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You Make The Call - Banderas Bay Regatta Crash & Injury


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#1 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:40 PM

Blue vs. Camelot, last week. Blue tactician Mike Danielsen slipped when they touched, and broke both legs below the knee. Much love to Mike and Leah, and best wishes on a speedy recovery in beautiful Nuevo Vallarta.



#2 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:50 PM

more info

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#3 Geff

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:57 PM

+1!



#4 Triceratops

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:58 PM

Easy! Blue is at fault and should have avoided collision!



#5 chaosmaster

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:07 PM

Windward boat blatantly fouled leeward. They had plenty of time an opportunity to stay clear. Toss.

 

Leeward boat did not avoid collision. Toss.

 

Cheers,

 

Chaos



#6 Delta Blues

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:09 PM

+

 

 

Windward boat blatantly fouled leeward. They had plenty of time an opportunity to stay clear. Toss.

 

Leeward boat did not avoid collision. Toss.

 

Cheers,

 

Chaos



#7 MattyB73

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:10 PM

Boat pictured breached rrs 11 by failing to keep clear and did so before the leeward boat altered course.

Leeward boat probably also breached both rrs16.1 and rrs14. She was not tacking.

Get well Mike.

#8 ssi

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:12 PM

Feel aweful for the tactician.  The driver in blue should swim home.  The main trimmer too.  Yes, I know everything.



#9 MSA

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:18 PM

Is that Image correct??? Seems to be a bit exhilarated at the turn rate of White.

 

Blue always, from 1 minute out was pushing its Luck.. How can a "pro" be caught that far above lay line.

 

At 40 seconds White was closing the door, fast.. Blue had no room and it seems white pulled the bow down do avoid a proper T-bone and avoid any altercation

 

From that point Blue had minimal space and had the option to bail out. It was like a slow motion car crash... Saw it happening for a minute... literally.



#10 HILLY

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:22 PM

Easy! Blue is at fault and should have avoided collision!

Easy! Blue is at fault and should have avoided collision!

Absolutely, the call at 54secs. for bow down into a right of way boat, because they were fast and early. Had space to
windward to come up and avoid the collision and miss committee boat.
I am sorry to hear about the injuries.

#11 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:26 PM

So, this begs the question, how much is winning the start worth? Damage to boats? Crushed legs? A few weeks ago we were starting a race in a local series. Our class was running the line during prestart. With a minute to go the majority of the class was tacking back to the line from starboard of the committee boat and reaching back to the line. We saw we were goig to be late and in a barging position. So, we luffed up before we got back to the line to let the guys ahead clear the line first. The boat ahead of us had a relatively new owner driving and he found he was also in a barging position when a third boat a certain J-125 decided he was going to close the door on the second boat. The second boat panick tacked and proceded to hit us in the port stearn quarter. The new owner of the second boat didn't understand that by passing head to wind he was now on port and the burdened boat. So, the J-125 got off un scathed with a reasonable start.

 

A couple weeks later the same J-125 decided to shut the door on a Open 40 boat under a similar situation. Only the Open 40 decided to turn down and did not clear the the J-125. So, the J-125 got hit and spun up into the committee boat. These are not dinghies we're playing with. Serious damage and risk to life and limb are at risk. Is it really worth it to win the start at all costs? 

 

We have different levels of experience out there racing. You can't always expect the boat your shutting the door on to respond in the manner you anticipate. And, sometimes you lose.



#12 sansouci

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:27 PM

First, Get well Mike, I hope your legs heal quickly. Second, Blue should be tossed as they were bargeing in on the line and there was no room. Camelot had rights as the leeward boat. Camelot had a boat to their leeward, who was to some degree keeping Camelot from heading down to avoid the hit with Blue. Bottom line to my eye Blue had no right to be where they were. BTW this is billed as a friendly race where many of the competitors are racing their homes.

#13 DaveK

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:28 PM

Geeze..... both legs!! I hope he recovers well. I keep wondering why he was looking at his phone so much??... or whatever that was around his neck.



#14 1235

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:29 PM

what an idiot



#15 Geronimo

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:32 PM

what an idiot


+1 .... Did he really try to fend them off!? Didn't he learn anything in optis? Never put anything between two boats...

....and he is a pro....

#16 walterbshaffer

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:33 PM

At :53 Blue is turning down onto Camelot, pretty rapidly too.

 

I wonder if the helm on Blue in a moment of excitement got confused on which was to turn the wheel to "come up come up come up" as the tactician was clearly calling to be done.

 

Also I don't see how Camelot can be faulted for not avoiding a boat which turns down onto them: they need aleast a few seconds to react and the action on Blue's helm, which might have tipped off Camelot's helm that Blue was not going to keep clear was behind him. Also Helm on Camelot could probably hear tactician on Blue saying "come up come up come up" so would doubly not be expecting Blue to come down on them.

 

Camelot tossed also? Ok if you guys say so but I'm not certain how much fault Camelot really has here.

 

Edit: tactician does say "bown down" once and then I think is calling for Camelot to "avoid" once but the helm is twisting the wheel all over the place with plenty of room to weather .



#17 duncan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:35 PM

hope the legs heal fast- ouch



#18 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:37 PM

First, Get well Mike, I hope your legs heal quickly. Second, Blue should be tossed as they were bargeing in on the line and there was no room. Camelot had rights as the leeward boat. Camelot had a boat to their leeward, who was to some degree keeping Camelot from heading down to avoid the hit with Blue. Bottom line to my eye Blue had no right to be where they were. BTW this is billed as a friendly race where many of the competitors are racing their homes.

