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Hobie 16 Mast rotation limiter


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#1 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:39 PM

The stops on my H16 are worn causing the mast to rotate too far. Changing out the mast step is going to be a major, with potential to become a full fledged fucking disaster.

 

Class rules don't matter. 

 

Any bright ideas to make a really simple system that will stop it from rotating too far. I can't stop think about rubber strap wrenches, but something a little better must be possible. In fitting with the rest of the boat, cheaper will be better.

 

Have at it.



#2 Scarecrow

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:43 PM

Sorry don't have a photo as it is almost 20 years since I've done this.  You want to shape a stainless doubler to put over the top and down the sides.  A small tab down the front will give you a way to locate it.

 

Attached File  HOBIE STOP.jpg   30.46K   23 downloads



#3 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:14 AM

Why not just take a grinder to the two mating parts a little to square/freshen up the edges?  Sure, it would rotate 1/8" farther than when new, so what?

 

If it's gotten really really bad, a weld bead on the edges, then grind them back to shape.



#4 Scarecrow

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:20 AM

main issue is the bottom edges get warn down so the two parts end up missing (not helped by crazy rake used by hobies to load up the rudders so just buidling up the "mating" surfaces doesn't work.  Newer hobies have a taller leading edge on the step to stop this.



#5 jclarkdawe

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:56 AM

I'd go to the Hobie 16 forum Hobie sponsors and ask there. A lot of people who have lived and loved and loathed H16s for years and know a lot about them. Show up with some pictures, because a lot of people think they've got rotation problems and probably don't. I've got an older H16 and the rotation is something crazy, combined with a funky rake and blocking the main sheet.

 

Over rotation is going to cause you some pointing ability and de-power the sail some. It's not likely to come out of the socket.

 

Here's two sites on replacing the mast step -- http://www.thebeachc...g2_itemId=12223 and http://www.hobiecat....opic.php?t=7079

 

Best of luck,

 

Jim Clark-Dawe



#6 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:28 AM

I think I'm going to try something like Scarecrow suggested. Glad to hear the over rotation is not a huge deal. I think I could get the old step off it's threaded post and buy a new(er)  one.



#7 Bsquared

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:48 PM

If you're not racing, add an aft-facing rotation arm and tie it to the center lacing in the tramp.  The arm limits the rotation, and the line provides the same limit on both sides.  Might be a knee knocker, though.  Could point it forward and tie the line to the dolphin striker, but then have to worry about hanging up the jib sheets.



#8 stampede

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 06:03 PM

here in germany we cut these stops away to have more rotation. it's recommended in the tuning manual. Over Rotation could easily be controlled by tensioning the shrouds.

 

What is the issue ???

 

greetings



#9 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:46 PM

I guess the issue is that it looks it rotates too much to me when going upwind. I can't seem to go up wind for shit, that said I do know that h16's generally don't. I would have thought that the original settings on a new mast base allow for the right amount of rotation upwind and not enough downwind.

My stops are definitely very worn out. The mainsheet seems to induce rotation, to the point where I would be surprised if rig tension would stop it.

Should I just pull the jib halyard as hard as I fucking can?

#10 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:55 AM

The mainsheet does induce rotation.  It is supposed to.

 

You'll never get the rig tight enough to stop rotation.  If you did, you'd have to hand rotate the mast each tack.

 

Most H16 sailors want more mast rake, so pulling the jib halyard super tight isn't the answer.

 

More rotation means more power.  The H16 is heavy for its sail area, so more power is usually good.

 

Work on your trim and weight balance.  Are your sails in good shape?



#11 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:35 AM

Ha, ha. Had to laugh. No the sails are in terrible shape. I think they are the 1983 originals. I bought the boat pretty much derelict I have definitely polished a turd in getting it running. I like to run it on a shoe string and make / repair stuff. I am cheap and am having my own small rebellion against throw away culture. I also quite like putzing around in my shed whilst worrying that most of my generation don't know what a screwdriver is.

I agree that rig tension won't help, not sure that it has much effect on rake though. Set the shrouds for rake and halyard tension won't pull the rake out.

I have had an idea I might try though. My boat has jib blocks on tracks and seperate cleats mounted inboard on the front beam. There is a set of blocks with integral cleats on flea bay for cheap. That would leave my original cleats redundant. Small arm off the back of the mast, simples.

#12 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:22 AM

More rotation means more power.  The H16 is heavy for its sail area, so more power is usually good.

Maybe on a mast with diamonds it does, but not on a H-16.  More rotation = less power because the mast bends more, flattening out the sail.

 

And a Hobie 16 is wildly overpowered - it only has 7 sq ft. less sail area than an F-18, and weighs 80 lbs less.

