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#1 allen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:44 PM

http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8

 

Having just had so much fun with the tacked too close discussion I thought I would ask about this incident.  The camera is on my boat.  We yelled and waved our hands and saw no response from the port tacker.  I tacked to avoid the collision we would have had.  I asked the other skipper about it after and he said he wondered why I tacked.  He was going to duck me or tack and there was no need for me to alter course.  My boat is a 1956 Lapworth 36 and the other boat is a Catalina 400.  The fact we were on a collision course near the finish line and that he owes me 50 seconds per mile played into my decision to tack when I did.  Having a full keel and needing way more room to tack than modern boats was the major factor however.  My feeling is that not knowing if he was going to duck or tack with just a few seconds to go is evidence that he wasn't going to miss me.  I didn't protest and I won the race.  What do you experts think?



#2 allen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:51 PM

How do I get the video embedded in the post?



#3 Brass

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:41 PM

Case 50 (copied below) should give you the answer.

 

Given all the reservations about video evidence, it looks to me like you were a bit premature and maybe any apprehension of collision you had was not completely reasonable.  Did you have eye-contact?  Did you have any doubt that they saw you and appreciated the situation?

 

You could also consider Case 87, which addresses the situation of Port T Boning  Starboard and says 'P could readily have borne off and avoided S from a position very close to S'

 

I also note that the video shows no signs of any hail of Protest or display of red flag, so that, from a race management point of view, several minutes ahead on handicap, you did completely the right thing by avoiding a protest hearing.


CASE 50

 

Definitions, Keep Clear

 

Rule 10, On Opposite Tacks

 

Rule 14, Avoiding Contact

 

When a protest committee finds that in a port-starboard incident S did not change course and that there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on the part of S, it should dismiss her protest. When the committee finds that S did change course and that there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead of S if S had not changed course, then P should be disqualified.

 

Summary of the Facts

 

On a windward leg, P met S and sailed a course to cross ahead of S. S bore away, displayed a protest flag, and hailed P her intent to protest. Both boats were identical 27-foot (8 m) keel boats, and the wind strength was Force 3.

 

S protested under rule 10, stating that she had to bear away to avoid colliding with P. The protest committee dismissed the protest by S, stating that: ‘The need to change course could not be substantiated by the conflicting testimony of the two helmsmen.’ S appealed.

 

Decision

 

Rule 10 protests involving no contact are very common, and protest committees tend to handle them in very different ways. Some place an onus on the port-tack boat to prove conclusively that she would have cleared the starboard-tack boat, even when the latter’s evidence is barely worthy of credence. No such onus appears in rule 10. Other protest committees are reluctant to allow any rule 10 protest in the absence of contact, unless the starboard-tack boat proves conclusively that contact would have occurred had she not changed course. Both approaches are incorrect.

 

S’s diagram, later endorsed by the protest committee, shows that S bore away to avoid contact. P’s diagram, which was not endorsed by the protest committee, showed a near miss if S did not bear away. P did not deny or confirm that S bore away but said that, if she did, it was unnecessary.

 

A starboard-tack boat in such circumstances need not hold her course so as to prove, by hitting the port-tack boat, that a collision was inevitable. Moreover, if she does so she will break rule 14. At a protest hearing, S must establish either that contact would have occurred if she had held her course, or that there was enough doubt that P could safely cross ahead to create a reasonable apprehension of contact on S’s part and that it was unlikely that S would have ‘no need to take avoiding action’ (see the definition Keep Clear).

 

In her own defence, P must present adequate evidence to establish either that S did not change course or that P would have safely crossed ahead of S and that S had no need to take avoiding action. When, after considering all the evidence, a protest committee finds that S did not change course or that there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on her part, it should dismiss her protest. When, however, it is satisfied that S did change course, that there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead, and that S was justified in taking avoiding action by bearing away, then P should be disqualified.

 

On the facts, as shown in the diagram and the report of the protest committee, the ability of P to cross ahead of S was doubtful at best. S’s appeal is upheld, and P is disqualified.



#4 Overbored

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:58 PM

Looks to me that you made the right decision. if he was planing on ducking he should have been starting to bear off before you tacked. 



#5 allen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:09 PM

We did not have eye contact in part because nobody on P was looking at us.  At the time there was no doubt that we were on a collision course and the video shows that.  I also have no doubt that I did the right thing.  My doubt comes from not knowing if P broke rule 10 because I did tack.  I didn't consider it early as my boat turns so slowly compared to any other boat but I probably could have continued for a second or two without hitting him.  On the other hand, I didn't really want to see if he knew how to duck me either given no reply to our hail.  I just wondered if others think it was close given that there was no response from the other boat to our hail.

 

It gave me a problem because I was then pinned to leeward of the other boat and he carried me well beyond the layline.  I think it is clear I thought I needed to tack to avoid a collision because I did tack and put myself in a disadvantaged position in doing so with a boat that was not competitive with me.

 

One reason I know I did the right thing was that this same boat t-boned another boat the following week while he was under power and the boat he hit was under sail.  Ruined the guys planned trip to Hawaii.



#6 Touch of Gray

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:10 PM

Breezy day.  Hard to say what he was up to.  And isn't really clear if he could have cracked off and turned down in that breeze. No need for getting boats hurt.

 

Now you probably wouldn't win in The Room as he can say he hailed (maybe but hard to hear) and bore off (looks like he did)  But again, avoid collisions and all good. 

 

Didn't see if he stayed on port or tacked away.  What happened?

 

TOG



#7 allen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:11 PM

Looks to me that you made the right decision. if he was planing on ducking he should have been starting to bear off before you tacked. 

That is what really got me.  He said he was going to "duck or tack" and that is not a decision you make 3 seconds before a potential collision.



#8 allen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:14 PM

Didn't see if he stayed on port or tacked away.  What happened?

 

TOG

He continued on port and carried me well past the layline.  That is what really hurt. 



#9 Brass

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:24 PM

We did not have eye contact in part because nobody on P was looking at us.  At the time there was no doubt that we were on a collision course and the video shows that.  I also have no doubt that I did the right thing.  My doubt comes from not knowing if P broke rule 10 because I did tack.

Case 50 gives you the answer: 
 
If you changed course and you had 'a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision' ...  or 'there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead of S if S had not changed course, then P should be disqualified'
 
You have given good reasons why you had a reasonable apprehension and you changed course.  You should have been in no doubt that P broke rule 10.  All the moreso if the other boat was a known bozo.

But if going right caused difficulties for you, why didn't you duck him and continue left where you wanted to go, screaming, yelling and howling 'Protest' 'Starboard' 'Keep Clear' 'Do your turns' as you passed under his stern?

#10 Touch of Gray

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:28 PM

Didn't see if he stayed on port or tacked away.  What happened?

