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Rubber bands on spinnakers illegal under rule 55


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#1 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:43 AM

That is what the head of US Sailing Rules committee said yesterday.  I know some people use this instead of a spinnaker sock or a free launch.  Have they stopped because of the new rule?  What is common practice?



#2 mustang__1

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:44 AM

i dont think i have ever used rubber bands anyway, nor have i heard of anyone using them in recent times. Now, yarn, that is a different story. 



#3 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:49 AM

I should have said yarn would be illegal under rule 55 as well but I considered that obvious.  I have been using yarn to launch a free flying drifter so I guess I have to figure out another way.  I have this blue yarn that has just the right goldilocks strength... 

 

I just wondered if the racing community has considered this implication of the new rule.

 

Allen



#4 Monster Mash

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:52 AM

i dont think i have ever used rubber bands anyway, nor have i heard of anyone using them in recent times. Now, yarn, that is a different story. 

I stopped using rubber bands when someone explained to me that they look like worms to fishes.



#5 sam_crocker

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:52 AM

Rule 55 reads:

 

A competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water. 

 

So it would seem we're gonna have to figure out a new way.  Have they figured considered the implications, I don't know but probably they are trying to get people to change their ways.



#6 mustang__1

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:54 AM

my bad - had definitely mis-remembered the rule and its implications. it has not affected any racing that i have seen. all the boats that routinely yarn, that i have seen, are continuing to yarn.  the intention of the rule is certainly obvious, but the implications could certainly be concerning... 



#7 Left Hook

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:59 AM

People still use rubber bands? I thought they were banned (heheh) a while ago and that was why we couldn't use 5 gallon drums with bands stretched over them to pack kites any more. 

 

Now Rule 55 is just begging to be used to throw someone out of a race for throwing a cigarette butt overboard. 



#8 Grinder

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:04 AM

Interesting.
100% wool yarn. Is it biodegradable, therefor legal?

#9 Left Hook

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:05 AM

"Trash" is ambiguous and undefined. Could be construed any number of ways. 



#10 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:05 AM

Apparently rule 55 was put in because local beaches were covered by plastic water bottles after a regatta.  Hard to believe.  The rules seminar I attended yesterday was 4 hours long and covered all the rules pretty much.  He said he had given the seminar all over the country and I was the first one to bring up the issue but that yes it would be illegal.  Clearly not the reason the rule was put in there but imho, it is not a nice thing for the fish to toss yean (or rubber bands) in the water.  And a rule is a rule so what are people going to do?

 

Allen



#11 j44spicesm

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:08 AM

also if your more then 25 miles offshore its legal to dump that type of stuff overboard so would that over rule the rule in a distance race?



#12 jim lee

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:35 AM

Rule 55 reads:

A competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water. 

 

Which boats does this cover?

 

 

-jim lee



#13 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:45 AM

Rule 55 reads:

A competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water. 

 

Which boats does this cover?

 

 

-jim lee

 

"However, rule 55 applies at all times when boats are on the water."  Which I guess means it applies to all boats covered by the RRS racing or not.  I do not see any exception for boats racing far off shore.  
 
One thing he stressed in the seminar was that you should not try and figure out what the intent of the rule was.  That was something that went out of style a few decades ago. Now they interpret the exact wording of the rules.  If it says something they did not intend, they need to change it.  Until they do, it is the rule.  I am sure it has implications beyond what they intended but that doesn't matter.


#14 Boo-Yah

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:46 AM

Definition of trash
noun

 

  •     discarded matter; refuse

 

 

 

Rule 55 reads:

 

A competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water. 

 

So it would seem we're gonna have to figure out a new way.  Have they figured considered the implications, I don't know but probably they are trying to get people to change their ways.



#15 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:55 AM

Now Rule 55 is just begging to be used to throw someone out of a race for throwing a cigarette butt overboard.

Then how would you tell that an Italian yacht is about to tack?

#16 Bill's Sock Puppet

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:15 AM

"Trash" is ambiguous and undefined. Could be construed any number of ways. 

 

For those that don't know, "Trash" is the same as Garbage.  

 

The idea of not throwing garbage into the water is not new.  That the sailing community disregards such a simple idea to the extent that Rule 55 needed to be written is embarrassing to the sport.

 

Perhaps also you don't realize the following laws apply to all crews of all vessels of more than 7.9 meters (26 feet) LOA:

 

• International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships (MARPOL), Annex V - Regulations for the Prevention of Pollution by Garbage from Ships.

• Title 33, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 151.

• Title 33, United States Code, Section 1901, et. seq.

 

Basically:

 

(1) The discharge of plastic or garbage mixed with plastic into any waters is prohibited.

(2) The discharge of all garbage is prohibited in the navigable waters of the United States and, in all other waters, within three nautical miles of the nearest land.

(3) The discharge of dunnage, lining, and packing materials that float is prohibited within 25 nautical miles of the nearest land.

(4) Other unground garbage may be discharged beyond 12 nautical miles from the nearest land.

(5) Other garbage ground to less than one inch may be discharged beyond three nautical miles of the nearest land.

(6) A person who violates the above requirements is liable for a civil penalty for each violation, and the criminal penalties of a class D felony. 

