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murray's law

Iain Murray Ruddergate AC72

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#1 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:12 PM

Iain Murray is doing a conf call with the press in 20 minutes.  Ask your ruddergate questions here.



#2 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

really?



#3 pominfrance

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:23 PM

Dear mr IM If your primary goals as you have stated is Safety and representing all the teams with fairness and impartiality why are 50% of the teams objecting to your safety recommendation on the grounds of safety and fairness?

#4 sam75

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:24 PM

An obvious one: As part of the safety review process, who suggested the changes to the rudder elevators that were included in the safety recommendations?



#5 ita289

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:27 PM

Isn't it inherently against safety and common sense to introduce ANY boat changes at this late time?



#6 Capt. K

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:30 PM

Do the changes in fact mean that ETNZ and LR are now out of class until they redesign their rudder foils (or can they maintain/race with their current design)?



#7 Blackman

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:30 PM

How can you edit rules to avoid a new drama, when nobody gave out the real trouble occured to Artemis in may? Is it not a priority to explain to the other teams what went wrong for them to make sailing safer?



#8 hoom

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:31 PM

Dejavu but hey, maybe we'll get some answers from Cayard Clean this time.

 

Why haven't you required bow volume changes/calculations?

Since you believe you can change anything & 'safety is paramount' why haven't you required that all teams sail Optimists?

Where did the highly specific numbers used for rudder rule changes come from?

How fucking retarded were you to make a direction that would ban the 2 teams with the safest programs in the name of safety? (original requirement for Symmetrical Ts)

Why did you ignore requests for safety improvements when they came from ETNZ & LR over a year ago when changes could have been agreed & made safely without risking the racing?

Why did you leave it so incredibly late to get a CG permit when you knew the date of racing years ago?



#9 LMI

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:32 PM

Given the safety committee could not agree on recommendations, and that 2 teams (NZ and Italy) that have extensive experience in the design and sailing of AC72s believe certain recommendations are not in the interest of safety, that a 3rd team (American's) some claim are also oppossed, and the 4th and final team has stated they can not have a boat ready in time for the first races, does IM feel he has adequate experience and insight to push for the recommendations over such widespread disagreement?

 

Given the known risk associated with this sport and this class of boats which was obvious since day 1, and that this very contest is supposed to be in part a design contest, is fairness given a back seat.  If a team had not designed a yacht that can be safely sailed under the rukles outlined and the conditions any given day should that team not forfit the race as they have failed the design aspect of the contest?



#10 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:33 PM

keep it up, just starting.



#11 mili

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:34 PM

Under this circunstances, regarding that it's not possible , legaly sspeaking, tu change design rules,wuoldn't it be better to delay the race until safety issues are taken, and thus avoid all speculation.



#12 Doug Lord

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:36 PM

Are you helping Oracle to cheat?

 

---------------------

PS- I don't believe this for a second but the anti-Oracle conspiracy theorists are full of it and addressing it directly, rather than beating around the bush might help-but probably not......



#13 Frank White

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:36 PM

keep it up, just starting.

Is it being broadcast anywhere?



#14 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:41 PM

"What ETNZ/LR is saying now is farcical"



No broadcast.  



#15 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:42 PM

Are you the cheating, lying bastard that so many posters here think you are, a 'GGYC employee' paid shill, thete to do OR's bidding, and intentionally making DR changes because OR has all kinds of design problems?

:)

#16 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:44 PM

"These skippers demanded to have control of these devices out on the water, and i've given them those controls"

 

"Symmetric foils is a far better solution"



#17 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December:  'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"



#18 ita289

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:47 PM

"These skippers demanded to have control of these devices out on the water, and i've given them those controls"

 

"Symmetric foils is a far better solution"

 

Which skippers? But then again, the simple fact that he still believes he can have any opinion on design matters is ludicrous.



#19 WetHog

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:47 PM

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December:  'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Interesting...

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#20 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:47 PM

is he being sued by any one on artemis accident 



#21 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:55 PM

Iain "After recommendations from Oracle capsize, the teams did nothing"



#22 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:57 PM

Q: ETNZ has stable foiling, Oracle does not.  This rule will change the balance between the teams, right?

 

A: Performance was not my job, and was no part of recommendations.



#23 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:58 PM

If the IJ rules for ETNZ, "I have no choice to go back to the CG and tell them that the safety plan hasn't been met, and find out if permit will be met or not met"



#24 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:02 PM

"Artemis can't comply with symmetric rudders, they don't have resources or time"



#25 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:04 PM

Murray's really bitchy right now



#26 atefooterz

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:04 PM

Why is scuttlebutt saying Iain is not happy?



#27 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:10 PM

Says the rudder diagrams/areas came from the teams; especially Giovanni Belgrade from ETNZ



#28 pjh

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:10 PM

Was the 100kg weight increase intended for Artemis?  Will they participate if it isn't approved?



#29 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:22 PM

ADM CLEAN  thanks for this exclusive Q & A with IM by you/SA

 

also thank IM for taking time to hear our questions -give some answers 

 

I dont think he is a total ahole but his latest run shows he has swayed from honesty

 

and why did he let acea only post MEP without attachments

 

so far the MEP is pubicly incomplete ON DISCLOSURE -WTF -- I M -  



#30 overdraft

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:35 PM

I have no comment on IM, he's in an untenable position where any decision will be viewed by some parties as the wrong one.

that said, there were some salient questions asked above that I'd like to know about, specifically:

• can ETNZ and LR compete with their existing rudders? (if not then having them hastily come up with new rudders mere days before racing can't possibly be safer than running what they have and understand)

• who/what/where was the genesis of the 'big adjustable rudder' as a 'safety' recommendation? ie. did the Artemis people say that their boat crashed due to an inadequate rudder elevator?

I'm hoping that there is video or a transcript of this press conference somewhere on the interweb so we can get more detail... links anyone?



#31 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:39 PM

"Why not go the whole way and approve flapped t-foil rudders and daggers?  That would clearly be the safest solution, yet you're not going after that."

 

"Why not add volume to the bows - a simple way to prevent catastrophic pitchpoles."

 

He ducked the bow volume question completely, but as to ride-height T-foils (a la Moth) or constantly adjustable rudders, Murray said "These things could actually create crashes, with so little time to develop and the problems with manually controlled surfaces, it wasn't feasible to go down this road"



I asked him how he could make those recommendations when there is still no report on the Artemis incident.  He said he knows what happened:

 

"Boat was in the process of capsizing when it broke, trapping Bart"



#32 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:42 PM

OVERDRAFT:

 

I tried to record it but the GoToMeeting thing wouldn't work with Screenflow. Sorry folks.