 

TOG

He continued on port and carried me well past the layline.  That is what really hurt. 

All the more reason to give this guy a wide berth.  Did he think he'd get his 50 seconds per mile back?

 

TOG



#11 fan

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:38 PM

Well part of the reason they do not allow video evidence is it is hard to judge distances. When I look at that video I would say you could not throw out P. You tacked well before they would have needed to begin their tack if they were going to lee bow. Do I think you did the right thing..yes probably. If they intended to do something they should have acknowledged your hail but are under no legal obligation to do so. I would also say that was far from a crash tack at least by my definition but I race one design sometimes so maybe my view is skewed haha



#12 allen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:41 PM

All the more reason to give this guy a wide berth.  Did he think he'd get his 50 seconds per mile back?

 

TOG

Given we had already gone 6 miles he should not have.   I ultimately finished in front of him boat for boat.

 

@Brass +1



#13 Brass

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:45 PM

Well part of the reason they do not allow video evidence is it is hard to judge distances.

Where do you get this stuff from?  You're making it up right?

 

Rule M7 specifically allows photographic (read video) evidence while spelling out the limitations.

 

M7 PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE

 

Photographs and videos can sometimes provide useful evidence but protest committees should recognize their limitations and note the following points:

 

● The party producing the photographic evidence is responsible for arranging the viewing.

 

● View the video several times to extract all the information from it.

 

● The depth perception of any single-lens camera is very poor; with a telephoto lens it is non-existent. When the camera views two overlapped boats at right angles to their course, it is impossible to assess the distance between them. When the camera views them head on, it is impossible to see whether an overlap exists unless it is substantial.

 

● Ask the following questions:

 

· Where was the camera in relation to the boats?

 

· Was the camera’s platform moving? If so in what direction and how fast?

 

· Is the angle changing as the boats approach the critical point? Fast panning causes radical change.

 

· Did the camera have an unrestricted view throughout?



#14 allen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:45 PM

But if going right caused difficulties for you, why didn't you duck him and continue left where you wanted to go, screaming, yelling and howling 'Protest' 'Starboard' 'Keep Clear' 'Do your turns' as you passed under his stern?

I didn't want to risk getting into the situation where two boats try and duck each other and hit.  I also didn't know he would take me beyond the layline until later.  That is what really pissed me off, his continuing on port.



#15 Steam Flyer

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:46 AM

But if going right caused difficulties for you, why didn't you duck him and continue left where you wanted to go, screaming, yelling and howling 'Protest' 'Starboard' 'Keep Clear' 'Do your turns' as you passed under his stern?

 

I didn't want to risk getting into the situation where two boats try and duck each other and hit.  I also didn't know he would take me beyond the layline until later.  That is what really pissed me off, his continuing on port.

 

From looking at the angles on video, it looked like fairly constant bearing (ie definite risk of collision). OTOH you were only on starboard tack for about ten seconds and no hail was heard on the video either. I did see the jib trimmer wave briefly... couldn't tell if anybody on the other boat was looking but there certainly was not an obvious response.

 

The angles on video make it look like it would have been a bigger duck for you than for him. I also think that perhaps you tacked a bit too soon, but then it was windy and risk of contact would have been risking serious damage. If the other skipper has a bad reputation for being crash-prone then you definitely did the right thing.

 

About being carried past the layline... remember that if you are ahead & to leeward you have every right to pinch up and force him to tack away. This may also be a bit risky if Cap'n Crash doesn't know the rules well enough to know he has to keep clear. It is also to your disadvantage that his boat probably outpoints yours, but it's still worth a try especially if you can force him to tack short of the layline.

 

About protesting- it may be that this would be inappropriate in this particular race, but protests are how the rules are enforced. It should be regarded as a normal part of racing. I disagree the philosophy that if you beat him anyway, then forget it. The rules are still important and the guy that -he- beat does not deserve to lose to a skipper who has broken the rules.

 

FB- Doug



#16 surf nazi

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:49 PM

 

But if going right caused difficulties for you, why didn't you duck him and continue left where you wanted to go, screaming, yelling and howling 'Protest' 'Starboard' 'Keep Clear' 'Do your turns' as you passed under his stern?

 

I didn't want to risk getting into the situation where two boats try and duck each other and hit.  I also didn't know he would take me beyond the layline until later.  That is what really pissed me off, his continuing on port.

 

From looking at the angles on video, it looked like fairly constant bearing (ie definite risk of collision). OTOH you were only on starboard tack for about ten seconds and no hail was heard on the video either. I did see the jib trimmer wave briefly... couldn't tell if anybody on the other boat was looking but there certainly was not an obvious response.

 

The angles on video make it look like it would have been a bigger duck for you than for him. I also think that perhaps you tacked a bit too soon, but then it was windy and risk of contact would have been risking serious damage. If the other skipper has a bad reputation for being crash-prone then you definitely did the right thing.

 

About being carried past the layline... remember that if you are ahead & to leeward you have every right to pinch up and force him to tack away. This may also be a bit risky if Cap'n Crash doesn't know the rules well enough to know he has to keep clear. It is also to your disadvantage that his boat probably outpoints yours, but it's still worth a try especially if you can force him to tack short of the layline.

 

About protesting- it may be that this would be inappropriate in this particular race, but protests are how the rules are enforced. It should be regarded as a normal part of racing. I disagree the philosophy that if you beat him anyway, then forget it. The rules are still important and the guy that -he- beat does not deserve to lose to a skipper who has broken the rules.

 

FB- Doug

 

 

maybe some communication between the boats would have helped.   Why the silence ?



#17 BalticBandit

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:11 PM


Looks to me that you made the right decision. if he was planing on ducking he should have been starting to bear off before you tacked. 

That is what really got me.  He said he was going to "duck or tack" and that is not a decision you make 3 seconds before a potential collision.

Well  a couple of things here - yes that he owes you 50 seconds and you are crossing does suggest he's not the sharpest tack in the box or that he's having a bad day.  So avoiding him is not a bad thing to do BUT

 

 

  • If you really were that close to an imminent collision that you had to tack, then he should not have been able to hold you out on port because you would have been tacking basically under his lee bow and sucked him down into your dirt very quickly.   That this did not apparently happen suggests you tacked well below him, IOW well before there was any "imminent apprehension of collision".

     

     

  • Duck or Tack IS OFTEN a decision I make 1-2 seconds before the maneuver.  Mind you, I've taken the time to tell my crew "We may need to do a really quick tack here cuz i've got an 'issue'" so heads come inside the lifelines and the lazy sheet gets preloaded and winch handles are in hand. but these are all things you will not see me doing.   I'm making the call by sighting somewhere along my boom (varies from boat to boat) to YOUR BOW and not you back in skipper position.  So you are likely to not have eye contact with me.  