(7) Regional, State, and local restrictions on garbage discharges also may apply.

 

 

From CG-CVC Policy Letter 13-01: current USCG enforcement options remain in place for willful and egregious violators or repeat offenders.



#17 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:32 AM

So is trash talk banned now as well? That will decimate the fleet at my club.

#18 Boo-Yah

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:06 AM

BMR_RORC6001-768x768.jpg



#19 Heavy Metal

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:39 AM

Get grandma to pull out her spinning wheel, and start spinning candy floss (fairy floss) into thread.

 

Biodegradable and delicious



#20 TheFlash

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:51 AM

still trash



#21 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:00 AM

There is no other way to read the rule imho.  What is commonly being done now violates rule 55. I can't see how they can re-write the rule to say it is OK to put yarn or rubber bands in the water.  I can't see how they can remove the rule.  All that has to happen is for someone to protest a boat and win the protest and nobody will be able to do what has been done for 100 years.  You can't go back.

 

I assume someone will make a launch only spinnaker sock or a variation that comes back on deck and doesn't put anything in the water that will solve the problem.

 

Allen



#22 Heavy Metal

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:02 AM

still trash

 

Then so is fish bait, and im sure that aint illegal



#23 unShirley

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:03 AM

So if the winning skipper is a low-class ass-swipe and his crew throws him in the water is the boat immediately DSQed? 



#24 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:04 AM

still trash

 

Then so is fish bait, and im sure that aint illegal

Do you fish while racing?



#25 Left Hook

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:11 AM

"Trash" is ambiguous and undefined. Could be construed any number of ways. 

 

For those that don't know, "Trash" is the same as Garbage.  

 

The idea of not throwing garbage into the water is not new.  That the sailing community disregards such a simple idea to the extent that Rule 55 needed to be written is embarrassing to the sport.

 

Perhaps also you don't realize the following laws apply to all crews of all vessels of more than 7.9 meters (26 feet) LOA:

 

• International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships (MARPOL), Annex V - Regulations for the Prevention of Pollution by Garbage from Ships.

• Title 33, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 151.

• Title 33, United States Code, Section 1901, et. seq.

 

Basically:

 

(1) The discharge of plastic or garbage mixed with plastic into any waters is prohibited.

(2) The discharge of all garbage is prohibited in the navigable waters of the United States and, in all other waters, within three nautical miles of the nearest land.

(3) The discharge of dunnage, lining, and packing materials that float is prohibited within 25 nautical miles of the nearest land.

(4) Other unground garbage may be discharged beyond 12 nautical miles from the nearest land.

(5) Other garbage ground to less than one inch may be discharged beyond three nautical miles of the nearest land.

(6) A person who violates the above requirements is liable for a civil penalty for each violation, and the criminal penalties of a class D felony. 

(7) Regional, State, and local restrictions on garbage discharges also may apply.

 

 

From CG-CVC Policy Letter 13-01: current USCG enforcement options remain in place for willful and egregious violators or repeat offenders.

True but it's easier to be protested out of a race for breaking the RRS than USCG regs (on trash at least).



#26 Somebody Else

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:52 AM

still trash

 

If you can pick it up and present it to me, I'll buy your argument.



#27 Somebody Else

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:53 AM

 

still trash

 

Then so is fish bait, and im sure that aint illegal

Do you fish while racing?

 

Sometimes.

 

On a long race a little fresh food can provide a huge boost to crew spirits.



#28 auscat

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:07 AM

So if you shred a kite you have to go back for the bits or would that be regarded as unintentional?



#29 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:13 AM

So if you shred a kite you have to go back for the bits or would that be regarded as unintentional?

Depends on the loft that made it.

#30 dogwatch

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:43 AM

Apparently rule 55 was put in because local beaches were covered by plastic water bottles after a regatta.  Hard to believe.

 

Not that hard. I ran a rescue boat for a dinghy regatta where half the boats were capsizing at the gybe mark and after the finish I picked up at least a couple of dozen water bottles near the mark.



#31 Heavy Metal

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:18 AM

 

still trash

 

Then so is fish bait, and im sure that aint illegal

Do you fish while racing?

That depends on who is asking



#32 Presuming Ed

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:35 AM

I assume someone will make a launch only spinnaker sock or a variation that comes back on deck and doesn't put anything in the water that will solve the problem.

 

I have a vague memory of seeing reports of Volvo boats using a bursting zip sock, with unequal length zips - like sail bags. Zip the kite into the sock, hoist (remembering to tie the sock to the boat), run the zipper past the short ended zip  so it can open and sheet on. Zip bursts, the kite's up and the sock gets retrieved. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam. 



#33 dogwatch

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:40 AM

I have a vague memory

 

Too many Camberwell Carrots?



#34 mh111

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:36 AM

not quite the same thing, but almost :

 

how close are we to a rule 69 protest when somebody takes a piss over the stern ? ('obscene' behaviour, bringing sport into disrepute etc etc)

 

time to look for a new sport I think...

