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Time to calculate the real "Cost-to-Compete"


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#1 Chris Bulger

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:52 PM

Most racing sailors like to compete with a shot at winning.  We all know that winning requires two things - good equipment and time-in-the-boat.  My boat needs to be competitive and I need to be as practiced as the fleet leaders.   In sailing, both equipment and practice time are very expensive and many sailors have limits on what they can spend.  Said another way - budget has a huge influence on standings in our sport.
 
So why doesn't anyone talk about the real Cost-to-Compete when comparing one design classes?  It's not that hard to calculate.
 
Why do sailors talk about the price of the boat when calling a class affordable?  For many popular classes – especially the fashionable twins M20 and J70 – the cost of the boat is a tiny fraction of the real cost for a sailor to succeed in the class.  To win in these two classes, it appears that an "amateur" needs to spend at least $100K per year with many spending 2-5x this much.  Professional sailors can own boats in these classes and spend less cash out of pocket – but they may well consume more economic resources than amateurs when you calculate the value of free sails and 100 days/year of funded practice time.
 
A J70 costs about $50K – so if we assume you sail it for 5 years and then throw it away, THE BOAT costs about $10k/year - less than what the top programs spend to do one Key West regatta.  If you were going whole hog at KWRW with half a new suit of sails, some bottom work and a few pros on board the bill for that one event could easily top 2x the boat costs.  OK….KWRW is and expensive regatta….but if the if the top amateurs spend $15K there, maybe they do 3 other events that only cost $7K and the worlds which cost $25K…anyway you can easily get to $50k per year without going nuts on upgrades and bottom work and insurance and ..etc.  So $10k/year of boat depreciation plus $50K/yr expenses – total of $60k with only 15% being the "price of the boat."
 
Hey, wait! I said over $100k/year or more to win in the J70 and the math just added up to $60K.  That's right, because the successful amateurs in fashionable classes like the J70/M20 - very often have multiple programs running simultaneously – a M32, Farr 40, TP52, J/105 etc. When I did my brief stint with the Freedom syndicate way back in 1983, 2 boat programs were a new luxury in the Americas Cup.  DC proved that they were a huge competitive advantage for both boat development and team training.  Today one boat programs in hot classes are the exception.   Just listen to Clean's interview with Terry H. from CRW - on how a M20 program fills the gaps in a multi boat campaign.
 
If we assume that a top J70/M20  amateur has at least one other program, then it safe to assume her other program is more expensive.  So my over simplified math is to double the $60K/year we derived above and we get over $100k/year as the Cost-to-Compete.  Again, many Pro sailors have jumped into these "affordable" classes and they spend less cash and win – but remember they get a deal on their equipment and the amateurs actually pay them to spend "time-in-the-boat"  Imagine how the 83 Cup could have been different if DC had been smart enough to convince Alan Bond to pay the US team to practice 200 days a year thereby allowing the Freedom Syndicate to put all its resources into boat development!
 
There is nothing wrong with very high Cost-to-Compete – it is great if a class can find a group who can afford to spend $1 million/year campaigning a boats that costs $50k.  But the sport needs less deceptive talk about "affordable" prices and more transparency about Cost-to-Compete.  Most of the changes in the sport since 1983 have increased the Cost-to-Compete, but this has been ignored for fear of scaring away customers.  The result is we see more churn – people jumping in, getting hit with the real expenses and getting out.  And we see more boats sitting on their mornings instead of the line.
 
The best thing US Sailing could do for the long term health of the sport is to conduct a study looking at the top ten boats in each one design class and do a rigorous version of my Cost-to-Compet SWAG – then publish the results.  Letting people get organized around this principal - intelligently select a class that is in line with their financial resources - would be a huge step forward for amateur sailing.  My guess is it would be really good news for the Lightning class.


#2 Kirwan

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:03 PM

Ok, I'll be the first to touch the tarbaby....

 

1. Many people consider this a hobby, and therefore don't really want to know how much they are really spending at it (or maybe they just don't want the wife to know). 

 

2. Between self delusion and gamesmanship, it'd be hard to trust any number a boat owner gives you about how much they spend.

 

3. What costs do you figure?  Boat purchase, sails, hardware and bottoms... sure, but what about hotel rooms, gas, meals and such... do you include the purchase price (or depreciation) of the truck you use to haul the boat around?   If you could be making $xx/hour at a job, do you include the 'lost income' for time spent practicing?  What about money spent by the crew - or their lost income?  

 

This old phrase comes to mind: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure"

   

 

 

Count me as one of those who became a cruiser because I couldn't justify the cost of being competitive. 



#3 condor

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:30 PM

There will always be a high cost to compete at the highest level of the sport.

 

Fortunately with sailing, there are many levels at which we can compete.  The number of people that want to compete at the highest level is small compared to the rest of the sailing world.

 

For everything from cruising, golf-style handicapping, to local one-designs, to the highest levels, we can all find a place we can play and do all right.  Often within the same club.

 

One of the beauties of the sport.



#4 •؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:50 PM

I sailed a regatta with one of the richest sailors in the country. Very high profile. After winning the regatta he was interviewed by a reporter who asked him "How much did the boat cost you?" 

 

I've never forgotten his response - "I don't keep track. If I did I probably wouldn't sail"



#5 Great Red Shark

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:48 PM

Kinda just smacks of sour grapes,  don't it ?

 

Look,  if somebody wants to win an event bad enough,  you are really going to have a hard time stopping them in a free country.  Just vote with your wallet and stick to a venue where your income/budget IS relevant.

 

As Peter Egan ( motorsport writer ) once said; 

 

" A racing addiction can make a heroin habit seem like a vague craving for somethign salty to eat."

 

Some folks have it BAD,  and they really feel the NEED to win - and that is what makes beating them with an old boat so much fun.



#6 •؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:58 PM

It gets down to value for money.

 

A recently departed yachting writer once wrote a story about that. A multi, multi million dollar Maxi sailed the course in 90 minutes. A little old $25,000, IOR  boat took 3 & half hours on the same course and came 2nd to the maxi on corrected time. Who is getting value for money there?



#7 pogen

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:10 PM

This is all crazy talk.   The last thing you ever want to do is look back though you checkbook and add up the annual cost, and divide by number of hours sailing let alone elapsed time racing.    The only worse thing would be to let the wife know.



#8 Great Red Shark

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:18 PM

But the original poster's point,  if he had one,  seemed to be "Those other guys spend way too much."  and I have to say that you are NEVER going to be happy with ANY societal interaction if you are constantly measuring your enjoyement based on comparing a spending metric.

 

Should there be a limit to how many boats I can own ?  How about what I can spend on the tow vehicle ?  Dinner ? 

 

You want a controlled-cost racing environment ?  Go find a Hobie 16 fleet if you can - they did thier best to limit the 'arms race' aspect of competitive sailing - and most of the serious racers have moved on to F-18s or other development classe$.

 

You are familiar with the defination of a Puritan is someone that has a sneaking suspicion that SOMEBODY,  SOMEWHERE is out there having FUN,  right ?

 

Get over your feelings of inadequacy and envy and you will have a lot more fun in all aspects of life.

 

Or,

 

You could quit the sport entirely.  That'll show'em !



#9 Drop Bear.

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:18 PM

This is all crazy talk.   The last thing you ever want to do is look back though you checkbook and add up the annual cost, and divide by number of hours sailing let alone elapsed time racing.    The only worse thing would be to let the wife know.

+1

Too True.



#10 BigSquid

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:20 PM

watch this video at minute 12:25:

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=t-L3L_3dyOE
Free advice. Before your next race, skipper, get your crew in a circle on their backs and from the middle of the circle repeat these words:
"See the sails.
See fellow crew members.
Realize the trust and faith and respect that you have for them..."
 



#11 Delta Blues

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:27 PM

But for the limited few who go to KWRW, there are droves of people who don't go.  So many that are happy to compete at their club at home working to win the seasons championship.  And those folks are not spending the crazy money you are talking about.  If you can afford the crazy game, go do it, enjoy it and have at it.

 

If that game is out of your reach, do what you can afford and push your M20 J70 as hard as you can at your fleet and enjoy.



#12 Bill E Goat

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:38 PM

Why does everyone in the US seem to think you need to have a Pro on board to be able to compete.  Especially in a M20 or J70 !!!  It's not rocket science and there is a big difference between a Pro and a champion sailor ie someone that has won big regattas running their OWN campaign, anyone can become a Pro.



#13 Bulbhunter

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:47 PM

A hint for ya

 

If the class has a bunch of Pro's jumping on the bus your competition costs just went sky high. Given said pro's will be doing absolutely everything allowed by the class rules. If its one set of sails per year they will have a full suite of sails delivered on exactly the one year mark. Vs say your non professional who might replace one or two sails once a year.

 

If Pro's are in the class and your shooting for top finish you'll also be taking more days off work arriving a few days early to sort out where the course is what side pays more and to fine tune the boat for the conditions. That adds more money to the cost vs arriving at 11am the night before the race and spending the few last hours getting the boat rigged and ready before the first start gun.