     

     

  The video here is hard to tell because it is so wide angle that distances are very hard to estimate.  Now particularly coming into a crowded finish line, you are going to need to be a bit more comfortable with close crossings or else accept that you will be losing a fair amount of ground making tacks you don't necessarily have to make.

 

 

But in this case, given where you ended up after that tack  I'm fairy sure you tacked way too soon.   Think through the geometry  If he really was "about to hit you"

  • If he was bow to bow with you, your tack would have put him above and ahead of you but almost a hull.  Yet your video does not show that
  • If he was "almost crossing your"  your tack would have put your bow around Midships of him and again almost a hull. Yet your video does not show that
  • if he was going to hit you aft of midships, after your tack he would not have shown up in your video, but you still would have been almost a hull with him and your leebow on him would have spit him out into the WayBack Machine almost instantly - yet you said he carried you well past the layline

 

You tacked way too soon



#18 allen

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:19 PM

maybe some communication between the boats would have helped.   Why the silence ?

The camera is in a waterproof case and tends to only pick up rigging noise but if you turn the volume up you can hear the guy waving yell at 20 seconds into the video.  I didn't wait long enough to give him a chance to yell again as I just didn't want to mess with a boat that should have been 5 minutes in front of us if sailed well that we were on a collision course with that did not seem to see us.  In fairness to him, it is pretty windy out there and not that easy to hear and we had only been on starboard for about 10 seconds.  To see us, he would have needed to anticipate that we were approaching the layline and likely to tack and put a lookout on the rail.  

 

I just watched more of the video than what was in the clip.  For anyone interested the Catalina 400 tacked about 20 seconds later and in the next leg we were slightly faster and out pointed them by quite a lot.  We finished in front of them and also in front of the T-10 that usually finishes in front of us and is our main competition.  They owe us a couple of minutes so I guess we were not in as tight a race as I previously indicated.



#19 BalticBandit

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:23 PM

Again, while communicating is a benefit, its not required.   you still tacked way way way too far away.  BTW the best way to let someone know you are there in a breeze - rather than yelling STB - have one of your crew pound the lazaret hatch or even the side of the cockpit with their heel or the heel of their hand.  Causes the whole boat to echo and its a clear sound of who you are.   

 

But in this situation, I would warn my crew that "we may need to tack fast"  - but you don't tack until you are at the point that the tack would put you literally side by side with him.



#20 allen

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:41 PM

Well  a couple of things here - yes that he owes you 50 seconds and you are crossing does suggest he's not the sharpest tack in the box or that he's having a bad day.  So avoiding him is not a bad thing to do BUT

 

 

  • If you really were that close to an imminent collision that you had to tack, then he should not have been able to hold you out on port because you would have been tacking basically under his lee bow and sucked him down into your dirt very quickly.   That this did not apparently happen suggests you tacked well below him, IOW well before there was any "imminent apprehension of collision".

     

     

  • Duck or Tack IS OFTEN a decision I make 1-2 seconds before the maneuver.  Mind you, I've taken the time to tell my crew "We may need to do a really quick tack here cuz i've got an 'issue'" so heads come inside the lifelines and the lazy sheet gets preloaded and winch handles are in hand. but these are all things you will not see me doing.   I'm making the call by sighting somewhere along my boom (varies from boat to boat) to YOUR BOW and not you back in skipper position.  So you are likely to not have eye contact with me.  

     

     

  The video here is hard to tell because it is so wide angle that distances are very hard to estimate.  Now particularly coming into a crowded finish line, you are going to need to be a bit more comfortable with close crossings or else accept that you will be losing a fair amount of ground making tacks you don't necessarily have to make.

 

 

But in this case, given where you ended up after that tack  I'm fairy sure you tacked way too soon.   Think through the geometry  If he really was "about to hit you"

  • If he was bow to bow with you, your tack would have put him above and ahead of you but almost a hull.  Yet your video does not show that
  • If he was "almost crossing your"  your tack would have put your bow around Midships of him and again almost a hull. Yet your video does not show that
  • if he was going to hit you aft of midships, after your tack he would not have shown up in your video, but you still would have been almost a hull with him and your leebow on him would have spit him out into the WayBack Machine almost instantly - yet you said he carried you well past the layline

 

You tacked way too soon

You are probably right but in my defence I sail a very old boat that does not have a space rudder and blade keel.  It turns slow and at the time I felt I needed 3 boat lengths to tack, which is more or less what I had.  In reviewing my GPS track after the race, I could have gone closer as you said.

 

I did not see him prepare for a tack so do not believe he could have pulled it off in the time he had.  Nobody was moving on his boat and everyone was still on the rail.

 

Looking at the video closely, he would have hit me forward of the camera as his bearing is almost constant but moves slightly forward over time so he would not have cleared my stern.  His boat is not visible in the video after I tack.

 

Please note, I am sure I didn't tack too early.  But I am not sure if the other boat broke rule 10.  I didn't protest him and didn't need to.  There seems to be a variety of opinion here of the question of the other boat breaking rule 10, which is pretty consistant with my thoughts. :-)



#21 Danceswithoctopus

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:46 PM

How do I get the video embedded in the post?



#22 BalticBandit

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:02 PM

So you were anticipating him not following the rules.  You can do that, but that will lose in the room.  Now as to your boat tacking slowly - that's fine.  But the geometry of the tack is still the geometry of the tack.  Regardless of how fast you tack, if you end up further to leeward of him than almost hull to hull - you tacked too soon regardless of how fast or slow you tack.  Because that means you started your tack before the very last moment that you could avoid the collision.  That's the meaning of "imminent".

 

As for his bearing being constant, that has nothing to do with his not being able to clear your stern.  YOu are 36' long..  in that breeze both boats were moving probably close to 6 knots.  So you will cross his course in roughly 3.6 seconds  .  So if at 1 BL (36') he would only need to bear off to duck  18' of your boat (since you will be sailing forwards at the time)   The geometry of that is that that he only needs to bear off 30 degrees to clear your stern from 1 BL out. That's not hard to do.  Your tack took 6 seconds.  And yet he ends up behind you  So lets say you lost 1.5 knot of boat speed in the tack (that's very optimistic)  This means that  means that in essence he gained a minimum of 10' on you in the tack.  So if you were Bow to Bow, he would have ended up 10' bow out on you.  But he doesn't in your video.  That means he probably would have hit you midships if a collision was going to happen.

 

That means he really only needed to duck you by about 9' or 10'.  Quite easy to do since that is now only a 15' degree bear off at 1 BL.  You clearly start your tack long before.

