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Tall Rig vs Standard Rig


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#1 dionski

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 05:35 PM

In comparing available boats of a particular model, I note that, all other things being equal, I naturally lean toward the boat with the tall rig if one is available. I'm beginning to wonder if that makes sense, particularly with regard to cruising boats. Other than in light winds (and perhaps flying a chute), are there any real advantages to a tall rig? It would seem to me that the mainsail on a tall rig will have to be reefed sooner and that an unreefed sail is going to be more efficient than a reefed sail of equal area--particularly with a high aspect rig. Is the tall rig option in a performance cruiser an across the board advantage, a sales gimmick, or something in between.



#2 Ishmael

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 05:51 PM

Where I sail the winds are frequently light, so a tall rig has advantages, especially when you consider that the higher you go the more wind there is. Just make sure you have a good reefing setup for when the breeze is on.

Stumpy rigs make sense if you sail in San Francisco.



#3 hard aground

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:47 PM

It is a whole lot easier to pull a reef in on a tall rig when the breeze starts to stack up. It's quite a bit trickier when it's dying off to create a few extra feet of hoist. Theoretorically a taller mast would also give a longer range VHF signal from a masthead antenna. If you are getting older it is more difficult to see the windex though.



#4 dionski

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:23 PM

I hadn't thought about the advantage of getting the antenna up higher. But I guess it probably mostly comes down to the percentage of time one will likely be spending in light winds, where the tall rig shines.. In high and moderate winds, I would think the shorter rig would have at least a small advantage. But it would be nice to be able to have the ability to go up and grab wind when it's there.



#5 Roleur

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:46 PM

It's a pretty simple decision...

 

If you want to sail more and sail faster a lot of time a tall rig is better.  If you don't care about either of those two things, then get the standard rig.  

 

IMHO almost all cruising boats would be better boats with taller rigs. 



#6 steele

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:53 PM

It depends on the model, but tall rig boats can also have deeper keels which might be an issues if you sail in shallow waters.



#7 hard aground

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:29 PM

When the time comes and they need replacing sails for a tall rig will be more expensive too.



#8 JumpingJax

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 09:53 PM

It depends on the model, but tall rig boats can also have deeper keels which might be an issues if you sail in shallow waters.

 

My board draws11.5 feet down, but my keel is only 5.25 feet.  And I've got a rather tall rig by almost anyone's standards. 



#9 Spoonie

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:13 AM

And I've got a rather tall rig by almost anyone's standards. 

 

"I don't like to brag but..."  



#10 Lamps

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:35 AM

It depends on the model, but tall rig boats can also have deeper keels which might be an issues if you sail in shallow waters.




This is very important in some cruising grounds.

#11 SloopJonB

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 06:52 AM

The old hot rodder's saying about horsepower applies here - if some is good, more is better and too much is just right.

 

Have you ever found yourself thinking "damn, if I had only bought a shorter rig"?



#12 bugger

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:51 AM

ave you ever found yourself thinking "damn, if I had only bought a shorter rig"?

 

Only that one time I wanted to take a particular channel but the rig was taller than the bridge clearance (or close enough that I wouldn't chance it). 



#13 Bob Perry

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:22 PM

Good point Bugster.



#14 SemiSalt

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:42 PM

It's a pretty simple decision...

 

If you want to sail more and sail faster a lot of time a tall rig is better.  If you don't care about either of those two things, then get the standard rig.  

 

IMHO almost all cruising boats would be better boats with taller rigs. 

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. 

 

Early on ,there were two versions of the C&C 27. The second version had a taller rig. At C&C meetings, they raced without handicap. The early version won if the breeze was strong. It's true that you can reef a tall rig, but the shorter version will win in a breeze because the sails will set better, and it has less windage.

 

A friend has a 35' Jeaneau (just a tad smaller than the boats discussed in the Sun Odyssey thread). It has a very moderate rig. It's one of the slowest boats in our little fleet in a drifter, but it only takes 5 or 6 kts of breeze to get it to mid-fleet.  A cruiser is not going far in less than 5Kt of breeze in any event.

