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j70 vs Melges 20

j70 Melges 20

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#1 bidok

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:12 PM

what is better for amateur crew, and why? what about communities, which is more friendly? 



#2 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:36 PM

what is better for amateur crew, and why? what about communities, which is more friendly? 

 

How much money do you have?



#3 bidok

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

what is better for amateur crew, and why? what about communities, which is more friendly? 

 

How much money do you have?

50k



#4 B.Wilkinson

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:51 PM

Based out of where? How much racing experience? How willing are you to travel? What is do you want to do with the boat? Lot of other questions to ask other than just what class is friendlier...



#5 Ryley

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:05 PM

and if you're going for friendly why are you excluding the viper or U20? or are you just someone's sock looking to stir the pot?



#6 Savage 17

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:39 PM

A used M20 is in the classifieds for $30k asking price....

 

The M20 and J70 are good comparisons.

 

The viper is a fun boat, but a lot wetter. The U20 is a possibility, but OD racing isn't that big.

 

I think the J70 has already sold more then the U20 and M20 combined...more likely to get local OD with a J70, but not many used.



#7 B.Wilkinson

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:40 PM

and if you're going for friendly why are you excluding the viper or U20? or are you just someone's sock looking to stir the pot?

+1. Lots of other boats in 20 ft range with lots of fun people!



#8 schoonerman

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:58 PM

The Melges has a more technical rig, no backstay. There's been many rig failures within the M20 class too. Like I said, the rig is pretty technical...the ramps add some complication.

 

I think both boats are fairly comparable, speed wise, with the 70 being a tad faster off the breeze in reaching conditions, mostly due to the fact you can hike 2 crew (4 leg rule).

 

I think the J70 is winning the OD war in sheer numbers.

 

Having sailed both, I like each of them, leaning more toward the J, but I am biased as I sell those too.

 

Best thing you can do for yourself is go sail anything you're interested in and make and informed decision.

 

 

 

A used M20 is in the classifieds for $30k asking price....

 

The M20 and J70 are good comparisons.

 

The viper is a fun boat, but a lot wetter. The U20 is a possibility, but OD racing isn't that big.

 

I think the J70 has already sold more then the U20 and M20 combined...more likely to get local OD with a J70, but not many used.

 

Actually both the J70 and M20 are wetter than the Viper in my experience.... especially downwind. The Viper's rocker keeps the bow VERY high. You never ride back of the bus like you do on a J or M.



#9 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:23 PM

are the J/70 class rules finalized yet?



#10 ultraracer613um

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:26 PM

J70 would be my choice.  The impression I get is that the M20 is a full-on big wallet pro deal and while it sounds like a lot of J70 programs loaded up with Pro's for the early regattas- the feel I get down here is pretty amateur.  (in a good way)

 

I don't know many M20 sailors, mainly because there are non around here (or anywhere else except Miami in the winter).   Most of the J70 guys are pretty good dudes - unless LS gets' show up to stir the pot. 

 

Maybe I didn't understand the question - were you also asking about U20's and Vipers?   

 

 

 

what is better for amateur crew, and why? what about communities, which is more friendly? 



#11 Mambo Kings

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:34 PM

I think it is entirely justified to compare the J70 and M20.  They are similar boats competing for a similar market.

 

The Viper is a very different boat. The U20 competes for a very different market.

 

I sailed alongside the J70s and the Melges 20s at various times during Charleston Race Week.  There are strong similarities and significant differences. The OP mentioned "amateur". So focusing on that, the differences are:-

 

The Melges 20 only allows Amateur drivers. The helmsperson is required to be Cat 1.

The  J70 allows amateur and professional drivers, and the top helm at CRW was a pro.

 

However:-

The Melges 20 allows pro crew and the "norm" is to have at least one high end pro crew/tactician on board. In order to do well in the class you really need a pro crew. Some boats have amateur helm and all-pro crew. Some have partial pro crew.

The J70 allows pro crew but currently there are a fair sized contingent of amateur teams at J70 regattas. It was less than half amateur at Key West but more than half at CRW. 

 

Both classes seem to be having fun. The M20 has a strong winter circuit in Miami. The J70 seems to be focusing a bit more on local sailing. The J70 hasn't really experienced it first full season so its too early to see what kind of profile the J70 circuit will look like or who will emerge as the typical J70 aficionado.

 

Try them both, see which you prefer (and then buy a Viper anyways..... ;) jest kidding)



#12 Mambo Kings

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:37 PM

are the J/70 class rules finalized yet?

 

Are class rules ever finalized ? Some are waiting for the Laser class rules to be finalized



#13 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:49 PM

I understand there is still quite a bit of debate over pro/no pro driver/crew without a clear consensus on which way the owners are likely to vote.



#14 6924

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:29 PM

Er - U20 has over 250 hulls sailing.. All owned by corthian sailors. They are actively sailed.

It is unclear how many of the J/70s are dealer demos and other promo type boats. These boats don't get out much. For example - Dave Ullman's J/70 has been raced once or twice in 6 months.

Methinks it is more important to consider the rumblings of J/70 warranty claims that are quietly making the rounds. Evidently, keelboxes are getting repaired after only a few months of sailing. I also heard a nasty runour of a hull-deck joint. Cranking out 3-4 boats a week especially for an unproven design does have risks.

Everyone recalls the J/109 story of only a short while ago in which 100 hulls needed to have their keels "rebuilt".

#15 ultraracer613um

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:54 PM

Sucks to have warranty issues, but I have a soft spot for builders who appear to take care of business in a quick / professional manner. 

 

 

Er - U20 has over 250 hulls sailing.. All owned by corthian sailors. They are actively sailed.

It is unclear how many of the J/70s are dealer demos and other promo type boats. These boats don't get out much. For example - Dave Ullman's J/70 has been raced once or twice in 6 months.

Methinks it is more important to consider the rumblings of J/70 warranty claims that are quietly making the rounds. Evidently, keelboxes are getting repaired after only a few months of sailing. I also heard a nasty runour of a hull-deck joint. Cranking out 3-4 boats a week especially for an unproven design does have risks.

Everyone recalls the J/109 story of only a short while ago in which 100 hulls needed to have their keels "rebuilt".



#16 port tack

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:00 PM

The M20 has a ton of professionals in it and owners with deep deep pockets.  Don't know how the J70 class is, if it is like most J boats classes the top boats will have rich owners with pros helping and some good weekend warriors mixed in.  So if it was me I would go with the J70 and have a shot at a good finish.  Just my .02 cents



#17 Soley

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:16 PM

I would pick the M20 purely because it doesn't have the retarded looking keel...



#18 Mambo Kings

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:16 PM

I would pick the M20 purely because Ultra picks the J70.

 

But then I reserve the right to change my mind in case he goes for the M20 instead.

 

Seriously, try both.

The Melges offers more of a full service, entertainment package. They don't leave a rule like owner/pro/driver hanging out there. They define the experience they want to give to their customers and then control it carefully, including organizing the regattas, running the class association, writing the rules, hosting the parties, finding the sponsors, providing training and practice sessions before regattas etc.