 

Nor is there a "variety of opinions" on the question of the other boat breaking rule 10.  again, unless you ended up side by side with him,, you started your tack before the collision was imminent.    Note that even if he held his course until he was within 1 BL of you, collision WAS NOT imminent.  because he could easily bear off in those conditions and his rig set up

 

Now as I said, the video is hard to tell, but it looks like you started your tack at 3-4 boat lengths.  Long long long before there was a need for you to start to tack.  because as your track shows, you tack in about 1-2 BL (regardless of how fast).  That means that your tack was not forced by him in any way.  You could have sailed another 2 BL before starting the tack - at which point if you didn't hear the creaking of a sheet being let out for the duck, you'd have a case to make

 

 

BTW to embed video you do this

 

<youtube> URLForTheVideo </youtube>  except replace the "<"  with square brackets "["



#23 Remodel

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:05 PM

First,

 

I think you could have protested P and won.

 

Second,

 

Why not just waive the guy across and not get trapped out past the lay line? You've already got him hammered on time, and you should be thinking about saving time on the other boats in your class.

 

Third,

 

Nice boat!

shapeimage_8.jpg



#24 BalticBandit

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:14 PM

Not a chance to win this one Remodel - but your point about "waving him across" is a good one. If you have that much of a lead on him, why put yourself in a position to be controlled by him?  But that's a tactical question.



#25 allen

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:53 PM

First,

 

I think you could have protested P and won.

 

Second,

 

Why not just waive the guy across and not get trapped out past the lay line? You've already got him hammered on time, and you should be thinking about saving time on the other boats in your class.

 

Third,

 

Nice boat!

shapeimage_8.jpg

Thanks.  Mine is the one in the middle, #5



#26 Deed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:40 PM

^^^ Like he said. You are over in the right hand corner. You have a boat close by on your hip. You know that a good tactical approach is to plan to duck him and let him overstand. So wave him through already - he doesn't look ready to tack, and besides you can outpoint him. Next time tell your trimmer that's the plan so that he can communicate that clearly and early to the other boat when it is to your obvious advantage.

As for the 2nd tack, I feel you went too early. He looked like he was starting to bear off (not certain of that), and certainly had room to duck you in an orderly manner.

All that said, you have a lovely boat and have every right to baby it around the course. You beat him on the water. The hypothetical protest would have been much harder to win.



#27 Remodel

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:02 PM

First,

 

I think you could have protested P and won.

 

Second,

 

Why not just waive the guy across and not get trapped out past the lay line? You've already got him hammered on time, and you should be thinking about saving time on the other boats in your class.

 

Third,

 

Nice boat!

shapeimage_8.jpg

Thanks.  Mine is the one in the middle, #5

Congrats!

 

What's up with the roach on 71? No offense to the owner, but that doesn't seem legal.



#28 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:13 PM

I understand your concern.  It is a difficult position to be in because your last chance to bail out occurs prior to that of other boats on the course.  Given the lack of communication from the other boat it is hard to know what they are going to do and you don't want to become a sitting duck if they miss their bail out chance as well.

 

That said I think you tacked too early.  The other boat still could have avoided you and more importantly you could have continues on your course and still avoided him.  Even if only for a few seconds.  Port has no obligation to acknowledge you.  It should factor into the protest if port doesn't acknowledge at all.  "I was apprehensive because I was not sure if they had seen us" should legitimately give you more latitude in turning away from a potential collision than if the other boat was waving you across yelling "we'll duck"

 

There was no harm in you tacking early.  You avoided what could have become a needless collision.  It was however in my mind from the video a little early to claim that Port violated rule 10.  

 

I agree that ducking would have been the safer call.  If you were prepared to duck on the helm and trim you could have held course a little while longer.    Until it was clear what the other boat was going to do.   Plus if you alter course by 20 degrees and miss the other boat by 3 feet it is clear that they were cutting it too close.

 

The most important lesson here is that you did the right thing.  You saw a situation and handled it in a way that was well within the capabilities of your boat and your crew.  When a give way boat pushes your comfort level it isn't always breaking the rules.  It is better to stay within your comfort level than trying to "protect" your rights and get into a situation where you misjudge the distances and capabilities the wrong way.



#29 allen

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:18 PM

 

First,

 

I think you could have protested P and won.

 

Second,

 

Why not just waive the guy across and not get trapped out past the lay line? You've already got him hammered on time, and you should be thinking about saving time on the other boats in your class.

 

Third,

 

Nice boat!

shapeimage_8.jpg

Thanks.  Mine is the one in the middle, #5

Congrats!

 

What's up with the roach on 71? No offense to the owner, but that doesn't seem legal.

The main on #71 is much larger than mine for sure.  He says it doesn't tack past the backstay in light winds and the boom hits the lifeline.  My boom is 6'1" above the cockpit sole for comparison and the sail just kisses the backstay.  Mine is probably undersize but I like it.  He doesn't like his much and I guess it was a bit of a surprise.  He told me when he asked, the sailmaker said they were just trying to max out the area.  Just one of several reasons I didn't get my sails from North.



#30 BalticBandit

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

There was no harm in you tacking early.  You avoided what could have become a needless collision.  It was however in my mind from the video a little early to claim that Port violated rule 10.  

 

I agree that ducking would have been the safer call.  If you were prepared to duck on the helm and trim you could have held course a little while longer.    Until it was clear what the other boat was going to do.   Plus if you alter course by 20 degrees and miss the other boat by 3 feet it is clear that they were cutting it too close.

 

The most important lesson here is that you did the right thing.  You saw a situation and handled it in a way that was well within the capabilities of your boat and your crew.  When a give way boat pushes your comfort level it isn't always breaking the rules.  It is better to stay within your comfort level than trying to "protect" your rights and get into a situation where you misjudge the distances and capabilities the wrong way.

So +10 on sailing the boat within what you see as your capabilities.   I didn't mean to suggest you should do otherwise. 

 

That said, as pointed out, you tacked well before collision was imminent.  Imminent doesn't mean you are worried.  It really means that given an AVERAGE CREW skill, it was absolutely your last chance to avoid the collision.   Which this was not. 

 

Also the point about ducking the guy and waving him on, particularly if you think you are going the right way is absolutely something you need to have in your tactical bag.  But understand that once you start your duck, you have no rights to protest the other boat because unless you start your duck at the point that collision is imminent, then the other boat is in fact keeping clear of your TACTICAL course. 

 

consider if this was a downwind leg and you are the Leeward boat and separated by say 2 BL and overlapped.  now you COULD exercise your rights and luff the other guy to kingdom come... OR  you can widen the gap to 3BL, luff up hard, take the other boat's stern and then bear off to the course you want to sail and while you are now the Windward boat, you are not pinned by the other boat.  So even though the other boat in this circumstance did not luff up - the were keeping clear because you were making a tactical course change and under RRS 15 when you make that course change you have to give them room to respond, so if you change course so that they continue to "keep clear"   they are not fouling you



#31 WHL

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:30 PM

Taking into account how fast you tacked in the video, and the amount you head reached during the first tack, it looks like premature etackulation by one boatlength at least.
If you were close to the layline, it would have been better to have stood on. If the wind caused problems communicating, you could have footed down a bit, making it look to him like he would clearly cross, therefore saving you a tack and getting pinned out to the layline. If he decided at the last minute to slam dunk on you, you would have had speed to sail under him, harden up, and gas him while he was down speed in the waves.