I might be a bit off thanks to a season of one-design racing and maybe the performance cruising class has a majorly different definition of 'room' than I do, but there was a shit ton of room between Camelot and Blue, and plenty between Blue and the RC - probably a couple of boat widths .  Camelot tried to 'close the door' but couldn't even get to it, the kind of thing you see a lot from guys that are too excited to be playing with the big boys for a change; you can see their jib luffing just before the collision.  As lame as that move was, Blue made one major mistake - when Mike was calling for the helm to go 'bow up, bow up', driver was staring at Camelot, deer in the headlights.  Headsail trimmer wasn't easing, either.   Those 3 seconds of up would have made the difference between a painful injury and a great start IMO.



#19 Madmax

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:38 PM

Bummer.



#20 Brian

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:39 PM

what an idiot


+1 .... Did he really try to fend them off!? Didn't he learn anything in optis? Never put anything between two boats...

....and he is a pro....

 

I am assuming the initial comment was for putting Blue in the position they were in. Looking at the video (and per Clean's post), Mike slipped at the collision--he clearly wasn't trying to fend the boats off.



#21 andy02m

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:40 PM

Totally disagree with chaosmaster.

 

The video clearly shows once Camelot realized there was another boat bearing down on it, the  skipper attempted to get clear.. It might have been at the last second, but nonetheless, he attempted to avoid the collision.  Furthermore, lest we not forget that he had another boat below him...

 

I can not justify throwing out Camelot in light of the video evidence of what happened - specifically we can see that Blue  had no right to jam himself into a place and then claim the other boat should have given him room. 

 

In the end, Blue  rammed himself into a dangerous position at full speed knowing that Camelot had rights and was battling another boat to make the line.



#22 atwinda

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:52 PM

Wait wait wait- what kinda injury are we talking here? Broken legs, etc?? I want to know more about that than who was right or wrong..

#23 MT14er

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:52 PM

I'm putting this one all on Blue.  It's a bit difficult to tell how much Camelot did to avoid a collision, it looks like they turned down a least a bit to avoid, but blue had no rights and turned the wrong freaking way.  If I'm on Camelot the last thing I'm expecting is for the barging boat to turn into me when they have a ton of room above them.  Bad tactics and worse driving. 



#24 Joli

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

Some guys love to barge and sometimes they get away with it but other times,,, nope!  Sorry to hear someone was hurt but Blue had no business trying to make that fit.  Luff, dive or come around again but that was simply stupid especially with a boat that size.



#25 USA190520

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:07 PM

Blue vs. Camelot, last week. Blue tactician Mike Danielsen slipped when they touched, and broke both legs below the knee. Much love to Mike and Leah, and best wishes on a speedy recovery in beautiful Nuevo Vallarta.


Blue hasn't a leg to stand on there...in 6-8 weeks maybe..

Hope he heals well and learns from this little trip

#26 chaosmaster

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:08 PM

Totally disagree with chaosmaster.

 

The video clearly shows once Camelot realized there was another boat bearing down on it, the  skipper attempted to get clear.. It might have been at the last second, but nonetheless, he attempted to avoid the collision.  Furthermore, lest we not forget that he had another boat below him...

 

I can not justify throwing out Camelot in light of the video evidence of what happened - specifically we can see that Blue  had no right to jam himself into a place and then claim the other boat should have given him room. 

 

In the end, Blue  rammed himself into a dangerous position at full speed knowing that Camelot had rights and was battling another boat to make the line.

 

Andy,

 

I certainly would not argue your point. W was clearly at fault all around and it would suck if L was tossed. My comment was based on how things would go in the room. The rules are there to avoid collisions and judges are instructed to enforce the rules to that end.

 

I've been in the same position as L and once I saw W was not going to avoid, turned down and raised the flag (note: was screaming bloody murder well in advance to attract the attention - see next note). The protest was very short (considering my first order of business, once I got to shore, was to seek out the committee boat members. They make VERY credible witnesses).

 

I think if you check the video, L had enough room to leeward to turn down.

 

Chaos



#27 USA190520

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:09 PM


First, Get well Mike, I hope your legs heal quickly. Second, Blue should be tossed as they were bargeing in on the line and there was no room. Camelot had rights as the leeward boat. Camelot had a boat to their leeward, who was to some degree keeping Camelot from heading down to avoid the hit with Blue. Bottom line to my eye Blue had no right to be where they were. BTW this is billed as a friendly race where many of the competitors are racing their homes.

I might be a bit off thanks to a season of one-design racing and maybe the performance cruising class has a majorly different definition of 'room' than I do, but there was a shit ton of room between Camelot and Blue, and plenty between Blue and the RC - probably a couple of boat widths .  Camelot tried to 'close the door' but couldn't even get to it, the kind of thing you see a lot from guys that are too excited to be playing with the big boys for a change; you can see their jib luffing just before the collision.  As lame as that move was, Blue made one major mistake - when Mike was calling for the helm to go 'bow up, bow up', driver was staring at Camelot, deer in the headlights.  Headsail trimmer wasn't easing, either.   Those 3 seconds of up would have made the difference between a painful injury and a great start IMO.

+1

#28 redmond

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:16 PM

It would seem to me that the tactician should have asked the helmsman to come to a leeward position early on so that he could observe the situation before they got themselves in a position that they could not escape from. The bigger the boats, the more anticipation is required to keep something bad from happening.



#29 Delta Blues

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:18 PM

This is the trouble we have with the rules, so many people get myopic in interpreting, only looking at "the moment" of time.  Look at the length of the video, look at how visibility is clear, look at how long the situation had to develop.  Nothing was hidden, everything was out in the open.  Two boats CHOSE to collide.  There was no reason under the sun for those boats to hit.  Both had ample time, ample warning, and as one wrote above, he could see that collision coming 1 minute before hitting.  Stop using microscopes when you should be using telescopes.

 

 

Totally disagree with chaosmaster.

 

The video clearly shows once Camelot realized there was another boat bearing down on it, the  skipper attempted to get clear.. It might have been at the last second, but nonetheless, he attempted to avoid the collision.  Furthermore, lest we not forget that he had another boat below him...