The J70 leaves more at the discretion to the local dealers and lets the owners mold the experience.  Its very clear that the J70 is here with traction because they have sold so many boats. But the comments that we don't really know  what the circuit will look like in 2 years time is probably correct. Clean's comments about the rules echo this.  With Melges you kinda knew what was coming, because they defined it and then Harry and  Andy executed the plan they laid out.    

Two different approaches to a similar platform, so folks can take their choice and over time we will see how each one works out



#19 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:52 PM

and if you're going for friendly why are you excluding the viper or U20? or are you just someone's sock looking to stir the pot?


ROTFL.......

#20 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:55 PM

J70 faster off the wind? Or at any point of sail? That's pretty funny (and yes, very biased). The J70 is an absolute pig. End of story.

The Melges has a more technical rig, no backstay. There's been many rig failures within the M20 class too. Like I said, the rig is pretty technical...the ramps add some complication.
 
I think both boats are fairly comparable, speed wise, with the 70 being a tad faster off the breeze in reaching conditions, mostly due to the fact you can hike 2 crew (4 leg rule).
 
I think the J70 is winning the OD war in sheer numbers.
 
Having sailed both, I like each of them, leaning more toward the J, but I am biased as I sell those too.
 
Best thing you can do for yourself is go sail anything you're interested in and make and informed decision.
 
 
 

A used M20 is in the classifieds for $30k asking price....
 
The M20 and J70 are good comparisons.
 
The viper is a fun boat, but a lot wetter. The U20 is a possibility, but OD racing isn't that big.
 
I think the J70 has already sold more then the U20 and M20 combined...more likely to get local OD with a J70, but not many used.

 
Actually both the J70 and M20 are wetter than the Viper in my experience.... especially downwind. The Viper's rocker keeps the bow VERY high. You never ride back of the bus like you do on a J or M.


#21 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:58 PM

Exactly right.

I understand there is still quite a bit of debate over pro/no pro driver/crew without a clear consensus on which way the owners are likely to vote.



#22 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:59 PM

And looks like it was conceived in 1996. Oh and by the way definitely sails as if it was from 1996.

I would pick the M20 purely because it doesn't have the retarded looking keel...



#23 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 04:06 PM

Check it out. 15-20 kts of wind speed downwind with only 3 crew and the pig (J-70) is not even close to planing. Pathetic, in every way.



#24 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 04:25 PM

In contrast, the VXOD, Viper 640 and Melges 20. The first two in roughly HALF THE WINDSPEED -

- with a fractional kite of course





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The J70 is a PIG.

#25 Lewdicrous Speed

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

How do they compare to a Butterfly?



#26 JBSF

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:37 AM

and if you're going for friendly why are you excluding the viper or U20? or are you just someone's sock looking to stir the pot?

+1. Lots of other boats in 20 ft range with lots of fun people!

 

I don't undertstand this mentality.  The guy asked a simple question, why is it assumed its pot stirring?  Maybe after looking around at the possibilities, he narrowed it down to the two boats he asked about.  If you have nothing to offer about either boat, then STFU.  Yes, there are other boats with fun people.  But that wasn't the question.  Are you just butthurt because he wasn't interested in your boat?



#27 Ryley

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 01:53 AM

 

and if you're going for friendly why are you excluding the viper or U20? or are you just someone's sock looking to stir the pot?

+1. Lots of other boats in 20 ft range with lots of fun people!

 

I don't undertstand this mentality.  The guy asked a simple question, why is it assumed its pot stirring?  Maybe after looking around at the possibilities, he narrowed it down to the two boats he asked about.  If you have nothing to offer about either boat, then STFU.  Yes, there are other boats with fun people.  But that wasn't the question.  Are you just butthurt because he wasn't interested in your boat?

The mentality is that he asked for a friendly group of OD sailors and then narrowed it down to the two ODs that pretty much require at least one pro in order to do well. I don't give a crap whether he likes my boat or not. That wasn't the question. I just thought that if he were really looking for a boat that's fun with fun people in it, there are a lot of choices besides the J70 and the M20. 

 

Regarding the pot-stirring, there have been plenty of threads that have been started about the suitability of the J70 or M20 for various functions. This just seemed to be yet another attempt to manufacture a controversy where none exists. So since you seem to think I should STFU if I don't have something to add about either boat, tell me what type of boat the attached core picture is from. Hint, it's a new boat and the core came from just in front of the keel. For the amount of money that these boats cost, I would expect better construction than this. PS. this was one of TWO voids in the same core section.

 

http://picpaste.com/photo_2.JPG

 

For some reason it won't embed, but there ya go.



#28 crash

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 02:14 AM

I think you got that wrong. It doesn't require a pro to do well, but because pro's are allowed, and because they are generally better sailors, they tend to do well. Which would make you feel better. going out and beating Tim Healy in one race, or winning more often against other Corinthians like you? No wrong answer here. Answer's probably different for everyone. But pro's being able to race in the class isn't necessarily bad. Pro panel at recent raceweek for the J/70 class and subsequent tuning tips help every amateur in the class methinks...

#29 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:29 AM

Butterfly is almost certainly faster on all points of sail. So is a sunfish most likely.

How do they compare to a Butterfly?



#30 Ryley

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 12:35 PM

I think you got that wrong. It doesn't require a pro to do well, but because pro's are allowed, and because they are generally better sailors, they tend to do well. Which would make you feel better. going out and beating Tim Healy in one race, or winning more often against other Corinthians like you? No wrong answer here. Answer's probably different for everyone. But pro's being able to race in the class isn't necessarily bad. Pro panel at recent raceweek for the J/70 class and subsequent tuning tips help every amateur in the class methinks...

semantics. The classes allow pros, pros are generally better sailors, pros finish higher. So yeah, does it feel good to beat a Boston or Healy? Of course. Will the majority of corinthian sailors do that more than a handful of times? probably not. these boats aren't cheap, and to then have to spend more for a pro on board to be competitive? Well.. like you said, there's no wrong answer, though I know my preference.



#31 Icebear

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 01:22 PM

Butterfly is almost certainly faster on all points of sail. So is a sunfish most likely.

How do they compare to a Butterfly?


Portsmouth Yardstick
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My 1932 woodie Town Class: 97.3

#32 frostbit

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:58 PM

Check it out. 15-20 kts of wind speed downwind with only 3 crew and the pig (J-70) is not even close to planing. Pathetic, in every way.


You run an impressively myopic mis-information campaign.

#33 schoonerman

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

Anyone doubting how much fun the J70 is in breeze come to Big Boat Series in SF Bay this year. We're working on a start for 70's and hope to be running in front of the club starting room on the City Front...woohoo!

#34 Speedskater

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:51 PM

Photo of J/70's washing their spinnakers at Cleveland Race Week.

 

https://www.facebook...&type=3



#35 ultraracer613um

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:37 PM

My first reaction to that picture was "hmm, looks a lot like a sportboat to me!".  But then I realized - the keels not out of the water.  

