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#1 Editor

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:51 PM

There is no way these sheeting angles are right. Look at the return on that jib leech and look how far to weather the boom is cranked. No way! Tell us what you think from this telltale shot by Jesus Renedo at Palmavela.

 

 

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#2 Trent

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:01 PM

"I knew there was a sandbar somewhere around here!"

 

 

"Come on boys, let's roll tack this mother."



#3 lartaunt

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:07 PM

Unless they are in hyper-point mode to pinch somebody off, I would have to agree, this looks slow and is inducing the excessive heal that the hard hiking crew is failing to flatten out.



#4 MisterMoon

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:14 PM

"This is how you sail directly to windward. Tacking is for pussies!"



#5 NoStrings

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:15 PM

"I don't know guys, she feels kind of sluggish"...I love seeing shit like this...especially when some self satisfied "rockstar" has done it.

#6 notallthere

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:15 PM

All lift is drag, but not all drag is lift...



#7 JMOD

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:25 PM

hyperpointing.... they probably have the wrong polars programmed



#8 Delta Blues

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:26 PM

Editor, you simply can't afford, or understand a Wally.



#9 longy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:29 PM

  Looks like jib is too full, esp down low, with hooked leach. Hence main has to be over-trimmed down low (we can't see much) to fill it. I'd suspect there's a lot of twist in both sails.



#10 maxfunner

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:35 PM

Light air sailing on modern racers.

Keel doesn't provide lift because you're not moving fast enough, so you need to increase the angle of attack on the keel to create some lift.

Baggy jib with a lot of twist, same on the main; boom way up and lots of twist.

Same trim style on a Farr 40 in light airs for example.

 

It's not pretty, but otherwise the keel won't give any lift and you'll get nowhere.



#11 mrming

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:39 PM

Light air sailing on modern racers.
Keel doesn't provide lift because you're not moving fast enough, so you need to increase the angle of attack on the keel to create some lift.
Baggy jib with a lot of twist, same on the main; boom way up and lots of twist.
Same trim style on a Farr 40 in light airs for example.
 
It's not pretty, but otherwise the keel won't give any lift and you'll get nowhere.


It doesn't look like light air with that angle of heel and bodies on the rail...

#12 Great Red Shark

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:42 PM

That jib-leech looks wicked hooked-closed to me,  but then what do I know.

 

But the boats I've sailed with continuous athwartships tracks sure wouldn't let you sail with that angle of attack for long.



#13 BronzeWing

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:47 PM

Having seen a Team NZ crew do something similar in an Ecthells in very light winds, it can work. Blade the jib, bring the traveller up over center and twist the main bigtime. As the boat starts to move, shape is slowly introduced to the jib and the twist is taken out at the same rate the traveller is eased. Awesome to watch. So ugly yes but it works in the right conditions.



#14 TimFordi550#87

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:47 PM

Jeebus criced, it's a 500th of a second in time! Maybe they were pinching up to a mark. 

 

Nothing to see here, folks, move on.



#15 Lewdicrous Speed

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:50 PM

jib's just overtrimmed, or blown out,  lead position looks ok might be a touch forward



#16 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:51 PM

You can forgive it for being ugly if it's going fast...blowing up the numbers on the mast instruments it looks like they're pulling 9.53 knots uphill at 41TWA in 10.3 knots TWS...not exactly shabby numbers in my book.



#17 mleitch

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:52 PM

I'd assume that rather than racing, they're posing for a cool picture..... Hopefully the sponsors aren't sailors ;)



#18 mcsailor0303

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:56 PM

Ultra point mode???



#19 jrenedo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:04 PM

Hi , if that helps,  it has been taken right after the start , the made the pin end of the line, and where pretty clear from the other boats, wind speed was around 8 knots .

A big right swift minutes later cost them the race. And there is a lot of talent on board that boat, with plenty of guys from Telefónica Volvo and Adan Minoprio on the aft guard 



#20 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:04 PM

Any one here raced on a boat that big?

 

I thought not.

 

We need to see the rest of the rig - not just the lower 5%.



#21 DiasDePlaya

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:14 PM

The pro's are doing that long time ago.



#22 Grinder

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:15 PM

What's it rate?



#23 Vee

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

Any one here raced on a boat that big?

 

I thought not.

 

We need to see the rest of the rig - not just the lower 5%.

+1000.

 

What does the twist look like.



#24 JRC808

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:26 PM

What can I say. Sometimes I have to sandbag too, when I get that far ahead of the competition. It helps me with my rating too.
Lol.

Maybe some crazy wind shear shit? the tops are really open? It's a bit excessive nonetheless.

#25 Editor

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:42 PM

 

yeah, they were awesome. look at what all that talent got them. i know, maybe they didn't have the boom pulled far enough to weather....



