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Some seamanship topics for discussion

lifelines jacklines pumps survival sailing Lifelines dewatering pumps survival sailing

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#1 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:20 AM

Some thoughts on 4 topics . . . .very first draft, really just the ideas, not been edited at all . . . would be interested in comments on the ideas, not on the spelling, grammar or line editing (yet).

 

The first two are somewhat related:

 

Spectra Lifelines

 

Jacklines and Tethers

 

This one is not much discussed: Dewatering pumps

 

And this one is frequently discussed, but most have quite limited real world experience: Survival sailing



#2 Steam Flyer

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:19 AM

Some thoughts on 4 topics . . . .very first draft, really just the ideas, not been edited at all . . . would be interested in comments on the ideas, not on the spelling, grammar or line editing (yet).

 

The first two are somewhat related:

 

Spectra Lifelines

 

Jacklines and Tethers

 

This one is not much discussed: Dewatering pumps

 

And this one is frequently discussed, but most have quite limited real world experience: Survival sailing

 

Very informative; I am interested in putting Spectra lifelines on my  boat so this is timely & informative

 

Pumps- also excellent and covers the ground quite well. Most pump ratings, especially 12VDC ones, are quite optimistic. There are 120VAC "trash pumps," and also 120VAC portable submersible pumps. These are an excellent piece of emergency equipment, useful for everything from pumping out your boat, to pumping out your neighbor's boat, to putting out brush fires. You mention accounting for starting loads, very good... that's something often overlooked. The unreliability of portable gas-powered pump is understated... in both engineering and firefighting I have never seen one that was reliable to be a first-line unit.

 

One possible solution to pumping/dewatering is an installed eductor. Navy ships have these, they are extremely effective and can take pressure from any source and turn it into a high-volume outflow. It's true that an engine cooling intake would be dubious piped to the bilge, yet raw water out could be piped to an eductor and give 5+ times the GPH outflow as the engine pump. I don't know of any yachts having such a thing though!

 

FB- Doug



#3 Mud sailor

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:56 AM

On some of the powerboats I was involved in we set up the main dewatering pump (AC) to also be able to be used as a fire pump.....always surprised not to see it more often

#4 Weyalan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:31 AM

I would avise caution in proclaiming that a splice will have 90-100% of the rope's breaking strength (c.f. para 2 of p2 of Spectra lifeline document). Do you have evidence to back this up? If you do, I'd love to see it.

I certainly don't claim to be any sort of expert, but in my limited experience, while a splice is definitely stronger than a knot (and in some cases significantly stronger), over 90% is well-nigh impossible to achieve, particularly in a double-braid spectra core (poly cover) line. I have had a couple of my spectra splices (spectra core double braid) destructively tested by an impartial 3-rd party and these have not achieved 90% of manufacturer's quoted breaking strength (although I admit to being an enthusiastic amateur rather than a professional rigger, and the rope in question was of unknown age).
 
As an aside, the whole issue of splice strength relative to break strength is complicated by the fact that it is kinda hard to establish the breaking strength of the line (not without a splice, anyway). Additionally, ask a manufaturer if a line will still have its quoted breaking strength if it has been stored in a warehouse for a year and they'll likely start to squirm...   

#5 sailSAK

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:03 AM

One possible solution to pumping/dewatering is an installed eductor. Navy ships have these, they are extremely effective and can take pressure from any source and turn it into a high-volume outflow. It's true that an engine cooling intake would be dubious piped to the bilge, yet raw water out could be piped to an eductor and give 5+ times the GPH outflow as the engine pump. I don't know of any yachts having such a thing though!

 

FB- Doug

You need a pretty decent pump to begin with to power an educator.  I could barely get a 1" one to work with an unlimited 80 psi from a 1" hose, so from that experience I doubt one could be readily adapted to a yacht.  They do work great on navy ships, but the pump itself probably weighs more than most of our boats not to mention the generator required to power it.  Smaller versions run from gas or diesel driven portable pumps, but again not very practice.  One of the main reason they are used on ships is that they are powered from the fire main, which is hard plumbed and available in nearly every compartment.  This way an educator can drain a compartment just by turning on its water source.  Much more cost effective and efficient than have a pump in every space.  What I learned in mechanics "A" school is "it is easier to blow than suck"



#6 New Morning

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:56 AM

Jack lines & tethers - I think the first question is "who is your audience"?  The approaches for cruising boats (short handed, more concerned with safety, more cost sensitive) are necessarily going to be different than for racing (more crew, more concern for not inhibiting performance, less cost sensitive).

 

My first reaction to reading the piece was that it needed a more thorough and illustrated explanation of system design and usage, and less on sewing.  The critical issue is the design and usage of a system which is blatantly easy to use; anything else doesn't get used and the rest of this is moot.

 

I believe that polyester webbing is the equivalent of cotton sails; it's absorbs water and expands like crazy.  Why not just state that they should be built from spectra?  Then you can focus on splices instead of sewing.

 

I completely agree about halyards and hoisting, but the notion of cutting away the lifelines potentially puts the rescuer at risk as well.  And on boats with SS lifelines it's not happening anyway.  Who is the audience - racers with spectra lifelines, or a cruiser with a Beneteau 42?  You are on the bleeding edge of cruisers.

 

I suggest you break this thread into four threads, one for each of your topics as following the "thread" on any one subject is going to be a challenge and I suspect there is a lot of good commentary to come out of SA on these subjects.



#7 Weyalan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:05 AM

... but the notion of cutting away the lifelines potentially puts the rescuer at risk as well. And on boats with SS lifelines it's not happening anyway...

It is moderately common practice (around here) for boats with stainless steel lifelines to have an eye in in the aft end of the lifeline (instead of the more conventional rigging screw) and then use spectra or dyneema cord to lash between the eye and the stern pulpit (keeping the lashed section short). This allows the lashing to be easily cut for a MOB rescue. The lashing is changed annually.



#8 Ajax

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:25 PM

Ok, it took me a while to get through these. I wanted to take my time and be thorough.

 

For my personal situation, the "jacklines/tethers" and "survival sailing" papers were the most interesting, and most applicable.

 

I don't feel that I can power any serious de-watering equipment on my (relatively) small boat, so my focus is more on preventing/stopping water ingress than "keeping up" with it. I'm very interested in making one of those flexible 2'X2' patches we were discussing in the earlier thread, where Ciao was lost.

 

In "Jacklines & Tethers", if I understand you correctly the philosophy you're explaining, is that jacklines are used mainly for travel, and then hardpoints are used at work locations. Some hardpoints will have permanent tethers on them, for the workers. I like this approach. As a newbie, I found it very useful that you specified materials and construction (V92 polyester thread, and stitch count)  On a smaller boat like mine, with a beam of less than 10', I can't decide if a centerline jackline, or port/stbd jacklines are the way to go. You're absolutely correct when you say that systems that are cumbersome to use, will be little used.

 

In "Survival Sailing", you've answered a few questions that I've always had, such as which orientations are best in really bad weather, I appreciate the breakdown into 3 techniques in bow-on and stern-on orientations. I think that this article assumes that you have steady access to weather information, like weather fax or as BJ likes to say- "pactorbator".  How else can you know which direction to drive, in order to get out of bad weather? I also appreciate the insight in how to deploy a drogue and the different types of drogues.

 

For Survival Sailing, I have the following questions:

 

1. Is there a way to determine the direction which leads to the fastest exit from a storm without weather communications?

2. Do I understand correctly that "survival" takes precedence over making way towards a destination, even if that destination is a safe harbor?  You may be forced to drive away from your destination, in order to exit a storm, and "survive".