 

Replacing the mast step is fairly easy, even if the old step is corrosion welded to the dolphin striker.

1) loosen the nuts on the dolphin striker.

2) drill the heads off the 4 rivets that hold the base to the front crossbar, then drive the rivet tails in with a 3/16" punch

3) use a dead blow hammer to hammer up on the dolphin striker so the base comes off the front crossbar.

4) unscrew the old base (big-ass monkey wrench helps).  If it's frozen on, use a hacksaw or a angle grinder to put a couple of vertical cuts in nearly to the center, then use a cold chisel to split it.

5) clean up the threads with a wire brush and screw on the new step.

6) use a scissors jack (car jack) between the crossbar and the dolphin striker to pull it back down.  You can use clamps, too.

7) drill hols for new rivets, install new rivets to hold to crossbar.

8) re-tighten dolphin striker nuts.

 

This shouldn't take you more than an hour. 



#13 Scarecrow

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:29 AM

More rotation means more power.  The H16 is heavy for its sail area, so more power is usually good.

Maybe on a mast with diamonds it does, but not on a H-16.  More rotation = less power because the mast bends more, flattening out the sail.

 

And a Hobie 16 is wildly overpowered - it only has 7 sq ft. less sail area than an F-18, and weighs 80 lbs less.

 

Replacing the mast step is fairly easy, even if the old step is corrosion welded to the dolphin striker.

1) loosen the nuts on the dolphin striker.

2) drill the heads off the 4 rivets that hold the base to the front crossbar, then drive the rivet tails in with a 3/16" punch

3) use a dead blow hammer to hammer up on the dolphin striker so the base comes off the front crossbar.

4) unscrew the old base (big-ass monkey wrench helps).  If it's frozen on, use a hacksaw or a angle grinder to put a couple of vertical cuts in nearly to the center, then use a cold chisel to split it.

5) clean up the threads with a wire brush and screw on the new step.

6) use a scissors jack (car jack) between the crossbar and the dolphin striker to pull it back down.  You can use clamps, too.

7) drill hols for new rivets, install new rivets to hold to crossbar.

8) re-tighten dolphin striker nuts.

 

This shouldn't take you more than an hour. 

Any comments on the statement above that people are grinding of the limiter to improve performance?



#14 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:38 AM

Any comments on the statement above that people are grinding of the limiter to improve performance?

 

Nobody does it in North America - or more importantly, Puerto Rico.  It's tough to win a North Americans without having Spanish as your native language (or Figueroa as your last name).

 

2012 - Enrique Figueroa

2011 - Francisco Figueroa

2010 - Enrique Figueroa

2009 - Enrique Figueroa

2008 - Francisco Figueroa

2007 - Aaron Worrall (Australian)

2006 - Enrique Figueroa

2005 - Enrique Figueroa

2004 - Armando Noriega, Jr.

2003 - Paul Hess << last time a person from the continental US won a North Americans

 

In places where there is consistently higher wind (Australia), I could see where cutting back the stops to depower would be beneficial, but it's not going to help you when you go to worlds and have to deal with factory-provided boats that you can't modify.



#15 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:19 AM

Thanks Hobie Anarchy, 

 

I everything you put there makes sense. My spare mast step left it's threads of the striker post when I separated the two, I guess I will live with it until a suitable replacement comes up super cheap on e bay. I was worried about getting the old step off the striker post without damaging something but I think it's ok, monkey wrenches are the key.



#16 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:30 PM

I guess I will live with it until a suitable replacement comes up super cheap on e bay.

 

That's a mistake - buck-up and get a new one.  They're 1000 times better than a "super cheap on on e bay" - that will undoubtedly have worn stops.



#17 david r

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:00 PM

Since you plan on getting a new used set of castings, consider playing with some stainless screws, a drill, a hacksaw blade etc, and some jb weld.



#18 Scarecrow

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:05 PM


Any comments on the statement above that people are grinding of the limiter to improve performance?

 
Nobody does it in North America - or more importantly, Puerto Rico.  It's tough to win a North Americans without having Spanish as your native language (or Figueroa as your last name).
 
2012 - Enrique Figueroa
2011 - Francisco Figueroa
2010 - Enrique Figueroa
2009 - Enrique Figueroa
2008 - Francisco Figueroa
2007 - Aaron Worrall (Australian)
2006 - Enrique Figueroa
2005 - Enrique Figueroa
2004 - Armando Noriega, Jr.
2003 - Paul Hess << last time a person from the continental US won a North Americans
 
In places where there is consistently higher wind (Australia), I could see where cutting back the stops to depower would be beneficial, but it's not going to help you when you go to worlds and have to deal with factory-provided boats that you can't modify.

