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"Foiled" mini


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#1 Reht

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

What does anyone know about the claim that there's a mini ready for this years transat using the system shown on the fp? Looks like a cool idea, curious if there's any pictures or at least hearsay about what seem to be a cool new innovation...



#2 Doug Lord

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:15 PM

Its using DSS and owned by the guy that runs ISOTOP. DSS foils allow it to be much narrower than a normal mini and still have equal or greater RM. Makes for an interesting(fast) SA/WS ratio.

Recent pictures(not below) show the boat being fitted out. The guy has sat on it for some time but if Jesus Renado is correct she should be racing soon.

Attached Files



#3 Reht

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:51 PM

Do the transat racers have to do their qualifying in the boat they do the race in? If so, then this boat's leaving it a little late...



#4 TheFlash

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

Kinda different than 777.  Will be interesting to see how it works.



#5 Chris O

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:56 PM

Oh, look, Dougie... another DSS foil that exits the hull below the waterline. That's just what you told me they do not do when I suggested that the product would not be useful for cruising and general recreational boats that sit at moorings, in slips, etc. Looks to me, as I told you back then, that the foil trunk and the foil surface are ideal places for sea life to grow, requiring a lot of tedious maintenance to keep clean. You, of course, in your masterful understanding of all things foily, told me that it was not a problem because the foil exits the hull above the waterline and that you expected the technology to become a full tilt boner in the recreational boat marketplace.

 

Care to offer another take, along with an apology?

 

This is what happens when one can't control one's effervescent foaming about a particular topic that has not been fully sorted in the real world.

 

For the record, I hope that this boat design yields great results for the skipper and his sponsors. He might be able to squeeze a few precious miles more from the boat each day than his opponents due to the skinnier hull and over a long run, that could be a serious advantage.



#6 facthunt

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:11 PM

Do the transat racers have to do their qualifying in the boat they do the race in? If so, then this boat's leaving it a little late...

they do



#7 hughw

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:57 AM

Oh, look, Dougie... another DSS foil that exits the hull below the waterline. That's just what you told me they do not do when I suggested that the product would not be useful for cruising and general recreational boats that sit at moorings, in slips, etc. Looks to me, as I told you back then, that the foil trunk and the foil surface are ideal places for sea life to grow, requiring a lot of tedious maintenance to keep clean. You, of course, in your masterful understanding of all things foily, told me that it was not a problem because the foil exits the hull above the waterline and that you expected the technology to become a full tilt boner in the recreational boat marketplace.

 

Care to offer another take, along with an apology?

 

This is what happens when one can't control one's effervescent foaming about a particular topic that has not been fully sorted in the real world.

 

For the record, I hope that this boat design yields great results for the skipper and his sponsors. He might be able to squeeze a few precious miles more from the boat each day than his opponents due to the skinnier hull and over a long run, that could be a serious advantage.

 

Relax Chris - its something we've already figured and note that the 'waterline' separation on Le Mini is not the actual waterline - as normal we run the antifouling further up the hull.

However the growth inside the case did concern us - but its easily dealt with in fact.  The coating on the inside of the case is resistant to fouling anyway, its in the dark so that stops off quite a lot of marine growths, and if you leave the boat afloat for any length of time then simply drop in a chlorine tablet into the wet area and that works a treat.  Board itself can be antifouled as normal.

 

Depending on the boat in question, the foil exits can be just above/below/on the DWL - so no fixed rule there.



#8 steveromagnino

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:01 PM

Hugh have you figured out a way to stop the boats with DSS doing porpoising around the axis of the foil as they go downwind through a sea? (and yes, I know this is a later generation of foil than B!B!B!)

 

When we saw the brace! brace! brace it seemed to be extremely quick in certain directions in flatter water (especially in Phuket)...but  in Pattaya in steep seas, once the foil was becoming airbourne (as will happen with a mini downwind in big seas at a guess) it leapt off waves, then it seemed to suffer from going down the mine every few waves....which made the boat (looking on) slow down a bit and also extremely violent in the way it sailed.  I would imagine a mini is in much bigger seas.  is there a trim tab or something to stop this?  Or is the mini slow enough that it won't be an issue?



#9 hughw

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:19 PM

yup, got that sorted on the overall hull/wing dynamic mix, and in fact we could deal with that on the Brace as well with a tiny rudder foil or something similar.  made those changes for the Q28 and its steady as a rock in comparison to the 25.  36 too has been really well behaved, and has a lot of really shitty offshore miles in Mistrals under its belt too. 

Fine balancing act over all the sailing conditions and its those little things that don't quite work that tell you a lot more than when it does!

Le Mini - well you expect to get those things airborne every now and then!  But that too is effectively the same generation as the Q28 and in relative dynamic terms is actually closer to the 36 than the 25 so should be OK.

be good to find out shortly though:)



#10 TheFlash

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:45 PM

The the DSS negate the advantage of the extended waterline of the scow-hull 777?



#11 r.finn

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:54 PM

When will it sail!?!

#12 Chris O

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:06 PM

Relax Chris - its something we've already figured and note that the 'waterline' separation on Le Mini is not the actual waterline - as normal we run the antifouling further up the hull.

However the growth inside the case did concern us - but its easily dealt with in fact.  The coating on the inside of the case is resistant to fouling anyway, its in the dark so that stops off quite a lot of marine growths, and if you leave the boat afloat for any length of time then simply drop in a chlorine tablet into the wet area and that works a treat.  Board itself can be antifouled as normal.

 

Depending on the boat in question, the foil exits can be just above/below/on the DWL - so no fixed rule there.

 

 

I am pleasantly relaxed, Hugh, but thanks for the suggestion, anyway. What stimulated this set of comments was the fact that your cheerleader was shooting off his mouth about the installation of the board and its exposure to the elements and therefore, resulting clogging issues. The board installed on the Infiniti design shown on the front page does have its board very clearly under the water, boot stripe placement, or not. How often will they have to go at it with the scrubber pad in order to keep it from jamming-up if the boat just sits in the slip?