3. Is standard VHF marine radio adequate for coastal sailing?  On the US East Coast, with the current USCG setup of towers and repeaters, what is the approximate maximum distance off of the coast where I might have a reasonable chance of receiving NOAA weax channels, or contacting the USCG?

 

Thanks.



#9 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

One possible solution to pumping/dewatering is an installed eductor.

 

Do you have a link (with specs) to one that is roughly the size for one of our sailboats? 

 

 

On some of the powerboats I was involved in we set up the main dewatering pump (AC) to also be able to be used as a fire pump.....always surprised not to see it more often

 

Good thought to add, although firefighting is a whole big topics that deserves its own article, but about which I know very little.

 

Splices . . . strength

There have been several splice tests (by several of the mfg's) on spectra single braid but none that I am aware of on spectra double braid.  It is easy to lower the strength of these splices - by not using a long enough burry, by a sloppy 'lock' in the Brummel, by using to small a bend radius, etc).  NER is conducting some tests right now, related to this article, on both the lock stitched and Brummel splices (I think in both single braid and double braid)

 

 "who is your audience"?  

 

 more thorough and illustrated explanation of system design and usage, and less on sewing. 

 

 Why not just state that they should be built from spectra? 

 

I completely agree about halyards and hoisting, but the notion of cutting away the lifelines potentially puts the rescuer at risk as well.  And on boats with SS lifelines it's not happening anyway.

 

I suggest you break this thread into four threads, .

 For Jacklines and Tethers, the initial audience was actually racers (the topics were proposed to me by the US Sailing OSR group). But they seem relevant to cruisers.

 

What specifically do you want to see in more detail on the design? Since boat deck layouts are so different I find it hard to see how to get more specific. 

 

I am honestly not sure about pure spectra jacklines, for shock loading issues.  They are allowed by the OSR's.  What do others think about the need for some amount of elasticity in the jacklines?

 

The sewing perhaps should be a 'sidebar', but its there because #1 a lot of the sewing I have seen is clearly inadequate, and #2 a couple people have said that its impossible to sew spectra cord strongly, which is wrong, the way I have described is only one way, but is how North does it.

 

Even on SS lifelines, I like lashing terminations at least on the aft end. Agree there is a bit of a 'safety trade-off' when cutting them, but cutting them will reduce by almost 50% the distance and time required to get the MOB back on board, which has been a real struggle in most of the incidents I know the details of.  I would be curious to hear other opinions on this dropping the life lines vs not?

 

I did not want to start 4 threads, and I am fine plowing thru combined ideas, but if someone else wants to break one or more topic out into separate thread(s) that's fine.



#10 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:45 PM

Ajax . . .

>>flexible 2'X2' patches we were discussing in the earlier thread, where Ciao was lost.

 

I missed this . . . can you extract and post here a snip that described the 2 x 2 patches. That's again probably a whole topic to itself.

 

>>I think that this article assumes that you have steady access to weather information.  How else can you know which direction to drive, in order to get out of bad weather?  1. Is there a way to determine the direction which leads to the fastest exit from a storm without weather communications?

 

Look up Buys Ballot's law.  That's just one tool. There is actually quite a bit you can determine from deck, without external weather. Clouds can tell you a lot also. Seamen did deck level forecasting for centuries. It's worth knowing.  That all said, external weather gives you a 1000% more information.

 

However the #1 thing is to get out of ocean current and shallow water and continental shelf edges and you should know which direction to go for those without extra external information.

 

2. Do I understand correctly that "survival" takes precedence over making way towards a destination, even if that destination is a safe harbor?  You may be forced to drive away from your destination, in order to exit a storm, and "survive".

 

Yes, exactly. In some situations you are in fact often safer going away from 'safe harbor'. It is certainly situation dependent.

 

3. Is standard VHF marine radio adequate for coastal sailing?  On the US East Coast, with the current USCG setup of towers and repeaters, what is the approximate maximum distance off of the coast where I might have a reasonable chance of receiving NOAA weax channels, or contacting the USCG?

 

One of our radio experts will know this better than I. The official spec for Rescue21 is "minimum performance goal of communicating by DSC and voice with a 1-watt VHF radio six feet off the water up to 20 miles offshore along 98 percent of the 95,000 miles of shoreline".  SO your 25watt radio at your masthead is going to do way better than 20 miles.  I believe I have had contact 100 miles off.



#11 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:17 PM

Estar: Good thread

Some thoughts:

1: Pumps. I am lately much more interested in bulheads and flotation then big pumps. If I really have a 2" thru-hull let go, I'll stick a plug in it. For the proverbial 0100 "what the hell is going on" flooding emergency, I would rather the boat NOT SINK. On my own boat I can seal off the area under the V-berth and then the chain locker for 2 watertight compartments forward and with some doing seal off the last couple feet aft that contain the rudder post and steering gear. That way the 2 most likely sinking scenarios - hitting something or losing the rudder - are sealed into small areas. I actually don't know if these compartments would keep the boat afloat if the main cabin area were holed, but it would sure help. A long time ago I got in inflatable seat for my dinghy that is basically a tube about 1 foot in diameter and 3 or 4 feet long. I can blow it up fast with my electric dinghy inflator and I bet enough of them blown up in the cabin would keep a boat floating.

 

2: Tethers and MOB. You are utterly screwed if you fall over with a tether and NO ONE STOPS THE BOAT*. Shorthanded sailors really need to think this one through. Of all the thousands of miles I have sailed wearing one, there is only one time it did anything for me. I was steering with about 30 knots and an 8 foot rolling swell on the beam at night. It was easy sailing until a rogue wave from dead aft lifted me right over the wheel and launched me at the cabin. My tether came taught right before my head would have made a nice dent in the cabin and I fell onto the cockpit floor instead of breaking my head open. I have 3 times dealt with a MOB situation. Two were people and one was a dog (DOB?). It was a HUGE PITA all three times to get the MOB back onboard without hurting them. Also with modern technology there is no reason for a MOB not to have a waterproof VHF, PLB, or both.  This raises another issue - you fall off halfway to Hawaii with a PLB. The remaining crew need to know how to raise the USCG and ask where you are. AFAIK you - on the boat - are not finding a PLB by yourself without equipment almost no one has. Thus a VHF and/or AIS-MOB gear is a big help too.

 

* I once heard a hilarious MayDay call where a women in a panic called for help with her MOB husband. She could not get him back in the boat and had no idea where she was. She did have a line on him though. After about 7 different boats played 20 questions with her including things like "where do you live" and "how do you get to the boat", someone figured out about where she had to be. She then told everyone that her husband was having a hard time hanging on and did anyone think she should SLOW DOWN?  I think 4 different people yelled STOP THE BOAT at the same time. SHe was soon after located, husband put back on boat, and all was well  :lol:  :o



#12 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

For Survival Sailing, I have the following questions:

 

2. Do I understand correctly that "survival" takes precedence over making way towards a destination, even if that destination is a safe harbor?  You may be forced to drive away from your destination, in order to exit a storm, and "survive".

 

YES!!! Captain Bligh, after getting kicked off the Bounty, sailed his dinghy about 1500 miles downwind to avoid beating it to death trying to make port 300 miles upwind. The newer Bounty that was just sunk would have been fine far offshore away from the hurricane. They were pinned in between a storm and Cape Haterass and had no maneuvering room.

 

3. Is standard VHF marine radio adequate for coastal sailing?  On the US East Coast, with the current USCG setup of towers and repeaters, what is the approximate maximum distance off of the coast where I might have a reasonable chance of receiving NOAA weax channels, or contacting the USCG?