 

Ya want me to continue?

 

Do I think Pro's should be racing? Sure how else is a working stiff going to show up the morning of to a boat already to go and get a shot at being in the top of the fleet? Are there classes where Pro's should be told to move on? Yep some classes should be left to the average man to do what he can per his budget and time etc.

 

My take on this is simple. If you make a pile of money and have a large budget go race in the classes with the Pro's the level of racing is very high and your budget is big enough to have a pro get the boat set up for you before you arrive. Good stuff!

 

If your sailing budget is tight pick a class with few to no pro's and everyone else your racing against shares the same challenges and limitations regarding budget and time on the boat etc.

 

Either class you have the potential to do very well its when you have a thin budget in a class full of pro's its like oil and water the two simply don't work very well.



#14 TheFlash

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:59 PM

my wife tracks my spending on boats(she does all the checkbook stuff).  Don't let your wife do this.



#15 jerseyguy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:15 PM

my wife tracks my spending on boats(she does all the checkbook stuff).  Don't let your wife do this.

Mine does too.

 

When we bought out 5k shitbox 30+ years ago, I said to her "make up a debit and credit sheet."  She said: "they are all debits."  But our kids, now grown with families of their own still race, one on a rather high profile program.  So does she-with other people. 



#16 us7070

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:49 PM

Key West is an expensive regatta.

 

But, just because you have a J/70 doesn't mean you _have_to do Key West.

 

That class will be very big, and there will be plenty of local fleet racing, which will be relatively inexpensive.



#17 clamslapper

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:52 PM

Most racing sailors like to compete with a shot at winning.  We all know that winning requires two things - good equipment and time-in-the-boat.  My boat needs to be competitive and I need to be as practiced as the fleet leaders.   In sailing, both equipment and practice time are very expensive and many sailors have limits on what they can spend.  Said another way - budget has a huge influence on standings in our sport.
 
So why doesn't anyone talk about the real Cost-to-Compete when comparing one design classes?  It's not that hard to calculate.
 
Why do sailors talk about the price of the boat when calling a class affordable?  For many popular classes – especially the fashionable twins M20 and J70 – the cost of the boat is a tiny fraction of the real cost for a sailor to succeed in the class.  To win in these two classes, it appears that an "amateur" needs to spend at least $100K per year with many spending 2-5x this much.  Professional sailors can own boats in these classes and spend less cash out of pocket – but they may well consume more economic resources than amateurs when you calculate the value of free sails and 100 days/year of funded practice time.
 
A J70 costs about $50K – so if we assume you sail it for 5 years and then throw it away, THE BOAT costs about $10k/year - less than what the top programs spend to do one Key West regatta.  If you were going whole hog at KWRW with half a new suit of sails, some bottom work and a few pros on board the bill for that one event could easily top 2x the boat costs.  OK….KWRW is and expensive regatta….but if the if the top amateurs spend $15K there, maybe they do 3 other events that only cost $7K and the worlds which cost $25K…anyway you can easily get to $50k per year without going nuts on upgrades and bottom work and insurance and ..etc.  So $10k/year of boat depreciation plus $50K/yr expenses – total of $60k with only 15% being the "price of the boat."
 
Hey, wait! I said over $100k/year or more to win in the J70 and the math just added up to $60K.  That's right, because the successful amateurs in fashionable classes like the J70/M20 - very often have multiple programs running simultaneously – a M32, Farr 40, TP52, J/105 etc. When I did my brief stint with the Freedom syndicate way back in 1983, 2 boat programs were a new luxury in the Americas Cup.  DC proved that they were a huge competitive advantage for both boat development and team training.  Today one boat programs in hot classes are the exception.   Just listen to Clean's interview with Terry H. from CRW - on how a M20 program fills the gaps in a multi boat campaign.
 
If we assume that a top J70/M20  amateur has at least one other program, then it safe to assume her other program is more expensive.  So my over simplified math is to double the $60K/year we derived above and we get over $100k/year as the Cost-to-Compete.  Again, many Pro sailors have jumped into these "affordable" classes and they spend less cash and win – but remember they get a deal on their equipment and the amateurs actually pay them to spend "time-in-the-boat"  Imagine how the 83 Cup could have been different if DC had been smart enough to convince Alan Bond to pay the US team to practice 200 days a year thereby allowing the Freedom Syndicate to put all its resources into boat development!
 
There is nothing wrong with very high Cost-to-Compete – it is great if a class can find a group who can afford to spend $1 million/year campaigning a boats that costs $50k.  But the sport needs less deceptive talk about "affordable" prices and more transparency about Cost-to-Compete.  Most of the changes in the sport since 1983 have increased the Cost-to-Compete, but this has been ignored for fear of scaring away customers.  The result is we see more churn – people jumping in, getting hit with the real expenses and getting out.  And we see more boats sitting on their mornings instead of the line.
 
The best thing US Sailing could do for the long term health of the sport is to conduct a study looking at the top ten boats in each one design class and do a rigorous version of my Cost-to-Compet SWAG – then publish the results.  Letting people get organized around this principal - intelligently select a class that is in line with their financial resources - would be a huge step forward for amateur sailing.  My guess is it would be really good news for the Lightning class.

 

This is so true.  I just race a humble J24.  We have a very good boat -- I can't remember how much I paid to have the foils and bottom done but it was an awful lot. We have pretty good sails -- on average a given sail on our boat is ~1-2 years old.  Even at our B+ level, the costs really add up. But it's just plain shocking how much the factory boats must be spending.  The Quantum and North boats generally had all pros to the best of my knowledge.  And for the first race of any major regatta, there's a 100% chance that they will have absolutely brand new, crackly, perfect sails.   Their trailers are perfect.  Their outfits are perfect.  The bottom of their boats is simply immaculate.  To even get a top quarter finish in a major regatta competing with the big boys entails spending lots and lots of dosh.  

 

This is one reason why I'm inclined to go back to dinghies.  Thought I'd go to a Viper due to its towability, but for some reason unlike many SA members I didn't think it was the cat's meow.  I grew up on Thistles and 470s and while the running costs of a serious campaign are still considerable, they're literally an order of magnitude less than doing the same in even a basic keelboat.  The regattas are every bit as fun and often much more so.



#18 Bulbhunter

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:15 AM

 

Most racing sailors like to compete with a shot at winning.  We all know that winning requires two things - good equipment and time-in-the-boat.  My boat needs to be competitive and I need to be as practiced as the fleet leaders.   In sailing, both equipment and practice time are very expensive and many sailors have limits on what they can spend.  Said another way - budget has a huge influence on standings in our sport.
 
So why doesn't anyone talk about the real Cost-to-Compete when comparing one design classes?  It's not that hard to calculate.
 
Why do sailors talk about the price of the boat when calling a class affordable?  For many popular classes – especially the fashionable twins M20 and J70 – the cost of the boat is a tiny fraction of the real cost for a sailor to succeed in the class.  To win in these two classes, it appears that an "amateur" needs to spend at least $100K per year with many spending 2-5x this much.  Professional sailors can own boats in these classes and spend less cash out of pocket – but they may well consume more economic resources than amateurs when you calculate the value of free sails and 100 days/year of funded practice time.
 
A J70 costs about $50K – so if we assume you sail it for 5 years and then throw it away, THE BOAT costs about $10k/year - less than what the top programs spend to do one Key West regatta.  If you were going whole hog at KWRW with half a new suit of sails, some bottom work and a few pros on board the bill for that one event could easily top 2x the boat costs.  OK….KWRW is and expensive regatta….but if the if the top amateurs spend $15K there, maybe they do 3 other events that only cost $7K and the worlds which cost $25K…anyway you can easily get to $50k per year without going nuts on upgrades and bottom work and insurance and ..etc.  So $10k/year of boat depreciation plus $50K/yr expenses – total of $60k with only 15% being the "price of the boat."
 
Hey, wait! I said over $100k/year or more to win in the J70 and the math just added up to $60K.  That's right, because the successful amateurs in fashionable classes like the J70/M20 - very often have multiple programs running simultaneously – a M32, Farr 40, TP52, J/105 etc. When I did my brief stint with the Freedom syndicate way back in 1983, 2 boat programs were a new luxury in the Americas Cup.  DC proved that they were a huge competitive advantage for both boat development and team training.  Today one boat programs in hot classes are the exception.   Just listen to Clean's interview with Terry H. from CRW - on how a M20 program fills the gaps in a multi boat campaign.
 
If we assume that a top J70/M20  amateur has at least one other program, then it safe to assume her other program is more expensive.  So my over simplified math is to double the $60K/year we derived above and we get over $100k/year as the Cost-to-Compete.  Again, many Pro sailors have jumped into these "affordable" classes and they spend less cash and win – but remember they get a deal on their equipment and the amateurs actually pay them to spend "time-in-the-boat"  Imagine how the 83 Cup could have been different if DC had been smart enough to convince Alan Bond to pay the US team to practice 200 days a year thereby allowing the Freedom Syndicate to put all its resources into boat development!
 