 

Only a part of the foil trunk is in the dark, Hugh. There's plenty of light in and around the trunk opening for sea life and anti-foul bottoms are not always efficient at preventing growth, depending on anchorage conditions, water temps, bio forms, etc. Heck, the typical retractable centerboard craft, with the board well under the boat in its lowest light position, still get clogged with all the growth and it even grows up into the trunk of those boats into regions which you describe as too dark on your product. If there were some nifty panacea for anti-foul, there wouldn't be some hundred, or more products on the market for trying to prevent it. Some harbors will not allow the use of chlorine tablets, or even certain types of anti-foul coatings, so what do those guys do besides get over the side and spend a few hours scrubbing the trunk in order to keep their foil useable?

 

What you are saying is that the board does represent an additional maintenance issue for owners and that it is primarily meant for racing boats, where routine bottom cleanings and haul-outs are the norm and not for the cruising, or laid-back recreational sailor who go long periods of time between bottom maintenance cycles. Is that correct?



#13 TheFlash

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:12 PM

But Chris - you drysail, no?

 

 

;)



#14 r.finn

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:17 PM

When will it sail!?!

#15 hughw

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

When will it sail!?!

 

Very shortly!  Fitting out final stages and rigging. getting some sails sorted, usual stuff.

 

Chris - we can use any hard antifoul on the boards, and in fact its OK in the trunking as well.  Also, and this works longterm - use some copper powder in the casing internal coating.

For the long term cruiser racer, then we've figured on self scrubbing pads too, so board is always being cleaned by movement.  Its not turned out to be the problem we had envisaged in fact.



#16 BalticBandit

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

well it will be interesting as a Proto Mini.  and I'd be interested to see if in combo with a "scow bow" you can carry enough extra sail area to make it worth doing both, or whether the upwind speed gain of a narrower hull that DSS allows makes that moot.



#17 STYACHT

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:00 PM

Hugh,

 

just for the record - the mini is under the maximum beam, but the foil?  

Given that, did you consider single rudder?  What was chosen and why?

The keel, fixed ballasted as per "Foiled"?

Sail area the same as other protos?

 

I let you keep you secrets when it comes to weights!  



#18 Chris O

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

Chris - we can use any hard antifoul on the boards, and in fact its OK in the trunking as well.  Also, and this works longterm - use some copper powder in the casing internal coating.

For the long term cruiser racer, then we've figured on self scrubbing pads too, so board is always being cleaned by movement.  Its not turned out to be the problem we had envisaged in fact.

 

This is all great, Hugh. Sounds plausible. Are any of the self-scrubbing systems in place and can we see them installed in a few photos?

 

I take it then, that the "It's too dark in there" argument is not on the table anymore...?  ;-)



#19 Chris O

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

Then there's this bit of unpleasantness to consider with regards to copper additives in bottom paint...

 

http://www.boatus.co...uary/copper.asp

 

http://www.epa.gov/r...res/safe-paint/



#20 hughw

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

Hugh,

 

just for the record - the mini is under the maximum beam, but the foil?  

Given that, did you consider single rudder?  What was chosen and why?

The keel, fixed ballasted as per "Foiled"?

Sail area the same as other protos?

 

I let you keep you secrets when it comes to weights!  

1. yes

2.yes

3 yes

4 no :)



#21 clamslapper

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:18 AM

Its using DSS and owned by the guy that runs ISOTOP. DSS foils allow it to be much narrower than a normal mini and still have equal or greater RM. Makes for an interesting(fast) SA/WS ratio.

Recent pictures(not below) show the boat being fitted out. The guy has sat on it for some time but if Jesus Renado is correct she should be racing soon.

 

 

You guys who sail the proto Minis are the coolest.  Every time I read anything about them, I'm like, THAT would be sailing.  I don't think there are any -- proto or regular -- to sail against in my area, but just absolutely love the boats and you guys who drive them are some of the coolest sailors on the planet.



#22 Doug Lord

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:30 AM

I don't sail Protos but I couldn't agree with you more!

 

Its using DSS and owned by the guy that runs ISOTOP. DSS foils allow it to be much narrower than a normal mini and still have equal or greater RM. Makes for an interesting(fast) SA/WS ratio.

Recent pictures(not below) show the boat being fitted out. The guy has sat on it for some time but if Jesus Renado is correct she should be racing soon.

 

 

You guys who sail the proto Minis are the coolest.  Every time I read anything about them, I'm like, THAT would be sailing.  I don't think there are any -- proto or regular -- to sail against in my area, but just absolutely love the boats and you guys who drive them are some of the coolest sailors on the planet.



#23 BalticBandit

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:40 PM

so then Doug get one....



#24 hughw

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:05 AM

sailing this weekend if the weather allows, and a few last systems to get sorted...Attached File  P1020898s.JPG   93.21K   384 downloads



#25 BalticBandit

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:07 AM

Hughw - just a hint, getting a rave by Dougie is actually BAD for your reputation.  His "I don't sail Protos" should be read as "I don't sail" 

 

His sailing is as much sailing as driving an RC dune buggy is "doing Baja Offroad races".



#26 Doug Lord

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:54 PM

Congratulations ,Hugh-this should be very interesting!

sailing this weekend if the weather allows, and a few last systems to get sorted...attachicon.gifP1020898s.JPG



#27 haligonian winterr

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:36 PM

I love the gnav!!! Really looking forward to seeing this thing ride. Are you sailing alone or will you have any tuning partners to sail with?

HW

sailing this weekend if the weather allows, and a few last systems to get sorted... P1020898s.JPG



#28 hughw

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

I love the gnav!!! Really looking forward to seeing this thing ride. Are you sailing alone or will you have any tuning partners to sail with?

HW
 

sailing this weekend if the weather allows, and a few last systems to get sorted... P1020898s.JPG

No lack of tuning partners in La Rochelle!   Weather delay on sialing - later this week should be good though.



#29 Lummux the Great

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:38 PM

I have been waiting to hear about how this boat performs in for a long time.  Looking forward to the reports and pictures



#30 24_Racer

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:44 PM

I'm also looking forward to hearing how she performs!