Get this and you are good: http://www.westmarin...&classNum=50207

Thanks.



#13 Expatriated

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:48 PM

I have to confess that I cannot understand why ISAF allowed Spectra lifelines. While all lifelines can break Stainless lines usually give a decent indication of wearing out and have a good immunity to chafe. Are synthetic lifelines allowed by RORC ?



#14 Tucky

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:59 PM

I really like the permanent tether idea. I had never seen the statistic before about people going overboard when working rather than moving, but that has always been my approach. I have one of the dual tethers and hard points to attach them to all over the boat. I very rarely rig my jacklines. I'm not sure i would switch in general to moving around with no tether on me and have tethers at key points, but a tether at the bow would be smart for me in a lot of conditions.



#15 kimbottles

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

I really like the permanent tether idea. I had never seen the statistic before about people going overboard when working rather than moving, but that has always been my approach. I have one of the dual tethers and hard points to attach them to all over the boat. I very rarely rig my jacklines. I'm not sure i would switch in general to moving around with no tether on me and have tethers at key points, but a tether at the bow would be smart for me in a lot of conditions.

As we get older (SWMBO 66 & me 65) we find that we are much more conscious of staying on board than in our wild past.

We always wear inflatable vests now and I plan to rig jack-lines on the Sliver in any conditions other than gentle breeze.

I have been looking at inflatable vests with built in harness.



#16 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:20 PM

I just posted a revised version of the jackline piece, to the same web link as in the OP.

 

I have incorporated a few additional ideas, and revised the structure to more clearly separate the system design, use, and constructional details.

 

I understand that many end users will not be so interested in the constructional stuff, but #1 I think you should be, because a lot of this stuff is inadequately built and you should know what to look for ("The devil is in the details"), and #2 my prior article on life lines was actually used by quite a number of professionals building spectra lifelines.  They appreciated a semi-official (US Sailing) best practice document, so that they did not have to make it up on their own.  So, I definitely feel it's valuable to leave the details in, but have tried to make it more friendly to those who just want to think about the system design and set-up.

 

What more should/can I say about system design?



#17 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:25 PM

I have to confess that I cannot understand why ISAF allowed Spectra lifelines. While all lifelines can break Stainless lines usually give a decent indication of wearing out and have a good immunity to chafe. Are synthetic lifelines allowed by RORC ?

No, to this point, RORC has written their own prescription, modifying the iSAF rule,  only allowing wire and not spectra.  And in the US, the CCA Bermuda race has followed them.



#18 whinging pom

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:39 PM

On my elderlyish 37' boat SWMBO and I adopt this system, SWMBO and always sail doublehanded:

 

Polyester webbing jackstays are rigged down the sidedecks.  There are large shackles on the jackstays to which the the tethers, with 3 hooks are clipped. (the shackle makes everything slide easily)

 

2 x tethers at the forward end of the cockpit.

2 x tethers at the aft end.

1 x thether right on the stern so the vane gear can be reached safely. It's handy when I want a pee.

 

We move from one to the other, never becoming unclipped.

 

We follow the RORC recommendations,  Clip on when:

Alone on deck

Reefed

Wind over 25kts

At night

Visibility below 1 mile.

 

Following Estar's suggestions I'm thinking of having a length of spectra running through the sidedecks shackle to different strong points to add security.



#19 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

Following up on Ajax's question/comment . . . . I don't want to get into weather forecasting because that's a book length topic on its own, BUT I do think it would be useful in the article to be able to suggest the two very best articles or books - one on 'deck level forecasting' (eg just looking around and at the barograph and clouds, etc, without external weather information), and one using external weather.  Given the topic of the article they should obviously be strong on storms.  So, any suggestions/recommendations for the two best easily available weather resources to recommend (I would prefer to recommend freely available articles or books or on-line presentations that someone can go read anytime rather than seminars or presentations that you have to sign up for).



#20 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:03 PM

Following Estar's suggestions I'm thinking of having a length of spectra running through the sidedecks shackle to different strong points to add security.

In the updated draft I just posted I did include an interesting suggestion from a Volvo sailor.  They apparently have webbing loops sewn into their jacklines at strategic work station points.  These are low enough profile that the clip can slide over them, but when they are working (rather than moving) they can clip to the loops and be stopped from being washed down the full length of the deck/jackline.  That's particularly useful on boats like the Volvo's that have so much green water on deck, but it's not hard to do (just a little sewing) and might be useful sometime for 'the rest of us' as an alternative to being clipped to a hard point.



#21 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

BTW - I have a padeye right outside the companionway. Rough weather/night SOP is clip on, THEN go outside. IMHO you are vulnerable when first coming on deck. Also the never-ending problem of falling off while peeing can be mitigated by peeing from the leeward shrouds. You can wrap an arm around each shroud and still hold on to your johnson B)



#22 kimbottles

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:33 PM

BTW - I have a padeye right outside the companionway. Rough weather/night SOP is clip on, THEN go outside. IMHO you are vulnerable when first coming on deck. Also the never-ending problem of falling off while peeing can be mitigated by peeing from the leeward shrouds. You can wrap an arm around each shroud and still hold on to your johnson B)

Do you mean people pee over the side WITHOUT holding onto the leeward shrouds? I thought that was a mandatory requirement.



#23 Slick470

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:14 PM

BTW - I have a padeye right outside the companionway. Rough weather/night SOP is clip on, THEN go outside. IMHO you are vulnerable when first coming on deck. Also the never-ending problem of falling off while peeing can be mitigated by peeing from the leeward shrouds. You can wrap an arm around each shroud and still hold on to your johnson B)

Do you mean people pee over the side WITHOUT holding onto the leeward shrouds? I thought that was a mandatory requirement.

For those that run overlapping head sails you run the risk of peeing on your sails when going upwind. Still better than falling off I guess. If you're really worried about staying on the boat... there is always the bucket method...



#24 Ishmael

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:17 PM

 

BTW - I have a padeye right outside the companionway. Rough weather/night SOP is clip on, THEN go outside. IMHO you are vulnerable when first coming on deck. Also the never-ending problem of falling off while peeing can be mitigated by peeing from the leeward shrouds. You can wrap an arm around each shroud and still hold on to your johnson B)

Do you mean people pee over the side WITHOUT holding onto the leeward shrouds? I thought that was a mandatory requirement.

For those that run overlapping head sails you run the risk of peeing on your sails when going upwind. Still better than falling off I guess. If you're really worried about staying on the boat... there is always the bucket method...

I don't know if my shrouds are too far inboard or my dick is too short (or both) but I can't comfortably reach the rail while hanging onto the shrouds, unless I hang on with one hand, which makes the other hand way too busy.



#25 WHL

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:45 PM

Although you mention a quick release at the harness end of the tether, there's no mention of a recommended snap hook at the boat end of the tether. e.g. The Gibb style locking gate (easy to use with cold hands and guarantees it won't attach itself to another line laying on deck, parallel to a jackline), or the Wichard style which needs more grip to open, and less friendly with cold hands. The sprung gate on cheap carabiners should be avoided entirely.

#26 kdh

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:58 PM

Evans, I've always considered your advice on dealing with heavy weather in modern boats the best there is. In case it's helpful, here's a response to a question I had for you in this area that I saved.
 

kdh, on 10 January 2011 - 12:14 PM, said:
how would you have settled the boat down to be less susceptible to a wave breaking on the quarter and spinning the boat? Slow down but continue running? Forereach or otherwise go bow to the waves?
 