#32 Winever

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:41 PM

Allen, first I'd be careful using the word "experts" here on SA.  Not that there aren't some, but .....  You're original post says you got no response from the Port tack boat.  Considering that, if you think it's going to be close and you needed to tack, you are correct, you needed to tack.  Way better than a collision.  I've never raced a 36 full keel boat so I don't know what the correct distance would have been to avoid a collision.  Although I have raced 30 and 22 foot full keel boats.   I wonder how many of the posters that advised you you tacked too early have sailed one too?  Race your boat often and the feel for close and too close will be sharpened in all conditions.  It shouldn't take a collision to prove it.  Good on ya for the win!

 

Sail safe, cheers, Win ever.



#33 BalticBandit

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:45 PM

Winever, I've raced everything for 8'6" shortboards to being crew on an 80' IMS Maxi.  The 40'er I did tactics on was regional PHRF "Boat of the Year" 3 years in a row.  I've dealt with protests from informal beer can "in the club after racing" to formal protests at Wold Championships.  I make mistakes, I don't always win, but I usually do win if it ends up in the room.

 

Brass has a long track record of being spot on WRT the rules  mostly so is JohnMB... one of them I believe is or has been a judge.

 

My goal here is to educate less well versed and experienced folks so that more understand the rules and don't feel they could "go either way" (perceptions of randomness affect perceptions of fairness) - as well as to learn nuances and "holes' in the rules by watching the discussions.

 

I've had the helm in close tacking situations in boats from Windsurfers and high performance skiffs to 50'ers.  Never had a crew injured but early on did have some collisions as I was learning.

 

In college I raced against SUNY Maritime, Kings Point, West Point and the USNA... and never lost a protest to them.



#34 allen

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:56 PM

I agree I tacked earlier than imminent although I didn't think so at the time and I continue to think I did the right thing as reviewing the tape I won that race by several minutes so didn't need a jury to help me.  Our closest competition owes us time and crossed the line behind us (they don't try hard).

 

The alternative of ducking the port boat does not appeal to me as I have seen two boats try and duck each other.  It ended in a dismasting and totaling of one of the boats.  With maybe 8 seconds to a collision had I turned toward the other boat to duck and he did the same thing, we would not have had time to avoid hitting.  At that point, it would also be difficult to judge his course as well as I would be changing course.

 

As many have suggested I duck, perhaps I am missing something.

 

Allen



#35 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

My goal here is to educate less well versed and experienced folks so that more understand the rules and don't feel they could "go either way" (perceptions of randomness affect perceptions of fairness) - as well as to learn nuances and "holes' in the rules by watching the discussions.

 

Protests can and do go either way.  You do a good job laying out how you saw the incident, in this case supported by the video.  However take away the video and this comes down to testimony.   Being logical and precise in a protest makes one seem more credible and I am sure that has helped your win rate.  

 

I am sure that both parties legitimately remember this incident differently.  It is highly likely that PORT would go into the protest and state per their memory that the distances were greater than the actual distances because they saw it as plenty of room.  Starboard would state the distance as less than it was because they felt it was close.  If one side does all the math retroactively and gets the numbers to work out for them boat speed, distances, times, angles etc, that boat has a much better shot at winning.  If both have the math right or neither one does it comes down to which testimony that the PC decides is more credible and often how aggressive the PC is when they are on the water.

 

I am not sure exactly what point I started out trying to make but I have a strong feeling I originally had one.



#36 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:19 PM

I agree I tacked earlier than imminent although I didn't think so at the time and I continue to think I did the right thing as reviewing the tape I won that race by several minutes so didn't need a jury to help me.  Our closest competition owes us time and crossed the line behind us (they don't try hard).

 

The alternative of ducking the port boat does not appeal to me as I have seen two boats try and duck each other.  It ended in a dismasting and totaling of one of the boats.  With maybe 8 seconds to a collision had I turned toward the other boat to duck and he did the same thing, we would not have had time to avoid hitting.  At that point, it would also be difficult to judge his course as well as I would be changing course.

 

As many have suggested I duck, perhaps I am missing something.

 

Allen

 

I have seen more boats get into trouble with ducks before the start than on a beat.   It has to be really bad timing in that both boats need to be on a collision course bow to bow and wait until the last second and try to duck.  Generally one boat is further ahead and it makes it an easy duck for the other when going upwind. 

 

IMO, you bailed out earlier with an early tack which is a big course change.  You could have just as easily bailed early with a less of a course change to duck and made it just as unlikely that a collision would occur.  If you start pointing at the other boats stern a few boat lengths out the odds of them not getting the message and trying to duck you is miniscule.



#37 Bull City

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:48 PM

The key point is that the boat on port is obligated to signal its intentions in a timely way, in this case by clearly bearing off, or by tacking. It was clear to me that P was not going to duck under: he wasn't changing course or easing sheets. Then you have to ask yourself if he is going to tack. If you wait too long, and the answer is no, then it's likely to be too late for you to do anything. "allen" had only a few seconds to decide.

 

P had not shown his intentions by bearing off or tacking in a timely manner, so you have to assume he is not keeping a lookout to starboard or he doesn't know what he is doing or both.

 

Standards for club racing are not the same as Olympic or A.C., where the level of skippers and crew are very high among all competitors.  I don't think allen waited too long.

 

If you don't protest P, then at a minimum, somebody should have a serious chat with him.



#38 ؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:56 PM

Strange that the traveller should be pulled to the end of the track on the windward side. Suggests something about experienced sailors there?



#39 allen

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:20 PM

Strange that the traveller should be pulled to the end of the track on the windward side. Suggests something about experienced sailors there?

Typically, dumping power is the issue when we race.  We normally do it by dropping the traveler low and letting the sheet out until we get a big bubble in the main.  Some people like to take the traveler high and twist off the top of the main to dump power.  The guy in the video trimming the main is not the regular mainsheet trimmer but he did sail to Tahiti and back many years ago and has been sailing for a long time so I don't micromanage him.  Looks like he is of the second theory.



#40 ftbinc

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:24 PM

Didn't see if he stayed on port or tacked away.  What happened?

 

TOG

He continued on port and carried me well past the layline.  That is what really hurt. 

You most probably did the right thing by tacking and avoiding, BUT, if you had pulled your protest flag, hailed the required PROTEST, he may have turned his 720 and not carried you well past the layline.  If you realize later  you don't want to follow through with the protest, nothing says you must.  For a protest to be valid you must fly the flag as soon as possible, hail protest, inform the other boat as soon as possible, most likely inform the race committee after finishing, fill out the forms yada, yada yada.  you can withdraw or not press forward with your protest at any of these steps.