#31 Doug Lord

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

Here are a couple of more pictures of the Isotop DSS Proto:

Attached Files



#32 BalticBandit

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:50 PM

Doug - Go away.   You don't even sail anything much less minis.   Go crawl back into the RC Trapwing DSS foiler thread you started and stop polluting threads by people actually sailing and doing cool stuff.

 

Hugh - how long are you in LaRochelle for?  we may be heading out to the coast this coming weekend.

Also I'm curious as to why you chose the GNAV.   I think I know many of its benefits, but one of its drawbacks is that you need to have lowers to control the low bend don't you?



#33 r.finn

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:04 PM

I really want to see the upwind sail plan for this boat.  Seems like it could be quite smaller than the standard mini "barge hull" sail plans, and still be fast.  This is totally new territory for minis.  I hope it works.  Please update like a mofo.



#34 nroose

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:42 AM

Very interesting!

 

Does the keel cant?  Looks fixed to my untrained eye.  If not, why not?

 

What is the purpose of the creases half way down the topsides?  I have seen them on a few radical boats, like one of the VO70s, but I have not yet seen them on a boat that does well.  And I never really understood why they would be fast.

 

Thanks for sharing!



#35 BalticBandit

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:47 AM

My understanding of those strakes is twofold - when heeled, they act as hard chines, and when planing flat they cause the displaced water to separate from the hull sooner making for a slightly dryer ride and a bit less drag



#36 hughw

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:33 AM

Hugh - how long are you in LaRochelle for?  we may be heading out to the coast this coming weekend.

Also I'm curious as to why you chose the GNAV.   I think I know many of its benefits, but one of its drawbacks is that you need to have lowers to control the low bend don't you?

 

I'm not down there unfortunately - buried in the tank and testing stuff for the 100:(  Boat is ther though - look out for Dom or Jean.

Gnav?  think about the arrangement and forces as it is here - no real issues that can't be sorted by the tube laminates sked.

 

Hull ledge...I've had that on assorted boats since running that generic hull form in the tank first back in 2004...and HiFi ( Neil Prydes 52 ) has won a lot of races, so too the Q28:))  has some structural advantages as well.  And yes, fixed keel - the boat is all about minimum weight and drag plus simplicity to minimise work load on the crew.



#37 BalticBandit

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:01 AM

Hmmm the structural aspect makes sense - easy to overlook.  Lower crew load work strikes me as the right thing to aim for given that in the last Transat one boat ended up on the beach because the skipper slept through the waypoint alarm. 



#38 Autograph

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:04 PM

Looking forward to see this boat racing.

 

I suspect she will be about as easy to drive as a unicycle, but would love to be proved wrong, and for mini's to become lighter/more refined.

 

Would it be giving too much away to release the mast hight and bulb weight?  Guessing 10ish m and 250?

 

Good luck



#39 ColinG

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:54 AM

Hugh - how long are you in LaRochelle for?  we may be heading out to the coast this coming weekend.

Also I'm curious as to why you chose the GNAV.   I think I know many of its benefits, but one of its drawbacks is that you need to have lowers to control the low bend don't you?

 

I'm not down there unfortunately - buried in the tank and testing stuff for the 100:(  Boat is ther though - look out for Dom or Jean.

Gnav?  think about the arrangement and forces as it is here - no real issues that can't be sorted by the tube laminates sked.

 

Hull ledge...I've had that on assorted boats since running that generic hull form in the tank first back in 2004...and HiFi ( Neil Prydes 52 ) has won a lot of races, so too the Q28:))  has some structural advantages as well.  And yes, fixed keel - the boat is all about minimum weight and drag plus simplicity to minimise work load on the crew.

Hi Hugh,

How does the GNAV deal with reefing?

Colin



#40 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:01 AM

From the DSS site today:    http://www.dynamicst...r-the-dss-mini/

 

DSS Mini completes first day of sea trials. Jean Saucet, skipper of the DSS Mini was all smiles as he completed the first day of sea trials in 10-14 knots of wind and overcast conditions. “The boat is fast and easy, we cannot wait to continue testing".



#41 BalticBandit

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:16 AM

Go away Doug.  we don't need you reposting information about Hugh's boat in Hugh's own thread.



#42 Lummux the Great

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:11 PM

Missed that one Doug, Thanks for Posting the Additional Info.



#43 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:49 PM

Mini DSS Sailing:  ( pictures from Michi)

Attached Files



#44 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:53 PM

Mini DSS sailing-pictures from Michi:

Attached Files



#45 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:56 PM

Mini DSS Sailing: (pictures from Michi)

Attached Files



#46 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:58 PM

One more: (From Michi)

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#47 Rapscallion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:35 PM

Upright and Planing downwind in 10 to 15 knots? Looks pretty good.

 

Is he using the DSS unwind?



#48 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:53 PM

 

Upright and Planing downwind in 10 to 15 knots? Looks pretty good.
 
Is he using the DSS unwind?

================
Unless the foil is sticking out to windward the boat is using the foil upwind. Generally, the gain upwind is a fraction of the gain offwind, but it looks like they had plenty of wind so they probably used it. More details forthcoming. They have to test the boat to know the exact numbers on the foil-in lighter wind in may not pay to use the foil upwind.

#49 BalticBandit

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:02 PM

Doug you have no clue as to what you are talking about.  you have no numbers that you are basing this conclusion on.  Particularly since off the wind the heeling forces are less than upwind, the benefits of the DSS would actually be greater upwind.  In fact that's why the hull can be that much narrower since it doesn't need the width for immersed righting moment.

 

As usual you are basically involving yourself in a subject you know very little about since you have not sailed a real boat in decades.  Lose some weight and get on a real boat. 



#50 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:29 PM

What needs to be understood about DSS is that it is a foil that develops vertical lift. That means the lift increases more or less as the square of speed. A 21 footer is not likely to plane upwind so the lift from the foil is limited to what can be produced in 5-8 knots of boat speed. The numbers are important because you want there to be a net gain from the foil. Off the wind the boat probably gets into the high teens and the foil will be developing loads of lift as a hydrofoil and even as a planing surface. In light air with the foil retracted, the SA/WS ratio is higher than most boats. The foil reduces the displacement of the boat in addition to reducing wetted surface. It's also not all about speed: the foil helps tame the motion of the boat in pitch and roll which allows for a more comfortable fast ride.