 

During mediation, Murray changed his rule to allow assymetric rudders so long as they have the minimum area. Both LR and ETNZ rudders comply currently.

 

Genesis of elevator changes came from:

 

Team interviews after Bart accident

Emails from teams dating back to last year (Giovanni Belgrano, ETNZ structural engineer cited frequently)



Very annoyed that my recording didn't work - that would have been quite the spectacle for you guys.  Next time.



#33 STYACHT

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:43 PM

is the beam exception directly related to symmetry? so now that asymmetric allowed, beam exclusion moot?

why not just enforce sym loading, trading area for pitch or camber? you don't need symmetry in plan form to have it loading.

last, is the Artemis issue solved, but not public? do the teams know all facts?

#34 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:43 PM

Was the 100kg weight increase intended for Artemis?  Will they participate if it isn't approved?

Wishy-washy answer about how the AC45s increased in weight because of repairs.  Presumably it is to allow some structural improvements without having to take weight out of somewhere else.



#35 pjh

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:43 PM

"Boat was in the process of capsizing when it broke, trapping Bart"

 

And as an exercise for the student, go find a picture of Big Red's rudders and rudder foils.  And then tell us with a straight face that the rudder rule changes aren't safety related.



#36 LMI

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:44 PM

Think I am misundertanding you.  Do you think he was intending to indicate that Artemis can NOT comply with his recommonded safety/rules change re rudders, or can not comply without the rule change?

"Artemis can't comply with symmetric rudders, they don't have resources or time"



#37 richardwangphotography

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:44 PM

Here's a good questions.

 

1.  Is it true that ACRM and the teams were in discussions in February on design issues relating to safety?

 

2.  And that the teams had come to a general agreement on allowing for changes in the shape, size and adjustability of the foils, rudder and winglets in March?



#38 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:44 PM

I got in more questions than anyone but that was one busy press conference.  Murray seems annoyed, indignant, and generally pissed off.



#39 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:46 PM

Think I am misundertanding you.  Do you think he was intending to indicate that Artemis can NOT comply with his recommonded safety/rules change re rudders, or can not comply without the rule change?

"Artemis can't comply with symmetric rudders, they don't have resources or time"

He was saying that Artemis couldn't comply with the symmetric rule, just no time to build symmetric rudders - that was one of the reasons he allowed, during mediation, the change to assymetric or symmetric.  Idea being that the teams that can build symmetrics will do so as quickly as they can, but they can raise 'as is' until then.



#40 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:47 PM

Here's a good questions.

 

1.  Is it true that ACRM and the teams were in discussions in February on design issues relating to safety?

 

2.  And that the teams had come to a general agreement on allowing for changes in the shape, size and adjustability of the foils, rudder and winglets in March?

1. Discussions went way back before that - to at least December last year and actually have been ongoing.

2. Murray says that Dalts and Sirena 'agreed in principle' to all changes in May when Murray posted his recommendations.  And he's shocked they are now fighting it.



#41 STYACHT

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:47 PM

I got in more questions than anyone but that was one busy press conference.  Murray seems annoyed, indignant, and generally pissed off.


no good deed goes unpunished.

#42 roca

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:49 PM

did he think to resign?



#43 buckdouger

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:58 PM

Here's a good questions.

 

1.  Is it true that ACRM and the teams were in discussions in February on design issues relating to safety?

 

2.  And that the teams had come to a general agreement on allowing for changes in the shape, size and adjustability of the foils, rudder and winglets in March?

1. Discussions went way back before that - to at least December last year and actually have been ongoing.

2. Murray says that Dalts and Sirena 'agreed in principle' to all changes in May when Murray posted his recommendations.  And he's shocked they are now fighting it.

Any sense of whether the 'agreed in May' 'fighting in June' comes from a revelation that OR had been using what was being proposed and thus would have had too much development time for comfort for them? 

Surely he must be able to marshal some idea of where the objection comes from - or just ask?



#44 Rennmaus

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:58 PM

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December:  'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Interesting...

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

 

And what has Deano's wish from December (maybe a Christmas wish) to do with the recent safety recommendations that were issued half a year later driven by the Artemis tragedy?



#45 WetHog

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:06 PM

 

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December: 'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Interesting...

 

WetHog

 

 

And what has Deano's wish from December (maybe a Christmas wish) to do with the recent safety recommendations that were issued half a year later driven by the Artemis tragedy?

 

It was interesting to me because ETNZ fans have placed OR as the source for all the supposed shaddy changes to the rudders, that OR wanted to adjust their rudder foils right before the start, but that bit showed that good old Tripod first proposed that "safety" change, not someone from OR. And subsequent posts by Clean show ETNZ and ETNZ-LR have been fully involved with all of the 37 safety recommendations and agreed to them "in principal". Now all of a sudden they have a change of heart. Why?

 

Regardless, some on here have been busting OR's and IM"s balls because it was ASSumed OR was trying to change the rules to suit them, well it doesn't appear to be that way.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

PS: I trust you are having a fabulous summer so far in Europe, Renny. ;)



#46 roca

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:07 PM

Q: ETNZ has stable foiling, Oracle does not.  This rule will change the balance between the teams, right?

 

A: Performance was not my job, and was no part of recommendations.

 

Was a fair cup with reliable rules  his job?



#47 dogwatch

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:11 PM

2. Murray says that Dalts and Sirena 'agreed in principle' to all changes in May when Murray posted his recommendations.  And he's shocked they are now fighting it.

Shocked? Bertelli spoke at length at the start of the review process, stating no class rule changes, no way, no how.

#48 Scary

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:13 PM

I have been a follower of SA for many years and enjoy your articles, i have not posted before in your forums however i am disappointed reading some of your articles.

I have know Ian for many many years and he is the highest level of respected sailor, designer,administrator,person, you could ask for to be presiding over this event. I am disappointed that there are so many attacks on his standards and his ability to run a fair,safe interesting regatta. Some of you should pull your heads in and maybe get out on the water and do some sailing.