 

I can not justify throwing out Camelot in light of the video evidence of what happened - specifically we can see that Blue  had no right to jam himself into a place and then claim the other boat should have given him room. 

 

In the end, Blue  rammed himself into a dangerous position at full speed knowing that Camelot had rights and was battling another boat to make the line.



#30 Philen

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

I might be a bit off thanks to a season of one-design racing and maybe the performance cruising class has a majorly different definition of 'room' than I do, but there was a shit ton of room between Camelot and Blue, and plenty between Blue and the RC - probably a couple of boat widths .  Camelot tried to 'close the door' but couldn't even get to it, .........., Blue made one major mistake - when Mike was calling for the helm to go 'bow up, bow up', driver was staring at Camelot, deer in the headlights.  Headsail trimmer wasn't easing, either.   Those 3 seconds of up would have made the difference between a painful injury and a great start IMO.

+1



#31 Team America!

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

First, Get well Mike, I hope your legs heal quickly. Second, Blue should be tossed as they were bargeing in on the line and there was no room. Camelot had rights as the leeward boat. Camelot had a boat to their leeward, who was to some degree keeping Camelot from heading down to avoid the hit with Blue. Bottom line to my eye Blue had no right to be where they were. BTW this is billed as a friendly race where many of the competitors are racing their homes.

I might be a bit off thanks to a season of one-design racing and maybe the performance cruising class has a majorly different definition of 'room' than I do, but there was a shit ton of room between Camelot and Blue, and plenty between Blue and the RC - probably a couple of boat widths .  Camelot tried to 'close the door' but couldn't even get to it, the kind of thing you see a lot from guys that are too excited to be playing with the big boys for a change; you can see their jib luffing just before the collision.  As lame as that move was, Blue made one major mistake - when Mike was calling for the helm to go 'bow up, bow up', driver was staring at Camelot, deer in the headlights.  Headsail trimmer wasn't easing, either.   Those 3 seconds of up would have made the difference between a painful injury and a great start IMO.

'Camelot' was responding to the boat to leeward, not trying to close 'Blue' out. He WAS racing his house, plainly 'Blue' came in hot on the reach, and had no business doing so. The driver of 'Blue' had plenty of time and room to stay clear, and didn't.

Mike was wrong, and sadly will really pay the price, and the driver of 'Blue', also.



#32 SpinnakerTed

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:38 PM

No obvious luffing on the right of way vessel. The J reached down right on top of the leward boat.



#33 NACRADUDE

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:38 PM

I'm putting this one all on Blue.  It's a bit difficult to tell how much Camelot did to avoid a collision, it looks like they turned down a least a bit to avoid, but blue had no rights and turned the wrong freaking way.  If I'm on Camelot the last thing I'm expecting is for the barging boat to turn into me when they have a ton of room above them.  Bad tactics and worse driving. 

Exactly my take also. Blue screwed the pooch royally.



#34 some dude

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:59 PM

All on Blue.  R11

The big surprise was how much room they appear to have to snuggle up to the committee boat.  One little shot to weather, then bow down and roll the whole mess to leeward would have been the way to go.

 

Also-although we have covered this before, it apparently bears repeating-DO NOT try to fend off big huge boats especially when hauling ass.  You will not stop the collision.  Let them crunch while you stand back with a look of detached amusement on your face.

 

That said, get well soon Mike



#35 oldweezer

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

I'm putting this one all on Blue.  It's a bit difficult to tell how much Camelot did to avoid a collision, it looks like they turned down a least a bit to avoid, but blue had no rights and turned the wrong freaking way.  If I'm on Camelot the last thing I'm expecting is for the barging boat to turn into me when they have a ton of room above them.  Bad tactics and worse driving. 

Exactly my take also. Blue screwed the pooch royally.

+1 IMO The helmsman panicked and oversteered, putting the stern into the leeward boat



#36 luvdawestend

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:09 PM

EGO Alert

 

1)Why did the owner/helmsman post this video on the net? At least Rommeny's 47% video was posted without his knowledge. That hero cam should have gone over the side or someone have swallowed the mem card. 

 

2) Why is it owners of big boats think  because they have enough money to buy and campaign a 50+ footer that they can do anything they want on a race course or most likely in the board room as well.

 

3) At least the injured person was on the boat that likely has the insurance and resources to pay his medical expenses and lost earnings

 

4) Folks who have called tactics(amateurs) on my boats would have been a lot more explicit and louder that just "bow up- bow up" more like "turn right you dumb ***". Could it have been that he had the time/distance so far off that he thought they would just role the cruiser? 



#37 nolatom

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:10 PM

"the best sailors come out of dinghy racing"...

 

True, but sometimes they forget they're not in dinghies.  W overerestimated his boat's quickness at heading up and underestimated the leeway, and seemingly underappreciated how what would risk a "bump" in dinghies involves "crunch" and crew health risk in the biggie hulls.

 

W had too much time to head up earlier for me to want to toss L.

 

 

 

 

PS:  If the tactician and helmsman aren't dinghy alumni, then, uh, I don't know....  just not 'situationally aware" enough til things go south?



#38 dash34

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:14 PM

Not only was Blue (and only Blue) at fault, but they were well on their way to an OCS start.  Tactician should put away the little GPS device and spend more time looking around.  You could see that they were in deep trouble a long way away from the incident.  There was a lot they could have done about it (rag sails, luff or bear off without easing sails to slow down), but no action was taken.

 

In addition it looks like there was room between Camelot and RC boat but helm couldn't or didn't steer the boat into the gap. The collision could have been avoided but not the OCS start.  Perhaps helm realized the OCS was imminent and tried to gain a little time by bearing off at just the wrong moment. 

 

This video is a graphic illustration of what can go wrong with a barge start.  That it resulted in an injury is just tragic. Hope it heals well.

