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Video: Code 0's on Oracle Team USA and Emirates Team New Zealand,


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#1 JNavas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:32 PM



#2 fng

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:04 PM

nice gybe at the end, well 16.50

 

great stuff JNavas



#3 roarer699

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:24 PM

16.50 - did the starboard hull touch at any stage in the gybe?



#4 RMac

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:37 PM

Sweet merciful crap!  Great video. I know the OR boat is on day 1 of a relaunch, but that looked pretty one-sided.  I was watching on cam yesterday and thought OR looked pretty advanced upwind, but the downwind stuff was tables turned.  Lots of * in that observation though.

 

By the way, whatever breeze/sea/angle combination NZ was sailing in at 6:34, it sure seems like thats about the top end of the genn!



#5 JNavas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:51 PM

16.50 - did the starboard hull touch at any stage in the gybe?

 

Nope! Watch full screen on YouTube in 1080p.



#6 Remodel

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:54 PM

Sweet merciful crap!  Great video. I know the OR boat is on day 1 of a relaunch, but that looked pretty one-sided.  I was watching on cam yesterday and thought OR looked pretty advanced upwind, but the downwind stuff was tables turned.  Lots of * in that observation though.

 

By the way, whatever breeze/sea/angle combination NZ was sailing in at 6:34, it sure seems like thats about the top end of the genn!

Pretty sure that was BA learning the ropes, but I have to say we haven't seen JS do much better to date.



#7 JNavas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:56 PM

Sweet merciful crap!  Great video. I know the OR boat is on day 1 of a relaunch, but that looked pretty one-sided.  I was watching on cam yesterday and thought OR looked pretty advanced upwind, but the downwind stuff was tables turned.  Lots of * in that observation though.

 

By the way, whatever breeze/sea/angle combination NZ was sailing in at 6:34, it sure seems like thats about the top end of the genn!

 

Thanks!

According to NOAA, wind speed was 10 kt at that point in the video.



#8 roarer699

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:02 PM

Amaze-balls.

 

JN - keep up the good work. Really appreciate it.



#9 Donjoman

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:59 PM

Man you could watch that all day! Top vids keep em coming!
 
OB1.5 still looks all over the place, i guess new configs and possibly blooding diff crew? anyone have any idea. OB2 looks light years faster. I dont think the forward boards are doing it any justice... alot of bum dragging and general instability.

#10 1SmokinWeed

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:48 PM

You can see that Ainsle is driving at about 11 minutes in with Spithill sitting in the back of the middle of the boat.  You can read the names at around 11:20.



#11 JNavas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:49 PM

Man you could watch that all day! Top vids keep em coming!
 
OB1.5 still looks all over the place, i guess new configs and possibly blooding diff crew? anyone have any idea. OB2 looks light years faster. I dont think the forward boards are doing it any justice... alot of bum dragging and general instability.

 

It looks to me like Oracle is currently working mostly on getting foiling to work properly on all points of sail, rather than crew work. So far today (Wed Jun 12, about 12 kt of wind) it's been mostly long downwind runs, and they seem to be having problems keeping it foiling. The one gybe thus far put both hulls in the water.

 

By comparison, ETNZ seems to have foiling working well on all points of sail, and the crew work is awesome, disciplined and smooth.

 

But then Oracle has the luxury of much more time than ETNZ.



#12 hoom

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:53 PM

Great vid :)

 

I know its not as dramatic as the downwind but could you get some sequences of upwind sailing 'in anger'?



#13 JNavas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:57 PM

Great vid :)

 

I know its not as dramatic as the downwind but could you get some sequences of upwind sailing 'in anger'?

 

Thanks! I'll do my best.



#14 us772

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:24 PM

Thank you for the great video's! My fav part of these forums.



#15 JNavas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:49 PM

Man you could watch that all day! Top vids keep em coming!
 
OB1.5 still looks all over the place, i guess new configs and possibly blooding diff crew? anyone have any idea. OB2 looks light years faster. I dont think the forward boards are doing it any justice... alot of bum dragging and general instability.

 

It looks to me like Oracle is currently working mostly on getting foiling to work properly on all points of sail, rather than crew work. So far today (Wed Jun 12, about 12 kt of wind) it's been mostly long downwind runs, and they seem to be having problems keeping it foiling. The one gybe thus far put both hulls in the water.