There is nothing wrong with very high Cost-to-Compete – it is great if a class can find a group who can afford to spend $1 million/year campaigning a boats that costs $50k.  But the sport needs less deceptive talk about "affordable" prices and more transparency about Cost-to-Compete.  Most of the changes in the sport since 1983 have increased the Cost-to-Compete, but this has been ignored for fear of scaring away customers.  The result is we see more churn – people jumping in, getting hit with the real expenses and getting out.  And we see more boats sitting on their mornings instead of the line.
 
The best thing US Sailing could do for the long term health of the sport is to conduct a study looking at the top ten boats in each one design class and do a rigorous version of my Cost-to-Compet SWAG – then publish the results.  Letting people get organized around this principal - intelligently select a class that is in line with their financial resources - would be a huge step forward for amateur sailing.  My guess is it would be really good news for the Lightning class.

 

This is so true.  I just race a humble J24.  We have a very good boat -- I can't remember how much I paid to have the foils and bottom done but it was an awful lot. We have pretty good sails -- on average a given sail on our boat is ~1-2 years old.  Even at our B+ level, the costs really add up. But it's just plain shocking how much the factory boats must be spending.  The Quantum and North boats generally had all pros to the best of my knowledge.  And for the first race of any major regatta, there's a 100% chance that they will have absolutely brand new, crackly, perfect sails.   Their trailers are perfect.  Their outfits are perfect.  The bottom of their boats is simply immaculate.  To even get a top quarter finish in a major regatta competing with the big boys entails spending lots and lots of dosh.  

 

This is one reason why I'm inclined to go back to dinghies.  Thought I'd go to a Viper due to its towability, but for some reason unlike many SA members I didn't think it was the cat's meow.  I grew up on Thistles and 470s and while the running costs of a serious campaign are still considerable, they're literally an order of magnitude less than doing the same in even a basic keelboat.  The regattas are every bit as fun and often much more so.

Yep right there with you on your logic. Psst Weta looks fun and they are starting to get a good number of fun events. Not to mention it packs into a tight little package and the right regatta rig could be easy and affordable to run. Major! Reason I keep eyeing the Weta. It's pretty quick a new design yet lacks the added cost that comes with a class that attracts a pile of Pro's to it. Raced J/24's for 7yrs had a boat rebuilt top to bottom with one of those ultimate bottoms all done by the owner him self even built the new hatch with his own hands! Then he chartered the 100% virgin hull to a pro team for the worlds who rigged the boat to the 9's. Wasn't OD racing when we raced against a J/24 still sporting its original 70's paint scheme and original factory rig and keel. We weren't even Pro's heck we were mid to bottom middle of the local fleet. But more or less we still had the same issues you had we raced the same damn sails for 5yrs! The top boats had a new damn set of sails at least once a year or more.



#19 Kirwan

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:17 AM

I'm reminded of the old saying about boat length:

 

- There's what you tell the harbormaster (lowest you can find)

- What you tell your friends (longest you can claim)

- What it actually measures  (somewhere in the middle)

 

So when it comes to costs, there's:

 

- What you tell your wife (lowest possible figure)

- What you tell your tax accountant (largest number you can imagine)

- What you actually spend (Much more than that)



#20 pnwsockpuppet

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:39 AM

Even with a club racer it was costing me $1,000 every time I left the dock. Weekday, weekend didn't matter. used to remind folks of that from time to time when they bitched about the snacks that day. Used to say "I did my part, now it's your turn", so quit your bitching and trim better or I'll just stay at the dock and hire a few hookers, they don't bitch and I'll get the trim.

 

If your crew was hookers would they count as pros?



#21 Ned

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:20 AM

Rich guy wins yacht race.  Film at eleven. 



#22 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:48 AM

I have bitched about racing getting far more expensive as much as anyone, but on the bright side:

A - You can compete against top talent in a way unavailable in almost any other sport.

B - It is likely there is a low budget class around too. Our local Cal 25 sailors seem to have the most fun per $ of anyone.

 

Don't turn yourself into an airplane owner style budget analyst if you ever want to enjoy your boat again. At the airport people can tell me the cost to buy the plane and the total cost per hour including maintenance and reserves for an engine overhaul to the penny. Total buzzkill :(



#23 6924

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:41 AM

The OP has a Good Point -

what is silly is most paid pros aren't even that good

#24 dacapo

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:05 PM

Why does everyone in the US seem to think you need to have a Pro on board to be able to compete.  Especially in a M20 or J70 !!!  It's not rocket science and there is a big difference between a Pro and a champion sailor ie someone that has won big regattas running their OWN
campaign, anyone can become a Pro.

isaf told me i was a pro...so it must be true ;-)

#25 btbotfa

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:22 PM

Why does everyone in the US seem to think you need to have a Pro on board to be able to compete.  Especially in a M20 or J70 !!!  It's not rocket science and there is a big difference between a Pro and a champion sailor ie someone that has won big regattas running their OWN
campaign, anyone can become a Pro.

isaf told me i was a pro...so it must be true ;-)

u definitely a pro Dacapo, you get paid to play......a mandolin



#26 chaos!341

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:05 PM

i kept up with the $$$ one year when I was racing a 1/2 ton...

that included boat upkeep, sails, delivery expenses which varied as to how far we had to go...

food and beer bills, bar bills at the yacht club, marina fees, trasportation to and from regatta site, motel rooms...it goes on...

 

when i added it up for doing 25 regattas for that year i came close to stroking out....

never kept up with the $$$$ again after that...



#27 dacapo

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:32 PM


Why does everyone in the US seem to think you need to have a Pro on board to be able to compete.  Especially in a M20 or J70 !!!  It's not rocket science and there is a big difference between a Pro and a champion sailor ie someone that has won big regattas running their OWN
campaign, anyone can become a Pro.

isaf told me i was a pro...so it must be true ;-)
u definitely a pro Dacapo, you get paid to play......a mandolin

naw...im just a hack

#28 monsoon

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:34 PM

This is all crazy talk.   The last thing you ever want to do is look back though you checkbook and add up the annual cost, and divide by number of hours sailing let alone elapsed time racing.    The only worse thing would be to let the wife know.

 

+1

 

My wife once asked me what we (I) spend on the boat every year. I just said, "Don't know, but its a lot cheaper than therapy."



#29 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:44 PM

There is total cost and marginal cost. Would you have your boat anyway if you didn't race her?

 

As for therapy, +10000



#30 old bow

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

What about the cost of the divorce? Does that count?



#31 Greyhound37

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:13 PM

The formula I have always used to justify and/or pull the plug on racing is level of enjoyment. So if I spent $10K and had $100K in exciting enjoyment then its a bargain. Since my boat is 60% cruiser the flopping around from port to port gets factored in.

In my sports car racing days I was having a ball and had $100K cost for $200K worth of fun. Then the tide turned where I was in over my head, getting clubbed like a baby seal and bleeding cash. Good time to move on. 



#32 floating dutchman

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:18 PM

Interesting, I've actually met a few accountants who own boats.  Not one of them complained about the cost of owning a boat.

 

If anyone can work out the cost per hour of fun on a boat an accountant can.

 

A while back The first time I met one of my dock neighbours and found out he was an accountant I sniggered and laughed, then said "and you own a boat?"  "It cost's what it costs, this is my hobby" or something to that effect was the answer, If it's good enough for him its good enough for me I reckon.

Bank isn’t foreclosing on the house, so I'm good. 



#33 hard aground

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:29 PM

Quick question: Is it worth it?



#34 Sticky Icky

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:29 PM

This is a forum right?  If you want more conversation about operating costs(which is discussed pretty heavily in every thread I've read), well lead the way, but you can't really ask people not to discuss something else (the cost of a boat), it's a free world.  I also haven't seen either the M20 or J70 described as a budget campaign alternative to other 20 foot boats

 

1 if you're that good that you feel you should be one of the top amateurs in the world you surely can sail on other people's boats for basically free, and learn a lot more than just continuing to drive your own

 

2 the eagan family has been what one of the top 5/10 teams in their M20, what's the name of their M32 and TP52?  maybe look into what else they race

 

other than that you're just whining that the more you drag your personally owned boat around and get good crew to come sail for you the more it costs you... or that the same really wealthy people who are racing large expensive boats and pay someone to keep them shiny are starting to race small expensive boats and pay someone to keep them shiny...



#35 Ajax

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

There will always be a high cost to compete at the highest level of the sport.

 

Fortunately with sailing, there are many levels at which we can compete.  The number of people that want to compete at the highest level is small compared to the rest of the sailing world.

 

For everything from cruising, golf-style handicapping, to local one-designs, to the highest levels, we can all find a place we can play and do all right.  Often within the same club.

 

One of the beauties of the sport.

 

+1 on the bolded part. I'm happy racing in the "seedy" (C/D) fleet. That's the level at which I can afford to play, and I'm fine with that. Don't need no pro's either. My crew exhibited a near-vertical learning curve last year. Some of them will go on to do great things.