 

cheers,



#35 Heavy Woman

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:47 AM

I think that the RYA has issued some advice on this that basically says that wool (as well as bands) is defined as trash, but that amendments could be made to sailing instructions. There was a lot of chat about this in the UK pre the Easter Challenge Regatta in the Solent as a number of bigger boats are pretty reliant on wool to get clean hoists. I'll see if I can find the advise note.



#36 Quagers

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:48 AM

This is not what I heard as recently as a month ago. 

 

I think that the RYA has issued some advice on this that basically says that wool (as well as bands) is defined as trash, but that amendments could be made to sailing instructions. There was a lot of chat about this in the UK pre the Easter Challenge Regatta in the Solent as a number of bigger boats are pretty reliant on wool to get clean hoists. I'll see if I can find the advise note.

 

While clubs can technically alter R55 in the SI's the RYA  have taken legal advice other whether writing into the SI's to allow biodegradable material or some such so that Spins could still be wooled would be ok. Apparently that would leave clubs liable to all sorts of things so they are advising clubs against it.

 

Apparently R55 popped into the new rules as a well intentioned statement but without much consultation or thought as to the full consequences. Obviously chucking bin bags full of plastic over the side is completely wrong but 5 or 6 small bits of wool seems a bit extreme and the rule as written prevents a very common and sensible practice.

 

Having said that everyone still seems to be doing it but that may be because no one has cottoned on yet. We are just one protest away though from a lot of bad blood. I am certainly not going to be the one to protest a boat over wooling their kite.



#37 Presuming Ed

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

There's this, from February. http://www.rya.org.u...sal - 02 13.pdf

 

RYA GUIDANCE
ENVIRONMENTAL RESPONSIBILITY AND TRASH DISPOSAL
 
Introduction
The Basic Principle, Environmental Responsibility, states that participants are encouraged to minimise any adverse environmental impact of the sport of sailing. Fortunately, sailing has inherently fewer environmental impacts than many other sports, and the word 'minimise' recognises that few human activities are without environmental consequences. ‘Environmental impact’ is a wider issue than not polluting the water. 'Participants' are a wider group than just competitors.
This Basic Principle is not a rule, but it should be taken into account from the outset of any activity related to sailing - for instance, in the design, location and operation of facilities ashore. Environmental Responsibility is a core principle of the RYA, which is the joint owner of The Green Blue Project which provides much valuable information and guidance – see www.thegreenblue.org.uk.
 
Rule 55, Trash Disposal, states that a competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water. So this creates an enforceable rule out of one aspect of environmental responsibility. This rule applies at all times when boats are on the water. In addition, competitors should comply with all international, national, regional and local requirements for the prevention of marine pollution. 
 
There is no definition of ’trash’ in the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS). It is a word to be 'used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use' (see the Introduction to the RRS; Terminology.) One dictionary definition of trash is 'unwanted matter which has been discarded'. It is synonymous with 'rubbish' and ‘garbage’.
 
Note should be taken of the ISAF Q&A 2013-004 (N 001), published on 18th February 2013, which states:
 
Question:
Is human excremental matter considered to be trash for the purpose of RRS 55?
 
Answer:
No, human excremental matter is sewage and not trash. Competitors should however note that there may be other laws and regulations that apply. Annex V of the MARPOL Convention, to which the UK is a signatory, prohibits the disposal of garbage from ships at sea. Garbage is defined under MARPOL as ‘all kinds of victual, domestic and operational waste generated during the normal operation of the ship ‘ with the term ‘ship’ being defined as ‘a vessel of any type whatsoever operating in the marine environment’. It would therefore not be appropriate for notices of race or sailing instructions to permit the disposal of any garbage at sea that would be in breach of MARPOL. There are a number of exceptions to Annex V of MARPOL, the most notable of which relates to securing the safety of the ship and those on board, or saving a life.
 
The objective should be prevention rather than penalization. Organizing authorities should use draft sailing instruction L24 to encourage and enable competitors that are likely to be afloat in small boats for lengthy periods to dispose of trash onto support or official vessels. 
 
The environmental impact of any particular type of discarded matter will vary. A glass bottle has a near-infinite life in water, whereas the remains of a sandwich will disperse and degrade relatively rapidly. It is clear that there can be a very wide range of possible breaches of rule 55. The RYA therefore recommends that, in the sailing instructions, this rule is made subject to discretionary penalties (DPI) from the protest committee.
 
Draft Sailing Instructions
The following are recommended:
xx. TRASH DISPOSAL
[Trash may be placed aboard support or official boats.]
[The penalty for breaking rule 55, Trash Disposal, is at the discretion of the protest committee (DPI) and may be less than disqualification.]


#38 Heavy Woman

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:58 AM

Thats the one - though I think there has been some more specific guidance issued to umpires or something - will see if I can find out



#39 Quagers

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:06 AM

Yea that is what I got when I emailed the rules advice email address. It was pretty unhelpful on this issue so I talked to Peter Johnson directly who explained the issues to me. Not seen anything more written down though.

#40 fastyacht

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:42 PM

wool yarn isn't trash. It is a consumable.

If they ban this, then they also have to ban:

spitting

pissing overboard

shitting and putting it through an MSD and overboard per MARPOL

running any internal combustion engine as that produces trash too

 

Between this, and the new requirement that commercial vessels capture all rain runoff, I think we have met the end of any reasonable use of the sea.