 

dash



#39 Autograph

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:23 PM

Shame, seemed like the driver of the J had a wheel brain fade, before the overlap was established, and the caravan skipper had not the situational awareness to anticipate a contact and react once there was an overlap.  Onus on the J, 11, and possible caravan for 16.1.

 

The mullered tactiguesser may just have lost his footing because of the bump, and slid into the contact area.  Bad luck.  Not karma, as we have all been there, and most don't get punished so harshly, I would rather be lucky than good...

 

And always keep a plan to avoid boats sailing with beach toys on deck and baggy dacron sails, especially big ones.



#40 TimFordi550#87

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

I watched the vid again and then deleted my comment about the progression at 0:52-0:54.  Driver, inexplicably, clearly turned Blue down at this time, when there seems to have been more than ample room off the RC's stern.
 
Camelot exonerated from any culpability.

#41 ref

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

another reason to favor the pin end!



#42 Trickypig

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:39 PM

Tacticians can only do so much, the last 10 seconds are all on the steerer.

 

Blue was really trucking in there (8.5 knots+?) but left little room to leeward (there was more space to the start boat) so they were begging for trouble.

 

Blue should get tossed.



#43 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:40 PM

I don't blame Camelot at all in this one.  There was room for Blue to get off the line without hitting anything.  I don't know the people involved but my take on it from the video is that the pro tactician put the skipper in a position that he wasn't comfortable in and didn't have the experience to handle.  

 

Also when you look at the sail trimmers there didn't even seem to be a recognition that they might be able to help Blue get off the line cleanly.  The deer in the headlights metaphor is appropriate here. 

 

This is a good lesson that what is possible and how much space is needed is dependent as much on the crew as the boat. 

 

I hope the tactician fully recovers soon. 

 

 

 

This is the trouble we have with the rules, so many people get myopic in interpreting, only looking at "the moment" of time.  Look at the length of the video, look at how visibility is clear, look at how long the situation had to develop.  Nothing was hidden, everything was out in the open.  Two boats CHOSE to collide.  There was no reason under the sun for those boats to hit.  Both had ample time, ample warning, and as one wrote above, he could see that collision coming 1 minute before hitting.  Stop using microscopes when you should be using telescopes.



#44 Buzzard

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:41 PM

What pops out at me is that both the main trimmer and jib trimmer on Blue do not trim their sails at all to help drive the boat.  If I hear bow up bow up I think sheet in to help drive the boat up and maintain trim and speed.  The main and jib trimmers are just sitting waiting for the collision.   It could be the angle of the camera, but it looks like the boom is off center and not trimmed to sail close hauled.   



#45 TeamGladiator

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

Assume that diagram was prepared by "Blue". Compared to the video it is pure fantasy. The overlap occurs much later and at significantly different angles than the diagram depicts.
Blue barged, collision occured with injury, Camelot had no reason to predict that blue would not keep clear (when they had room to do so) and when it was obvious they were not Camelot took avoiding action.
DSQ "Blue"

#46 jackdaw

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

Tactician should put away the little GPS device and spend more time looking around.  You could see that they were in deep trouble a long way away from the incident.  

 

Its a iphone in a Lifeproof case, with their orange floatie around it. Nice setup. I'm assuming he's got iRegatta running, its an iPhone copy of a Velocitek Prostart. The downside of the setup (sadly shown here) is that the screen of an iPhone is a royal BITCH to read in the sun. When his head should have been on a swivel, sadly he had to spend way too much time trying to see his clock and DTL.



#47 Trickypig

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

 Tactician should put away the little GPS device and spend more time looking around.  

 

 

He was just using it as a timer since the RC was probably using GPS signal for time.



#48 Hiro

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:46 PM

Wow, The tactician gave the driver instructions to go "Up" early and she had chosen not to comply. Glad it wasn't my boat chartered , nor my Knees B)



#49 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:52 PM

In a casual mixed fleet it is very often possible to barge at the start.  The odds of someone being there to close the door is much slimmer than in a competitive racing fleet.  In some ways it is a safe start with less experienced skipper.  I coached boats through starts like this even in one design keelboats but they have been much smaller and the crew has been more on the same page than this one. 

 

It is a little less hectic than battling for a hole in the line where there are multiple threats.  The skipper needs to be able to get the boat through a tight hole but usually there is the one, go for the hole or bail decision, rather than endless ups, downs, that if the skipper doesn't recognize it is too late by the time the tactician can warn. 

 

I don't know if this was the pro's thought process or not but it is an explanation of why a pro led boat would pull such a maneuver.

 

 

Is that Image correct??? Seems to be a bit exhilarated at the turn rate of White.

 

Blue always, from 1 minute out was pushing its Luck.. How can a "pro" be caught that far above lay line.

 

At 40 seconds White was closing the door, fast.. Blue had no room and it seems white pulled the bow down do avoid a proper T-bone and avoid any altercation

 

From that point Blue had minimal space and had the option to bail out. It was like a slow motion car crash... Saw it happening for a minute... literally.



#50 Trickypig

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:53 PM

Assume that diagram was prepared by "Blue". Compared to the video it is pure fantasy. The overlap occurs much later and at significantly different angles than the diagram depicts.
Blue barged, collision occured with injury, Camelot had no reason to predict that blue would not keep clear (when they had room to do so) and when it was obvious they were not Camelot took avoiding action.
DSQ "Blue"

 

Agreed. The diagram is a fiction. It makes it look like Camelot was at similar speeds and to leeward the whole time whereas it was clear ahead and much slower.