 

Maybe the just need a viper sailor to show them how to crash properly.   Hell, i'll bet the spreaders didn't even get wet.

 

Rookies

 

 

Photo of J/70's washing their spinnakers at Cleveland Race Week.

 

https://www.facebook...&type=3



#36 schoonerman

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:56 PM

My first reaction to that picture was "hmm, looks a lot like a sportboat to me!".  But then I realized - the keels not out of the water.  
 
Maybe the just need a viper sailor to show them how to crash properly.   Hell, i'll bet the spreaders didn't even get wet.
 
Rookies
 
 

Photo of J/70's washing their spinnakers at Cleveland Race Week.
 
https://www.facebook...&type=3


ROFLMAO Jonesy.

Spreaders are WAY to dry and there's no one edging over to stand on the keel...WTF?

#37 RockHead

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:14 PM

It's not REALLY a worthy broach until you knock the Windex off with a wave...

And I am a master of that trick, right Schoon?

#38 ultraracer613um

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:53 PM

Yes well...  if the J70 guys want to be part of the cool club (sportboaters) - they need to polish up on this skill.

 

Can I recommend that at the next joint regatta a few of the viper wipeout artists offer a clinic?  Assuming there's enough breeze? 

 

mambo - can you take point on this?    Show them how you hang onto the stern while your young crew climbs out on the bulb.  Make sure any elder forwards know all the appropriate curse words.

 

 

It's not REALLY a worthy broach until you knock the Windex off with a wave...

And I am a master of that trick, right Schoon?



#39 Mambo Kings

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:44 PM

In 15 years of sailing Vipers and many broaches, I have never had to stand on the keel or send anyone out to stand on the keel. However I have done more than my fair share of swimming and washing spreaders. Memorable moments include walking backwards  off the back of the boat while hauling on the retrieval line. Hiking hard, breaking the straps and surfacing with mainsheet and the stub of my carbon tiller extension in my hand only to hear the rapidly disappearing voice of my crew say "soak down a bit here ", watching rock head  walk out along the mainsail to retrieve the spin halyard and then watching him get flipped in a beautiful arc into the ocean as the boat righted  , the infamous arse over tit in the final race at Sarnia (and the nauseous sound of three Texans giggling like schoolchildren as they sailed by), I wouldn't have missed a moment of it!  

 

Unlike Ultra and Olaf , I can also say that I have never "dropped" my bulb to the bottom of the lake!  

 

I thought the whole idea of the J70 was a sport boat for folks who don't like sport boats.



#40 ultraracer613um

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 09:49 PM

Now as I hear it Olaf, being the engineer he is - did some hydrodynamic analysis and came to the conclusion that his boat would be faster if the keel had a flatter surface on the bottom.  So during the night he employed a creative technique to grind it down?

 

I just thought the boat would be faster without it.

 

But here we go - hijacking a perfectly good M20 / J70 thread.  Shame on us. 

 

 

 

 

In 15 years of sailing Vipers and many broaches, I have never had to stand on the keel or send anyone out to stand on the keel. However I have done more than my fair share of swimming and washing spreaders. Memorable moments include walking backwards  off the back of the boat while hauling on the retrieval line. Hiking hard, breaking the straps and surfacing with mainsheet and the stub of my carbon tiller extension in my hand only to hear the rapidly disappearing voice of my crew say "soak down a bit here ", watching rock head  walk out along the mainsail to retrieve the spin halyard and then watching him get flipped in a beautiful arc into the ocean as the boat righted  , the infamous arse over tit in the final race at Sarnia (and the nauseous sound of three Texans giggling like schoolchildren as they sailed by), I wouldn't have missed a moment of it!  

 

Unlike Ultra and Olaf , I can also say that I have never "dropped" my bulb to the bottom of the lake!  

 

I thought the whole idea of the J70 was a sport boat for folks who don't like sport boats.



#41 Mambo Kings

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 12:20 PM

Olaf is an MIT geek so he likes to do original research.

 

His crew also did a buoyancy test on his keel at Newport and by unscrewing the two center bolts (as opposed to the fore and aft bolt) they conclusively proved (a) The Viper keel does not float and  (b The Viper is not self righting without the keel.  



#42 RockHead

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:15 PM

Olaf is an MIT geek so he likes to do original research.
 
His crew also did a buoyancy test on his keel at Newport and by unscrewing the two center bolts (as opposed to the fore and aft bolt) they conclusively proved (a) The Viper keel does not float and  (b The Viper is not self righting without the keel.  

And now I'm wiping lemonade spew off my tablet, thank you.

#43 Timbo

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:34 PM

That trick is not limited to a MIT degree...  Exact same thing happened @ LBRW a couple of years ago.. give new crew cresent wrench.. "take out keel bolts",,,,, I would have loved to see the look on the crew's face when that last thread came off... The Viper keels do stand up nicely on the bottom though... looked like a headstone in the mud. :P

Olaf is an MIT geek so he likes to do original research.

 

His crew also did a buoyancy test on his keel at Newport and by unscrewing the two center bolts (as opposed to the fore and aft bolt) they conclusively proved (a) The Viper keel does not float and  (b The Viper is not self righting without the keel.  



#44 ultraracer613um

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:23 PM

at least it's just lemonade spew this time.  good thing there are no keys on your tablet, they'd be all stuck together by now.

 

Olaf is an MIT geek so he likes to do original research.
 
His crew also did a buoyancy test on his keel at Newport and by unscrewing the two center bolts (as opposed to the fore and aft bolt) they conclusively proved (a) The Viper keel does not float and  (b The Viper is not self righting without the keel.  

And now I'm wiping lemonade spew off my tablet, thank you.


#45 NextExit

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:52 AM

Do we need to label the 2 center bolts "not these"?



#46 Mambo Kings

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:44 PM

Do we need to label the 2 center bolts "not these"?

 

The crew person who let Olaf's keel "go" (someone who I confess I enjoy sailing with) could benefit from useful labels all over the boat:

Main Halyard:  "Do not release THIS to dowse spinnaker" 

Label on transom "Do not go aft of here....even when taking a piss"

Hiking Straps "Feet in here"

Spinnaker Retrieval line "Not Here"

 

But the girls love him.



#47 Mambo Kings

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:55 PM

I don't know which is the more friendly community between the M20 and the J70, but I have to admit to some great shared moments in the Viper class. 



#48 schoonerman

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:48 PM

M20 and J70 guys here in NorCal are all great guys. There is no M20 class and the J70 class is just starting to build....we're WAY west of Rhode Island...so boats are finally making it here in numbers. 4 coming in August.

I've never raced a M20 or J70 fleet event. I've done plenty of M24 stuff and I can honestly say that while they're great guys, the front of the fleet never shares their mojo with the back of the fleet. Viper peloton is always working to tighten things up, bring up the level of competition. This may happen in M20 and J70, I just haven't seen it. Maybe some fleeties there can chime in.

