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What's Next? Concept Boat


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#1 Southern Cross

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:08 PM

I think that the quest for perfection in design and performance, as Mr Perry mentions in seaworthy thread, may lead to a creation that is at once magnificent and a little dull at the same time. When I watch a video of a 60+ year old couple (the Dashews) making a fruit salad while reaching at 27 knots on their 80 foot aluminum ketch making 300+ miles per day, it gives me a glimpse of things to come. And this was over ten years ago!

I got amped up on caffeine and got to thinking. Many features on a sailboat can be adjusted and modified for any given condition - switching up sails, reconfiguring sail plans, out hauls, cunninghams, back stays, boom vangs, sheets and now trimming ailerons on wings for optimal performance. Keels can be canted and ballast can be moved with water. Some masts telescope and some hulls are fitted to foils.

What hasn't changed so much is the ability of the shape of the hull to change. So far it seems to me it's one size fits all or one needs to come up with the best design for all possible points of sail or specific conditions. I think this could change.

At the Museum of Science in Los Angeles there is a kinetic sculpture made from thousands of pieces of aluminum. It's geometry expands and contracts using an electric motor. It closes to within perhaps twenty square feet and opens to ten times that size. See attached.

Could it be possible to create ribs and a spine like those on old wooden boats with a system like this made from ultra light carbon or some Nano material? Over this a Nano type skin could be fixed at certain points over this skeleton so that when the structure expands the skin would stretch and the tensile strength of the skin would increase until a hull shape is formed. Once taught, the skin would have the same or greater rigidity of a carbon hull...kind of like stretching a buckskin to make a canoe or a condom depending on which way you want to think about it. The mast would be attached to the spine and an inner water tight cabin could be shielded by this ballistic strong outer skin (like an oil tanker). The skin could be replaced periodically or as needed.

Initially, the frame would be able to morph into limited shapes based on predictable sea states and points of sail ie upwind in flat sea, surfing downwind in a heavy sea etc. maybe turning the bow up, narrowing the beam, widening the aft section, a chine or two etc. The electric motors would be governed by computers taking information from sophisticated weather, hydro dynamic and navigation systems. As these systems improve, changes in hull shape could take place more rapidly and on the fly. These changes would also take place in accordance with changes in wing shape (if that's what will be used) and trim, ballast, keels and/or foils. Of course, solar cell and wind generators and battery storage will be much improved, enough so to provide ample power. Maybe there will be one of those mini nuclear reactors on board, the ones that are being developed for home use.

In this way, I think a fully automated sailing vessel such as this may finally bring synergy between water and air, slipping atop the sea like a blade across ice. It's ability to make thousands of micro adjustments to every wave and wind shift would optimize performance more so than the best crew could ever hope to accomplish.

It sounds far fetched but drones are replacing manned fighter jets, Google is close to developing autonomous cars, nano materials are already being used, we can model any sea state and wind scenario in a computer already. Boats like the AC, Speed Dream, Hydroptere and Sail Rocket are incorporating these ideas already. The shift to foils and wings is inevitable, I think.

It also seems inevitable that many other systems will become automated. What percentage of the typical Vendee boat sail under auto pilot? AC crew talk about the dampening effect of foils, above the water, not crashing through it with walls of water pouring over the crew like V70's in the Southern Ocean. With little to no displacement from a hull, there is less done about sail changes. Wings are trimmed to counter loads. All this progression towards perfection, conquering the elements seems to be removing us from the picture or at least it is changing the description of what a sailor is. Will we become obsolete?

I romanticize the old days, rounding the horn in square rigs or boats like Suhaili, hanging on for dear life, tumbling down rogue waves... The Horn is no less a dangerous place but where it was once a place that was feared (yes I know it still is) it has now become a place of sport. Some day soon some nut will round it on a modified wind surfer or kiteboard. Carnival cruises will take retirees on joy rides in big luxurious multi hulls paying for the privilege like some do to go into space.

Picture a glorious mega yacht with great white wings hovering on foils powering at 60knts rounding the horn through monstrous seas, completely automated with two geriatrics, oblivious to the spectacle, reclining in the doghouse, eating fruit salad while watching reruns of Charmed.

Just an idea for the hell of it.

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#2 Rasputin22

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:31 PM

Like so?

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=kTYiEkQYhWY

#3 Southern Cross

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

Yes! Great video.

#4 Southern Cross

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:29 PM

Thinking in the case of the boat the skin would be intergalactic to the overall strength of the boat whereas in the car, the strength relies mainly on the frame.

#5 Southern Cross

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:39 PM

Stupid spell check. I meant integral not intergalactic!

#6 monsoon

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:00 PM

Thinking in the case of the boat the skin would be intergalactic to the overall strength of the boat whereas in the car, the strength relies mainly on the frame.


maybe try some glassfiber strengthened with epoxy as the skin!?! whoaaa!!!

#7 Southern Cross

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:02 PM

The resin dries. It doesn't stretch. It's rigid. It's static. It can't change. For example, stretch wetsuit material over your fingers. Then move your fingers to change the shape. Not that Neoprene is the kind of material I'm talking about. Neoprene loses tensil strength the more it is stretched.

#8 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:19 PM

Piezoelectric composite morphing control surfaces - Google it.

#9 Southern Cross

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

Amazing. Thank you.

#10 blackjenner

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:25 PM

I bet they can make a flexible graphene material one day that can do this.

#11 Bob Perry

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:37 PM

I much preferred "intergalactic". Hell I understood "intergalactic".

Making at 27 knots. Beware that Dashew is a bit of a snake oil salesman. I'd take that 27 knots with a very large grain, no,,,boulder of salt. He once told me he like 6 to 7 degrees of weather helm. He once told me he likes the ketch rig because it raises the VCG.

#12 Southern Cross

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:52 AM

Well, I've arrived. The Hon. Mr perry has replied to my thread. Does that bump me up from Newbie status?

#13 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:11 AM

I bet they can make a flexible graphene material one day that can do this.

Graphene tech has great potential, but the largest detractor has been heat in the pezioelectric, as well as power. One can see that none of these things are insurmountable, given time and money, but other factors play in too. Impact durability is a factor that readily comes to mind. Abrasion is another. External electric interference and ground, etc. However, how perfect would no rudders be. Perhaps a "malleable" keel system. A shifting hull bottom? Out of the box.

#14 Southern Cross

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:14 AM

Here's a twist on the same idea ... Taking it a step further.

http://www.boatdesig...oats-45661.html

#15 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:20 AM

Well, I've arrived. The Hon. Mr perry has replied to my thread. Does that bump me up from Newbie status?

Uuummmm, I'm guessing NO. Have you been properly greeted?

#16 Southern Cross

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:42 AM

Greeted? Does this involve picking up grapes from a block of ice with my bare buttocks?

#17 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:00 AM

I'll watch this thread with interest. And you can just call me Bob.

#18 corkob

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:09 AM

A boat with a morphing hull and fitted with a mini nuclear reactor like those being developed for home use???? WTF!! The North Koreans would love a fleet of those. Maybe they should try the reactors out in a 787 first.

#19 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:19 AM

Greeted? Does this involve picking up grapes from a block of ice with my bare buttocks?

No, but you seem to be well versed in the world of shenanigans.



#20 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:22 AM

A boat with a morphing hull and fitted with a mini nuclear reactor like those being developed for home use???? WTF!! The North Koreans would love a fleet of those. Maybe they should try the reactors out in a 787 first.

Yes, Orville and Wilbur dealt with that sentiment too.

...and their "wing warping" idea was totally jacked up.

#21 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:23 AM

...wait, was it?

#22 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:25 AM

Morphing hull?
Hey! I gotta run. I just put some socks in the oven.

#23 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:30 AM

Morphing hull?
Hey! I gotta run. I just put some socks in the oven.

Are they carbon fibre socks or has spring sprung in the PNW?

#24 corkob

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:42 AM


A boat with a morphing hull and fitted with a mini nuclear reactor like those being developed for home use???? WTF!! The North Koreans would love a fleet of those. Maybe they should try the reactors out in a 787 first.

Yes, Orville and Wilbur dealt with that sentiment too.