#36 chaos!341

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

a racing friend and boat owner once told me..."it's not how much it cost...but how much you can afford every week"...

that's been my mantra for close to 37 years...

my wife races with us most of the time so she knows the "real cost"...



#37 Trov„o

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:55 PM

the least expensive way to get a sailing trophy is...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.. buying one. :P



#38 clamslapper

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:20 PM

Ok, I'll be the first to touch the tarbaby....

 

1. Many people consider this a hobby, and therefore don't really want to know how much they are really spending at it (or maybe they just don't want the wife to know). 

 

2. Between self delusion and gamesmanship, it'd be hard to trust any number a boat owner gives you about how much they spend.

 

3. What costs do you figure?  Boat purchase, sails, hardware and bottoms... sure, but what about hotel rooms, gas, meals and such... do you include the purchase price (or depreciation) of the truck you use to haul the boat around?   If you could be making $xx/hour at a job, do you include the 'lost income' for time spent practicing?  What about money spent by the crew - or their lost income?  

 

This old phrase comes to mind: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure"

   

 

 

Count me as one of those who became a cruiser because I couldn't justify the cost of being competitive. 

 

 

It's a little bit similar to the old saw that there is nothing as expensive in the world as free sex.*  Buying a rack of the most splendid trophies ever made is far cheaper than funding a campaign to actually win a couple of trophies.

 

(Which reminds me -- sorry to hijack the thread -- why are most modern trophies so utterly cheap, ugly and tacky?  Where did those cool dishes our dads used to win go?)

 

 

 

___________

*truth of truths



#39 bhyde

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:19 PM

This is all crazy talk.   The last thing you ever want to do is look back though you checkbook and add up the annual cost, and divide by number of hours sailing let alone elapsed time racing.    The only worse thing would be to let the wife know.

+1

 

Strangely my wife keeps a detailed record of all the money we I have spent on sailing. And when I say detailed, I mean She's-from-Germany-Down-to-the-Penny kind of detail.

 

I've never asked. I never will.



#40 Drop Bear.

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:44 PM

my wife tracks my spending on boats(she does all the checkbook stuff).  Don't let your wife do this.


This is crazy and should be illegal.

I agreed an £xxk budget with mine this year.

It was gone in the first month.

#41 frostbit

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:17 AM

Why does everyone in the US seem to think you need to have a Pro on board to be able to compete.  Especially in a M20 or J70 !!!  It's not rocket science and there is a big difference between a Pro and a champion sailor ie someone that has won big regattas running their OWN campaign, anyone can become a Pro.


+1. Don't hire the pros. Can compete at the top of the fleet for much, much less than suggested. Nothing is better than beating a fleet full of pros flogging amateur crews around the course. Nobody on those boats are having fun.

#42 clamslapper

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:50 AM

Many years ago I had two crewmembers fall ill just before a regatta, so I called up Quantum and hired two pros.  They were perfectly good sailors but nothing transcendant.  Regattas are fun because of the closeness of friends and family and the memories made. Those were the most boring three days ever.

 

Having a pro on your boat with people you like and love is like having a butler standing next to you with cocktails when your gf is showing you how much she missed you.

 

For the love of God, there's a guy who does the J24 ECC every year, and he hires four pros at $1k each per day.  And I don't recall a single year when he cracked the top ten.  That's two set of sails, dude ... knawhamsayin'? 



#43 crash601

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:32 AM

What's good for the Lightning class is, in a general and broadly presumptive sense, good for sailing.  Plenty of the sport's very best sailors either came up in them or raced them at one time or another.  Ain't no J70/M20 vibe...just good old competitive sailing minus the astronomical costs.  Cheap?  Not necessarily, but definitely cheaper.  Just sayin'.



#44 @last

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:39 AM

There will always be a high cost to compete at the highest level of the sport.

 

Fortunately with sailing, there are many levels at which we can compete.  The number of people that want to compete at the highest level is small compared to the rest of the sailing world.

 

For everything from cruising, golf-style handicapping, to local one-designs, to the highest levels, we can all find a place we can play and do all right.  Often within the same club.

+1 also.  I would add that sailing in general (racing, cruising, daysailing, etc) offers manual different levels and that perhaps is one of the beauties of it.  It is not a "one size fits all" type of deal so a person can select anything from taking a Sunfish for a liesurely summer sail, to for those with the means campaigning a grand prix maxi.

One of the beauties of the sport.



#45 Bump-n-Grind

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

I don't even want to know how much I've spent on sailing over the years nor do I plan to keep track of it in the future.



#46 hughsheehy

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:46 AM

Sail dinghies instead.  Problem solved. 

 

Plus it's more fun. And dinghy racing is a sailing contest not a logistics contest. 

 

H



#47 RDT

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:02 AM

Many years ago I had two crewmembers fall ill just before a regatta, so I called up Quantum and hired two pros.  They were perfectly good sailors but nothing transcendant.  Regattas are fun because of the closeness of friends and family and the memories made. Those were the most boring three days ever.

 

Having a pro on your boat with people you like and love is like having a butler standing next to you with cocktails when your gf is showing you how much she missed you.

 

For the love of God, there's a guy who does the J24 ECC every year, and he hires four pros at $1k each per day.  And I don't recall a single year when he cracked the top ten.  That's two set of sails, dude ... knawhamsayin'? 

 

I just had this conversation with my crew this past weekend during the Annap NOODs.  I enjoy the racing but it's about the road trip with my buddies and the fun on AND off the water.  We had a great time but I wonder how much the pros really enjoy it with the pressure to perform for their paycheck.



#48 RDT

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:42 AM

Many years ago I had two crewmembers fall ill just before a regatta, so I called up Quantum and hired two pros.  They were perfectly good sailors but nothing transcendant.  Regattas are fun because of the closeness of friends and family and the memories made. Those were the most boring three days ever.

 

Having a pro on your boat with people you like and love is like having a butler standing next to you with cocktails when your gf is showing you how much she missed you.

 

For the love of God, there's a guy who does the J24 ECC every year, and he hires four pros at $1k each per day.  And I don't recall a single year when he cracked the top ten.  That's two set of sails, dude ... knawhamsayin'? 

 

I just had this conversation with my crew this past weekend during the Annap NOODs.  I enjoy the racing but it's about the road trip with my buddies and the fun on AND off the water.  We had a great time but I wonder how much the pros really enjoy it with the pressure to perform for their paycheck.

 

In addition, it is all about the memories.  You can't always put a monetary value on it.

 

When we go on family vacations, I telll my wife that I don't want to know how much it costs.  It will ruin the vacation for me. I trust her to make good decisions when planning the vacation.



#49 maarten

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:55 AM

Nice topic. Has been going on since boats were invented I guess.

I can only tell you about how we run a program here in the low countries.

 

I love sailing and being out on the water. I love fast boats too and consider myself as total amateur but when in a boat I want to be fast and win.

There are a couple of rules I follow to keep costs reasonable:

-Never buy a new boat.

-Do not hurry when you want to buy, look for a good deal and act quickly

-Buy a sound boat with bad cosmetics

-Buy second hand sails in good condition (plenty of them around)

-Use your own elbow grease for jobs.

-Get the wife on your side (Tell her you consider buying an old Jag E-type, leaking oil etc. She can see it

  sitting on the front lane being the shame of the neighborhood and will quickly approve the boat buy!)

 

The above will never end up as a top boat but you can have a lot of fun for limited costs.

 

The last two years we had a J/22 competing locally in the Wednesday evening beer can races and the winter series. I normally sail with two of my brothers and as often as I can I go out single handed when it is a nice evening. When racing it is one design (6-10 boats) and we normally end up in the first half or better.

 

Cost of running the boat:

-Purchase price September 2011 E 6000,- (Including trailer, old set of sails, bad cosmetics but a

                                                                                             good deal)

 

Maintenance etc over 2-year period

-Underwater paint, 1 tin VC 17                    E  60,-

-Interior paint                                                  E  35,-

-Varnish                                                            E  25,-

-Mast/boom paint                                          E  25,-                  

-New cleats, Harken                                      E 350,- 

-New Running rigging/sheets                      E 500,-

-Good set North, complete 2nd hand          E 550,- (Got them from Canada, took them as luggage in the

                                                                                          plane, no shipping costs. Only used for one season)

Re-registered the trailer                               E 150,-

                                             Totals                   E1695,-

 

Running cost per year:

Insurance                                                         E 100,-

Berth at Marina                                              E 750,-

Boat slip in/out of water                              E 100,-

Entry fees races                                              E 150,-

                                             Totals                   E1100,-

 

Running costs for 2 years is           E 2200,-

Maintenance etc                             E 1695,-

Total costs for 2 years                    E 3895,-

 

 

Sold the boat this spring for E 7900,-

 

Costs therefore:  purchase boat + 2 years costs –selling price= (6000+3895)-7900= Euro 1995.

Yearly costs therefore is around Euro 1000,-

 

How many hours we sail??? No idea, probably 100 a year. This will give us a costs of around Euro 10 per hour. Not bad, that’s the same as 2 beers per hour.