Evans's response:

The degrees of tactical freedom are much greater than usually discussed. I will probably not get them all here, but
 
First you have your course. In this situation I was simply pointing the boat at the barn door, which happened to be almost DDW. But there was this indication of some wave energy from the starboard quarter and about a 15 degree course change to port would have protected us from it better.
 
I am bad about this. I like to point the boat at our destination. IF we are going downwind, we tend to settle the boat down as well as possible for downwind, and if we are going upwind we do whatever is necessary to feel good in that direction. Only once in 15 years that I remember have we turned and gone in the opposite direction ( we had a 956mb low go over us south of the Falklands, one of only two times I have been scared at sea).
 
Second, you have the combination of boat speed and steering method (hand vs autopilot), which are related - the boat speed will effect how violently you will spin and roll. We were surfing to 16kts under autopilot. I should have either slowed down or hand steered. After the pop/spin, I hand steered, still going fast for a couple hours, and I could anticipate the cross crests and the boat was ok, but I could only do it for so long and then we needed to slow down to let the autopilot have at it.
 
Third, you have sail selection/combinations. Some are self correcting (like double poled headsails), and some are autocrashing (like just a reefed main). I think we were running with just our large staysail, would have been better balanced and self-correcting with the smaller storm jib to leeward and a little furling jib poled out to windward, or putting the smaller sail further forward. Double headsails are a 'lost art' but they really settle down the boat balance and steering when running fast. What we actually did was first switch to the smaller storm jib alone, and then to bare poles (don't remember if the wind built but it probably did as we did ok with bare poles). If we have not already done it (but we probably have), moving the leads as far outboard as possible and forward some will help. Some people recommend a really small stay sail sheeted in absolutely flat on the center line for this purpose, we have such a sail but have never used it.
 
Fourth, there are various drag options. A drogue might have been overkill in this situation and would certainly have killed our excellent boat speed, but a simple warp might have had enough pressure to keep the stern enough into the waves without killing the boat speed to much, hard to say without trying it. Sometimes warps help and sometimes they make things worse.
 
Fifth, there is routing (different from the more immediate course sailed). I made a mistake in this case by not looking at the bottom contour closely (actually I did not look at it at all) and the route I had picked had us crossing the self edge twice (it made a curve) and kept us along it for way longer than we needed to be. Should have picked a way thru that got us over as cleanly and fast as possible.
 
Sixth, there is crew attention - we felt good and were getting close to our first shower and meal out in a month, so honestly were not paying as much attention to the 'now' as we should have been. One of the things I have learned is that a double handed crew just simply can't pay 100% attention 7 x 24, so you need to pick the spots where you are saving energy vs where you are going to spend energy. This was an obvious spot where we should have been paying more attention than average. I always know we have to be on top of our game when we get into shore where there is traffic and hard bits to hit and I always plan ahead to be rested for that bit, but I had not thought about the shelf edge crossing as another focused 'attention point'. 
 
On a lighter or smaller boat you could probably do something useful with weight distribution, but Hawk would probably not notice
 
That's what comes immediately to mind in terms of settling the boat down. My approach is not scientific. I just keep trying stuff until the boat feels right and good. The offshore racers here should have more and better suggestions, because its certainly slow to wipe out but they can't take the easiest courses and slow down or head in a different direction. 

#27 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:06 PM

Although you mention a quick release at the harness end of the tether, there's no mention of a recommended snap hook at the boat end of the tether. e.g. The Gibb style locking gate (easy to use with cold hands and guarantees it won't attach itself to another line laying on deck, parallel to a jackline), or the Wichard style which needs more grip to open, and less friendly with cold hands. The sprung gate on cheap carabiners should be avoided entirely.

All good points, but extremely well covered elsewhere.

 

I actually don't know what the best jackline end clip is. I have been using the Same Gibb hooks for about 20 years, occasionally rebuilding the whole tether concepts above them, and have not tried any of the other hooks. So you still think the Gibb is best?



#28 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:14 PM

Evans, I've always considered your advice on dealing with heavy weather in modern boats the best there is. In case it's helpful, here's a response to a question I had for you in this area that I saved.
 

kdh, on 10 January 2011 - 12:14 PM, said:
how would you have settled the boat down to be less susceptible to a wave breaking on the quarter and spinning the boat? Slow down but continue running? Forereach or otherwise go bow to the waves?
 

Evans's response:

The degrees of tactical freedom are much greater than usually discussed. I will probably not get them all here, but.... 

So, KDH, as the reader, can you pick out for me what specific thoughts (if any) you see of special value in that, which are not in the survival piece? If you can pick out the ideas, then I can try to incorporate them in.

 

This piece started from the fact that the ISAF OSR's strongly recommend (but not require) a drogue or para-anchor, but most racers I know don't have any clue when to use on,e or what to do with one, or which one to try.  So, I was initially trying to address that, but felt I had to put in context of all the survival options. So, that's the background of the piece.  Basically I am trying to provide best practices to a few of the more complex or less well understood OSR requirements and recommendations.

 

By the way, this is entirely pro-bono on my part.  I am getting nothing out of this, except 'an opportunity to contribute'.



#29 timothy22

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:16 PM

(Too?) much Info about eductor pumps. We used them all the time in the power plants. Air, steam and water powered.  

 

http://www.clarkreli...oad/e-200-1.pdf

 

Common basement sump backup pump. Ballpark 12 gpm at 7ft haed

 

http://www.libertypu...?p=77&s=23&c=14



#30 WHL

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:17 PM

Although you mention a quick release at the harness end of the tether, there's no mention of a recommended snap hook at the boat end of the tether. e.g. The Gibb style locking gate (easy to use with cold hands and guarantees it won't attach itself to another line laying on deck, parallel to a jackline), or the Wichard style which needs more grip to open, and less friendly with cold hands. The sprung gate on cheap carabiners should be avoided entirely.

All good points, but extremely well covered elsewhere.
 
I actually don't know what the best jackline end clip is. I have been using the Same Gibb hooks for about 20 years, occasionally rebuilding the whole tether concepts above them, and have not tried any of the other hooks. So you still think the Gibb is best?
Yes the authentic Gibb hooks are still my preferred snaphook. The West Marine Asian knock-offs have sharp edges on the gate release. If it weren't for the OSR rules for overloading flags and dated labels on the tether, if I were only cruising, I would have rebuilt the many Gibb snaphooks I've cut off old tethers.
Anyone here wanting Gibb snap hooks to build their own non-OSR tether, can PM me. I have spares.

#31 Estar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:58 PM

^^ just as an aside . . .  .I can find no spec anywhere for the required tether  'flags'. It is definitely not in the tether ISO, which I have seen, and US Sailing seems unaware of the existence of a spec. So, I believe you can sew a flag into your own tether however you want and no inspector can say it's wrong. . . . so just sew a bit of colored cloth into a back fold of the tether, and build away with those hooks.  If anyone actually has an official spec for the flag I would be interested in seeing it. 



#32 WHL

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:42 AM

Estar,
The ISO 12401 does specify the tether's construction but no definitive spec and what would show as overloading. section 6 mentions markings on labels and compliance with standards. OSR mentions two dates for compliance and mentions the overload flag. The problem with home grown solutions is passng a sefety inspection without evidence of compliance. I'd hate to be the guy with a functional homegrown, but gets the boat disqualified at a post race safety inspection for no proof of compliance.

I think the authors of the OSR expect crews to buy commercially manufactured, certified and dated tethers with ISO and EN references on labels.

#33 Presuming Ed

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:16 AM

Are synthetic lifelines allowed by RORC ?

