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Why the Z fold sausage bag?

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#1 ABC

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:13 AM

You know the drill: you've done a moderately good job of folding the genoa and now you have to Z fold the leach to get the sail in the bag.

 

Why, North Sails, do you do this?  Are the sails lasting too long?  Is bag cloth too expensive?  Is it too difficult to figure out how long the bag needs to be?

 

It kills me: these sails are upwards of $20G and you can't build a decent full length bag...  

 

And don't get me started about not putting handles on the bag...

 

They do put a nice window on the bag for the repair worksheet though.



#2 BobJ

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:26 AM

+1  If you think it doesn't matter, I am seeing it in the leech.

 

 

I think the zippers don't freeze up as bad as they used to - jury is still out on that.

 

Where the hell IS Sri Lanka anyway?



#3 Left Hook

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:58 AM

+1. Have seen 30,000 dollar genoas come with Z Fold Bags. No way to get them into the bag without creasing and fiber damage. For that much you'd think that making a bag the correct length was possible. 

 

Zippers are still fucked. 



#4 mustang__1

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:15 AM

they changed the colors of the zipper chords at least - now they are blue instead of yellow. i find it much more aesthetically pleasing. 



#5 Left Hook

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:52 AM

Blue on Blue is excellent camouflage as well.  



#6 catmanjr

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:53 AM

How to fix this.

 

Tell norths the bag is not big enough in the foot. Ask for new bag with plastic zip rather than spiral. (Spirals are the ones which freeze up, with plastic lasting much longer)

 

Not hard...



#7 Becalmed

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

Just order it with a full length bag if you really want one.  Most sailmakers usually ask what kind of bag you want with the sail, maybe you just need another guy taking the orders to give you the option.  



#8 Presuming Ed

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 01:10 PM

What I don't get is why all bags from any particular loft are always the same colour. Colours matching the sail selection chart would make life a little easier at 3am on day 4, when you're digging for the J3. 

 

It means you would know life is....interesting.... when you pull up the black sail bags. 



#9 longy

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:02 PM

  Many years ago when I was still running grand prix race boats I saw a boat that had all different bags - ,maybe Container? It was great, very easy to find the right sail. Attempts to get my boats sailmaker to do the same were refused, even after I said I would cover the cloth costs. It was advertising mindset.



#10 NoStrings

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:35 PM

+1  If you think it doesn't matter, I am seeing it in the leech.
 
 
I think the zippers don't freeze up as bad as they used to - jury is still out on that.
 
Where the hell IS Sri Lanka anyway?


+1. It's off of Bridgeway. ;-)

#11 'moondance44

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:31 PM

A $1.50 black Sharpie will sort out the blue bags at 0400.

#12 longy

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:54 PM

Well, if you can't see the 10" white numbers on the bag ends you wont see a black sharpy mark.



#13 ABC

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:52 AM

Focus everyone - try to stay on topic.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of North Sails reps sitting in their office, waiting for the phone to ring and someone to order the full inventory, that are "busy" cruising SA.

 

Maybe they can tell us.



#14 savoir

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:30 AM

Of course they can . . . . . as soon as they have finished their comic books.



#15 SailMoore1

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:43 AM

In the last year I have purchased 4 sails from North. Three sails came with bags the length of the foot. The one that didn't was replaced when the sales manager saw that it was short. The sail was ordered with a full length bag and he was surprised when we unfolded for the first time. There was no issue with getting it replaced. I also got one bag delivered with the metal zipper. That was also replaced with out me having to ask. Good customer service from the San Diego loft.

No handles on the bags. That would be a nice addition. And yes I have the repair order windows sewn into the bags.

#16 2high2tight

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:48 AM

all my bags are full length. When you place the order you say "full length" and its like magic.



#17 Presuming Ed

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:51 AM

Well, if you can't see the 10" white numbers on the bag ends you wont see a black sharpy mark.

But if it's buried under four other bags, you can't always see the numbers. 



#18 Schnick

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:59 PM

Full length bags aren't always good either.  I think you want the bags to be the length of the inside of the boat, so that you can store them full length inside.  On most boats this will be the distance from either the V-berth bulkhead or the head door, back to either the companionway or the front of the quarterberth.  No point getting full length bags if you're just going to fold them in half in the boat anyways, why not make them fit properly for stacking?  I

 

Just my opinion though, different systems work for everybody.



#19 USA190520

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:47 PM


Well, if you can't see the 10" white numbers on the bag ends you wont see a black sharpy mark.