#51 BalticBandit

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:49 PM

Yes doug, but drag ALSO goes up as the square of the speed.  The issue isn't planing upwind, but sailpower carrying area for a given wind and sea state.  The more sail you can carry the faster you go.  yet the narrower the immersed profile you have the less drag you have. 

 

Off the wind since all the minis are planing what you get is the benefit of  less work for the solo driver (no need to cant a heavy keel through 120+ degrees before every tack or gybe, no risk of a wind shift or a rogue wave leaving you to work the keel "uphill" from the wrong tack etc.

 

You once again don't understand the issues in play because you are obsessed with foils. 

 

 

Nor does the foil "tame the pitch" of the boat (since you've never sailed one you don't know so you are talking out of your ass on this one).  In fact, as was discussed earlier in the thread, initial experiments EXACERBATED the pitching motion by adding an induced porpoising.  Now it may be that the DSS will reduce pitching on the new hull, but that's not at all clear

 

so once again, you don't know what you really are talking about because you have not sailed a real boat in decades nor have you actually gotten close to anyone who has.  You are basically doing a suckup and frankly in the process turning off a lot of potential folks who are interested simply because your reputation in SA and Boatdesign.net etc.  is so absolutely god-awful.

 

You've shown your enthusiasm, you've now once again demonstrated your ignorance.  Now go away



#52 TheFlash

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:52 PM

Worse yet, he found one of my favorite little email lists and now is polluting that as well.



#53 hughw

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:53 PM

Yes doug, but drag ALSO goes up as the square of the speed.  The issue isn't planing upwind, but sailpower carrying area for a given wind and sea state.  The more sail you can carry the faster you go.  yet the narrower the immersed profile you have the less drag you have. 

 

Off the wind since all the minis are planing what you get is the benefit of  less work for the solo driver (no need to cant a heavy keel through 120+ degrees before every tack or gybe, no risk of a wind shift or a rogue wave leaving you to work the keel "uphill" from the wrong tack etc.

 

You once again don't understand the issues in play because you are obsessed with foils. 

 

 

Nor does the foil "tame the pitch" of the boat (since you've never sailed one you don't know so you are talking out of your ass on this one).  In fact, as was discussed earlier in the thread, initial experiments EXACERBATED the pitching motion by adding an induced porpoising.  Now it may be that the DSS will reduce pitching on the new hull, but that's not at all clear

 

so once again, you don't know what you really are talking about because you have not sailed a real boat in decades nor have you actually gotten close to anyone who has.  You are basically doing a suckup and frankly in the process turning off a lot of potential folks who are interested simply because your reputation in SA and Boatdesign.net etc.  is so absolutely god-awful.

 

You've shown your enthusiasm, you've now once again demonstrated your ignorance.  Now go away

 

Time to step in guys - I've met up with Doug in Fla, had a great afternoon talking over what we're doing with DSS as well as many other foil related issues and he has a very good understanding of what you can and can't do with foil....

 

Pitch instability - this on the 25 was not an issue once the guys understood what were the contributing factors - and quite of bit of that was to do with the kites/pole length/rig moments happenng to coincide with some hull/wing dynamics at a certain speed.

So a very mild tweak to the hull parameters has sorted that and we've seen nothing of that sort of behaviour on the 28 or the 36's.  Never saw iit in the 27 either in a zillion miles of sailing that in all conditions - so you could say that it was a slight backwards step in some areas but an important lessson as we further developed the concept.

 

The wing does dampen out movement in all axes - everyone that come sailing for the first time on any of these boats ( 23/25/27/28/36/40 ) comments on this. It was apparent too from outside the boat as we two-boat tested the 36s in Palma a couple of weeks back.

 

And drag issues...its a drag totality that is the thing here - planing efficency in drag terms is quite poor on base hulls as a way of supporting the displacement, although better than displacement modes.  Foil supported displacement with the correct foil parameters is way more efficient again - see Moths.

So we're a halfway house in effect, but not wanting to support more than say 70-80% of the displacement max so we don't get into the problem of longitudinal trim control.  The automatic dynamic balance of the hull/wing/rig system is the key to it all.



#54 BalticBandit

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:03 PM

Well Hugh, you are one of the first folks to say that Doug has much of an understanding of any actual nautical implementation.  I fully understand that in reaching mode and even running at speed you will get an earlier initiation of planing, but given the sail area that is carried I'm not sure you will see that big an edge - other than perhaps being able to change down sooner and carry slightly less sail area thus reducing working loads and workload on the skipper.

 

As for whether it helps more upwind or downwind - well your hull has much less static righting moment than a standard mini.  And in the process you have a much lower "total drag" shape for upwind.  Given that speeds are lower upwind, a .1 knot benefit is much more significant upwind than off the wind, so it seems to me that your design has the advantage that you don't lose the offwind speeds while improving upwind, thereby giving the skipper more routing options.



#55 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

Thanks, Hugh.....

#56 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:01 AM

Another picture: (from Michi)

Attached Files



#57 gui

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 02:10 AM

Geez, BB,Chill out would you?

What is it that makes you the frikin' SA police! And what makes you think your contribution is more valuable than Doug's?

You sound like the typical arrogant Parisian! Good to see you've adapted quickly to your new home. ;)

G.

ps: Thanks for the pics Doug.

 

Hughw - just a hint, getting a rave by Dougie is actually BAD for your reputation.  His "I don't sail Protos" should be read as "I don't sail" 

 

His sailing is as much sailing as driving an RC dune buggy is "doing Baja Offroad races".



#58 nroose

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:31 AM

Here's a tip, BB, if you say you don't like something someone says, but you don't actually say what you don't like about it, then you are the ass.



#59 Mojounwin

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:35 AM

Chill out BB, if your biggest problem in life is what Doug posts on the internet, then you would have to admit, life is pretty sweet.

 

Cheers Doug, the pics are great. Love your passion.