#41 Left Hook

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:49 PM

I assume someone will make a launch only spinnaker sock or a variation that comes back on deck and doesn't put anything in the water that will solve the problem.

 

I have a vague memory of seeing reports of Volvo boats using a bursting zip sock, with unequal length zips - like sail bags. Zip the kite into the sock, hoist (remembering to tie the sock to the boat), run the zipper past the short ended zip  so it can open and sheet on. Zip bursts, the kite's up and the sock gets retrieved. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam. 

Bursting zip socks aren't that rare and they're pretty easy to use (on the hoist side of things) to get the kite up cleanly. Packing a big kite back into the sausage tube is another adventure entirely :blink:



#42 Deed

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:51 PM

That is what the head of US Sailing Rules committee said yesterday.  I know some people use this instead of a spinnaker sock or a free launch.  Have they stopped because of the new rule?  What is common practice?

 

Stored energy. :-)



#43 walterbshaffer

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:18 PM

i dont think i have ever used rubber bands anyway, nor have i heard of anyone using them in recent times. Now, yarn, that is a different story. 

I stopped using rubber bands when someone explained to me that they look like worms to fishes.

Good for you, thank you.



#44 dogwatch

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

f they ban this, then they also have to ban:

...

pissing overboard

shitting and putting it through an MSD and overboard per MARPOL

....

 

 

Incorrect. Earlier in this thread:

 

Question:
Is human excremental matter considered to be trash for the purpose of RRS 55?
 
Answer:
No, human excremental matter is sewage and not trash.


#45 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

Easy answer...

 

Write into the SI words to the effect ..... "protests regarding infringements of RRS 55 may only be lodged by the Race Committee"   .... or something like that.

 

 

or.......

 

Breaches of RRS 55 will not be grounds for protest by a boat. This changes RRS 60.1(a).

Penalties for A breach OF RRS 55 may be less than disqualification if the Protest Committee so decides.

 



#46 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:27 PM

I'm totally protesting the first time I see someone throw the remnants of their salami grindah overboard



#47 mustang__1

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:28 PM

why not add an exceptions clause for obvious things like food or wool-yarn for kites? 



#48 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

why not add an exceptions clause for obvious things like food or wool-yarn for kites? 

how do we really know its wool and not acrylic?  



#49 Bruce T. Shark

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:31 PM

Based on what i was taught during my rules class (the former US Sailing Rules Chairman) is that in a European regatta a US competitor witnessed paper bags, empty water bottles, plastic food bags assorted wrappers (i.e. TRASH), being thrown overboard, rather than being saved for proper disposal on the beach.

 

If you think it this applies to you with rubber bands it does, if you think your competitors would hold you in lower regard, then it applies to you, if you have to ask yourself, if i throw this over can i be protested, dont.

 

We now have our smokers field stripping their cigarette butts and i have an ashtray for them if needed.

 

Nothing goes intentionally overboard on my boat.

 

I know my first time at sea i was shocked when i witnessed garbage bags being thrown overboard on a merchant ship, then realized we were not going to keep it with 800 people on the ship, Navy did to...though the Navy is now saving all plastic for shore disposal.

 

 

There is no other way to read the rule imho.  What is commonly being done now violates rule 55. I can't see how they can re-write the rule to say it is OK to put yarn or rubber bands in the water.  I can't see how they can remove the rule.  All that has to happen is for someone to protest a boat and win the protest and nobody will be able to do what has been done for 100 years.  You can't go back.

 

I assume someone will make a launch only spinnaker sock or a variation that comes back on deck and doesn't put anything in the water that will solve the problem.

 

Allen



#50 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

why not add an exceptions clause for obvious things like food or wool-yarn for kites? 

Because of laws like this one for Wisconsin, which is probably typical.  "It is illegal to dump refuse, garbage, or plastics into any state or federally controlled waters." The Sailing Instructions are not going to say it is OK to do something that is illegal under state or federal laws.



#51 PDG

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:34 PM

I think this is why the term "trash" might need some qualification. I throw the tomatoes from my sammich over the side all the time, and I refuse (no pun intended) to believe this is what rule 55 is talking about. Same with wool or cotton yarn used in banding kites? I dunno, but it should be addressed.  

 

I'm totally protesting the first time I see someone throw the remnants of their salami grindah overboard



#52 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:37 PM

I think this is why the term "trash" might need some qualification. I throw the tomatoes from my sammich over the side all the time, and I refuse (no pun intended) to believe this is what rule 55 is talking about. Same with wool or cotton yarn used in banding kites? I dunno, but it should be addressed.  

 

I'm totally protesting the first time I see someone throw the remnants of their salami grindah overboard

"trash" must be taken in its ordinary meaning, which includes your tomatoes.  Plus the rules seminar was very clear that you cannot consider what the rule was intended to say, only what it says.  He said that was not always the case but it is now.



