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Will there be a foiling beachcat class someday?

speculations on feasability

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#1 david r

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:40 PM

Any opinions about the following?

Perhaps you have strong feelings against such a class?

Is it realevant to try to sail off the beach with a foiler? 

Would such a class require more wind than the average sailor has access to?

Would the class be a box rule or will some builder start a factory class?  or change an existing one like say, the carbon 20 nacra?

Will all that carbon and engineering cost so much more than a stock F16 that only wealthy distance racer types that want to win their local race buy one?

 



#2 Chris O

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

My opinion... there will always be a place for high end, race boats with all the bells and whistles for the speed merchant folks who have to have the latest stuff. For recreational sailors, which is what the original beach cat lifestyle folks were all about, the need is not for a boat that costs more and is more difficult to sail. It is for a boat that is more affordable, easier to sail/launch and can be maintained with a minimum of skills and expenditures.

 

For now, foils are an interesting application for the small segment of the boating world where they apply. But, just like they did not exist some years ago in the mainstream, they will, once again, find their way to less popularity when some other technology makes its presence known. It's inevitable.



#3 Doug Lord

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:58 PM

There have already been foiling beach cats-several of them. The problem is :are they faster than their non foiling didplacement sisters? I think there is an excellent chance that a modern beach cat foiler can be successfully done with any cat that already has curved trunks. The combination curved foil+ "L" (or "J")foil pioneered and refined by TNZ's 72 is a dramatic improvement on traditional surface piercing foilers(using only one main foil at a time). In conjunction with rudder "L" foils you have a potential foiler that will work. The Flying Phantom is an example of of beach cat type that is already foiling with a single main foil used at a time. It is not a standard F18, but a modified version that really foils(so you can see under the lee foil).

Other than Sail Innovation and the Flying Phantom I know of one other cat builder that is seriously considering a foiling product. And there are undoubtedly more due to the breakthru technology filtering down from the AC.

Martin Fischer's foil systems have tremendous potential for low wetted surface foils. He is part of the Sail Innovation Team, but his foils are not used on the Phantom in the video.....

 

Flying Phantom:  http://www.sail-innovation.com/

 

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

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#4 barney

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:50 PM

There was a foiling Hobie Tiger a few month back. It's more interesting, because the HT is not exactly high tech. They reported boat speeds of over 32knots on their second outing.

 

FoilingTiger1.jpg

 

more images here



#5 Chris O

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

That's nifty, Barney.

 

Can it be driven up onto the beach without scorching the foils to pieces?



#6 knobblyoldjimbo

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:56 PM

We had the A class circus at Mannering Park last year.  Mixing it with the 14ft cats was ok most of the time however one A had its bow removed by a 14.  I can't imagine what it would be like if some were foiling!



#7 Rawhide

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:52 PM

The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was banned.



#8 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:12 PM

That's nifty, Barney.

 

Can it be driven up onto the beach without scorching the foils to pieces?

That is the thing I was wondering.  I always thought the Windrider Rave or Hobie Trifoiler looked like fun, but I have no beach to wade out in, and don't see trying to climb in off the dock. Can't take it in the shallows.  So its a no-go.

 

The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was banned.

For pure performance maybe.

But to me the lure, the advantage of a foiling beachcat over say, a moth, is....it's still a beachcat! Can take friends. Can goof around with a beer in your hand.  Doesn't fall over when you stop...  It still has uses other than the quest for pure speed.   The moth type will never be a 'mainstream' recreational craft for those very reasons.

 

That Tiger would be really cool if it could be easily converted back to a stock F-18.

Then you can have it all, beach cat, a cool fast fun foiler machine, or race with the other F-18s.  Or establish a rating with the foils and race it that way.

Does the standard boat need beefed up or modified to add the foils?



#9 Doug Lord

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:39 PM

That's nifty, Barney.

 

Can it be driven up onto the beach without scorching the foils to pieces?

That is the thing I was wondering.  I always thought the Windrider Rave or Hobie Trifoiler looked like fun, but I have no beach to wade out in, and don't see trying to climb in off the dock. Can't take it in the shallows.  So its a no-go.

 

>The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was banned.

For pure performance maybe.

But to me the lure, the advantage of a foiling beachcat over say, a moth, is....it's still a beachcat! Can take friends. Can goof around with a beer in your hand.  Doesn't fall over when you stop...  It still has uses other than the quest for pure speed.   The moth type will never be a 'mainstream' recreational craft for those very reasons.

 

That Tiger would be really cool if it could be easily converted back to a stock F-18.

Then you can have it all, beach cat, a cool fast fun foiler machine, or race with the other F-18s.  Or establish a rating with the foils and race it that way.

Does the standard boat need beefed up or modified to add the foils?

 

A cat foiler like the Phantom would just require a normal cat dolly to go along with the retractable foils . Unless you're nuts you wouldn't sail the horizontal part of the "L" foil up on the beach! Around here the cat guys keep there dollies close to the beach and the more peformance oriented guys never sail up on the beach-just jump off in 8" and get the dolly. No change from the way they do it now to the way they'd do it with foils.



#10 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:43 PM

hmm.

Ama foils, and a foiling rudder assembly for my Tremolino.

Sounds simple enough.

hmmmmmmmm



#11 Doug Lord

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:48 PM

The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was banned.

A cat foiler will never be as efficient as a Moth or other well designed monofoiler but a trimaran foiler with small amas, a big rig and an oversquare platform would get close and surely whup the cat foiler if it was designed to fly the main hull using foils in 5-6 knots of wind or so.

The modern cat foiler, using low wetted surface foils like TNZ or Fischers, is likely to be faster than its non-foiling counterpart. But flying must be flying-no just kissing the surface -daylight under the lee hull or its not foiling in the public mind especially when you have Moths and TNZ/Oracle to compare with.



#12 Chris O

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:34 AM

...and the more peformance oriented guys never sail up on the beach-just jump off in 8" and get the dolly. No change from the way they do it now to the way they'd do it with foils.

 

And every person who ever had a beach cat and enjoyed them as a beach lifestyle sporting product now knows that you have never sailed a beach cat the way they were meant to be sailed. Yeah, right, just hop on off in 8" of water and run up the beach for the trolley... Good grief. Get out of the house once in awhile and do some real sailing.

 

Too freakin' much, Doug. It's no wonder that you don't ever get it when people talk to you about the real sailboat industry for the typical recreational user. What do you do when your sailing area has a consistent shore break anywhere from 1 to 3 feet? I know what cat sailors here in California do; they sail their boats right on up on the beach with the break and then slide them further up and out of reach of the surge. To go out, they launch directly off the beach right through the shore break and the chop.

 

How about you take a long look at what happens during the Worrel 1000, for instance (the tapes are on Youtube here: http://www.youtube.c...c.1.acP-yXyMw44 ) and you can instantly see the lameness in your description. "OK, boys, let's all be big girls and quietly haul our foily boats out into the water where it is deep enough for our fragile foils".  Funny stuff.

 

For races such as the Watertribe Everglades Challenge, which has been won numerous times by a beach cat Tornado, you'd have to get a total pass on the start requirements so that your pussy foiler could be carried down into the water and not launch like the rest of the big boys.

 

I like The O Mask's suggestion of having a boat that can do many different things, depending on the interest of the owner and the conditions as presented. With that type of design solution, the boat is not design dependent on one mode that has a big price premium for that one feature. Leave the foils off if you want and still have a blast. Add them later when and if, it suits you.



#13 Doug Lord

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:51 AM

 

That's nifty, Barney.

 

Can it be driven up onto the beach without scorching the foils to pieces?

That is the thing I was wondering.  I always thought the Windrider Rave or Hobie Trifoiler looked like fun, but I have no beach to wade out in, and don't see trying to climb in off the dock. Can't take it in the shallows.  So its a no-go.

 

>The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was b

anned.

For pure performance maybe.

But to me the lure, the advantage of a foiling beachcat over say, a moth, is....it's still a beachcat! Can take friends. Can goof around with a beer in your hand.  Doesn't fall over when you stop...  It still has uses other than the quest for pure speed.   The moth type will never be a 'mainstream' recreational craft for those very reasons.

 

That Tiger would be really cool if it could be easily converted back to a stock F-18.

Then you can have it all, beach cat, a cool fast fun foiler machine, or race with the other F-18s.  Or establish a rating with the foils and race it that way.

Does the standard boat need beefed up or modified to add the foils?

A cat foiler like the Phantom would just require a normal cat dolly to go along with the retractable foils . Unless you're nuts you wouldn't sail the horizontal part of the "L" foil up on the beach! Around here the cat guys keep there dollies close to the beach* and the more peformance oriented guys never sail up on the beach-just jump off in 8" and get the dolly. No change from the way they do it now to the way they'd do it with foils.

 

 

* Cats here primarily sail off the beach at Kelley Park on the Banana River.  Beach dollies are at about 10' from the waters edge.



#14 bones M

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:41 AM

I have a H16 and my local launches  are typical mountain lakes.  The launch is a smooth ramp--the edges covered in boulders and choss.  I have to hit irons on a dime when coming in under power.  Still jumping out to grap the bridles in 3'.   Trade winds put the dock on the wrong side (lee)...naturally.  I nail it every time.    Technique doesn't change with boards (foiled or otherwise)...just the lifting time.  One person holds the boat, the other goes for the truck/trailer or dolly.

 

I don't know what sailing off a beach is :)



#15 bacho

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:10 PM



...and the more peformance oriented guys never sail up on the beach-just jump off in 8" and get the dolly. No change from the way they do it now to the way they'd do it with foils.

 
And every person who ever had a beach cat and enjoyed them as a beach lifestyle sporting product now knows that you have never sailed a beach cat the way they were meant to be sailed. Yeah, right, just hop on off in 8" of water and run up the beach for the trolley... Good grief. Get out of the house once in awhile and do some real sailing.
 
Too freakin' much, Doug. It's no wonder that you don't ever get it when people talk to you about the real sailboat industry for the typical recreational user. What do you do when your sailing area has a consistent shore break anywhere from 1 to 3 feet? I know what cat sailors here in California do; they sail their boats right on up on the beach with the break and then slide them further up and out of reach of the surge. To go out, they launch directly off the beach right through the shore break and the chop.
 
How about you take a long look at what happens during the Worrel 1000, for instance (the tapes are on Youtube here: http://www.youtube.c...c.1.acP-yXyMw44 ) and you can instantly see the lameness in your description. "OK, boys, let's all be big girls and quietly haul our foily boats out into the water where it is deep enough for our fragile foils".  Funny stuff.
 
For races such as the Watertribe Everglades Challenge, which has been won numerous times by a beach cat Tornado, you'd have to get a total pass on the start requirements so that your pussy foiler could be carried down into the water and not launch like the rest of the big boys.
 
I like The O Mask's suggestion of having a boat that can do many different things, depending on the interest of the owner and the conditions as presented. With that type of design solution, the boat is not design dependent on one mode that has a big price premium for that one feature. Leave the foils off if you want and still have a blast. Add them later when and if, it suits you.

X2, when possible I drive my i20 straight up the beach. Pretty fun stuff. We can't lose sight of what makes a beach cat a beach cat.

#16 fireball

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:37 PM

I remember an interesting brass monkeys regatta in Sydney a few years ago. There were 18 footers, A class cats and a foiling moth. The race started in about 15 knots with the moth leading, the A classes second and the 18 footers trailing. The gaps weren't huge, but there was a definite speed difference.

But the breeze dropped off on the final run to the finish. The moth stopped foiling and parked and the A classes overtook the moth. Then the 18 footer, with its big rig spinnaker, overtook them all and won the race.

Top speed in optimal conditions can be very different to speed around a course in a variety of conditions. I don't think any of the boats around are anywhere near fully developed and that includes the moths.

Things are changing so quickly in sailing, but foiling cats like the foiling SL33s of ETNZ or the foiling AC45s of OR and Artemis look awesome. A smaller version could work as well. The foils could exit the side of the hull so you wouldn't damage them when launching.