#51 rexdenton

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:54 PM

Sorry about the injuries,

 

Blue, barging inside, full speed, as windward boat, clearly fouls white (R11), assisted by some really shitty driving, and bad start trimming.  blue steers *DOWN*, then reverses, overcompensating,  actually stalling rudder, flipping blue's stern into white.  Blue was clearly going to be OCS without easing/scrubbing speed at least 15-20 seconds before to the start line.  White, knowing this, steers up to close door, but inexplicably, blue barrels ahead to OCS.  DQ for windward boat failing to give room and steering into collision on the inside.



#52 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

It seems there are two issues - what do the rules permit and what experience tells you might be a bad outcome.

 

I thought videos would be a great tool to sort things like this out, but the problem with the video is it makes the video boat look stationary while the other boats are moving.  I think there is a perspective issue with the video.

 

From the rules point of view, it looks like there is room/lane between the RC and Camelot - like Clean said.  It is only after the blue boat is committed and cannot head up because RC boat is now to weather that Camelot head ups.  See video at 54-57 sec.  Camelot tried to close the door too late and it was too late for the blue boat to bail out since the RC boat was now to weather.  Camelot was changing course and did not give blue room to keep clear.  Toss Camelot for violation of Rules 16 and 14.

 

On the practical side, (1) blue came down on Camelot just  before the collision so there was not much separation and (2) who didn't think blue going in there wasn't at risk.

 

Then again, I could be wrong.



#53 DaveK

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

 Tactician should put away the little GPS device and spend more time looking around.  

 

 

He was just using it as a timer since the RC was probably using GPS signal for time.

He was looking at it way to much. I count down from 20 sec in my head without looking.



#54 carcrash

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:59 PM

Before reading any posts above: pretty obvious the J was taking an approach to a start that had a very high, extremely high potential for such a result, from the one minute mark. Reckless from a minute out.

 


The Hunter was fully correct, and clearly was bearing away before impact. Their slight luff well before mast abeam was their right and not excessive. The probably accidental bear away by the J helmsman just before impact when he finally noticed the Hunter below him was the obvious reason for the impact.

 

Its a tragedy, I feel really, really bad for the tactician. Getting badly injured is never a good thing.

 

Probably all of us who have done lots of racing have been in similar situations, but it probably mostly occurred in Sabots or Optis or Windsurfers, where the damage and injury, except to ego, was slight. Its a shame when people learn these lessons with such large boats at such high speeds.



#55 Paul Romain Tober

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:12 PM

I would hate to be the "driver" of the windward boat... or the "tactician". I hope they both recover quickly.

 

Romain



#56 whinging pom

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:14 PM

"One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself".   Windward boat keeps clear.



#57 Joli

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:16 PM

One other note: it looks like there was another blue/black boat below Camelot coming up, hard to see but definitely there.  The woman driving the J didn't look like she understood the situation she was walking into.  At :48 the tactician is telling her to bail (Up up) but she made no move and committed them to the barge.



#58 HappyBoy

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:23 PM

From a Blue crewmember's blog:

 

"On the second day we wanted to get a better start seeing as that was our main weakness from the previous day. We ended up getting to the line at the boat end to early and we tried to sail down the line a bit to kill some time. Unfortunately the boat to leeward headed up aggressively right before the start and forced us up. We ended up not having enough time to avoid which caused a collision. When we hit the leeward boat, Mike our tactician fell while trying to fend off and got his legs caught between the two boats. Half the crew jumped to his side to help him while the other half quickly took down the sails marking the end of our race."     http://tomramshaw.co.../uncategorized/

 

Fairly incriminating.



#59 jackdaw

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

From a Blue crewmember's blog:

 

"On the second day we wanted to get a better start seeing as that was our main weakness from the previous day. We ended up getting to the line at the boat end to early and we tried to sail down the line a bit to kill some time. Unfortunately the boat to leeward headed up aggressively right before the start and forced us up. We ended up not having enough time to avoid which caused a collision. When we hit the leeward boat, Mike our tactician fell while trying to fend off and got his legs caught between the two boats. Half the crew jumped to his side to help him while the other half quickly took down the sails marking the end of our race."     http://tomramshaw.co.../uncategorized/

 

Fairly incriminating.

 

He must have downstairs packing a kite. 'Sail down the line'?? really? After seeing the vid he might want to update his post.



#60 Mylar

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:41 PM

I think Mike should have been drivin or at  least taken over when he saw what the unevitable outcome was going to be



#61 Brian

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:44 PM

From a Blue crewmember's blog:

 

"On the second day we wanted to get a better start seeing as that was our main weakness from the previous day. We ended up getting to the line at the boat end to early and we tried to sail down the line a bit to kill some time. Unfortunately the boat to leeward headed up aggressively right before the start and forced us up. We ended up not having enough time to avoid which caused a collision. When we hit the leeward boat, Mike our tactician fell while trying to fend off and got his legs caught between the two boats. Half the crew jumped to his side to help him while the other half quickly took down the sails marking the end of our race."     http://tomramshaw.co.../uncategorized/

 

Fairly incriminating.

 

He must have downstairs packing a kite. 'Sail down the line'?? really? After seeing the vid he might want to update his post.

And looking at the way Mike slips down to the leeward side of the boat, that wasn't a fend-off move.



#62 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:50 PM

Am I the only one thinking random crewmembers shouldn't be blogging giving a "factual" account about an accident that had serious injuries or damage?
 

 

From a Blue crewmember's blog:

 

"On the second day we wanted to get a better start seeing as that was our main weakness from the previous day. We ended up getting to the line at the boat end to early and we tried to sail down the line a bit to kill some time. Unfortunately the boat to leeward headed up aggressively right before the start and forced us up. We ended up not having enough time to avoid which caused a collision. When we hit the leeward boat, Mike our tactician fell while trying to fend off and got his legs caught between the two boats. Half the crew jumped to his side to help him while the other half quickly took down the sails marking the end of our race."     http://tomramshaw.co.../uncategorized/

 

Fairly incriminating.