 

When a guy like Bob designs a cruising boat, he gives it what he thinks is the right amount of sail. He doesn't lean back in his chair and say, 'Gee, I hope someone comes along and makes a tall rig version because that would be a lot better."



#15 Bob Perry

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:00 PM

Semi:

You are very correct.

However I have come back, say a year later and said, "I think the boat would be better with a taller rig." Or, "I think the boat might be better in a shorter rig." I've done both.

 

The answer to this question is so subjective it's very hard to answer. When we bought the PERRYWINKLE 15 years ago I really liked the way it sailed. I had no numbers for the boat at all.All I knew was that it was 7.8m LOA. I did some research on line and came up with the rest of the numbers. I calculated the SA/D. I Calculated it again. "That cannot be right! It cant be that low." I calculated again. Fact is I had bought a boat with a SA/D of around 15.5! Shitski.

 

I never raced the boat in the 15 years we owned it. And, I never reefed the boat in those 15 years. I had a "big" genoa and a 100% blade that I switched. I never even ran the reef lines. I'd just depower the main hang on and go. In light air, when my speed dropped below say 3 knots, I'd fire up the little Volvo 9.5 hp diesel and put along at 5 knots or 5.5 knots full bore. After 15 years of this I can now look back and say ti was a good combination of features. As I got older the benefits of the short rig slowly began to outweigh the drawbacks.

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#16 boomer

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:35 PM

Over the years in most cases we bought the tall rig vs the standard rig.

 

The benefits have usually been superior performance upwind in winds under about 17 knots. Once 17 knots or so and depending on the sea state, the tall vs the standard are about equal, above 17/18 knots going to weather the standard rig had the advantage. In zephyr to light conditions upwind, usually the tall rig will do a horizon job on the standard rig.

 

Downwind the tall rig has an advantage in the zephyr to light conditions. When the wind is in the teens, under genoa and main and depending on which boat or class, tall and standard are usually about equal. Under the kite however in the teens, quite often the nod goes to the tall rig.

 

More then a few times we had more then one boat and a few times three or more boats. At one point about 12 years ago two of our boats were the same hull, one with the tall rig and the other with the standard. Whether racing or cruising, the tall rig was at an advantage more often then not. On the race course the tall rig though taking a rating hit, usually never had a problem sailing to her rating and then some. When the children were finally raised and gone, the time came to sell one of these two boats. The standard rig had a particularly nice interior, but the tall rig had definite advantage in all around sailing conditions. So the standard rig was sold.

 

With some boats, take the Catalina 30 for instance which was known to have slightly excessive weather helm. The tall rig versions had less weather helm then the standard rig. Later to mitigate the weather helm a short bowsprit was added to both the tall and short rig.

 

One other note, with some standard rigs the boom is lower by a foot or two or more, then the tall rig. In the case of our two tall vs short rig, the boom was about a foot and a half lower. This would be a consideration for those who wish to install a dodger.

 

As Ish said above, if you sail in area with predominately light air, a tall rig is a no brainer. If you sail in the Bay area with their windy summer sailing then a standard rig, might be considered. But I say, what about the rest of the year, when it's not so windy. I think I'd take a tall rig vs a standard even in the Bay area.

 

When Gary Mull designed the Ranger 26, it had a much lower boom. One of the first production versions was delivered to the Bay Area. Gary Mull thought the boat was great as designed. Ranger Yachts management thought she was a bit overpowered for the windy summer conditions and raised the boom about three feet. All models were made with this high boom unless specifically ordered with a lower boom. Most all the models shipped to the Northwest, had this high boom, which is a pain in the ass for furling or reefing. AFAIC all the models shipped to the NW should of had a lower boom as originally designed.



#17 Bob Perry

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

Boomer:

If there has been one consistant chage made to almost all of my designs and made by the builder at dealer's request, it was to have the boom raised. I hate high booms.



#18 Anomaly2

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:09 PM

Great photo Bob. Who is the crusty ol guy at the helm? Looks like he's hunkered down with a bag of Doritos for the passage.