No. http://www.rorc.org/...ice-of-race.pdf

 

3.14.6 Lifeline Minimum Diameters, Required Materials, Specifications
a) This is replaced by a RORC prescription: Lifelines shall be of stranded stainless steel wire.
b] The minimum diameter is specified in table 8 below. 
c) Stainless steel lifelines shall be uncoated and used without close-fitting sleeving, however, temporary sleeving may be fitted provided it is regularly removed for inspection.
d) When stainless wire is used, Grade 316 is recommended. 
e) RORC Prescriptions prohibit the use of HMPE Dyneema/Spectra, so 3.14.6 e) no longer applies.


#34 Presuming Ed

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:52 AM

2: Tethers and MOB. You are utterly screwed if you fall over with a tether and NO ONE STOPS THE BOAT*. Shorthanded sailors really need to think this one through. 

As the Lion fatality showed. This is one attempt at a better lifejacket/harness.  Not actually sure if its commercially available yet. 

 



#35 Ajax

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:33 PM

What is purpose of a tether flag?



#36 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:36 PM

Peeing off the stern is common and not usually as safe. As for pee on deck or the sails, all the times I did this there was enough water coming over the deck it was a non-issue. There is an urban legend around that some huge percentage of dead bodies fished out by the USCG have their flies down.

 

In other news, by brother once decided to try all the traditional ways to retrieve a MOB that you read about in all the sailing books. They got volunteers to jump over and started trying the various methods. They quickly gave up because they were all going to do some damage to the victim. If you haven't tried it, you have NO IDEA how hard it is to get a heavy/injured/weak/cold person back on your boat. I once had a fat lady overboard when I was a sailing instructor and had to tow her back to Annapolis :o We could NOT get her back on boat without really hurting her.

BTW - I have a padeye right outside the companionway. Rough weather/night SOP is clip on, THEN go outside. IMHO you are vulnerable when first coming on deck. Also the never-ending problem of falling off while peeing can be mitigated by peeing from the leeward shrouds. You can wrap an arm around each shroud and still hold on to your johnson B)

Do you mean people pee over the side WITHOUT holding onto the leeward shrouds? I thought that was a mandatory requirement.



#37 whinging pom

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:48 PM

For pee relief it helps if your boat has a stern deck and lots of crap to hold on to.

 

IMG_0702012.jpg



#38 Ajax

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:01 PM

K_I_S:

 

A year or two ago, I punted my daughters off of my boat, while at the dock to test my inflatable PFDs and to learn how to use my LifeSling to recover a MOB.  I detached my vang, and attached it to the main halyard. I used the vang to raise her until I ran out of steam, then I used the mast winch to grind her up the rest of the way. I directed her to remain limp so that I could get the full experience of dealing with an incapacitated person.

 

It was indeed, difficult work. It'd be a real bitch for someone double-handing whose spouse goes over, 2 or more on deck, can do it easily, if they have their wits about them, and a bit of cleverness with the standing rigging.



#39 Estar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:58 PM

Estar,
The ISO 12401 does specify the tether's construction but no definitive spec and what would show as overloading. section 6 mentions markings on labels and compliance with standards. OSR mentions two dates for compliance and mentions the overload flag. The problem with home grown solutions is passng a sefety inspection without evidence of compliance. I'd hate to be the guy with a functional homegrown, but gets the boat disqualified at a post race safety inspection for no proof of compliance.

I think the authors of the OSR expect crews to buy commercially manufactured, certified and dated tethers with ISO and EN references on labels.

 

I know for sure the US OSR folks don't like DIY solutions.  But I figure that's their problem. If DIY meets all the published specs it should be accepted, and no inspector has the right to reject it. I personally figure it is perfectly acceptable to sew in a flag with say 70 stitches of V92 (which then might break at 1000lbs), and I can't see any way an inspector could challenge that.  But yes, buying a store bought one, would eliminate the small possibility of a debate with an inspector but also perhaps give you a less good tether.

 

I don't believe there is any requirement for 'proof of compliance' for tethers (eg a written certificate from some authority saying they meet a particular spec). As far as I can see, on tethers at least, you are "innocent until proven guilty". And with no spec for the flag it is impossible to prove you guilty.

 

I have been curious on the commercial tethers when the flag will open, or even it is consistent between different tether manufacturers, but have seen no testing on it.

 

 

What is purpose of a tether flag?

 

To show if the tether has been 'overloaded'. The stitching over the flag is suppose to rip at some load, under the rated load of the tether, and the flag be exposed, telling you its time to toss the tether. It's not a terrible idea, but there were very very few cases of broken tether lines (many more failed tether hooks), so I would have thought it better to leave as an optional 'value added feature' rather than required.  The commercial manufacturers love this, primarily because it both causes angst for the DIY groups (as WHL says), and because it created a new required feature that meant people had to throw out all their old tethers. There is unfortunately quite a bit of commercial influence on the OSR's (as I have seen with my life line pieces).

 

-------------------------------------

 

I have posted a new draft of the survival sailing piece (to the same link as in the OP).  I was asked to include a section on what NOT to do  . . . what were the 3 most common mistakes leading to incidents.



#40 Presuming Ed

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:27 PM

Peeing off the stern is common and not usually as safe. As for pee on deck or the sails, all the times I did this there was enough water coming over the deck it was a non-issue. There is an urban legend around that some huge percentage of dead bodies fished out by the USCG have their flies down.

Just pee in the cockpit, if it's that rough. 



#41 Presuming Ed

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:34 PM

I have been curious on the commercial tethers when the flag will open, or even it is consistent between different tether manufacturers, but have seen no testing on it.

What are the specs for Via Ferrata tethers? I sort of assume sailing equipment suppliers are using the same specs, and same sewing equipment? Slightly different usages, though. 



#42 Ajax

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:45 PM

Ah!  In the Navy, we also used harnesses and tethers on the deck of the submarine. As you can imagine, footing is a challeng on the cylindrical deck of a rolling, pitching, attack submarine.

 

Our tethers had a packet sewn into them called a "Dyna-Brake".  The premise was, if you shock loaded the tether, the Dyna Brake would pop, slowing you down, and also served as an indicator that the tether was done. Basically, it was just a little more tether material sewn up into this "packet" covered with black leather or vinyl, that would extend if you broke the stitching.

 

I think something like this could be a good idea in sailing tethers. In fact, here ya go:

 

HarnessTip004a.jpg

 

Estar,
The ISO 12401 does specify the tether's construction but no definitive spec and what would show as overloading. section 6 mentions markings on labels and compliance with standards. OSR mentions two dates for compliance and mentions the overload flag. The problem with home grown solutions is passng a sefety inspection without evidence of compliance. I'd hate to be the guy with a functional homegrown, but gets the boat disqualified at a post race safety inspection for no proof of compliance.

I think the authors of the OSR expect crews to buy commercially manufactured, certified and dated tethers with ISO and EN references on labels.

 

I know for sure the US OSR folks don't like DIY solutions.  But I figure that's their problem. If DIY meets all the published specs it should be accepted, and no inspector has the right to reject it. I personally figure it is perfectly acceptable to sew in a flag with say 70 stitches of V92 (which then might break at 1000lbs), and I can't see any way an inspector could challenge that.  But yes, buying a store bought one, would eliminate the small possibility of a debate with an inspector but also perhaps give you a less good tether.

 

I don't believe there is any requirement for 'proof of compliance' for tethers (eg a written certificate from some authority saying they meet a particular spec). As far as I can see, on tethers at least, you are "innocent until proven guilty". And with no spec for the flag it is impossible to prove you guilty.

 

I have been curious on the commercial tethers when the flag will open, or even it is consistent between different tether manufacturers, but have seen no testing on it.

 

 

>What is purpose of a tether flag?