#49 JBSF

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:57 AM



 I've done plenty of M24 stuff and I can honestly say that while they're great guys, the front of the fleet never shares their mojo with the back of the fleet. Viper peloton is always working to tighten things up, bring up the level of competition.

 

This seems to me to be the key to an enduring OD fleet.  I can't imagine the top guys feeling threatened by the weekend sailors if they give away some of their tuning secrets.  Because at the end of the day it will still come down to the better sailing ability.  I would think the top guys would welcome the back enders moving up so it gives them better competition and closer racing.  But I can't see how a top fleet guy is going to get beaten consistently by a lessor sailor just because they share their rig tune numbers or give tips on trimming. 

 

I would think if the results are always predetermined at the beginning of the season because the top guys know the secrets and the mid-packers don't.... the mid-packers leave the fleet and the numbers die off.  Meaning the top guys eventually leave too as the fleet dwindles...... its a vicious cycle.  I personally would rather win knowing it was skill and ability rather than because I found the magic combo of rig tune numbers and sail trim tweaks.  Just my $.02

 

Edit:  good on the Vipers for doing this.



#50 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:28 PM

.

the other reason OD gods clam up is because they are the one pushing beyond the envelope

 

fully faired e22 and mumms etc , sm says good guys, i say fucking cheats



#51 RockHead

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:36 PM

I was invited to club race on a local Viper this weekend. Spent some time in the boat park going over set up and rig tune. Talked about some equipment optimizations their older boat could use.

Left the dock early to practice. Showed them proper weight placement. Taught them some different options for crew work on spin sets.

Talked through the first douse. "Wait, you pull the clew around the forestay for a weather douse?" Followed shortly by, "Wow! That's a lot easier!"

Another set, few gybes.
Me, "Let's try a Mexican douse this time."
Crew, "What's that?" Then, "Holy crap that's easy!" By the end of the day, with the usual driver in the middle, we were doing a Mexican as the bow went around the leeward mark. Awesome!

Replacement hiking straps on order so the crew can actually hike while in the proper place. I don't think the forward crew has ever actually hiked on this boat. Aft split tail mainsheet also happening. Amazing how 2-3 degrees of lost pointing ability costs many boat lengths on a mile long beat. Add the inability to hike properly... Big leap for this Viper this weekend I think. :-)

Fun day. I love coaching!

#52 EYESAILOR

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 12:28 PM

I was invited to club race on a local Viper this weekend. Spent some time in the boat park going over set up and rig tune. Talked about some equipment optimizations their older boat could use.

Left the dock early to practice. Showed them proper weight placement. Taught them some different options for crew work on spin sets.

Talked through the first douse. "Wait, you pull the clew around the forestay for a weather douse?" Followed shortly by, "Wow! That's a lot easier!"

Another set, few gybes.
Me, "Let's try a Mexican douse this time."
Crew, "What's that?" Then, "Holy crap that's easy!" By the end of the day, with the usual driver in the middle, we were doing a Mexican as the bow went around the leeward mark. Awesome!

Replacement hiking straps on order so the crew can actually hike while in the proper place. I don't think the forward crew has ever actually hiked on this boat. Aft split tail mainsheet also happening. Amazing how 2-3 degrees of lost pointing ability costs many boat lengths on a mile long beat. Add the inability to hike properly... Big leap for this Viper this weekend I think. :-)

Fun day. I love coaching!

 

and this helps me choose between the J70 and the Melges 20 because ????

 

If I started a thread seeking help on trying to decide between a TP52 and a Farr 40 you can be sure that it wouldn't be long before the Viper pack would descend on the thread telling me that what I really need is a Viper.



#53 Mambo Kings

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 12:37 PM

I was invited to club race on a local Viper this weekend. Spent some time in the boat park going over set up and rig tune. Talked about some equipment optimizations their older boat could use.

Left the dock early to practice. Showed them proper weight placement. Taught them some different options for crew work on spin sets.

Talked through the first douse. "Wait, you pull the clew around the forestay for a weather douse?" Followed shortly by, "Wow! That's a lot easier!"

Another set, few gybes.
Me, "Let's try a Mexican douse this time."
Crew, "What's that?" Then, "Holy crap that's easy!" By the end of the day, with the usual driver in the middle, we were doing a Mexican as the bow went around the leeward mark. Awesome!

Replacement hiking straps on order so the crew can actually hike while in the proper place. I don't think the forward crew has ever actually hiked on this boat. Aft split tail mainsheet also happening. Amazing how 2-3 degrees of lost pointing ability costs many boat lengths on a mile long beat. Add the inability to hike properly... Big leap for this Viper this weekend I think. :-)

Fun day. I love coaching!

 

and this helps me choose between the J70 and the Melges 20 because ????

 

If I started a thread seeking help on trying to decide between a TP52 and a Farr 40 you can be sure that it wouldn't be long before the Viper pack would descend on the thread telling me that what I really need is a Viper.

 

Eye,   if you ever start a thread rather than firing off your punchy one-liners on other threads, then I promise to "descend" on it.

Any closer to deciding on which boat you are going to buy?  



#54 RockHead

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 03:55 AM

Eye, Sail them all. Hang out with the fleets at a regatta or two. Pick the combination of people and boat that most suits you and your preferences. In the end, that's what it comes down to, not chatter here.

#55 jokerx9

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:25 AM

Eye - they both suck so I dont think people telling you to look at a viper is te worst thing in the world. 



#56 schoonerman

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 03:49 PM

Eye,

I have a dog in this hunt so keep that in mind with everything I say. I don't want to piss any of my friends off that have M20's but here we go.

The M20 is very technical to sail in a blow. I think the rig failure thing is pretty well documented. The two guys I know with M20's in SF Bay...each has lost at least two rigs. Don't get me wrong, the M20 is hoot to sail. Lights up well, fun to be legs in (albeit slow comparatively to legs out) and you'll find a LOT of great sailors in the fleet due to the ability for pro's to participate. Build quality is quite good. They've figured out a dousing system for the kite which makes the boat more fun around the cans.

The J70 is a different beast. Very predictable. Really much like a mini-j105 except it planes...given enough breeze. Maybe better said a mini-j111 which will also plane...given enough breeze. Rig is pretty stout and quite simple to tune. Backstay helps a lot here, particularly with guys/gals who aren't familiar with tripod rigs.

Not sure where you live but bottom line, if you're racing one-design and M20's are dominant, go with that one.

If you want to sail a J70 in a blow, come to SF and I'll be happy to oblige. I can hook you up with local M20 guys too.

#57 Soley

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:16 PM

So after consideration, I am going to wait until the sales of the J70 plateau, then be one of the first to buy the 'new' J68....



#58 Varan

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 10:04 PM

The J75 is next.

It is time for J Boats to give up the decimeter model line and start a new one with so many more possibilities, like centimeters. Others, like the Viper and Shaw already have. Just think of all the new models J Boats could introduce, and the marketing... like the new J666, "fast as the devil" (too politically correct to say hell).