#19 boomer

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:09 PM

Bob...What bothers me is when builders arbitrarily raise the boom, without consideration for CE. In the case of the Ranger 26 this resulted in a boat with neutral helm from six knots to the low to mid teens and considerable lee helm in zephyr to light conditions. The Ranger 26 which I consider a good all around boat, which is still competitive on the race course, would be even more competitive in the NW, if the boom was lower as originally designed.



#20 Bob Perry

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 12:34 AM

Boomer:

I am not seeing the science behind what you are saying. If anything, maintaining the "E" dim and raising the boom would move the CE aft and increase weather helm a tiny bit, probably not enough to feel. Maybe there was some other element in play.

 

Anom:

That's Tricky returning from the Rendezvous, approaching my mooring can. You can just see the top of his girlfriend's head.



#21 Joli

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:00 AM

One advantage of a tall rig is less overlap to deal with for the same hp. If you twist off and board out a tall rig you can sail a very wide wind range with out screwing with multiple head sails. But if you're into aerobic sailing then shorter rigs may be the ticket, get your daily work out cranking home the 1 as you short tack up the bay.

#22 boomer

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:28 AM

Bob,

 

While I'm not as knowledgeable on sailboat design as you. Your correct, there are many elements that come into play that effect the lead of CE. Such as short keel vs a long keel, deep draft vs shallow draft, narrow beam vs wide beam, fine forward hull/waterlines vs a full forward hull/waterlines, low aspect rig vs high aspect rig and so forth.

 

Typically a few ways to reduce weather helm are, reduce rake of mast or even plumb it up, move mast forward, move headstay tack forward, adding or lengthening a bowsprit if necessary, shorten foot and/or hoist of main, recut mainsail flatter, or buy a new main if the old one is blown out, decrease the main with a shorter boom/foot to name a few without going into split rigs or centerboarders. A few ways to correct lee helm include, increase mast rake, move headstay aft or shorten bowsprit, move mast aft, lengthen boom and fit a larger main, adjust a main for more fullness, and so forth....

 

Another way to look at it...If you take two boats of the same design and tuck in the first reef on one and sail with a full main on the other, the weather helm will be reduced on the boat with the mainsail reefed.

 

If you look at the sailplan on the Ranger 26, it's obvious how much the main was raised. I would suspect the E was shortened by a bit as well. I would say a combination of both of these affected the lead of CE. Those who didn't like the neutral helm, usually lowered the boom from two to three feet and took the rating hit. In the bottom pic you'll notice the black band a couple feet higher then the boom, on a Ranger 26 that had the boom lowered to increase weather helm.

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#23 Brodie

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:36 AM

Bob, don't feel too bad...my boat has a SA/D of only 14.7 and a D/L of 419!!  On paper I should be in the motorsailer category; I sail with a 110% jib exclusively, and I've passed boats larger than mine on more than a few occasions.  I've never felt that the boat lacked horsepower (I do admit an asymmetrical would be fun for light air).  The rig is quite "tall" (45' air draft on 30' LOA) but has a short (and low) boom and is a fractional rig. I've reefed a couple of times just to see what the difference was and found not much, if it's really honking I'll just take down one sail or the other completely and she chugs along just fine.

DSC03043_zps3963b5f6.jpg

DSC03046_zps2bfccb2f.jpg



#24 Bob Perry

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:29 PM

Boomer:

I think I get it and while in fact the CP of the main might move aft (I'd have to check with a drawing to be sure) the loss of area aft would move the total CP forward giving a more neutral helm.

I can see that. Boy, that boom is really high. Looks stupid to me. Why is it so high?



#25 sam_crocker

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:12 PM

......, if it's really honking I'll just take down one sail or the other completely and she chugs along just fine.

 

Brodie,

  We gotta get you caught up on the terminology.  Here in CA it's not chugging along, it wanking.



#26 Tucky

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:21 PM

And it took 23 posts for it to show up- surprising in a thread about how big your stick is.



#27 SemiSalt

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:25 PM

If the main is a right triangle, the center of area will always be 1/3 the distance from the mast to the clew.



#28 Bob Perry

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:38 PM

SemI:

Is that right. But sails are seldom right triangles. Probably most mains are close enough. So moving the clew forward will move the center of area forward, like I said.