 



#63 arr4ws

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

the tactician seemed like he wanted to go at the point of impact to maybe push? look exactly at 0:59 . Te guy should just have hold to the backstay and hope for the best... never go squeeze your body between 2 boats.

 

just read the blog excerpt... yeah... fending off 50 foot sailboats... sorry but its dumb as hell



#64 vtsail

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:53 PM

I have to say having watched this a few times, the J certainly puts itself in a tough place, but if you notice, Camelot rapidly alters course up towards the J just after the tac tells the skip to put the bow down a bit.  I don't think that Camelot gives time for the J to keep clear.  That kind of quick course alteration will get you tossed all the time.



#65 Great Red Shark

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:01 PM

From a Blue crewmember's blog:

 

"On the second day we wanted to get a better start seeing as that was our main weakness from the previous day. We ended up getting to the line at the boat end to early and we tried to sail down the line a bit to kill some time. Unfortunately the boat to leeward headed up aggressively right before the start and forced us up. We ended up not having enough time to avoid which caused a collision. When we hit the leeward boat, Mike our tactician fell while trying to fend off and got his legs caught between the two boats. Half the crew jumped to his side to help him while the other half quickly took down the sails marking the end of our race."     http://tomramshaw.co.../uncategorized/

 

Fairly incriminating.

 

Wow,  just goes to show you what eye-witnesses are capable of.   This entire situation was a very badly timed start and a stone-handed reaction to that.  If he thinks that was an aggressive luff...  just wow.

 

The J quite obviously picked up speed and roared into that Full Barge position.  The correct implementation of what they were trying is often called the Late-Barge - and when you are good,  you aren't very late.  There is a very good reason there isn't an Early-Barge variation BECAUSE THATS JUST BARGING. 

 

I don't think the tactician meant to fend, - it's like they all were getting sucked into the impact site from at least 30 seconds out.   I know that these cameras give a bit of a fish-eye effect and perspectives are subjective,  but "sail down the line a bit"   (on a hot reach,  into starting traffic)  isn't really a good idea here, and they are just plain EARLY.  They don't  " sail down the line"  so much as turn into leeward giving the leeward boat very little room to do much of anything.   At the call of '12 seconds' he is where you want to be with 3 left, but they are hauling ass with nowhere to go once they put themselves past the R/Cs transom. 

 

Deer.  Headlights.    Cyclists call it Target Fixation.   It's all on windward, unfortunately.  Sorry to see that happen and I hope that everyone mends well to sail again.



#66 Trickypig

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:02 PM

 

 Tactician should put away the little GPS device and spend more time looking around.  

 

 

He was just using it as a timer since the RC was probably using GPS signal for time.

He was looking at it way to much. I count down from 20 sec in my head without looking.

 

He was looking at it often as he knows they're possibly early, lop 4 seconds off the scenario and it could have been a legend start as the helmsperson wouldn't have tried to avoid breaking the start but would have brought her up.

 

If you look at your watch and the video they were way early and would have broken regardless of where they'd steered, though.



#67 Left Hook

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

Main trimmer just sits there with the sheet in the self tailer as this whole thing is going on. No ease to help the helmsman maneuver on the dip at the start... he's even trimming the main in as the helmsman put the bow down. Then he just sits there looking around after his tactician gets bisected.



#68 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:09 PM

I am not sure that Camelot heads up at that point.  I think most of not all of the apparent change is an perspective trick because the camera is mounted on Blue.  

 

I have to say having watched this a few times, the J certainly puts itself in a tough place, but if you notice, Camelot rapidly alters course up towards the J just after the tac tells the skip to put the bow down a bit.  I don't think that Camelot gives time for the J to keep clear.  That kind of quick course alteration will get you tossed all the time.



#69 Pachyderm

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:14 PM

Totally disagee with vtsail. The significant bearing off by the J was the ultimate cause of the collision. Although the angles and distances are distorted by the wide angle lens, it sure looks like the J could have luffed up in front of the CB. It was the last minute bow-down close to the Hunter that prevented the J from being able to keep clear. I don't think the Hunter could reasonably expect them to do that. Also agree that the driver was likely following instructions but not fully aware of the developing situation.



#70 movable ballast

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:14 PM

Bummer about the injury, hopefuly a speedy and complete recovery. We all get a giggle out of crunching fiberglass but not personal injuries.

 

Having said that, It's all on Blue for all of the reason listed by others. Camelot was coming up because she was being taken up by a boat leeward of her. Plenty of time/room for blue (who should have seen it coming) to avoid the whole thing, they chose not to and paid a steep price.



#71 stinky

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:29 PM

http://www.latitude3...date=2013-04-01

Edit: decision is at the bottom of the page

#72 Great Red Shark

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:31 PM

I have to say having watched this a few times, the J certainly puts itself in a tough place, but if you notice, Camelot rapidly alters course up towards the J just after the tac tells the skip to put the bow down a bit.  I don't think that Camelot gives time for the J to keep clear.  That kind of quick course alteration will get you tossed all the time.

 

You DO know that you are allowed to sail ABOVE close-hauled before the start,  right ?   Unless that rule had been curtailed due to the "Fun Fleet" factor,  then Camelot did absolutely NOTHING that shouldn't be expected on any starting line.



#73 walterbshaffer

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:33 PM

I don't think the diagram is a diagram but rather a gps track.

 

Which track also shows Camelot taking strong actions to not be in exactly the position that Blue found itself in. Better tactics & helm on what someone called "the caravan" than Blue IMHO



#74 Autograph

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:35 PM

Avoiding being over early is no reason to ram the boat to leeward with your stern. Blue had failed her obligation to keep clear a good 10 seconds before the contact occurred. Camelot had no obligation to expect Blue breaking a rule. And, seriously, is the nimble race boat blaming the ROW pig like cruiser for manoeuvring too quickly? Love those guys.