 

Hugh, glad to hear it is in the water. Will be a big boost for DSS if the mini can show some form against the others.

 

Cheers

Mojo



#60 oioi

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:20 AM

 And yes, fixed keel - the boat is all about minimum weight and drag plus simplicity to minimise work load on the crew.

 

very interesting boat, cant wait to see it line up against the scow (which seb josse has been sailing on...)

 

I am surprised that you have gone for a fixed keel on this boat.  whilst I can imagine the need to reduce complexity, as  a proof of concept in one of the toughest development fleets, I would have thought that giving away such an important performance advantage would have been an issue?  can you generate enough lift with the  dss that it compensate for the lack of additional righting moment that the swing keel gives? or being narrow can you not swing the keel very far to remain within the class rules?



#61 Rapscallion

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:08 PM

Chris - we can use any hard antifoul on the boards, and in fact its OK in the trunking as well.  Also, and this works longterm - use some copper powder in the casing internal coating.

For the long term cruiser racer, then we've figured on self scrubbing pads too, so board is always being cleaned by movement.  Its not turned out to be the problem we had envisaged in fact.

 

This is all great, Hugh. Sounds plausible. Are any of the self-scrubbing systems in place and can we see them installed in a few photos?

 

I take it then, that the "It's too dark in there" argument is not on the table anymore...?  ;-)

 

 

Then there's this bit of unpleasantness to consider with regards to copper additives in bottom paint...

 

http://www.boatus.co...uary/copper.asp

 

http://www.epa.gov/r...res/safe-paint/

Actually, I have had VERY VERY good luck with silicone based bottom treatments/antifoulants. There would be an added benefit in this particular application as well; it would act as a lubricant for the moving parts.  I actually measured the surface tension of water on several hull surface treatments by measuring the contact angle of a drop of water on the treated surface. Out of all of the hull paints I tested, the silicone one had the lowest surface tension. That's my fast bottom secret.... so don't tell anyone. :)

 

And, if the growth in your area is really bad, one can add a bit of zinc borate, or if you can't get a hold of that, Borax to the mix. I have never tried the borax personally, but I know the zinc borate provides an additional "curing agent" to the mix, and boric acid is considered a green "biocide" on it's own.  Although, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a green biocide, the whole notion is a bit of an oxymoron if you ask me. I have spent most of my professional career trying to think of Greener ways to do things from a chemistry perspective, and I'm no closer to understanding the EPA now than when I started... but I digress.



#62 r.finn

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:34 PM

Can we hear some numbers? Upwind speeds and angles. I'm very curious about those.

#63 Lummux the Great

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:31 PM

Can we hear some numbers? Upwind speeds and angles. I'm very curious about those.

 

Me too... but I suspect they will need more shakedown time first.

 

Is there a diminishing returns for the DSS system as the boat heels when going to windward?



#64 ColinG

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:14 AM

Interesting question.  Suspicion is that the boat is still effectively pivoting around the lateral centre of bouyancy, so the effect would be diminished somewhat as the centre of bouyancy moves to leeward (reduced length of arm to COE of foil) but once heeled to the point where the centre of bouyancy is no longer moving, the effect would be constant for any given velocity regardless of further heel because the force would essentially be angular.



#65 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:42 AM

Raps, once immersed, surface tension of a surface has no bearing on boundary flow effects - this has been discussed to death in other threads.  Unless you are changing the sheer characteristics of the water column by introducing aeration, or some other low viscosity liquid, once your surface is smooth enough that boundary layer effects dominate, your surface tension has no bearing.

 

As for foiling and my irritation with Doug - frankly he's polluted so many threads not with his "passion" but with his ignorant fanboyism that I now have an allergy to him as do a lot of very good sailors.  Hugh I 'll put it to you this way.  I'm working on funding a 2015 or 2017 go at the Mini Transat.  And even if I dont do that I'm likely to buy one anyway because its a boat that suits the kind of sailing my wife and I both really like.

 

Doug OTOH hasn't sailed in coming onto 2 decades and won't ever by a boat.  Tell me who you would prefer to have a discussion with.



#66 Chris O

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:19 PM

Actually, I have had VERY VERY good luck with silicone based bottom treatments/antifoulants. There would be an added benefit in this particular application as well; it would act as a lubricant for the moving parts.  I actually measured the surface tension of water on several hull surface treatments by measuring the contact angle of a drop of water on the treated surface. Out of all of the hull paints I tested, the silicone one had the lowest surface tension. That's my fast bottom secret.... so don't tell anyone. :)

 

And, if the growth in your area is really bad, one can add a bit of zinc borate, or if you can't get a hold of that, Borax to the mix. I have never tried the borax personally, but I know the zinc borate provides an additional "curing agent" to the mix, and boric acid is considered a green "biocide" on it's own.  Although, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a green biocide, the whole notion is a bit of an oxymoron if you ask me. I have spent most of my professional career trying to think of Greener ways to do things from a chemistry perspective, and I'm no closer to understanding the EPA now than when I started... but I digress.

 

Has your testing and material applied to salt water environments, or is it specifically fresh water of which you write? If it is salt water, how high is the saline content per test sample and at what temperatures?

 

A few things to consider: http://toxnet.nlm.ni...term @DOCNO 328



#67 gui

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:32 PM

Raps, once immersed, surface tension of a surface has no bearing on boundary flow effects - this has been discussed to death in other threads.  Unless you are changing the sheer characteristics of the water column by introducing aeration, or some other low viscosity liquid, once your surface is smooth enough that boundary layer effects dominate, your surface tension has no bearing.

 

As for foiling and my irritation with Doug - frankly he's polluted so many threads not with his "passion" but with his ignorant fanboyism that I now have an allergy to him as do a lot of very good sailors.  Hugh I 'll put it to you this way.  I'm working on funding a 2015 or 2017 go at the Mini Transat.  And even if I dont do that I'm likely to buy one anyway because its a boat that suits the kind of sailing my wife and I both really like.

 

Doug OTOH hasn't sailed in coming onto 2 decades and won't ever by a boat.  Tell me who you would prefer to have a discussion with.