 

The main point is that we want to have as much fun for the money. Guess we had a good deal out of the J/22. Nice boat but we wanted to have something faster so I managed to sell it decently in this time of crisis and just before the J/70 came out.

Again, looking for the fastest boat I could get for my limited budget and I guess I could make a good deal with the new boat even though I had to get it from the UK. (Bought and X-treme 25. Brrrr hate that name, but the boat is nice)

We will miss the one design racing but will enter the stage of the more high performance planning boats and will be first at the bar.

Time will tell if I did a good deal but so far we have fun!!!

 

Keep on sailing and do not think about how much money you will spend. You only live once, remember!



#50 Mainlander

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:14 AM

And who wants to be the richest guy in the graveyard anyway .....



#51 Gray Ghost

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:21 PM

Yep, the solution is to sail dinghies.  Let us take for example the Flying Scot class.  Huge class, well-organized and well-attended regional and national regattas, strict one-design to hold down costs.  Not very tuneable, so that sailing skill matters more than tuning.  Best sailed with two people.  Requires some athletic ability to sail it well in all conditions.  Cheap to buy (still under $20k for a new boat), rig, transport, and store.  Older boats remain competitive.  Pros sail in the class and provide a yardstick to measure yourself against, and some highly skilled amateurs, and at least one Rolex Yachtsman of the Year.

 

I can campaign a Flying Scot (including traveling to the nationals and Midwinters and my regional championship regatta) annually for less than $10,000, including sails, travel, boat depreciation (remember I get to depreciate it over its useful racing life which is a lot more than 5 years), yacht club membership, dry slip, entry fees, etc. 

 

And yet almost every time Flying Scots are mentioned on SA, it's with ridicule.  I think the people who make fun of it have lost sight of the inherent fun in sailing or racing ANY boat.  As someone who has raced dinghies, scows, windsurfers, small keelboats, and offshore, in over a dozen classes, I think the marginal difference in fun between racing a Scot and something hotter is very small. 

 

This thread reminds us why classes like the Scot survive, while so-called hot boats come and go.  20 years from now will there still be a J70 class?  M20?  Where is the M-24 class headed right now?  Flying Scots have been around for 60 years.



#52 Rum Runner

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:40 PM

Chris - Great essay but you forgot one big part of the equation.  The ability to compete requires time.  Most of us with the exception of many in the top programs have jobs which we need to pay the bills.  If you assume that the average working stiff gets 3-4 weeks a year of vacation and you allow 1 week for each major regatta you start running out of time really quickly.  Then add on the odd day or two to do smaller regattas and maybe attend mom's birthday or the kid's soccer tournaments and you have run out of time.

 

We all want to win regattas but quickly run out of time from our jobs to remain competitive and have a life that doesn't include only working, sleeping and sailing.  



#53 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:52 PM

Conversation after gov cup on way home - I was crewing on an old but fun 6KSB.

Crew1 - Did you see the shooting star just after midnight?

Crew2 - That sunrise was gorgeous.

Crew3 - I can't wait to do this race again next year

Crew from Donnybrook getting a ride back with us: You guys sound like you had a lot of fun. How did you finish?

Crew1 - Not sure - 3rd maybe?

Crew2 - I thought 6th or maybe 4th. It was an even number.

Crew3 -  I forgot.

Donnybrook crew - Your boat sounds like more fun than we had*

 

* and is worth maybe two Donnybrook sails at most :P



#54 snoochie poochie

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:04 PM

Not too many(smaller) j boats get thrown away after 5 years. It's not a fall apart boat like the m.
A good j 22 is 5k more than what they cost when built! This skews the whole concept. You could do a lot more than one semi local event for 7k.

Not too many(smaller) j boats get thrown away after 5 years. It's not a fall apart boat like the m.
A good j 22 is 5k more than what they cost when built! This skews the whole concept. You could do a lot more than one semi local event for 7k.

#55 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:08 PM

One real key to holding down cost is a boat that can:

A - be kept at your house

B - at a club

C - someplace other than a $3K-$10K/yr commercial marina.

 

The other most important thing is a class of people you LIKE TO BE AROUND. Some people seem utterly miserable to be either on the same boat with or anyplace near on the course.



#56 crash601

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:32 PM

Ever sailed Lightnings?  We used to live in Neenah (in the 70s) and financed our Lightning racing for several summers by repairing spongy bottomed Flying Scots.  Raced both...couldn't ever get excited about Scots even though Neenah had a fleet of them.  We had to trailer the Lightning to Fond Du Lac every week (or further) to sail against other Lightnings.  Worth every minute with my father and friends though.

 

In defense of dinghies in general...trailerable isn't always practical.  Lightings, Scots, 470s, etc. were and are indeed trailerable.  Everything is relative.  Just because you can put a small keelboat or sportboat on a trailer and tow it somewhere else doesn't mean you want to do it.  Set up time is the key.  Lightnings or Scots take less than an hour to go from hello to H2O with no special equipment.  There just aren't many boats that go 19 feet and up like that.    

Yep, the solution is to sail dinghies.  Let us take for example the Flying Scot class.  Huge class, well-organized and well-attended regional and national regattas, strict one-design to hold down costs.  Not very tuneable, so that sailing skill matters more than tuning.  Best sailed with two people.  Requires some athletic ability to sail it well in all conditions.  Cheap to buy (still under $20k for a new boat), rig, transport, and store.  Older boats remain competitive.  Pros sail in the class and provide a yardstick to measure yourself against, and some highly skilled amateurs, and at least one Rolex Yachtsman of the Year.

 

I can campaign a Flying Scot (including traveling to the nationals and Midwinters and my regional championship regatta) annually for less than $10,000, including sails, travel, boat depreciation (remember I get to depreciate it over its useful racing life which is a lot more than 5 years), yacht club membership, dry slip, entry fees, etc. 

 

And yet almost every time Flying Scots are mentioned on SA, it's with ridicule.  I think the people who make fun of it have lost sight of the inherent fun in sailing or racing ANY boat.  As someone who has raced dinghies, scows, windsurfers, small keelboats, and offshore, in over a dozen classes, I think the marginal difference in fun between racing a Scot and something hotter is very small. 

 

This thread reminds us why classes like the Scot survive, while so-called hot boats come and go.  20 years from now will there still be a J70 class?  M20?  Where is the M-24 class headed right now?  Flying Scots have been around for 60 years.



#57 1sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:55 PM

The principles of the original post (to encourage transparency) seem valid enough but the numbers are overstated.  Surely some people will spend as much as stated but it's a small percentage and is not a requirement for success.

 

Also, MUCH of the big spenders purchasing decisions are optional (pull your own boat vs. pro, saili your own boat vs. pro, motel 6 vs. the Sonesta, max out sail buttons vs. better sail maintenance etc etc).  Lots of the big spend guys are big spenders in every category of life, it's part of the enjoyment for them and should not be thought of as being directly translatable to boatspeed.  To the contrary those winter circuit dinner and bar tabs at LeBouchon (sp?) may even be detrimental to boatspeed!

 

There are as many "rich guys" in the back of the fleet as there are "budget oriented" up front.  It can be what you want it to be; but to blankly put it out there that you have to spend $100k / year to win in the melges 20 class is an overstatement and could only serve to deter prospective owners from getting involved in what might be the best sailing experience they've ever had in the sport.  That  was the case for me when I was involved in the class, nowhere near the spend described in the original post.

 

  I fully commend the authors efforts, in the interest of helping buyers make informed decisions, and hope my explanation contributes to that ideal.  

 

eric



#58 JimC

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:24 PM

Most racing sailors like to compete with a shot at winning.  

 

How many classes can you name where you can't look at the entry list before the start and pick out the 25%, probably 10% from which the winner will come?

 

Most sailors don't compete with a realistic shot at winning, and thank goodness for that, because we need that majority. If only the people with a realistic shot at winning turned out there'd be no sport.



#59 Drocca

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

Oh come on, 100k per year to campaign a J70.

#60 frostbit

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:28 PM


Oh come on, 100k per year to campaign a J70.


+100k

#61 PHM

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:29 PM

Good point in the OP that someone who has NEVER owned a race boat will most likely under estimate the running costs. I always tell people who are considering buying a boat for the first time that if you are wondering if you can afford the purchase price, you most likely can't afford to maintain and sail it (especially a race boat). Buy something that fits the budget including running costs. There are plenty of options. If you're not having fun racing because of the cost, time to down-size to something more affordable and fun. This is all about having fun and enjoying life, whether than means spending $$$ to run a top-flight M20 global program for those who can afford it and want that kind of thing or spending orders of magnitude less to race beer cans on an old Cal 20 with your wife and kids. That's the great thing about sailing....there are boats for a very wide range of budgets.



#62 The Gardener

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:12 PM


Oh come on, 100k per year to campaign a J70.


+100k

100 is on the high side but yup.

 

I can for sure say that events run about 8-13% the cost of a of a M32 event.

 

Or you can buy a 70 do an event throw it away and be ahead somehow.