#17 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

How about a stepped hull and the foils retract right behind the step?

Of course the required shape of the foils could be an issue.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the rudder(s) and foil/wand control or whathaveyou. 



#18 Doug Lord

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 09:04 PM

The refined version of TNZ foils with virtulally automatic altitude control is about as simple as you can get and therein lies their brilliance.



#19 Chris O

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:23 AM

...and that certainly qualifies as a beach cat, doesn't it?

 

Hammer in hand, the poor soul looked about for that promised sea of nails, only to be without task. "Simple", said the fool, "I'll fabricate nonsense just to fill the air until my anticipated sea of nails comes into view. It's out there... somewhere."



#20 david r

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:38 AM

It does seem like foiling daggerboardss could be made to work for hi-speed landings, but dagger rudders; i don't know.

How does a j rudder behave in a kickup rudder set-up while part way down?

Originally the question was meant to find out if there will be a small cat class meant to foil as opposed to

the A class which has rules preventing foiling.

Perhaps the C class will be the first foiling cat class, but their activities are mostly secret.  Also 25' is a little bigger than most beachcats.

Maybe the 18 square will make a come back as a foiling class?

The lack of foiling type winds around the most of the biggest sailing areas in N. America will prolly keep intrest low for most.

For those with wind though, maybe the foil ride will make life easier?



#21 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:01 AM

It does seem like foiling daggerboardss could be made to work for hi-speed landings, but dagger rudders; i don't know.

How does a j rudder behave in a kickup rudder set-up while part way down?

Originally the question was meant to find out if there will be a small cat class meant to foil as opposed to

the A class which has rules preventing foiling.

Perhaps the C class will be the first foiling cat class, but their activities are mostly secret.  Also 25' is a little bigger than most beachcats.

Maybe the 18 square will make a come back as a foiling class?

The lack of foiling type winds around the most of the biggest sailing areas in N. America will prolly keep intrest low for most.

For those with wind though, maybe the foil ride will make life easier?

See earlier: the Phantom is already foiling! It's relatively simple to make an automatically neutralizing rudder lifting foil-rudder would kick up like a "normal" kick up rudder and when it does foil would neutralize in order to not pull the transom out of the boat.

 

Here is a rough idea of how a foil could work and be clear of the bottom when retracted-foil would be on inboard side of hull :

Attached Files



#22 fireball

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:20 AM

How about a stepped hull and the foils retract right behind the step?

Of course the required shape of the foils could be an issue.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the rudder(s) and foil/wand control or whathaveyou. 

 

Or a little skeg that protects the foils, but doesn't increase the wetted surface much when underway and not foiling.

 

The rudders can be in rudder box. Lot's of boats have t-foil or L-foil rudders already.



#23 Chris O

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:01 AM

The Phantom may be foiling, well, at least one of them is doing so. The price is USA$26K without taxes, without shipping from Europe, no foils, trunks, rudders or any other stuff it needs to take it to the next level. The only price I could find on the Web for the boat is a $40K figure that apparently nobody with any cred has been able, or willing, to refute.

 

Forty Thousand Bucks!!! for what is, essentially, a beach cat with a trick up its sleeve. Automatically, the possible market is going to be very, very tiny. And that's the threshold argument, isn't it? The market is teeny, it's primarily a racing machine and the folks who are going to buck-up for the heavy cash are going to be few and far between... makes real racing a seriously tough enterprise when you have to drive thousands of miles to get a collection of boats together for anything like a race of meaning in the class.

 

Then, just when you do get dialed into the boat as a piece of tech that you have gotten some kind of handle on... the class, which is bound to be one where nutsy development is the rage, evolves away from your already throttled budget and poof, the magic evaporates and the boat goes on the block. It's at this point that the factory will sense the struggle out there in sailboat owning land and they will drop on back and punt the foiler off the product list and focus on getting standard cats out the door to save the business. Guffaw all you like, but Bladerider has gone to bare bones marketing with their boats, especially the fiberglass version of the Moth they build... I suspect that there just aren't the sales out there that they once had and they are scrambling to keep the boats going somewhere besides five high in the back room of the factory. Push their product price into the $40K region and it sounds like a recipe for a dead company.

 

I see foilers as novelties for a production scheme in the future... you know, pretty much like the major auto companies produce one-off design studies to wow the car buying audience, but never really intending to market that product as a production vehicle because the heavy budget R&D, the prototyping, the tooling and sales costs would totally limit the buying market place and that's just not prudent business practice for anyone, especially in the sailboat business and especially in this global economy we are still seeing.

 

Anything else is simply Aladdin's Lamp stuff with his blueness, Doug Lord, as the gaseous genie who comes out of the bottle to spew silliness.



#24 Catnewbie

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:53 AM

Hi Everybody,

IMHO, the F18 High Tech box rules, could be the perfect base for the first foiling beach cat.

Probably, the cat boat configuration wont be optimum, but with main+jib conf, probably less conflict
for the centerboard position not too far behind the main cross-beam.

Cheers Everybody

W

#25 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:12 PM

It's so important that this is done right-I hope nobody comes out with a boat they claim to be a foiler that really doesn't fly-that's the worst publicity possible. Given the history of foiling catamarans being slow, any new boats have got to be faster than displ. cats the same length-substantially so.
Given all that, I think there is enormous potential here.

Article here: http://www.catsailin...rview-with.html

From the article:
- CSN: Future projects from Bimare?
VP: Our future projects mainly concern the development of A class and F16. Our goal is to bring back our boats at the top of the world rankings. We are planning various tests on rudders and boards to get the “right” amount of lift in all point of sail. We are working also on masts and sails in view of the European championship in Barcelona. Finally we are thinking about a new light 18-footer, an upgraded version of our 18HT incorporating all the latest innovations which are making AC72s so fast In short .... we're having fun!

More info on Bimare at www.bimare.org



#26 Tony-F18

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:45 PM

Dont forget to checkout the Foiling 20c project as well, its basically a regular F20c but with foiling boards.

https://www.facebook.com/FoilingF20c

 

From what I understand the boards are designed by the same guys that build the DNA A-Class boats.



#27 bhyde

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

No horse in this race, but it seems like there are lot of used, one-generation old F-18's (tiger, nacra, caps) around that might be available for conversion. If they could be configured to switch back and forth from F-18 to F-18F (foiler) with a minimum of trouble, I could see a class coming together. I doubt any manufacturer would put together any real effort until a more homegrown class got momentum. As Chris said, $40K is pretty pricey for a beach cat.

 

As far as driving a foil cat on to the beach, just pull the boards up to the bottom of the hull and drive up. Just don't do it at 20kts! Or how about an L-foil with a hinge at the L joint that can be unlocked to allow the board to come through the hull?



#28 rexdenton

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:10 PM

No horse in this race, but it seems like there are lot of used, one-generation old F-18's (tiger, nacra, caps) around that might be available for conversion. If they could be configured to switch back and forth from F-18 to F-18F (foiler) with a minimum of trouble, I could see a class coming together. I doubt any manufacturer would put together any real effort until a more homegrown class got momentum. As Chris said, $40K is pretty pricey for a beach cat.

 

As far as driving a foil cat on to the beach, just pull the boards up to the bottom of the hull and drive up. Just don't do it at 20kts! Or how about an L-foil with a hinge at the L joint that can be unlocked to allow the board to come through the hull?

 

Speaking for myself (and from my  own experience), the edge provided by radical improvements in technology can often work against class growth, cost, participation and overall racing skill and in lots of cases, teamwork.  Technological innovation, if not managed to find a sweet spot of these variables, can enable a technology/money war on the platforms, which ultimately creates a moribund collection of mongrel boats sailed by hypertechnology enthusiasts who often don't sail very well.  

 

F18 seems to have gotten the balance of these variables about right, IMHO.   It is reflected by a growing class of diverse manufacturers and owners.  The class includes sailors of considerable economic diversity.  Skill level is still the predictor of success in the class. Unlike other classes, skill has not been supplanted (yet) by revolutionary technological improvements;  older boats are very competitive.  If an old boat still 'goes fast' relative to the rest in the fleet, older boats are purchased as starters, and both new sailors and new boats come into the class, (who wants to on the line with only 4 mongrel boats?).   IMHO sailing is expensive enough with new sails and keeping the rig running well, who wants or has the means to get  the latest new platform every 3 years.  Hell a new F18 is $23K already!
 

As an aside,  some technology oriented  and hyper-performance guys 'exploring' the F18 class  have highly mixed results in F18. I think some of the poorer experiences arise because the sailors have confused their wallet and technological advantage with the greater benefits provided by good sailing skills and teamwork.  FWIW, those are the guys we see once, and never see again in the class.   The skilled guys come in and, next year, have bought an old boat and show up at every race.   Us?  We are mid-fleeters ... and struggling to stay there as the fleet has grown and the talent level has improved!



#29 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

I'd say the 40+ grand is simply bullshit for a foiling cat. When manufacturers get involved the price will be just a little over the price of a similar cat w/o the lifting foils. But the most critical thing is that these new foiling boats :
1) really foil,
2) and are faster than non foiler's significantly.
Otherwise this new enthusiasm for foiling will just evaporate.....

#30 Chris O

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:57 PM

I'd say the 40+ grand is simply bullshit for a foiling cat. When manufacturers get involved the price will be just a little over the price of a similar cat w/o the lifting foils. But the most critical thing is that these new foiling boats :
1) really foil,
2) and are faster than non foiler's significantly.
Otherwise this new enthusiasm for foiling will just evaporate.....

 

They will be significantly more than a non-foiling cat simply because all the R&D time, (guys like Fischer don't come cheap) the development time (lot's of ooops, that didn't work stuff, e.g., Paradox) and the whole business of marketing a specific brand within the marque... and those costs have to be amortized into each and every boat produced in order to cover the cost of getting the new model to market. It's amazing how little you understand about product development and sales strategies, Doug.

 

Now, about that $40K figure that has been tossed into the stream regarding the Phantom... Sail Innovation, who makes the base boat, has known of that figure for some time now and they haven't said peep about how much the new boat would cost, if they are actually going to put it out there for sale. Seems to me that the folks who would take the hit, or not, based on a suggested price point, would want to set the record straight as soon as possible to avoid market anxiety and have a fair chance at producing a boat that might actually see some sales action. Since you have shown that you know next to zip about how to price and market a boat and the associated costs to get it to market, perhaps the BS of which you speak is sitting right next to you?

 

Maybe it's more of a function of, You Wish It Didn't Cost That Much, because that would toss a serious damper on the foilista party. I suggest that you don't know what it might cost and that you are scared shitless that the $40K figure just might be right. Right off the Sail Innovation site: http://www.sail-inno...ts/f18-phantom/

 

"The Phantom is available in different colors and graphics.

 

Price 19650 Euros ex tax, ex factory (Europe) for standard colors (white, black or red) with a full set of SAIL INNOVATION sails." 

 

That's US$25.771, not including taxes, or shipping to your destination from Europe. As you can see, the world of F18's is getting more and more expensive and not less.

 

One thing is for sure... an F18, fully rigged for flying, is going to cost a lot more than a standard beach cat like those they produce now. You need to stop fluffing the readers here and get correct with the real costs associated with the production of a flying beach cat that the readers have come to know as such.



#31 david r

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:26 PM

How about a small, say 14' that was designed without the constraint of sailing in light wind.

Figure out the rudders so a high speed landing isn't a problem.  Put a jib for control in a surf launch.

Set your foil package once in deep water, and bring back some heavy air racing.  Youths might like it.

On another note if you had a 2-up 18 like that you might be able to get rid of the spi. in those same strong winds.  the 72's don't use the spi. for foiling in a breeze.



#32 sailingkid

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:43 PM

Why does it have to be able to crash into the beach? It only seems like a useful trick to have coming into the finish of one of those distance races, however a boat like this will probably have high tech construction (I hope) and driving it onto the beach seems crazy, I think I've only seen one A class do it, and I won't even do it with Dads Hobie 16, let alone the A, I certainly can't see the need to drive a nice foiler up there!

