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13-Year-Old Boy Shoots 6-Year-Old Sister In Florida


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#1 BIAM

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:53 PM

more publicity to drive more nutjobs to buy more guns....

 

The shooting comes less than a week after a 5-year-old boy in Kentucky shot his 2-year-old sister dead with a gun he had received as a gift from his grandmother.

 

http://www.businessi...ear-olds-2013-5



#2 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:58 PM

more publicity to drive more nutjobs to buy more guns....

 

The shooting comes less than a week after a 5-year-old boy in Kentucky shot his 2-year-old sister dead with a gun he had received as a gift from his grandmother.

 

http://www.businessi...ear-olds-2013-5

How many kids drowned in swimming pools in that same time frame?



#3 kmccabe

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:08 PM

BIAM is just a sock for someone else. 



#4 BIAM

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:10 PM

more publicity to drive more nutjobs to buy more guns....

 

The shooting comes less than a week after a 5-year-old boy in Kentucky shot his 2-year-old sister dead with a gun he had received as a gift from his grandmother.

 

http://www.businessi...ear-olds-2013-5

How many kids drowned in swimming pools in that same time frame?

You mean, how many 13 year olds accidentally held their little sister underwater?

 

I think the answer is zero.



#5 BIAM

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

BIAM is just a sock for someone else. 

how's CT life, after the mass shooting?  Selling lots of guns?  nice......everyone much safer now..



#6 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

BIAM is just a sock for someone else. 

 

Yeah, and I can't help but fall for the bait in these stupid threads. The reality of course is that there are far more accidental swimming pool deaths than accidental firearm deaths. Having said that someone will come along and talk about total firearm deaths, or suicides. Then someone will accuse the NRA of killing children.



#7 TheFlash

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:18 PM

The NRA doesn't kill children. Their positions enable the death of many.



#8 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:23 PM

The NRA doesn't kill children. Their positions enable the death of many.

 

There you go. I knew I could count on you. Now someone just needs to mention pearl clutching and unicorns, and we can close the thread.



#9 BIAM

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:45 PM

BIAM is just a sock for someone else. 

 

Yeah, and I can't help but fall for the bait in these stupid threads. The reality of course is that there are far more accidental swimming pool deaths than accidental firearm deaths. Having said that someone will come along and talk about total firearm deaths, or suicides. Then someone will accuse the NRA of killing children.

There are far more firearm deaths.....(over 30,000 people died in the US last year from firearms)

 

but, why let the facts get in the way....



#10 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:55 PM

 

BIAM is just a sock for someone else. 

 

Yeah, and I can't help but fall for the bait in these stupid threads. The reality of course is that there are far more accidental swimming pool deaths than accidental firearm deaths. Having said that someone will come along and talk about total firearm deaths, or suicides. Then someone will accuse the NRA of killing children.

There are far more firearm deaths.....(over 30,000 people died in the US last year from firearms)

 

but, why let the facts get in the way....

 

Thanks for being predictable. I was off on my order.



#11 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:58 PM

As to the firearms vs. swimming pool stats...

 

What is the annual number (roughly) of intentional and accidental deaths by firearm?  Is this accurate?

 

What is the annual number (roughly) of intentional and accidental deaths by swimming pool?  Is this accurate?



#12 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:16 PM

As to the firearms vs. swimming pool stats...

 

What is the annual number (roughly) of intentional and accidental deaths by firearm?  Is this accurate?

 

What is the annual number (roughly) of intentional and accidental deaths by swimming pool?  Is this accurate?

 

Not that I can see. The first link seems to be homicide only data. If you are trying to make the case that there are more total deaths by firearm, then I agree. But comparing accidental and intentional deaths and trying to come up with a policy out of the comparison is an exercise in futility. You can't stop people from committing murder by putting a warning label on a gun, and you can't stop people being reckless and careless with a background check. Background checks don't stop dumb parents, and warning labels don't stop murder. I would just like to see one discussion not turn into obfuscation escalation central.



#13 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:20 PM

Just trying to find data, not trying to make a case.  The data says what it says.  



#14 Olsonist

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:28 PM

All firearm deaths

  • Number of deaths: 31,672

Firearm homicides

  • Number of deaths: 11,078

Drownings

  • Number of drownings: 3300

 

31,672 - 11,078 = 20,594 accidental firearms deaths per year vs 3300 overall drownings.

Swimming pool drownings would be less than 3300.

 

20,594 > 3300. Anything else, Bright Eyes?



#15 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:32 PM

All firearm deaths

  • Number of deaths: 31,672

Firearm homicides

  • Number of deaths: 11,078

Drownings

  • Number of drownings: 3300

 

31,672 - 11,078 = 20,594 accidental firearms deaths per year vs 3300 overall drownings.

Swimming pool drownings would be less than 3300.

 

20,594 > 3300. Anything else, Bright Eyes?

 

http://www.cdc.gov/n...ats/suicide.htm

 

Firearm suicides
  • Number of deaths: 19,392

 

Suicides count as accidental now? FFS, could you try being honest for one day?



#16 R Booth

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:03 PM

All firearm deaths

  • Number of deaths: 31,672

Firearm homicides

  • Number of deaths: 11,078

Drownings

  • Number of drownings: 3300

 

31,672 - 11,078 = 20,594 accidental firearms deaths per year vs 3300 overall drownings.

Swimming pool drownings would be less than 3300.

 

20,594 > 3300. Anything else, Bright Eyes?

 

http://www.cdc.gov/n...ats/suicide.htm

 

Firearm suicides
  • Number of deaths: 19,392

 

Suicides count as accidental now? FFS, could you try being honest for one day?

 

 

 

:lol:....



#17 Olsonist

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:24 PM

Fine, you got me there.

 

From the CDC page, If you want to look at just kids (age 14 or less) there were 513 + 252 = 765 total fatal drownings without specifiying location. There were (403+683+1,982+347+1,635+813)=5863 fatal drownings which is different from the 3380 stat mentioned earlier in the article; dunno why. Of those 5863, only 683 happened in swimming pools. So that was at a rate of about 11%.

 

Assuming that 11% is the same for children—not unreasonable but still an assumption—then 11% of 765 is about 85 children per year or every 4.5 days vs every 3 days for guns.



#18 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:27 PM

So it would appear to be three inquiries.  

 

1.  How many people commit suicide each year by firearm vs. swimming pool.

2.  How many people intentionally kill other people each year by firearm vs. swiming pool.

3.  How many people die each year in accidents involving firearms vs. swimming pools.  

 

In order to have complete information in order to reach an informed conclusion about the relative dangers, don't we need to have all of those numbers?  The numbers are what they are.  



#19 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:35 PM

So it would appear to be three inquiries.  

 

1.  How many people commit suicide each year by firearm vs. swimming pool.

2.  How many people intentionally kill other people each year by firearm vs. swiming pool.

3.  How many people die each year in accidents involving firearms vs. swimming pools.  

 

In order to have complete information in order to reach an informed conclusion about the relative dangers, don't we need to have all of those numbers?  The numbers are what they are.  