#26 full circle

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:49 PM

oh...it's a baltic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i'll get my coat.



#27 Geronimo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:11 PM

Definitely not in go mode here. I noticed this before I even clicked the link on Facebook. The lead needs to be dropped back and the traveler dropped down. Nuff said.

#28 RustySkiff

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:25 PM

Pull everything on until it's tighter than everything else.



#29 Terrafirma

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:54 PM

Certainly looks like they have way to much heel to justify that mode so perhaps a gust hit and they were all napping..?



#30 Pete M

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:55 PM

you guys are funny

#31 Grinder

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:14 PM

Funny how? Like a clown? Do we amuse you?

#32 Beachcomber

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:21 PM

Oh my gawd!  Those morans must be doing something wrong because I would never sheet the sails so hard on my 6 knot shitbox!

 

uhhhm...not so fast.

 

The more efficient the rig, the harder you can sheet the sails.



#33 PKGB

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:26 PM

...good comparison...
Just saying...

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#34 sheeting yarns

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:46 PM

PKGB's trim image comparing lower jib leech return looks like a safer VMG trim. One problem with the numbers off the instruments is that the leeway is a calculation rather than a precise measurement. So the numbers always look better for some time with super tight trim but the result of this trim over time is a much higher leeway. So the boat will look right and feel pretty good but will have plenty of sideways slip with the associated high drag that comes along with it. That being said, some boats (like TP52's) are designed with a keel performance bucket that works best with rather high (5-6 degree) leeway angles so if you are pretty confident in your actual leeway numbers, the optimum trim in flat water can be pretty firm.

It is not unusual in many high-performance yachts to have the mainsail boom quite a bit to windward but you need to be spot-on with the twist and lower mainsail depth to avoid excessive leeway and high rudder angles.



#35 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:48 PM

I dunno. I think needs another wheel in the middle.



#36 V_One

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:58 PM

The foot looks really tight. If the car was too far forward the foot would be much deeper. Between the tack and clew it's virtually straight.
Tight foot line maybe.... take it off the winch!
Just sayin.

#37 B.Wilkinson

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:12 AM

Just thinking out loud..... If you have better ideas, buy your own boat that big and do as you wish.... Just sayin'

#38 nuttyrave

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:45 AM

whoever mentioned Italian boats doesn't know their Finnish yards.

Has to do with the relative low pressure leeward of that forward 3di airfoil. It is not giving habitual lift to the main -> Little venturi effect benefit. that's my call.

I bet the captain knows...



#39 Gunny

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:14 AM

Hey, that's what's where the sailmaker put the stickers on the jib track and the traveler before he had to jump off and go to the bar.

#40 onedesignj80

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:06 AM

This is the Retro look from North Sails. Does anyone remember the " Frisbee Main " If I remember correctly that was back in the very late 70's or very early 80's......

#41 Flatbag

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:26 AM

To quote the late Eric Strain, a well known and very succesful Sydney Dragon sailor:

 

"One day there will be an owner with lots of money... and ability!"

 

That guy aint it!



#42 Mudz

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:41 AM

That's normal. The direction they are travelling through the water is probably about 8-10 degrees to the centreline of the boat.



#43 skew

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:50 AM

They have VSPARS.  No matter how wrong it looks, it must be right!



#44 ipexnet

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:00 AM

Light air sailing on modern racers.

Keel doesn't provide lift because you're not moving fast enough, so you need to increase the angle of attack on the keel to create some lift.

Baggy jib with a lot of twist, same on the main; boom way up and lots of twist.

Same trim style on a Farr 40 in light airs for example.

 

It's not pretty, but otherwise the keel won't give any lift and you'll get nowhere.

Spot on MAX, I was going to say the same thing. 

but the jib does look a little tight the lower main pocket must be impacted. Gotta be a big rig

the loose luff on the main is the telling sign in all this, you need to be high on traveller to stop a stall. 

Would be hard pressed to see  a farr40 so high



#45 ABC

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:36 AM

Basic rule of thumb when trimming sails upwind: "pull it in till the boat stops - then let it out a little".  Maybe they have not gotten to the let it out a little part yet.

 

Who's the pro on the boat?  Maybe they can give us insight on trimming these new fangled sails that have battens and don't have to wrap around the spreaders.



#46 Drocca

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:44 AM

Painful to look at on such a beautiful boat. It would be nice to see a full view of the sails. I'm sure that broader lense wouldn't look any prettier.

#47 kiwichas

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:29 AM

Could be a bit of wind sheer



#48 Jaja

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:51 AM

I have no problem with high traveler and loads of twist as suggested by other posters but it's clearly too tight. In eight knot i may go with an even higher traveler but far less sheet.