 

That said things could be done cheaper..but you gotta dot the I's and cross the T's



#63 Great Red Shark

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

Has been a common mode with offshore sailng here - a guy that could afford a first-rate 30-footer buys a 40 footer and quits in disgust 2 years later because it costs too much.

 

So many of the points here about ability to store independant of a club,  ease of launch and family acitvity were all keystones of the Hobie Cat scene.



#64 Bulbhunter

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:23 PM

Ever sailed Lightnings?  We used to live in Neenah (in the 70s) and financed our Lightning racing for several summers by repairing spongy bottomed Flying Scots.  Raced both...couldn't ever get excited about Scots even though Neenah had a fleet of them.  We had to trailer the Lightning to Fond Du Lac every week (or further) to sail against other Lightnings.  Worth every minute with my father and friends though.

 

In defense of dinghies in general...trailerable isn't always practical.  Lightings, Scots, 470s, etc. were and are indeed trailerable.  Everything is relative.  Just because you can put a small keelboat or sportboat on a trailer and tow it somewhere else doesn't mean you want to do it.  Set up time is the key.  Lightnings or Scots take less than an hour to go from hello to H2O with no special equipment.  There just aren't many boats that go 19 feet and up like that.    

Yep, the solution is to sail dinghies.  Let us take for example the Flying Scot class.  Huge class, well-organized and well-attended regional and national regattas, strict one-design to hold down costs.  Not very tuneable, so that sailing skill matters more than tuning.  Best sailed with two people.  Requires some athletic ability to sail it well in all conditions.  Cheap to buy (still under $20k for a new boat), rig, transport, and store.  Older boats remain competitive.  Pros sail in the class and provide a yardstick to measure yourself against, and some highly skilled amateurs, and at least one Rolex Yachtsman of the Year.

 

I can campaign a Flying Scot (including traveling to the nationals and Midwinters and my regional championship regatta) annually for less than $10,000, including sails, travel, boat depreciation (remember I get to depreciate it over its useful racing life which is a lot more than 5 years), yacht club membership, dry slip, entry fees, etc. 

 

And yet almost every time Flying Scots are mentioned on SA, it's with ridicule.  I think the people who make fun of it have lost sight of the inherent fun in sailing or racing ANY boat.  As someone who has raced dinghies, scows, windsurfers, small keelboats, and offshore, in over a dozen classes, I think the marginal difference in fun between racing a Scot and something hotter is very small. 

 

This thread reminds us why classes like the Scot survive, while so-called hot boats come and go.  20 years from now will there still be a J70 class?  M20?  Where is the M-24 class headed right now?  Flying Scots have been around for 60 years.

Viper, U20, Open 5.7, J/70, M20 -- all are trailer to water within an hour if you hold off on the Beer till after it splashes.



#65 rantifarian

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:37 PM

 

Ever sailed Lightnings?  We used to live in Neenah (in the 70s) and financed our Lightning racing for several summers by repairing spongy bottomed Flying Scots.  Raced both...couldn't ever get excited about Scots even though Neenah had a fleet of them.  We had to trailer the Lightning to Fond Du Lac every week (or further) to sail against other Lightnings.  Worth every minute with my father and friends though.

 

In defense of dinghies in general...trailerable isn't always practical.  Lightings, Scots, 470s, etc. were and are indeed trailerable.  Everything is relative.  Just because you can put a small keelboat or sportboat on a trailer and tow it somewhere else doesn't mean you want to do it.  Set up time is the key.  Lightnings or Scots take less than an hour to go from hello to H2O with no special equipment.  There just aren't many boats that go 19 feet and up like that.    

Yep, the solution is to sail dinghies.  Let us take for example the Flying Scot class.  Huge class, well-organized and well-attended regional and national regattas, strict one-design to hold down costs.  Not very tuneable, so that sailing skill matters more than tuning.  Best sailed with two people.  Requires some athletic ability to sail it well in all conditions.  Cheap to buy (still under $20k for a new boat), rig, transport, and store.  Older boats remain competitive.  Pros sail in the class and provide a yardstick to measure yourself against, and some highly skilled amateurs, and at least one Rolex Yachtsman of the Year.

 

I can campaign a Flying Scot (including traveling to the nationals and Midwinters and my regional championship regatta) annually for less than $10,000, including sails, travel, boat depreciation (remember I get to depreciate it over its useful racing life which is a lot more than 5 years), yacht club membership, dry slip, entry fees, etc. 

 

And yet almost every time Flying Scots are mentioned on SA, it's with ridicule.  I think the people who make fun of it have lost sight of the inherent fun in sailing or racing ANY boat.  As someone who has raced dinghies, scows, windsurfers, small keelboats, and offshore, in over a dozen classes, I think the marginal difference in fun between racing a Scot and something hotter is very small. 

 

This thread reminds us why classes like the Scot survive, while so-called hot boats come and go.  20 years from now will there still be a J70 class?  M20?  Where is the M-24 class headed right now?  Flying Scots have been around for 60 years.

Viper, U20, Open 5.7, J/70, M20 -- all are trailer to water within an hour if you hold off on the Beer till after it splashes.

As are all of the sporties and trailerables in Australia. Took three of us 45 minutes to splash our 8.5m trailer bucket, and that had a 12m triple spreader rig. It isnt hard to throw a trailer bucket in the water once you have it setup.

 

This seeming reliance on pros in US sailing puzzles me, as it is very rare in Australia in boats under 40 feet. That might be why all the blokes who want to get paid to sail have to head to the USA, noone here wants to give them any money



#66 6924

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:53 PM

It is the Pros in the J/70 which make it so expensive to operate.  Shocking really $60k-$100k. 

 

 

Other Sportboats (Viper 640, Ultimate 20, and Vx One) do not appear to have the Pro component and therefore the costs to operate should be dramatically different. 

 

Pros also hurt the vibe of regattas - it is work for them and it shows at the parties. 



#67 SamLowry

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:16 AM

Nobody on those boats are having fun.

 

Amen.  I've been on a few boats with guest pros and it was never any fun.  And the results were never any better either.  So my rule is never have a pro on my boat during a race.

 

As for the rest, well, there's always going to be someone out there who's better than you, regardless of the sport, regardless of the fatness of your wallet.  You might nab a trophy here and there, and boy does it feel sweet.  The people that win week after week, they don't get that feeling.



#68 evenflow

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:11 AM

The best line I have heard on this was:  A:  Why did you give up sailing Melges 32s?  B: I was couldn't afford to sail against billionaires, so I bought a Melges 20, now I only sail against millionaires.


That kind of sums up the problem with popular one designs.  I'd love a J/105, but really, it would be a pain and pricey to race OD, and PHRF isn't really that boat's forte. 

 

So, what is the option?  Race PHRF or IRC?  or find a cool, quick dinghy class?  Yes, I see the Lightning point... we need more organized dink sailing... wish me luck on my first race of the season tomorrow.



#69 Bulbhunter

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:20 AM

It is the Pros in the J/70 which make it so expensive to operate.  Shocking really $60k-$100k. 

 

 

Other Sportboats (Viper 640, Ultimate 20, and Vx One) do not appear to have the Pro component and therefore the costs to operate should be dramatically different. 

 

Pros also hurt the vibe of regattas - it is work for them and it shows at the parties. 

Also nothing more fun that having a Pro shit all over the fleet breaking rules on the race course then instead of admitting they were in the wrong go to the room and claim that the protest flag didn't go up fast enough. If they were a "PRO" they would drop out of the race the second a customer calls em a d-bag for being such a prick on the race course.  No really I've run into far more Pro's on the race course breaking rules then arguing with their customers about it. A True PRO doesn't operate that way...



#70 frostbit

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:29 AM

It is the Pros in the J/70 which make it so expensive to operate.  Shocking really $60k-$100k. 
 
 
Other Sportboats (Viper 640, Ultimate 20, and Vx One) do not appear to have the Pro component and therefore the costs to operate should be dramatically different. 
 
Pros also hurt the vibe of regattas - it is work for them and it shows at the parties. 


The 100K number is complete BS. But it's a great trolling number.

#71 clamslapper

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:55 AM

It is the Pros in the J/70 which make it so expensive to operate.  Shocking really $60k-$100k. 

 

 

Other Sportboats (Viper 640, Ultimate 20, and Vx One) do not appear to have the Pro component and therefore the costs to operate should be dramatically different. 

 

Pros also hurt the vibe of regattas - it is work for them and it shows at the parties. 

Also nothing more fun that having a Pro shit all over the fleet breaking rules on the race course then instead of admitting they were in the wrong go to the room and claim that the protest flag didn't go up fast enough. If they were a "PRO" they would drop out of the race the second a customer calls em a d-bag for being such a prick on the race course.  No really I've run into far more Pro's on the race course breaking rules then arguing with their customers about it. A True PRO doesn't operate that way...