 

As stated above, just scroll down when you see Doug's posts. Works for most of us, he used to irritate me, but no more! Besides, he tends to post cool pics or provide links to cool foiling shit. Nothing wrong with that.

Mini in France ... oopps, better be nice to you. You rock BB, can I get a ride on your boat?



#68 Rapscallion

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:44 PM

Raps, once immersed, surface tension of a surface has no bearing on boundary flow effects - this has been discussed to death in other threads.  Unless you are changing the sheer characteristics of the water column by introducing aeration, or some other low viscosity liquid, once your surface is smooth enough that boundary layer effects dominate, your surface tension has no bearing.

 

As for foiling and my irritation with Doug - frankly he's polluted so many threads not with his "passion" but with his ignorant fanboyism that I now have an allergy to him as do a lot of very good sailors.  Hugh I 'll put it to you this way.  I'm working on funding a 2015 or 2017 go at the Mini Transat.  And even if I dont do that I'm likely to buy one anyway because its a boat that suits the kind of sailing my wife and I both really like.

 

Doug OTOH hasn't sailed in coming onto 2 decades and won't ever by a boat.  Tell me who you would prefer to have a discussion with.

 

Surface tension was used as a good indicator for the kinetic COF of the surface. This technology is used all of the time in everything from self lubricating bearings, LOW COF cable insulation, Lubricating emulsions for fracking drills... the list goes on and on. But, frankly, it's probably a good thing if you don't believe me, because I wouldn't want everybody using it.. I like being fast.  The key take home message from the post was the existence of an environmentally friendly biocide that also would assist with the lubrication of the moving parts. 



#69 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:45 PM

Well the boat isnt bought yet.  Stretch goal is 2015 TransAt... but I have a deal with my wife that I replenish my retirement account first after this crash before buying a new boat... :-(   So more realistic might be 2017 with a purchase in 2014 or 2015...But double handed qualifiers will have me looking for crew :-)



#70 Rapscallion

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:59 PM

Actually, I have had VERY VERY good luck with silicone based bottom treatments/antifoulants. There would be an added benefit in this particular application as well; it would act as a lubricant for the moving parts.  I actually measured the surface tension of water on several hull surface treatments by measuring the contact angle of a drop of water on the treated surface. Out of all of the hull paints I tested, the silicone one had the lowest surface tension. That's my fast bottom secret.... so don't tell anyone. :)

 

And, if the growth in your area is really bad, one can add a bit of zinc borate, or if you can't get a hold of that, Borax to the mix. I have never tried the borax personally, but I know the zinc borate provides an additional "curing agent" to the mix, and boric acid is considered a green "biocide" on it's own.  Although, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a green biocide, the whole notion is a bit of an oxymoron if you ask me. I have spent most of my professional career trying to think of Greener ways to do things from a chemistry perspective, and I'm no closer to understanding the EPA now than when I started... but I digress.

 

Has your testing and material applied to salt water environments, or is it specifically fresh water of which you write? If it is salt water, how high is the saline content per test sample and at what temperatures?

 

A few things to consider: http://toxnet.nlm.ni...term @DOCNO 328

Good Find.

Both the Borax and zinc borate would under go a chemical reaction with the silicone, making, in essence, sillypuddy. The boric acid in both cases would cross link with the silicone.



#71 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:17 PM

Raps, once immersed, surface tension of a surface ...

 

what the hell is that?

 

Surface tension is a property of a liquid.

 

(sorry for the derail).



#72 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:58 PM


Raps, once immersed, surface tension of a surface ...

 
what the hell is that?
 
Surface tension is a property of a liquid.
 
(sorry for the derail).


pls followup in another fred

#73 BalticBandit

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 02:30 PM

Ok i commented in that thread.  But why did you putt it in "non-sailing" since a discussion of boundary layer effects is very much relevant to sailing



#74 haligonian winterr

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:35 PM

If you're ever on this side of the pond, or coming thisaways, hit me up.

Lookin at a 2018 purchase (after school and such), but definitely want some water time in one in the meantime.

HW

Well the boat isnt bought yet.  Stretch goal is 2015 TransAt... but I have a deal with my wife that I replenish my retirement account first after this crash before buying a new boat... :-(   So more realistic might be 2017 with a purchase in 2014 or 2015...But double handed qualifiers will have me looking for crew :-)



#75 facthunt

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:40 AM

seems to me the issue with these boats and the rule is rm, I don't think this boat has all the bases covered, she looks to be falling over a bit in the sheeted in pics, looks fast down wind which is supposed to be where the race is at.

its great to see some new ideas materialising, it takes serious work and determination to bring your game to an arena like the minitransat, if you can get to the start line,your already a winner.



#76 hughw

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:45 AM

seems to me the issue with these boats and the rule is rm, I don't think this boat has all the bases covered, she looks to be falling over a bit in the sheeted in pics, looks fast down wind which is supposed to be where the race is at.

its great to see some new ideas materialising, it takes serious work and determination to bring your game to an arena like the minitransat, if you can get to the start line,your already a winner.

 

First sail, no water in the tanks, main has been built way bigger than my design so can be trimmed as and when, but the numbers uphill were still respectable in fact.  Now that's a feature of skinny boats in that they can accept a heel angle quite happily without either/and losing balance or picking up heeled drag.  Thats a nice feature for the crew in fact that the boat is way more tolerant of 'excursions'.

 

Very early days - but even from that first sail we're well pleased with what the boat can do.

 

Now the program moves into settling it all down, learnng what the boat likes to do and getting the sails to match - this is not just another MiniT in any repect of the sail wardrobe - different way of going sailing, different angles, we've seen all that with all the other DSS boats.



#77 Rapscallion

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:45 PM

dialing in a water ballast boat is fun! One more tweak...



#78 facthunt

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 11:09 PM

seems to me the issue with these boats and the rule is rm, I don't think this boat has all the bases covered, she looks to be falling over a bit in the sheeted in pics, looks fast down wind which is supposed to be where the race is at.

its great to see some new ideas materialising, it takes serious work and determination to bring your game to an arena like the minitransat, if you can get to the start line,your already a winner.