 

Also, this is supposed to be a self policing sport, this yahoo has been getting away with breaking rules with no consequences or doesn't understand the rules.  A few protests may help him to be a better racer and better citizen on the race course.     

 

my $.02 



#41 Brass

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:26 PM

I agree I tacked earlier than imminent although I didn't think so at the time and I continue to think I did the right thing as reviewing the tape I won that race by several minutes so didn't need a jury to help me.  Our closest competition owes us time and crossed the line behind us (they don't try hard).

 

The alternative of ducking the port boat does not appeal to me as I have seen two boats try and duck each other.  It ended in a dismasting and totaling of one of the boats.  With maybe 8 seconds to a collision had I turned toward the other boat to duck and he did the same thing, we would not have had time to avoid hitting.  At that point, it would also be difficult to judge his course as well as I would be changing course.

 

As many have suggested I duck, perhaps I am missing something.

 

Allen

What I think might have happened is that you might have temporarily lost sight of your strategic objective (to finish fastest) and got tunnel-visioned on a 'categorically imperative' but 'tactically secondary' objective to avoid collision.

 

When you first tacked onto starboard, that signified that you had made a wind/water strategic choice to go towards  the left side of the racecourse (presumbaly because you were below the port tack layline to the right end of the line, or there was a good veering shift).

 

Interboat tactics are than about executing your strategy. Avoiding collision is a given condition of your tactics, not an objective.

 

When you acquired (first noticed) the Port tacker (P), as long as there was no reason to change your strategic choice to go left (such as a backing oscillation or having reached the port tack layline), your tactical choice was whether to duck or cross P so that you could keep going left, and you needed to have been thinking about this way before collision imminent or collision unavoidable point was reached.

 

You had a furher tactical choice:  whether to follow the Stuart Walker principle of 'cross 'em when you can' and cause maximum inconvenience and disadvantage to P, or whether you would prefer to stary right away from trouble (maybe a very good choice if P is a known turkey).  One of the factors in this is whether, without you hailing or making a fuss, it is obvious that P has seen you and is prepared to keep clear (eye contact, trimmers getting in station, which will be necessary whether she intends to tack or duck, and so on).

 

Lets assume that you never were far enough advanced on P to have a good chance of crossing ahead of her by a clear margin.

 

The tactical options are then clear:  do I duck or do I make a big fuss and cross ahead.

 

Your concerns about problems with both boats bearing away are theoretically valid, however:

 

If, as in this case, P does not appear to have seen you, and you shape a course to duck below her stern, when she does see you, she will perceive that you are passing astern, and is unlikely to bear away into you.  So, if you want to duck, DON'T make a fuss hailing STARBOARD:  just do it.  Keep an eye on P and when you see them see you, give the big wave through and hail CROSS, CROSS.

 

If, on the other hand you want to take it to them and cross ahead, then hail loudly STARBOARD, AHOY STARBOARD, drum on the deck and do all that is necessary to attract their attention.  These are 40 to 50 foot boats going 6 knots in 15 kts of breeze:  a decent hail will be audible well within the distance you need (even with your long keel) to manoeuvre to avoid contact if P does fail to keep clear.

 

Now, only if P is not responding so as to keep clear, (and thus has already broken rule 10) should you be considering a collision avoidance tack.  Well, maybe you should have been 'considering' it quite a while sooner, getting crew into station, and so on as a precaution against the worst.

 

I guess what people have been saying is that, supposing you needed to go right and wanted to stay out of trouble, then you should have been footing off as soon as you saw P coming and never have got into any concern about contact.

 

.



#42 JustDroppingBy

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:01 PM

If you wanted to stay on starboard then you should have waved the other boat through and ducked him.  Just because you are the right of way boat doesn't mean you always have to engage with the give way boat.  Dave Perry teaches that it's much more important to go the direction you like unimpeded than to force boats to leebow you and screw with your air. 

 

The specifics of your tack timing onto port have been geometrically laid out above, but the real factor is what you are comfortable with or not.   If you do not feel that you had enough time to get out of harms way by waiting to tack or don't feel that you can successfully duck a port tacker, then your options are limited and you've done what you're comfortable doing.  

 

There are many levels and kinds of racing, yes.  But I don't think that a jury would find there was a foul committed from your video or your description of the incident.  And without knowing the skill level of your crew or the port tacker, it's impossible to determine just how close would have been too close.   In a one design fleet or match/team racing, this wouldn't even be brought up since it's practically miles away from a problem.  In mixed PH racing on the Bay, anything can happen, sometimes I think boat owners up here just love keeping the yards in business.



#43 Brass

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:25 PM

The key point is that the boat on port is obligated to signal its intentions in a timely way,

NO.  There is absolutely no rule (except for rule 20 for room to tack and rule 61.1( a ) for protests) that obliges a boat to signal or communicate its intentions in any way, timely or otherwise.

 

P's failure to communicate might prejudice her position with respect to S forming a reasonable apprehension of collision under Case 50, but that's just a consequence:  it's nowhere near an obligation.

If you don't protest P, then at a minimum, somebody should have a serious chat with him.

Maybe, but the alternative argument is that if you couldn't be bothered protesting a boat, you should STFU.  Answer is probably somewhere in between.



#44 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:33 PM

If you wanted to stay on starboard then you should have waved the other boat through and ducked him.  Just because you are the right of way boat doesn't mean you always have to engage with the give way boat.  Dave Perry teaches that it's much more important to go the direction you like unimpeded than to force boats to leebow you and screw with your air. 

 

The specifics of your tack timing onto port have been geometrically laid out above, but the real factor is what you are comfortable with or not.   If you do not feel that you had enough time to get out of harms way by waiting to tack or don't feel that you can successfully duck a port tacker, then your options are limited and you've done what you're comfortable doing.  

 

There are many levels and kinds of racing, yes.  But I don't think that a jury would find there was a foul committed from your video or your description of the incident.  And without knowing the skill level of your crew or the port tacker, it's impossible to determine just how close would have been too close.   In a one design fleet or match/team racing, this wouldn't even be brought up since it's practically miles away from a problem.  In mixed PH racing on the Bay, anything can happen, sometimes I think boat owners up here just love keeping the yards in business.

 

+100



#45 allen

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:22 AM

I agree I tacked earlier than imminent although I didn't think so at the time and I continue to think I did the right thing as reviewing the tape I won that race by several minutes so didn't need a jury to help me.  Our closest competition owes us time and crossed the line behind us (they don't try hard).

 

The alternative of ducking the port boat does not appeal to me as I have seen two boats try and duck each other.  It ended in a dismasting and totaling of one of the boats.  With maybe 8 seconds to a collision had I turned toward the other boat to duck and he did the same thing, we would not have had time to avoid hitting.  At that point, it would also be difficult to judge his course as well as I would be changing course.