Ian is doing a amazing job for the sport and I worry for him a every week,as he does not look like the relaxed man I know him to be.So please back off

When we have people willing to put their hand up to administer our racing when instead they could be out sailing them selves or spending time with their family rather than making sure your racing is done just right.Be a bit more respectful of these people as without them be it the AC or your club race it would not happen.
I'm not interested in getting involved in a backward and forward discussion. If your all adults start behaving like it .

#49 roca

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:13 PM

Regardless, some on here have been busting OR's and IM"s balls because it was ASSumed OR was trying to change the rules to suit them, well it doesn't appear to be that way.

 

I am sorry but there is no way that this makes the facts appear different, it could only prove once more that ETNZ is many months ahead of OR and that they overcame problems still open for OR. Plus we all know that with the oracle design concept is much more difficoult to overcome, if possible.



#50 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:17 PM

 

 

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December: 'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Interesting...

 

WetHog

 

 

And what has Deano's wish from December (maybe a Christmas wish) to do with the recent safety recommendations that were issued half a year later driven by the Artemis tragedy?

 

It was interesting to me because ETNZ fans have placed OR as the source for all the supposed shaddy changes to the rudders, that OR wanted to adjust their rudder foils right before the start, but that bit showed that good old Tripod first proposed that "safety" change, not someone from OR. And subsequent posts by Clean show ETNZ and ETNZ-LR have been fully involved with all of the 37 safety recommendations and agreed to them "in principal". Now all of a sudden they have a change of heart. Why?

 

Regardless, some on here have been busting OR's and IM"s balls because it was ASSumed OR was trying to change the rules to suit them, well it doesn't appear to be that way.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

PS: I trust you are having a fabulous summer so far in Europe, Renny. ;)

I think it is pretty obvious that ETNZ and LR are being opportunistic feeders here; they have now had the time to watch OTUSA 2 pitching around unstably, and figure that they have a better chance against a hobbyhorsing Oracle than under a more controlled boat.  I think it is that simple.

 

The other factor is that, even if they like the elevator changes, ETNZ/LR really, really don't want a precedent set that allows Murray to circumvent class rules any time he feels like it by just amending the MEP.  



#51 Rennmaus

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:20 PM

 

 

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December: 'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Interesting...

 

WetHog

 

 

And what has Deano's wish from December (maybe a Christmas wish) to do with the recent safety recommendations that were issued half a year later driven by the Artemis tragedy?

 

It was interesting to me because ETNZ fans have placed OR as the source for all the supposed shaddy changes to the rudders, that OR wanted to adjust their rudder foils right before the start, but that bit showed that good old Tripod first proposed that "safety" change, not someone from OR. And subsequent posts by Clean show ETNZ and ETNZ-LR have been fully involved with all of the 37 safety recommendations and agreed to them "in principal". Now all of a sudden they have a change of heart. Why?

 

Regardless, some on here have been busting OR's and IM"s balls because it was ASSumed OR was trying to change the rules to suit them, well it doesn't appear to be that way.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

PS: I trust you are having a fabulous summer so far in Europe, Renny. ;)

 

Summer could be better, less wet and warmer actually. Abysmal weather this year, looking forward to SF, hahaha! See you there?

 

Basically agree with what you wrote. Some days ago I asked why it all went that far, although Jim Farmer was on the expert panel too. Got no answer. "In principal" tho should have made IM suspicious. This is the AC, so as a professional, even if emotionally strained, he should have realized that nothing is agreed without the required signatures. Very, very basic business (and sport is a business) rule.

 

Anyway, I am sure that every team, many individual team members and other stakeholders submitted wishes and recommendations to IM, ACRM, ACEA et al. during the last years. If due diligence had prevailed, they would have been assessed, rated and rejected or recommended for a rule change in time. And not in a rushed effort without adhering to the processes 10 days before the regatta starts.



#52 pjh

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:20 PM

Was the 100kg weight increase intended for Artemis?  Will they participate if it isn't approved?

Wishy-washy answer about how the AC45s increased in weight because of repairs.  Presumably it is to allow some structural improvements without having to take weight out of somewhere else.

The answer may have been less that clear, but it looks to me like the answers are "yes" and "maybe"



#53 Shipstores

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:20 PM

 

 

 

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December: 'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Interesting...

 

WetHog

 

 

And what has Deano's wish from December (maybe a Christmas wish) to do with the recent safety recommendations that were issued half a year later driven by the Artemis tragedy?

 

It was interesting to me because ETNZ fans have placed OR as the source for all the supposed shaddy changes to the rudders, that OR wanted to adjust their rudder foils right before the start, but that bit showed that good old Tripod first proposed that "safety" change, not someone from OR. And subsequent posts by Clean show ETNZ and ETNZ-LR have been fully involved with all of the 37 safety recommendations and agreed to them "in principal". Now all of a sudden they have a change of heart. Why?

 

Regardless, some on here have been busting OR's and IM"s balls because it was ASSumed OR was trying to change the rules to suit them, well it doesn't appear to be that way.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

PS: I trust you are having a fabulous summer so far in Europe, Renny. ;)

I think it is pretty obvious that ETNZ and LR are being opportunistic feeders here; they have now had the time to watch OTUSA 2 pitching around unstably, and figure that they have a better chance against a hobbyhorsing Oracle than under a more controlled boat.  I think it is that simple.

 

The other factor is that, even if they like the elevator changes, ETNZ/LR really, really don't want a precedent set that allows Murray to circumvent class rules any time he feels like it by just amending the MEP.  

 

Who is being opportunistic though? Wanting these changes last year is very different to being told to make them a few weeks before the regatta starts. Especially when the opposition has been sailing in this configuration for a few months.



#54 roca

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:23 PM

"What ETNZ/LR is saying now is farcical"



No broadcast.  

 

Il bue dice cornuto all'asino



#55 buckdouger

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:25 PM

 

 

 

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December: 'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Interesting...

 

WetHog

 

 

And what has Deano's wish from December (maybe a Christmas wish) to do with the recent safety recommendations that were issued half a year later driven by the Artemis tragedy?

 

It was interesting to me because ETNZ fans have placed OR as the source for all the supposed shaddy changes to the rudders, that OR wanted to adjust their rudder foils right before the start, but that bit showed that good old Tripod first proposed that "safety" change, not someone from OR. And subsequent posts by Clean show ETNZ and ETNZ-LR have been fully involved with all of the 37 safety recommendations and agreed to them "in principal". Now all of a sudden they have a change of heart. Why?