#53 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

tomatoes are not trash, they are compostable organic materials



#54 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:49 PM

tomatoes are not trash, they are compostable organic materials

One could certainly argue that trash is distinct from garbage and that a tomato slice is garbage.   I give you that.  But yarn is trash compostable or not.  And broken rubber bands are unambiguously trash.  So the tomato may or may not violate rule 55 although it probably still violate local laws.  In practice it is probably a matter of degree.

 

How about if a dump truck backs up to your regatta starting area and dumps 14 tons of tomato scraps in the water...



#55 mustang__1

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:54 PM

why not add an exceptions clause for obvious things like food or wool-yarn for kites? 

how do we really know its wool and not acrylic?  

synthetic yarn often requires too much effort to break in my experience, thus i have never used it on a boat anyway. 

 

why not add an exceptions clause for obvious things like food or wool-yarn for kites? 

Because of laws like this one for Wisconsin, which is probably typical.  "It is illegal to dump refuse, garbage, or plastics into any state or federally controlled waters." The Sailing Instructions are not going to say it is OK to do something that is illegal under state or federal laws.

thats definitely a problem, but not dissimilar to the oft broken USCG lifejacket rule at most dinghy events. 

 

 

we are moving from a gentleman's sport to a litigious exerciser in hoping other people arent assholes that protest for the sake of protesting. 



#56 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:55 PM

tomatoes are not trash, they are compostable organic materials

One could certainly argue that trash is distinct from garbage and that a tomato slice is garbage.   I give you that.  But yarn is trash compostable or not.  And broken rubber bands are unambiguously trash.  So the tomato may or may not violate rule 55 although it probably still violate local laws.  In practice it is probably a matter of degree.

 

How about if a dump truck backs up to your regatta starting area and dumps 14 tons of tomato scraps in the water...

 I doubt the dump trucks entry would be accepted so he couldn't infringe the RRS.



#57 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:55 PM

tomatoes are not trash, they are compostable organic materials

One could certainly argue that trash is distinct from garbage and that a tomato slice is garbage.   I give you that.  But yarn is trash compostable or not.  And broken rubber bands are unambiguously trash.  So the tomato may or may not violate rule 55 although it probably still violate local laws.  In practice it is probably a matter of degree.

 

How about if a dump truck backs up to your regatta starting area and dumps 14 tons of tomato scraps in the water...

 

which is why I would want it in the RC's and not in the competitor's hands.....



#58 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:01 PM

I think the bigger question here is: "Is it OK to toss bits of rubber bands and yarn in the water?".  And the follow up is then, What are we going to do about it?  Define it as OK or find another way.



#59 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

rubber bands and acrylic yarn- bad.  

 

wool or cotton yarn- i'm on the fence.  

 

someone is going to market a water-soluble kite stringamajig and make millions.



#60 taylorsailor

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:05 PM

Here on the Chesapeake, the water is so dirty - the fish can't see the rubber bands to mistake them for worms!

 

Also, I never 'intended' for the bands to fall in the water.  I intended that they fall back down on the foredeck!



#61 TheFlash

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:07 PM

it's not cool.  Ya'll make it look like sailors are smokers, flitting our shit out the window/overboard cause it's just a little pollution...

 

There will be other solutions if folks put their minds to it.



#62 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

rubber bands and acrylic yarn- bad.  

 

wool or cotton yarn- i'm on the fence.  

 

someone is going to market a water-soluble kite stringamajig and make millions.

or salami grindah based stringamajigs.  extras to feed to the bowman



#63 mr_ryano

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:27 PM

I assume someone will make a launch only spinnaker sock or a variation that comes back on deck and doesn't put anything in the water that will solve the problem.

 

I have a vague memory of seeing reports of Volvo boats using a bursting zip sock, with unequal length zips - like sail bags. Zip the kite into the sock, hoist (remembering to tie the sock to the boat), run the zipper past the short ended zip  so it can open and sheet on. Zip bursts, the kite's up and the sock gets retrieved. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam. 

We tried the socks on an 80 footer a few years back and it was a nightmare to get the kite in it and back up on deck in a bout race. There was also the issue of pulling 100' of the sock back on the boat while going 18kts.....



#64 ssi

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:42 PM

We tried the socks on an 80 footer a few years back and it was a nightmare to get the kite in it and back up on deck in a bout race. There was also the issue of pulling 100' of the sock back on the boat while going 18kts.....

 

You need a better sail handling system.  See, it's that easy!



#65 RumLine

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:06 PM

Surgeons use dissolvable stitches that are made primarily from organic materials, I would imagine that an enterprising materials engineer with a sailing background could make a product that would solve this entire problem.



#66 Presuming Ed

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:09 PM

So does this little rule mean that everybody's 40'ish and up now has to fit pedestals, overdrive boxes and string drop systems....?



#67 Boo-Yah

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:21 PM

There is no other way to read the rule imho.  What is commonly being done now violates rule 55. I can't see how they can re-write the rule to say it is OK to put yarn or rubber bands in the water.  I can't see how they can remove the rule.  All that has to happen is for someone to protest a boat and win the protest and nobody will be able to do what has been done for 100 years.  You can't go back.

 

I assume someone will make a launch only spinnaker sock or a variation that comes back on deck and doesn't put anything in the water that will solve the problem.