#33 david r

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:23 PM

Why does it have to be able to crash into the beach? It only seems like a useful trick to have coming into the finish of one of those distance races, however a boat like this will probably have high tech construction (I hope) and driving it onto the beach seems crazy, I think I've only seen one A class do it, and I won't even do it with Dads Hobie 16, let alone the A, I certainly can't see the need to drive a nice foiler up there!

to race in races like the Great Texas 300, and to sail where i sail.



#34 sailingkid

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:04 AM

Fair enough, I suppose Doug's solution kind if makes sense then where the foil is above the bottom of the hull.

#35 Doug Lord

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:18 AM

 

Fair enough, I suppose Doug's solution kind if makes sense then where the foil is above the bottom of the hull.

-------------------
SK, the problem with my solution is that it exacerbates the inboard movement of the center of lift of the lee foil, reducucing RM a bit. That 20 footer mentioned earlier is even worse in that respect.
-----
Does the Fischer system on the A Cat require both main foils to be down 100% of the time?

#36 Chris O

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:18 AM

Fair enough, I suppose Doug's solution kind if makes sense then where the foil is above the bottom of the hull.

 

Then Doug needs to prove that his "solution" will actually work in the real world. Ideas are cheap. Getting them to work as advertised is what matters. Ask Dario how that works.

 

Trouble with the design is that the center of effort of the foil is now way inboard, which robs precious righting moment from the overall design. The way to get it back...? Sure, you just make the boat wider, but that now makes the boat non-trailer legal, requiring a snazzy, canting trailer much like that used by Tornados. More expense, more fiddle factor and the outcome of that is a boat used less often. Soon enough, you'll be hearing it from the lady of the house... "Why is that thing just sitting there on the side of the garage and you never use it anymore? And tell me again... How much did it cost for it to just sit there, collecting spiders?"

 

Doulas doesn't think about this stuff in a pragmatic fashion because he doesn't have a boat and doesn't have a wife/girlfriend to give him that perspective. When you get to cook stuff up in a vacuum, then the pragmatism flies out the window.



#37 Lummux the Great

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 03:01 AM

Jesus Chris O, Take your Gay Love bullshit for DL somewhere else, like the F22 thread. Ian Farrier Loves you more then DL does.



#38 Chris O

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:17 PM

That's it, Lummy? Not a word on the topic? Did I hurt your feelings when I told you it was over?



#39 Lummux the Great

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:37 PM

That's it, Lummy? Not a word on the topic? Did I hurt your feelings when I told you it was over?

 

That was actually really funny! :)

But lets face it. Foiling is faster, just ask Artemis. Sure, the first foiling cats will be expensive, and often slower than swimming hulls... for now. But the AC boats have proven the vialability of the concept, and I'm willing to wager all of these "problems" with the first generation production foiling beach cats have solutions... It would take a creative person with education in Engineering to solve them, but we all know you were educated in the humanities. Picking on DL is like picking on the kids that ride the short bus to school... it just makes you look like an ass. The guy has had a hard on for foiling boats for years, and now there are 72' cats foiling in the AC, let the guy enjoy himself, Ignore him in your user options, and move on.



#40 Chris O

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:59 AM

Remember the famous winged keel on the Australian AC boat that conquered the moment? That was supposed to set the world on fire, as well. All sorts of folks fell all over themselves trying like hell to get the concept to work on regular boats and it went.... well we all know where it went, right? So much for the grandeur and viability of the AC as a test bed for workable solutions for what ails sailing craft and the diminishing sales volumes so connected.

 

Same is true for all sorts of gimmicky stuff like canting keels for go-fast machines. Race boats?... sure. Rec boats, where the sales volume, that all important seed bed and value is... never saw the moment when it came to fruition. Foils sure look like fun for the onlooker, but they are not passing the acid test of,  just how do you get them into the hands of the average Joe weekend warrior and have them make sense when there's soooo much to learn just to get a passing grade. Becoming proficient... forget it. Affording the uptick on the cash clock... really forget it.

 

Truth is, more is happening that truly makes a difference in areas like sail development, mast technology, ropes, material science and a whole host of other stuff that is nowhere near as sexy, image-wise, as when one perceives themselves doing the Peter Pan routine. All those boring technological advances actually stay around for awhile, filter on down to rec boats, improve the lives and sporting joy for the common sailor and it is they, the boring ones, that have a chance to actually get sailing, as an industry, back on the mainstream recreational list for a larger audience.

 

Foiling is OK for racers, as long as they realize going in that the expenditure is just the flavor of the month that will get them by until the next baddest thing comes tooling down the road to their egos and imaginations. Then, POOOF! away will fly the foils for the newest, coolest thing. Understand... I'm not against foils. What I am against is wholesale slobbering on the topic, as if it is a substitute for lack of imagination and well-thought out innovative design solutions that can work for a much broader audience. Foiling is an automatic, self-limiting device when it comes to the development of a product. Choose to go with foils and you choose to pin yourself into a design corner with specific limitations and applications

 

The process of Design is not a raid on the parts department, where one slams a wad of haphazard ideas together in order to feed one's pre-conceived Jones of the moment. It's about studying and understanding the market in order to produce solutions that, yes, make use of technological concepts and material science, where appropriate, as a part of the overall approach. It is not about how to shove a device onto everything in sight and call it good because one is infatuated with the specific technology and just has to see it employed. The first process has lasting value and timelessness associated and the second approach is a brief fling with obsolescence.

 

Lastly, one doesn't have to be an engineer to be a great designer in the boat world. One does need to understand the discipline in order to keep things moving along, but it's not necessary to be a credentialed scholar in order to create wonderful boats. I'll not list the floating failures that can be totally attributed to engineers, but suffice to say, the bottom is littered with the examples of inspired engineering. Ask the guys in the last Vendee Globe if they are all comfortable with the engineering gurus who designed their boats. One doesn't win if one doesn't finish.



#41 bhyde

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:01 PM

I think OP's original question was whether or not a foiling cat class was possible and whether you could get one on and off the beach. Who said it had to be available to the average Joe? Who said it had to be practical? Why do we give a crap about how it might "improve the lives and sporting joy for the common sailor." Practicality and accessibility do not determine a classes success or failure (A-cat, I14, etc). It's a hypothetical question.



#42 Chris O

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

If you can't get it on and off the beach without wrecking it, what's the point? And that is where the practical argument enters the picture. Practical enters the picture for just about every boat in existence for one reason or another. You have made this same argument many times in the past about boats you own, or have owned.

 

Seriously, you're going to ask about the efficacy of how a boat improves one's life and sporting joy? If it's not a work boat, then what the hell is it? Take a look at your own avatar.

 

Does it fit in my garage, can I car top it, will it fit in a slip I can afford, what freakin' color is it, can my wife take a crap in it, do I look like a stud when I haul it out at the club, can I afford the damn thing, does it take skill sets I do not possess... and on and on goes the practical aspects of our goofy love affair with boats. All of it tied very closely to our practical limits.

 

You guys have righteously roasted posting individuals here for sticking artist's renderings of proposed vessels that were not connected to anything "practical". The Bay Area dude who built and wrecked his aluminum tubing, "round the world trimaran" some years back got the royal, what an asshole, treatment because he wasn't practical.



#43 dogwatch

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

I think OP's original question was whether or not a foiling cat class was possible and whether you could get one on and off the beach. Who said it had to be available to the average Joe?

The word "beachcat" in the title? Doesn't that imply a certain rugged practicality? Of course a foiling cat class is possible and of course you could sail it off the beach. It's hardly worth asking the question - if that were the question.

I know quite a few foiling Moth sailors. They are fabulous boats for which I have nothing but admiration. However none of "rugged", "practical" or "cheap" apply.



#44 Doug Lord

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:37 PM

It's really a moot point: at least three catamaran builders are actively pursuing a foiling performance "beachcat". It is not only possible but a sure thing before too long. There is too much potential excitement about a relatively easy to sail foiler for the lid to be put back on the box with uninformed, unimaginitive jaw boning. Sailing off a surf beach may not be too practical-the East Coast Catamaran Association has more off the beach events sailed off of places like Kelly Park on Merritt Island and other such sites than they do "off a surf beach" events. Some guys don't like to tear up their boats in surf when excellent alternatives exist. But surf capable foiling cats will doubtless be among the new crop of foiling cats..

Wait for it-it's just around the corner .....

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#45 Chocko

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:52 PM

Why did the Rave or hobie trifoiler never become mainstream?? 



#46 david r

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:36 PM

Thanks for all the input.

Prolly the results of the Little Americas Cup in September will have some bearing on the subject.

It should be windy there.  Isn't most of the foiling developement on 18 and 20' cats being done by C cat teams?

The Paradox guys seem to be developing a skimmer that also will be fast in the light stuff, but that system sounds really workable for a small, high wind full foiler.  Very creative.



#47 Chris O

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:47 PM

/

Why did the Rave or hobie trifoiler never become mainstream?? 

 

Too fiddly, too susceptible to damage, too much maintenance, too limited in scope, too limited in the wind strength necessary to foil, too limited in the surface conditions. Far more susceptible to extraneous stuff in the water that got wrapped around the foils requiring a full stop, get out of the cockpit and swim the shit off. Poorly understood by the buying public. Too much money in the comparison to other boats that didn't have these issues.

 

Any one, or two, of these problems would probably have been enough to send the prospects packing, but a whole pile of them in one machine makes for a really daunting sales job for the dealers who bought-in. All this in spite of the fact that the two boats were being presented by companies with financial legs and solid distribution resources.

 

It's for these same reasons that a recreational sailing anything with foils will have a major mountain to climb and in this economic day and age, that's way too much to ask of any product. When you read stuff from hyper-ventilating foilistas, they always look the other way and pretend it still isn't going on when they are asked to address these problems. Some of the issues can be, or have been addressed, but many remain and those are still quite large obstacles to a receptive recreational sailing community that is shrinking by the year.



#48 Doug Lord

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:23 PM

Why did the Rave or hobie trifoiler never become mainstream?? 

I've got a bunch of hours sailing a Rave and I know a bit about the Trifoiler. Both boats were exceptional in heavy air because of their dual ,independent altitude control systems that not only provided vertical lift but also provided all the righting moment for the boats-up to the structural limit of the boat. The Rave is rugged and was also the first "modern" foiler to be foiled with manual control instead of it's normal wand based altitude control system. The Trifoiler was probably faster than the Rave.

The Achilles heel of both boats was weight which had a profound affect on when they would foil in terms of required windstrength. Both needed 12-15 knots to foil with a single person, but the average wind speed across the US is under 10 knots. So much of the time, in many places across the country, the wind was too light to foil. The Rave will sail off the foils-you can tack upwind etc. albeit slower than another multihull its size. The times I witnessed a Trifoiler in non-foiling conditions it would hardly make headway.

You've hit on probably the most important point of this whole thread: if foiling is to become widespread the boats must foil in, say 7 knots of wind, or else people will be pissed ,word will spread and the dream will die.  Thats a bit dramatic because the new boats will have more SA per sq.ft. of foil area than the Rave and Trifoiler(probably) and will be catamarans first. In fact, people may not buy them just to foil but to sail for fun with foiling being the bonus. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Just as a reference, the newest Bradfield design-his last before his death- is an exceptional foiling trimaran that takes off in 6-7 knots of wind. See picture:

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#49 bhyde

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:25 AM

If you can't get it on and off the beach without wrecking it, what's the point? And that is where the practical argument enters the picture. Practical enters the picture for just about every boat in existence for one reason or another. You have made this same argument many times in the past about boats you own, or have owned.

 

Seriously, you're going to ask about the efficacy of how a boat improves one's life and sporting joy? If it's not a work boat, then what the hell is it? Take a look at your own avatar.

 

Does it fit in my garage, can I car top it, will it fit in a slip I can afford, what freakin' color is it, can my wife take a crap in it, do I look like a stud when I haul it out at the club, can I afford the damn thing, does it take skill sets I do not possess... and on and on goes the practical aspects of our goofy love affair with boats. All of it tied very closely to our practical limits.