 

By comparison, ETNZ seems to have foiling working well on all points of sail, and the crew work is awesome, disciplined and smooth.

 

But then Oracle has the luxury of much more time than ETNZ.

 

Oracle crashed down from foils into the water on both of its last two downwind runs.

Looked a bit dangerous to me. Still from video:

 

thumbgob.jpg



#16 Indio

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:01 PM

Thank you for the great work you're doing. 



#17 timt

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:01 PM

Whatever you think about Coutts, in his previous AC wins he froze the design early and then sailed the hell out of the boats. If he has anything to do with crew training, I think OR will ultimately end up being fine.

#18 JNavas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:07 PM

Whatever you think about Coutts, in his previous AC wins he froze the design early and then sailed the hell out of the boats. If he has anything to do with crew training, I think OR will ultimately end up being fine.

 

Agreed, although this time they seem to be struggling to get the boat(s) right.



#19 jaysper

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:15 PM

Whatever you think about Coutts, in his previous AC wins he froze the design early and then sailed the hell out of the boats. If he has anything to do with crew training, I think OR will ultimately end up being fine.

 

Agreed, although this time they seem to be struggling to get the boat(s) right.

 

I'm not sure that is necessarily true.

I think you are certainly correct about boat 1, but it appears like they have accepted that it cannot and will not be their race boat (since they have left the dagger boards in their original position).

However, by most accounts boat 2 is looking pretty sharp.



#20 buckdouger

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:26 PM

nice gybe at the end, well 16.50

 

great stuff JNavas

Awesome work. Surely this puts to rest the 'fybing' discussion?



#21 Indio

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:44 PM

Whatever you think about Coutts, in his previous AC wins he froze the design early and then sailed the hell out of the boats. If he has anything to do with crew training, I think OR will ultimately end up being fine.

That was true then - when he was sailing the boats. These days, he's too busy ducking for cover...



#22 jaysper

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:48 PM

nice gybe at the end, well 16.50

 

great stuff JNavas

Awesome work. Surely this puts to rest the 'fybing' discussion?

 

Certainly does for me. I wonder if we will see any "facking" <_<

 

Actually of more interest to me now is what the teams will do in low winds.

Will they put "training foils" on in order to force the boat to foil or accept that they can't foil and go for smaller foils?



#23 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:49 PM

That's the first full foiling gybe I've seen on video, though they've been reported as early as March



#24 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:50 PM

BTW for all you 'fybers' - I remember when only one guy could do foiling gybes in the moth.  There were similar terminology discussions.  Then everyone else learned how, and it was just called a 'gybe'



#25 Doug Lord

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:53 PM

Thank you for this historic video!

 

16.50 - did the starboard hull touch at any stage in the gybe?

 

Nope! Watch full screen on YouTube in 1080p.



#26 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:57 PM

Agree for once, doug.  Historic.

 

Which will be the first AC boat whose hull never touches the water on a downwind leg?

 

My money's on Dalts.



#27 jc172528

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:04 PM


Whatever you think about Coutts, in his previous AC wins he froze the design early and then sailed the hell out of the boats. If he has anything to do with crew training, I think OR will ultimately end up being fine.

 

Agreed, although this time they seem to be struggling to get the boat(s) right.

 

Best start to the morning cheers, awesome work.

 

OR seem hard press to control pitch at times???

 

Attached File  Capture.JPG   50.18K   19 downloads



#28 jaysper

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:07 PM

That's the first full foiling gybe I've seen on video, though they've been reported as early as March

 

Awww c'mon Clean, you must have heaps of fybes on video from your trip down under.

Hows that going btw?



#29 Indio

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:08 PM

CC130611-008.jpg

Interesting sequence from about 17:04 to 17:10 which supports the switch-on-the-wheel board control suggestion. Ray Davies gets to and grabs the port wheel while Dean Barker is still on the s/board wheel. As soon as Ray gets a firm grip on the wheel, Barker lets go and sprints across, and then Davies does not let go until Barker has a hand on the wheel. I've not seen this baton-type handover before: OR, for instance, leaves the wheel untouched for a second or two.



#30 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:46 AM

 

Man you could watch that all day! Top vids keep em coming!
 
OB1.5 still looks all over the place, i guess new configs and possibly blooding diff crew? anyone have any idea. OB2 looks light years faster. I dont think the forward boards are doing it any justice... alot of bum dragging and general instability.