 

Allen

 

 

Write it in the instructions where Rule 55 is not subject to protest.  The Rule 55 penalty shall be $25....  The Rule 55 penalty shall be 1 second.



#68 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:31 PM

There is no other way to read the rule imho.  What is commonly being done now violates rule 55. I can't see how they can re-write the rule to say it is OK to put yarn or rubber bands in the water.  I can't see how they can remove the rule.  All that has to happen is for someone to protest a boat and win the protest and nobody will be able to do what has been done for 100 years.  You can't go back.

 

I assume someone will make a launch only spinnaker sock or a variation that comes back on deck and doesn't put anything in the water that will solve the problem.

 

Allen

 

 

Write it in the instructions where Rule 55 is not subject to protest.  The Rule 55 penalty shall be $25 buying rounds at the Seahorse

fixed it for you



#69 Touch of Gray

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:35 PM

Seems to me that any (even biodegradable material such as wool, rotten cotton, pink cotton candy spun into yarn) that goes in the water no matter how short its lifespan, violates the rule. Period. Tomato. Eat it shit it back out, problem solved. TOG

#70 mustang__1

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:44 PM

So does this little rule mean that everybody's 40'ish and up now has to fit pedestals, overdrive boxes and string drop systems....?

well string drops dont have much to do with yarning, and even boats with pedestal-driven hoists are using yarn when conditions conditions warrant. 



#71 Somebody Else

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:55 PM

I will never protest a boat from which some spinnaker-stopping yarn misses the deck and ends up in the water.

 

Never.



#72 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:56 PM

I will never protest a boat from which some spinnaker-stopping yarn misses the deck and ends up in the water.

 

Never.

what about a tomato?  grape?  cantaloupe?



#73 jim lee

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

What about white trash?

 

-jim lee



#74 Ryley

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:27 PM

Surgeons use dissolvable stitches that are made primarily from organic materials, I would imagine that an enterprising materials engineer with a sailing background could make a product that would solve this entire problem.

right until the first wave came down an open forward hatch.



#75 bruno

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

What about white trash?
 
-jim lee


does white trash have a half life?

#76 RumLine

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

Surgeons use dissolvable stitches that are made primarily from organic materials, I would imagine that an enterprising materials engineer with a sailing background could make a product that would solve this entire problem.

right until the first wave came down an open forward hatch.

 

Your statement implies that the sutures would also dissolve as soon as the doctor finishes stitching up the patient, rather than over time.



#77 Folding prop

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

We use yarn made of hemp. In light air we found that burning it serves as a good wind indicator. Are we breaking any rules?

#78 One eye Jack

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:33 PM

Rule 55 reads:
 
A competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water. 
 
So it would seem we're gonna have to figure out a new way.  Have they figured considered the implications, I don't know but probably they are trying to get people to change their ways.

BCDC in the San Francisco Bay declared a few years ago that all boats were land fill.. So under this rule... Will boats be illegal?

#79 One eye Jack

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:39 PM

So , is that ass hole crewmember that accidentally on purpose falls into the water.. Is that garbage, trash or biodegradable?

#80 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:42 PM

What next ? a ban on single use condoms ?


#81 PeterHuston

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:45 PM

 

why not add an exceptions clause for obvious things like food or wool-yarn for kites? 

how do we really know its wool and not acrylic?  

synthetic yarn often requires too much effort to break in my experience, thus i have never used it on a boat anyway. 

 

why not add an exceptions clause for obvious things like food or wool-yarn for kites? 

Because of laws like this one for Wisconsin, which is probably typical.  "It is illegal to dump refuse, garbage, or plastics into any state or federally controlled waters." The Sailing Instructions are not going to say it is OK to do something that is illegal under state or federal laws.

thats definitely a problem, but not dissimilar to the oft broken USCG lifejacket rule at most dinghy events. 

 

 

we are moving from a gentleman's sport to a litigious exerciser in hoping other people arent assholes that protest for the sake of protesting. 

 

 

"have moved" is more like it.

 

And people wonder why participation decreases.  I used to love racing, but just going sailing has its benefits too.



#82 Delta Blues

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

Just wait until someone jettisons a broken rig and sails overboard, sets up a jury rig and finishes the race, only to be DSQ'd for tossing trash overboard.



#83 JohnMB

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:36 PM

I will never protest a boat from which some spinnaker-stopping yarn misses the deck and ends up in the water.

 

Never.

what about a tomato?  grape?  cantaloupe?

Depends on the body of water.

 

Compostable organics in small quantities aren't a problem, BUT there are places where they could have a significant effect.

 

The process of composting removes oxygen from the water, so if you have a small, high traffic area where there is a significant quantity of stuff potentially going in the water, tomatoes grapes etc. are no better than raw sewage, in terms of the effect that can have on the oxygen content.

 

In most places this is not significant, but you when dumping your tomato you should at least think about it. Dumping it in a small enclosed harbor is not the same as dumping it in the middle of the Atlantic. Dumping in water already overloaded with organic pollutants is just adding to the problem.



#84 ojfd

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:37 PM

I'm curious how long will it take until some poor Laser sailor who eats his only banana between races (the one that was duct-taped to his mast) and throws peels overboard is protested under Rule 55.