 

Regardless, some on here have been busting OR's and IM"s balls because it was ASSumed OR was trying to change the rules to suit them, well it doesn't appear to be that way.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

PS: I trust you are having a fabulous summer so far in Europe, Renny. ;)

I think it is pretty obvious that ETNZ and LR are being opportunistic feeders here; they have now had the time to watch OTUSA 2 pitching around unstably, and figure that they have a better chance against a hobbyhorsing Oracle than under a more controlled boat.  I think it is that simple.

 

The other factor is that, even if they like the elevator changes, ETNZ/LR really, really don't want a precedent set that allows Murray to circumvent class rules any time he feels like it by just amending the MEP.  

It sounds like two sides of the same coin: OR has a hobby horse and can't conveniently change it because of their rudder placement, along comes an opportunity to increase rudder size that doesn't mess with their existing configuration, and they want to press their advantage hard, hence all of the safety emphasis by people who otherwise have been quite quiet on the marketing front. 

ETNZ/LR are not keen to cede ground for any reason, if their opponents have screwed up.



#56 polarbear

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:28 PM

If the IJ rules for ETNZ, "I have no choice to go back to the CG and tell them that the safety plan hasn't been met, and find out if permit will be met or not met"

 

 This is the interesting part I think.  So the IJ could rule against, and then he'll go to the CG and tell them the boats are not safe?  Then the CG will not issue permits?  This looking like a real clusterfuck.  I had high hopes when OR took the cup back from the Swiss.  Hopes are dashed on so many levels...  



#57 richardwangphotography

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:29 PM

Would anyone be surprised if I said the design changes were blocked by Artemis?

 

That Artemis knew that their entire design philosophy was wrong.

 

That Artemis thought that they had neither the time nor the money to scrape everything and start with a clean slate?

 

That Artemis wanted to either force all the teams back into the non-foiling box rules or at least mitigate their disadvantage?

 

That ETNZ is now using "Ruddergate" as a means of  turning the LVC into a single-stage elimination?

 

That Luna Rosa is now using "Ruddergate" as a means of forestalling being crushed by ETNZ since ETNZ already has a symmetrical rudder ready in their shed?



#58 richardwangphotography

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:36 PM

Edit:

 

Would anyone be surprised if I said that the design changes were initially blocked by Artemis?



#59 K38BOB

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:39 PM

I'd hope that the contentious parts of the "37" that are class rules related could be addressed by the teams as class rule changes before the IJ meets. Then the protests could be withdrawn. MEP amended accordingly (look its practically the same- just reorganized). AC looks  like they are grownups.

 

The trick would be of course to have the acceptable class rules changes. What would they be?



#60 Clipper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:48 PM

Tell whining stressed Iain Murray to harden the fuck up. People are saying what they say as be is doing something he does not have the power to do.

This ac cycle has made a lot of people look bad. He just joins an ever growing list.

#61 krispy kreme

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:07 PM

Clean didn't mention this tidbit:

 

Director threatens to scuttle America's Cup



#62 Xlot

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:12 PM

^
REALLY? You couldn't make this shit up .. (but I did say Aussie Napoleon)

Racing, if it does happen, is going to be anticlimactic

Edit: can somebody G-tran this (FV)?

http://www.farevela....rte-di-simpson/

#63 buckdouger

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:21 PM

Clean didn't mention this tidbit:

 

Director threatens to scuttle America's Cup

 

 

^
REALLY? You couldn't make this shit up .. (but I did say Aussie Napoleon)

Racing, if it does happen, is going to be anticlimactic

 

Is this just two different recollections of the same thing?

Clean relayed "I have no choice to go back to the CG and tell them that the safety plan hasn't been met, and find out if permit will be met or not met". 

I could see how that could be misconstrued either way, but there is a big difference in meaning between the two.



#64 Boybland

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:21 PM

Clean didn't mention this tidbit:

 

Director threatens to scuttle America's Cup

 

Ubelievable really that on a day when everyone else is watching ETNZ blast around the bay in what 25 knots? looking so comfortable they could drink lattes while they do it, IM is stating he thinks AC72's just can't be sailed safely...



#65 jaysper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:22 PM

2. Murray says that Dalts and Sirena 'agreed in principle' to all changes in May when Murray posted his recommendations.  And he's shocked they are now fighting it.

Shocked? Bertelli spoke at length at the start of the review process, stating no class rule changes, no way, no how.

 

 

Yup, and suggesting that ETNZ were on board because Dean Barker suggested it in December is a joke.

I feel a bit sorry for him cos he seems to be the dog thats getting wagged by the tail.



#66 K38BOB

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:24 PM

Clean didn't mention this tidbit:

 

Director threatens to scuttle America's Cup

 

 

>^
REALLY? You couldn't make this shit up .. (but I did say Aussie Napoleon)

Racing, if it does happen, is going to be anticlimactic

 

Is this just two different recollections of the same thing?

Clean relayed "I have no choice to go back to the CG and tell them that the safety plan hasn't been met, and find out if permit will be met or not met". 

I could see how that could be misconstrued either way, but there is a big difference in meaning between the two.

 

Thats the way I read it



#67 Rennmaus

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:25 PM

^
REALLY? You couldn't make this shit up .. (but I did say Aussie Napoleon)

Racing, if it does happen, is going to be anticlimactic

Edit: can somebody G-tran this (FV)?

http://www.farevela....rte-di-simpson/

 

http://translate.goo...rte-di-simpson/

 

Under protest America's Cup: Iain Murray responds by returning to Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa on charges that he take advantage of the death of Simpson
AMERICA'S CUP , MULTIHULL , SAILING | TOGNOZZI | JULY 3, 2013 8:16 PM

San Francisco, USA-It was definitely nervous this morning, at a press conference of fire in San Francisco, the America's Cup Race Director Iain Murray. Murray has set out its reasons on the now famous protest that threatens to undermine the America's Cup even before it starts. He did so much insisting on security measures, reporting email skipper of Emirates Team New Zealand, Dean Barker, who invited her to study changes to the rudders to encourage stability. Substantiate its technical recommendations shared in his opinion to May 22 by all the teams, and insisting, however, that these 37 measures are for the safety "of all the team." Murray appeared very tense from the human point of view and was let go in a "I am very offended, ETNZL and Luna Rossa they would be taking advantage of the death of Bart Simpson", which has left everyone speechless ...