 

You guys have righteously roasted posting individuals here for sticking artist's renderings of proposed vessels that were not connected to anything "practical". The Bay Area dude who built and wrecked his aluminum tubing, "round the world trimaran" some years back got the royal, what an asshole, treatment because he wasn't practical.

 

OK got it. If the "common sailor" isn't part of the equation, then it's all over. Call me crazy but it sure seems like there are scads of massively impractical boats in our yard - I14's, 49ers, A-Cats, Canoes, Moths, H20's, Aussie18's, etc. There is nothing remotely practical about these boats and your wife isn't going to take a shit on one. Yet, they don't seem to be having any problem hitting the water every weekend, even without a nice white sandy beach. People will put up with a lot of crap to sail some really whacky stuff. Seems like a an Air Cat would fit right. I say you'll see a foiling cat developmental class in less than 5 years. In 10 years Hobie/Nacra/etc. will all have off-the-shelf foilers that will be marketed to 14 year old girls and retirees as the most practical, fun and relaxing sailboat ever built. With speeds into the 40's and cup holders standard. All the sails will have a huge portrait of Doug on them to honor his wisdom (RIP Doug) and Hobie will call their 5-boat foiling cat line (14', 16', 18', 18' WingSail, 20' Mega Carbon WingSail Deluxe) the LordyCats. You'll see, you bastard. All the non-foiling cats will be called Chris-O-My-God-Why-Aren't-They-Foiling-Dream-Crushers and only burnt out meth-heads will sail them from deserted beaches in foreign countries with horrific human rights violation on file at the UN and child prostitution as a national pastime. Foiling cats are going to take over the entire world MF'er!

 

Ok maybe not quite that far, but you get the idea. It's just a matter of time. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

 

BTW: the Tin Can got panned because, like Hotrod's plywood abortion, it was a galactic hunk of shit that wasn't going to last 20 minutes in any real weather. Not because Joe Cal20 couldn't buy one or David Van Dumb couldn't tow it with his Prius. C'mon, you saw that thing.



#50 Catnewbie

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

Back to the original question,

I d suggest that the best way to have someday a beach foiling cat is to start from scratch and put on the paper what are the optimum/ cost effective solutions within a "technological envelop" to achieve the goal.

So far the first foiling beach cat is not a F18 + L Foils, she is a custom build boat designed especially for foiling around F18 hulls shape.

So it could be wise to start by the question:

What would be the optimum cat base for foiling (for 1 crew or for 2 crew)

Cheers

W

#51 Chris O

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:01 PM

... Call me crazy but it sure seems like there are scads of massively impractical boats in our yard - I14's, 49ers, A-Cats, Canoes, Moths, H20's, Aussie18's, etc. There is nothing remotely practical about these boats and your wife isn't going to take a shit on one. 

 

... In 10 years Hobie/Nacra/etc. will all have off-the-shelf foilers that will be marketed to 14 year old girls and retirees as the most practical, fun and relaxing sailboat ever built. With speeds into the 40's and cup holders standard. All the sails will have a huge portrait of Doug on them to honor his wisdom (RIP Doug)

 

Foiling cats are going to take over the entire world MF'er!

 

Ok maybe not quite that far, but you get the idea. It's just a matter of time. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

 

BTW: the Tin Can got panned because, like Hotrod's plywood abortion, it was a galactic hunk of shit that wasn't going to last 20 minutes in any real weather. Not because Joe Cal20 couldn't buy one or David Van Dumb couldn't tow it with his Prius. C'mon, you saw that thing.

 

Whew! I'm really lovin' that stream of consciousness rant.

 

Unfortunately, it also ignores the fact that even that list of glorious, impractical (your reference) rides you mention above were obtained by someone who had to practical their way into a closure thought such as: Will my checkbook handle this? Where do I store the MF'er? Can I fix it if it breaks? Am I gonna catch more shit than it's worth at the YC bar on Saturday? Will my old lady want to ride on it (even if she isn't in a shitting mood)... yeah, you get the picture. All these thoughts come directly from the practical function in the brain of even the most out of control fool.

 

The toothpaste is out of the tube, so to speak, but that does not extend the goo line into recreational boating, which is an entirely different paradigm of thought and execution than is any design idiom created primarily for racing machines. I've already said many times that foils have their place in the racing environment and I like that they are included in designs (and not) according to the boat's purpose and the rules in which they operate.

 

Just guessing here, but let's just say that there are something like 15 new monohull models being introduced each year for the performance boating community. How many of them, in the past year, have incorporated that darling of Doug Lord's fervent, foamy, imagination... the DSS foil? Care to venture a guess as to how thoroughly the foiling flood has been accepted in that community? These are boat builders/designers who have slaved over their boards to get the last crumb of performance and living wage profit out of their boats, knowing that the dude in the next shop over is doing the same thing... and they are ignoring a foil setup in a mass demonstration of refusal. How come, if its' so compelling and it's already out there to just glue into their new design? This product has been out for years now and the sailing design world is well aware of it as an element of this supposed, foiling explosion. How come it's being dissed when there is such a hyped, beneficial advantage to the incorporation of the device? The answer: Final boat cost, complexity, licensing fees, marketing effort required, potential maintenance.

 

Recreational sailors are an entirely different sort of animal and they do not want to spend money on stuff that has extremely limited value for their needs, or exceeds their ability to comprehend and extract results from the feature. The Tri-foiler and the Rave suffered from this very reality way back when and the argument still exists today. If the function of foiling were so hot for the general sailing population, you would have seen ten manufacturers right now churning out flying Moths. As it is, the Moth is down to a trickle of its once heady rush of sales and the market is pretty much saturated... and that is an entry level device from an affordability perspective. Nobody asked a Moth buyer to flop a wad of $35+ Large on the table just to find out if he could actually control the thing and go flying somewhere.

 

Do you have any idea as to the relevant sales figures for rice rockets vs more pedestrian commuter models in the motorcycle marketplace? How about the relevant insurance premiums for same? How about theft stats, maintenance realities, or accessories? Therein lies the argument and it applies to each and every snappy commercial product that emanated from a more toned-down version. That reality based on pragmatism is rooted deeply in Marketing and Product Strategy 101. Failure to heed leads to a lumpy experience.

 

By the way... whatever happened to canting keels and their supposed salvation for the recreational monohull world... well, according to Doug, anyway? Dude went off on the technology some years back and he predicted massive, wholesale conversions of every kind of keel equipped boat on the planet until all of them were just wiggling with excitement, just waiting to be sailed by the hungry throngs of recreational sailors. Seen any lately in vast numbers that make the function so obvious that no respectable designer would ever pick up a pencil without first bowing to the guru of all things just right, our omniscient resident, Mr. Lord?

 

Care to make any wild predictions on that heady call?



#52 Doug Lord

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

Back to the original question,

I d suggest that the best way to have someday a beach foiling cat is to start from scratch and put on the paper what are the optimum/ cost effective solutions within a "technological envelop" to achieve the goal.

So far the first foiling beach cat is not a F18 + L Foils, she is a custom build boat designed especially for foiling around F18 hulls shape.

So it could be wise to start by the question:

What would be the optimum cat base for foiling (for 1 crew or for 2 crew)

Cheers

W

 

I think that an Falcon F16 modified with curved trunks and  "J" rudder foils would be a great start.



#53 bhyde

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

Wow Chris, that was a buzzkill.

 

Ok let's review. Here's the original post :

 

Any opinions about the following?

Perhaps you have strong feelings against such a class?

Is it realevant to try to sail off the beach with a foiler? 

Would such a class require more wind than the average sailor has access to?

Would the class be a box rule or will some builder start a factory class?  or change an existing one like say, the carbon 20 nacra?

Will all that carbon and engineering cost so much more than a stock F16 that only wealthy distance racer types that want to win their local race buy one?

 

Where does it say anything about recreational use by John Q Public? Where does it say it has to be a 'beachcat' style boat that implies a certain rugged durability (i.e. H16, Prindle)?

 

You seemed to be making the argument that we won't see mass produced foiling cats anytime in the near future (or ever?).  I don't think anyone other than people with the initials DL would disagree, and the fact that people still buy boats like J/70's certainly supports that idea, but that is not the question.

 

I think answers to the OP's questions are pretty obvious. Yes, we will see a foiling cat class because there is much interest in the idea and several people are currently trying to figure out how to do it. It will most likely be a development class that is localized and small. Yes, you will be able to get one on and off the beach with some careful handling. And yes, they will cost slightly more than a used Hobie 14.



#54 Chris O

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:20 PM

I think that an Falcon F16 modified with curved trunks and  "J" rudder foils would be a great start.

 

You notice here, that Dougie is already back-pedaling as fast as he can get his broke back self out of the issue by first endorsing the F18 Phantom, (until the reported and un-refuted cost figures made it entirely unpalatable) and now he's thumping on the F16 at a smaller, supposedly, less expensive cost figure as a foiling platform. If one follows the obvious logical progression in size and capabilities right down the line, then soon enough, Douglas will be cruising the boneyards for those trusty Hobie 14's and eventually, back to the Moth as his salvation... and he's already so alienated that family of sailors that none of them are going to support his BS line of thinking.

 

Now you know why he was tossing slabs of meat at Michele (ITA 16) to crunch-up his sack and convert his small planing cat into a foiler, even though Michele's very sweet boat looks to be a load of fun just as it is right now.

 

Get those nails out of your pockets, boys! Good Ol' Hobbling Hammerhead Doug is on his way to a composite shop near you to pound and preach the word of the almighty savior of all things boaty. Praise The Heyzoos! Praise the Lord!  ;-)



#55 Chris O

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

Wow Chris, that was a buzzkill.

 

Where does it say anything about recreational use by John Q Public? Where does it say it has to be a 'beachcat' style boat that implies a certain rugged durability (i.e. H16, Prindle)?

 

 

Better question would be... where does it say that these indicated items are to be excluded?

 

Since the term, beach cat, brings with it a very broad and well developed understanding of what the boat does and where it is intended for use, why would you think it doesn't include the well established paradigm realities? Surely, you are old enough, or informed enough, to recognize what drove the beach cat popularity phenomenon that sold what?... close to half a million boats over several decades of prominence? These boats weren't called, Tip-toe across the beach with your delicate foils cats. Hobart Alter's cats were designed to be sailed out through the surf, back in on the waves and make beach landing after landing in good style and with rugged durability. For the next four decades, that was the modus for the breed. Now, you want to make an elitist pussy club out of a proud tradition.

 

Mention the term in any boating circle and you'll see folks forming a very specific mental picture and then hear them speak to it for hours on end. Beers will be popped, laughter will ensue, old friendships rekindled... all because of a specific set of understandings regarding a sailing lifestyle that was pretty much the most popular thing to happen in the world of sailing in our lifetime.

 

Now, if you really want to shift that paradigm, then you've got some mighty big work to do and inflated costs, fiddly apparatus, adjustments to installed understandings and higher maintenance are probably not going to get you there.



#56 MoMP

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:48 AM

hmm.
Ama foils, and a foiling rudder assembly for my Tremolino.
Sounds simple enough.
hmmmmmmmm


Keep me posted and don't get lazy on the wing development....

#57 Doug Lord

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:57 AM

Sort of relevant-bigger than beach cats but interesting nonetheless. From Scuttlebutt Europe:

 

New Circuit Foiling Catamarans
With the Nacra 17 in the Olympic Games for Rio 2016 and the 34rd America's Cup being sailed this year in foiling AC72s, soaring interest in competing on two hulls has prompted a new circuit to be set up for the absolute state of the art in racing catamarans.

Created by cat sailors Laurent Lenne and Andrew Macpherson, the Great Cup makes its debut next month on Lake Traunsee, Austria, and will be sailed in brand new, purpose-built GC32 foiling catamarans.

Built in entirely in carbon fibre by Premier Composites in Dubai, the GC32 has been designed by Martin Fischer, best known for his groundbreaking Capricorn, Hobie Wild Cat and Phantom F18 catamarans and his work on Franck Cammas' Groupama trimarans.