 

Sure. I am not sure what it will accomplish, but why not. Is there a reason we want to look at suicides and murders by swimming pool? If someone is posting about an epidemic of accidental firearm deaths, I think talking about other more prevalent forms of preventable accidents seems relevant. I fail to see where anyone is saying that swimming pool murders and suicides need to be addressed, or why firearm murders are at all relevant to firearm accidents. They are two different things.



#20 HardOnWind

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:54 PM

more publicity to drive more nutjobs to buy more guns....

 

The shooting comes less than a week after a 5-year-old boy in Kentucky shot his 2-year-old sister dead with a gun he had received as a gift from his grandmother.

 

http://www.businessi...ear-olds-2013-5

How many kids drowned in swimming pools in that same time frame?

From the CDC:

 

GUNS:

 

Accidental discharge 851
Suicide 19,766
Homicide 11,101
Undetermined Intent 222 
 
Total: At least 31940 people died from gun injuries in 2011. 
 
WATER:
From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal drownings annually in the United States. 
 
That is nearly a ten to one ratio.


#21 TheFlash

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:01 PM

The difference is, swimming pools are controlled and a hellofa lot safer than they were when I was a kid.  Guns, I would say, have gone the other way.



#22 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:07 PM

So it would appear to be three inquiries.  

 

1.  How many people commit suicide each year by firearm vs. swimming pool.

2.  How many people intentionally kill other people each year by firearm vs. swiming pool.

3.  How many people die each year in accidents involving firearms vs. swimming pools.  

 

In order to have complete information in order to reach an informed conclusion about the relative dangers, don't we need to have all of those numbers?  The numbers are what they are.  

 

Sure. I am not sure what it will accomplish, but why not. Is there a reason we want to look at suicides and murders by swimming pool? If someone is posting about an epidemic of accidental firearm deaths, I think talking about other more prevalent forms of preventable accidents seems relevant. I fail to see where anyone is saying that swimming pool murders and suicides need to be addressed, or why firearm murders are at all relevant to firearm accidents. They are two different things.

Only look at those categories so that we are doing apples to apples comparisons.  If the result is "0", so be it.  Hell, that woman in Texas (I think, if I'm wrong, don't shoot me, Texans), drowned her kids in a damn bath tub.  It happens.  

 

Or just lump em all together and see how many dead bodies get shipped to the morgue from each instrumentality.  



#23 HardOnWind

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:08 PM

The difference is, swimming pools are controlled and a hellofa lot safer than they were when I was a kid.  Guns, I would say, have gone the other way.

That should be a no-brainer however there are those who still don't get it.



#24 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:08 PM

The difference is, swimming pools are controlled and a hellofa lot safer than they were when I was a kid.  Guns, I would say, have gone the other way.

 

As long as we are still talking about comparing apples to apples, or accidents to accidents, you are wrong. A good deal of accidental deaths used to come in the form of hunting accidents, and those have been reduced dramatically due to better education, and required hunter education. Additionally, guns themselves are safer. Newer designs will not fire accidentally if dropped, someone must pull the trigger for it to fire.



#25 puffyjman

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:10 PM

Since we are lumping all firearm deaths ie: pistols, rifles, and shotguns into one group I'm courios as to how many total drownings there are ie: pools, 5 galbuckets, bathtubs, boat, and beach. How many are from bridge jumps? Lets go apples to apples.

#26 LenP

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:10 PM

 

So it would appear to be three inquiries.  

 

1.  How many people commit suicide each year by firearm vs. swimming pool.

2.  How many people intentionally kill other people each year by firearm vs. swiming pool.

3.  How many people die each year in accidents involving firearms vs. swimming pools.  

 

In order to have complete information in order to reach an informed conclusion about the relative dangers, don't we need to have all of those numbers?  The numbers are what they are.  

 

Sure. I am not sure what it will accomplish, but why not. Is there a reason we want to look at suicides and murders by swimming pool? If someone is posting about an epidemic of accidental firearm deaths, I think talking about other more prevalent forms of preventable accidents seems relevant. I fail to see where anyone is saying that swimming pool murders and suicides need to be addressed, or why firearm murders are at all relevant to firearm accidents. They are two different things.

Only look at those categories so that we are doing apples to apples comparisons.  If the result is "0", so be it.  Hell, that woman in Texas (I think, if I'm wrong, don't shoot me, Texans), drowned her kids in a damn bath tub.  It happens.  

 

Or just lump em all together and see how many dead bodies get shipped to the morgue from each instrumentality.  

 

I agree, or at least I think I do. Been a long day, and I was on site at a client in Philly which never helps. Back to the mountains now.



#27 Olsonist

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:14 PM

Since we are lumping all firearm deaths ie: pistols, rifles, and shotguns into one group I'm courios as to how many total drownings there are ie: pools, 5 galbuckets, bathtubs, boat, and beach. How many are from bridge jumps? Lets go apples to apples.

 

That was covered in the CDC report.



#28 HardOnWind

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:14 PM

Since we are lumping all firearm deaths ie: pistols, rifles, and shotguns into one group I'm courios as to how many total drownings there are ie: pools, 5 galbuckets, bathtubs, boat, and beach. How many are from bridge jumps? Lets go apples to apples.

Don't get paralysis from analysis. Here are the basic numbers:

 

 

From the CDC:

 

GUNS:

 

Accidental discharge 851
Suicide 19,766
Homicide 11,101
Undetermined Intent 222 
 
Total: At least 31940 people died from gun injuries in 2011. 
 
WATER:
From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal drownings annually in the United States. 
 
That is nearly a ten to one ratio.


#29 R Booth

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:52 PM

Since we are lumping all firearm deaths ie: pistols, rifles, and shotguns into one group I'm courios as to how many total drownings there are ie: pools, 5 galbuckets, bathtubs, boat, and beach. How many are from bridge jumps? Lets go apples to apples.

Don't get paralysis from analysis. Here are the basic numbers:

 

 

From the CDC:

 

GUNS:

 

Accidental discharge 851
Suicide 19,766
Homicide 11,101
Undetermined Intent 222 
 
Total: At least 31940 people died from gun injuries in 2011. 
 
WATER:
From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal drownings annually in the United States. 
 
That is nearly a ten to one ratio.

 

 

The suicides and the lawful shootings of bad guys by legal gun owners and law enforcement have absolutely ZERO to do with 'gun violence' stats.

 

But you knew that, dintcha.....



#30 TornadoCAN99

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:24 PM

Since we are lumping all firearm deaths ie: pistols, rifles, and shotguns into one group I'm courios as to how many total drownings there are ie: pools, 5 galbuckets, bathtubs, boat, and beach. How many are from bridge jumps? Lets go apples to apples.

Don't get paralysis from analysis. Here are the basic numbers:

 

 

From the CDC:

 

GUNS:

 

Accidental discharge 851
Suicide 19,766
Homicide 11,101
Undetermined Intent 222 
 
Total: At least 31940 people died from gun injuries in 2011. 
 