#59 schoonerman

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:23 PM

We already sell them in Rupees....new J70 is 3268647.84318

#60 mcswimboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

what is the PHRF rating for a M20?  think the J/70 is 117



#61 ols

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:01 PM

what is the PHRF rating for a M20?  think the J/70 is 117

 

We compiled some sportboat PHRF ratings a few months ago and found a median Melges 20 rating of 111



#62 1sailor

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:03 PM

what is the PHRF rating for a M20?  think the J/70 is 117

 

We compiled some sportboat PHRF ratings a few months ago and found a median Melges 20 rating of 111

I believe that is the great lakes number as well.

 

Hasnt been much local PHRF activity in the Melges 20 around here but things may be looking up fairly soon as there are now 8 of 'em owned by MBYC members...  

 

The bit of racing that has occurred in the past few years indicates a few of the grand-prix level, regatta circuit M 20 programs with new sails cannot come close to hanging with the grassroots-level Melges 24's in PHRF.  111 is just way too high an expectation

 

Seems like in planing conditions it gets closer to being reasonable but otherwise the thing looks like a 126 rater in my opinion

 

How have the J/70's fared at the 117 number ?   Do they get around the course faster than a M20 ?   Has anyone lined up the two boats yet ?



#63 White Wing

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

111 was our number in PNW and - especially given the typical 5-12kn wind range here -- it was really hard to sail to the rating.  No plane = deep in the fleet with 100% confidence.  12kn+ and we did better, but even then it was very difficult to sail against 30'+ boats that can sail DDW fast (Olson 30 for example).  

 

In PHRF regattas in Seattle the M24's sail in their own class for the most part....when we sailed against them it was tough to stay within 48 sec on a 4 mile WL twice around course.  

 

I'm with 1sailor - the 111 rating is tough and my guess is that 117 for the J/70 is going to be equally tough....it's just hard to put planing sportboats into a system that is suited to displacement hulls that behave similarly in a wide range of wind speeds.

 

WWing



#64 Streetwise

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:08 PM

Our mixed sportboat fleet includes 2 x Viper 640, 1 x VX One, 1 x Melges 20, and 2 x J/70. Results here:

 

2013 Race Results

 

Wednesdays and Mondays have the most participation.

 

Cheers,

 

jason



#65 White Wing

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:36 PM

Our mixed sportboat fleet includes 2 x Viper 640, 1 x VX One, 1 x Melges 20, and 2 x J/70. Results here:

 

2013 Race Results

 

Wednesdays and Mondays have the most participation.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

 

I think you hit the main point really --- sportboats are best racing against other sporties, and not sailing vs. displacement boats.  Then it doesn't really matter what the PHRF rating is - only the diff in rating between sporties matters.  The differences of 6sec/mi between M20 and J/70 (in favor of the J) seem reasonable...same as the diff between Vipers and M20.

 

WWing 



#66 Stuff4Toys

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:37 PM

I've been following this thread as it has digressed from the original post, so here goes another tangent.

 

Are there any garage built; kits or plans, for boats that will come close to competing with these boats?



#67 Christian

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:04 AM

WOW - looks like you are getting schooled by the J70 guys..........................seriously??????

Our mixed sportboat fleet includes 2 x Viper 640, 1 x VX One, 1 x Melges 20, and 2 x J/70. Results here:

 

2013 Race Results

 

Wednesdays and Mondays have the most participation.

 

Cheers,

 

jason



#68 Timbo

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:05 AM

You can get Shaw, Leech or Thompson plans.. they will spank both of these boats.

 

i550 kits are probably just a bit slower

 

be advised, they may not be PHRF legal in some areas.... :ph34r:



#69 Streetwise

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:49 AM

I have been training all new sportboat crew and I have been moving from crewing to driving. We also haven't had the big wind to break out downwind as much as we would like. The J/70s are very strong in the light and flukey winds and they will do well on this lake, and their skippers have 15-20 more years of experience than I do.

 

I am happy to take the criticism, and I still have a lot to learn. Until this year, I was on the only Viper and the Melges 20 rarely raced, so we could only judge our performance against J/29s and J/92s. Every week I sail against these other sportboats I get faster (and so do the others). We are starting to make the J/70s try to beat us on corrected time instead of real time.

 

I'm looking forward to the big wind days, that's for sure.

 

Besides all that, I am happy to share our results so the OP and others can check out the J/70 vs the Melges 20 with other sportboats as a reference. Next years results will probably be a more grounded source of comparison.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

 

WOW - looks like you are getting schooled by the J70 guys..........................seriously??????

Our mixed sportboat fleet includes 2 x Viper 640, 1 x VX One, 1 x Melges 20, and 2 x J/70. Results here:

 

2013 Race Results

 

Wednesdays and Mondays have the most participation.

 

Cheers,

 

jason



#70 Christian

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:50 AM

Jason,

 

I wasn't trying to piss in your Wheaties - I was seriously surprised.  Especially in light air you should be crushing the J70's

I have been training all new sportboat crew and I have been moving from crewing to driving. We also haven't had the big wind to break out downwind as much as we would like. The J/70s are very strong in the light and flukey winds and they will do well on this lake, and their skippers have 15-20 more years of experience than I do.

 

I am happy to take the criticism, and I still have a lot to learn. Until this year, I was on the only Viper and the Melges 20 rarely raced, so we could only judge our performance against J/29s and J/92s. Every week I sail against these other sportboats I get faster (and so do the others). We are starting to make the J/70s try to beat us on corrected time instead of real time.

 

I'm looking forward to the big wind days, that's for sure.

 

Besides all that, I am happy to share our results so the OP and others can check out the J/70 vs the Melges 20 with other sportboats as a reference. Next years results will probably be a more grounded source of comparison.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

 

 

WOW - looks like you are getting schooled by the J70 guys..........................seriously??????

Our mixed sportboat fleet includes 2 x Viper 640, 1 x VX One, 1 x Melges 20, and 2 x J/70. Results here:

 

2013 Race Results

 

Wednesdays and Mondays have the most participation.

 

Cheers,

 

jason



#71 Jerryd

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:37 AM

I probably wouldn't using the term "crushing", but it should not be difficult at all to beat the J70's on elapsed time in any winds. But keep trying. There's nothing like time in the boat!

#72 ultraracer613um

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:31 PM

Stick with it Jason. It took us several seasons before we were able to beat the local j80s on corrected. And we had a good deal of experience. Ya Christian, were hacks...

J70s are faster than people give them credit for.

I often find i gain more personal satisfaction from improving than winning. Make it your goal to have gains each season but don't get too wrapped up in winning all the time. I don't know how guys like Christian who are at the top of their game and just crush every time they go out and race keep interest.

You might Tell justin your having trouble with the Vx and he will hire a coach for you - if he can't make it himself.