The GC32 features the latest S-foil daggerboards and L-profile rudders. These generate enough vertical lift to elevate the GC32 out of the water when she is sailing at speed, in a similar fashion to the foiling AC72s. But unlike the solid wing used on America's Cup catamarans, the GC32 features a simpler and more conventional rotating wingmast rig, making its launch and retrieval an easier process.

Significantly, the Great Cup is aimed at accomplished amateur sailors looking to go racing aboard the fastest, most advanced boats for their size.

Three GC32 have been constructed and these will have their competitive first outing in Europe at Allianz Traunsee Week on Lake Traunsee, Austria over 8-12 May.

The boats are then scheduled to move on to Lake Geneva in June where they will compete in the Geneve-Rolle-Geneve and the Bol d'Or Mirabaud.

www.greatcup.com



#58 Chris O

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:38 AM

Not even close to relevant... well, unless you think a B2 bomber is the same as a Cessna 172 because they both park at the airport.



#59 bobber

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:00 PM

I'm curious. Is an A Cat a "beachcat"? There are more than a few out there and I've yet to see one dragged onto a beach without a wheeled dolly.



#60 bhyde

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:09 PM

I'm curious. Is an A Cat a "beachcat"? There are more than a few out there and I've yet to see one dragged onto a beach without a wheeled dolly.

 

Not sure if an A-Cat is a beachcat. By Chris' definition, probably not, since most A-Cat guys clearly don't have a "specific set of understandings regarding a sailing lifestyle that was pretty much the most popular thing to happen in the world of sailing in our lifetime." But having just spent $5K refinishing the bottom of my A-Cat, I can tell you in no uncertain terms, that I would never even think about taking the boat in or out of the water without a dolly. That doesn't mean the boat isn't sitting in the sand for launch or retrieval, it just means that I'm not going to drag the boat 100 meters though the dirt, broken glass, plants and rocks just so that I can live the "well established paradigm realities" that all cat owners are required to live. Sorry just poking fun at Chris. Fact is, most everyone uses a dolly on a beach, it's just easier on your back and the boat (and wallet).



#61 Chris O

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:49 PM

Truth is, Hyde, I'm enjoying it. It's a good exchange of ideas and more... I'm not as hard and fast on all this as my postings may seem. I'm just presenting a counter point with substance in the face of a head-long rush to the alternatives. I came up through design school, film school and motorcycle industry journalism. Without objective, critical thinking on the  topic, one tends to get lost in the surrounding, shall we say, foilista version of damp panty Biebermania.

 

I'd enjoy seeing a well designed and functional beach cat on foils that could be brought to market at a cost that allows the same kind of folks to use them as once bought-in to the original beach cat movement. Without a serious breakthrough in material science, though, I'm not at all convinced that it's possible. That simple matter, coupled with other user friendly issues as previously stated, makes it a virtual non-starter for a larger market. Well funded enthusiasts can buy in to just about any kind of boat in the genre, but there's a massive gap in affordability that leaves a huge number of potential sailors out of the game entirely. A smart, disciplined designer in this arena (and I'm not talking DL, here) could really open some access doors and trigger a market for an affordable boat along these lines. The concept that was simply stated by Oxygen Mask some time back, really hit the sweet spot.

 

I believe that there are potential enthusiasts. Trouble is; over the past ten years, or so, production costs have escalated at a pace that has far outstripped the non-escalating incomes of these buyers and what was once a fertile ground for recreational products of this type, has vanished, ever so slowly, but steadily. In the place of $20K beach cats are Kiteboarders, SUP owners, Hobie Wave sailors and Kayakers who have cash left over for all the other things they want to do. The boats that are the topic of this thread are quickly relegating themselves to the heady place where production sports car racing exists... a playground for better-off dudes with significant disposable income and time on their hands to drive the great distances for organized races.

 

Hell, DL, who is the acknowledged queen of slobber on these things, can't even afford to build a couple of scale model prototypes, much less buck-up for a real boat like this. I can, but I'd rather remodel my house and put my son through college.

 

And so it shall remain; A very tiny sliver (foilers) in a tiny sliver (multihulls) of the larger boating world.



#62 bhyde

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:12 PM

I'm completely with you on production cats. New F-18's cost close to $30K fully outfitted with a trailer and dolly and covers and all the other bells and whistles. New A-Cats are even more. I don't see the 20-something crowd dropping that kind of cash for a toy when there are other alternatives (like you said, Kites and SUP). More likely is some small group of 40-ish engineer types (ala I14's, A-Cat, C-Cat) getting together and modifying old Tigers or something similar. But well see. It could be the case that production cost are so high, even for regular beachcats, that the whole industry just slowly fades away and gets replaced with iPhone apps.

 

Now, anyone want to buy an A-Cat?



#63 Catnewbie

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:15 PM

To identify the appropriate cat platform for a candidat foiling cat, a good starting point could be to look at existing box rules and remove the points which are not foiling friendly.

I would suggest taking the A-Cat as a starting point,

1-changing the maximum width to 2.55m or 2.60m in order to meet the maximum street legal width.
(Increased righting moment)
2-Any centerboard configuration is allowed, including L shape introduced in the case from the bottom of the hull

3-Any rudder winglets configuration is allowed, winglets width is not included in the boat max width measurement.
4-Minimum weight should be included why not 85 kg ?
5-A gennaker Code Zero max area 10 sqm is allowed

IMHO a foiling friendly rule box is probably the first step to see a foiling beach cat somedays.

Cheers

W

#64 david r

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

Considering that the foiling moth class exists, there must be some people that have the money to buy one.  So maybe there could be a similar cat class, however popular or unpopular it may be.
An extreme type class with a hefty wind minimum would be cool, but i am the lone ranger in this line of thinking.  People still do slalom racing on boards, and they need wind.  Also a minimum of rules would be good.  Length and lowest range of wind to sail in would be about it.  Slalom racers don't have any rules for the equipment that i know of.  The flying cats would have windward legs though.

5 grand for a bottom job?  Back in my day you could buy a Tornado for $2500.00, 1195 for a H14, and 1695 for a 16.  Carbon (among other things) has really brought up prices.  Even a quiver of race boards and rigs  has quite a high price these days.
As the USA moves toward 3rd world country status, perhaps all this chit chat is just a diversion anyway.

As for the definition of beach cat:  it is sort of about length, but it should be about weather the cat could have sailed a race like the Worrell.

BTW where are the pictures of the foiling 32?  Does that foil package really fly the boat fully clear of the water?



#65 Doug Lord

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:41 PM

The 32 thread is here: http://forums.sailin...01#entry4100659

So far no pictures of the boat fully foiling........



#66 bhyde

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:55 PM

...
5 grand for a bottom job?  Back in my day you could buy a Tornado for $2500.00, 1195 for a H14, and 1695 for a 16.  Carbon (among other things) has really brought up prices.  Even a quiver of race boards and rigs  has quite a high price these days.
...

 

Yeah, Kevlar/Carbon/Form when damaged are kind of a bitch to repair and require a very skilled person to do the work. Not cheap. Speed is expensive in any sport.



#67 Chocko

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:39 AM

If I may, most of the people who i speak with who desire a foiler, will NOT part with the type of dollars that a low number production foiler ( with what i deem as higher wind performance window ) Dictates that they must pay. They all want to fly like the AC boats, which is admirable, but for various reasons, lack the funds necesary to pay for this. Instead they choose to stand on the grass next to their second hand, shoe string shitboxes and talk up pipe dream garbage regurgitated from various far corners of the earth, preaching opinions on latest trends without contributing to the demand for the newest, latest and greatest. if you keep the coins in your pocket, keep the BS there too.

I remember when i bought the Nacra 430 prototype. I had to scratch cash to get over the line, sacrifice other things to get the boat, Showcase it on Youtube as a way of saying "thanks" to Briscat (nacra Australia) for helping me get over the line... The kids loved it, stupid people who didn't understand the concept stood there and slandered my pride & joy, and went back to rig their shitboxes.

Point is, unless you really ware going to back up the guys who stick their families houses and businesses on the line every time they try a new concept, my suggestion is that YOU start a factory and build the "Perfect boat", stand up in the faces of "i own a shitbox, will never spend the money to buy a brand new foiler, but will force my opinion upon you seeming as though you bought something i don't like the look of" people, smile and take their opinions but say nothing because everyone is a potential sale, and see if YOU are successful.....

my Answer to the question is 

Unless they can have a class with a career path attached, probably not, as the peanut gallery won't/can't afford it.

B) 



#68 Chris O

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:28 PM

Orders of Magnitude gratitude, Chocko.



#69 Waynemarlow

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

This is a computer forum you know and actually getting out and sailing said shitbox is not a requirement. ;) ;) ;) ;)



#70 Doug Lord

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

If I may, most of the people who i speak with who desire a foiler, will NOT part with the type of dollars that a low number production foiler ( with what i deem as higher wind performance window ) Dictates that they must pay. They all want to fly like the AC boats, which is admirable, but for various reasons, lack the funds necesary to pay for this. Instead they choose to stand on the grass next to their second hand, shoe string shitboxes and talk up pipe dream garbage regurgitated from various far corners of the earth, preaching opinions on latest trends without contributing to the demand for the newest, latest and greatest. if you keep the coins in your pocket, keep the BS there too.

I remember when i bought the Nacra 430 prototype. I had to scratch cash to get over the line, sacrifice other things to get the boat, Showcase it on Youtube as a way of saying "thanks" to Briscat (nacra Australia) for helping me get over the line... The kids loved it, stupid people who didn't understand the concept stood there and slandered my pride & joy, and went back to rig their shitboxes.

Point is, unless you really ware going to back up the guys who stick their families houses and businesses on the line every time they try a new concept, my suggestion is that YOU start a factory and build the "Perfect boat", stand up in the faces of "i own a shitbox, will never spend the money to buy a brand new foiler, but will force my opinion upon you seeming as though you bought something i don't like the look of" people, smile and take their opinions but say nothing because everyone is a potential sale, and see if YOU are successful.....

my Answer to the question is 

Unless they can have a class with a career path attached, probably not, as the peanut gallery won't/can't afford it.

B)

 

Well, there are at least four well known catamaran companies preparing to build foiling small catamarans. That must tell you something about their assessment of the market. But perhaps they're not as smart(cynical) as you and they're just investing all the time and money for the romance of it? We'll see....



#71 Chris O

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:26 PM

Well, there are at least four well known catamaran companies preparing to build foiling small catamarans. That must tell you something about their assessment of the market. But perhaps they're not as smart(cynical) as you and they're just investing all the time and money for the romance of it? We'll see....

 

And if they follow the business model of the other, foiling production boat on the market, the Moth (and you can pick the company doing that while we leave the Tri-foiler and Rave out of the argument for the time being) then right after the very brief, first heady binge sales spike, they will be desperately offering these things at deep discount pricing, zero interest company financing, free shipping worldwide and basically giving them away just to keep the tooling active long enough to amortize all the costs.  Now, that's what I would call a healthy run in the sailboat market, wouldn't you?

 

Doug, have you ever bothered to do an actual market survey within the available interested parties to substantively know just how many foiler cat buyers there might be in teensy little sliver boat land? I'll bet wads of cash that you wouldn't know where to even start with that. Instead, you have seemingly pushed your finger up your ass, smelled it and that's how you decide if something would actually make it as a production craft. So we owe your expertise to that triple wet, cheesy bean burrito you wolfed-down last night? Is that how it works for you?



#72 GauchoGreg

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:10 PM

It does seem like foiling daggerboardss could be made to work for hi-speed landings, but dagger rudders; i don't know.

How does a j rudder behave in a kickup rudder set-up while part way down?

Originally the question was meant to find out if there will be a small cat class meant to foil as opposed to

the A class which has rules preventing foiling.

Perhaps the C class will be the first foiling cat class, but their activities are mostly secret.  Also 25' is a little bigger than most beachcats.