#85 JohnMB

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:38 PM

 


 

we are moving from a gentleman's sport to a litigious exerciser in hoping other people arent assholes that protest for the sake of protesting. 

 

 

"have moved" is more like it.

 

And people wonder why participation decreases.  I used to love racing, but just going sailing has its benefits too.

 

The only people this rule should affect in any way are people who think its OK to dump trash in the water they sail in.



#86 Boo-Yah

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:52 PM

I'm curious how long will it take until some poor Laser sailor who eats his only banana between races (the one that was duct-taped to his mast) and throws peels overboard is protested under Rule 55.

 

Someone should ask at the skippers meeting whether the peels should be fed to the local marine organisms or toss onto the committee boat just before the warning signal.



#87 Asymptote

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:59 PM



 

 

 

 


 

we are moving from a gentleman's sport to a litigious exerciser in hoping other people arent assholes that protest for the sake of protesting. 

 

 

"have moved" is more like it.

 

And people wonder why participation decreases.  I used to love racing, but just going sailing has its benefits too.

 

The only people this rule should affect in any way are people who think its OK to dump trash in the water they sail in.

 

This no trash rule is not a problem at all, and has nothing to do with the US or the sport becoming "litigious."  The Hawaii clubs have had no trash rules since the 70's and enforced it.  

 

And...please...back in the day of the "gentleman's sport" that you so badly remember, it was common practice to dump anything you wanted overboard. Whatever, whenever, wherever.  I recall a gold-plate 70'er around 1970 sailing next to us just a few hundred feet off a very popular beach in Rhode Island when the paid hand walking aft with two cardboard boxes of lunch left-overs and paper plates and just tossing them over the side.   Shocking, I know, but the commodore of the NYYC was on board...presumable to fill the role of resident "gentleman".  



#88 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:01 PM

I demand that banana peel-eating monkees be provided by the RC for each entrant




 

 

 

 

 


 

we are moving from a gentleman's sport to a litigious exerciser in hoping other people arent assholes that protest for the sake of protesting. 

 

 

"have moved" is more like it.

 

And people wonder why participation decreases.  I used to love racing, but just going sailing has its benefits too.

 

The only people this rule should affect in any way are people who think its OK to dump trash in the water they sail in.

 

This no trash rule is not a problem at all, and has nothing to do with the US or the sport becoming "litigious."  The Hawaii clubs have had no trash rules since the 70's and enforced it.  

 

And...please...back in the day of the "gentleman's sport" that you so badly remember, it was common practice to dump anything you wanted overboard. Whatever, whenever, wherever.  I recall a gold-plate 70'er around 1970 sailing next to us just a few hundred feet off a very popular beach in Rhode Island when the paid hand walking aft with two cardboard boxes of lunch left-overs and paper plates and just tossing them over the side.   Shocking, I know, but the commodore of the NYYC was on board...presumable to fill the role of resident "gentleman".  

you mean it was bad form to toss Budweiser cans overboard and call then "crab houses"?



#89 ojfd

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:30 PM


I'm curious how long will it take until some poor Laser sailor who eats his only banana between races (the one that was duct-taped to his mast) and throws peels overboard is protested under Rule 55.


Someone should ask at the skippers meeting whether the peels should be fed to the local marine organisms or toss onto the committee boat just before the warning signal.

If it only were that easy..

Oral instructions given at skipper meeting are not valid, unless explicitly stated in SIs. Then what? Post a notice from RC to competitors? All the time, at all regattas for the next four years? Or do we need another Q&A on food leftovers from ISAF Rules committee? And what if some Race officials at smaller regattas do not read Q&A's?
Toss that stuff onto committe boat? Imagine 20-30 dinghys lining up at the committe boat in high seas and 20+ knots of breeze when races are run back to back with little time inbetween. That would be plain dangerous.

Just my 2 cents..

#90 Grinder

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:31 PM

rubber bands and acrylic yarn- bad.  

 

wool or cotton yarn- i'm on the fence.  

 

someone is going to market a water-soluble kite stringamajig and make millions   hundreds

fixed it for ya



#91 bloodshot

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:44 PM

rubber bands and acrylic yarn- bad.  

 

wool or cotton yarn- i'm on the fence.  

 

someone is going to market a water-soluble kite stringamajig and make millions   hundreds

fixed it for ya

make-it-rain-o.gif



#92 postpast

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:44 PM

"The only people this rule should affect in any way are people who think its OK to dump trash in the water they sail in."

 

That’s a ridiculous statement. On the other side of the world countries are dumping millions of tons of garbage into the ocean. Most of the shit you own is probably made in a factory that dumps its untreated toxic waste directing into an ocean basin.

 

There’s a good chance the clothes you’re wearing right now put more dangerous waste into the oceans then all the yarn and rubber barns ever used on a sailboat put together.


 



#93 Mojo Risin

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:46 PM

 

Rule 55 reads:

A competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water. 

 

Which boats does this cover?

 

 

-jim lee

 

"However, rule 55 applies at all times when boats are on the water."  Which I guess means it applies to all boats covered by the RRS racing or not.  I do not see any exception for boats racing far off shore.  
 