And remember- Texas weather is better than Vermont weather in October. ;-)



I have been training all new sportboat crew and I have been moving from crewing to driving. We also haven't had the big wind to break out downwind as much as we would like. The J/70s are very strong in the light and flukey winds and they will do well on this lake, and their skippers have 15-20 more years of experience than I do.
 
I am happy to take the criticism, and I still have a lot to learn. Until this year, I was on the only Viper and the Melges 20 rarely raced, so we could only judge our performance against J/29s and J/92s. Every week I sail against these other sportboats I get faster (and so do the others). We are starting to make the J/70s try to beat us on corrected time instead of real time.
 
I'm looking forward to the big wind days, that's for sure.
 
Besides all that, I am happy to share our results so the OP and others can check out the J/70 vs the Melges 20 with other sportboats as a reference. Next years results will probably be a more grounded source of comparison.
 
Cheers,
 
jason
 


WOW - looks like you are getting schooled by the J70 guys..........................seriously??????


Our mixed sportboat fleet includes 2 x Viper 640, 1 x VX One, 1 x Melges 20, and 2 x J/70. Results here:
 
2013 Race Results
 
Wednesdays and Mondays have the most participation.
 
Cheers,
 
jason



#73 Streetwise

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:16 PM

Thanks guys. I don't take any of this personally. Jeff, my personal improvement goal this year is learning to drive fast. I spent most of my time on my previous co-owned Viper doing crew work because we sailed two up and I loved having so many jobs to do and getting to look around and call tactics. I would drive a few times a year and do pretty well, especially upwind, but I didn't fully master the tacking and gybing mechanics in terms of what to do with my hands and feet and exchanging the mainsheet and the tiller extension.

 

This year I started with a brand new crew, the three of us weighing in at 490 lbs total. One guy had tons of sailing experience in Lasers and foredeck on bigger boats, but not much in small boat crewing. Another guy was completely brand new to any sort of sailing, but he wanted to learn and committed to making all the races. I told him that attendance is more important to me than skill!

 

I put my Laser buddy on the tiller while I called tactics and taught everyone else how to sail a Viper (which I learned from Justin S, Jeff J, and Dan T, and long distance via the folks on the class site). Then my Laser buddy moved to RI, and I picked up another guy who has sailed everything and done instruction and everything else. I had him drive a race or two while I just watched and learned from his driving mechanics. Now I have jumped on the tiller and main, since I can trust him with the rest of the boat and training the newbie and giving excellent advice (like "don't spill your beers" for my driving hands). Now I am tacking well, passing the main and tiller behind my back, learning to drive downwind with the main, and getting sense memory for my tacking and gybing angles. It feels good to be able to fully trust my crew so that I can keep my mind on the telltales, our angle of heel and the pressure I see and feel. I'm sure this is a transition lots of racers have gone thru!

 

Back to the general topic, the J/70 guys tell me they are having a blast and they love getting a chance to go head to head with another of their kind each week while also battling the rest of the sportboat fleet. They've thanked me for organizing this and I've thanked them for helping us get the numbers to make this happen. I am loving having another Viper to match with, besides competing against the rest of the fleet. I think the VX matches quite well with the Vipers and I think the owner may have gotten his crew situation figured out. The Melges 20 doesn't have a direct matchup, but they are using every race as an opportunity to train for their Melges travel circuit. We will probably see more J/70s up here, but probably not more Melges 20s. And more used Vipers for budget racers like me!

 

The other infrequent sportboats haven't come out to play yet. The Open 5.70 in the area is owned by a good sailor whose business is far too successful and he now has a young family, so I expect him to move to something like a J/88 or maybe a Dart. If anyone wants to buy his Open 5.70, I think it should find a home with the west coast fleet. The Open 5.00 here is owned by a guy who crews Wednesdays and weekends on a Swede 55, but he plans to come out for the rest of our Monday series. The nearby Rocket 22 in Canada might come over for a race. If it doesn't happen this year, then next year I plan on organizing a weekend-long W/L series for our sportboat fleet, since not all the boats seem to want to do our open lake navigational races (the Vipers do!). And finally I am waiting for one of the J/70 guys to sell his J/92s, because he keeps splitting his time between the boats. He is good enough to win in either boat, but he's getting DNCs in one while he kicks ass in the other. We need him more in the sportboat fleet! :)

 

I am especially loving seeing keelboat owners hungry to get crew spots on the Monday night series when their own boats are idle.

 

Cheers,

 

jason



#74 zerothehero

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:24 PM

Last night Jason horizon jobbed most of the boats out there is a challenging south breeze that was anywhere from 12-25.  They looked real good.  We were way too light on the VX and got crushed going uphill.



#75 czo79

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:53 PM

Gah, yeah, that was embarrassing.  We got schooled both uphill and downhill.  Uphill I would have expected, given they were sailing four up and we two up, but we made a habit of washing the masthead on about four of our jibes.  We also got a lousy start and picked the wrong side of the course the first two legs.  Oh well, in that kind of breeze, it's so much fun it hardly matters.  Let's hope we get another one or two honking days like that this season.

- Czo

blowing my anonymity, I'm crew on Mojito, the other viper.



#76 Jerryd

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:39 AM

Where was Windtrip?



#77 Streetwise

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:13 AM

They went to NC for the Fourth of July. Hopefully back for Monday!

 

Wednesday was fun: http://player.vimeo.com/video/70153114

 

Cheers



#78 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 12:27 PM

Jason,

 

I wasn't trying to piss in your Wheaties - I was seriously surprised.  Especially in light air you should be crushing the J70's 

And you should lose 75 pounds so you can fit on a sportboat.

 

People who use the word "should" are generally pretty douchey.



#79 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 12:30 PM

Jason do you have any good pics from your fleet?  Your little writeup is a good 'how-to' for folks looking to get sporties together in their area, and I'd like to draw some attention to it.  A pic of yer fleet would help.



#80 Streetwise

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:05 PM

Clean, I'm hoping for full attendance for our next Monday Night Etchells/Sportboat series next week. I'll try to some shots in the lot and a camera on the committee boat. We had a high school sailor with us on Wednesday, and there is another guy who will be jumping in on one of the boats next week, so this is proving a good way to keep young sailors interested in the sport!

 

I'd be happy to write something up for you too.

 

Cheers,

 

jason



#81 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:10 PM

Well I'd love to see it mate and it'll go straight to the front page if you want to put something specific together based on what you wrote above. There are lots of folks wanting to do the same, even if they don't know it yet. 



#82 Ryley

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:44 PM

I've been following this thread as it has digressed from the original post, so here goes another tangent.

 

Are there any garage built; kits or plans, for boats that will come close to competing with these boats?

Donovan 20.



#83 Christian

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:41 PM

I fit just fine you dickhead

 

Jason,

 

I wasn't trying to piss in your Wheaties - I was seriously surprised.  Especially in light air you should be crushing the J70's 

And you should lose 75 pounds so you can fit on a sportboat.

 

People who use the word "should" are generally pretty douchey.



#84 LDD

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:45 AM

J70 faster off the wind? Or at any point of sail? That's pretty funny (and yes, very biased). The J70 is an absolute pig. End of story.