I don;t like the term "center of pressure " because I don't think I really know where that is at any given boom angle to centerline. It sure as hell is not the centroid of the 2D triangle.



#29 Anomaly2

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:04 PM

......, if it's really honking I'll just take down one sail or the other completely and she chugs along just fine.

 

Brodie,

  We gotta get you caught up on the terminology.  Here in CA it's not chugging along, it wanking.

 

Speaking of wanking, over on the "Thought Experiment" thread, there was mention of a Morris. So, I went to the Morris website to check out the current lineup. Lots of scenic shots of various Morris boats (I recall the 36 in particular) wanking along. Not sure I'd try to sell a boat by emphasizing its wanking ability....



#30 SemiSalt

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:12 PM

http://mathworld.wol...leCentroid.html



#31 boomer

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:20 AM

Boomer:

I think I get it and while in fact the CP of the main might move aft (I'd have to check with a drawing to be sure) the loss of area aft would move the total CP forward giving a more neutral helm.

I can see that. Boy, that boom is really high. Looks stupid to me. Why is it so high?

 

I was looking for the story yesterday on the web, in which Gary Mull explained why it was raised, but couldn't find it. I may have it on one of my old computers.

 

One of the first or the first production Ranger 26 was brought up to the Bay Area in the summer of '68. A few people from the management of Ranger Yachts came up, arriving in the afternoon and by then it was a blowing good . I don't recall if they had a reefing system set up, but don't think they did. They had to sail with a big bubble or letting the main flog to keep her on her feet. The management team went back to Costa Mesa and said the 26 had too much sail area. So the boom was raised to that ridiculous height.

 

Gary the story teller that he was, gave a far more entertaining account....as well as some choice words about Ranger Yachts management.



#32 memopad

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:31 PM

I'm torn between bragging rights of having a big stick, and the annoyance I feel at having to reef down and change headsails so often.  I think there was a few week span last summer where I never even took the reef out.  Just flaked the sail with it still in.  

 

Boomer I know you have a roachy main on your R28 also.  Two mains came with my boat, the one I've been using has a fair bit of roach and sweeps the backstay somewhat, unfortunately that sail has pretty much lost it's shape.  The other main I have looks to be in too good shape to be original, but it probably has the original cut with little or no roach.  Haven't used it yet but I might give it a try this summer.

 

...I also need to talk to you about rudder bearings lol



#33 Alex W

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

My first sailboat was a Catalina 25 with a tall rig.  

 

Two downsides related to being a cheap cruiser:

* Standard rigs are 7 times more common (on this particular boat) and thus most of the used sails or pre-made sails on the market are for the standard.  This hasn't been a major problem, and we've still found very good condition used foresails in lots of sizes: 150% genoa, 110% jib, asym spinnaker and storm jib.

* The boom is 1' lower on the tall rig.  It is low enough to prevent installing a dodger or bimini.  However the Catalina 25 isn't really a natural choice for either anyway. That can be changed when a new sail is cut and you'd still get 2' extra sail height (instead of the 3' that you get on the tall normally).

 

For sailing in Seattle I'm glad that I got the tall rig.  The new boat's owner likes it better too.

 

If a tall rig had been available for my Pearson 28-2 I'd probably have liked it.  However I would have wanted a deeper keel to match (or a keel shape that allowed lower VCG), the boat is already a bit tender.



#34 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:59 PM

Boomer:

Gary was a good friend of mine and you are right, he was a very good story teller and a very smart man. I miss him. My inclimation if the boat was overpowered would have been to reduce the
"I" dim by a couple of feet. But maybe they had a large stock of mast extrusions already to go and raising the gooseneck was the easiest and most economical solution at that time.



#35 boomer

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:18 PM

Bob-

 

Sorry, forgot to mention, the I was cut down by a couple feet as well as raising the boom. There were still those who wanted a taller rig and many of the NW Rangers have about a two foot taller rig, but with only a foot added to the P. The shortened rig was later raised about six inches. We had a tall rig R-26 which we did a hull and deck restoration on in '05. which we later sold to another pilebuck foreman, who wanted a Ranger 26 for a long time. Last summer we found another R-26 for a family friend who has sailed with us since she was young. A very clean 26 I might add, that probably spent most it's life not being sailed.