WATER:
From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal drownings annually in the United States. 
 
That is nearly a ten to one ratio.

Also, you're not taking into account how many people go swimming/boating/take baths (didn't Whitney Houston die from drowning in her tub after passing our from drugs?) etc vs how many are exposed to firearms.  Would be an interesting comparison to make.



#31 HardOnWind

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:31 PM

 

Since we are lumping all firearm deaths ie: pistols, rifles, and shotguns into one group I'm courios as to how many total drownings there are ie: pools, 5 galbuckets, bathtubs, boat, and beach. How many are from bridge jumps? Lets go apples to apples.

Don't get paralysis from analysis. Here are the basic numbers:

 

 

From the CDC:

 

GUNS:

 

Accidental discharge 851
Suicide 19,766
Homicide 11,101
Undetermined Intent 222 
 
Total: At least 31940 people died from gun injuries in 2011. 
 
WATER:
From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal drownings annually in the United States. 
 
That is nearly a ten to one ratio.

 

 

The suicides and the lawful shootings of bad guys by legal gun owners and law enforcement have absolutely ZERO to do with 'gun violence' stats.

 

But you knew that, dintcha.....

You're allowed to take those out but then we need to take out from the swimming deaths the suicides, people who hit their head before they fell in and those too foolish to have made it in life anyway. Could be a big percentage. But now we're quibbling.  



#32 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:58 PM

More smoke & mirrors and obfuscation by the fuckwit gun lovers to distract from the main issue. Most of us have nothing but contempt for you poor stupid fuckwits & your guns.

 

Kids getting shot because guns are so readily available.  Get rid of them! Life is more precious than guns.



#33 BIAM

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:00 PM

So, gun nutters are reduced to the argument that swimming pools are more dangerous than guns...

 

nice.



#34 BIAM

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:02 PM

Honestly, its enough to make you hope the gun nutters all turn on each other with their assault rifles....the world will be better off..

 

it will happen...they are fucking crazy people.



#35 B.J. Porter

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:35 PM

The difference is, swimming pools are controlled and a hellofa lot safer than they were when I was a kid.  Guns, I would say, have gone the other way.

 

Jayzus no kidding.  Some pyscho I rented my guest house to complained to minimum housing about some trivial stuff...they SAW my pool in the back yard (fenced in, not included with guest house or attached) and cited me for several violations I had to fix including standing water on the top and a pool cover that had slipped into the water...and they didn't like my pad lock.

 

Go figure.



#36 HardOnWind

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:37 PM

The difference is, swimming pools are controlled and a hellofa lot safer than they were when I was a kid.  Guns, I would say, have gone the other way.

 

Jayzus no kidding.  Some pyscho I rented my guest house to complained to minimum housing about some trivial stuff...they SAW my pool in the back yard (fenced in, not included with guest house or attached) and cited me for several violations I had to fix including standing water on the top and a pool cover that had slipped into the water...and they didn't like my pad lock.

 

Go figure.

So now we're going to hear about over-regulation?



#37 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:12 AM

So, gun nutters are reduced to the argument that swimming pools are more dangerous than guns...

 

nice.

Its in their daily talking points dump from the NRA.  When kids kill kids with guns, deflect to swimming pools.

 

No law was broken here.  Move along.  Its just an accident.  Like a tree limb falling into a pool and hitting a kid on a pool toy.

 

When you have guns around kids, shit happens.  Get over it.



#38 another 505 sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:35 AM

So, gun nutters are reduced to the argument that swimming pools are more dangerous than guns...
 
nice.


And failing at it

#39 LenP

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:45 AM

So, gun nutters are reduced to the argument that swimming pools are more dangerous than guns...
 
nice.


And failing at it

Are you talking about murder, suicide, or accidents? If murders, then guns are much more dangerous as a murder weapon. If you are talking accidents, the more people die in swimming pool accidents than gun accidents. Or are you going to insist on having an intellectually dishonest conversation?

#40 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:52 AM

when a 13 year old drowns his 6 year old sister in a pool and its called an accident, we can talk.



#41 LenP

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:58 AM

when a 13 year old drowns his 6 year old sister in a pool and its called an accident, we can talk.


Still trying to get me to call you names, huh?

#42 another 505 sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:59 AM

So, gun nutters are reduced to the argument that swimming pools are more dangerous than guns...
 
nice.


And failing at it

Are you talking about murder, suicide, or accidents? If murders, then guns are much more dangerous as a murder weapon. If you are talking accidents, the more people die in swimming pool accidents than gun accidents. Or are you going to insist on having an intellectually dishonest conversation?

As soon as you brought up swimming pools, you failed.

#43 LenP

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:10 AM

So, gun nutters are reduced to the argument that swimming pools are more dangerous than guns...
 
nice.


And failing at it

Are you talking about murder, suicide, or accidents? If murders, then guns are much more dangerous as a murder weapon. If you are talking accidents, the more people die in swimming pool accidents than gun accidents. Or are you going to insist on having an intellectually dishonest conversation?

As soon as you brought up swimming pools, you failed.

Oh, really? So we can only ever talk about guns? If we are talking about accidental deaths, it is a fail to talk about traffic accidents and swimming pool drownings? If I brought up swimming pools in response to aurora, you might have a point, but here? Not so much. If you folks expect to have any credibility, you ought to out your thinking caps on before posting, or before proposing laws. FFS some of you are supposedly smart........supposedly.

#44 squirel

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:22 AM

when a 13 year old drowns his 6 year old sister in a pool and its called an accident, we can talk.


We can all hope you'll shut the fuck up until then, can't we?

#45 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:27 AM

 

 

 

So, gun nutters are reduced to the argument that swimming pools are more dangerous than guns...
 
nice.


And failing at it

Are you talking about murder, suicide, or accidents? If murders, then guns are much more dangerous as a murder weapon. If you are talking accidents, the more people die in swimming pool accidents than gun accidents. Or are you going to insist on having an intellectually dishonest conversation?

As soon as you brought up swimming pools, you failed.

Oh, really? So we can only ever talk about guns? If we are talking about accidental deaths, it is a fail to talk about traffic accidents and swimming pool drownings? If I brought up swimming pools in response to aurora, you might have a point, but here? Not so much. If you folks expect to have any credibility, you ought to out your thinking caps on before posting, or before proposing laws. FFS some of you are supposedly smart........supposedly.

This thread began with the story of a kid being shot because their parents are so stupid they left a gun within reach. If guns weren't so readily available then many more children wouldn't die. It is nothing to do with pools or cars or anything else you use as obfuscation.

 

YOU support the proliferation of guns. YOU contribute to the kids deaths. All your smoke & mirrors will not hide that fact.



#46 Point Break

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:40 AM

http://news.yahoo.co...-194040384.html

Interesting

#47 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:50 AM

http://news.yahoo.co...-194040384.html

Interesting

 

You don't seriously believe any statistics supplied by the NRA do you? Nobody could be that stupid.