Murraydevices.jpg

iain Murray, with Peter Rusch of americascup.com, shows the security apparatus during the press conference this morning in San Francisci. Photo Tognozzi

The direct answer was Max Sirena, he had said two days ago that Oracle and Artemis were doing "profiteering" on the disappearance of Simpson. Murray has motivated her choices also linking them to the permission of the U.S. Coast Guard, "without which there will be no racing with the AC72 in San Francisco Bay" but also announced that Emirates Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa are ready to race and are complying with safety regulations. We asked if you wanted to Luna Rossa, by the mouth of Matthew Plazzi, confirmed that "we are finalizing the operations of tonnage and the tonnage certificate that we will adjust within a few hours."

The question from the tail of the rudders, adjustable and fixed in ETNZL Oracle and Luna Rossa, is at the center of the protest lodged by the kiwi and the Italian team, and to be discussed on July 8. The International Jury composed of 5 members will come today in San Francisco, being soon have to face an unprecedented case in the history of the America's Cup ... In fact, the rating rules can be changed in the course of work, just a few days away the most important event of sailing? Not just secondary issue, such as the hand-shake by Iain Murray at the press conference clearly revealed. Murray replied that Emirates Team New Zealand have done an excellent job and that benefits are achieved at the top, unable to explain well because for them the safe navigation is also a fact in compliance with the class rules initials. Murray admits that ETNZL reached performance within the rules, not realizing that he had used the word "performance" instead of "security". And in the event of an unfavorable outcome of the protest for him, think about resignation? "I do not think so," he says, "I am in this role for the good of the team and named by the team at the suggestion of Paul Cayard"

Murray then goes on to show the security measures designed after the death of Simpson, with a "call" electronic sailors on board in the event of capsizing, strobe lights and other devices are military origin.



#68 clwgr

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:28 PM

^
REALLY? You couldn't make this shit up .. (but I did say Aussie Napoleon)

Racing, if it does happen, is going to be anticlimactic

Edit: can somebody G-tran this (FV)?

http://www.farevela....rte-di-simpson/

Saw Tom Ehman at Pier 23 during lunch yesterday. When speaking to a passerby (not me and I was not at lunch with him), he began to proceed to give an earful about the LR protest. Seems to be none to happy as one could imagine. 

Question: Is there enough popcorn for everyone to watch this show unfold?



#69 Oneyoti

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:32 PM

Dear mr IM If your primary goals as you have stated is Safety and representing all the teams with fairness and impartiality why are 50% of the teams objecting to your safety recommendation on the grounds of safety and fairness?

 

Missed the call but would like to add to the above..........................

 

Where did you get your advice from being that 2 AC teams are perfectly happy with the current rules and COINCIDENTALLY, unlike the 2 other teams, they've never PP.



#70 jaysper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:33 PM

 

I think it is pretty obvious that ETNZ and LR are being opportunistic feeders here; they have now had the time to watch OTUSA 2 pitching around unstably, and figure that they have a better chance against a hobbyhorsing Oracle than under a more controlled boat.  I think it is that simple.

: I trust you are having a fabulous summer so far in Europe, Renny. ;)

 

The other factor is that, even if they like the elevator changes, ETNZ/LR really, really don't want a precedent set that allows Murray to circumvent class rules any time he feels like it by just amending the MEP.  

 

Who is being opportunistic though? Wanting these changes last year is very different to being told to make them a few weeks before the regatta starts. Especially when the opposition has been sailing in this configuration for a few months.

 

So ETNZ/LR are being opportunistic feeders by wanting the original rules respected so that the design advantage they believe they have is not eroded?

But...OR is NOT being an opportunistic feeder by hopping on the safety wagon and getting themselves a speed advantage through a previously illegal appendage??

 

Huh? Clean??? I didn't see and <Sarcasm/> tags, but this is the only way that this can be coming from you right?

I know you can't edit video for shit, but even you don't buy that, RIGHT?



#71 Frenchy in Tampa

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:40 PM

Jasper,

I think Clean was saying ETNZ/LR were ALSO opportunistic feeders...

You cannot be in the AC and be an angel, you fight for your rights and if that means crushing competition then you take it.

Blue sky
D

#72 Xlot

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:41 PM

Thanks Rennie. Marginal editing:

San Francisco, USA-It was definitely nervous this morning, at a press conference of fire in San Francisco, the America's Cup Race Director Iain Murray. Murray set out its reasons on the now famous protest that threatens to undermine the America's Cup even before it starts. He did so much insisting on safety measures, reporting an email by skipper of Emirates Team New Zealand, Dean Barker, who invited him to study changes to the rudders to encourage stability. Substantiated his technical recommendations shared in his opinion until May 22 by all the teams, and insisting, however, that these 37 measures are for the safety "of all the teams". Murray appeared very tense from the human point of view and let go a "I am very offended, ETNZL and Luna Rossa they would be taking advantage of the death of Bart Simpson", which left everyone speechless ...


Murraydevices.jpg
iain Murray, with Peter Rusch of americascup.com, shows the safety apparatus during the press conference this morning in San Francisci. Photo Tognozzi

The direct answer was to Max Sirena, who had said two days ago that Oracle and Artemis were doing "profiteering" on the disappearance of Simpson. Murray motivated his choices also linking them to the permission of the U.S. Coast Guard, "without which there will be no racing with the AC72 in San Francisco Bay" but also announced that Emirates Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa are ready to race and are complying with safety regulations. We checked with Luna Rossa, and Matteo Plazzi, confirmed that "we are finalizing the measurement operations and we expect the certificate within a few hours."
The question from the tail of the rudders, adjustable and fixed in ETNZL Oracle and Luna Rossa, is at the center of the protest lodged by the Kiwi and the Italian team, and to be discussed on July 8. The International Jury composed of 5 members will come today in San Francisco, being soon have to face an unprecedented case in the history of the America's Cup ... In fact, can the rating rules be changed in the course of work, just a few days away the most important event of sailing? Not just secondary issues, such as the twitching hands of Iain Murray at the press conference clearly revealed. Murray replied that Emirates Team New Zealand have done an excellent job and that benefits are achieved at the top, unable to explain well because for them the safe navigation is also a fact in compliance with the class rules initials. Murray admits that ETNZL reached performance within the rules, not realizing that he had used the word "performance" instead of "safety". And in the event of an unfavorable outcome of the protest for him, think about resignation? "I do not think so," he says, "I am in this role for the good of the team and named by the team at the suggestion of Paul Cayard"
Murray then goes on to show the safety measures designed after the death of Simpson, with an electronic roll-call for sailors on board in the event of capsizing, strobe lights and other devices of military origin.