...and their "wing warping" idea was totally jacked up.


Follow your dreams. I would invest money in this if I were you.



#25 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:49 AM



A boat with a morphing hull and fitted with a mini nuclear reactor like those being developed for home use???? WTF!! The North Koreans would love a fleet of those. Maybe they should try the reactors out in a 787 first.

Yes, Orville and Wilbur dealt with that sentiment too.

...and their "wing warping" idea was totally jacked up.


Follow your dreams. I would invest money in this if I were you.

Nice BB. Those were the undisputed masters of the sea at one time. Look forward with a wide aperture. If nothing else, it's fun.
Cheers,
Patsy

#26 corkob

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:30 AM

How about this. I recently bought a bike for my son which had removeable stabiliser wheels on it. How about applying the same idea to a boat. Possibly fitting wheels that run along the sea floor to limit heeling. Alternatively how about a deck mounted gadget that would convert your standard monohull to a trimaran. These could be bolted on at both sides of the boat and could be lifted and dropped at will. They would provide stability through buoyancy on the leeward side while seats could also be fitted allowing crew on the outriggers on the windward side to add even more righting. For downwind and docking the whole kit and kabuddle could be lifted vertically to reduce drag and to allow the boat to slip into a standard birth. This could trick your average cruiser into a mini MOD 70.

#27 Southern Cross

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:00 PM



A boat with a morphing hull and fitted with a mini nuclear reactor like those being developed for home use???? WTF!! The North Koreans would love a fleet of those. Maybe they should try the reactors out in a 787 first.

Yes, Orville and Wilbur dealt with that sentiment too.

...and their "wing warping" idea was totally jacked up.


Follow your dreams. I would invest money in this if I were you.


Well, I mortgaged the house. Now what?

#28 blackjenner

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:44 PM

And we are closely getting to the point where we can literally print our own parts. They no longer make the old style hinges on your boat? That low load part is unobtainable? Print it.

http://www.shapeways...materials/steel

Not there yet but, close.

#29 Southern Cross

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:57 PM

1872. The Scurvy Dog. A tavern in Olde London.

Several old salts, crew of the Clipper Ship Ariel, having just returned from the Australia's by way of the Horn, share a pint and solemnly recall the voyage.

"Too bad for Atkins. He was a good fellow." Said one.

"And Stephens and Holland. Always on the look out they were". Said another.

"Don't forget Paine, Alberg, Farr and the boy Olson". Said the first.

"Nasty bit of business the Horn is". Says another.

They toss back a few more.

"Sorry the Scotty Macgregor lost his leg". Says one.

"Aye. And several fingers too? Not much of a seafaring man he was". Says another.

"If it weren't for that damned Typhoid it might have been a fair passage." Says one.

"Better Typhoid than Cholera". Remarks the first. "I hope those blokes come out all right. How many whose got it then?"

"Fifteen all told. Here's to our mates!" They raise their mugs and salute.

"Here! Here!"

"And what are you looking so sullen about young Mr Perry? Tis the way of the sea. Always has been always will be." Says the first.

"Aye. Since Roman times it is." Says another.

"So long as Queen Victoria herself serves tea in the afternoon in the Gardens of Balmoral, there'll be sailing ships and dogs like us to sail 'em". Echoes another.

"Long live the Queen!" They all salute.

"Oh, 'twas just a dream I had." replies Perry. "Can't seem to shake it though. About a ship, no a Pilot but not a Pilot. Forty feet or so in length. Single masted she was, with a proud bow and fine entry and a lovely shear line too. The hull was white as a baby's tooth. I called to her master, and just the one on board there was. And I says to him - what a fine little boat you have there, Sir. From what timber is she hewn? No timber at all he says. Glass, he says."

"Glass?" A few sing in unison.

"Been visiting the dens in Chinatown have we Perry?" The first says. They laugh out loud.

"That's what he said, so help me God." Replies Perry. "So I say, and what a fine suite of sails you got there Sir. Might they be made of glass too? To which he replied. No Sir, Nigh Lon."

"Nigh Lon? I think Mr Perry's got the Typhoid. Feel his head." Say another.

"Was his arse made of Nigh Lon too?" Uproarious laughter.

Mr Perry continues. "So, I call out, again. And where are you headed today, Sir? Round the world, he replies."

Ale is spewed. Laughter ensues.

"Round the world in a Glass boat!? If I had dreams such as this I'd check myself into to the nearest ward and think nothin' about tossin' out the key." Says the first.

"Aye. You are an odd bloke, Perry."

"Hold on. Hold on. I'm not done yet. As his stern, which was almost the shape of its bow, come to think of it ... as his stern was fading over the horizon, I called out one last time. And how will you sail her round the world all by yourself? To which he replied, I won't. She sails herself!"

A silence fell over the The Scurvy Dog. Finally, leaning in with a low and serious tone...

"What you speak of Mr. Perry is a blasphemous thing. Boats made of glass sailin' on their own. You'd best put such thoughts right out of your head. Tis no way for men of the sea to be thinkin'." Whispered the first.

"I suppose you're right. 'Twas just a foolish dream. Maybe it's time I should turn in."

Young Mr Perry rises, collecting his duffle bag and and walks to the door. Arrested by a thought (it happens), he spurns on his heals toward his fellow crew...

"Valiant!" He exclaimed.

"What's that, you say, Perry?"

"Valiant! He named her Valiant"!

"We'll at least he got one thing right", says the first.

"Here. Here."

POSTSCRIPT

It is to be noted that late in the following year, Ariel left London bound for Sydney and was not heard of again.

#30 Bob Perry

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:54 PM

Southerncross:
Many thanks for that. I read it twice. I like it. It makes me think. I hold dreams very dear. Sometimes they are all you have.

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#31 BalticBandit

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

We already have fully automated sailing "ships" well boats out on the ocean

http://www.google.fr...8,d.ZWU&cad=rja

and its been funded by Kickstarter

http://www.kickstart...botboat-mark-vi

Pretty cool actually - its a wing sailed catamaran that is self-righting

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2CAtcS8hpU"]https://www.youtube....h?v=e2CAtcS8hpU[/url]

#32 Great Red Shark

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:10 PM

But what the dreamers so conveniently love to forget: (for good and bad)

Somebody still has to build it, and then it needs to survive operation. For practicality it's all that matters.

Spend infinate design focus and money, or Go Sailing. Gotta love the creative, but its tranlation to an appropriate tech and investment is where some of it just gets silly and tedious. Like talking about chopping up fruit at 27 knots (riiiight...)

For all the crap the Splinter Heads* take, you have to give a nod to the unique BUILDS that regularly grace venues like Woodenboat - working with the ultimate in 'conventional material' limitations they make and USE a range of design far exceeding what most just talk about.

stuff like this, for instance. Extra points for the batty Italian translation. http://www.woodenboa...lans-kits/d-870
and http://www.woodenboa...sectional-sport and http://www.woodenboa...r-racing-dinghy


* def, "Splinter Heads" - the entire gamut of woodenboat owners, usually said with pity by plastic boat owners.

#33 Southern Cross

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:14 PM

I don't think its a matter of dreamers ignoring the practical implications of their dreams. It has more to do with the process of innovation. The car you drive probably started off resembling some vegetable before it was honed down through numerous redesigns and then even more intensive changes when the engineers got their handa on it. The concept was probably test marketed exhaustively and maybe exhibited at a show. 99 percent of the concepts are thrown out but maybe one makes it into production and if all goes well it sells. And yet auto companies find a way to be profitable.

I think without dreamers, those pushing the envelope or turning it upside down, we would just be retracing old lines over and over again. Innovation comes from imagination and risk. Galileo was considered a heretic for his propositions. Granted he had valid scientific data to back him up. But still, over and over, throughout history, the collective conscience is proven wrong.

Don't get me wrong. I think a sailboat is probably the greateat work of art, next to our children we have created or ever will create. Even the beastly ones get my attention more than any car ever does. The Pieta in St Peters has nothing on a J Boat.