 

It looks to me like Oracle is currently working mostly on getting foiling to work properly on all points of sail, rather than crew work. So far today (Wed Jun 12, about 12 kt of wind) it's been mostly long downwind runs, and they seem to be having problems keeping it foiling. The one gybe thus far put both hulls in the water.

 

By comparison, ETNZ seems to have foiling working well on all points of sail, and the crew work is awesome, disciplined and smooth.

 

But then Oracle has the luxury of much more time than ETNZ.

 

Oracle crashed down from foils into the water on both of its last two downwind runs.

Looked a bit dangerous to me. Still from video:

 

thumbgob.jpg

Same boat is still willing to ww pp. Genes don't lie...



#31 jaysper

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:48 AM

Same boat is still willing to ww pp. Genes don't lie...

 

Well, if it does they could be screwed cos AFAIK they are down to two wings and that could become one



#32 Kiwing

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:54 AM

Same boat is still willing to ww pp. Genes don't lie...

 

Well, if it does they could be screwed cos AFAIK they are down to two wings and that could become one

No they wont destroy the wing this time !!



#33 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:05 AM

Wonderful video Jnavas, first time I see 2 flybes !



#34 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:16 AM

This thread has reinstated my faith in humanity. Thank you JNavas for the videos and veryone else for insightful feedback and useful observations.

 

For what it's worth I think the ability to 'fybe' is a function of how much you need to heat up after the gybe to keep the pressure on.

 

Watch the boats sailing in the light breeze with their code-0's on and youll see them slow down dramatically in the gybe, come up wildly afterwards and then do a sharp bear-away as the apparent builds again. There's no way they will 'fybe' when the gybing angles are so high.

 

When they're in medium pressure they don't have to jam it up as hard but one of the hulls will almost always kiss the water. Sometimes the windward hull will foil while the leeward hull sinks down. I reckon that's slow and having the judgement to try to stay balanced, while not necessarily 'fybing' is actually quicker when you don't have the pressure.

 

If they are in consistently higher breeze or if they gybe in a good gust they seem to keep the pressure on, the change in heading is less pronounced and then the 'fybe' is possible.

 

In all conditions there is a guy to leeward next to the boards after every gybe. He is making adjustments. They seem to be using a combination of AOA and height to maintain control and it looks like they make these adjustments dynamically. I have been trying to work out why he's there and why they couldn't control what they're doing from the other side. Have a look - what do you guys reckon?

 

ETNZ have been very sensitive about anyone photographing or filming the foil adjustment mechanism. While I don't think their system will be like another 'winged keel' I am sure they've found an ingenious, pratical and durable set-up that works for them and they want to protect that IP.



#35 gregj1

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:04 AM

 

 

awesome, awesome video JNavas.  it's very appreciated.

 

 

those boats look like a handful.  everything so fast!  makes the crew work look kind of sloppy to my eye - except for the run that produced the beyond amazing airborne gybe



#36 Chris UK

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:22 AM

I do not know what you are talking about! ENTZ does not fybe in that video!!!

 

 

 

……..it wouldn’t be the SA Forum without someone denying the bleeding obvious!!!



#37 jaysper

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:46 AM

I do not know what you are talking about! ENTZ does not fybe in that video!!!

 

 

 

……..it wouldn’t be the SA Forum without someone denying the bleeding obvious!!!

 

You're right,looked more like a capsize to me



#38 hoom

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:48 PM

Did you see how much twist there was? Pretty sure DB fell off during that.



#39 FinnPin

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:53 PM

nice jibe.

looks like deano his hanging on for his life.



#40 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:38 PM

http://sailinganarch...the-quickening/



#41 luvdawestend

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:10 PM

I recently attended a talk by Gino Morelli. He was very interesting about the foil design choices and their trade offs. One of the most interesting comments which is viewed here is that foiling through the jibe will be the key to winning the Cup. According to him its worth about 400 meters. Others tidbits were headsails getting smaller as they are always going to windward (iceboat style) and foiling to windward not to much of an advantage. He also talked about the "wheelie" phenomenon also observed here. What one losses perspective of in the videos is just how huge these things are.

 

Foil trim is slow at best as it must all be done by human powered (hydraulics) so its more an issue of good design and crew trim.  