Maybe the 18 square will make a come back as a foiling class?

The lack of foiling type winds around the most of the biggest sailing areas in N. America will prolly keep intrest low for most.

For those with wind though, maybe the foil ride will make life easier?

See earlier: the Phantom is already foiling! It's relatively simple to make an automatically neutralizing rudder lifting foil-rudder would kick up like a "normal" kick up rudder and when it does foil would neutralize in order to not pull the transom out of the boat.

 

Here is a rough idea of how a foil could work and be clear of the bottom when retracted-foil would be on inboard side of hull :

No steering when up, though, unlike a kicked-up rudder on a beach cat.



#73 david r

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:18 PM

Unless they can have a class with a career path attached, probably not, as the peanut gallery won't/can't afford it.   That sounds about right, although some one may build a few.

 

Well, there are at least four well known catamaran companies preparing to build foiling small catamarans.  You are going to need to give proof of that statement for it to be meaningful.  Just because design groups are working on smaller versions of C cats like NZ did with the SL33 to develope concepts for the 72, doesn't mean anyone is seriously trying to design a marketable product.

 

It turns out the formula 14 class allows lifting foils.  How many foiling 14's are out there, or is the class mostly on paper?



#74 Doug Lord

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:59 PM

Three posted in this thread: Sail Innovation(Flying Phantom), Foiling 20c(guys building flying foils for 20c),Bimare-intention to develop foiling 18. The Paradox (development of a foiling A Cat). Plus two more manufacturers of under 20' cats that intend to produce foiling cats(but don't want publicity now). In larger boats the GC 32, C-Fly(26'-UK), the California 45 and more all the time.



#75 Chris O

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:02 AM

Really, the guys building foils for a 20c are a beach cat production company? Isn't there actually ANOTHER company that goes by the name, NACRA, that builds the whole boat and these dudes, if they actually do go into business doing this, are not that company?

 

Now, about that Flying Phantom as having gone into production... apparently, it is safe to say, that there is a prototype being tested right now, but an announcement as to the actual production of the boat still has not been made. It could be weeks, or years, before they are ready to actually sell them, so I'd say that while things look strong on that issue, it is, by no means, a sure thing that the boat will be produced.


Same is true for Bimare. They're most likely looking at the possibility, but have not announced a full flying catamaran as a boat in their production line. In an interview at the end of February, Petrucci clearly said that he was not going to go full blast on boats in all segments that are out there, as it would lead to not having a good boat in any class. I'm sure they are looking at it, but the costs associated, as well as the full testing regime could be prohibitive at this point. So, no flying beach cat for Bimare, yet.


Clearly, there aren't more all the time. Hell, there aren't even the ones you say are in the bag.

The larger boats mentioned aren't even in the same, beach cat class, so I won't bother with your silly inclusion.



#76 Lummux the Great

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:34 AM

Really, the guys building foils for a 20c are a beach cat production company? Isn't there actually ANOTHER company that goes by the name, NACRA, that builds the whole boat and these dudes, if they actually do go into business doing this, are not that company?

 

Now, about that Flying Phantom as having gone into production... apparently, it is safe to say, that there is a prototype being tested right now, but an announcement as to the actual production of the boat still has not been made. It could be weeks, or years, before they are ready to actually sell them, so I'd say that while things look strong on that issue, it is, by no means, a sure thing that the boat will be produced.


Same is true for Bimare. They're most likely looking at the possibility, but have not announced a full flying catamaran as a boat in their production line. In an interview at the end of February, Petrucci clearly said that he was not going to go full blast on boats in all segments that are out there, as it would lead to not having a good boat in any class. I'm sure they are looking at it, but the costs associated, as well as the full testing regime could be prohibitive at this point. So, no flying beach cat for Bimare, yet.


Clearly, there aren't more all the time. Hell, there aren't even the ones you say are in the bag.

The larger boats mentioned aren't even in the same, beach cat class, so I won't bother with your silly inclusion.

 

 

You are so full of shit I don't know where to start... I didn't go to "design school" and learn how to make pretty pictures on a computer, but I did go to engineering school for composites and have been working R&D in the Aerospace industry for 13 years, and all of your stupid comments on the progress of tech are not even relevent to the discussion of "is there going to ever be a foiling beach cat class?" You have no clue of the crazy shit people are working on right now in terms of making stronger, cheaper composites... like a rotomoldable fiberfilled resin with similar performance to poly/fiberglass but lighter... We are getting pretty close with the understanding of how chotic mixing a fiber filled non newtonian fluid just right can orient the fibers within the resin matrix, the strides in that direction are wicked impressive... it makes Moore's law on chip speed look like 4KT shit box racing an AC 72...

 

Oh, and your stupid comments on engineers building crap vs. amateurs building crap... is complete nonsense.  Jan Gougeon was likely one of the most famous non degreed multihull designers, but his boatshop still had an Instron (do you even know what that is?) and he was keenly aware of the physics and MATH associated with design, unlike most amateurs.. But go ahead, peddle your "designs" and make your modest income.. I have about as much respect for your work as Ian Farrier does...

 

yes, it will be a small market segiment, as small as the foiling moth market, but remember kids, the rich are getting richer as the poor are getting poorer. As the USA turns into a 3d world country the folks at the top will have MORE money to burn on toys.

 

Of course it's possible to build a foiling beachable beach cat. Maybe there isn't a good example of one on the market at the moment, but I have no doubt it's possible. Take your meaningless soapbox to the Ian Farrier thread, at least there your comments will generate an entertaining exchange of ideas... Well, an interesting exchange of what passes for ideas around here...



#77 eric e

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:38 AM

Attached File  f4.jpg   159.53K   50 downloads



#78 punter

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:58 AM

To identify the appropriate cat platform for a candidat foiling cat, a good starting point could be to look at existing box rules and remove the points which are not foiling friendly.

I would suggest taking the A-Cat as a starting point,

1-changing the maximum width to 2.55m or 2.60m in order to meet the maximum street legal width.
(Increased righting moment)
2-Any centerboard configuration is allowed, including L shape introduced in the case from the bottom of the hull

3-Any rudder winglets configuration is allowed, winglets width is not included in the boat max width measurement.
4-Minimum weight should be included why not 85 kg ?
5-A gennaker Code Zero max area 10 sqm is allowed

IMHO a foiling friendly rule box is probably the first step to see a foiling beach cat somedays.

Cheers

W

 

A-Cat width at the moment means that it fits straight into a container without any dis-assembly.  This means you can glue the beams in and keep the platform very stiff.  Increasing the width may make it better performing on the water, but harder to ship to the worlds and keep those events successful, which in turn help create the class growing.



#79 eric e

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:26 AM

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#80 Rapscallion

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:41 AM

attachicon.giff4.jpg

 

YES!

Imagine that crazy on a G32 :wub:  That would be a foiling beachcat your wife could poop on :blink:



#81 Lummux the Great

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:12 AM

Remember the famous winged keel on the Australian AC boat that conquered the moment? That was supposed to set the world on fire, as well. All sorts of folks fell all over themselves trying like hell to get the concept to work on regular boats and it went.... well we all know where it went, right? So much for the grandeur and viability of the AC as a test bed for workable solutions for what ails sailing craft and the diminishing sales volumes so connected.

 

Same is true for all sorts of gimmicky stuff like canting keels for go-fast machines. Race boats?... sure. Rec boats, where the sales volume, that all important seed bed and value is... never saw the moment when it came to fruition. Foils sure look like fun for the onlooker, but they are not passing the acid test of,  just how do you get them into the hands of the average Joe weekend warrior and have them make sense when there's soooo much to learn just to get a passing grade. Becoming proficient... forget it. Affording the uptick on the cash clock... really forget it.

 

Truth is, more is happening that truly makes a difference in areas like sail development, mast technology, ropes, material science and a whole host of other stuff that is nowhere near as sexy, image-wise, as when one perceives themselves doing the Peter Pan routine. All those boring technological advances actually stay around for awhile, filter on down to rec boats, improve the lives and sporting joy for the common sailor and it is they, the boring ones, that have a chance to actually get sailing, as an industry, back on the mainstream recreational list for a larger audience.

 

Foiling is OK for racers, as long as they realize going in that the expenditure is just the flavor of the month that will get them by until the next baddest thing comes tooling down the road to their egos and imaginations. Then, POOOF! away will fly the foils for the newest, coolest thing. Understand... I'm not against foils. What I am against is wholesale slobbering on the topic, as if it is a substitute for lack of imagination and well-thought out innovative design solutions that can work for a much broader audience. Foiling is an automatic, self-limiting device when it comes to the development of a product. Choose to go with foils and you choose to pin yourself into a design corner with specific limitations and applications

 

The process of Design is not a raid on the parts department, where one slams a wad of haphazard ideas together in order to feed one's pre-conceived Jones of the moment. It's about studying and understanding the market in order to produce solutions that, yes, make use of technological concepts and material science, where appropriate, as a part of the overall approach. It is not about how to shove a device onto everything in sight and call it good because one is infatuated with the specific technology and just has to see it employed. The first process has lasting value and timelessness associated and the second approach is a brief fling with obsolescence.

 

Lastly, one doesn't have to be an engineer to be a great designer in the boat world. One does need to understand the discipline in order to keep things moving along, but it's not necessary to be a credentialed scholar in order to create wonderful boats. I'll not list the floating failures that can be totally attributed to engineers, but suffice to say, the bottom is littered with the examples of inspired engineering. Ask the guys in the last Vendee Globe if they are all comfortable with the engineering gurus who designed their boats. One doesn't win if one doesn't finish.

 

 

Dude,

New product development is my profession, and I must be pretty good at it because my income has tripled in the last 5 years. Much of what you say contains some truth, but you are suffering from the same myopia you claim to be against. Sure foils have limits, and using the clever design approach many of those limits can be addressed...

 

Your babble concerning "markets" is annoying. I have an MBA in addition to a grad degree in polymer science, and you are comparing apples to flying monkies on that one. A guy who is looking at buying a new hobie 16 is not likely to buy a foiling beachcat. Foiling is not for the masses... the OP didn't ask if foiling was for the masses, he asked if there would ever be a foiling beach cat class?

 

People spend crazy amounts of cash on A-cats, C-cats, carbon fiber f18s to race them... do those guys drag their boats on the beach? Um, no. The guys that race expensive. under 20 foot cats are not in the demographic you are talking about... the demographic you are talking about would be happy with a used hobie, or if they were dumb, they would be happy building one of your "designs."

 

in 20 years, when there is a well established >20' foiling cat class, all this yap about the wider market will be moot because the wider market will have all but dried up due to the increased concentration of wealth in a very small fraction of the peeps... and the average joe you seem to be so interested in will only buy well used or buy an inexpensive roto molded thingy.

 

If a foiling moth class is viable, a foiling cat class is viable. Most of the active cat racers that I know of that are serious own more than one and in some cases more than 2 catamarans. These folks are not the average joe you are so eager to cater to, they are the folks that would actually buy a foiling cat. But, talking "markets" in broad strokes like you are is stupid... Like boat design, marketing when done right is data driven. When I say data I mean statistics... numbers... based on how many boats Hobie and nacra makes and how active the various cat classes are around the world. But don't let that stop you from beliving that you have your finger on the pulse of sailing in america...



#82 SimonN

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 02:09 AM

If a foiling moth class is viable, a foiling cat class is viable.

 

For somebody who claims to be in new product development and have an MBA, you don't seem to be able to do market analysis very well, or is it you don't understand either foiling Moths or cats? You simply cannot draw the assumption that because foiling Moths are viable, so would foiling cats. You need to understand the market, why the Moth has become so popular and what is so different about cats.