My earlier comment, besides a tribute to Bob, was that there will always be those that think something is impossible. I never really understand the resistance to new ideas, even the most ludicrous. So much good comes from innovation. So many great things. Who out there isn't enjoying their carbon fiber rig, or their ability to resist polio, or a twist top beer bottle on a freakin' hot day? Where do you think all the ideas come from? They come from a lot of different places but they definitely don't come from the nae sayers.



#34 Bob Perry

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:42 PM

I appreciate the tribute and my "ultra ego" loves that stuff. If I may I'd like to save that little story. Not sure what for, my tombstone?

When I designed the Valiant, as sedate as it is today, there were lots of naysayers, lots. I had people ready to fight me because I put the rudder of a cruising boat on a skeg! But the truth is I was so stupid and young at the time I just blew them all off, if I paid any attention at all. But I got lucky and I was right.

But fact is I didn't innovate anything. I just came up with the term "performance cruiser" so it was easy for people to focus on something new when it had a real name. I can point to almost every part of the Valiant and tell you where I got the idea. Except the bow, which I think I got wrong. Too full. I just came along at the right time and I had nothing to do with that.

#35 Southern Cross

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:55 PM

My daughter is in the back of the car. I don't dare wake her up. So I'm sitting in the car in front of the house trying to type on this phone with my big thumbs.

I've witnessed that the most successful and most talented are often times the most humble. They say genius borrows. Mozart ripped off other composers all the time. Don't underestimate your contribution. If it was so obvious why hadn't someone else done it. You had the intuition to arrange the right combination of elements into one successful design.

Agh! She's awake!

#36 Grind4Beer

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:48 AM

Well ...

... The 3D-'printing' industry made lots of progress during the last 2-3 decades. Back in the day, it started with layers of resin that solidified under a rastered UV beam, and things went from there to layered powders, lost-waxes for casting, layered sand, even some metal alloys, if you don't mind some porosity. (And you can solve the porosity concern by infiltrating, or by hot isostatic pressing, if you're not terribly fussy about tolerances, or can machine the critical bits.) There's even a booming market in hobbyist plastic printers, shareware and freeware object-definition files, and supposedly a printable gun that's good for a few rounds before the chamber and barrel burst.

... 'Printing' metal parts, though, is still small-scale and expensive, unless you've got DoD-type funding.

... With regard to mutable structures, most of the artworks done to date have relatively light loading and open construction. They're not holding back lots of PSI in static or dynamic water pressure, or withstanding (or moving) 3-5 digit loads on rigging, hard points, etc. I'm not saying there won't be nano-scale ratcheting actuators at some point in the future (gonna be another decade or more for that), but other than larger discrete cylinders or whatnot, that leaves 'memory'-metals as the only option for moving beams around, and all of those are temperature sensitive.

... Other options? ... The guys with the inflatable sail concepts might be onto something there. Elastic hull elements have another set of concerns with punctures or tears, but hey, these are boats, and there's plenty of an incompressible liquid close at hand. Want to give that old pinch-butt IOR design a bulb keel, and then shift the CG back while flaring the back end? Pump out the stern panels, and bobs-ur-uncle!... Seriously, though, there's a lot about shape-shifting hulls and rigs that could be imagined, and some of it might actually be worthwhile, and maybe even affordable and effective ...

... Me, I'm just going to have another beer and think on all that, while waiting to win the PowerBall tonight so I can ask Bob to draw up a lift-bulb 30ft trailerboat with 8ft beam, at least a bit of standing headroom, a head and galley for s-w-m-b-o, enough sail area to be slightly scary and enough rudder to keep it pointed in useful directions.

G4B

#37 Bob Perry

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:31 AM

G4B:
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

PS:
I was just bull shitting you with that humility schtick.

#38 Southern Cross

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:57 PM

G4B:
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

PS:
I was just bull shitting you with that humility schtick.


You're a funny guy, Bob.

#39 Nicolations

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

Someday, sooner then later, some billionaire will be sipping some liquid sunshine or whatever the rich drink and think, "I need one of those boat thingies,after all, all my money-buddies have a few yachts"

He'll have his PA send a memo and hundreds of overpaid fresh, young, college grads will jump through hoops until they realize they don't have a clue what to do.

Then someone's half starved friend trying to make it in the silly world of boat engineering will twitter seeing if that part-time night-shift janitorial engineering job is still open.

Idea! (I don't have a light bulb icon)

Next thing you know Johnny Boat Boy is standing in a room with more money then sense being told it has to be big, not the biggest that's obscene, but it has to be cool, have thingies all over the place. Oo, oo, and green. Yeah, chicks like green guys.

All of the sudden piles of money are being poured into a grad paper that escaped its folder. The engineering is a little much so the kid gets a slew of engineers that design cars, computers, and splanes ( space planes to you and me) all the sexy stuff. The budget is expanded, this is research after all, and solar-bio-fusion reactors show up at a shed somewhere. The worlds largest private shed, but not obscenely so, starts to build the stretchy, mouldy, multi, pricey, hull-foil doodad.

The money isn't too thrilled but he's sold that his buddies will be green with envy, and the ladies will line up to see it! It IS the biggest. Just a little obscene.

Fast forward. Not as fast as big daddy starbucks would like but, man is it forward. It is a total/limited success/failure and the military/ industrial complex patents/steals/reverse engineers a bunch of stuff off of it. And it is obscene!

He sails it 3 time for 3 days. Low and behold...he gets sea sick!

Big Daddies 5th wife leaves. The boat goes to a charter service then is sold to a small 3rd world cargo company that runs it aground during a misunderstanding with local law enforcement.

But,

In a small yard in Portland, pick your coast, someone sees something that'll solve a little problem with a hull form/propulsion or something-or-other and all those dollars keep working.

Some times it's Wilbur n Orville
Some times it's Steve Jobs

I'm typing this on a phone that Dick Tracy would have killed for.
Who'd a' thunk it...

#40 Bump-n-Grind

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:30 PM

Well, I've arrived. The Hon. Mr perry has replied to my thread. Does that bump me up from Newbie status?


No :P

#41 Southern Cross

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:31 PM

Funny stuff . You're probably right on especially with Government funded projects. Don't forget Jobs started in a garage too. All the best stuff comes from tinkering in a garage.

#42 Nicolations

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:46 PM

Bob,
There is nothing new under the sun. But sometimes you get the mix just right and bang, you're a genius.

Chocolate covered Bacon.



#43 Southern Cross

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:56 PM

Bob,
There is nothing new under the sun. But sometimes you get the mix just right and bang, you're a genius.

Chocolate covered Bacon.


If you believe in any of the theories of a Multiverse the Valiant 40 has always existed and will always exist at some time or another.

#44 Bob Perry

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:23 PM

SC:
I'll make a deal with you. You collect al those royalties and I'll split them with you 50/50.

#45 Southern Cross

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:53 AM

SC:
I'll make a deal with you. You collect al those royalties and I'll split them with you 50/50.


My infinite other self wants 60 percent plus expenaes

#46 Southern Cross

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:23 AM

I was rereading this post and thought I must have really set the tone by being such a smart ass. This wasn't my intention. I was hoping some SA's might throw in some concept ideas of their own based on all the experience on the water and behind the drafting table there is. There have been some contributions that backed up the possibility of my idea and I appreciate that. Really interesting stuff.

When it comes to sailboat design and/or production "I don't know my ass from a whole in the ground" as my Great Grandmother Ermyl "Ma" Veach would say. But, when you find yourself trapped sailing under an awning! of a friend's Catalina 36! with no wind, your mind starts to wander...










#47 JumpingJax

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:58 AM

I was rereading this post and thought I must have really set the tone by being such a smart ass. This wasn't my intention. I was hoping some SA's might throw in some concept ideas of their own based on all the experience on the water and behind the drafting table there is. There have been some contributions that backed up the possibility of my idea and I appreciate that. Really interesting stuff.

When it comes to sailboat design and/or production "I don't know my ass from a whole in the ground" as my Great Grandmother Ermyl "Ma" Veach would say. But, when you find yourself trapped sailing under an awning! of a friend's Catalina 36! with no wind, your mind starts to wander...


This thread hasn't worked that way for a very good reason, I think.