 

As many have suggested I duck, perhaps I am missing something.

 

Allen

What I think might have happened is that you might have temporarily lost sight of your strategic objective (to finish fastest) and got tunnel-visioned on a 'categorically imperative' but 'tactically secondary' objective to avoid collision.

 

When you first tacked onto starboard, that signified that you had made a wind/water strategic choice to go towards  the left side of the racecourse (presumbaly because you were below the port tack layline to the right end of the line, or there was a good veering shift).

 

Interboat tactics are than about executing your strategy. Avoiding collision is a given condition of your tactics, not an objective.

 

When you acquired (first noticed) the Port tacker (P), as long as there was no reason to change your strategic choice to go left (such as a backing oscillation or having reached the port tack layline), your tactical choice was whether to duck or cross P so that you could keep going left, and you needed to have been thinking about this way before collision imminent or collision unavoidable point was reached.

 

You had a furher tactical choice:  whether to follow the Stuart Walker principle of 'cross 'em when you can' and cause maximum inconvenience and disadvantage to P, or whether you would prefer to stary right away from trouble (maybe a very good choice if P is a known turkey).  One of the factors in this is whether, without you hailing or making a fuss, it is obvious that P has seen you and is prepared to keep clear (eye contact, trimmers getting in station, which will be necessary whether she intends to tack or duck, and so on).

 

Lets assume that you never were far enough advanced on P to have a good chance of crossing ahead of her by a clear margin.

 

The tactical options are then clear:  do I duck or do I make a big fuss and cross ahead.

 

Your concerns about problems with both boats bearing away are theoretically valid, however:

 

If, as in this case, P does not appear to have seen you, and you shape a course to duck below her stern, when she does see you, she will perceive that you are passing astern, and is unlikely to bear away into you.  So, if you want to duck, DON'T make a fuss hailing STARBOARD:  just do it.  Keep an eye on P and when you see them see you, give the big wave through and hail CROSS, CROSS.

 

If, on the other hand you want to take it to them and cross ahead, then hail loudly STARBOARD, AHOY STARBOARD, drum on the deck and do all that is necessary to attract their attention.  These are 40 to 50 foot boats going 6 knots in 15 kts of breeze:  a decent hail will be audible well within the distance you need (even with your long keel) to manoeuvre to avoid contact if P does fail to keep clear.

 

Now, only if P is not responding so as to keep clear, (and thus has already broken rule 10) should you be considering a collision avoidance tack.  Well, maybe you should have been 'considering' it quite a while sooner, getting crew into station, and so on as a precaution against the worst.

 

I guess what people have been saying is that, supposing you needed to go right and wanted to stay out of trouble, then you should have been footing off as soon as you saw P coming and never have got into any concern about contact.

 

.

+1.  Very nice and clear explanation.  I appreciate your comments.  I guess my only defence in this situation is that virtually all my previous crossing experience is in our L-36 one design class where the other skipper is very good.  I should say skippers but it just comes down to our tow boats so skipper.  And in one design, there is no handicap advantage so you need to get the other boat to tack to gain on him.



#46 Steam Flyer

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:37 AM

The key point is that the boat on port is obligated to signal its intentions in a timely way,

 

NO.  There is absolutely no rule (except for rule 20 for room to tack and rule 61.1( a ) for protests) that obliges a boat to signal or communicate its intentions in any way, timely or otherwise.

 

 

What he said. Comunication between boats is generally a good thing but there is no rule requiring Port to let Starboard know anything.

 

 

.

 

...  Some people like to take the traveler high and twist off the top of the main to dump power.  The guy in the video trimming the main is not the regular mainsheet trimmer but he did sail to Tahiti and back many years ago and has been sailing for a long time so I don't micromanage him.  Looks like he is of the second theory.
 

 

 

If he flogged the upper section of his mainsail all the way to Tahiti, then his sailmaker was sure glad to see him arrive.

 

I have also heard this "second theory" postulated before but never from a sailor that beat me. And never seen a boat in which it worked better than keeping leach tension and twist as consistent as possible. Lots of older classics suffer from an underpowered vang and a narrow traveler, but you should do the best you can with what you got. Good vibes not micromanaging experienced sailors but a skipper should also exert leadership and mold the crew into a better team.... you can do it nicely

 

FB- Doug



#47 allen

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:45 AM

 

The key point is that the boat on port is obligated to signal its intentions in a timely way,

 

NO.  There is absolutely no rule (except for rule 20 for room to tack and rule 61.1( a ) for protests) that obliges a boat to signal or communicate its intentions in any way, timely or otherwise.

 

 

What he said. Comunication between boats is generally a good thing but there is no rule requiring Port to let Starboard know anything.

 

 

.

 

>...  Some people like to take the traveler high and twist off the top of the main to dump power.  The guy in the video trimming the main is not the regular mainsheet trimmer but he did sail to Tahiti and back many years ago and has been sailing for a long time so I don't micromanage him.  Looks like he is of the second theory.
 

 

 

If he flogged the upper section of his mainsail all the way to Tahiti, then his sailmaker was sure glad to see him arrive.

 

I have also heard this "second theory" postulated before but never from a sailor that beat me. And never seen a boat in which it worked better than keeping leach tension and twist as consistent as possible. Lots of older classics suffer from an underpowered vang and a narrow traveler, but you should do the best you can with what you got. Good vibes not micromanaging experienced sailors but a skipper should also exert leadership and mold the crew into a better team.... you can do it nicely

 

FB- Doug

 

We do better with the regular main trimmer on board.  Also, some times people who know way more than I do are harder to teach ;-)



#48 Brass

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:23 AM

 

<rambling psychobabble about tactics and strategy>.

.

+1.  Very nice and clear explanation.  I appreciate your comments.  I guess my only defence in this situation is that virtually all my previous crossing experience is in our L-36 one design class where the other skipper is very good.  I should say skippers but it just comes down to our tow boats so skipper.  And in one design, there is no handicap advantage so you need to get the other boat to tack to gain on him.

Thank you kindly.  Glad you found it helpful.

 

OK, so big race management environmental change here:

 

  • from one-design, where winning means getting and staying in front, against a good skipper, who, if you're approaching on collision course will have seen you and acted clearly and early, and who, if he's going to the right on port tack, that's probably the direction you should be going in;
  • to broad spread handicap fleet, where tactically engaging isn't necessarily the best thing to do, and there are a few skippers that it's definitely not a good idea to get too close to.

So there were a couple more dimensions to the problem than you were used to.



#49 Brass

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:27 AM

We do better with the regular main trimmer on board.  Also, some times people who know way more than I do are harder to teach ;-)

With the layout that puts the main trimmer behind the steerer there's a lot that the steerer doesn't know about.