But if it's buried under four other bags, you can't always see the numbers. 

Stow your sails better..

#20 longy

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:01 AM

   Rightttt. Last full race boat I ran, 45' long, there were 15 sailbags that had to stay on center midships. Pile was full width of the salon & 4' tall. Full length sailbags were folded & tied into 3rds to fit (&move easily) so only one labeled end of turtle was visible. A few sail changes later, any pre-set order in stacking was history. Next possible sail selection (both up & down) was always kept on top of pile if we had time/oppurtunity to churn stack (lite air only). Once into H1 or heavier yer butt stayed on the rail at all times.



#21 Ultraman

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:20 AM

   Rightttt. Last full race boat I ran, 45' long, there were 15 sailbags that had to stay on center midships. Pile was full width of the salon & 4' tall. Full length sailbags were folded & tied into 3rds to fit (&move easily) so only one labeled end of turtle was visible. A few sail changes later, any pre-set order in stacking was history. Next possible sail selection (both up & down) was always kept on top of pile if we had time/oppurtunity to churn stack (lite air only). Once into H1 or heavier yer butt stayed on the rail at all times.

Exactly!  Great idea at the dock, but if you have ever been down below on a race boat after a couple of sail changes in any breeze, everything is usually in a big wet pile in the middle of the boat...  Different colour bags is a great idea.  Almost makes you want to buy one sail of each size from a different sailmaker...



#22 catmanjr

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:29 AM

   Rightttt. Last full race boat I ran, 45' long, there were 15 sailbags that had to stay on center midships. Pile was full width of the salon & 4' tall. Full length sailbags were folded & tied into 3rds to fit (&move easily) so only one labeled end of turtle was visible. A few sail changes later, any pre-set order in stacking was history. Next possible sail selection (both up & down) was always kept on top of pile if we had time/oppurtunity to churn stack (lite air only). Once into H1 or heavier yer butt stayed on the rail at all times.

Exactly!  Great idea at the dock, but if you have ever been down below on a race boat after a couple of sail changes in any breeze, everything is usually in a big wet pile in the middle of the boat...  Different colour bags is a great idea.  Almost makes you want to buy one sail of each size from a different sailmaker...

Rockstar sewer will never have problems loosing sails downstairs.

Also going to another sailmaker for bags isn't as crazy as it sounds. This way you can have it made of a heavy bag rag whatever colour you want not to mention with handles and a proper zip.



#23 samc99us

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:55 PM

+1  If you think it doesn't matter, I am seeing it in the leech.

 

 

I think the zippers don't freeze up as bad as they used to - jury is still out on that.

 

Where the hell IS Sri Lanka anyway?

 

B.S, where's the photo?? I've spoken directly with sail makers about this, reputable guys who've been doing this much longer than you and I have, I've spoken directly with Contender and Bainbridge etc... folding i.e flaking a laminate sail has very little if any degradation to a sail. I can also safely say this as I have been folding laminate sails along a batten then rolling for the better part of a decade and you cannot tell a lick of difference because it was folded at a certain point. Your leech is degrading because:

 

a) you flog your jib

b ) your sail as shrunk some since new and you haven't adjusted your leech line

c) you flog your jib.

 

Not going to argue the full length bag deal, those are much preferred but the Z-crease isn't degrading your sail anymore than it lying on deck drying in the U.V rich port of your favorite calling.

 

+2 on the different colored bags, I like to know which bag has the J4 in it at 3am.



#24 BobJ

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:04 PM

"Not going to argue the full length bag deal"

 

Well that was the point, wasn't it?  As for your other blathering, you don't know me, how many years I've been "doing this" or most important, what the sail is made from.  Carbon is brittle and far less happy to be folded over in approx. the same place every time, then crushed under other sails, etc.

 

Nitwit.



#25 Left Hook

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:31 PM

Going on the record as saying that I think it's a bad idea to fold a string sail over and over in the same place - esp a carbon one as BobJ has pointed out. 



#26 Christian

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:38 AM

+1  If you think it doesn't matter, I am seeing it in the leech.

 

 

I think the zippers don't freeze up as bad as they used to - jury is still out on that.

 

Where the hell IS Sri Lanka anyway?