Very few occasions have seen completely revolutionary new technology or science or engineering spring upon an unsuspecting world all anew. Technology and science and engineering are evolutionary and incrementally so in most cases. Some aspects are glacial in their rate of change. None of it can keep up with the human imagination.

That's not a priori a bad thing. Nor can we say it's a good thing. It's reality.

But be of good cheer. Think of all the prophetic imagining of H.G. Wells that eventually came to pass - even a journey to the moon. It just took a very long time. Of course not all Wells' ideas have come true.

And we still don't have that robotic maid from the Jetsons. But we have the Roomba, and that's a start. I still don't have my flying car; the few attempts have had lots of problems and limitations and they may never happen beyond experimental extravagances.

Will we ever get morphing hulls? Maybe, maybe not. But the "we" who gets them may well not include you and I and Bob, 'cause it may not happen for a century from now if at all. And will that future "we" remember that you came up with the idea in 2013? Well, it's often said that nothing in the Internet ever really goes away, so maybe "we" will erect statues of you or at least bronze plaques.

In the meantime, go sailing, have a beer and don't worry about it too much.

Fair winds and following seas.

#48 olaf hart

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:12 AM

Funny stuff . You're probably right on especially with Government funded projects. Don't forget Jobs started in a garage too. All the best stuff comes from tinkering in a garage.


Yep, that's where Albert Einstein found a way to put bubbles in beer ...



the backstory ...



#49 Nicolations

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:36 PM

Well said Jax

#50 Southern Cross

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:39 PM

All true. For the record, I was projecting many years from now. Let's see, flight has advanced from the Wright's to manned space flights in a 100 years or so.

How about this? What do you think a sail boat will look like in 100 years or say 500 years?

#51 Southern Cross

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 12:55 AM

http://farryachtdesi...m-tabs.html?m=1

An old article but essentially does the same thing,mechanically changing the shape of the hull.

Attached Files



#52 Great Red Shark

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 01:43 AM

And to be sure,  if  you'd have told someone in the 60's that we be sailing canting-keel boats around the world,  singlehanded,  in under 80 days they'd laugh you right out of the (men's only) yacht club bar.



#53 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 01:59 AM

Back in the late 70's there was an English designer who put everything he had into a motor sailer that had a "morphing" hull.. I forget the name of the designer and I forget the name of the boat. It was a very nice looking boat that had big panels that dropped down hydraulically in the stern quarters to give the boat a better planing shape. I'm not sure he sold any of them after tooling up for production. I remember being back east for a boat show and going down to breakfast at the hotel and seeing the designer eating his breakfast alone. I kind of thought I should go and ask if I could join him. But then I thought we'd end up talking about that boat and that would be depressing. I ate alone too.

I forget the name of the boat. And that's my point.



#54 Southern Cross

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:11 AM

Yes, Bob. Interesting. But that was 40 years ago and building materials have changed dramatically since then and I suspect they will improve even more dramatically in the next 40 years. Could you have conceived of an FT10 40 years ago? Maybe you had the thought but there was no way to build it. Did anybody concieve of a boat like the IMOCA 60 as previously mentioned, 40 years ago including cutting edge AC designers?

My point is, innovation comes from people like that guy. It may not have worked in practice, but given the right circumstances, ie building materials and computer power, someone may revisit the idea and make it work in the future.

#55 Great Red Shark

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:49 AM

I was in SF in 1989 when Warren Luhrs and Thursday's Child broke the Clipper record ( NY to SF ) and when he spoke at the St Frantic Yachtsman's luncheon ( I stood in back )  Warren had Lars Bergstrom (who designed the boat) along as crew and he too addressed the crowd.   Many "serious racing" sailors were in attendance and they were blown away by the radical proportions of the early Open 60 boat with it's massive draft and pendulum rudder - and especially how Lars kept calling it a "cruising boat" and only-half-jokingly chiding the IOR boats of the time for needing so many crew and how unstable they could get  " This worries the crew... " he said meekly  - the guy was charming and had a lot of interesting ideas to discuss like vortex generators and a host of schemes to promote planing.  At one point I remember him saying that in the future the battens and leech lines would be pneumatic - like the bladder in a kite-sail now  - "Because air doesn't fatigue" - and he had a point,  but it was right about there I could feel the room shift into " This guy is a loony dreamer "- mode.

 

Yeah,and foiling sailboats - that'll never happen...



#56 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:15 AM

SC:

I was not knocking that designer. I admired what he tried to do. I'm not sure materials would have made the difference but possibly. I think it was complexity and cost, oh yes, movable hull panels cannot be cheap, that killed the project. In fact I liked his boat  think I was the only one besides him that did.



#57 facthunt

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:25 AM

A boat with a morphing hull and fitted with a mini nuclear reactor like those being developed for home use???? WTF!! The North Koreans would love a fleet of those. Maybe they should try the reactors out in a 787 first.

Yes, Orville and Wilbur dealt with that sentiment too.

...and their "wing warping" idea was totally jacked up.

wilbur would not shit in the same can, apparently it contained the feaces of orville.



#58 BalticBandit

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:40 AM

Well didn't the Aussie AC boat in NZ kinda try this?   particularly with modern materiials you would not necessariy need the morphing part of the hull to be strutctural,  a second skin if you like.   But  the real issue is more that most cruisers don't carry enough power to get out of displacement mode.  Water ballasted boats like the RIpTide allow that to some extent but  unless you have the Power/Disp ratiio that is way more than the average sailor can handle, you cannot drive a VOR hull hard enough to make the speeds they do,  Morphing hulls will only get you incremental deltas in speed



#59 JimL

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 07:18 AM

SC:

I was not knocking that designer. I admired what he tried to do. I'm not sure materials would have made the difference but possibly. I think it was complexity and cost, oh yes, movable hull panels cannot be cheap, that killed the project. In fact I liked his boat  think I was the only one besides him that did.

Bob, You were not the only one who liked that boat.  I liked the concept too, only he had built it and it worked for him,  Somewhere around here I have the magazine article that went into the detail and construction of this yacht.  From memory it was an existing design that was modified? Need to check that if I can find the article.  The photos showed the yacht under sail and planing up the river, dunno what speed but the hull was definatley planing.

 

The concept/aim was to have a yacht that could navigate tidal rivers (as in UK) but also sail effectively in deep water. The yacht got up tidal rivers on the plane to get home before the mooring dried out. It had a swing keel, deployable stern planes?plates? to widen out the quarter for planing and a fairly large Volvo aquamatic with the leg able to swing up into the hull for sailing.  If I can find this article I will try to post it.

 

I admired the attempt to adapt/design a yacht for a specific purpose.  (I used to say to my apprentices, if you can imagine it, then draw it, then you are on your way to designing it.)

 

Cheers,

Jim B)



#60 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 12:49 PM

JimL:

I recall a photo of the boat planing also. I don't think there is any question his boat worked. The problem is that nobody bought it.

 

Baltic:

I think you are talking about the "hula" on the NZ AC boat. That was an attempt to increase prismatic and sailing length while getting around rule restrictions regarding hollows in the profile as far as I recall and it was fixed in place and did not change shape.



#61 Mambo Kings

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

Well, I've arrived. The Hon. Mr perry has replied to my thread. Does that bump me up from Newbie status?

Nah. Bob has a soft spot for newbies. Especially on apple pie baking days.


Who knows how we will be cooking apple pie in 100 years or 500 years or what it will look like. The LA times has proposed a "high tech" apple pie http://articles.lati...713_1_apple-pie .

Hopefully there will still be some artisan apple pie builders using traditional materials and traditional designs. Not that I am against experimentation.

#62 Mambo Kings

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:09 PM

Many different ways that shapes are evolving:

Attached File  images.jpg   7.68K   3 downloads

Attached File  apple-pie.jpg   113.51K   4 downloads

Attached File  tumblr_m9q1r2Cnbs1rd0tmlo1_500.jpg   59.13K   5 downloads

What do you think the future holds for us? What will Bob add to the world of Apple Pie? Is there a Valiant Apple Pie starting to take form, are there sketches or is it just still a dream in that head?