 

The foiling Moth has 2 things going for it. first and foremost, the boats achieve significantly higher speeds by foiling than they did when they were lowriders. In fact, speed have close to doubled. That is a quantum leap and it is one that cannot be experienced any other way. From going about 8 knots upwind, they are now doing 15-16 knots. Downwind, they are now cruising at about 25 knots. The second factor is that the Moth gives a whole new dimension in terms of skills required. For most sailors, its like going back to school. Everything changes. To start with there are the manoeuvres. Foiling gybes and tacks are unlike anything people have done before and take a lot of skill and practice. Next, the tactics become even more interesting. Overall, the difference between a foiling moth and any other monohull is huge and the rewards are considerable. There are significant downsides. the boats are a PITA on shore, having to rig them on their side and carry them into the water on their sides with the foils fitted, swimming out to deeper water and then pulling the boat upright. You do the reverse when you come in. Despite a number of attempts, no monohull foiler has succeeded using systems where the foils can raise and lower. IMO, they are unlikely to, because you will always get a better foil fit from the moth style system and any slop in the face/rudder box makes a huge difference. If the board slides in and out easily, its too lose.

 

When it comes to cats, the fastones, such as A's, are already going really quick, maybe not Moth speeds but they are getting up there. To date, we haven't seen a quantum leap from any "beach style" cat because of foils. The gains are unlikely to be that great. In addition, on a cat like an A, the speed is readily accessible and the skills needed to achieve good speeds are within the grasp of most sailors. Some of the sensation gained in the Moth, going fast and being so high off the water, are natural in cats. So the question is what a foiling cat offers that isn't available elsewhere. Some believe that just foiling is enough, but that is, IMO, a very limited market. If you can gain 90% of what a  foiler gives you without all the hassle, why go for the hassle? What would that hassle be? For starters, you would need to tip your boat over every time you sail to insert the foils and after every sail to remove them. No true racer would ever leave them in for any length of time - it's asking for trouble. On launching, with the foils in (but let's say in the "up" position) all you need is a small mishap and your foils will be nicely chewed. Anybody who claims that it doesn't happen in both single and double handers is bullshitting.

 

The bottom line is that the Moth has succeeded because it gives something that is so different in every aspect than what is available elsewhere. A foiling cat is highly unlikely to do that. What I do see is the continued development of what Doug likes to call "foil assist", using foils that can be fitted from above.



#83 Lummux the Great

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:35 AM

If a foiling moth class is viable, a foiling cat class is viable.

 

For somebody who claims to be in new product development and have an MBA, you don't seem to be able to do market analysis very well, or is it you don't understand either foiling Moths or cats? You simply cannot draw the assumption that because foiling Moths are viable, so would foiling cats. You need to understand the market, why the Moth has become so popular and what is so different about cats.

 

When it comes to cats, the fastones, such as A's, are already going really quick, maybe not Moth speeds but they are getting up there. To date, we haven't seen a quantum leap from any "beach style" cat because of foils. The gains are unlikely to be that great.

 

1.) How many iterations of foiling moths were there before those "gains" were realized?

 

2.) Considering how competitative the A anc C class cats are, don't you think people will chase after those incrimental gains?

 

3.) once those gains are realized, wouldn't you suspect a beach cat class will evolve around that tech?

 

3.) Given the success of the AC 72, Do you believe gains are not only possible, but likely?

 

You don't believe foiling gives an advantage in cat racing? That's ok with me... Maybe you can get a job working for the Artemis design team...

 

Read through the threads when the foiling moth was introduced... before it became accepted... all of the same things were said then...



#84 SimonN

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 06:46 AM

 

If a foiling moth class is viable, a foiling cat class is viable.

 

For somebody who claims to be in new product development and have an MBA, you don't seem to be able to do market analysis very well, or is it you don't understand either foiling Moths or cats? You simply cannot draw the assumption that because foiling Moths are viable, so would foiling cats. You need to understand the market, why the Moth has become so popular and what is so different about cats.

 

When it comes to cats, the fastones, such as A's, are already going really quick, maybe not Moth speeds but they are getting up there. To date, we haven't seen a quantum leap from any "beach style" cat because of foils. The gains are unlikely to be that great.

 

1.) How many iterations of foiling moths were there before those "gains" were realized?

 

2.) Considering how competitative the A anc C class cats are, don't you think people will chase after those incrimental gains?

 

3.) once those gains are realized, wouldn't you suspect a beach cat class will evolve around that tech?

 

3.) Given the success of the AC 72, Do you believe gains are not only possible, but likely?

 

You don't believe foiling gives an advantage in cat racing? That's ok with me... Maybe you can get a job working for the Artemis design team...

 

Read through the threads when the foiling moth was introduced... before it became accepted... all of the same things were said then...

First, you are probably unaware that I was involved with the early days of Moth foiling and used to work for one of the main builders. I know exactly what it took for them to work. From the start, most people were certain that foiling was going to lead to huge gains in speed. That is why the first iterations were banned and why so many tried to stop the format we currently see, well before Rohan started to win. The same cannot be said for cats, althougfh the A's did bring in rules to limit foiling potential because there was a belief that they didn't want all the hassle for what was believed to be a pretty small gain. As many on the tec committee at the time are now the very guys who are designing the AC boats (in particular ETNZ), we have to assume they knew a thing or 2.

 

I think the thing you don't seem to get is there is a big difference between an fairly small incremental increase in speed, and a significant jump. The Moths led to a doubling of speed. The differences seen in cats are far smaller, but any gain in a development class is worth chasing. The question is whether those gains are worthwhile in a class that isn't a development class. For instance, I would pay a fair amount of money for an improvement to my A that gave me, say 2.5% speed improvement, but I wouldn't value that 2.5% at all in a one design class. In a one design, the difference between, say, 12 knots upwind and 12.3 knots isn't noticeable and neither would the differences downwind of 20 knots vs 20,5 knots, but in my A that would turn a boat into a runaway winner.  Even in the AC, while it is clear that you need a foiler to win, or at least downwind you do, the speed differences aren't enough to take the whole experience to a different level. The fact is that, to date, nobody has shown that a full foiler on a beach cat style boat gives big enough gains to make it worthwhile, and it needs big gains for it to be worth using something in a class that is going to be a one design. It is also worth noting that many observers, even some of the trolls on the AC forum, still speculate about how well a well designed non foiler could do, because there is no doubt that the Artemis effort was a dog. The fact is we will now never know, because time constraints closed off that direction of development a long time ago and only a total fool would have continued on such a left field strategy. Another point worth considering is that if the rule interpretation that ETNZ had about foils hadn't gone their way, we would not see foilers, because the size of foils that the others believed they were allowed meant that foilers would have been at a disadvantage. It was an interpretation of the rules that led to the breakthough, not the design itself, as pointed out by the Artemis team - they got the rule interpretation wrong which therefore led to not going for a foiler.

 

By way of example of an idea that has worked well for a development class but hasn't made its way to one designs, winged rudders have now been around for well over 10 years, yet we haven't seen a serious new one design featuring them, even though we know that done right, they do give a slight improvement in performance. the problem is that spending the amount of money needed just doesn't increase the fun in a one design.

 

So the question needs to be whether we will ever see a big enough gain in performance in a cat by adding full on foils to justify the extra cost and hassle it would be in a one design. My personal view, based on sailing these sorts of cats and having actually foiled one, is that the benefits for a one deign simply aren't there and are very unlikely to be. The one thing I am certain of is that you cannot take what has happened with the Moth and use that to justify why we will see a foiling beach cat class.



#85 Thing1

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:52 AM

Just thinking through the implications of Simons comments on the need to load the foils from the bottom in a cat.

 

Just picture a large fleet of catamarans launching, on their sides, wind catching the tramps blowing them all downwind, crews swimming trying to right them, 8-9 metre masts getting tangled up with the first to launch - and thats in 10 kn! Imagine the new a class foiling worlds with 100 boats launching in 20 kn off a few ramps in an onshore breeze ....



#86 david r

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 05:09 PM

Hold on a sec.; we don't know that the boards have to be put in from the bottom in this imaginary cat class.

The shot of the hinged foils looked interesting.  Also i thought leeboards could be a solution when trying to imagine a solution for my cat.  Then there is the question of banana boards in combination with T foil rudders?  They are always showing shots of those guys lifting the nose to the sky.  Can that lift be controled with the right rudders, and a smooth foiler created?



#87 Lummux the Great

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 05:21 PM

 

 

If a foiling moth class is viable, a foiling cat class is viable.

 

For somebody who claims to be in new product development and have an MBA, you don't seem to be able to do market analysis very well, or is it you don't understand either foiling Moths or cats? You simply cannot draw the assumption that because foiling Moths are viable, so would foiling cats. You need to understand the market, why the Moth has become so popular and what is so different about cats.

 

When it comes to cats, the fastones, such as A's, are already going really quick, maybe not Moth speeds but they are getting up there. To date, we haven't seen a quantum leap from any "beach style" cat because of foils. The gains are unlikely to be that great.

 

1.) How many iterations of foiling moths were there before those "gains" were realized?

 

2.) Considering how competitative the A anc C class cats are, don't you think people will chase after those incrimental gains?

 

3.) once those gains are realized, wouldn't you suspect a beach cat class will evolve around that tech?

 

3.) Given the success of the AC 72, Do you believe gains are not only possible, but likely?

 

You don't believe foiling gives an advantage in cat racing? That's ok with me... Maybe you can get a job working for the Artemis design team...

 

Read through the threads when the foiling moth was introduced... before it became accepted... all of the same things were said then...

First, you are probably unaware that I was involved with the early days of Moth foiling and used to work for one of the main builders. I know exactly what it took for them to work. From the start, most people were certain that foiling was going to lead to huge gains in speed. That is why the first iterations were banned and why so many tried to stop the format we currently see, well before Rohan started to win. The same cannot be said for cats, althougfh the A's did bring in rules to limit foiling potential because there was a belief that they didn't want all the hassle for what was believed to be a pretty small gain. As many on the tec committee at the time are now the very guys who are designing the AC boats (in particular ETNZ), we have to assume they knew a thing or 2.

 

I think the thing you don't seem to get is there is a big difference between an fairly small incremental increase in speed, and a significant jump. The Moths led to a doubling of speed. The differences seen in cats are far smaller, but any gain in a development class is worth chasing. The question is whether those gains are worthwhile in a class that isn't a development class. For instance, I would pay a fair amount of money for an improvement to my A that gave me, say 2.5% speed improvement, but I wouldn't value that 2.5% at all in a one design class. In a one design, the difference between, say, 12 knots upwind and 12.3 knots isn't noticeable and neither would the differences downwind of 20 knots vs 20,5 knots, but in my A that would turn a boat into a runaway winner.  Even in the AC, while it is clear that you need a foiler to win, or at least downwind you do, the speed differences aren't enough to take the whole experience to a different level. The fact is that, to date, nobody has shown that a full foiler on a beach cat style boat gives big enough gains to make it worthwhile, and it needs big gains for it to be worth using something in a class that is going to be a one design. It is also worth noting that many observers, even some of the trolls on the AC forum, still speculate about how well a well designed non foiler could do, because there is no doubt that the Artemis effort was a dog. The fact is we will now never know, because time constraints closed off that direction of development a long time ago and only a total fool would have continued on such a left field strategy. Another point worth considering is that if the rule interpretation that ETNZ had about foils hadn't gone their way, we would not see foilers, because the size of foils that the others believed they were allowed meant that foilers would have been at a disadvantage. It was an interpretation of the rules that led to the breakthough, not the design itself, as pointed out by the Artemis team - they got the rule interpretation wrong which therefore led to not going for a foiler.

 

By way of example of an idea that has worked well for a development class but hasn't made its way to one designs, winged rudders have now been around for well over 10 years, yet we haven't seen a serious new one design featuring them, even though we know that done right, they do give a slight improvement in performance. the problem is that spending the amount of money needed just doesn't increase the fun in a one design.

 

So the question needs to be whether we will ever see a big enough gain in performance in a cat by adding full on foils to justify the extra cost and hassle it would be in a one design. My personal view, based on sailing these sorts of cats and having actually foiled one, is that the benefits for a one deign simply aren't there and are very unlikely to be. The one thing I am certain of is that you cannot take what has happened with the Moth and use that to justify why we will see a foiling beach cat class.