#75 Trickypig

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:40 PM

I don't think the diagram is a diagram but rather a gps track.

 

Which track also shows Camelot taking strong actions to not be in exactly the position that Blue found itself in. Better tactics & helm on what someone called "the caravan" than Blue IMHO

 

Its a GPS plot that has little boats put on it for a protest hearing, I'd say. Have another look at the video; Camelot isn't within a bull's roar of where she is shown on the diagram.



#76 Presuming Ed

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:43 PM

Wonder why is this being posted here? I see from the results that this race was on the 28th March, and Camelot was scored 5th. 

ttp://www.vallartayachtclub.org/race/bbr2013.htm  It's all done and dusted. 

 

We don't have any facts found from any protest (if there was one), or the chance to question witnesses. As always with these things, and video evidence, it's only one view. 

 

In general terms, big boats have a lot of momentum, and can easily close a big gap at the boat end of the line. If you set up there, be prepared for your start plan to fail. Bail early and bail safe. 

 

Injuries are horrid. and awful to see. Hope he gets well soon. 



#77 Trickypig

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:49 PM

I don't think the diagram is a diagram but rather a gps track.

 

Which track also shows Camelot taking strong actions to not be in exactly the position that Blue found itself in. Better tactics & helm on what someone called "the caravan" than Blue IMHO

Looks like tracking to me? 

Well yes, Blue's track is on it, the rest is fiction.

 

Clean just likes to see us `bat it out'.



#78 tinga

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:55 PM

"Pro"... Makes me laugh. Do people of this caliber really get paid??

If you are going to set up to reach into the start you should at least have in the back of your mind that you might have to bail out. Calling bow down at 53-54 secs of the video... what did he really think would happen at this point?



#79 Presuming Ed

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:58 PM

 

I don't think the diagram is a diagram but rather a gps track.

 

Which track also shows Camelot taking strong actions to not be in exactly the position that Blue found itself in. Better tactics & helm on what someone called "the caravan" than Blue IMHO

Looks like tracking to me? 

Well yes, Blue's track is on it, the rest is fiction.

 

Clean just likes to see us `bat it out'.

Yes. My bad. 



#80 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:59 PM




Tactician should put away the little GPS device and spend more time looking around.

 
 
He was just using it as a timer since the RC was probably using GPS signal for time.


He was looking at it way to much. I count down from 20 sec in my head without looking.


 
He was looking at it often as he knows they're possibly early, lop 4 seconds off the scenario and it could have been a legend start as the helmsperson wouldn't have tried to avoid breaking the start but would have brought her up.
 
If you look at your watch and the video they were way early and would have broken regardless of where they'd steered, though.


If helm had forced the boat up within a second of when Mike called for it, and trimmer had eased off the jib, it was gold.

#81 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

There is the other boat's version on lat38 i believe.

#82 jasenj1

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

My arm-chair analysis:

0:43 Camelot alters course to windward significantly. It appears there is a boat below her she is trying to avoid. Blue helmsman doesn't appear to be able to see this and holds course.

0:47 Tactician can see Camelot coming up and commands "bow up" repeatedly. Blue helmsman does not alter course, and appears to be trying to hold course. (Watch the wheel and the committee boat. They don't move much. They would if the helmsman truly turned up.)

0:50 Rather than making sure his orders have been followed, tactician looks at timer. Bad move.

0:52 I believe the tactician says "bow down a touch" a couple times. That also seems a poor move. Camelot is still coming up. I don't believe the Blue helmsman can see Camelot.

0:53 Blue helmsman turns down a lot. I don't know why. Trying to avoid committee boat they can see? Wheel pulls hard that way? Whatever, it's a big move down.

0:54 They're screwed. Helmsman went down too far. Not enough time to get out of there.

1:00 Pain.

 

Lessons:

1) When you're driving you can't see all. Rely on other eyes and listen to their instructions closely.

2) Know who your boss is and follow their orders.

3) When you give an order, make sure that it's followed.

4) In a tight, fast developing situation, don't take your eyes off the situation.

5) If you're in charge (tactician in this case) know your crew, their limits, their experience level. Don't put them in a spot they can't handle.

 

It's a painful lesson and I hope the guy that got crunched heals quickly and fully. But it's a great example of how quickly things can go wrong - and how that can be avoided.

 

- Jasen.



#83 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

Wonder why is this being posted here? I see from the results that this race was on the 28th March, and Camelot was scored 5th. 

ttp://www.vallartayachtclub.org/race/bbr2013.htm  It's all done and dusted. 

 

We don't have any facts found from any protest (if there was one), or the chance to question witnesses. As always with these things, and video evidence, it's only one view. 

 

In general terms, big boats have a lot of momentum, and can easily close a big gap at the boat end of the line. If you set up there, be prepared for your start plan to fail. Bail early and bail safe. 

 

Injuries are horrid. and awful to see. Hope he gets well soon. 

 

 

http://www.latitude3...date=2013-04-01

Edit: decision is at the bottom of the page

 

Here is the link to the PC decision.  Interested in your take on the event.



#84 AlienBowman

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:06 PM

The only amazing thing about this run-of-the-mill barging case is that Mike, the injured tactician, represented Blue at the protest hearing.



#85 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:10 PM

Based on the PC decision, the collision occurred March 22nd, the PC hearing was March 27th, and Blue's tactician was at the hearing - at least he was well enough to attend a PC hearing.



#86 clamslapper

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

Blue vs. Camelot, last week. Blue tactician Mike Danielsen slipped when they touched, and broke both legs below the knee. Much love to Mike and Leah, and best wishes on a speedy recovery in beautiful Nuevo Vallarta.

 

 

 

Serious ouch.  Whoa. Get better!!! 

 

If you're blue and caught out barging, you turn down and take the leeward boat's stern.  Done correctly, you lose surprisingly little speed and won't be significantly late for the line in a small fleet such as this.