Thanks, as I said above it is a long time since I played with hobie 16s and 14s but the post about grinding back the stops just didn't ring true.

#19 stampede

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:14 AM

The reason for grinding of the limiter is the following:

A wingshaped mast without diamonds does have different bend-characteristics according to it's axis (soft & hard side).  When rotating the mast out it will bend more while applying the same sheeting force. The mainsail and mainsheet act as a backstay which bends the mast in the middle-section This is why it helps you flattening the sail in strong winds and helps you building up more power downwind through wider rotation-angle.

 

These theory is supported by A. Landenberger "A-cat tuning tips" on his website in General and specially recommended for the H16 for those of you familiar with german in one of the most famous cat-books "Katamarane das buch" on page 160 from multiple german, european and world champion in F18 and Tornado Helge Sach.

 

have fun sailing



#20 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 10:55 AM

The reason for grinding of the limiter is the following:

A wingshaped mast without diamonds does have different bend-characteristics according to it's axis (soft & hard side).  When rotating the mast out it will bend more while applying the same sheeting force. The mainsail and mainsheet act as a backstay which bends the mast in the middle-section This is why it helps you flattening the sail in strong winds and helps you building up more power downwind through wider rotation-angle.

 

These theory is supported by A. Landenberger "A-cat tuning tips" on his website in General and specially recommended for the H16 for those of you familiar with german in one of the most famous cat-books "Katamarane das buch" on page 160 from multiple german, european and world champion in F18 and Tornado Helge Sach.

 

have fun sailing

 

That's all well and good, but it's not a common practice in North America.  We have the Comptip to help depower in heavier air, and like I said, getting used to cut back stops is useless at the worlds when the boats are provided (and you can't do anything to them).

 

I'd put more stock in advice from Jerome LeGal, Mick Butler, Shaun Ferry, Axel Silvy or Gavin Colby (all Hobie 16 world champs) than guys who have earned their championships on boats with diamond wires and daggerboards / centerboards.



#21 stampede

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:05 PM

All fine,

the original question was if the worn out limiters  urgently need replacement to prevent damage on the mast or other equipment. The boat seems to be old and money is limited. I'm just saying that there is no need to replace the limiters.



#22 knobblyoldjimbo

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:28 AM

in the Maricats we grind out the mast base.  For me it means that when going uphill, the mast is further over so when I pull hard on the mainsheet the mast bends more and the sail flattens.  I can adjust to the gusts by pulling harder then loosening off to get more fullness in the sail. 



#23 dacarls

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 04:54 PM

I had exactly this same problem on my new to me H16 (30 years old in Michigan fresh water only), but has stiff hulls. The straight Al mast would jump up out of the socket and ride over the tabs even with modest aft mast rake.  Tacking meant jerking it around to get it to rotate.  8^( 

 

I loaded the Hobie on the trailer and took it to a local dune buggy shop (2 miles away) where they weld aluminum chassis and cages. For $25, welder built new tabs onto the mast base, and ground them down a bit- when I wasn't there. 8^)  

 

I failed to tell him to make them SYMMETRICAL, so he didn't.  8^(  

At least the mast now rotates normally, although I had to grind the fat tab down a bit.

 

A LOT cheaper and easier than pulling the mast step off this old crossbar- I tried and it wanted to stick.   



#24 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 05:16 PM

MastBase.jpg

 

20200011.jpg

 

Now tell me that this isn't worth $100 to get rid of the old, beat up POS on your boat.



#25 dacarls

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 02:50 PM

By the way- is it still Hobie's favorite-- aluminum bearing surface on aluminum bearing surface, hopefully with a piece of Teflon in between?

I used to use copper pennies when the Teflon was lost.

Or how about a thin sheet of stainless steel?



#26 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:39 PM

By the way- is it still Hobie's favorite-- aluminum bearing surface on aluminum bearing surface, hopefully with a piece of Teflon in between?

I used to use copper pennies when the Teflon was lost.

Or how about a thin sheet of stainless steel?

For many years now I've cut the sides out of milk jugs, sort of in the shape of  a flower.  They last a full season.

Stainless would not be a good bearing, doncha think?



#27 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:17 PM

20200011.jpg

 

Ya see those six indents in the base of the cup?  Those hold the Teflon chip in just fine.  You can use the Delrin ones if you want to hear the squeaking all day long, but Teflon or UHMWPE works very well.



#28 dacarls

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:11 AM

5 years racing the darn things and I never thought of indents.  I thought of tapered mainsheets and lightening the boats, but...... no, not indents. Very Good!






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