 

To show if the tether has been 'overloaded'. The stitching over the flag is suppose to rip at some load, under the rated load of the tether, and the flag be exposed, telling you its time to toss the tether. It's not a terrible idea, but there were very very few cases of broken tether lines (many more failed tether hooks), so I would have thought it better to leave as an optional 'value added feature' rather than required.  The commercial manufacturers love this, primarily because it both causes angst for the DIY groups (as WHL says), and because it created a new required feature that meant people had to throw out all their old tethers. There is unfortunately quite a bit of commercial influence on the OSR's (as I have seen with my life line pieces).

 

-------------------------------------

 

I have posted a new draft of the survival sailing piece (to the same link as in the OP).  I was asked to include a section on what NOT to do  . . . what were the 3 most common mistakes leading to incidents.

 



#43 Ajax

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:13 PM

Estar:

 

You asked for the conversation regarding DC mats for covering larger holes to stop or slow water ingress. Here is the text:

 

I said:

The only thing that I could see doing differently (and they may have tried this) was to apply a "belly band" over the hole with a heavy duty, poly tarp to stop the water ingress to the point where it was manageable, and be towed to port.

We applied belly bands over the open ballast tank gratings on submarines in the water, when we needed to open the MBT vents, so that I worker could climb down inside to perform maintenance. This was done when a drydock was unavailable or the work was just too minor to justify a dry-docking. The water pressure pushes the belly band into place. You could even smear Perma-Tex around the perimeter of the breach (yes, underwater on the outside of the hull), and then put the belly band in place. The Perma-Tex would adhere the belly band to the hull and seal the perimeter.

I realize that not everyone has the physical stamina to do this on a pitching, yawing sailboat at sea, but some could pull it off.

 

Then No.6 had this excellent reply:

For years we had a Damage Control Mat (DC Mat) on the boat just for this purpose. Lived under the V-berth, laying on the hull. It was about a yard square, made of PVC coated dacron cloth. It was two ply with a semi- stiff layer of foam inside it...maybe an inch thick. Corners were heavily reinforced and had grommets to run lines to tie it in place once positioned. I think if I were to make a new one if we were planning to do some serious offshore work, I would craft the replacement with dacron webbing in the corners rather than brass grommets. The foam would give it some body so it just wouldn't get sucked into a large hole in the hull. The PVC, aside from making it water tight, would sort of stick to the hull making a bond much like plastic wrap on a smooth surface. We made it specifically for either hitting something with the bow section puncturing a hole in the hull or if the rudder was torn away from the hull. We decided on a square yard as it would be big enough for a fairly significant breach but small enough to easily stow. Figure anything this DC mat could not cover was pretty much a fatal blow anyhow. Never had to use it but did try it out when new to see how well it deployed. It tolerated 4-5 knots of way on, which was a pleasant surprise.

 

Quoted from:

http://forums.sailin...=143568&hl=ciao



#44 Jon Eisberg

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:23 PM

Peeing off the stern is common and not usually as safe. As for pee on deck or the sails, all the times I did this there was enough water coming over the deck it was a non-issue. There is an urban legend around that some huge percentage of dead bodies fished out by the USCG have their flies down.

Just pee in the cockpit, if it's that rough. 

Even if it's not, I long ago quit the practice of peeing over the side...

 

Any cheap cup with a handle, and a lanyard long enough to dip it over the side to give it a rinse, works fine...



#45 Estar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

Ajax^^

Thanks for the dc mat details. We carry something like that . . . However there have been a number of good tests (by Brit magazines) that suggest it is much more realistic/practical (in the real world) to stuff the hole from the inside than to try to get some thing over it from the outside. I had a conversation with a Salvage damage control specialist . . . He recommended that we carry a range of sizes of snurf balls, which can be compressed, stuffed into odd shape holes and the mushroom back on both sides of the hole. You can also play on the beach with them :)

And . . . Yes the energy absorbing feature is common in industrial harnesses. However, That does not appear to be the intent of the ISAF . . . . It appears to be just a signal to toss the tether. They would be designed differently if the intent was energy absorbing (much longer fold with longer stitching zipper). But the thing that just really Bugs me is that we have this required feature with no specification.

As an aside, for me, one of the values in offshore sailing is self-reliance, which included the skills and knowledge and culture to make stuff with your own hands. I personally think it is anti-safety to have rules/requirements that discourage sailors from making such simple gear as tethers. I think they will be safer if they are encouraged to make them, and thus know how to inspect, maintain and repair them . . . And could extend those skills and mindset to other gear on board.

#46 Ajax

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

I agree that applying an external patch would be difficult, and it's really only meant for the absolute worst type of holing. In addition to wooden bungs, I carry one of those large Forespar foam plugs that is similar to a Nerf ball. I would still like to buy a Nerf football (to stuff into my ridiculously oversized hawsepipe).



#47 Alex W

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

Estar: Having recently done spectra life lines your article looks good.


I couldn't find any articles on this subject that showed a "best practice" lashing.  It would be great if you included this.  You have a discussion on best knots for spectra rope, but don't really say what is recommended or how many wraps you'd give the lashing.

 

I find the discussion on tethers very interesting and like your suggestion of having tethers at stations.  I have no experience with tethers, but plan on rigging my boat with them soon since I have some single handed cruising plans this summer.



#48 Estar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:32 PM

^^ good suggestion.

There is a good piece on spectra lashing on colligo's website. It's primarily oriented to lashings for rigging, but is also decent for lifelines. But it does leave some unanswered questions (like how strong should it be) that I could address.

#49 Tucky

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:42 PM

I really like the permanent tether idea. I had never seen the statistic before about people going overboard when working rather than moving, but that has always been my approach. I have one of the dual tethers and hard points to attach them to all over the boat. I very rarely rig my jacklines. I'm not sure i would switch in general to moving around with no tether on me and have tethers at key points, but a tether at the bow would be smart for me in a lot of conditions.

As we get older (SWMBO 66 & me 65) we find that we are much more conscious of staying on board than in our wild past.

We always wear inflatable vests now and I plan to rig jack-lines on the Sliver in any conditions other than gentle breeze.

I have been looking at inflatable vests with built in harness.

I wear the harness first- the flotation is second. On my boat the way I sail, not going overboard is much more important to me than floating if I do. I have a Spinlock harness/jacket. Manual inflate as the auto went off once and being on a multihull capsize escape is a prime consideration.



#50 Soņadora

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:18 PM

Good suggestion about the pumps. Soñadora has a very deep sump. I think there's a whole nother boat down there. A 120v pump at the dock would be useful for cleaning the sump dry.



#51 Estar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:58 PM

Just added a short section on lashing to the lifeline draft . . . same link as in the OP.



#52 Presuming Ed

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:03 PM

And . . . Yes the energy absorbing feature is common in industrial harnesses. However, That does not appear to be the intent of the ISAF . . . . It appears to be just a signal to toss the tether. They would be designed differently if the intent was energy absorbing (much longer fold with longer stitching zipper). But the thing that just really Bugs me is that we have this required feature with no specification.

I can't believe that a tether is useless after one use. Or is it? 

 

But they don't have a recommendation about replacement from age? (IIRC). Personally, I don't like the way people rig jacklines and leave them out in sunlight (UV) all summer. 



#53 Alex W

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:17 PM

Just added a short section on lashing to the lifeline draft . . . same link as in the OP.

I like it.  This is much more complete than the other articles that I could find.

 

Your link to the buntline hitch doesn't work, but this one does:

http://www.animatedknots.com/buntline/

 

For some reason Spyderline is hard to find in Seattle, but Fisheries sells FSE Robline Dinghy Control which is also a dyneema core/dacron cover:

http://www.fisheries...-dinghy-control

 

3mm has 1011 lbs breaking strength, 4mm has 1573 lbs.