#63 Southern Cross

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:22 PM

SC:
I was not knocking that designer. I admired what he tried to do. I'm not sure materials would have made the difference but possibly. I think it was complexity and cost, oh yes, movable hull panels cannot be cheap, that killed the project. In fact I liked his boat  think I was the only one besides him that did.


Oops. In bold italics? Fair enough.

#64 Southern Cross

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:27 PM

I was in SF in 1989 when Warren Luhrs and Thursday's Child broke the Clipper record ( NY to SF ) and when he spoke at the St Frantic Yachtsman's luncheon ( I stood in back )  Warren had Lars Bergstrom (who designed the boat) along as crew and he too addressed the crowd.   Many "serious racing" sailors were in attendance and they were blown away by the radical proportions of the early Open 60 boat with it's massive draft and pendulum rudder - and especially how Lars kept calling it a "cruising boat" and only-half-jokingly chiding the IOR boats of the time for needing so many crew and how unstable they could get  " This worries the crew... " he said meekly  - the guy was charming and had a lot of interesting ideas to discuss like vortex generators and a host of schemes to promote planing.  At one point I remember him saying that in the future the battens and leech lines would be pneumatic - like the bladder in a kite-sail now  - "Because air doesn't fatigue" - and he had a point,  but it was right about there I could feel the room shift into " This guy is a loony dreamer "- mode.
 
Yeah,and foiling sailboats - that'll never happen...


Great story. Any more?

#65 Southern Cross

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:44 PM

SC:
I'm not sure materials would have made the difference but possibly.

I used to play a pickup hockey game in the valley every Sunday night some years ago. It was a bunch of Hollywood "Who's", some ex college players and the pros would join in once in a while during the off season. Frank Ghery would join in too (I checked him really bad behind the net once and I don't think he ever forgave me).

Anyway, after the games we'd all grab a bite and a beer. I remember these hockey goons being so interested in Frank's work and he loved just being one of the guys. He would talk about his projects. He had already done Bilbao and was working on the Disney Concert Hall amongst other projects in New York.

The thing I remember most about what he said is, what revolutionized architecture were the advances in the materials, and the computing power. He never could have done what he did otherwise. He felt that it was just the beginning of a complete revolution in design.

I went to the opening of the Disney Concert Hall and was blown away.

#66 SemiSalt

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:16 PM

I'm a little surprised we have not seen more variable geometry trimarans. I suppose that light weight is more important than a small change in shape.

 

I can certainly see motorboat-type trim tabs on the transom of a high-speed sailboat. it sounds like the boat that Bob mentioned was an elaboration of that idea.

 

I can see that it might be useful to have a system on a very fine-bowed boat that instantly increases volume and buoyancy if the boat nosedives though increased drag is the last thing you want at that moment.

 

How about a variable geometry rudder so that if you are at, say, 3 deg of helm and need a little more, you can go to more area at 3 deg rather than the same area a 6 degrees?



#67 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:00 PM

Variable geometry rudder:  Just put a motor lift unit on a VARA or any cassette style rudder that lifts it when on center line and drops it as you increase the helm angle.  Pretty simple and would dramatically reduce drag when you don't need the control.



#68 Southern Cross

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:36 PM

I'm a little surprised we have not seen more variable geometry trimarans. I suppose that light weight is more important than a small change in shape.

 

I can certainly see motorboat-type trim tabs on the transom of a high-speed sailboat. it sounds like the boat that Bob mentioned was an elaboration of that idea.

 

I can see that it might be useful to have a system on a very fine-bowed boat that instantly increases volume and buoyancy if the boat nosedives though increased drag is the last thing you want at that moment.

 

How about a variable geometry rudder so that if you are at, say, 3 deg of helm and need a little more, you can go to more area at 3 deg rather than the same area a 6 degrees?

 

A+ idea.  What about the keel?  I can't imagine that a boat optimized for upwind performance is also the same optimal design for downwind performance.  It has always been about compromises.  But Why?  Imagine going from a wave piercing bow to a Scow bow or widening the beam for greater righting moment when necessary.  Trim can be adjusted with movable ballast, dagger boards and trim tabs.  Why not done internally given the right materials?

 

As someone mentioned earlier, not all boats will be able to foil due their added weight. So, displacement hulls are here to stay, for a while at least.   Since the beginning, we have had sail plans that adapt to all conditions  - reefs, outhauls, downhauls, cunnighams, vangs, ajustable backstays etc etc. But the hull has remained static.  

 

Why? Expense? Yes.  It used to take the National Budget to get someone in space.  Now, private companies are doing it for a fraction of the cost.  Materials?  Not available yet.  Real world practicality?  Isn't water ballast a fairly common form of ballast now?  

 

It was said earlier that genius borrows.  A hull shape is borrowed from nature.  The skeletal structure, the lines, the skin.  I swim a lot of miles in the ocean.  It always amazes me when a school of dolphins swims under me.  One will inevitably turn an eye and check me out, me crawling on the surface.  "What an abomination", I can see him think and without any discernible movement at all, he torpedoes out of sight, leaving me in its (no wake at all).  If we could only come close to that perfection.

 

Enough yacking.  Time to work on the boat.  Anyone know where I can get 7/8" Nylon grommets?

 

Attached is an interesting read.

Attached Files



#69 Southern Cross

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

http://www.accionasa...-Daily-Sail.pdf

If the .pdf isn't working...

#70 Mud sailor

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:14 PM

I remember that guy...now this is very similar and applied to powerboats

 

http://www.google.co...1163148A1?cl=en

 

(The english designers patent should be listed somewhere but I can't find it)

 

Sea Ray have finally put this into production...http://www.searay.co...ng-Surface.aspx

 

I know this works on a powerboat, and no reason it should not work on a sailboat

 

found it    Ian Anderson

 

http://www.google.co...tents/US4458622



#71 phillysailor

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:12 PM

We are seeing wing sails and variations in production. This represents a technological paradigm shift of the type you are considering, albeit above the waterline. I am particularly impressed by Chris White's Atlantic 47 MastFoil system. Has anyone sailed aboard this boat written up the experience other than the manufacturers?

 

To be honest, I am of the opinion that the slippery hull will sail faster and more reliably if it doesn't hit stuff. I'd be more impressed by the hull that senses trouble ahead and avoids it: over time it will go faster and farther with much less downtime for maintenance.

 

If you want speed, seems like you will eventually be looking at foils, and the purpose of the hull is to promote flying and gentle reentry. Once that is accomplished, you've got quieter, smoother and more stable conditions for the sailors aboard.



#72 STYACHT

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 09:07 PM

11pm on Saturday, and I happen onto this thread.  1/3 replying as a "like" because the Ebert rating system is missing in forums.1/3 replying to keep track of the thread on Monday morning.  1/3 replying to say: what about inflatable structures?

 

D

 

PS Hi Bob



#73 Southern Cross

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 09:22 PM

Hydraulics, electric engines, inflatable... Might work. Just missing the skin to do it

#74 Nicolations

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 09:36 PM

The Air Force had flexing skin on the F-16 AFTI demonstrator. I think. It may have been the the F-16 XL, the full delta attack concept. The point was smoother airflow over slats and flaperons, but I think ( several concussions later) it also had variable camber or profile cross section.
Control surface ala Wilbur and Orville.
Smithsonian Air and Space might have had the article

Skin for a Mach number aircraft would be pretty tough.

I think

#75 Southern Cross

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:38 PM

http://www.sbir.gov/...h/detail/249395

Something like this?

#76 Southern Cross

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:49 PM

https://www.google.c...DPu49a1JvE8qrjQ

Shape memory polymers.

#77 Nicolations

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:48 AM

Bingo!
My own opinion is that the actuation of the skin would be the difficult end of the trick. Powerful,tiny,efficient,light.

If I could just get some unobtainium...