 

If you do believe it then I've got a bridge you can buy - cheap. $5000. Just send it to my bank account in Zimbabwe. No 339885433. It will be open tomorrow.



#48 R Booth

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:55 AM

http://news.yahoo.co...-194040384.html
Interesting

 
You don't seriously believe any statistics supplied by the NRA do you? Nobody could be that stupid.
 
If you do believe it then I've got a bridge you can buy - cheap. $5000. Just send it to my bank account in Zimbabwe. No 339885433. It will be open tomorrow.


Are you honestly trying to say that the FBI stats are wrong? Wow, good luck proving that one....

#49 Point Break

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:00 AM

http://news.yahoo.co...-194040384.html
Interesting

 
You don't seriously believe any statistics supplied by the NRA do you? Nobody could be that stupid.
 
If you do believe it then I've got a bridge you can buy - cheap. $5000. Just send it to my bank account in Zimbabwe. No 339885433. It will be open tomorrow.
Be sure to dismiss any information that is contrary to your opinion.

#50 Charlie Foxtrot

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:08 AM

Eddie Eagle Child Gun Safety Program

 

The NRA works hard on gun safety and gun-safing children. Successfully. 



#51 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:13 AM

The ONLY statistics that count are the names & ages on the gravestones of children that were murdered by your buddies with their guns.



#52 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:29 AM

Eddie Eagle Child Gun Safety Program
 
The NRA works hard on gun safety and gun-safing children. Successfully. 

Except in this case.

#53 Charlie Foxtrot

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:59 AM

Year over year, accidental gun death and injuries are dropping significantly.

 

You really need to take an unbiased look at the gun culture and the NRA. 



#54 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:04 AM

Mix kids and guns, and sometimes kids get shot. Shit happens. Sometimes. Get over it.

#55 R Booth

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:21 AM

The ONLY statistics that count are the names & ages on the gravestones of children that were murdered by your buddies with their guns.



Jfc, just when I thought I've already read enough stupid shit in P/A, written by equally stupid people----you come in here with the grand prze winner.

W.F.D......

#56 HardOnWind

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:24 AM

Be sure to dismiss any information that is contrary to your opinion.

"Be sure to dismiss any information that is contrary to your opinion" is equivalent to "few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions."

What that means is that if your daddy taught you that some people will need shooting, then you're alway going to want a gun around.

#57 B.J. Porter

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

 

The difference is, swimming pools are controlled and a hellofa lot safer than they were when I was a kid.  Guns, I would say, have gone the other way.

 

Jayzus no kidding.  Some pyscho I rented my guest house to complained to minimum housing about some trivial stuff...they SAW my pool in the back yard (fenced in, not included with guest house or attached) and cited me for several violations I had to fix including standing water on the top and a pool cover that had slipped into the water...and they didn't like my pad lock.

 

Go figure.

So now we're going to hear about over-regulation?

 

Not really, but it does seem my swimming pool is perhaps more regulated that some guns.

 

The argument that "Pools kill people, they're not regulated" is a specious one at best.  Anyone can get a pool, but you STILL need to meet building codes, build fences with locking gates, etc. etc.



#58 HardOnWind

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

Year over year, accidental gun death and injuries are dropping significantly.
 
You really need to take an unbiased look at the gun culture and the NRA.

I've never been worried about the accidental deaths. It's the intentional ones caused by the angry drunk with a gun.

#59 another 505 sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:31 AM


So, gun nutters are reduced to the argument that swimming pools are more dangerous than guns...
 
nice.

And failing at it
Are you talking about murder, suicide, or accidents? If murders, then guns are much more dangerous as a murder weapon. If you are talking accidents, the more people die in swimming pool accidents than gun accidents. Or are you going to insist on having an intellectually dishonest conversation?
As soon as you brought up swimming pools, you failed.
Oh, really? So we can only ever talk about guns? If we are talking about accidental deaths, it is a fail to talk about traffic accidents and swimming pool drownings? If I brought up swimming pools in response to aurora, you might have a point, but here? Not so much. If you folks expect to have any credibility, you ought to out your thinking caps on before posting, or before proposing laws. FFS some of you are supposedly smart........supposedly.
In a thread that starts with 2 articles about kids killing their siblings with guns, the first reply wants to compare swimming pool deaths.
Not gun safety. Not parenting. Not about the wisdom of marketing children's guns.
No, you want to distract from the topic by mentioning swimming pools.
Epic failure.
Keep it up though, you are entertaining.

#60 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:24 AM

The ONLY statistics that count are the names & ages on the gravestones of children that were murdered by your buddies with their guns.



Jfc, just when I thought I've already read enough stupid shit in P/A, written by equally stupid people----you come in here with the grand prze winner.

W.F.D......

You'll change your tune pretty smartly when (God forbid) one of yours is shot & killed. Fuckin' moron!



#61 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:31 AM

All firearm deaths

  • Number of deaths: 31,672

Firearm homicides

  • Number of deaths: 11,078

Drownings

  • Number of drownings: 3300

 

31,672 - 11,078 = 20,594 accidental firearms deaths per year vs 3300 overall drownings.

Swimming pool drownings would be less than 3300.

 

20,594 > 3300. Anything else, Bright Eyes?

 

Yeah, there's nothing "accidental" about suicide.  Take that number out and the accidental death by firearms are around 600.  Go to page 23 of this CDC report.

 

3300 > 600.


Suck it! 



#62 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:37 AM

So it would appear to be three inquiries.  

 

1.  How many people commit suicide each year by firearm vs. swimming pool.

2.  How many people intentionally kill other people each year by firearm vs. swiming pool.

3.  How many people die each year in accidents involving firearms vs. swimming pools.  

 

In order to have complete information in order to reach an informed conclusion about the relative dangers, don't we need to have all of those numbers?  The numbers are what they are.  

 


SOL, huge fail on your part and you're displaying uncharactoristic intellectual laziness or dishonesty.  Since the thread is about an "Accidental" shooting and using the outrage of a child 'accidentally" killed with a gun.... the topic is accidental death.  NOT intentional death.  If you want to keep this to an apples to apples discussion, we are talking accidental firearm death compared to other types of accidental death.  Accidental firearm death is significantly lower than most over accidents, including swimming pools, poisons, staircases and ladders and icy sidewalks, and vehicles. 

 

Thowing deliberate deaths into the conversation is a red herring.  Please try to keep up. 



#63 Olsonist

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:47 AM





All firearm deaths

  • Number of deaths: 31,672
Firearm homicides
  • Number of deaths: 11,078
Drownings
  • Number of drownings: 3300
 
31,672 - 11,078 = 20,594 accidental firearms deaths per year vs 3300 overall drownings.
Swimming pool drownings would be less than 3300.
 
20,594 > 3300. Anything else, Bright Eyes?
 
Yeah, there's nothing "accidental" about suicide.  Take that number out and the accidental death by firearms are around 600.  Go to page 23 of this CDC report.
 
3300 > 600.

Suck it! 
You're a little late. That was a mistaken but you seem to have misread the data as well.