 

B.S, where's the photo?? I've spoken directly with sail makers about this, reputable guys who've been doing this much longer than you and I have, I've spoken directly with Contender and Bainbridge etc... folding i.e flaking a laminate sail has very little if any degradation to a sail. I can also safely say this as I have been folding laminate sails along a batten then rolling for the better part of a decade and you cannot tell a lick of difference because it was folded at a certain point. Your leech is degrading because:

 

a) you flog your jib

b ) your sail as shrunk some since new and you haven't adjusted your leech line

c) you flog your jib.

 

Not going to argue the full length bag deal, those are much preferred but the Z-crease isn't degrading your sail anymore than it lying on deck drying in the U.V rich port of your favorite calling.

 

+2 on the different colored bags, I like to know which bag has the J4 in it at 3am.

That is absolute BS - if you had anybody in the sail making industry tell you that I would stay well clear of those individuals.  Sure a soft fold is not bad but what happens to those soft folds when the sails are stacked is that those nice soft folds become sharp bends.  If yo believe it doesn't have any influence on the life of the sail I have a bridge I want to sell you. 



#27 OBW

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:49 AM

As someone else said full length bag can be bad as well. Zipper bags are the length of the J or a few feet longer. They fit easily down below. If you have a 38ft boat with Genoa foot of 23Ft the bag does not store easily its stretched all through boat or gets folded up. Most Laminates can handle the flaking just fine do not need to be rolled every time. The balling it up and stuffing sail down the hatch salt water crew stepping on it and flogging are hard on them. Its not flaking or an extra fold while putting it into your Z bag taking the life out of your sail.

#28 Merit 25

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:58 PM

The balling it up and stuffing sail down the hatch salt water crew stepping on it and flogging are hard on them. Its not flaking or an extra fold while putting it into your Z bag taking the life out of your sail.

+1, and on med. boats and bigger (30+ feet), no one is rolling sails anyway.  Imagine doing a sail change and the owner request you roll the old sail.  Yeah right, that's when I ask him to show me how it's done while I drive into 20 kts.

 

Colored bags are a fantastic idea.  Sure, a sharpie might do, but anyone can see the benefit of different colored bags.  Same reason people like different colored control lines. 



#29 Schnick

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:54 PM

Take this another step, a color coded clew and tack patch would be even better.  Have been caught out by someone putting the sails in wrong bags before too...



#30 OBW

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:23 PM

When I build a sail we will add 1 in draft stripes to the bag and head of sail for color coding. The bag would have a color code stripe and sail color code to go with bag. Each sail and bag would have own code then no mix up. Then can have a laminated card on deck telling what color code was what sail. Worked out well for most customers

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#31 atwinda

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:53 AM

I think most folks under estimate the amount of engineering and thought that goes into sail bags, and how extremely difficult they can be to build and even more so to customize.

 

The north bags are by far the most useful out of all the brands I've used- ullman are certainly the worst, and Q don't have all the kinks worked out.

 

The bags are J-length (mast to headstay) for a reason, the break between the front and rear of the zipper are there for a reason, the way you can reach the clew from the back of the bag without breaking the zipper, again there for a reason.

 

Length- full length bags mean more weight firstly, and that might not mean much for your 35'er but higher in the range (say a SC 70) bag weight becomes a factor. So as most have pointed out, if you want full length bags, ask (they're probably extra). But the j-length is good because you're bow team is on the bow, and not in the way of trimmers,etc.. in the back while hooking the headsail up. 

 

Zippers- it's called a fresh water rinse once in a while. I make a point to spray the shit out of the zippers with water after a regatta, and mclube them as well. The NS bags are designed to better control the sail while hooking it up- if properly luff stacked you can open the front zip, hook up the tack and head, and reach into the back of the bag and attach the sheets to the clew without breaking the zipper- then when you're sure that sail is the call, you can break the rear zipper and send it, all the while the sail was contained.

 

Now as far as handles- those tend to appear once the bags get longer. especially for bigger offshore headsails. they'll have handles and external ties for tri-folding (leech stacked jibs) for better stacking.

 

With the movement to furling kites and whatnot, those require a different type of bag.. usually custom, but well worth it.

 

Bottom line though, ask your salesman at the time of sale about what features you want on your bag.



#32 Soley

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:00 AM

How to overcome the degradation of Z folds:

 

1. Spend more money - buy more sails more often

2. If option one doesn't cut it - Spend even more money - get the owner to pony up for a new boat that has non-overlapping head sails.

3. If you are a shit sailor and are not good enough to sail for a rich guy who does not implement option 1 or 2; stop being a whiny cunt and shut the fuck up.







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