#78 Southern Cross

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:24 AM

An excerpt... the issues of designing architectural skins that can be physically morphed to adapt to changing needs.To achieve this architectural vision, designers have focused on developing mechanical joints, components, and systems for actuation and kinetic transformation. However, the unexplored approach of using lightweight elastic form-changing materials provides an opportunity for designing responsive architectural skins and skeletons with fewer mechanical operations. This research aims to develop elastic modular systems that can be applied as a second skin or brise-soleil to existing buildings.The use of the second skin has the potential to allow existing buildings to perform better in various climatic conditions and to provide a visually compelling skin

#79 Southern Cross

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:30 AM

And another... Morphing aircraft wings require flexible skins that can undergo large strains, have low in-plane stiffness and very high out-of-plane flexural bending stiffness. The large strain capability is especially important for gross morphing applications such as span change where the skins may be required to undergo axial strains of the order of 50% or greater. Low in-plane stiffness allows morphing to be accomplished at a reasonable energy cost while high bending stiffness ensures that skin sections between supports do not suffer from significant out-of-plane deformation under aerodynamic pressure loads. For some morphing applications (for example, wing span-, chord-, or camber-change), the required deformation is mostly one-dimensional. In such a case, a Flexible Matrix Composite (FMC) skin is proposed as a possible solution. A FMC comprises of stiff fibers (for example fiberglass) embedded in a soft high-strain capable matrix material (for example, silicone). The idea is to align the matrix-dominated direction along the morphing direction. This allows the skin to undergo large strain at low energy cost. However, the high-stiffness in the fiber-dominated direction, along with applied tension along the fiber-dominated direction is critical in providing the membrane skin with a large out-of-plane stiffness and consequently, the ability to withstand aerodynamic pressure loads.

#80 Southern Cross

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:33 AM

I was interested to learn that the latest ocean racing boats use on board computer modelling to calculate optimal ballast and sail configurations for current sea states and wind conditions.

So, there must be an optimal hull form for every point of sail and for every sea state. And I think that in some cases the change may be minor while in others it might be a radical change. There are times when a fuller bow would help considerably, for example. Some one posted a video of a Mini? nose diving and turning vertically.

If the trim tab on the IMOCA is the first step, then maybe the next step is widening the beam or narrowing the bow entry. If changing the shape of the hull can improve lateral stability and righting moment, then it might also reduce the need for additional ballast systems. Lighter boat. Faster boat. Increased power to weight ratio.

As some one also mentioned, not every boat will be able to foil simply because of the payload it needs to carry. Just a hypothetical but will a tanker ever be able to foil? Maybe. It would need a powerful propulsion system, energy or fuel, more weight.

Wind conditions vary widely and sail configurations address this. Sea conditions vary widely but the hull doesn't change. Never has. Since the first raft. The search for the perfect all around hull shape continues. Maybe the answer is to say, fuck it, just get the damn thing out of the water, foil the son of a bitch. Will boats on foils circumnavigate successfully? Probably. Safely? What makes a boat seaworthy? There's a thread on that in here somewhere.

A boat built on an ultra light skeletal frame that articulates, laid over with a light high tensile elastic skin allowing the shape to morph might be an alternative.

#81 Southern Cross

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:51 AM

Last word.

Imagine power reaching on the 2025 V70. The wing has been optimized and the reaching head sail trimmed. The boat is powering along at a comfortable 25knts. Then the "hull trimmer" goes to work. First he flatness the aft section underbody, hardens the lee chine, narrows the beam and lifts the transom ever so slightly. The computer model confirms this and away they go, watching the knot meter climb 25, 30 35, 40 knts....

Hull trimming. Get your degree now!

#82 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:28 PM

Barnacles are not going to like this idea at all.



#83 timothy22

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

This from the Dolphin Research Center in Grassy Key, FL

Seems tha the hull skin could benefit from the same sort of construction.

Attached Files



#84 Bob Perry

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:19 PM

Timo:

That, micro ridges or micro grooves, was tried many years ago on 12 meters. As I recall it was succesful but subsequently banned.



#85 jerryj2me

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:56 PM

One of the things about taking on a method of design that has the

capability to morph or modify means that it adds both cost and complexity.

 

As a general rule -- As complexity goes up reliability goes down.

 

So, if you want a boat that can actively change hull shape, expect

the vessel to pay a cost premium and a reliability downgrade.

 

As for vehicle and vessels that are multipurpose?

You pretty much always end up making compromises

for that multipurpose function.

 

Some examples that come to mind:

Flying cars all made pretty poor cars and pretty poor airplanes.

 

Racer-Cruiser sailboats take a performance hit to add cruiser comforts.

 

The Mac26 can't decide if its a sailboat or a power boat and it does

both poorly.

 

Modern materials improve the design, but a specialized single purpose design

(using those newer, lighter stronger materials)

tends to be optimized, and not full of compromises to gain versatility.

 

Things like military fighters have a "cost be damned" approach, but even there

you can pay a hit in reliability to get the performance of special features.



#86 Southern Cross

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

One of the things about taking on a method of design that has the
capability to morph or modify means that it adds both cost and complexity.
 
As a general rule -- As complexity goes up reliability goes down.
 
So, if you want a boat that can actively change hull shape, expect
the vessel to pay a cost premium and a reliability downgrade.
 
As for vehicle and vessels that are multipurpose?
You pretty much always end up making compromises
for that multipurpose function.
 
Some examples that come to mind:
Flying cars all made pretty poor cars and pretty poor airplanes.
 
Racer-Cruiser sailboats take a performance hit to add cruiser comforts.
 
The Mac26 can't decide if its a sailboat or a power boat and it does
both poorly.
 
Modern materials improve the design, but a specialized single purpose design
(using those newer, lighter stronger materials)
tends to be optimized, and not full of compromises to gain versatility.
 
Things like military fighters have a "cost be damned" approach, but even there
you can pay a hit in reliability to get the performance of special features.

I have to agree with you on many points. It would not be cost effective to put into production something like this right now. Also, there would probably be a lot of failures and kinks to be worked out.

But...and I have already pointed out that I really don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to production and design...

The first computers were behemoths, taking up an entire room. They were complex and probably unreliable. This was only 60 years ago. If someone had proposed the computing power of say, my cell phone, to be mass produced, they would have been shot on the spot as a Soviet Spy. Fossil fuel engines are pretty complex and pretty reliable. Were they always? Electric engines are becoming more commonplace.

It's hard to imagine what things will be like 50 - 100 years from now let alone 10 years from now. I just like boats and I like to imagine how they might be ... perfect?

#87 postpast

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:00 PM

I think if someone is able to create a really good motor sailor the whole industry could be put on its head. What sailor wouldn't want to be able to tow a water-skier or travel at 30 knots to avoid a storm? With new engine tech allowing light 1 liter engines to produce 200hp, it becomes a matter of hull design.  

 

While the Mac 26 is seen as a horrible design here; they have sold more of them then most of our favorite designs put together. If a boat could combine the versatility of the Mac26 with truly good sailing and motoring qualities; the potential is limitless. The same could be said with a similar boat in the 50ft range.

 

While the designer that Bob mentions above was unsuccessful, I think his vision was true and spot on. While I am a true sailor who has little interest in stink pots, nothing would interest me more than a motor sailor that could provide pure sailing and motoring performance.



#88 jerryj2me

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:35 AM


The first computers were behemoths, taking up an entire room. They were complex and probably unreliable. This was only 60 years ago. If someone had proposed the computing power of say, my cell phone, to be mass produced, they would have been shot on the spot as a Soviet Spy. Fossil fuel engines are pretty complex and pretty reliable. Were they always? Electric engines are becoming more commonplace.

It's hard to imagine what things will be like 50 - 100 years from now let alone 10 years from now. I just like boats and I like to imagine how they might be ... perfect?

 

interesting analogy - i have spent the last 35 years (gettin old!) doing electronics, semiconductors and all the related stuff.

I do agree that the first generation of anything is big ugly, expensive and unreliable.

 

Learn and improve, learn and improve, repeat, repeat...

 

I think we got some exciting things going on at the advanced end, wings instead of sails, foils and lifting structures etc.

 

How much of that will get applied to the mainstream designs in the future?

 

However people drive Honda Civics mostly and not Formula 1 cars.