The Melges has a more technical rig, no backstay. There's been many rig failures within the M20 class too. Like I said, the rig is pretty technical...the ramps add some complication.
 
I think both boats are fairly comparable, speed wise, with the 70 being a tad faster off the breeze in reaching conditions, mostly due to the fact you can hike 2 crew (4 leg rule).
 
I think the J70 is winning the OD war in sheer numbers.
 
Having sailed both, I like each of them, leaning more toward the J, but I am biased as I sell those too.
 
Best thing you can do for yourself is go sail anything you're interested in and make and informed decision.
 
 
 


A used M20 is in the classifieds for $30k asking price....
 
The M20 and J70 are good comparisons.
 
The viper is a fun boat, but a lot wetter. The U20 is a possibility, but OD racing isn't that big.
 
I think the J70 has already sold more then the U20 and M20 combined...more likely to get local OD with a J70, but not many used.

 
Actually both the J70 and M20 are wetter than the Viper in my experience.... especially downwind. The Viper's rocker keeps the bow VERY high. You never ride back of the bus like you do on a J or M.


#85 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

I fit just fine you dickhead

yeah but where do the other guys sit



#86 hendrixharlow

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:10 PM

Clean, I'm hoping for full attendance for our next Monday Night Etchells/Sportboat series next week. I'll try to some shots in the lot and a camera on the committee boat. We had a high school sailor with us on Wednesday, and there is another guy who will be jumping in on one of the boats next week, so this is proving a good way to keep young sailors interested in the sport!

 

I'd be happy to write something up for you too.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

 

Jason, it's been great reading about your sportboat fleet up north..  There was some talk around Parker's in Marblehead the other week about making a trip up to the lake for some kind of Viper regatta.  I know if you put together something you'd get at least 3-4 of us from Marblehead..

 

Cheers,

 

Cole



#87 Streetwise

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:20 PM

Clean, I'm hoping for full attendance for our next Monday Night Etchells/Sportboat series next week. I'll try to some shots in the lot and a camera on the committee boat. We had a high school sailor with us on Wednesday, and there is another guy who will be jumping in on one of the boats next week, so this is proving a good way to keep young sailors interested in the sport!

 

I'd be happy to write something up for you too.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

 

Jason, it's been great reading about your sportboat fleet up north..  There was some talk around Parker's in Marblehead the other week about making a trip up to the lake for some kind of Viper regatta.  I know if you put together something you'd get at least 3-4 of us from Marblehead..

 

Cheers,

 

Cole

 

Awesome! This is something I want to do. I've started a new thread to discuss Lake Champlain Sportboat Racing:

 

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=148726



#88 bidok

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 10:48 AM

Fresh opinion after KWRW from m20 lover:

http://www.sailingsc...ts-just-go-fun/



#89 tweisleder

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:30 PM

I am not sure I would call myself a M20 "lover".  I am an owner of the boat, so I will support it.  I also was an owner in a J70 as of this past Dec and other small boats.  My biggest issue is people spouting off without actually talking with the proper facts.  

 

They are completely different boats; the conversation should really be the J70 and Melges 24 or U20.  If you have sailed all of those one would realize that.  I think it is great that there are more people getting out and going sailing in small fun one design boats.  Whether its a M20, M24, J70 or whatever; more boats out there makes events more fun and good things happen.  I really support all of them, just want people to look at it all with actual real information.



#90 brutus

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 02:46 PM

I think the biggest thing in our area was fleet development. I personally would have bought  either one if we could have got a local fleet going. Jboats, along with the sailmakers have put a lot of effort into helping on the local level. Clinics have been given at our club by both North and Ullman.

Now we have 12 local boats for weeknight racing, with the opportunity to travel when we want to. For my family, this is a great mix. My wife likes to sail local nights and I can bring my 5 year old along, but at the same time we can change gears and go to bigger events.

I do not know if we could have reached critical mass locally without the early discounts that jboats, north sails, and triad offered. Now that critical mass has been reached the discounts are not there, but that certainly got our fleet rolling.

 

Another point that is not mentioned is the percentage of the crew that are pro. I know at the J/70 North Americans there were a ton of boats with only one pro onboard. That makes up 75% of the crew cat 1.

A look at the melges 20 worlds looks like the majority of boats were one owner driver with two pros onboard. I have always thought that there should be a limit of one cat 3 on either boat. That keeps cost down, but still allows people to learn from the pros. These are not 40 footers that need pro bowmen.

 

Hopefully both fleets can prosper as there are great people in both fleets. A lot of crossover too as time goes on.

 

I am not sure I would call myself a M20 "lover".  I am an owner of the boat, so I will support it.  I also was an owner in a J70 as of this past Dec and other small boats.  My biggest issue is people spouting off without actually talking with the proper facts.  

 

They are completely different boats; the conversation should really be the J70 and Melges 24 or U20.  If you have sailed all of those one would realize that.  I think it is great that there are more people getting out and going sailing in small fun one design boats.  Whether its a M20, M24, J70 or whatever; more boats out there makes events more fun and good things happen.  I really support all of them, just want people to look at it all with actual real information.



#91 tweisleder

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:11 PM

J does a good job in local fleet development, their dealers help that cause.  Approx 50% of the M20 fleet only has one pro or none; I could not find the crew list for the 70 and KW so you cant do a comparison; it will be interesting to see where it goes class wise.  Personally I sail with two pros; Scott Nixon and John Bowden.  They have been friends for a long time, well before they became sail makers.  I would not consider, nor would John consider himself a bow guy.  He is a trimmer.  The bow on the M20 does all the trimming.

 

Its my personal opinion that the 70 is the perfect boat for the weeknight beer can family club thing with the ability to travel.  That is the reason why I owned half a 70 for a year until my wife said I had too many boats and some needed to go.  Since we never set foot on the 70 as a family it was the easy choice.  For how we have our 20 set up, I would not club race or day sail my boat; thats not to say we could not, there are better options out there.

 

As I stated in my note, the 20 and 70 are not the same and not for the same owner as a whole.  I truly feel the 70 is more of a small keel boat and the 20 is more of a big dinghy.  The nice part is that there are great One Design options.



#92 brutus

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

J does a good job in local fleet development, their dealers help that cause.  Approx 50% of the M20 fleet only has one pro or none; I could not find the crew list for the 70 and KW so you cant do a comparison; it will be interesting to see where it goes class wise.  Personally I sail with two pros; Scott Nixon and John Bowden.  They have been friends for a long time, well before they became sail makers.  I would not consider, nor would John consider himself a bow guy.  He is a trimmer.  The bow on the M20 does all the trimming.

 

Its my personal opinion that the 70 is the perfect boat for the weeknight beer can family club thing with the ability to travel.  That is the reason why I owned half a 70 for a year until my wife said I had too many boats and some needed to go.  Since we never set foot on the 70 as a family it was the easy choice.  For how we have our 20 set up, I would not club race or day sail my boat; thats not to say we could not, there are better options out there.