#42 JNavas

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:35 PM

I recently attended a talk by Gino Morelli. He was very interesting about the foil design choices and their trade offs. One of the most interesting comments which is viewed here is that foiling through the jibe will be the key to winning the Cup. According to him its worth about 400 meters. Others tidbits were headsails getting smaller as they are always going to windward (iceboat style) and foiling to windward not to much of an advantage. He also talked about the "wheelie" phenomenon also observed here. What one losses perspective of in the videos is just how huge these things are.

 

Foil trim is slow at best as it must all be done by human powered (hydraulics) so its more an issue of good design and crew trim.  

 

Excellent, thanks!



#43 Chris C

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:55 PM

Stunning.



#44 2Newts

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:58 PM

Amazing video. What a way to spend lunch! 

 

Now how am I going to get back to work?!?



#45 Manfred

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:50 PM

I do not know what you are talking about! ENTZ does not fybe in that video!!!
 
 
 
……..it wouldn’t be the SA Forum without someone denying the bleeding obvious!!!

 
You're right,looked more like a capsize to me

Thanks Jaysper!
I had to laugh out loud...

#46 Guvacine

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:56 PM

OK - don't yell at me. Can the foiling experts out there clarify for me - is foiling really that much faster at least in a straight line? In many of these sequences it doesn't "look" like the boats are going slower, or much slower, off the foil. The water spray around the foil is also messy looking and is generating a lot of drag in its own right.

 

Second question - what is the faster line, a no nonsense non-foiling line straight to the mark, or, fast foiling but swerving all over the place trying to make the mark?



#47 fallsailor

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:08 PM

JN,

 

Thank you for all of your effort!!!

 

Much appreciated!

 

Sincerely,

 

fs



#48 jaysper

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:25 PM

OK - don't yell at me. Can the foiling experts out there clarify for me - is foiling really that much faster at least in a straight line? In many of these sequences it doesn't "look" like the boats are going slower, or much slower, off the foil. The water spray around the foil is also messy looking and is generating a lot of drag in its own right.

 

Second question - what is the faster line, a no nonsense non-foiling line straight to the mark, or, fast foiling but swerving all over the place trying to make the mark?

 

Question 1: Those such as MM who have witnessed first hand the transition from non-foiling to foiling say it is like being shot out of a cannon. Additionally, AR's non-foiler got smoked by OR's foiler.

Question 2: We have to assume that foiling whilst swerving is faster since all four teams are now concentrating their efforts on foiling.

 

Also remember that even on a non-foiler a certain amount of serving is required to keep the hull flying.

 

Hope any or all of that helped in some way



#49 MidPack

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

Just wanted to add my thanks for this vid, outstanding work!!!



#50 RobinC

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:31 PM

You know Formula 1?  You know Formula 1 pit crews?  This is Formula 1 where the pit crews go with the car.



#51 Qman

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:15 PM

OK - don't yell at me. Can the foiling experts out there clarify for me - is foiling really that much faster at least in a straight line? In many of these sequences it doesn't "look" like the boats are going slower, or much slower, off the foil. The water spray around the foil is also messy looking and is generating a lot of drag in its own right.

 

Second question - what is the faster line, a no nonsense non-foiling line straight to the mark, or, fast foiling but swerving all over the place trying to make the mark?

 

There is absolutely no question that foiling is faster, despite the trade offs of drag and track. 

 

down wind they sail alot deeper on foils than without cause of the apparent wind



#52 jc172528

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:46 PM

He also talked about the "wheelie" phenomenon also observed here. What one losses perspective of in the videos is just how huge these things are.

 

Foil trim is slow at best as it must all be done by human powered (hydraulics) so its more an issue of good design and crew trim.  

 

So what you're saying(?) is that the inability to control pitch that see often in OR and sometimes in TNZ is the result of the lag time between foil trimmer and foil?



#53 Boybland

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:07 PM

He also talked about the "wheelie" phenomenon also observed here. What one losses perspective of in the videos is just how huge these things are.

 

Foil trim is slow at best as it must all be done by human powered (hydraulics) so its more an issue of good design and crew trim.  

 

So what you're saying(?) is that the inability to control pitch that see often in OR and sometimes in TNZ is the result of the lag time between foil trimmer and foil?

 

Couple with the fact the ETNZ system has far more self correcting and the results are the differences we are seeing between the two boats, both in boat speed (Oracle looks like it may be quicker) and ease of sailing (ETNZ looks far far easier to control).  Expect come cup time that they have met somewhere in the middle unless they are both absolutely certain they are the one on the right course, in which case it is going to get VERY interesting come race day!