#73 ita289

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:45 PM

And this too: http://ventoevele.gazzetta.it/



#74 WetHog

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:46 PM

 

 

 

 

 

And what has Deano's wish from December (maybe a Christmas wish) to do with the recent safety recommendations that were issued half a year later driven by the Artemis tragedy?

 

It was interesting to me because ETNZ fans have placed OR as the source for all the supposed shaddy changes to the rudders, that OR wanted to adjust their rudder foils right before the start, but that bit showed that good old Tripod first proposed that "safety" change, not someone from OR. And subsequent posts by Clean show ETNZ and ETNZ-LR have been fully involved with all of the 37 safety recommendations and agreed to them "in principal". Now all of a sudden they have a change of heart. Why?

 

Regardless, some on here have been busting OR's and IM"s balls because it was ASSumed OR was trying to change the rules to suit them, well it doesn't appear to be that way.

 

WetHog

 

PS: I trust you are having a fabulous summer so far in Europe, Renny. ;)

I think it is pretty obvious that ETNZ and LR are being opportunistic feeders here; they have now had the time to watch OTUSA 2 pitching around unstably, and figure that they have a better chance against a hobbyhorsing Oracle than under a more controlled boat.  I think it is that simple.

 

The other factor is that, even if they like the elevator changes, ETNZ/LR really, really don't want a precedent set that allows Murray to circumvent class rules any time he feels like it by just amending the MEP.  

 

Who is being opportunistic though? Wanting these changes last year is very different to being told to make them a few weeks before the regatta starts. Especially when the opposition has been sailing in this configuration for a few months.

 

DB first suggested that ETNZ would like to adjust the rudders prior to a race starting last year, but IM said both ETNZ and ETNZ-LR were actively involved with the development of the 37 "suggestions" this year (especially ETNZ's structural engineer Giovanni Belgrano) after the death of Simpson, but now all of a sudden ETNZ and ETNZ-LR file a protest with the IJ after IM thought he had agreement from both teams "in principal".  Thats the issue.  Apparently thats why IM was so "bitchy" today. 

 

So all teams were involved in developing the 37 safety suggestions, but two (ETNZ and ETNZ-LR) decided at the last minute to challenge them.  "opportunistic feeders" indeed.  :lol:

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#75 jaysper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:47 PM

^
REALLY? You couldn't make this shit up .. (but I did say Aussie Napoleon)

Racing, if it does happen, is going to be anticlimactic

Edit: can somebody G-tran this (FV)?

http://www.farevela....rte-di-simpson/

Saw Tom Ehman at Pier 23 during lunch yesterday. When speaking to a passerby (not me and I was not at lunch with him), he began to proceed to give an earful about the LR protest. Seems to be none to happy as one could imagine. 

Question: Is there enough popcorn for everyone to watch this show unfold?

 

Worst run AC ever?



#76 jaysper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:50 PM

Jasper,

I think Clean was saying ETNZ/LR were ALSO opportunistic feeders...

You cannot be in the AC and be an angel, you fight for your rights and if that means crushing competition then you take it.

Blue sky
D

 

I agree that ETNZ/LR are fighting for their rights.

However, I think it is pretty disingenous of Clean so say they are opportunistic.

In order to be opportunistic, you have to take ADVANTAGE of a situationm.

They are not seeking an advantage, just wanting to maintain the status quo.

 

In fact, they have already ceded ground on the other 35 rules.



#77 Xlot

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:52 PM


Saw Tom Ehman at Pier 23 during lunch yesterday. When speaking to a passerby (not me and I was not at lunch with him), he began to proceed to give an earful about the LR protest. Seems to be none to happy as one could imagine. 

You mean like this? Thanks to ita289

[I'm beginning to think we Italians are going to get our 45M worth of fun, before ETNZ kick us out at the ~LV~ :D ]


d9b4abf2c3c3391ace78d140705020d3_zps1f11

#78 polarbear

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:53 PM

I have been a follower of SA for many years and enjoy your articles, i have not posted before in your forums however i am disappointed reading some of your articles.

I have know Ian for many many years and he is the highest level of respected sailor, designer,administrator,person, you could ask for to be presiding over this event. I am disappointed that there are so many attacks on his standards and his ability to run a fair,safe interesting regatta. Some of you should pull your heads in and maybe get out on the water and do some sailing.

Ian is doing a amazing job for the sport and I worry for him a every week,as he does not look like the relaxed man I know him to be.So please back off

When we have people willing to put their hand up to administer our racing when instead they could be out sailing them selves or spending time with their family rather than making sure your racing is done just right.Be a bit more respectful of these people as without them be it the AC or your club race it would not happen.
I'm not interested in getting involved in a backward and forward discussion. If your all adults start behaving like it .

 

 This is not like complaining about volunteers during a club race. This is the AC. If you can't can't take the heat, you should indeed go sailing and spend more time with your kids.  



#79 Frenchy in Tampa

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:53 PM

I agree

English not being my native language, I can sometimes misinterpret or not explain myself completely.

At this point in time, I just hope there will be a "fair" race sometime this year....

D

#80 wkd928

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:02 PM

Murray is a fucktard, a slimy fat fuck who will slither away into a hole lined by dollar bills with this being his crowning glory, the pinnacle of his achievement in the sport of sailing - to lie, cheat and abuse his position.



#81 Chris UK

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:02 PM

Ian Murray has such a hard job. I have only ever done it on the small scale and cannot imagine the pressure he is under. I wish him well. The only defence you have in the situation are the class rules. Stick within them and your ok (relative!), move away from them and all hell breaks loose. He had the hardest call to exceed the class rules and would only have done it after much soul searching. As i say, I wish him well. I have been vocal in calling Oracle cheats (never accused IM), but actually I probably need to call it a day. This is only a game. They all knew it wasn't life and death when they got involved. At the end of all this, everyone needs to be able to have a drink in the bar, its that smple. Good luck Ian Murray.

 

 

I got in more questions than anyone but that was one busy press conference.  Murray seems annoyed, indignant, and generally pissed off.