This argument apparently stems from the Freakonomics book. Theirs is basically a back of the envelope calculation but I don't buy their calculation either.

http://www.freakonom...rpts/chapter-5/

They don't distinguish between drowning locations. I'll work through their sources when I can.

This is a better version from the CDC data.

From the CDC page, If you want to look at just kids (age 14 or less) there were 513 + 252 = 765 total fatal drownings without specifiying location. There were (403+683+1,982+347+1,635+813)=5863 fatal drownings which is different from the 3380 stat mentioned earlier in the article; dunno why. Of those 5863, only 683 happened in swimming pools. So that was at a rate of about 11%.
 
Assuming that 11% is the same for children, not unreasonable but still an assumption, then 11% of 765 is about 85 children per year or every 4.5 days vs every 3 days for guns.



#64 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:54 AM

Fine, you got me there.

 

From the CDC page, If you want to look at just kids (age 14 or less) there were 513 + 252 = 765 total fatal drownings without specifiying location. There were (403+683+1,982+347+1,635+813)=5863 fatal drownings which is different from the 3380 stat mentioned earlier in the article; dunno why. Of those 5863, only 683 happened in swimming pools. So that was at a rate of about 11%.

 

Assuming that 11% is the same for children—not unreasonable but still an assumption—then 11% of 765 is about 85 children per year or every 4.5 days vs every 3 days for guns.

 


See olsen, the beauty is you don't have to IMAGINE it.  The data is right here:  go to page 23.  It broken down by age:

 

Accidental drowning by Children 14 and under:  726

Accidental shooting of children under 14:  62

 

Last I checked 62 < 726

 

And that was just pools.  If we add is poison and fire and other means of completely preventable accidental death - are we REALLY sure guns are the problem here, or is it a simply a red herring excuse to be outraged about guns?  I think there should be a lot more outrage about water and fire then guns killing children.

 

Next faux outrage please.....  table for one.



#65 Olsonist

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:01 AM

Jeff, I don't know if you sail or not but there are other locations with water in them besides swimming pools. Who knew? And it even turns out that these pools aren't even the most popular place to drown. Wow. It seems that only about 11% of folks choose to drown in a pool.

The claim made is about accidental drownings in swimming pools vs accidental death by firearm for children. That isn't broken out in the CDC report but with a little but of work and some reasonable assumptions you can derive this. The Freakonomics people did a frikin lousy job of that.

#66 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:12 AM

Jeff, I don't know if you sail or not but there are other locations with water in them besides swimming pools. Who knew? And it even turns out that these pools aren't even the most popular place to drown. Wow.

The claim made is about accidental drownings in swimming pools vs accidental death by firearm for children. That isn't broken out but with a little but of work and some reasonable assumptions you can derive this. The Freakonomics people did a lousy job of that.

 

Dude!  OMG, can someone on the internet just ever fucking admit that they might be wrong???  Fine, its not all swimming pools.  If I changed it to:  "Drowning by water" would that work for your semantic pedanticism? 

 

But given that google is your friend, try this:  http://www.cdc.gov/h...-factsheet.html

 

Children: Children ages 1 to 4 have the highest drowning rates. In 2009, among children 1 to 4 years old who died from an unintentional injury, more than 30% died from drowning.1,2  Among children ages 1 to 4, most drownings occur in home swimming pools.2 Drowning is responsible for more deaths among children 1-4 than any other cause except congenital anomalies (birth defects).1 Among those 1-14, fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death behind motor vehicle crashes.1

 

So of that 726 number abover, if MOST occur in swimming pools, would you still say that the number is still above 62?



#67 Olsonist

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:17 AM

You're really not following the argument. The claim was about swimming pools. But it's late and I'll finish this tomorrow.

Freakonomics

Chapter 5

What makes a perfect parent.

The conversion of parenting from an art to a science . . . Why parenting experts like to scare parents to death . . . Which is more dangerous: a gun or a swimming pool? . . . The economics of fear . . . Obsessive parents and the nature-nurture quagmire . . . Why a good school isnt as good as you might think . . . The black-white test gap and acting white . . . Eight things that make a child do better in school and eight that dont.

#68 HardOnWind

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:26 AM

One headline you won't see is: "Man enters school and kills dozens with swimming pool".

#69 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:27 AM

You're really not following the argument. The claim was about swimming pool.

Freakonomics
 

Deflection, blah blah blah

 

Oh, I'm following it just fine.  I'm not the one deflecting and trying to change the subject.  The subject is:

 

Postion:  Outrage over a gun being used to accidentally kill a child - ergo guns are bad. 

Counter postion:  Accidental gun deaths are miniscule and insignificant compared to other forms of accidental death.  ergo guns are not the problem you would like them to be.


Stats > emotional arguments

 

Rebuttal to counter position:  Deflection and subject change to parenting, fear and poor schools.

 

Did I capture that pretty well?  I'm betting I did.  Your move, bright eyes........



#70 Olsonist

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:28 AM


more publicity to drive more nutjobs to buy more guns....
 
The shooting comes less than a week after a 5-year-old boy in Kentucky shot his 2-year-old sister dead with a gun he had received as a gift from his grandmother.
 
http://www.businessi...ear-olds-2013-5

How many kids drowned in swimming pools in that same time frame?

No Jeff, you aren't.

#71 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:29 AM

One headline you won't see is: "Man enters school and kills dozens with swimming pool".

 

Man enters school and killing dozens is not an accident.  Since the topic is accidental death with guns, your point is irrelevant.

 

Next failed argument please........



#72 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:37 AM

 


more publicity to drive more nutjobs to buy more guns....
 
The shooting comes less than a week after a 5-year-old boy in Kentucky shot his 2-year-old sister dead with a gun he had received as a gift from his grandmother.
 
http://www.businessi...ear-olds-2013-5

How many kids drowned in swimming pools in that same time frame?

No Jeff, you aren't.

 

 

Yes olsen, actually I AM

 

And furthermore, read this:  http://www.cpsc.gov/...In-Summer-2012/

 

According to information compiled from media reports and released today by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission's (CPSC) Pool Safely campaign, 137 children younger than 15 years drowned in a pool or spa during the traditional summer season of Memorial Day to Labor Day this year. An additional 168 children of that age required emergency response for near-fatal incidents in pools or spas during that period.

 

WOW, 137 in just 4 months is still > 62 for an entire year.  You still think I'm not following the original argument?



#73 Bent Sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:03 AM

JBSF, you come in after fourteen hours, ignore the context of the conversation (it's in the post Olsonist quoted for you), and then tell us that it's about what you want it to be - not what was actually being discussed prior to your addition.

 

Like it or not, whether it suits your position or not, the conversation in regards to swimming pools came from a comment that quite explicitly asked about kids dying in swimming pools. Not people of any demographics dying by drowning regardless of the location but "How many kids drowned in swimming pools in that same time frame?".

 

You are making a new argument, not following the existing one. What are the pool drowning stats for kids under the age of 15 in 2010? 