#87 jackdaw

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:16 PM

The only amazing thing about this run-of-the-mill barging case is that Mike, the injured tactician, represented Blue at the protest hearing.

 

Sadly, I hope that's not related to his insurance situation.



#88 jasenj1

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:23 PM

From http://www.latitude3...13-04-01#Story4

"Camelot was not aware of the contact or the injury and finished the race."

 

So despite the nasty injury, it seems the contact was very slight. A couple feet to windward and this would have been an epic start tale.

 

- Jasen.



#89 jackdaw

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:26 PM

More back-story. Everyone getting lawyered up.

 

last post on the page

 

http://www.latitude3...25#.UWW7-pOcd8E



#90 Trickypig

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:27 PM

From http://www.latitude3...13-04-01#Story4

"Camelot was not aware of the contact or the injury and finished the race."

 

So despite the nasty injury, it seems the contact was very slight. A couple feet to windward and this would have been an epic start tale.

 

- Jasen.

 

No... they were too early anyway. That's what caused it all.



#91 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

relying on info in a latitude piece is worse than relying on one here. and that's bad!



#92 Remodel

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:35 PM

Here's what I don't get - from the facts found:

 

     j. Blue was called OCS by the R/C but quickly retired due to the crew’s injuries. Blue returned to the harbor and took the crewmember to the hospital for treatment. Camelot was not aware of the contact or the injury and finished the race.

 

WTF? :blink:



#93 Presuming Ed

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:36 PM

There is the other boat's version on lat38 i believe.

Where? I see the report of the PC - i.e. the facts found and conclusions after hearing testimony from both boats and witnesses. 



#94 jackdaw

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:40 PM

There is the other boat's version on lat38 i believe.

Where? I see the report of the PC - i.e. the facts found and conclusions after hearing testimony from both boats and witnesses. 

 

This one, ed,

 

http://www.latitude3...81#.UWW4l5Ocd8E



#95 jasenj1

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:46 PM

More back-story. Everyone getting lawyered up.

 

last post on the page

 

http://www.latitude3...25#.UWW7-pOcd8E

 

To what end? I'm guessing the medical bills of the injured person are the only real monetary concern. Damage to the boats sounded minimal. What does a racing jury ruling mean from a legal stand point? Would it legally establish some sort of liability? Don't boat insurance policies have "racing not covered" clauses?

 

"Indeed, the terrible incident has the potential to undermine — if not destroy — all 'cruiser racing' in Mexico"

 

Why? Does this fall under "it's all fun and games till someone gets hurt'? As soon as a real accident happens we can't do that anymore?  :unsure: 

 

- Jasen.



#96 Asymptote

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:54 PM

Here's what I don't get - from the facts found:

 

     j. Blue was called OCS by the R/C but quickly retired due to the crew’s injuries. Blue returned to the harbor and took the crewmember to the hospital for treatment. Camelot was not aware of the contact or the injury and finished the race.

 

WTF? :blink:

 

A lot of force coming together can produce weird results.  During a Clipper Cup start in about 25 knots, I watched a guy on a 70'er (Windward Passage IIRC) slip over the side and hang on to a stanchion with his hands.  Human fender.  The 70'er next to him (Can't remember the name) came down - or WP luffed up - and they just squeezed the guy's chest, no broken ribs, no contact and with all the yelling, flogging and grinding neither driver knew a thing about it at the time.  Guy could have been hamburger easy.



#97 Dart#004

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:59 PM

Here's what I don't get - from the facts found:

 

     j. Blue was called OCS by the R/C but quickly retired due to the crew’s injuries. Blue returned to the harbor and took the crewmember to the hospital for treatment. Camelot was not aware of the contact or the injury and finished the race.

 

WTF? :blink:

To my eye, the contact was not that severe.  Some gel coat scratches is about all. But you're right; it's hard to figure that they didn't know about the collision, even if it was only slight contact. The fact that someone had his legs between the two boats is the problem.  I don't know, and am only speculating that the driver of Camelot had his eyes on the boat he was avoiding to leeward, and had no tactician paying attention to the fast approaching J on the starboard side.  Likewise, the driver of J is pretty much staring straight ahead, probably looking at the committee boat and the distance between the J and the RC.  I wonder if she knew about Camelot until it was too late.  Then she panicked and put "tiller toward trouble" which is what kids learn on day one.  That, of course, swung her stern into Camelot.  Why anybody would be so aggressive as to barge early into a BBQ race competing against floating RVs is beyond me.  Swing around or luff earlier on, or duck, start, put the burgers on the grill and pour a margarita. 



#98 RHough

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:00 PM

Here's what I don't get - from the facts found:

 

     j. Blue was called OCS by the R/C but quickly retired due to the crew’s injuries. Blue returned to the harbor and took the crewmember to the hospital for treatment. Camelot was not aware of the contact or the injury and finished the race.

 

WTF? :blink:

I was your friendly PRO for the regatta.

 

The RC was not aware there was contact between the boats at the time. When Blue went head to wind we were counting down to prep up for the next start. We expected Blue to come bombing around and give chase.

 

None of the boats on the water were aware of the reason for Blue to retire. The RC learned of the injury on the phone.

 

Camelot called the RC on VHF to report there was contact after they saw the mark on their boat and before the RC had returned to the dock.

 

Blue was scored DNF not DSQ because she retired.



#99 Foolish

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:03 PM

"And looking at the way Mike slips down to the leeward side of the boat, that wasn't a fend-off move."

 

I agree with this completely.  He was going down low to take a look and slipped.  Damn new Sperry shoes with hard soles.  I slipped on my foredeck last weekend and rubbed my ear against the mast!

 

 

 



#100 4tied

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

100% on Blue. From the vid, he's diving into the start with alot of speed, I'm not certain he was aware of Camelot until way to late. 






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