#89 Southern Cross

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:17 PM

http://m.cnet.com/ne...r/57577855?ds=1

More stuff to hit

#90 Dogmaa

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:53 PM

This is how you could do DWFTTW



#91 Southern Cross

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:43 AM

Chuck Hoberman designed the kinectic sculpture at the California Science Center I mentioned in the very beginning. Here is his You Tube Page...

http://m.youtube.com...ermanassociates

The engineering is complex but aspects of it could be used to recreate the beams needed to morph a hull shape. Just imagine a skin stretched over it...

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=b1L4503LXfk

#92 Southern Cross

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:48 PM

Always new materials being developed. In keeping with this post, I thought some of these may have applications in the Marine Industry down the line.

Except for its ability to conduct electricity and absorb light (maybe you can paint it) aerographite might make a strong and fast boat.

http://ngm.nationalg...super-materials



THINNEST AND STRONGEST

A human hair is almost a million times thicker than a layer of graphene. The material is made of a single layer of carbon atoms arranged in a honeycomb pattern. In theory, a string of graphene with a diameter of just one-tenth of a square millimeterthe size of a very sharp pencil pointcould hold up a thousand-pound piano. To take advantage of that incredible strength, though, scientists will have to figure out a way to embed this atomic-scale element in other materials.





Shrimp shells + silk protein = one of many freshly minted (and super-useful) materials.



Combine shrimp shell and silk proteins and a miraculous new substance is born. "Shrilk" was invented by researchers at the Wyss Institute at Harvard, who layered the two components in a way that mimicked structures found in shells and insect cuticles. Shrilk is inexpensive to manufacture but has invaluable virtues: It's tough, flexible, and biodegradable. In the future it may be used to make everything from wound dressings to trash bags to disposable diapers. And it might make many landfill-choking plastics obsolete.



Less crap in the ocean too!

Scientists crushed a naturally occurring kind of carbon called buckminsterfullerene (the molecules look like soccer balls) to create a material strong enough to dent diamonds. As yet unnamed, it may find use in industrial manufacturing and deep-well drilling.

Buckminsterfullerene is named for the patent holder of a similarly shaped architectural dome.

Aerographite is a form of carbon with a spongelike structure. It is water-repellent, highly resilient, and extremely light. It also conducts electricity. Its inventors believe it could be used in electric-car batteriesa lighter load cuts operating costs. Theyve yet to determine how to profit from its ability to absorb almost all light, which makes it blacker than coal.









#93 Southern Cross

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:37 AM

A boat with a morphing hull and fitted with a mini nuclear reactor like those being developed for home use???? WTF!! The North Koreans would love a fleet of those. Maybe they should try the reactors out in a 787 first.


Mini Nuclear Reactors

If Joseph Zawodny, a senior scientist at NASA’s Langley Research Center, is correct, the future of energy may lie in a nuclear reactor small enough and safe enough to be installed where the home water heater once sat. Using weak nuclear forces that turn nickel and hydrogen into a new source of atomic energy, the process offers a light, portable means of producing tremendous amounts of energy for the amount of fuel used. It could conceivably power homes, revolutionize transportation and even clean the environment.

Currently, nuclear power means one of two approaches. There’s fission, which involves splitting atoms of uranium or plutonium to release energy, and is employed in all military and civilian nuclear plants. Then there’s fusion, which involves forcing together hydrogen atoms to form helium and releasing even more energy. The former has been controversial for decades while the latter has been in the research phase since the 1950s, and is still as far away from practical application now as it was then.

The problem with current nuclear technology is that fission produces nuclear wastes and has a poor public image, while both fusion and fission involve generating large amounts of dangerous ionizing radiation. It also doesn't help that both processes require large, complicated installations with heavy shielding. That’s because conventional nuclear reactions rely on what are called strong nuclear forces, which are the forces that hold atoms together. Breaking heavy atoms apart or forcing light atoms together releases enough energy to run a nation or blow one up.

What Zawodny and other researchers are working on is called Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions or Lattice Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR). In the late 1980s, it went by the name of “cold fusion.” Its proponents were light on theory and not very rigorous in experimenting. They thought that nuclear energy was being released by a chemical reaction, but this theory ended up being discredited. Today, not only the name has changed, but also the theory and the approach of the researchers.

“There are a lot of people who are trying to just build something without understanding anything,” Zawodny said. “It worked for Edison and the light bulb, but it took him a long time and that was a simple system. This is very complex. And if they make something that just barely works, and accidentally one in a thousand works really, really well, it's going to take down a house with their trial-and-error.

According to Zawodny, LENR isn’t what was thought of as cold fusion and it doesn't involve strong nuclear forces. Instead, it uses weak nuclear forces, which are responsible for the decay of subatomic particles. The LENR process involves setting up the right conditions to turn these weak forces into energy. Instead of using radioactive elements like uranium or plutonium, LENR uses a lattice or sponge of nickel atoms, which holds ionized hydrogen atoms like a sponge holds water.

The electrons in the metal lattice are made to oscillate so that the energy applied to the electrons is concentrated into only a few of them. When they become energetic enough, the electrons are forced into the hydrogen protons to form slow neutrons. These are immediately drawn into the nickel atoms, making them unstable. This sets off a reaction in which one of the neutrons in the nickel atom splits into a proton, an electron and an antineutrino. This changes the nickel into copper, and releases energy without dangerous ionizing radiation.

The trick is to configure the process so that it releases more energy than it needs to get it going. “It turns out that the frequencies that we have to work at are in what I call a valley of inaccessibility,” Zawodny said. “Between, say, 5 or 7 THz and 30 THz, we don't have any really good sources to make our own controlled frequency.”

LENR is a very long way from the day when you can go out and buy a home nuclear reactor. In fact, it still has to be proven that the phenomenon even exists, but hundreds of experiments worldwide indicate that heat and transmutations with minimal radiation and low energy input do take place with yields of 10 to 100 watts.

Much work needs to be done to validate these claims, but it may already be happening outside of the laboratory. According to the theory’s co-developer, Lewis Larsen, LENR may occur naturally in lightning or even in the primordial cloud of gas and dust that formed the Earth. If so, it would explain why the oxygen isotopes of our planet and the Sun are so different.

If it could be made to work, the practical applications would be as revolutionary as what fission has achieved and fusion has promised. Theoretically, the process could yield several million times more energy than chemical reactions. According to Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center, one percent of the nickel mined per year could meet the world’s energy needs for a quarter of the cost of coal. In past years, several labs have blown up while studying LENR and windows have melted – showing that if it really works, it can produce an impressive amount of energy.

Zawodny says that the most logical first application of LENR is the home reactor, which would produce heat and electricity for the home while charging the family electric car. Another area is in transportation, with the light, portable reactors powering supersonic aircraft and flying cars without the danger or radiation. It could even be used to power a space plane capable of reaching orbit without stages or external fuel tanks.

One area of particular interest is the environment, with the LENR reactor using carbon to run it, converting the element into nitrogen. According to Zawodny, this would be much better than sequestering carbon dioxide to control climate change, and could also be used to eliminate toxic carbon compounds by turning waste into fuel.

The future of LENR is a matter of taking a step back in nuclear physics. The first generation leapt straight to strong force reactions. Now the goal is to go back and study the weak forces.

“From my perspective, this is still a physics experiment,” Zawodny said. “I'm interested in understanding whether the phenomenon is real, what it's all about. Then the next step is to develop the rules for engineering. Once you have that, I'm going to let the engineers have all the fun.” He went on to say that, “ All we really need is that one bit of irrefutable, reproducible proof that we have a system that works. As soon as you have that, everybody is going to throw their assets at it. And then I want to buy one of these things and put it in my house.”

Sources: NASA,

#94 Beowulf Vl

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:33 AM

I much preferred "intergalactic". Hell I understood "intergalactic".

Making at 27 knots. Beware that Dashew is a bit of a snake oil salesman. I'd take that 27 knots with a very large grain, no,,,boulder of salt. He once told me he like 6 to 7 degrees of weather helm. He once told me he likes the ketch rig because it raises the VCG.

I  don't think Dashew ever claimed sustained 27 knots, but surfing speeds to that can be verified or not by watching a bit of video at http://dashewoffshor...=95J5T&lb=1&s=A . If you are impatient, go to about 3:10. Or maybe watch the whole thing - might learn something about crossing oceans.