#54 Marcjsmith

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:26 AM

great vids....thanks....  many of us on the right hand coast  are vicariously living through these videos...



#55 aslongastheyreallthesame

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:44 AM

pretty cool......bored.......bored.....bored.....jeez these things are fast - but boring to watch.....bored.....bored.....I appreciate the skill and incredible engineering but still bored......bored......where is the damn jibe??!?!?.....bored.....bored......sheesh that thing won't stay level huh? Looks very experimental.....bored.....oh, here we go.....nope they dropped it.......bored......bored..........looks like another jibe coming.......great- kept it up!....way to go guy guys!.....still kind of boring to watch at these angles....

 

 

Maybe you need at least two of these things to "get it" and some perspective from a helicopter shot?

 

No offense to all of the effort that has gone into designing, building, and sailing these boats...just not so sure about the overall concept.



#56 aslongastheyreallthesame

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:47 AM

PS - Great video work!



#57 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:09 AM

At 16:16 you get a great view of how much leeway they're making on the foil. Boat is ranging straight at the camera and hulls are pointed well to weather of CMG. Thanks J!

#58 Boybland

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 05:07 AM

pretty cool......bored.......bored.....bored.....jeez these things are fast - but boring to watch.....bored.....bored.....I appreciate the skill and incredible engineering but still bored......bored......where is the damn jibe??!?!?.....bored.....bored......sheesh that thing won't stay level huh? Looks very experimental.....bored.....oh, here we go.....nope they dropped it.......bored......bored..........looks like another jibe coming.......great- kept it up!....way to go guy guys!.....still kind of boring to watch at these angles....

 

 

Maybe you need at least two of these things to "get it" and some perspective from a helicopter shot?

 

No offense to all of the effort that has gone into designing, building, and sailing these boats...just not so sure about the overall concept.

 

They may just be the wrong kind of boat for you in particular, I could watch them for hours!



#59 cantp1

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:11 PM

You know Formula 1?  You know Formula 1 pit crews?  This is Formula 1 where the pit crews go with the car.

 

Wonder how much fuel they're burning daily???

4 x 300 HP x 2 = $$$ :wacko:



#60 KingMonkey

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 05:35 PM

Superb video work. It's wierd how the gentler pitching of ETNZ almost makes it look like it's going in slow motion compared to OR. Just to be clear - I've been off this thread for a bit - this is OR 1.5 with a respray, right?



#61 unShirley

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 06:17 PM

I think the NZ boat looks to be faster than the Oracle boat primarily because it is foiling more consistently.

What do you think?

#62 jaysper

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:03 PM

Superb video work. It's wierd how the gentler pitching of ETNZ almost makes it look like it's going in slow motion compared to OR. Just to be clear - I've been off this thread for a bit - this is OR 1.5 with a respray, right?

right.

Yup, certainly most eye-o-meters out there seem to think ETNZ is travelling slower.

I have to (sadly) admit that even on the cameras they do seem to be going slower.

Hopefully this is an aberration as you suggest.



#63 Boybland

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 10:04 PM

Superb video work. It's wierd how the gentler pitching of ETNZ almost makes it look like it's going in slow motion compared to OR. Just to be clear - I've been off this thread for a bit - this is OR 1.5 with a respray, right?

right.

Yup, certainly most eye-o-meters out there seem to think ETNZ is travelling slower.

I have to (sadly) admit that even on the cameras they do seem to be going slower.

Hopefully this is an aberration as you suggest.

 

I have moments I think it is one way and moments I think it's the other way depending on the video I am watching, It also changes when I cover everything except the wing. Somehow I think this vexing question is with a for quite some time.  Especially since ETNZ appears much faster than LR so even if we see OR and LR line up we still won't be any the wiser!



#64 lehel1

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:22 PM

awesome stuff !    has anyone caught that oracle is using two different foiling boards on each side ?



#65 Rennmaus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:30 PM

awesome stuff !    has anyone caught that oracle is using two different foiling boards on each side ?

 

 

Usual practice by all teams.

Maximize practice time?

Asymmetrical "chassis setting"?



#66 Broachman

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 06:52 AM

Fantastic video work JNavas! Fantastic!!! 






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