 

As I stated in my note, the 20 and 70 are not the same and not for the same owner as a whole.  I truly feel the 70 is more of a small keel boat and the 20 is more of a big dinghy.  The nice part is that there are great One Design options.

 

I meant no disrespect by the bow guy comment. I just feel that if we are to grow the sport, the next wave of owners will come from amateurs that are crew. New owners could also come from other classes or people new to the sport.  If classes were to only have one pro per boat, the number of potential future owners that have exposure to the classes would nearly double.

If we go too far towards to pro end of the spectrum, it will grow the number of pros who will hop to the next class that gets hot. That leaves a vacuum behind in the long term with only a few new owners trickling in.

For the long term of any class I think that is a better approach.



#93 schoonerman

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 04:08 PM

Great article Travis. You do sailing well in promoting small and affordable (relatively) boats. I couldn't agree with you more and appreciate you including the U20 and Viper into the conversation as they're both similar in their own ways and viable classes on the West Coast. The U20 has always been a great little boat, more like the 'small keelboat' that the J70 is and the Viper even more dinghy-like than the M20.

FWIW, I think the rig troubles on the M20 hurt it's growth, sadly. Now that's all been sorted, the Melgi need to put that message at the forefront of the marketing effort. I sail a lot of big boats too and often get into conversations with crew on them. The rig problems are well known but the fixed rig isn't well known. We've got some exciting M20 racing coming to the Bay Area over the next couple of years and I'm hoping the word gets out and some local teams develop. It's a fun boat in the breeze. I sailed last years PCC's in an M20 and had a ball. Looking forward to the coming years in the boat.

I've been in the trenches on both the U20 and Viper working the viral sales/marketing angle on both for years. I'm now selling Jboats too, in particular the 70 and 111 and tasked with building those fleets in SF Bay. I have to say, the Jboats vast dealer network is responsible for getting such a huge launch going on the 70.....skin in the game. Our own dealership was cautious in our initial buy on the 70, just a few boats ordered, as it's expensive to get them here. Once we got the ball rolling with many people sailing the boat in the breeze and witnessing the quality, fit and finish...well, we can't get them fast enough now. This is a great thing for sailing as it's bringing in new blood and keeping old blood in the game.

I wonder what Harry and Andy have planned for SF Bay with the M20? Hopefully they're bringing some inventory West to encourage sales.

Thanks again for the great article.

#94 tweisleder

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:06 PM

Great article Travis. You do sailing well in promoting small and affordable (relatively) boats. I couldn't agree with you more and appreciate you including the U20 and Viper into the conversation as they're both similar in their own ways and viable classes on the West Coast. The U20 has always been a great little boat, more like the 'small keelboat' that the J70 is and the Viper even more dinghy-like than the M20.

FWIW, I think the rig troubles on the M20 hurt it's growth, sadly. Now that's all been sorted, the Melgi need to put that message at the forefront of the marketing effort. I sail a lot of big boats too and often get into conversations with crew on them. The rig problems are well known but the fixed rig isn't well known. We've got some exciting M20 racing coming to the Bay Area over the next couple of years and I'm hoping the word gets out and some local teams develop. It's a fun boat in the breeze. I sailed last years PCC's in an M20 and had a ball. Looking forward to the coming years in the boat.

I've been in the trenches on both the U20 and Viper working the viral sales/marketing angle on both for years. I'm now selling Jboats too, in particular the 70 and 111 and tasked with building those fleets in SF Bay. I have to say, the Jboats vast dealer network is responsible for getting such a huge launch going on the 70.....skin in the game. Our own dealership was cautious in our initial buy on the 70, just a few boats ordered, as it's expensive to get them here. Once we got the ball rolling with many people sailing the boat in the breeze and witnessing the quality, fit and finish...well, we can't get them fast enough now. This is a great thing for sailing as it's bringing in new blood and keeping old blood in the game.

I wonder what Harry and Andy have planned for SF Bay with the M20? Hopefully they're bringing some inventory West to encourage sales.

Thanks again for the great article.

Personally I dont think the rig troubles or what people want to call them hurt growth, at least I haven't heard that.

 

I can not comment on why some rigs, not all, but some have failed.  Rigs fail in every class.  I can only speak to our boat and we have had no problem with ours and we put the most turns we had every had before in the last day at the Worlds and were not concerned nor did it break.  I will also say that both Melges and Southern Spars, who makes the J70 (I am pretty sure), M20 and M24 masts among others, have replaced any failed masts pretty much without question.  So people had been taken care of.  I really look at it as growing pains within a new class that is trying to push the envelope a touch more than just making an overbuilt stick.  The key for me is who is standing the class up and what type of people are they.  Both Melges and Jboats as well as Southern are stand up good people, families and companies so no one should worry about whether or not those guys will do the right thing.

 

I hope that we can get more and better traction in SF with the 20, its a great venue for it, just need some people out there really pushing the message etc.



#95 schoonerman

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:17 PM

I agree. The growing pains were inevitable as in every class. The rig issue is behind it and I'm looking forward to a couple of years of great racing in the Bay!

#96 frozenhawaiian

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:52 AM

just gonna throw this out there the production i550's are supposed to be around $20,000 out the door. 



#97 Savage 17

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 01:58 PM

just gonna throw this out there the production i550's are supposed to be around $20,000 out the door. 

just gonna throw this out there the production i550's are supposed to be around $20,000 out the door. 

just gonna throw this out there the production i550's are supposed to be around $20,000 out the door. 


Not even close... The i550 is not one design in anyway..... Please keep out of this debate

#98 Snapper95

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 02:01 PM

FWIW, it looks like a Melges 20 snapped a spar at the 2014 Bacardi Cup on Thursday - look at 8:46

http://m.youtube.com...ch?v=tYQJUmBwez

Attached File  image.jpg   48.14K   33 downloads

#99 USA190520

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:55 PM

5 rigs broken--

High performance trailer jewelry

#100 Bulbhunter

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:30 PM

Minor input a new M20 was purchased by a retired sailor type for doing his local lake program. He sold a catalina type rig after another person brought a U20 to the lake and cleaned up. After a year in the M20 he sold it couple of interesting comments made by a few folks. #1 The M20 took some skill to get up to speed and it was not as kind to old sailors as the U20 regarding cockpit and loads etc. The U20 continued to clean up by the way the conditions in this location was primarily light wind 10knots and under.

 

Something not mentioned is the level of skill vs tweak ability that the boats may require to get the most out of them. I would put the j/70 on the least tweaks needed thus faster ramp up to speed, U20 would be next with the Viper being very similar to the U20 regarding boat specific tweaking to be up to speed then comes the M20 and M24.

 

I think that folks who are occasional racers and weekend warriors need to consider the nature / boat specific tweak ability each of these boats need to get up to speed. Nothing can be more frustrating than having a boat you simply just can't make go fast because you can't spend the time to develop your skill in properly tweaking it for best possible speed in various conditions etc.







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