 

First sail, no water in the tanks, main has been built way bigger than my design so can be trimmed as and when, but the numbers uphill were still respectable in fact.  Now that's a feature of skinny boats in that they can accept a heel angle quite happily without either/and losing balance or picking up heeled drag.  Thats a nice feature for the crew in fact that the boat is way more tolerant of 'excursions'.

 

Very early days - but even from that first sail we're well pleased with what the boat can do.

 

Now the program moves into settling it all down, learnng what the boat likes to do and getting the sails to match - this is not just another MiniT in any repect of the sail wardrobe - different way of going sailing, different angles, we've seen all that with all the other DSS boats.

I helped a young man put a proto together, it was a nz design pretty fat and turned out to be a mid fleet proto.

It did a few shakedown races in aus, against the local sportboat fleet where it was horizoned by boats like the shaw 650.

I couldn't help thinking  what we had created was all wrong. I think if I were to put one together for my self it would be a skinny boat, with some creative water ballast arrangement that gets around the 10deg inclination.



#79 facthunt

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:21 AM

My understanding of those strakes is twofold - when heeled, they act as hard chines, and when planing flat they cause the displaced water to separate from the hull sooner making for a slightly dryer ride and a bit less drag

my understanding is no concaves in class mini, at least that is my recollection of it, it would be interesting to be one of the punters hanging around the dock when this gets measured.



#80 BalticBandit

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 07:33 AM

Interesting point about the concaves,  hadn't thought about it



#81 hughw

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:56 PM

My understanding of those strakes is twofold - when heeled, they act as hard chines, and when planing flat they cause the displaced water to separate from the hull sooner making for a slightly dryer ride and a bit less drag

my understanding is no concaves in class mini, at least that is my recollection of it, it would be interesting to be one of the punters hanging around the dock when this gets measured.

The Lucas mini already has similar and measures OK, and the interntion from the rule is preventing cat type scows.  Also with the wording then this ledge isn't a problem.  If we had to fill them in at the end of the day then wouldn't be end of the world.



#82 Spoonie

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:59 PM

  Tell me who you would prefer to have a discussion with.

Ya know, someone once told me, you can always tell what kind of human someone is, by the way he treats his waitress...

no intention of ever buying a mini, but love where this technology is going and hugh et al... Guts for having a crack. Curious to see if the idea ever sticks (CBTF anyone?)

Keep up the passion doug

#83 BalticBandit

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:36 AM

  Tell me who you would prefer to have a discussion with.

Ya know, someone once told me, you can always tell what kind of human someone is, by the way he treats his waitress...

no intention of ever buying a mini, but love where this technology is going and hugh et al... Guts for having a crack. Curious to see if the idea ever sticks (CBTF anyone?)

Keep up the passion doug

There's a difference between a waitress and the guy on the street corner trying to sell you a half rotten apple he recovered from someone's trash bin as 'a fresh apple'.

 

An open mind is not a mind like a sieve with no ability to differentiate between quality work (Hugh's mini) and fantasy.



#84 Sailbydate

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:17 AM

 

  Tell me who you would prefer to have a discussion with.

Ya know, someone once told me, you can always tell what kind of human someone is, by the way he treats his waitress...

no intention of ever buying a mini, but love where this technology is going and hugh et al... Guts for having a crack. Curious to see if the idea ever sticks (CBTF anyone?)

Keep up the passion doug

There's a difference between a waitress and the guy on the street corner trying to sell you a half rotten apple he recovered from someone's trash bin as 'a fresh apple'.

 

An open mind is not a mind like a sieve with no ability to differentiate between quality work (Hugh's mini) and fantasy.

Give it a break, BB. Your angst with Doug is wearing thin, frankly. I don't agree with some of what Doug contributes on a few AC threads, but I welcome his posts, which do encourage debate. Thanks for the pic posts, Doug.

 

A very interesting Mini concept. Will be great to see how she performs against the quick boats.



#85 facthunt

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

 

My understanding of those strakes is twofold - when heeled, they act as hard chines, and when planing flat they cause the displaced water to separate from the hull sooner making for a slightly dryer ride and a bit less drag

my understanding is no concaves in class mini, at least that is my recollection of it, it would be interesting to be one of the punters hanging around the dock when this gets measured.

The Lucas mini already has similar and measures OK, and the interntion from the rule is preventing cat type scows.  Also with the wording then this ledge isn't a problem.  If we had to fill them in at the end of the day then wouldn't be end of the world.

lets hope you have a smooth run there, keep the reports rolling please.



#86 Steam Flyer

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:34 PM

 

 

Ya know, someone once told me, you can always tell what kind of human someone is, by the way he treats his waitress...

...

Keep up the passion doug

.

There's a difference between a waitress and the guy on the street corner trying to sell you a half rotten apple he recovered from someone's trash bin as 'a fresh apple'.

...

 

Give it a break, BB. Your angst with Doug is wearing thin, frankly. I don't agree with some of what Doug contributes on a few AC threads, but I welcome his posts, which do encourage debate. Thanks for the pic posts, Doug.

 

...

 

BB's "angst against Doug" is a case of somebody who has been patiently helpful over & over & over, only to get slimed in return; and not only that but slimed by a person who cannot distinguish fantasy from reality. Doug Lord describes himself as a high-performance sailor and designer, but he has no credible claim to have sailed a real boat in years, nor ever designed a boat which had any performance advantage over a stock vanilla daysailer, he's been playing with the same models for years and presenting the same 'napkin figures' as concrete proof of his brilliance.

 

Meanwhile everyone who asks realistic questions such as "that's nice, when are you going to build it" or perhaps in my own case "have you raced your model against other sailing models" is given insults. Doug Lord once told Bora Gulari that he knew nothing about foil-born sailing!

 

Doug Lord likes to present himself as an expert and a designer, but he knows little or nothing about foil characteristics and fluid dynamics, nor structures  and materials properties, nor methods of evaluating righting moment, nor any type of design work from the calculation to the drafting. It's obvious that he has not read any of the popular works on yacht design much less studied any serious texts, nor apparently taken any physics classes. He hasn't even bothered to learn how to use SketchUp which has been available FREE for six or eight years. He just makes a lot of noise, patting himself on the back while hurling abuse at others, and posts pictures.