#49 Lorrie Clarkeson

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:10 AM

Nice vid and the winners sails http://blog.gaastrap...ir-peter-ogden/ have a pause on the numbers in the middle of the vid. Just because you paid lots for something doesn't mean it's any good.



#50 polarbear

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:25 PM

  I'm thinking Farr 40 trim in some conditions.  Maybe the picture exaggerates the effect somewhat.  The other thing we don't know are the numbers they are seeing.  If you are high and fast, who cares if the sails look like shit ;)  



#51 ChristianSch

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:10 PM



#52 Remodel

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

Way.



#53 Chad Covert

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:41 PM

Not seeing anyone in font of them, so that's a good sign.

 

J24 light to mid air, same thing... opens the slot up. It is something you can't understand until you do it and realize it's fast. 



#54 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:53 PM

Couple years ago someone posted a video of boat on a windy ass day in SFO Bay sailing for miles with the main that far, or even farther, to weather. They were outpointing and overtaking and passing everything around.  In some conditions that can work quite well.  (Never could make it pay on my boat...)

 

Agree that you need to see the rest of the rig. Looks like only the bottom few feet of that main are above centerline. There is a hell of a lot of sail area farther up...



#55 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:06 PM

Light Air, Flat water

 

Jib in tight

Traveller to weather with sheet off.

 

Point high

Main has power.

 

There are times it works.

I've done in the 2.4mR in light air, in Chicago and it works in the right condition.

 

If you get out of your comfort zone, travel and do regattas in different geographical areas, you will learn many many new techniques.

It is your job to choose which technique works at the time.



#56 robmo01

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:33 PM

Everthing is too freekin' flat for the conditions, the boat is heeling way too much, if they would put more curvature in both the main and jib, they'd take heel off the boat and increase speed, but what the hell, have a beah and enjoy the sunshine. 



#57 bruno

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:14 AM

upper leech in 2 worlds? some sag there, why no conniption fit?



#58 titop

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:58 AM

Stop theorizing ! Think of the two sails as one, if you look on the photos the n°1 is very full in front so plenty of drive forward. And only testing and speed could tell...



#59 titop

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:07 AM

On mini maxi when a n°1 is 4° off and mainsail 11° upwind . If you get n°1 not coming back it would be to flat lack of power. if the picture was taken in line off the boom the sails would probably look alright.

So you can go about 10 degrees higher as if the sails were in line as long as the keel cope with an add of drag. So it is between going high and slow and only practice can tell how much is too much.



#60 crusingsailor

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:20 PM

"This is how you sail directly to windward. Tacking is for pussies!"

+1



#61 blackjenner

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:20 PM

There is no way these sheeting angles are right. Look at the return on that jib leech and look how far to weather the boom is cranked. No way! Tell us what you think from this telltale shot by Jesus Renedo at Palmavela.

 

Look closely at that picture again.

 

Here are your clues.

 

1) look at the distance between the deck winches and the pushpit railing.  It's almost twice on port as on starboard.

2) you can see more of the inside of the hull on the starboard side than the port side.

3) the pushpit is off center from the mast by a significant amount; one third on port side and two thirds on starboard.

 

We are not looking directly down the center line of that boat.  We are slightly port of the center line. I'm guessing around 10 degrees. 



#62 Widget-CYC

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:53 AM

And they thought the tiller was the only e-brake on a boat....

PKGB's trim image comparing lower jib leech return looks like a safer VMG trim. One problem with the numbers off the instruments is that the leeway is a calculation rather than a precise measurement. So the numbers always look better for some time with super tight trim but the result of this trim over time is a much higher leeway. So the boat will look right and feel pretty good but will have plenty of sideways slip with the associated high drag that comes along with it. That being said, some boats (like TP52's) are designed with a keel performance bucket that works best with rather high (5-6 degree) leeway angles so if you are pretty confident in your actual leeway numbers, the optimum trim in flat water can be pretty firm.
It is not unusual in many high-performance yachts to have the mainsail boom quite a bit to windward but you need to be spot-on with the twist and lower mainsail depth to avoid excessive leeway and high rudder angles.



#63 RobG

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:26 PM

3) the pushpit is off center from the mast by a significant amount; one third on port side and two thirds on starboard.

 

We are not looking directly down the center line of that boat.  We are slightly port of the center line. I'm guessing around 10 degrees. 

 Yes, the photo is taken from slightly to port, but not much. The boom is well to starboard of the centre of the pushpit, the traveller is further across.

 

But I'm not going to say they have it wrong, we can't see the rest if the rig.



#64 Trickypig

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:46 PM

Possibly they've gone into jamming mode off the start. Maybe they've got a faster boat on their hip they want to force off.

 

Photo of boat in better trim... or perhaps they are too low in the groove! ;)

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#65 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:34 PM

Photo of boat in better trim... or perhaps they are too low in the groove! ;)

And much winder / rougher conditions.






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