 

I'm always amazed, when I get to visit the back of the boat, what a rich and varied array of 'interesting' stuff is going on, that I never see when I'm in pit or on trim.



#50 Steam Flyer

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:31 AM



We do better with the regular main trimmer on board.  Also, some times people who know way more than I do are harder to teach ;-)

 

 

Yeah, but if half of what he knows is wrong, then you're doing him a favor

 

FB- Doug

 

... ... broad spread handicap fleet, where tactically engaging isn't necessarily the best thing to do, and there are a few skippers that it's definitely not a good idea to get too close to.

 

A handicap race is always a game of keep-away. It's easy for the fastest boats -but- their disadvantage is that they are giving away the gusts & shifts to those who are close enough behind to take advantage. It's an axiom that "tactics consist of slowing other boats down" so the corollary is that being in traffic cannot possibly speed you up.

 

FB- Doug



#51 BalticBandit

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:31 PM

OK Doug, I'll chime in as someone who has beaten pretty damned good people with the "Traveller up"  approach (and I learned it from reading an article in the J24 class magazine by Brady).   It essentially is the same as reefing the main.  so its primarily used in boats with bendy masts where reefing the main reduces your ability to control the shape of the sail because it distorts how the luff curve matches the mast (J24s, Stars, ThunderBirds, Thistles, 49ers etc.)  In point of fact I have a very vivid memory of watching a 49er Gold Fleet start at the 1999 Worlds in which the McKees ended up in a 1on1 duel with Nikko for the win.   At the start the sun was at exactly the right angle for me to see the whole top of the McKee's main invert as they launched off the line with an almost perfect start in winds that were at the way top end of the range for 49ers (steady low 20s with gusts to high 20s).

 

Mind you on the J-24 the only time I have used it is in 30+ knots with the #3 up.  If in fact you can keep the boat on her feet with Vang Sheeting, then that's the better option because as you point out the closed leech makes pointing a lot more effective.  But sometimes closing the leech means she goes on her ear, at which point Traveler Up and twist off the top works very well in that it works in concert with feathering.  (I've also used it on a Soverel 33 with a squarehead main and shy 2 crew on the rail - and we came in 3rd overall in a 70 boat fleet that included a couple of Olympic gold medal holders)



#52 allen

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:39 PM

OK Doug, I'll chime in as someone who has beaten pretty damned good people with the "Traveller up"  approach (and I learned it from reading an article in the J24 class magazine by Brady).   It essentially is the same as reefing the main.  so its primarily used in boats with bendy masts where reefing the main reduces your ability to control the shape of the sail because it distorts how the luff curve matches the mast (J24s, Stars, ThunderBirds, Thistles, 49ers etc.)  In point of fact I have a very vivid memory of watching a 49er Gold Fleet start at the 1999 Worlds in which the McKees ended up in a 1on1 duel with Nikko for the win.   At the start the sun was at exactly the right angle for me to see the whole top of the McKee's main invert as they launched off the line with an almost perfect start in winds that were at the way top end of the range for 49ers (steady low 20s with gusts to high 20s).

 

Mind you on the J-24 the only time I have used it is in 30+ knots with the #3 up.  If in fact you can keep the boat on her feet with Vang Sheeting, then that's the better option because as you point out the closed leech makes pointing a lot more effective.  But sometimes closing the leech means she goes on her ear, at which point Traveler Up and twist off the top works very well in that it works in concert with feathering.  (I've also used it on a Soverel 33 with a squarehead main and shy 2 crew on the rail - and we came in 3rd overall in a 70 boat fleet that included a couple of Olympic gold medal holders)

That is interesting.  The owner of the T-10 I race on uses both techniques also.  He uses the one I do with traveler down until the wind really kicks up and then uses traveler up to twist off the top.  I have two full batons on my main.  I am wondering if I could get that reversed effect with a lot of twist without flogging the sail.



#53 Steam Flyer

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:50 PM

OK Doug, I'll chime in as someone who has beaten pretty damned good people with the "Traveller up"  approach (and I learned it from reading an article in the J24 class magazine by Brady).   It essentially is the same as reefing the main.  so its primarily used in boats with bendy masts where reefing the main reduces your ability to control the shape of the sail because it distorts how the luff curve matches the mast (J24s, Stars, ThunderBirds, Thistles, 49ers etc.)  In point of fact I have a very vivid memory of watching a 49er Gold Fleet start at the 1999 Worlds in which the McKees ended up in a 1on1 duel with Nikko for the win.   At the start the sun was at exactly the right angle for me to see the whole top of the McKee's main invert as they launched off the line with an almost perfect start in winds that were at the way top end of the range for 49ers (steady low 20s with gusts to high 20s).

 

Mind you on the J-24 the only time I have used it is in 30+ knots with the #3 up.  If in fact you can keep the boat on her feet with Vang Sheeting, then that's the better option because as you point out the closed leech makes pointing a lot more effective.  But sometimes closing the leech means she goes on her ear, at which point Traveler Up and twist off the top works very well in that it works in concert with feathering.  (I've also used it on a Soverel 33 with a squarehead main and shy 2 crew on the rail - and we came in 3rd overall in a 70 boat fleet that included a couple of Olympic gold medal holders)

 

That is interesting.  The owner of the T-10 I race on uses both techniques also.  He uses the one I do with traveler down until the wind really kicks up and then uses traveler up to twist off the top.  I have two full batons on my main.  I am wondering if I could get that reversed effect with a lot of twist without flogging the sail.

 

 

Goes to show that sailing is too complex to make broad statements like that. Every technique has it's place!

 

We actually did the same thing last week when a sudden & strong seabreeze kicked up heavy chop. We only had to sail about 1 1/4 miles to finish the race as the wind built past 20 and 2~3 ft waves, the course had become a close reach, we were short-handed and the only way to go was let the main and most of the genoa luff. With the vang tight, the boom kept digging into waves so we slacked it. I could not put much tension on the mainsheet or the boat wanted to weathervane. This particular boat goes a lot faster when not fighting with the rudder.

 

Allen I don't know how you could accomplish letting the sail take a big twist to depower without flogging it. The full battens take some of the sting out but it's still bad for the sail.

 

Taking in a reef would be faster but in our case we were in light air up until the door slammed and with a short distance to go, it was faster IMHO to just keep weight on the rail, play the sheets, and slug it out.

 

FB- Doug



#54 allen

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

Like when you have a full main up and it is gusting to 50?

I know, should have reefed.  This particular day we broke the hull all up so we won't do it this way again.  



#55 BalticBandit

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:12 AM

Yeah Allen , Vang off, trav up in that video would have been way more effective.  And wail the shite out of the outhaul and cunno.  Way way way too much drraft in that sail.  and yes Doug, I retired the main after winning that day -






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