 

For what it's worth, your (new) argument has a lot more merit if you dig into the CDC report a little further rather than dig through disparate data sources for cause of death. It's one line above your quoted stat ;)



#74 TornadoCAN99

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:00 AM

Again, has anyone considered what numbers look like in context of how many kids are using swimming pools vs those that use/have easy access to guns? If 100x more kids access guns than those that go swimming, and the death rate is 10x higher for gun accessers, that says guns around kids are still10x less deadly that kids swimming.

Looking at the absolute numbers of deaths isn't so meaningful unless rates of usage are taken into consideration.

 

My suspicion is that numbers of kids that swim is likely to be many hundreds of times higher than those that have ready access to loaded firearms. Thus the CDC numbers for swimming deaths SHOULD be higher than for guns in a given year. Gotta know the relative usage for both to know which is more risky.



#75 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:03 AM

JBSF, you come in after fourteen hours, ignore the context of the conversation (it's in the post Olsonist quoted for you), and then tell us that it's about what you want it to be - not what was actually being discussed prior to your addition.

 

Like it or not, whether it suits your position or not, the conversation in regards to swimming pools came from a comment that quite explicitly asked about kids dying in swimming pools. Not people of any demographics dying by drowning regardless of the location but "How many kids drowned in swimming pools in that same time frame?".

 

You are making a new argument, not following the existing one. What are the pool drowning stats for kids under the age of 15 in 2010? 

 

For what it's worth, your (new) argument has a lot more merit if you dig into the CDC report a little further rather than dig through disparate data sources for cause of death. It's one line above your quoted stat ;)

 

What the FUCK kind of drugs are you taking?  Please put down the crack pipe.  I specifically posted stats from the CDC (post 61 & 64) that not only show the comparison between total drownings and total accidental firearms deaths, but those very same pages (PAGE 23 of the PDF for FFS!) show it by age.

 

Since Olsen got menstrual about it not being specifically about swimming pools, I further found CDC data that showed that MOST children who drown die in FUCKING SWIMMING POOLS!  Another gov't stat said 137 kids died in swimming pools in one summer alone, compared with 62 children under 15 who died from accidental firearm discharges IN A YEAR. 

 

FUCKING CHRIST!  What part of comparing accidental gun deaths and drowning in swimming pools did you not fucking get????  FUCK!



#76 Bent Sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:21 AM

JBSF, you come in after fourteen hours, ignore the context of the conversation (it's in the post Olsonist quoted for you), and then tell us that it's about what you want it to be - not what was actually being discussed prior to your addition.
 
Like it or not, whether it suits your position or not, the conversation in regards to swimming pools came from a comment that quite explicitly asked about kids dying in swimming pools. Not people of any demographics dying by drowning regardless of the location but "How many kids drowned in swimming pools in that same time frame?".
 
You are making a new argument, not following the existing one. What are the pool drowning stats for kids under the age of 15 in 2010? 
 
For what it's worth, your (new) argument has a lot more merit if you dig into the CDC report a little further rather than dig through disparate data sources for cause of death. It's one line above your quoted stat ;)

 
What the FUCK kind of drugs are you taking?  Please put down the crack pipe.  I specifically posted stats from the CDC (post 61 & 64) that not only show the comparison between total drownings and total accidental firearms deaths, but those very same pages (PAGE 23 of the PDF for FFS!) show it by age.
 
Since Olsen got menstrual about it not being specifically about swimming pools, I further found CDC data that showed that MOST children who drown die in FUCKING SWIMMING POOLS!  Another gov't stat said 137 kids died in swimming pools in one summer alone, compared with 62 children under 15 who died from accidental firearm discharges IN A YEAR. 
 
FUCKING CHRIST!  What part of comparing accidental gun deaths and drowning in swimming pools did you not fucking get????  FUCK!

Speaking of menstrual...

You stated that Olsonist was being semantically pedantic because he was talking about something you had yet to address. The problem is he was (at the time of his post) dealing with the subject whilst you were whinging about him not dealing with your (new) argument. I don't argue you eventually got on board, but when i started typing the reply - you hadn't. Your histrionics don't change that.

Your last line applies to all of your posts prior to #72.

#77 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:36 AM

Now that we have that tap-dancing over with,  I take it you finally concede that accidental shootings of children are FAR less than accidental drownings of children?  Even accidental drownings in SWIMMING POOLS. 

 

Look, the common theme here - regardless if its guns laying around or swimming pools left unguarded..... is shitty parents who leave their children unsupervised and leave dangerous things easily accessed for them to hurt themselves with. 

 

THE POINT here is:  Why do we blame GUN  when it never even crosses our mind to blame the swimming pool.  If a kid drowns, there is no outcry from the community to ban pools.  They immediately blame (correctly) the shitty parents for leaving the kid unsupervised.  Yet a kid accidentally gets killed with a loaded gun laying around and somehow the gun itself is the evil tool that needs to be gotten rid of. 

 

In BOTH cases - it is THE PARENTS who are to blame for the death of a child, NOT the mechanism that killed the kid.  Why is that such a hard thing to understand???



#78 Bent Sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:42 AM

Now that we have that tap-dancing over with,  I take it you finally concede that accidental shootings of children are FAR less than accidental drownings of children?  Even accidental drownings in SWIMMING POOLS.

 
Might want to actually look over the thread, mate. I didn't "finally concede" that fact. I never argued against it. 
 

Look, the common theme here - regardless if its guns laying around or swimming pools left unguarded..... is shitty parents who leave their children unsupervised and leave dangerous things easily accessed for them to hurt themselves with. 
 
THE POINT here is:  Why do we blame GUN  when it never even crosses our mind to blame the swimming pool.  If a kid drowns, there is no outcry from the community to ban pools.  They immediately blame (correctly) the shitty parents for leaving the kid unsupervised.  Yet a kid accidentally gets killed with a loaded gun laying around and somehow the gun itself is the evil tool that needs to be gotten rid of. 
 
In BOTH cases - it is THE PARENTS who are to blame for the death of a child, NOT the mechanism that killed the kid.  Why is that such a hard thing to understand???

 

Actually, we blame access to guns in the same way we blame access to the pool. Banning guns is about removing access to them remember. People that need guns here are allowed access, their danger being greater (as measured in body count) than pools - there are greater restrictions on access. It's not because they're an eye-sore that Queer Eye for the Straight Guy ruled a fashion faux pas. It is about removing access to a cause of death, accidental and deliberate. Just like there are ongoing regulations one needs to meet having a pool (see B.J.Porter's posts above), some of us believe there should be ongoing regulations one needs to meet in regards to having guns.

 

Of course, no false equivalency between guns and accidental-death-of-the-day is good without reference to the argument "Why not ban it then?" To which I refer, once again, to the design of and purpose of the cause. Pools are not designed to efficiently kill or injure, guns are.



#79 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:04 AM

So it would appear to be three inquiries.  