#95 mikewof

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:34 AM

My day job has been a splash of cold water in my ideas for the future of adaptive design. These technologies come out of the lab (and have been coming out of the lab since around the time we started the Moon Missions) but they rarely make it much farther.

 

Look at automobiles ... for all the fancy GPS navigation, and excellent safety equipment, the basic powerplant of these things isn't all that different from the Model T ... we have reciprocating cylinders and they reciprocate. We have carbon fiber body components and advanced alloy drivetrain components, but other than materials and basic design, our machines have much more similarity with the old technology than anything someone in the 1950s would have thought our vehicles would be by now. We have the technology to make piezo-electric spherical combustion chambers, but the market is a crueler mistress than the sea.

 

So in sailboats, I'm sure we'll see some better hull materials, cores that respond better than foam or wood, polymers in our sails that give improved and adaptive wing shapes, always better navigation and tiller interface, but all of these technologies need to first meet the requirement of making a machine that doesn't murder itself. It's one thing to make an advanced racing machine that has to make a few runs and pay its bills to the sponsors, and it's something else to make a machine that a regular schmuck pulls up a ten year debt and hangs a good chunk of his or her hopes for retirement and faith in reliability. I can see perhaps embedded sensors making the cut, but not reactive piezoelectrics.

 

Or, it should be possible and workable to make adaptive water balancing to trim the hull density distribution, because that's ultimately just some creative plumbing, but accomplishing that same thing through flexing the hull is probably not something we'll see in our lifetimes even if the technology is here now. We will see rigs embedded with sensors to give us feedback to more accurately shape the sail, but I think it's unlikely that we'll see a mast that can proactively flex. People will pay an extra $25,000 to upgrade a decayed mast from aluminum to carbon fiber because they can see the benefit in a reasonable way that doesn't exceed 10% of the value of their boat and they get a lot of benefit from having a better mast. But an unobtainium hull that is a 500% upcharge over a conventional material? That's a much tougher sell.

 

If cost is the guiding principle with looking in the future of concept sailing, I think the things we'll see most will be the low-hanging fruit of adaptive control and it will come in as a cost savings over higher priced performance options. For instance, if someone is paying the 25% upcharge for the carbon fiber mast, then they'll also be a good candidate to pay an extra 5% for a mast with impregnated stress-strain sensors that wirelessly communicate servos and piezos on the rig to actively control tension and sail shape. That's a lot of bang for the buck because it leverages the otherwise lost investment of backstays (for instance) ... but to disable that whole rig and replace with some kind of crazy adaptive flex foil? There might be a few buyers, but how many?

 

It goes back to cars ... when someone has a classic automobile, they'll consider electronic ignition hidden under a dummy distributor cap, or fuel injection hidden under a carb, but they aren't going to pull that classic Cobra LeMans to replace it with a Vortec. It's like that with boats, we have things we find beautiful, and have produced decades of reliability and feedback. Your average hocked-up sailor won't trade that for some Terminator morphing body technology.



#96 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:38 AM

might learn something about crossing oceans.

Oh, look; a noob defending his boat! 



#97 BalticBandit

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:06 AM

My day job has been a splash of cold water in my ideas for the future of adaptive design. These technologies come out of the lab (and have been coming out of the lab since around the time we started the Moon Missions) but they rarely make it much farther.

 

Look at automobiles ... for all the fancy GPS navigation, and excellent safety equipment, the basic powerplant of these things isn't all that different from the Model T ... we have reciprocating cylinders and they reciprocate. We have carbon fiber body components and advanced alloy drivetrain components, but other than materials and basic design, our machines have much more similarity with the old technology than anything someone in the 1950s would have thought our vehicles would be by now. We have the technology to make piezo-electric spherical combustion chambers, but the market is a crueler mistress than the sea.

 

So in sailboats, I'm sure we'll see some better hull materials, cores that respond better than foam or wood, polymers in our sails that give improved and adaptive wing shapes, always better navigation and tiller interface, but all of these technologies need to first meet the requirement of making a machine that doesn't murder itself. It's one thing to make an advanced racing machine that has to make a few runs and pay its bills to the sponsors, and it's something else to make a machine that a regular schmuck pulls up a ten year debt and hangs a good chunk of his or her hopes for retirement and faith in reliability. I can see perhaps embedded sensors making the cut, but not reactive piezoelectrics.

 

Or, it should be possible and workable to make adaptive water balancing to trim the hull density distribution, because that's ultimately just some creative plumbing, but accomplishing that same thing through flexing the hull is probably not something we'll see in our lifetimes even if the technology is here now. We will see rigs embedded with sensors to give us feedback to more accurately shape the sail, but I think it's unlikely that we'll see a mast that can proactively flex. People will pay an extra $25,000 to upgrade a decayed mast from aluminum to carbon fiber because they can see the benefit in a reasonable way that doesn't exceed 10% of the value of their boat and they get a lot of benefit from having a better mast. But an unobtainium hull that is a 500% upcharge over a conventional material? That's a much tougher sell.

 

If cost is the guiding principle with looking in the future of concept sailing, I think the things we'll see most will be the low-hanging fruit of adaptive control and it will come in as a cost savings over higher priced performance options. For instance, if someone is paying the 25% upcharge for the carbon fiber mast, then they'll also be a good candidate to pay an extra 5% for a mast with impregnated stress-strain sensors that wirelessly communicate servos and piezos on the rig to actively control tension and sail shape. That's a lot of bang for the buck because it leverages the otherwise lost investment of backstays (for instance) ... but to disable that whole rig and replace with some kind of crazy adaptive flex foil? There might be a few buyers, but how many?

 

It goes back to cars ... when someone has a classic automobile, they'll consider electronic ignition hidden under a dummy distributor cap, or fuel injection hidden under a carb, but they aren't going to pull that classic Cobra LeMans to replace it with a Vortec. It's like that with boats, we have things we find beautiful, and have produced decades of reliability and feedback. Your average hocked-up sailor won't trade that for some Terminator morphing body technology.

Well Nissan has just announced they are going to be selling a self-driving car in 2020 http://online.wsj.co...2031956964.html

 

Frankly for the average PHRF sailor of a 30' boat, the best investment would be an NKE fullon self-steering system.   It outdrives most PHRF skippers



#98 On the Hard

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:01 PM


So speaking of innovation, I've had an idea for years that I wanted to "Float" here. And I'll admit upfront that I've never done significant offshore passagemaking. Just the odd offshore race or two. But one of the things that would scare me if I were to contemplate a majopr crossing is submerged containers, telephone poles, etc.

So here goes. What about a bulb on the bow, similar to what you see on a container ship, but designed to sheer off in the event of a collision? It would have to able to stand up to the pounding of inshore chop and the occasional offshore drop off a wave so it would have to have a pretty fair amount of structural integrity, but it would lengthen the water line and be a sacrificial element in the event of a real collision. Could that be done? Should it be done?

I envision something about 2'-3' in length and the design would drive the bow up in the event of collision, so it would work with the shape of a traditional (not plumb) bow

#99 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 04:15 PM

Hard:

Paul Elvstrom tried a bulbous bow on a 5.5. meter many years ago as I recollect. It didn't work. I think bulbs are not effective over the range of speeds a sailboat sees. The bulb also made the boat hard to turn as I recollect.



#100 Ryley

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:45 PM

So speaking of innovation, I've had an idea for years that I wanted to "Float" here. And I'll admit upfront that I've never done significant offshore passagemaking. Just the odd offshore race or two. But one of the things that would scare me if I were to contemplate a majopr crossing is submerged containers, telephone poles, etc.

So here goes. What about a bulb on the bow, similar to what you see on a container ship, but designed to sheer off in the event of a collision? It would have to able to stand up to the pounding of inshore chop and the occasional offshore drop off a wave so it would have to have a pretty fair amount of structural integrity, but it would lengthen the water line and be a sacrificial element in the event of a real collision. Could that be done? Should it be done?

I envision something about 2'-3' in length and the design would drive the bow up in the event of collision, so it would work with the shape of a traditional (not plumb) bow

I think you'd be better off with a crash box and a watertight bulkhead.






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