 

 

Great post. Your shitting all over the fleet comment brings to mind one of my least favorite experiences in sailing. Once way back when when I was new to the J24 fleet, I had a pro tactician on board for a regatta (which by chance we were doing extremely well in the regatta but for one poor finish). First of all, the pro was an utter tyrant -- when I complimented my pre-teen son and foredeck guy for a good maneuver, the pro would yell at me and tell me to concentrate on steering), and second of all, he got me into tight places that were way over my head. Clearly he had a poor relationship with several of the sailors in the fleet, and trash talked and made fun of them -- but I didn't see them laughing back.

 

Clearly something was going to give sooner or later. Well, it came when we were going around a leeward mark, and another boat asserted mark room as they claimed an overlap. Tactician starts yelling at him, no overlap, no room, driver do NOT give him room. I was about a season into it and not the most precise helmsman but did as I was told and did not allow room. The boats hit, and the inside guy proceeded to go nuclear and hailed protest and raised a flag. We got spun out way below the mark and lost several places. Tactician yells protest and pulls the red flag.

 

We get in front of the PC -- it was one of my first times and i was nervous. Everyone hated this tactician so much. The other boat got another nearby boat to testify that he had indeed observed an overlap. I got bounced from the race, and because I already needed my throwaway to make up for one poor finish, turned what would have been a nearly miraculous result for one of my first OD regattas into pure shit. I was so mad I just about punched the guy in the nose.

 

How much more satisfying is sailing when you've all worked together as a group of amateurs having fun than to have a pro on board. What I have found a much, much, much better bang for the buck, in terms of hiring a professional, is to hire the pro to work with us a few times a season, and either hang from the backstay or drive a launch alongside.

 

I think it really comes down to Chairman Mao's dictum: give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.



#72 6924

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:04 AM

45 minutes ? What duffers

 

One guy at our club  was able to pull up after the sequence started, rig with his 2 kids, ramp launch, and scull out about 150 feet to the start before the gun went off. This was back in the day of 10 minute sequences.

 

Lightning - of course



#73 Shaggy

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:12 AM

Oh god yes.  S20 = about 20 mins with mast down on trailer to splash once set up, with crane of course.   Trailer launch = about 10% more as ya gotta float the dang thing and skull to dock.



#74 Ben G

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:27 AM

Well I've no idea about pro sailors really.  Sounds like a a PITA for yacht racing.

One thing I like about 12' skiffs is there is little room for ego.  The boats are hard to sail so it's all sorted out on the water.  Anyone who can place well gets respect - if you can't sail, it's painfully obvious.

 

Anyway, back on topic.  I've kept a spreadsheet of everything I spend on the boat.  Bad idea!  It fits in pretty well with the OP.  When I sold it I gave a copy of it to the buyer, who said geez you've spent a lot on your new boat.  I replied, I've deleted what I spent on the new boat, this is for your boat!



#75 Bulbhunter

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:00 AM

Well I've no idea about pro sailors really.  Sounds like a a PITA for yacht racing.

One thing I like about 12' skiffs is there is little room for ego.  The boats are hard to sail so it's all sorted out on the water.  Anyone who can place well gets respect - if you can't sail, it's painfully obvious.

 

Anyway, back on topic.  I've kept a spreadsheet of everything I spend on the boat.  Bad idea!  It fits in pretty well with the OP.  When I sold it I gave a copy of it to the buyer, who said geez you've spent a lot on your new boat.  I replied, I've deleted what I spent on the new boat, this is for your boat!

LOL - nice.... The look on new owners face was priceless right? I'll remember that trick when I sell my next boat. HA HA



#76 roadracer

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:54 AM

So what's a realistic club racing budget for a j70? Figure 10-20 days a year racing and another 10-20 day sailing. Dry storage between sails. Main is $2500, jib is $1500 and spin is $2500. How often do you really need fresh dacron if you're trying to be competitive without wasting money?

 

Anyone who shows up at the big races and feels like they need to hire pros to crew the boat deserves what they get. In my experience racing on land, there are always people with more money than talent.



#77 Bill E Goat

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:11 AM

As are all of the sporties and trailerables in Australia. Took three of us 45 minutes to splash our 8.5m trailer bucket, and that had a 12m triple spreader rig. It isnt hard to throw a trailer bucket in the water once you have it setup.

 

This seeming reliance on pros in US sailing puzzles me, as it is very rare in Australia in boats under 40 feet. That might be why all the blokes who want to get paid to sail have to head to the USA, noone here wants to give them any money

45 minutes - how many beers did you have, we can do crap off and mast up in 15 then do the rest on the way to the start.  However we prefer to arrive and walk around the ramp being social and catching up with people, then maybe have a beer (yes some people can have a beer before the race) then put the mast up and down a few times as we forget things like the windex, halyards led incorrectly  t-ball caught then off to the queue at the ramp.  Maybe if we had a pro onboard we could all sit back and drink beer while he rigs the boat and launches it



#78 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:52 PM

If the J-70 owners are buying new sails every other day and hiring the crews off of VOR and AC boats, then this is NOT the class for low budget fun. If you want to have a lot of fun for a few bucks, it seems very obvious one needs to look elsewhere. It still seems nuts to me to pervert a small daysailing trailer boat into a huge dollar arms race, but if that's what they want.........................free country and all that :rolleyes:

 

In Naptown Lightnings and Cal 25s seem to get people out on a reasonable budget for a lot of fun. Your area likely has the equivalent ;)  The West River has a non-arms-race cat racing scene as well.



#79 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:43 PM

BTW - Didn't someone start a Star class series where the boats have to have bottom paint, be kept in the water, and have outboards? I doubt all the Star-Rock-Stars are showing up for THAT with new sails ;)



#80 PeterHuston

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:22 PM

As are all of the sporties and trailerables in Australia. Took three of us 45 minutes to splash our 8.5m trailer bucket, and that had a 12m triple spreader rig. It isnt hard to throw a trailer bucket in the water once you have it setup.

 

This seeming reliance on pros in US sailing puzzles me, as it is very rare in Australia in boats under 40 feet. That might be why all the blokes who want to get paid to sail have to head to the USA, noone here wants to give them any money

45 minutes - how many beers did you have, we can do crap off and mast up in 15 then do the rest on the way to the start.  However we prefer to arrive and walk around the ramp being social and catching up with people, then maybe have a beer (yes some people can have a beer before the race) then put the mast up and down a few times as we forget things like the windex, halyards led incorrectly  t-ball caught then off to the queue at the ramp.  Maybe if we had a pro onboard we could all sit back and drink beer while he rigs the boat and launches it

 

Let's be clear here - pro sailors are NOT to be treated as shore crew.   Imagine, a pro sailor actually having to do anything but hang off the backstay. 

 

I long ago stopped sailing on boats where there was a mix of paid and non-paid people, except if there was a guy whose job it was to maintain the boat.  He would get all the help I could give - the sailmakers that come aboard and don't offer to fold sails are legion - there are of course exceptions to that, some damn fine guys in the biz, but for the most part I have found the semi-pros to be the problem.  They bring way more 'tude than talent.  Typically, they are the type who aren't bright enough to get a job that allows them to be flexible enough to sail when they want.

 

If the J70 class wants to allow paid sailors, and sail loft factory teams, good luck.  Lets see how long this lasts.  All that is happening is that people are leaving classes like the Melges 24 and Etchells, and/or adding to a Melges 32 or Farr 40 program.  Why people think a boat with lead attached to the boat is a "sportboat" is beyond my comprehension in the first place.

 

Give it about another 15 months - the end of the summer in '14.  Just wait until you see used boat listings in the 25k range.



#81 Chris Bulger

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:41 PM

Perhaps my initial post was too long....Key points:

 

  • Sailors race to have a shot at winning
  • Winning requires PRACTICE & EQUIPMENT = "Cost to Compete"
  • Ratio PRACTICE/EQUIPMENT costs can exceed 10:1
  • Industry can't or won't do the math
  • Example: Bad to advertise that a J70 owner must campaign 3 other boats at national level and have a team of full sailors to have a shot 
  • This is short sighted - results in people picking the wrong classes - amateurs being squeezed to subsidize full time sailors - many boats on trailers..
  • Transparency would solve the problem


#82 Raked aft \\

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

In general, pro's follow pro's,  and their presence in any non grand prix class, is fleeting. 

 

 The exception would be the local sailmaker, who actually owns a boat in a particular class and

has sailed them for a lifetime.  Those are the good guys to sail against,  not A-holes and always willing

to share advise and a hand at the hoist.

 

  To minimize cost,  pick a fleet that limits- Sails & pros, and you should be competitive without breaking the bank.



#83 6924

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:00 PM

This interview with the 'winner' of the Annapolis NOODs sums up the situation in classes with Pros.

 

Priceless - Dave Reed really does a good job keeping a straight face.  So Embarassing for the owner.

 



#84 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:29 PM

My posts were too long too.