 

1.  How many people commit suicide each year by firearm vs. swimming pool.

2.  How many people intentionally kill other people each year by firearm vs. swiming pool.

3.  How many people die each year in accidents involving firearms vs. swimming pools.  

 

In order to have complete information in order to reach an informed conclusion about the relative dangers, don't we need to have all of those numbers?  The numbers are what they are.  

 


SOL, huge fail on your part and you're displaying uncharactoristic intellectual laziness or dishonesty.  Since the thread is about an "Accidental" shooting and using the outrage of a child 'accidentally" killed with a gun.... the topic is accidental death.  NOT intentional death.  If you want to keep this to an apples to apples discussion, we are talking accidental firearm death compared to other types of accidental death.  Accidental firearm death is significantly lower than most over accidents, including swimming pools, poisons, staircases and ladders and icy sidewalks, and vehicles. 

 

Thowing deliberate deaths into the conversation is a red herring.  Please try to keep up. 

A couple of responses to this.  Looking at complete information instead of cherry picking is not dishonest.  That word gets thrown around a good bit, seemingly by those comparing swimming pools to guns.  I find that ironic.  

 

I have never heard of a little kid that doesn't know any better, picking up a swimming pool and accidentally causing another little kid to drown.  The comparison is absurd.  See comments by A505.  The only thing this does is deflect from the real issue.  See comments about dishonesty, in the previous paragraph.  

 

One little kid accidentally killed another little kid with a firearm, and you want to talk about swimming pools, while calling others dishonest?  Again, I find that ironic.  The real issue is the responsibility of the owner of that firearm, for its security.  If you want to disarm those who would restrict your second amendment rights, do so by holding the person(s) who screwed up responsible, not by pinching off a weasel and suggesting that guns are not as dangerous as something else.  The wrong-doer here is not the little kid who is dead, not the little kid who pulled the trigger, not the swimming pool out back, it is the adult who was responsible for a weapon that when used improperly is unsafe.  



#80 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:10 AM

Now that we have that tap-dancing over with,  I take it you finally concede that accidental shootings of children are FAR less than accidental drownings of children?  Even accidental drownings in SWIMMING POOLS. 

 

Look, the common theme here - regardless if its guns laying around or swimming pools left unguarded..... is shitty parents who leave their children unsupervised and leave dangerous things easily accessed for them to hurt themselves with. 

 

THE POINT here is:  Why do we blame GUN  when it never even crosses our mind to blame the swimming pool.  If a kid drowns, there is no outcry from the community to ban pools.  They immediately blame (correctly) the shitty parents for leaving the kid unsupervised.  Yet a kid accidentally gets killed with a loaded gun laying around and somehow the gun itself is the evil tool that needs to be gotten rid of. 

 

In BOTH cases - it is THE PARENTS who are to blame for the death of a child, NOT the mechanism that killed the kid.  Why is that such a hard thing to understand???

See my previous post.  It's hard to get to that point when discussions of incidents like this get deflected with the swimming pool argument.  The solution to this stuff is just a wee bit of personal responsibility by those who own these things, not some kind of boo-hoo, the media isn't covering drowning deaths argument.  



#81 Tom Ray

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:13 AM

Pools are not designed to efficiently kill or injure, guns are.

 

One of many reasons that police and other people who want to exercise their natural right of self defense do not lug pools around on the streets. Has anyone ever used a pool to defend himself?

 

We restrict access to both, making me thankful that my pond is an Act of God and thus not subject to safety regulations. ;)

 

Speaking of restricting access, there's another difference.
 

We must also address the District’s requirement (as applied to respondent’s handgun) that firearms in the home be rendered and kept inoperable at all times. This makes it impossible for citizens to use them for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.

 



#82 Bent Sailor

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:24 AM

Pools are not designed to efficiently kill or injure, guns are.

 

One of many reasons that police and other people who want to exercise their natural right of self defense do not lug pools around on the streets. Has anyone ever used a pool to defend himself?

 

We restrict access to both, making me thankful that my pond is an Act of God and thus not subject to safety regulations. ;)

 

Speaking of restricting access, there's another difference.
 

>We must also address the District’s requirement (as applied to respondent’s handgun) that firearms in the home be rendered and kept inoperable at all times. This makes it impossible for citizens to use them for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.

 

 

Always nice to have your predictable tangents added to the thread, Tom. Kind of proves Sol's point nicely for us.



#83 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:58 AM

You guys keep being mean to Jeff and someone is gonna get called a cunt. Just warning you.

#84 LenP

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:12 PM

Now that we have that tap-dancing over with,  I take it you finally concede that accidental shootings of children are FAR less than accidental drownings of children?  Even accidental drownings in SWIMMING POOLS. 

 

Look, the common theme here - regardless if its guns laying around or swimming pools left unguarded..... is shitty parents who leave their children unsupervised and leave dangerous things easily accessed for them to hurt themselves with. 

 

THE POINT here is:  Why do we blame GUN  when it never even crosses our mind to blame the swimming pool.  If a kid drowns, there is no outcry from the community to ban pools.  They immediately blame (correctly) the shitty parents for leaving the kid unsupervised.  Yet a kid accidentally gets killed with a loaded gun laying around and somehow the gun itself is the evil tool that needs to be gotten rid of. 

 

In BOTH cases - it is THE PARENTS who are to blame for the death of a child, NOT the mechanism that killed the kid.  Why is that such a hard thing to understand???

See my previous post.  It's hard to get to that point when discussions of incidents like this get deflected with the swimming pool argument.  The solution to this stuff is just a wee bit of personal responsibility by those who own these things, not some kind of boo-hoo, the media isn't covering drowning deaths argument.  

 

This was the latest in a whole line of threads on guns started by a notorious troll,. Forgive me for not taking the troll post seriously. In case it was not crystal clear, I believe the parents are at fault when they leave children with access to dangerous implements and situations. The parents are responsible whether that implement is a gun, a pool, or a sippy cup full of antifreeze. You seem to have said the same thing here, and yet find it dishonest for me to say it because I referenced other non-gun types of accidents caused by parental neglect? Fascinating. No boo hoo here, just fuck you.



#85 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

Allowing kids access to loaded weapons may be wrong, but there's nothing illegal about it. You don't like it, make it a crime. Do you think the NRA will support it?

#86 LenP

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:21 PM

In a thread that starts with 2 articles about kids killing their siblings with guns, the first reply wants to compare swimming pool deaths.
Not gun safety. Not parenting. Not about the wisdom of marketing children's guns.
No, you want to distract from the topic by mentioning swimming pools.
Epic failure.
Keep it up though, you are entertaining.

 

Yes, since it was poor parenting that would allow a kid to drown in a pool or shoot their sibling. One is relevant to the other, because the solution is to stop bad parents. Clear enough for you, or do I need to break out the full on barney version and crayons?



#87 LenP

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:22 PM

Allowing kids access to loaded weapons may be wrong, but there's nothing illegal about it. You don't like it, make it a crime. Do you think the NRA will support it?

 

Still looking for me to call you names?



#88 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:22 PM

Should there be laws against poor parenting? Nanny stater?

#89 GRUMPY

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:25 PM

There are laws against bad parenting. Should they be enforced?