#36 SailRacer

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:42 PM

Get the Tall rig and soon you will be beating the J- 70's (or whatever)  to the first mark in no time..

 

Sail safe!



#37 Soņadora

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:19 PM

I was standing in the parking lot of the marina the other day and looked out across the dock where Soñadora sits. There's a lot of 30-something boats parked there. The top of my mast is pretty much about as tall as all the other masts. Taller than some (like one C&C and a Catalina 30) but shorter than others (Hunter 32). I don't typically make it a habit of comparing my length to others but I can say that I didn't have any problem with being in the same ballpark as a lot of my peers.

 

I haven't wished my stick was shorter. Nor have I wished it were longer. For the type of boat, in fact, I honestly think the whole setup is 100% perfect.

 

Okay, maybe 99% perfect since nothing's ever perfect.



#38 memopad

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:51 AM

Generally I think taller masts make a boat more pleasing.  To my eyes anyway.  Some standard rigs look positively truncated. 



#39 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:51 PM

Boomer:

For me those 6" and 12" rig changes are total BS. Unless there is a measurement rule involved with a target rating. You can't feel the difference in those small incriments. I know you can't. My rule of thumb if I am going to modify the height of a rig is to raise or lower it by one reef dimension. I know I can feel that. If I modify a rig for an owner the last thing I want to hear him say is "I think I can tell the difference."



#40 Trickypig

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:48 PM

Another thing to bear in mind with used boats is that some manufacturers offer tall rigs packaged with upgraded blocks and deck gear that, to be frank, should have come with the standard rig. 



#41 boomer

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:32 PM

Bob- I agree completely.



#42 triciarob

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:19 PM

As usual I miss the point. Has there been an update to Marchaj's wind tunnel work from way too long ago,that proved that the best over-all sail was a nearly square gaff sail with an aspect ratio of nearly 1 ?

Granted that won't get get you upwind with the alacrity of a sail plan with an aspect ratio of 6 (or whatever the latest fat-headed main and fractional rig works out at.)But only idiots and racers go to windward .

Glass fibre has always been cheaper than lead.Righting movement has always been related to some rating rule.Wide and light is cheaper than deep and heavy,with the bonus the salesperson found it easier to sell the added space as 'the same design as the latest racer'.

Apologies to Bob but if somebody is offering a different rig, then they either fucked up or they decided to ignore the original rating they were aiming for.

Rob

#43 SemiSalt

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:33 PM

Rob,

 

I think that tall rigs are primarily used for more area, especially off-wind area, rather than the putative advantages of high aspect ratio. The differences in AR are fairly small.

 

As for Marchaj's study, the concept of "best overall" is pretty vague. Best for who? Best where? I think we can be pretty sure that the aspect ratios that are common for performance racing boats are "best overall" in that context. There has been too much experimentation to think otherwise. On the other hand, a Sunfish gets around fine and is fun to sail.



#44 Schnick

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:39 PM

The cruising sails from my short-rig C36 can fit just fine on a tall rig boat to go cruising.  The race sails from a Tall Rig C36 do not fit my boat to go racing.  I know which rig I'd rather own.



#45 triciarob

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:43 PM

Sorry, all things being equal - go for the bigger rig,it's a lot easier to set up a good reefing system than it is to add extra sail area. As well as being cheaper in the long run compared to diesel 'in those marginal conditions' Rob

#46 SloopJonB

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:22 PM

Sorry, all things being equal - go for the bigger rig,it's a lot easier to set up a good reefing system than it is to add extra sail area. As well as being cheaper in the long run compared to diesel 'in those marginal conditions' Rob

That's always been my view. I've never been all that impressed by claims that a particular boat didn't need reefing until after 20 knots. That always seemed to me to indicate the rig was undersized.

 

Having done most of my sailing in a light wind area I really appreciate a big rig - reefing is easier than handling 150 gennies.



#47 Bob Perry

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:29 PM

I think you have to evaluate the type of rig we are talking about. Masthead rigs depend on big gennies so they can have a lower base SA/D.