#82 nav

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:02 PM

I'm sure he could recollect hundreds maybe thousands of suggestions and requests for things that would 'improve' the Cup. Cherry picking a few to justify this bizarre insistence on one aspect of design, that even he seems to admit now may have unfair performance implications is very disturbing. What's he fighting for really?

 

Lost the plot.



#83 jaysper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

I agree

English not being my native language, I can sometimes misinterpret or not explain myself completely.

At this point in time, I just hope there will be a "fair" race sometime this year....

D

 

Thats ok, English is a second language for most of us on these boards.

Unfortunately, many of us don't actually have a first language ;)

 

Yup, fair would be nice.

I think that the other 35 rule changes have already reduced the fairness of the cup, but all teams agreed so thats life.

But the attempt to push through these last 2 is just unacceptable.

 

Larry promised a fair chance at the cup and now is not delivering that.

Despite some of the rhetoric flying around here, he is in no way close to Evil Ernie.

However, his halo has definitely looks to be slipping.



#84 SW Sailor

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

 

 

 

"where did you hear that adjustable elevators til just before the race"

 

"Dean Barker email dated December: 'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Interesting...

 

WetHog

 

 

And what has Deano's wish from December (maybe a Christmas wish) to do with the recent safety recommendations that were issued half a year later driven by the Artemis tragedy?

 

It was interesting to me because ETNZ fans have placed OR as the source for all the supposed shaddy changes to the rudders, that OR wanted to adjust their rudder foils right before the start, but that bit showed that good old Tripod first proposed that "safety" change, not someone from OR. And subsequent posts by Clean show ETNZ and ETNZ-LR have been fully involved with all of the 37 safety recommendations and agreed to them "in principal". Now all of a sudden they have a change of heart. Why?

 

Regardless, some on here have been busting OR's and IM"s balls because it was ASSumed OR was trying to change the rules to suit them, well it doesn't appear to be that way.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

PS: I trust you are having a fabulous summer so far in Europe, Renny. ;)

I think it is pretty obvious that ETNZ and LR are being opportunistic feeders here; they have now had the time to watch OTUSA 2 pitching around unstably, and figure that they have a better chance against a hobbyhorsing Oracle than under a more controlled boat.  I think it is that simple.

 

The other factor is that, even if they like the elevator changes, ETNZ/LR really, really don't want a precedent set that allows Murray to circumvent class rules any time he feels like it by just amending the MEP.  

 

Murray is scheduled to speak to the media on Wednesday morning. But on Tuesday, he expressed disappointment at the attack on his credibility and questioned Sirena’s timeline.

 

“Luna Rossa was there six weeks ago, on May 22, when I handed out the rudder elevator requirements and all four teams agreed in principle to the proposal.

“On a personal level, I have to say I find it upsetting when people say these safety recommendations aren’t for safety but to increase the performance of one team,” Murray said. “The implication is that I’m doing this to favour ORACLE TEAM USA. That’s an attack on my character and I don’t accept that. Quite frankly I find it insulting.”

 

This sounds like IM doesn't particularly appreciate the way the press and others are handling things. It will be an interesting test of the press to see exactly how his press conference gets reported by different news media.

 

"Dean Barker email dated December: 'I would like to look at adjusting until the start of the race'"

 

Looks like after all they do listen to the teams and DB may well get his wish.

 

It appears "any time he feels like it" up to this point only includes fatalities. Seems rational.  



#85 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:08 PM

http://m.nzherald.co...jectid=10894680
Not much different in it

#86 jaysper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:11 PM

I'm sure he could recollect hundreds maybe thousands of suggestions and requests for things that would 'improve' the Cup. Cherry picking a few to justify this bizarre insistence on one aspect of design, that even he seems to admit now may have unfair performance implications is very disturbing. What's he fighting for really?

 

Lost the plot.

 

The sheer amount of grief that he has experience through the loss of his mate left him compromised and unable to fulfil his duties in this AC.

Either he or someone else should have recognised this and replaced him.

 

However, rather than acting maliciously, I think he is simply acting irrationally or perhaps is being manipulated.

Presumably something that could not have happened under happier circumstances.



#87 WetHog

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:13 PM

http://m.nzherald.co...jectid=10894680
Not much different in it

 

Found this interesting tidbit at the end:

 

Murray said he finds it difficult to understand why Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa are protesting when both teams said they were supportive of all 37 safety recommendations when they were unveiled at a meeting on May 22 following extensive consultation with all the teams.

 

"After that meeting Grant Dalton came up to me and shook my hand in front of the other teams and said 'you won't get any push back from Team New Zealand'," Murray said.

 

American, Italian, Kiwi, etc..., hand shakes don't mean what they used to anymore it would seem.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#88 Indio

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:14 PM

I'd hope that the contentious parts of the "37" that are class rules related could be addressed by the teams as class rule changes before the IJ meets. Then the protests could be withdrawn. MEP amended accordingly (look its practically the same- just reorganized). AC looks  like they are grownups.

 

The trick would be of course to have the acceptable class rules changes. What would they be?

As the only poster who appear to have first-hand experience in MEP dealings with CG, are you really all that surprised about Murray's comment: "I will have to inform the Coastguard that the safety plan has not been met, and then discussion will have to take place whether the permit to race stands or it doesn't stand." ?  I mean he has to inform CG that 3 of his 37 safety undertakings have just been scuttled (if the Jury rules against him), and resubmit ?

 

I think it's very disingenuous of Murray to sit there and claim that the removal of the 3 Class Rule "safety" changes now make racing unsafe, when the enforcement of the rules changes could make the two compliant boats potentially unsafe.

 

By going public when the Jury is about to convene, Murray must feel the Jury will rule against him, and trying to garner public support and attempting to put pressure on the Jury with outrageous claims puts further strains on his credibility and motivation for the changes. I think he has just made his position totally untenable if, as expected, the Jury upholds the applications.



#89 WetHog

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:15 PM

The sheer amount of grief that he has experience through the loss of his mate left him compromised and unable to fulfil his duties in this AC.

Either he or someone else should have recognised this and replaced him.

 

However, rather than acting maliciously, I think he is simply acting irrationally or perhaps is being manipulated.

Presumably something that could not have happened under happier circumstances.

 

IM was clearly manipulated by ETNZ and ETNZ-LR, hence his "bitchy" mood today.

 

This cycle of the AC has devolved into a mess, but it has devolved due to the actions of ALL teams involved.  Not a select few, primarily the Defender.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#90 idontwan2know

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:16 PM

It is truly amazing the ability of people to twist facts and statements to fit into their existing worldview.