Finally, a well informed, thoughtful post on the subject. I agree with just about everything you have said.... My points are:...

 

1.) The difficulties with handling a foiling cat on the beach can be solved

 

2.) The performance upper limit of foiling beach cats hasn't been realized yet. Foils have the potential to add stability in addition to speed. Whether it is in the form of a skimmer or foil assist, I am of the opinion that when the tech is applied correctly, not only will the cat be faster, it has the potential of being more stable.

 

3.) My comparison of foiling cats to foiling moths was based on demographics, not technology. Your polint is valid, but has little to do with what I was trying to say. Take the entire sailing community as a whole; only a small percentage of recreational sailors race, and out of the racers, only a small percentage race multihulls. An even smaller percentage of racers have the talent and the athletic ability to race a foiling moth. Sounds like you were racing moths before they flew; I didn't. Like my cat racing buddies, I only became interested in the moth after they started to fly. The demographic of foiling cat racers would be the same type of people that gravitated to the moth once it became interesting to them ... The same people who already race catamarans in multiple classes and own two or three different cats already... The same folks who started racing a moth after they flew...

 

 

In my opinion, the foiling tech applied to a cat or tri still seems to be in it's infancy; and once an iteration is introduced that allows for greater speed, stability and ease of handling I believe a foiling racing cat class is not only viable, but inevdiable. Now, will it be a "people's foiler?" Probably not. Cost will remain a significant barrier of entry, but it won't prevent the class from forming. It may end up like the Seacart 30 class, or the decision 35 class... small but ardent... but it will happen.  Actually, in a way it already has with the AC72, hasn't it.



#88 eric e

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:49 AM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7WqCLmuwqJA

 

http://www.facebook....145919742107493



#89 Catnewbie

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:14 AM

Thanks Lummux the Great, I agree 100% with your analysis, but your English is far better than mine that is why I will not add any useless redundancies to your crystal clear arguments, instead I would suggest to move to the next step:

What would be the optimum cat base for a foiling beach cat?

IMHO Its a matter of lenght/weight/righting moment/ sail area/ and so on

Cheers Everybody

W

#90 ita 16

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:37 AM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7WqCLmuwqJA

 

http://www.facebook....145919742107493

excellent example

I had the opportunity to use the Dragon, he built my friend , Edoardo Bianchi, is from 2 years in my club, the boat is really fast, she fly all the time, but I do not think you can call it a beach cat , the moth has the same problem, you have to go at high water to insert rudders. Edo has adopted the best system of foil to fly, but to do so he had exaggerate enlarging platform up to 4.30 m. very uncomfortable for a beach cat.



#91 bobber

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 02:14 PM

Thanks Lummux the Great, I agree 100% with your analysis, but your English is far better than mine that is why I will not add any useless redundancies to your crystal clear arguments, instead I would suggest to move to the next step:

What would be the optimum cat base for a foiling beach cat?

IMHO Its a matter of lenght/weight/righting moment/ sail area/ and so on

Cheers Everybody

W

 

Call me nuts, but I think an F14 style boat would be a good development platform. Reduced fabrication costs, faster proto development, garage builders can get involved, and if it works, there might be a market for a 20K foil assist/foil elevated speed machine. I'd certainly be interested. As for boards: insert banana boards from the top and bolt on L segments to the bottom tip of said boards while the boat is on the beach dolly - no need to put the boat on its side. The L section joint would be an engineering challenge and would add a bit of weight and drag, but prototyping and testing costs might actually go down. What the heck, maybe different L segments get used for different conditions. Higher lift L's for moderate wind, lower lift L's for high wind, and maybe no L at all for light wind.



#92 ita 16

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 02:31 PM

Thanks Lummux the Great, I agree 100% with your analysis, but your English is far better than mine that is why I will not add any useless redundancies to your crystal clear arguments, instead I would suggest to move to the next step:

What would be the optimum cat base for a foiling beach cat?

IMHO Its a matter of lenght/weight/righting moment/ sail area/ and so on

Cheers Everybody

W

 

Call me nuts, but I think an F14 style boat would be a good development platform. Reduced fabrication costs, faster proto development, garage builders can get involved, and if it works, there might be a market for a 20K foil assist/foil elevated speed machine. I'd certainly be interested. As for boards: insert banana boards from the top and bolt on L segments to the bottom tip of said boards while the boat is on the beach dolly - no need to put the boat on its side. The L section joint would be an engineering challenge and would add a bit of weight and drag, but prototyping and testing costs might actually go down. What the heck, maybe different L segments get used for different conditions. Higher lift L's for moderate wind, lower lift L's for high wind, and maybe no L at all for light wind.

+1



#93 Doug Lord

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 03:18 PM

Here is an idea of how a cat hul could be designed and tooled to answer all the objections about handling the foil on a foiling cat. Note where my rough sketch says "Not to Scale"!. The basic shape is whats important:

1) to keep the foil as far to windward as possible,

2) to match the interlocking trunk very closely with the hull,

3) to keep the foil exit at a non acute angle for minimum drag.

I've been thinking of a hull, narrower on deck than at the bottom with curved sides and chines at the foil and aft, The curved sides would match the curve of the foil and foil trunk. The foil trunk would be designed to fit in a notch in the hull using some sort of quick release interlocking system. The foil would be able to retract up to the bottom of the boat.

But when your're finished for the day or want to beach the boat, just unlock the trunk and remove both foil and trunk.

Answers all the questions about foil handling, allows a curved foil+ "L" foil(which is critical for altitude control) and allows different foils in the same trunk.

Attached Files



#94 ita 16

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:42 PM

Here is an idea of how a cat hul could be designed and tooled to answer all the objections about handling the foil on a foiling cat. Note where my rough sketch says "Not to Scale"!. The basic shape is whats important:
1) to keep the foil as far to windward as possible,
2) to match the interlocking trunk very closely with the hull,
3) to keep the foil exit at a non acute angle for minimum drag.
I've been thinking of a hull, narrower on deck than at the bottom with curved sides and chines at the foil and aft, The curved sides would match the curve of the foil and foil trunk. The foil trunk would be designed to fit in a notch in the hull using some sort of quick release interlocking system. The foil would be able to retract up to the bottom of the boat.
But when your're finished for the day or want to beach the boat, just unlock the trunk and remove both foil and trunk.
Answers all the questions about foil handling, allows a curved foil+ "L" foil(which is critical for altitude control) and allows different foils in the same trunk.


Wow Doug! This is very similar to what I I wanted to make in Stunt S.9,a very good idea and original,my version is a bit easier,I thought to use it in class A,but maybe now someone copy this.

#95 david r

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:02 PM

Had this idea for application to my 3 meter cat; Since the only hydro foils that i have dealt with are for the wakeboard/kiteboard style, why not just put one of those on each hull and stay with a regular rudder system?  Could install trunks for them.
To set up on the beach have some sawhorses or a couple extra people and lift a hull far enough up to insert the foil from the bottom.

The attached drawing from last Nov. shows the leeboard style idea.  It shows the board against the outside of the hull, but it seems like a good idea to put a divot in the hull for the foil to sit flush.  The top could be pulled with a control line if needed for testing purposes.  The fore and aft adjustment part isn't figured out yet in the drawing.
the left sketch was v.1 with a trunk inside.
The v shape is obviously not popular, but the idea is to show the leeboard part.

the hinge is still looking doable though.  For high wind you wouldn't need such big foils as he has in the photo.

 

Open source is a good idea.
some specific foil shapes would be nice.

Attached Files



#96 Doug Lord

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:15 PM

Here is an idea of how a cat hul could be designed and tooled to answer all the objections about handling the foil on a foiling cat. Note where my rough sketch says "Not to Scale"!. The basic shape is whats important:
1) to keep the foil as far to windward as possible,
2) to match the interlocking trunk very closely with the hull,
3) to keep the foil exit at a non acute angle for minimum drag.
I've been thinking of a hull, narrower on deck than at the bottom with curved sides and chines at the foil and aft, The curved sides would match the curve of the foil and foil trunk. The foil trunk would be designed to fit in a notch in the hull using some sort of quick release interlocking system. The foil would be able to retract up to the bottom of the boat.
But when your're finished for the day or want to beach the boat, just unlock the trunk and remove both foil and trunk.
Answers all the questions about foil handling, allows a curved foil+ "L" foil(which is critical for altitude control) and allows different foils in the same trunk.


Wow Doug! This is very similar to what I I wanted to make in Stunt S.9,a very good idea and original,my version is a bit easier,I thought to use it in class A,but maybe now someone copy this.

 

Michele, not sure how good my idea is. A friend who is a cat builder says that he doesn't think the "L" foils hanging below the hull is a big deal-the guys will just us wheels and put covers on the foils they leave in place.

He also says that having the daggerboard so far to windward has proven problematic in the A class,according to him. While that might be true for a seahugger, with a foiler,in foiling conditions, it won't matter.



#97 Timbo

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:25 AM

I have a 1992 Tornado sitting around un-loved...   Possibly time for some curved blades in a new location..  ??



#98 ClimbnSail

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:08 AM

I was just thinking the same thing Timbo.

#99 SimonN

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:27 AM

A friend who is a cat builder says that he doesn't think the "L" foils hanging below the hull is a big deal-the guys will just us wheels and put covers on the foils they leave in place.

Your friend might not think it is a problem but the A class fleet does. This has all been talked about at events, both before the AC went foiling and since. Form everybody I have spoken to, ranging from world champions to back of the fleet leisure sailors, there has been a consistent feeling that the class doesn't want foils that cannot be removed from above for a number of reasons. First off, it is absolutely impossible to launch and recover your boat every single time, in all sorts of different locations and conditions, without it touching the bottom. I have seen world champions lose a bit of control of their A's, leading to the boat touching. Maybe if you always launch off a sheltered ramp without much wind you can, but otherwise you cannot. Sometimes you are lucky and somebody takes your wheels for you, which makes it easier, but in general, it is simply too difficult. Next, in almost every location I sail, we launch off a sandy beach, or close enough that there is sand everywhere.. You therefore need to be certain that your foils and case have no sand contamination at all, or else you chew them up really fast. You also need to be able to rinse your foils and case after every sail. If you don't take your foils out after every sail, you are going to end up in a real mess. It is impossible to launch and recover from a sandy beach and not get sand everywhere.   That might be fine for a knock about beach fun boat, but for any serious boat that is going to cost serious money, forget it. Even in an environment where there is no sand, anything that ends up in the case will scratch the foils.

 

Even without sand, if you sail on salt water, you need to be able to thoroughly rinse everything so you have no salt in the case or on the foils. Salt is pretty abrasive. If you leave the foils in, it is almost impossible to properly wash the case and foils, so you will get salt abrasion. The bottom line is that you cannot leave foils in on any serious racing cat.

 

I am not saying that this alone is why a foiling beach cat class will not succeed, but it is one of the challenges that needs to be overcome if the foil "solution" is not to be lifted out from above. in fact, I have been discussing with other A Class sailors ways that you could fit T or L foils from above, but while I think some of the ideas have potential, I don't see the A's going along with them. impractical solutions will kill the class far quicker than there is a risk of the A being left behind by other boats and dying.



#100 Thing1

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:14 AM

Simon, The A-cat position seems pretty clear to me. If someone can develop a foil that is within the rules (ie loaded from above) and If it wins regattas and the average to good sailor can manage it then it is likely to be fairly widely adopted. That hasn't happened yet - and its not just a matter of being able to foil - it must be faster over the wide range of conditions we sail in.

 

So returning to the original question - can / would you design a foiling beach cat class.

 

Clearly it's possible to design a small foiling cat. You could:

 

a) Find someone to spend a small fortune designing, testing and manufacturing a one design class, to an uncertain market

B) Get some smart people together to make a box rule that allowed or encouraged foils and let the enthusiasts do the work

c) Find a class that didn't mind its rules being butchered to suit a design ambition (that may or may not work)

d) Do nothing and wait until someone comes up with a practical off the beach foil solution at which point a), B) or c) become feasible.  

 

However, my money is on d)






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