Frac rigs don't have the option of adding big gennies so they need to start out with a higher SA/D. I see that as a good thing. I hope I never have to trim another 150% genny.

The taller frac rig puts the sail arrea up higher where the wind is more stable. It's far easier to reef a mainsail than it is to change jibs.



#48 kdh

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:46 PM

My masthead rig was designed for a big genny. But unless that 150% is made of light material it doesn't work. An all-purpose roller-furled genoa more than 125% in all conditions is not a good sail. In light air the sail is too heavy. In a breeze the shape sucks.

 

Since the boat was designed we've learned a lot about sail shape and building light spars.



#49 Joli

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:32 PM

When They Added 9 Foot To Our Rig It Brought The SA/D to 19 With A 100% Jib. For Us That SA/D works Well As A Cruising Rig, Plenty Of Power For Most Sailing Conditions With A #3 But Also It Gives Us A Big Wind Range. It's Pretty Easy To Depower. With The #1 It's Very Alive Till About 29 Over The Deck. I Don't Think I Would Want The Original Rig Height.

#50 Mung Breath

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:26 AM

When CDE was refit, we added a 7' taller CF mast. Went to 63'5/57' from 57'6/50' and shed around 1000#. We also restored the original boom length, from '15(IOR) to 18'. This scared the bejezzuz out of the old-school sailmaker and truthfully, I was concerned too. To Bob's comment, this equated to roughly one reef point. So now the new 'first reef' leaves as much sail as the original main and we have three reefs instead of two. But I now race just fine with 135% as my biggest headsail (equivalent of old 155%) and cruise with a 120% or 96%. We also went with AP tape drive sails for more weight reduction and easier handling.<br /><br />Having lived with it for a couple seasons, I can honestly say it's the best thing we did. The bigger main makes the boat formidable in light air, especially downwind; the smaller masthead headsails make single-handing possible. Impact to ratings was all positive. Trade off is that we should throw that first reef in earlier, say by 13-true but we seldom do. If short-handed distance racing, we'll usually just flatten the main, throw the traveler down and let the headsail drive.<br /><br />You can always shorten sail... it's tougher to add it.<br />

#51 memopad

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:08 PM

My masthead rig was designed for a big genny. But unless that 150% is made of light material it doesn't work. An all-purpose roller-furled genoa more than 125% in all conditions is not a good sail. In light air the sail is too heavy. In a breeze the shape sucks.

 

Since the boat was designed we've learned a lot about sail shape and building light spars.

 

This times a million...

 

The roller furling 155% on my boat is waaaaay too heavy to be useful.  In light enough air to use the whole sail, it's too heavy for the wind to fill and it doesn't work.  If you roller reef it in heavy air it just has crappy shape anyway.  I found an older 135% that moves the boat around much better in light air than that heavy 155 ever could dream of.



#52 SemiSalt

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:47 PM

My masthead rig was designed for a big genny. But unless that 150% is made of light material it doesn't work. An all-purpose roller-furled genoa more than 125% in all conditions is not a good sail. In light air the sail is too heavy. In a breeze the shape sucks.

 

Since the boat was designed we've learned a lot about sail shape and building light spars.

 

This times a million...

 

The roller furling 155% on my boat is waaaaay too heavy to be useful.  In light enough air to use the whole sail, it's too heavy for the wind to fill and it doesn't work.  If you roller reef it in heavy air it just has crappy shape anyway.  I found an older 135% that moves the boat around much better in light air than that heavy 155 ever could dream of.

 

The modern fabrics have a much wider range of use than traditional dacron. 

 

I have my Hunter 28 rated in PHRF for a 135%. When I first did it, I was sailing no-spin with a 70-yar-old lady of slight stature. We didn't make her trim jib, but she wanted to, so I went with smaller sail. After several years, I wouldn't go back. Most of the time, the boat is just as fast. Besides, the winches are barely adequate for the 135 when the wind gets up in the teens.

 

Downwind in a drifter, a bigger sail might help a lot.