 

There is literally nothing IM could say or do at this point that would not be further evidence of the conspiracy to some.



#91 nav

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:18 PM

I'm sure he could recollect hundreds maybe thousands of suggestions and requests for things that would 'improve' the Cup. Cherry picking a few to justify this bizarre insistence on one aspect of design, that even he seems to admit now may have unfair performance implications is very disturbing. What's he fighting for really?

 

Lost the plot.

 

The sheer amount of grief that he has experience through the loss of his mate left him compromised and unable to fulfil his duties in this AC.

Either he or someone else should have recognised this and replaced him.

 

However, rather than acting maliciously, I think he is simply acting irrationally or perhaps is being manipulated.

Presumably something that could not have happened under happier circumstances.

 

Yep several possibilities there, but to allow things to go so far means that others are not working as they should be either - as sounding boards etc

 

Other parties involved have now stated the 'mature' response, that they will respect the IJ decision, while IM (if you can believe the reports) is still piling on the pressure and making further threats :(



#92 Ex-yachtie

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:23 PM

If DB asked for rudder adjustment earlier in the peace, why did IM say no?

#93 jaysper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

^

So from IM's own mouth (paraphrasing):

 

1. ETNZ & LR's rudders are currently compliant with both the current and new rule.

2. If the new rule is rejected, he can't put his hand on heart and say that the boats will be safe.

3. AR don't have the ability to change their rudders.

 

 

Ummm, huh?

So if ETNZ/LR race with their current rudders under the new rule, they will be SAFE.

But if they race with their current rudders under the current rule, they will be UNSAFE?

 

How the hell does that work?

This is pretty strong evidence that these rules are for the "safety" of OR only.



#94 pjh

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

The 'mature' response would be to come to a mutual agreement and withdraw the protests.

#95 olboss

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:26 PM

IM:

"After consultation with the teams over the past two weeks, I have been persuaded on a third point. The elevators can be symmetrical or asymmetrical. The penalty for offsetting the elevator (referred to as asymmetric) to one side of the rudder is that it introduces a bending moment into the 2.1 metre span of the rudder and as a result the rudders need to be stronger and heavier in construction."

 

Based on this statement... It seems Murray should go to the Coast Guard with the recommendation the boats must either sail with sufficiently strong asymmetrical or symmetrical elevator/rudder combos. If the IJ upholds the ETNZ/LR protest, then symmetrical elevators remain illegal within the class rules, and while the Coast Guard should have no problem with the safety of either combination, every team must prove to them that they have a sufficiently strong asymmetric combo to race a legal AC72 class boat.

 

Where's the problem?



#96 jaysper

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:26 PM

If DB asked for rudder adjustment earlier in the peace, why did IM say no?

 

Thats irrelevant really.

The point IM appeared to be making is that if ETNZ suggested the change in December 2012, then they have no right to complain about it when he suddenly spings the change on them in June 2013.

 

Ummmm, what?

Sorry, but too much of what is being said makes no sense.



#97 WetHog

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:29 PM

Yep several possibilities there, but to allow things to go so far means that others are not working as they should be either - as sounding boards etc

 

Others involved have now stated the 'mature' response, that they will respect the IJ decision, while IM (if you can believe the reports) is still piling on the pressure and making further threats :(

 

IM thinks he has all teams agreement in the 37 recommendations after the death of Simpson (hand shake agreement from GD to boot), then 2 of them go back on their word and challenge these recommendations after IM gets GC approval, and IM is the one piling on pressure and making further treats? Really?

 

WetHog :ph34r:



#98 Frenchy in Tampa

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:32 PM

IM:
"After consultation with the teams over the past two weeks, I have been persuaded on a third point. The elevators can be symmetrical or asymmetrical. The penalty for offsetting the elevator (referred to as asymmetric) to one side of the rudder is that it introduces a bending moment into the 2.1 metre span of the rudder and as a result the rudders need to be stronger and heavier in construction."
 
Based on this statement... It seems Murray should go to the Coast Guard with the recommendation the boats must either sail with sufficiently strong asymmetrical or symmetrical elevator/rudder combos. If the IJ upholds the ETNZ/LR protest, then symmetrical elevators remain illegal within the class rules, and while the Coast Guard should have no problem with the safety of either combination, every team must prove to them that they have a sufficiently strong asymmetric combo to race a legal AC72 class boat.
 
Where's the problem?


Symmetrical rudders are legal! Been legal from day one. What is illegal is if they are wider than max beam.
Assymetrical could be illegal if they were above max beam too!

IM:
"After consultation with the teams over the past two weeks, I have been persuaded on a third point. The elevators can be symmetrical or asymmetrical. The penalty for offsetting the elevator (referred to as asymmetric) to one side of the rudder is that it introduces a bending moment into the 2.1 metre span of the rudder and as a result the rudders need to be stronger and heavier in construction."
 
Based on this statement... It seems Murray should go to the Coast Guard with the recommendation the boats must either sail with sufficiently strong asymmetrical or symmetrical elevator/rudder combos. If the IJ upholds the ETNZ/LR protest, then symmetrical elevators remain illegal within the class rules, and while the Coast Guard should have no problem with the safety of either combination, every team must prove to them that they have a sufficiently strong asymmetric combo to race a legal AC72 class boat.
 
Where's the problem?


Symmetrical rudders are legal! Been legal from day one. What is illegal is if they are wider than max beam.
Assymetrical could be illegal if they were above max beam too!

#99 sam75

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:38 PM

I'm not sure that is correct, WetHog. ETNZ and LR didn't agree with the rudder rule changes during mediation, which was before the 37 recommendations were included in the CG permit application.

 

I am also surprised about the handshake agreement. My understanding (from quotes in the media) is the ETNZ and LR were always against changes to the class rules, but I may have missed something.



#100 Xlot

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:40 PM

By going public when the Jury is about to convene, Murray must feel the Jury will rule against him, and trying to garner public support and attempting to put pressure on the Jury with outrageous claims puts further strains on his credibility and motivation for the changes.[b] I think he has just made his position totally untenable if, as expected, the Jury upholds the applications.[b]

No sympathy from me, his integrity had manifestly been compromised at least since the farce of the protracted entry date for competitors.

So, where did I put my tricoteuse costume?

66d02da5ff26fe60f5c3a95646f7048f_zpscd14





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