#90 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:28 PM

There are laws against bad parenting. Should they be enforced?


What parenting law was broken in these two cases?

#91 BIAM

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

Allowing kids access to loaded weapons may be wrong, but there's nothing illegal about it. You don't like it, make it a crime. Do you think the NRA will support it?

 

Still looking for me to call you names?

believe me, you don't have to call people names to look like a complete fool....you are doing fine already...



#92 B.J. Porter

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

Again, has anyone considered what numbers look like in context of how many kids are using swimming pools vs those that use/have easy access to guns? If 100x more kids access guns than those that go swimming, and the death rate is 10x higher for gun accessers, that says guns around kids are still10x less deadly that kids swimming.

Looking at the absolute numbers of deaths isn't so meaningful unless rates of usage are taken into consideration.

 

My suspicion is that numbers of kids that swim is likely to be many hundreds of times higher than those that have ready access to loaded firearms. Thus the CDC numbers for swimming deaths SHOULD be higher than for guns in a given year. Gotta know the relative usage for both to know which is more risky.

 

That is a reasonable point.  The most dangerous gun on our house was a pellet gun I bought to chase raccoons out of the garbage.  However, we had a pool for my children's entire lives.

 

So the days they were at risk from accidental shooting deaths were pretty much ZERO, and the days they were exposed to possible drownings (if you assume ANY day there is a pool with water in it) was pretty much 365 a year since the pool was covered but not empty all winter.

 

Yet in 15 years in that house we had zero drowings with thousands and thousands of child-hours near a pool



#93 B.J. Porter

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:41 PM

I have never heard of a little kid that doesn't know any better, picking up a swimming pool and accidentally causing another little kid to drown.  The comparison is absurd.  See comments by A505.  The only thing this does is deflect from the real issue.  See comments about dishonesty, in the previous paragraph.  

 

Actually Sol, I'd take a bet that at least one - and maybe more than one - kid has accidentally killed another kid with unsafe horseplay around pools.

 

And when you get down to it I'm willing to be most kids that are given guns are told never to point them at another person.



#94 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:46 PM

The wrong-doer here is not the little kid who is dead, not the little kid who pulled the trigger, not the swimming pool out back, it is the adult who was responsible for a weapon that when used improperly is unsafe.  

 

Thank you.  Finally someone gets it.



#95 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:53 PM

 

Now that we have that tap-dancing over with,  I take it you finally concede that accidental shootings of children are FAR less than accidental drownings of children?  Even accidental drownings in SWIMMING POOLS. 

 

Look, the common theme here - regardless if its guns laying around or swimming pools left unguarded..... is shitty parents who leave their children unsupervised and leave dangerous things easily accessed for them to hurt themselves with. 

 

THE POINT here is:  Why do we blame GUN  when it never even crosses our mind to blame the swimming pool.  If a kid drowns, there is no outcry from the community to ban pools.  They immediately blame (correctly) the shitty parents for leaving the kid unsupervised.  Yet a kid accidentally gets killed with a loaded gun laying around and somehow the gun itself is the evil tool that needs to be gotten rid of. 

 

In BOTH cases - it is THE PARENTS who are to blame for the death of a child, NOT the mechanism that killed the kid.  Why is that such a hard thing to understand???

See my previous post.  It's hard to get to that point when discussions of incidents like this get deflected with the swimming pool argument.  The solution to this stuff is just a wee bit of personal responsibility by those who own these things, not some kind of boo-hoo, the media isn't covering drowning deaths argument.  

 

This was the latest in a whole line of threads on guns started by a notorious troll,. Forgive me for not taking the troll post seriously. In case it was not crystal clear, I believe the parents are at fault when they leave children with access to dangerous implements and situations. The parents are responsible whether that implement is a gun, a pool, or a sippy cup full of antifreeze. You seem to have said the same thing here, and yet find it dishonest for me to say it because I referenced other non-gun types of accidents caused by parental neglect? Fascinating. No boo hoo here, just fuck you.

This is precisely why I try to avoid the gun threads.  We're on the same side of this issue, but can never get to discussing possible solutions because every discussion immediately gets muddied.  Pool safety?  At least in FL, the Legislature thinks it's a good idea, enough so to make it a second degree misdemeanor to fail to follow the rules.      The FL Legislature makes giving weapons to kids a felony.   Personal responsibility is the issue here.  

 

The swimming pool argument <opinion> only serves to alienate people who might be willing to think about protecting second amendment rights while promoting safety and reducing gun violence. <opinion/>  



#96 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

So can we all agree that we need tighter regulations on responsible gun ownership?



#97 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

edit to post 94: and for those of you who are completely missing the point thinking that our arguments about swimming pools are silly..... its simply to point out that as always - when something like this happens - the blame immediately gets shifted to the gun itself rather than the stupid ass parents. So to show you the stupidity of your argument (BIAM, Olsen, HOW, et al) - we counter with a statistical truth that if you want to compare mechanisms of accidental death - POOLS have a much higher body count than guns. By a LOT! If we want to add in poison, fire, cars, falls, etc - guns don'ts even register on the accidental death meter.

 

What would be a more appropriate way to adress this issue is to condemn the parents for leaving a loaded gun laying around and hammer the fuck out of them. But the point is, its not the fault of the gun itself.

 

And furthermore, there is not the epidemic of deaths resulting from accidental gun discharges that threads like this try to make it out to be. Having said that, I'm ok with requiring parents to secure their weapons if there are children around. The fact that we have to legislate common sense in the first place is fucking ridiculous, but whatever.



#98 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:59 PM

I have never heard of a little kid that doesn't know any better, picking up a swimming pool and accidentally causing another little kid to drown.  The comparison is absurd.  See comments by A505.  The only thing this does is deflect from the real issue.  See comments about dishonesty, in the previous paragraph.  

 

Actually Sol, I'd take a bet that at least one - and maybe more than one - kid has accidentally killed another kid with unsafe horseplay around pools.

 

And when you get down to it I'm willing to be most kids that are given guns are told never to point them at another person.

Absolutely...but he didn't kill him with it, he (and I use the male gender in reference to stupidity getting someone killed in a pool on purpose), got him killed in it.  esoteric point to be sure.  



#99 Spatial Ed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:59 PM

How about a federal law that says you must install trigger locks and unload any weapon you are not carrying.  That would prevent this type of situation.



#100 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

The swimming pool argument <opinion> only serves to alienate people who might be willing to think about protecting second amendment rights while promoting safety and reducing gun violence. <opinion/>  

 

The swimming pool argument is a sharp stick in the eye to every idiot troll here who thinks that

 

1) a huge number of people die due to accidental guns deaths every year (I think 3300+ was the number used) and.....

2) that the mere fact there is a gun in the house is the reason for this epidemic of deaths and therefore we shouldn't be allowed to own guns.

 

Both of those statements are patently false and the pool counter-argument is a STFU to them for not thinking.  In both cases, it is as you say the parents fault for allowing a kid access to something dangerous. 






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