#53 kdh

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:05 AM

 

My masthead rig was designed for a big genny. But unless that 150% is made of light material it doesn't work. An all-purpose roller-furled genoa more than 125% in all conditions is not a good sail. In light air the sail is too heavy. In a breeze the shape sucks.

 

Since the boat was designed we've learned a lot about sail shape and building light spars.

 

This times a million...

 

The roller furling 155% on my boat is waaaaay too heavy to be useful.  In light enough air to use the whole sail, it's too heavy for the wind to fill and it doesn't work.  If you roller reef it in heavy air it just has crappy shape anyway.  I found an older 135% that moves the boat around much better in light air than that heavy 155 ever could dream of.

 

The modern fabrics have a much wider range of use than traditional dacron. 

 

I have my Hunter 28 rated in PHRF for a 135%. When I first did it, I was sailing no-spin with a 70-yar-old lady of slight stature. We didn't make her trim jib, but she wanted to, so I went with smaller sail. After several years, I wouldn't go back. Most of the time, the boat is just as fast. Besides, the winches are barely adequate for the 135 when the wind gets up in the teens.

 

Downwind in a drifter, a bigger sail might help a lot.

 

Semi, I used to sail with a North spectra laminate 135%. It was too heavy for light air.

 

Downwind I have a big light nylon asymmetric.



#54 Amati

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:27 PM

One way of making a short masthead into a tall would be to turn the mast into the bottom part of a Gunter rig.

Engineering would be um , interesting, but you'd get auto depowring in a blow, and get rid of big upwind jibs???

One of those thought rolling around my brain for 45 years.....

#55 Jose Carumba

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:48 PM

One way of making a short masthead into a tall would be to turn the mast into the bottom part of a Gunter rig.

Engineering would be um , interesting, but you'd get auto depowring in a blow, and get rid of big upwind jibs???

One of those thought rolling around my brain for 45 years.....

 

You know, if you fill your mind with fluff those thoughts won't roll around as much.   :rolleyes:



#56 Amati

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 05:08 PM

Or windsurfer masts as the Gunter spar. At least they only tend to roll around in one dimension....

#57 triciarob

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:54 AM

Read in a book that a gunter was attempted on a large scale by Sam Crocker on a schooner called Mahdee which originally carried a big jibheaded gunter- rigged mainsail. The stress caused by a yard of those dimensions swinging wildly about was more than Sandy Moffat could stand and a conventional Bermudan main was rigged as a substitute.

Might be different these days with lightweight carbon, so I say go for it and let us know.

Rob

PS Got loads of fluff if anyone needs a refill.

#58 SemiSalt

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:46 PM

Phil Bolger was a fan of the Solent rig, which is much like the Gunter except the heel of the yard is not attached to the mast, but kept vertical by the tension in the luff of the sail He did say they weren't popular, and I'm not sure that any boat of size went very long before being re-rigged. I don't think either rig works well with spreaders.



#59 SemiSalt

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:40 PM

YMT design #216.

 

image002.gif



#60 Amati

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:19 PM

:wub:

#61 Steam Flyer

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:47 AM

Phil Bolger was a fan of the Solent rig, which is much like the Gunter except the heel of the yard is not attached to the mast, but kept vertical by the tension in the luff of the sail He did say they weren't popular, and I'm not sure that any boat of size went very long before being re-rigged. I don't think either rig works well with spreaders.

 

Oh it works fine with spreaders, as long as you don't mind replacing them fairly often as the yard swinging around tends to knock them off.

 

The problem with all these rigs that don't have 2 halyards, to keep decent luff tension the yard needs to be much longer aft of the halyard attachment. So the peak tends to drop first, and often turns into a deadly spear aimed at the crew on deck. Keeping the heel of the yard attached to the mast seems to me like a good idea to tame the beast although I have no experience with large gunters. Small ones have several PITA features.

 

FB- Doug



#62 Speng

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:34 PM

Anything bigger than an ~135 jib  on most boats is useless. if there's anything you can generally say about sail boat design it's that. So if your short 'n' stumpy rig "needs" a 155 to make it go you should go for a taller rig with something less than a 135. If you need more HP for off-wind work you carry a specialist sail for that purpose. Plus it's way easier to short tack a channel with a smaller jib.






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