#54 Estar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:17 PM

Ajax^^


And . . . Yes the energy absorbing feature is common in industrial harnesses. However, That does not appear to be the intent of the ISAF . . . . It appears to be just a signal to toss the tether. They would be designed differently if the intent was energy absorbing (much longer fold with longer stitching zipper). But the thing that just really Bugs me is that we have this required feature with no specification.

I can't believe that a tether is useless after one use. Or is it? 

That is the standard in the climbing world, but their 'uses' (eg falls) are typically much much more extreme than a sailor's.

 

Today, it will depends on how the tether is built. Once the flag is popped the tether has to be tossed, but since there appears to be no spec on the flag strength we don't know at what sort of use/fall/load that will happen. I suspect all the commercial flags will certainly pop with less than the ISO "2m fall of 100kg", but how much less we do not know.

 

Some of the stitching I have seen on commercial tethers is crap and will fail on any decent fall. The crap "X bar" stitch I show in my jackline article is from a product WM sold. It would never in a million years be accepted by the climbing community.  But If, for example, you look at the tethers that WHL and I build for ourselves you will see ones that are much more durable and can safely withstand numerous (probably infinite) 'typical sailor falls'.

 

 

Your link to the buntline hitch doesn't work, but this one does:

http://www.animatedknots.com/buntline/

 

Thanks.  I need to clean up all the links in all the pieces.  But Beth is going to do some significant editing before I get to that.



#55 Slim

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:26 PM

Following up on Ajax's question/comment . . . . I don't want to get into weather forecasting because that's a book length topic on its own, BUT I do think it would be useful in the article to be able to suggest the two very best articles or books - one on 'deck level forecasting' (eg just looking around and at the barograph and clouds, etc, without external weather information), and one using external weather.  Given the topic of the article they should obviously be strong on storms.  So, any suggestions/recommendations for the two best easily available weather resources to recommend (I would prefer to recommend freely available articles or books or on-line presentations that someone can go read anytime rather than seminars or presentations that you have to sign up for).

Here are three that I like - two free, one you buy.

 

With external information - Lee Chesneau - Mariner’s Guide to the 500 – Millibar Chart

 

and

 

With only your eyes - Alan Watt's - Instant Weather Forecasting

 

free alternative, but very abbreviated - NOAA Skywatcher Chart



#56 No.6

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:30 PM

For peeing over the stern... tie a stout sail tie to the pulpit, I like one on each quarter. Tie it short, like so there is about a foot of it available. That foot long tail should be the end with a well sewn loop in it. When you are "going to town to see a man about a horse" (as an old friend used to declare when he was moving aft to relieve himself), you place the loop around your free wrist and hold onto the load side of the sail tie. This gives you three points (two feet and the hand/wrist) of which to balance yourself. Think of it like a cowboy riding a bucking bronco. It is pretty hard to fall over if you do this and if for some reason you do, you are still holding on by the loop.

 

Evans, quickly read you Survival Sailing piece. To me what is missing is what strategy one needs to employ to escape the worst of it. Not weather forecasting, so to speak, but how to determine what the best course is to get out of the presumed path of the storm. I also think that discussing what happens in each quadrant would be helpful. We are all taught or told that in the northern hemisphere that the north east quadrant is the most dangerous for an northeast bound system. Certainly you get the largest waves and most wind in that quadrant. However, the southwest quadrant isn't any picnic either as the sea state tends to be the most confused. Also you may want to mention how to identify where the eye of the storm is. Facing the wind and looking to your right back pocket tells you approximately where the center of the storm lies relative to you location, as you know. Between that, knowing the general track of the storm and a barometer, you can lay tracks to get away form the eye as quickly and safely as possible.

WRT going into a seaway, close reaching. Never thought that was the way to go unless you had no other option, such as a lee shore you needed to crawl off of or getting distance from the eye/path.

WRT single drogues, webbing types like Gale Rider, don't tend to pop as much as a conical drogue. Scope is your friend in any event as what you really need to do is get the drogue back a couple of wave trains. Also a short length of chain at the drogue end of the line can help keep the darn thing in the water. In tends to keep the attitude of the drogue downwards and acts to prevent any shock loading much as chain on ground tackle does.

Series drogues, never used one but I always thought the rub there would be that they are harder to deploy and not getting tangled into mess. 



#57 Estar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

^^ 6

 

I agree, there is a useful discussion to be had about weather strategy . . .  but I don't think I have much of value to add to the other good texts already on it (for instance Dashew's book), and its a big and complex topic that would take me pretty far afield. Both 'bombs' and crush zones for instance are frequent and important for strategy but are complex enough to be whole pieces in of themselves.  

 

Our most frequently used drogue is in fact a galerider, and I can tell you it does in fact pop out in the 'wrong' conditions, even set on 600' of rode.

 

I don't have as much experience with single cones. The other single element we have carried/used is a delta drogue, which is also not a cone. So I can't comment on whether they pop out more or less than the galerider.

 

I have mixed feelings on adding chain to the system. Series drogue and Shark recommends adding weight while I believe galerider recommends against. When I have added (20' of) chain it has not seemed to change the behavior of the drogue all the much is really severe conditions.  If the 600' 3/4" wet nylon rode is being pulled bar straight, then a bit of chain also seems to not add much to the dynamics.

 

What I have been experimenting with recently is two medium size 'single elements' in series.  I don't have enough experience yet with it, but so far it seems to combine the best of both worlds.  I have added a DIY strop thru the middle of the delta drogue so I can hook up the galerider in series.

 

The low frequency of these conditions is a real problem with testing stuff, in addition to the general desire to use something you know and trust in those sorts of conditions, rather than test something new for 'the greater good'. The 'testing' that some of the mfg's do in relatively flat water is almost completely worthless and misleading.

 

Do you have a recommendation on the very best book or article I could reference/recommend on weather, and on weather strategy?



#58 olaf hart

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:42 PM

We have a cheap plastic urinal, like they use in hospitals.
Works fine in the cockpit, empty it downwind.
A few bucks from a medical supply house.
They also make female versions, google FUD.

#59 Estar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:02 PM

I have a better picture of this somewhere, but . . . . here is the galerider out on 300' of 3/4" rode.  The galerider is just under my elbow, near the surface about to pop out of the wave. You can tell something about wave size when you realize that wave face is 300' back. We obviously needed another 300'. This was early in our drogue experiences and we also were not yet using a bridle, which we always use now. I think the wind was only 40kts (and NOT a survival situation), but we were coming in across the edge of the shelf (into Uruguay) and occasionally had some really poorly shaped waves. 7kts of boat speed with just the storm jib and drogue.

 

Attached File  HW Drogue 8.jpg   21.14K   68 downloads



#60 No.6

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:16 AM

Do you have a recommendation on the very best book or article I could reference/recommend on weather, and on weather strategy?

Oh geeze, I think the last book I read on the subject was Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing.... like the first edition!

I do like Alan Watts' weather books. They offer a practical approach to understanding weather.



#61 Steam Flyer

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:58 PM

(Too?) much Info about eductor pumps. We used them all the time in the power plants. Air, steam and water powered.  

 

http://www.clarkreli...oad/e-200-1.pdf

 

Common basement sump backup pump. Ballpark 12 gpm at 7ft haed

 

http://www.libertypu...?p=77&s=23&c=14

 

 

Unfortunately, steam to power an eductor is in short supply on sailing yachts

;)

 

Compressed air might be a go on a dive boat; might be nice to power one from compressed air tanks and suck no batteries down etc etc

 

The size/performance charts in the link made my head hurt, but I think I can distill it down to the basics: if you already have a pump running, an eductor is a way to piggyback greater outflow onto that pump's discharge. The higher the pressure, the better it works.