1. Find out where and what the cheap-ass sailors are racing.

2. Go there and do that B)

 

If you just HAVE to have a J-70, they'll be in the beer can races soon enough and pros will go strip-mine some other class ;)

 

 

Perhaps my initial post was too long....Key points:

 

  • Sailors race to have a shot at winning
  • Winning requires PRACTICE & EQUIPMENT = "Cost to Compete"
  • Ratio PRACTICE/EQUIPMENT costs can exceed 10:1
  • Industry can't or won't do the math
  • Example: Bad to advertise that a J70 owner must campaign 3 other boats at national level and have a team of full sailors to have a shot 
  • This is short sighted - results in people picking the wrong classes - amateurs being squeezed to subsidize full time sailors - many boats on trailers..
  • Transparency would solve the problem


#85 DoRag

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:37 PM

If pros were disallowed in the classes, there would be no need to go to those cost levels. And yes, any good amateur could be competitive. 

 

So why is it that the major classes do allow pros on board - driving or whispering in the drivers ear or tactician, whatever?

 

We all have our on theory as to the causes for the demise of sailing, and right at the top of the list is the ever escalating cost (and one major cause for that is the need to involve Pros in your program).

 

 

 

A hint for ya

 

If the class has a bunch of Pro's jumping on the bus your competition costs just went sky high. Given said pro's will be doing absolutely everything allowed by the class rules. If its one set of sails per year they will have a full suite of sails delivered on exactly the one year mark. Vs say your non professional who might replace one or two sails once a year.

 

If Pro's are in the class and your shooting for top finish you'll also be taking more days off work arriving a few days early to sort out where the course is what side pays more and to fine tune the boat for the conditions. That adds more money to the cost vs arriving at 11am the night before the race and spending the few last hours getting the boat rigged and ready before the first start gun.

 

Ya want me to continue?

 

Do I think Pro's should be racing? Sure how else is a working stiff going to show up the morning of to a boat already to go and get a shot at being in the top of the fleet? Are there classes where Pro's should be told to move on? Yep some classes should be left to the average man to do what he can per his budget and time etc.

 

My take on this is simple. If you make a pile of money and have a large budget go race in the classes with the Pro's the level of racing is very high and your budget is big enough to have a pro get the boat set up for you before you arrive. Good stuff!

 

If your sailing budget is tight pick a class with few to no pro's and everyone else your racing against shares the same challenges and limitations regarding budget and time on the boat etc.

 

Either class you have the potential to do very well its when you have a thin budget in a class full of pro's its like oil and water the two simply don't work very well.



#86 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

Before there were pros there were the guys that got rid of perfectly good 3-5 year old sails and tried to out-$$$ the competition and then some people got sails EVERY YEAR :o

I remember when there was basically no such thing as dry-sailing a boat that wasn't something like a 420 too.



#87 Red Dragon

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:57 PM

I actually think that the gyst of this is that classes DO need to put together a helpful package of operating costs. As a former officer in a national class association I know that I was asked about this many times over the years and always tried to be as honest as possible (after trying to get as much information about the person asking as I could).

 

Look at it this way: you want people to have as nice an experience sailing in your class as is possible. If they fully understand the costs going in they are much less likely to buy a boat they can't afford, a boat that will most likely spend it's days on the trailer for lack of the owner being able to afford to support it. Some classes already do this. The UK 6mR class has an article up about the cost of ownership. I have seen several local fleets, like the IOD fleet in San Francisco, who also offer advise like this, and of course, almost every class out there has an open forum where you can ask questions if you'd like.

 

Pros versus no pros has never bothered me very much. I always tried to learn what I could from them, and I have never had that burning drive that I either had to win or I wasn't going to play. But honestly, I think that this topic is a whole lot more than whether or not pros can sail with you. It's about attracting new ownership that will participate.

 

jmo RD



#88 CruiserJim

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:44 PM

If anyone can work out the cost per hour of fun on a boat an accountant can.

 

A while back The first time I met one of my dock neighbours and found out he was an accountant I sniggered and laughed, then said "and you own a boat?"  "It cost's what it costs, this is my hobby" or something to that effect was the answer, If it's good enough for him its good enough for me I reckon.

 

 

When I told an accountant friend I was thinking of buying a boat, he said "if it flies, floats or f&*ks - rent it."



#89 frostbit

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:50 PM

Operating and winning are not the same thing.
My cost to *run* a J-70.
Buy the boat for x$.
Launch in Weems Creek and keep at mother's house = free.
Sails = came with the boat. If they haven't shredded to pieces - they're good ;)
Beer and snacks = $20-$30 per race to get a couple of buddies out with me.
Outboard gas = maybe $30/year.
So if I do 20 races per year, that comes out to a marginal cost of less than $40 per race.
Would that WIN a race or even get in the top 50%? Different cost there.


Assuming you have some skills and a good crew, I think that would absolutely get you to the top 50% and maybe better. Buy a second set of sails when the first ones start to age and use the old ones for everything except champion regattas and you get to the top third. Two years with the same good crew and a commitment to learn, gets you right in the top 10. Sounds like a great time.

#90 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

snapback.png

 


Operating and winning are not the same thing.
My cost to *run* a J-70.
Buy the boat for x$.
Launch in Weems Creek and keep at mother's house = free.
Sails = came with the boat. If they haven't shredded to pieces - they're good ;)
Beer and snacks = $20-$30 per race to get a couple of buddies out with me.
Outboard gas = maybe $30/year.
So if I do 20 races per year, that comes out to a marginal cost of less than $40 per race.
Would that WIN a race or even get in the top 50%? Different cost there.



#91 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

Note there is no budget in there to go anyplace outside of motoring range of Weems Creek and that "skills" thing may need some looking into...................



#92 frostbit

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:39 PM

Note there is no budget in there to go anyplace outside of motoring range of Weems Creek and that "skills" thing may need some looking into...................


With the right crew (willing and able to chip in on travel, food and shelter), traveling doesn't have to break the bank.

#93 roadracer

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:56 PM

Dude, this guy isn't embarrassed at all, what are you talking about? He's super proud of his victory and not at all concerned that he hired people to crew. I assume most of those names are known sailors. They don't put an asterisk on your trophy!

 

This interview with the 'winner' of the Annapolis NOODs sums up the situation in classes with Pros.

 

Priceless - Dave Reed really does a good job keeping a straight face.  So Embarassing for the owner.

 



#94 clamslapper

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:10 PM

Before there were pros there were the guys that got rid of perfectly good 3-5 year old sails and tried to out-$$$ the competition and then some people got sails EVERY YEAR :o

I remember when there was basically no such thing as dry-sailing a boat that wasn't something like a 420 too.

 

 

Oh, well, you probably know this, but it goes further than that with fleets like J24s (I assume it will be similar in J70s): guys **pre-sell** brand new suits of sails that they buy, and advertise them as used for 2-3 regattas.  They have sold them long before they drive to the sail loft and purchase them.  It actually isn't as crazy as it sounds, because while Quantum/North etc. charge full rack rate for Joe Schmoes like you and me, if you buy sails several times a year I am told they are waaaaay cheaper.  So you basically arrange a futures contract with the Joe Schmoe; it's just that instead of porkbellies or frozen orange juice, the commodity is a set of J24 sails.  It's a very widespread practice.



#95 Hobie Dog

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:09 PM

It is the Pros in the J/70 which make it so expensive to operate.  Shocking really $60k-$100k. 

 

 

Other Sportboats (Viper 640, Ultimate 20, and Vx One) do not appear to have the Pro component and therefore the costs to operate should be dramatically different. 

 

Pros also hurt the vibe of regattas - it is work for them and it shows at the parties. 

Good point about the parties!

 

Not sure why the attraction to the J/70 and all the Pros but we all know J does a great job at marketing a class.

 

Out of the 3 other boats you mentioned, personally it is the least desirable to me and I would buy any of the other 3 before the J. I think part of the appeal for the J is the Viper and VX are WAY too athletic for a lot of the owners of the J/70. No place to “hide” the owner and still win on a 2 person boat!

 

And one more point. Sailing is a weird sport in that as a “Professional” there is no money to be won for actually winning! And unlike all of the major sports sailing has pros competing with amateurs. Certainly don’t see that in baseball for example. The only other sport that I can think of that the average Dude can play with the pros on the same field at the same time is running. But the difference is average rich runner guy cannot buy a pro to carry him around the race course to win. It’s a sport that is all on your own.

 

And has been said if you don’t have the bank roll to play in class with pros then find a class that does not have them, race PHRF or race dinghies. Never will hear at a Laser regatta that so and so won only because they had the rock stars on board! :lol:



#96 Hobie Dog

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:12 PM

I think it really comes down to Chairman Mao's dictum: give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

No you have it wrong Clam!

 

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day. :D



#97 SA Lurker

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:40 PM

I think it really comes down to Chairman Mao's dictum: give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

 

Lao Tzu, perhaps.  Not Mao.



#98 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:14 PM

Give a man a fish and you can kill him and take it back if he displays any Bourgeoisie ideas.

Mao



#99 hard aground

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

I think it really comes down to Chairman Mao's dictum: give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

Unfortunately he also said if you make a fire for a cold man he will be warm for an hour, if you set him on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.



#100 clamslapper

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:27 AM

I think it really comes down to Chairman Mao's dictum: give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

 

Lao Tzu, perhaps.  Not Mao.


I think you're right that it was Lao Tzu.  My bad.






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