One thing he stressed in the seminar was that you should not try and figure out what the intent of the rule was.  That was something that went out of style a few decades ago. Now they interpret the exact wording of the rules.  If it says something they did not intend, they need to change it.  Until they do, it is the rule.  I am sure it has implications beyond what they intended but that doesn't matter.

I think Jim wants to know if racing something like this violates the RRS:

 

9118d1158264195-can-anyone-find-more-ugl



#94 jim lee

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:06 PM

One thing he stressed in the seminar was that you should not try and figure out what the intent of the rule was.  That was something that went out of style a few decades ago. Now they interpret the exact wording of the rules.  If it says something they did not intend, they need to change it.  Until they do, it is the rule.  I am sure it has implications beyond what they intended but that doesn't matter.

 

Exact wording huh? 

 

 

Rule 55 reads:

A competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water. 

 

Meaing, if you somehow launched it onto the beach? Your fine. Even if it didn't make it to the beach but fell short into the water your fine as well because it  wasn't intentional.

 

No problem!

 

-jim lee



#95 JohnMB

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:10 PM

"The only people this rule should affect in any way are people who think its OK to dump trash in the water they sail in."

 

 

 

That’s a ridiculous statement. On the other side of the world countries are dumping millions of tons of garbage into the ocean. Most of the shit you own is probably made in a factory that dumps its untreated toxic waste directing into an ocean basin.

 

 

 

There’s a good chance the clothes you’re wearing right now put more dangerous waste into the oceans then all the yarn and rubber barns ever used on a sailboat put together.

 


 

And that makes it ok how?

 

why does it matter how many other polluting activities there are which we have no control over, if we refuse to take responsibility for the ones we do have control over.

 

You want me to tell you its ok for you to put trash over the side?.... sorry I don't think it is.



#96 2high2tight

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:00 PM

How about det cord.....that would work. and it would be gone before it hit the water. And you could remotely operate it from the helm to ensure the chute pops open.



#97 Sailabout

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:05 PM

if a non sailor read this thread they'd think the seas would be better off without yachts



#98 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:12 PM

I demand that banana peel-eating monkees be provided by the RC for each entrant

we are moving from a gentleman's sport to a litigious exerciser in hoping other people arent assholes that protest for the sake of protesting.

 
"have moved" is more like it.
 
And people wonder why participation decreases.  I used to love racing, but just going sailing has its benefits too.

 
The only people this rule should affect in any way are people who think its OK to dump trash in the water they sail in.

 
This no trash rule is not a problem at all, and has nothing to do with the US or the sport becoming "litigious."  The Hawaii clubs have had no trash rules since the 70's and enforced it.  
 
And...please...back in the day of the "gentleman's sport" that you so badly remember, it was common practice to dump anything you wanted overboard. Whatever, whenever, wherever.  I recall a gold-plate 70'er around 1970 sailing next to us just a few hundred feet off a very popular beach in Rhode Island when the paid hand walking aft with two cardboard boxes of lunch left-overs and paper plates and just tossing them over the side.   Shocking, I know, but the commodore of the NYYC was on board...presumable to fill the role of resident "gentleman".

you mean it was bad form to toss Budweiser cans overboard and call then "crab houses"?
No the bad form was drinking that Cat's piss in the first place. To while away the dull moments offshore we play Clay pidgeons with empty bottles. You yell pull - a bottle is tossed in the air and you try and smash it with another one.
Bottles are made from sand. Ashes to ashes - dust to dust. And before all you lefty whale hugging Tofu eaters dive in, under Marpol regulations, glass can be disposed of overboard once you are more than 12 miles offshore.

From the IMO Website


Time taken for objects to dissolve at sea

Paper bus ticket
2-4 weeks

Cotton cloth
1-5 months

Rope
3-14 months

Woollen cloth
1 year

Painted wood
13 years

Tin can
100 years

Aluminium can
200-500 years

Plastic bottle
450 years

But I have a solution to hoisting kites with out bands in fresh conditions. Here is the recipe for success.
You will need
1 x Competent Driver
1 x Competent mainsheet hand
1 x Big strapping mast man.
Step 1 bear away step 2 ease main so kite can be hoisted in shadow of main step 3 tell the trimmer to wait till kite is up step 4 get the mast man to hoist like fuck step 5 when made come to course and trim.
No charge for this advice.
I will be here all week.

#99 TheFlash

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:18 PM

It's been a long time since I've seen a kite banded, and I sail on SF Bay.  Kinda windy here.



#100 allen

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:19 PM

This brings up the question of rules.  The idea is that we are a gentleman's sport and self police.  If you break a rule, you do your turns or withdraw.  It doesn't matter if you got "caught".  When you are out by yourself, you go around the mark, you don't cut it short even though nobody can see you.  We don't have umpires for most races -- we are self policing.  Personally I am going to stop putting trash (yarn) in the bay. I am trying to figure out how to deal with it but I am going to honor this rule.  And I am not a natural born rule follower either.  But I have been asked to police myself (by the RRS) so I will.  I am going to take it as a challenge   I am not going to protest string or rubber bands but I think we should figure out another way.






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