 

Advantages- no moving parts (but then, the pump that supplies it does have), can pass thru debris, can be put in out-of-the-way corner of bilge and forgotten until needed, high capacity for low cost.

 

Disadvantages- you need a pump that's already running; the eductor is just as susceptible to backflow as any other overboard system.

 

I like using duct tape and Nerf balls for plugging/patching. Soft wooden plugs are overrated IMHO, yeah they look salty but woe unto your hindpart trying to whittle one to fit an irregular hole while water is gushing in over your knees.

 

Having a crew that doesn't panic is really the best damage control accessory, and I have no idea where you can buy this.

 

Evan, I have one suggestion to add for 'survival sailing' which is also a great essay: sail small boats. An afternoon sailing a 15-footer in 20kt winds and chop will teach you more about how to handle a 30+ footer than any amount of reading. That plus practice in using whatever reefing gear your boat has; however learning how a boat behaves with exaggerated windage, overpowered rig, steering in waves, etc etc, is what will make the rest of the plan come together IMHO.

 

FB- Doug



#62 Joli

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:43 PM

I like Dashew's weather book.  It makes upper level (500 mb) trough combinations with surface low interactions understandable.



#63 JBE

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

Posting off a kid at the airport last night I got a very quick look at this months Yachting world ( I think it was )   .  An article there about a guy who set up an emergency pump kit he ended up using.  A rule 8000 set up ( two pumps hooked together), long lead with alligator clips to make it portable ( he was in a cat) and a quite long fire hose type hose for an exit overboard.

 Worth a look I thought,and a good option to have in the quiver, I'll go and find that one and read it properly.



#64 Elegua

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:52 AM

Following Estar's suggestions I'm thinking of having a length of spectra running through the sidedecks shackle to different strong points to add security.

In the updated draft I just posted I did include an interesting suggestion from a Volvo sailor.  They apparently have webbing loops sewn into their jacklines at strategic work station points.  These are low enough profile that the clip can slide over them, but when they are working (rather than moving) they can clip to the loops and be stopped from being washed down the full length of the deck/jackline.  That's particularly useful on boats like the Volvo's that have so much green water on deck, but it's not hard to do (just a little sewing) and might be useful sometime for 'the rest of us' as an alternative to being clipped to a hard point.

I'm particularly interested in the trickle down from the Volvo and other offshore racing groups. They have done a lot to simplify and improve sail handling and safety that when applied to our more conservative cruising boats makes a lot of sense. What techniques and set-up are applicable to the coastal and offshore cruiser?  



#65 kimbottles

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:09 AM

Portable pump and damage control kit:

 

A very good friend of mine (who unfortunately died of ALS a couple years ago) made up such a kit and gave it to me shortly before he died. It is a Rule 4000 with long discharge hose, power wiring set up with battery clips and a tarp ready with line to cover any damage to the hull that lets in water. I have not used it yet, but I do intend to carry it on the Francis Lee when she hits the water. If the kit ever saves a boat the credit will go to my friend for the foresight to make up the kit.

Attached Files



#66 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:35 AM

I have seen old wooden boats in Florida with huge "whole boat" tarps that would sink without them.



#67 JBE

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:14 AM

 Thats it Kim . The article has  a rule 8000 and a comment about redundancy in the pumps ( its 2x 4000 coupled together) plus some underwater epoxy of a type I don't remember.

 

Last trip I did on a mates boat  I set up 1/2 a sheet ( so 1200 x 1200 or  4ft x 4 ft )of 10 mm bendy ply with some 10 mm closed cell packing  foam contact stuck to it ,and then cut it into as big as pieces as I could find a place to store it. I think it ended up being 3 varying sizes.Bag full of drywall screws with it.

This is a cold moulded wooden boat, very easy to power drive or even hand drive the screws in. I was thinking coral head damage when I did that

Portable pump and damage control kit:

 

A very good friend of mine (who unfortunately died of ALS a couple years ago) made up such a kit and gave it to me shortly before he died. It is a Rule 4000 with long discharge hose, power wiring set up with battery clips and a tarp ready with line to cover any damage to the hull that lets in water. I have not used it yet, but I do intend to carry it on the Francis Lee when she hits the water. If the kit ever saves a boat the credit will go to my friend for the foresight to make up the kit.



#68 blackjenner

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:48 PM

There's a lot to digest here and I'm currently in the process of refining my jack lines and tether system on the boat.
 
Currently my jack lines are webbing only.  I'll be upgrading those to webbing over dyneema core for increased strength.  I know they need some improvements in strength but, they work well on the boat and they fit the design of the boat.
 
The jack lines are on the center of the boat.  They will stay that way.  
 
IMG_6885.JPG
 
I'm also upgrading the tethers to use improved shackles.
 
As a side note:
 
The one thing I'm noting about the whole "tether designed to tow you backwards in the water so you don't drown" thing is this: why are you *off* the boat if you are wearing a properly designed and engineered jacklines/tether system?

Yes, one can be dragged to your death on a tether but, that means you are in the water.
 
My own system is specifically designed to be on the center of the boat, with tethers that allow me to reach the entire boat, but not go in the water.  Ever.  Not ever.  I mean it.

 I think one of the most crucial preventive measures to not drowning at sea is *staying on the boat*.  I know that sounds flippant and simplistic but, I think it's a pretty big factor here.



#69 SailRacer

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:52 PM

BlackJenner, I like your setup more than any I have seen.

Stay out of the water if you can.

 

Sail safe!



#70 Slim

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:04 PM

Here's another take on surviving a hole in the hull. Making your lockers into water-tight compartments.

http://atomvoyages.c...ableboat-1.html

#71 blackjenner

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:20 PM

BlackJenner, I like your setup more than any I have seen.

Stay out of the water if you can.

 

Sail safe!

Thanks.  It has it's limitations and drawbacks but, for this particular boat, it's the best design.



#72 bert s

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:20 AM

Pumps! Check out Jabsco and Johnson engine driven rubber impeller electric clutched pumps. Available at all PNW fishing supply stores. The Globe blue silicone run dry impellers are spendy but good.
Another company makes a pump and housing that bolt over the shaft that run whenever you are in gear. Acts as a bilge blower in the absence of water.



#73 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:07 PM

I LOVE that system. I agree - if you are in the water you already have some level of fail no matter how well you are being towed along.

There's a lot to digest here and I'm currently in the process of refining my jack lines and tether system on the boat.
 
Currently my jack lines are webbing only.  I'll be upgrading those to webbing over dyneema core for increased strength.  I know they need some improvements in strength but, they work well on the boat and they fit the design of the boat.
 
The jack lines are on the center of the boat.  They will stay that way.  
 
IMG_6885.JPG
 
I'm also upgrading the tethers to use improved shackles.
 
As a side note:
 
The one thing I'm noting about the whole "tether designed to tow you backwards in the water so you don't drown" thing is this: why are you *off* the boat if you are wearing a properly designed and engineered jacklines/tether system?

Yes, one can be dragged to your death on a tether but, that means you are in the water.
 
My own system is specifically designed to be on the center of the boat, with tethers that allow me to reach the entire boat, but not go in the water.  Ever.  Not ever.  I mean it.

 I think one of the most crucial preventive measures to not drowning at sea is *staying on the boat*.  I know that sounds flippant and simplistic but, I think it's a pretty big factor here.







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