch (and maybe heave) in the waves a lot less severely.

And I'm sure there's a lot of difficulties with language here. And it's not about offending us, or our pride, but rather us throwing our hands up over you being impervious to input and deflecting legitimate (and maybe, maybe even qualified) doubts in your design solutions.

[Bob Perry]

Robert:
My dreams are going to be tough to fulfill but thanks anyway for the wishes.

Attached Files

•  spike close up.jpg   255.21K   7 downloads

[JumpingJax]

No. and I did not want to be arrogant ... I do not deny plea for sharp edges ... On the allegations that have no evidence base to answer the same level. I do not know who I have the opportunity to talk. I only know that I am dealing with stupid statements again another time wise. If you are wise not deny, stupid or just malicious deny. I am not a whipping boy. I am an engineer. Ergonomics specialist architect. In Poland, the study ends at the technical University. I have the courage to introduce myself. None of you have the courage. I see only stupid or wise sayings. JumpingJax, do not be offended. No one is offended. I know the value of my ideas and I am aware of my fallibility. I do not agree that my idea is a dead end. At least one does not blindly copy the. Today's tourist boats are copies often bezmyślyni sports yachts. Nobody thinks about it that sprotrowe yachts are designed so that they are quick with (this is important) behavior measurement's rules. measurement rules have nothing to do with the beauty and tourism.

On the chance that some of the recent posters are correct that the problem is one of language, I'll take one more shot. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to consider finding someone more fluent in English to help you as it appears our messages are not getting through and if you are trying to be responsive, it isn't working.

On Sailing Anarchy, screen names are not a problem for Anarchists. Those who have good ideas, good experiences, good advice to offer soon show themselves. Those who are "stupid" or the like are quickly found out and ignored - or scorned. We all live with the anonymous exchanges without much problem. Some use their real names; others become known; still others remain unknown and sometimes quite mysterious, like Anarchist Snaggletooth. We mostly judge ideas on the merit of the idea, not on the stature of the poster and have little difficulty sorting out the good ideas from the bad ideas.

So now, at last, we see the semblance of a design brief, although rather cryptically put: You want a design outside the constraints of rating and measurement rules, and you want to design for beauty and "tourism." Check your dictionary. I rather think "tourism" isn't the idea you want to express. Perhaps "cruising" boats are what you have in mind, as contrasted with racing boats. Even then, your goals for the design are vague and incomplete. That has led many Anarchists to not offer substantive comments about your design because they can't know if your design meets some unknown objectives you have defined. Comments about design details have been made, including the comments about your stanchions and your aft "picture window." The Anarchists are limited to picking details to comment on because we have not been informed about your design concepts and objectives.

It does not help that a number of Anarchists have seen only the three renderings in your original post. Your web site is difficult to see, as it seems to live on the world's slowest internet server. I've linked to your site three times so far and gotten through once. Not your fault, but a constraint on communication nonetheless.

I am not offended. I am frustrated at the lack of progress. As was famously said in an American movie, "What we've got here is failure to communicate." The Captain, Cool Hand Luke, 1967.

You've come here wanting to "... break the concrete among designers ...." and asking the Anarchists to comment on your design. We have done so. While a few have been rude about it, SA is a rough forum. If you don't care for rough, there are "touchy-feely" forum sites available where direct negative comments are discouraged and abusive posters are banned. Try http://www.cruisersforum.com/ for example, "Where seldom is heard a discouraging word, And the sky is not cloudy all day." We've done our part and, for the most part, we've made allowances for your language difficulties.

No one here has said your ideas are a dead end. Our problem has been that we don't know what your ideas are; they are not self-evident from your renderings. When we ask about your ideas, you have either not responded or you have filled us with nonsense about certification of your design. In context, it does not matter whether the difficulty is with language or your unwillingness to come to grips with the substance of our efforts. The end result is a null set and will likely remain so until something in your approach to this attempted dialog changes.

[Robert B]

Thank you for what you wrote about me ... thank you for all that you find on the willingness and time ... Thank you, because I see that the issue was raised of my project ...
It may be true too boldly walked into your company .... too confidently ... This may offend ..
Please accept my best wishes dreams come true, all of your personal and professional in the new year ... and a Christmas ...

[postpast]

Robert;

If you want to break concrete you shouldn't underestimate the value of persistence. It may take more then one blow to make an impact, the important part is that you keep on swinging

[blackjenner]

Yeah, it may not be your cup of tea but, how many boats have any of you designed?

They guy is putting something out there. Why be a dick at his expense?

And Robert, you should pay attention to the basic questions you are getting about your design. Try answering them.

[Robert B]

The project ... It must be so ... Must raise questions ... Otherwise it will be a knock instead of ... I know that the idea is right ... So that it moves ... I know the rules. stability, buoyancy, ballast factor, streamlined sailing ahead, the communication is correct. I'm not going to prove it curious. I know that what I presented to the visualization in any way that does not contradict the rules. This should not be so discussed. The sharp edges in the cockpit winch arrangement and flight instruments may cannot be correct. If something gets in Europe CE certificate. This means that it meets the requirements and is safe. For sure I do not have as much experience as some here. But the scale is different. Do not insist that my line is the only right way. I'm just saying that it is an interesting possibility. I propose a solution that does not re-discovering America. They are old and tried and forgotten.
benches for the shroud? You should be more or less hidden, as in the BRJ 33. Thank you for pointing out the fault. If this was an excellent project, there would be nothing to discuss ... I think it is unique because it aroused such emotion ... In Poland created many projects that we have a small boat very experienced in the experiments. That's why I do not want to discuss the theoretical lines. Łeglują beautifully containers such that wytaje impossible. They can not go in baydewind, so beautiful boats with classic lines is also amazing.

[Robert B]

What could I do to get my project anyone noticed? What should I do to get someone to notice me?

Are my ideas are right? I'm not saying that the only right one? Is my design is bad?
It is doomed to codification as almost everyone who is looking for a customer. When a customer finds it, design bend under his pressure. Bend enough to keep its character. Client who has decided, on this particular boat, choose this particular design.

[Robert B]

For enthusiastic "Wally Esens".
I do not sail without a full tank of oil - denies sailing.
Do not use sails without using a generator for oil - denies sailing.
Do not sit at the controls. - uncomfortable
when you sit in the cockpit, you do not see the world. - Side too high.
You can only watch the beautiful deck - is not that arrogance?

But someone is built. Someone paid for it. Everyone says I Enjoy a variety for sailing, for the design.