 

Well, everybody needs a hobby.

 

-DSK

 

PS this is exactly my 2nd post in a "Doug Lord thread" ... shouldn't be doing this but here goes



#87 BalticBandit

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:27 PM

Hey Steam, I appreciate the support but as I said, if Hugh can't suss Doug out... well that's a problem for Hugh.

 

I do hope he's got better judgement in boat building and design.  Because it could be a cool development in the Minis.



#88 r.finn

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:01 PM

I do like that this mini has been built. I can't help seeing it as a canting boat, where the rig and whole boat are further to windward in the mini box. Its cool and must be very light. I suspect it's going to be happy running and reaching, but want to know more about upwind performance. That will happen on the water with other minis though. Thanks for the updates so far Hugh. Best of luck.

#89 Steam Flyer

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:54 AM

I do like that this mini has been built. I can't help seeing it as a canting boat, where the rig and whole boat are further to windward in the mini box. Its cool and must be very light. I suspect it's going to be happy running and reaching, but want to know more about upwind performance. That will happen on the water with other minis though. Thanks for the updates so far Hugh. Best of luck.

 

It'd be great if the DSS foil helped it blow past the scow(s).

 

The DSS provides lots of righting moment, so it takes the place of the canting bulb. I think the canter+asymm daggerboards offer high potential upwind performance but then righting moment is king... if you have lots of that you can get lots of horsepower, with lots of horsepower you can go fast, once you're going fast you can pick a direction...

 

FB- Doug



#90 Ganzi

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:57 AM

Looking at those pictures, it is hard not to think of Breteche's designs (1992, I think). Very cute, light, easy to handle, but no match for the power-oriented designs from Finot & al.



#91 facthunt

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 11:40 AM

I remember when skiff moths couldn't get near the scows, then it all turned around, there is a clear trend in the mini, but its not carved in stone.



#92 Lummux the Great

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:56 PM

 

 

 

Ya know, someone once told me, you can always tell what kind of human someone is, by the way he treats his waitress...

...

Keep up the passion doug

.

There's a difference between a waitress and the guy on the street corner trying to sell you a half rotten apple he recovered from someone's trash bin as 'a fresh apple'.

...

 

Give it a break, BB. Your angst with Doug is wearing thin, frankly. I don't agree with some of what Doug contributes on a few AC threads, but I welcome his posts, which do encourage debate. Thanks for the pic posts, Doug.

 

...

 

BB's "angst against Doug" is a case of somebody who has been patiently helpful over & over & over, only to get slimed in return; and not only that but slimed by a person who cannot distinguish fantasy from reality. Doug Lord describes himself as a high-performance sailor and designer, but he has no credible claim to have sailed a real boat in years, nor ever designed a boat which had any performance advantage over a stock vanilla daysailer, he's been playing with the same models for years and presenting the same 'napkin figures' as concrete proof of his brilliance.

 

Meanwhile everyone who asks realistic questions such as "that's nice, when are you going to build it" or perhaps in my own case "have you raced your model against other sailing models" is given insults. Doug Lord once told Bora Gulari that he knew nothing about foil-born sailing!

 

Doug Lord likes to present himself as an expert and a designer, but he knows little or nothing about foil characteristics and fluid dynamics, nor structures  and materials properties, nor methods of evaluating righting moment, nor any type of design work from the calculation to the drafting. It's obvious that he has not read any of the popular works on yacht design much less studied any serious texts, nor apparently taken any physics classes. He hasn't even bothered to learn how to use SketchUp which has been available FREE for six or eight years. He just makes a lot of noise, patting himself on the back while hurling abuse at others, and posts pictures.

 

Well, everybody needs a hobby.

 

-DSK

 

PS this is exactly my 2nd post in a "Doug Lord thread" ... shouldn't be doing this but here goes

Oh boy... You don't like Doug... we get it already... This has nothing to do with Hugh, You are taking away from his work by turning this thread into needless feud. You have said your peace, please drop it now.



#93 BalticBandit

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:27 PM

Doug has a long habit of taking the comments by someone like Hugh as justification that somehow he has insight.  Julian Bethwaite once said something along the lines of "that's interesting - might be worth looking into it".... and for the subsequent 7+ years  Doug has been claiming that "one of the world's foremost dinghy designers has validated my ideas".

 

Doug pollutes every thread he ends up in.  And I for one like the mini threads.  Hugh made the choice to give Doug oxygen.  So are you.  Please stop



#94 Autograph

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:28 PM

BB, you are now starting to bore me.

 

Boat looks great, can't wait for footage and results, good luck.



#95 LeoV

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:33 PM

For DL, you have the ignore button, he once chased me (business) for patent infringement, including lawyers ...

 

I have seen smaller minis a lot, but never with DSS, I like the experimentation going on.

If you never try, you never know. Ce qu'il fallait démontrer.

Anything is better then Scow bows :)



#96 Trickypig

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:33 PM

HughW,

 

great thread and great project in the true spirit of Mini Transats. 

 

Good luck with it!



#97 Rapscallion

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:02 PM

How much water ballast does the boat use?



#98 Doug Lord

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:21 PM

Another great couple of pictures: (click)

Attached Files



#99 Lummux the Great

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:22 PM

Doug has a long habit of taking the comments by someone like Hugh as justification that somehow he has insight.  Julian Bethwaite once said something along the lines of "that's interesting - might be worth looking into it".... and for the subsequent 7+ years  Doug has been claiming that "one of the world's foremost dinghy designers has validated my ideas".

 

Doug pollutes every thread he ends up in.  And I for one like the mini threads.  Hugh made the choice to give Doug oxygen.  So are you.  Please stop

Again,

nothing to do with Hugh's work, and just takes away from the opportunity for the rest of us who are interested in what he is doing because it may affect how much he decides to post here.



#100 haligonian winterr

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 12:40 AM

Looks like a pretty roachy jib. Any issues with taking it through in the light?

HW




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