Jump to content


LVC RR1 Race 2 10 July


  • Please log in to reply
105 replies to this topic

#1 eric e

eric e

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,517 posts
  • Location:the far east

Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:20 PM

youtube page is currently showing a 6 hr count down

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=M9TVxCREpgg

 

etnz vs AR

 

will etnz go around again by themselves???

 

or has the race already been called off and the drones have simply left the machines running...



#2 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:49 PM

youtube page is currently showing a 6 hr count down

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=M9TVxCREpgg

 

etnz vs AR

 

will etnz go around again by themselves???

 

or has the race already been called off and the drones have simply left the machines running...

 

Looks like it - way better than nothing.

 

At the skippers press conference IP said they had, 'offered the point to their opponent without them needing to sail' - but this had yet to be decided upon by all partied.

 

The whole dock out palaver would have to come first right, so they'd be signs soon if it's happening or not.

 

The next race in the Louis Vuitton Cup is scheduled for Tuesday.

 

http://www.americasc...uis-vuitton-cup

 

(Why RR1 in the title - how many are you expecting?)



#3 eric e

eric e

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,517 posts
  • Location:the far east

Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

pity

 

no time for another sign

 

Attached File  CC130212-542-570x379.jpg   98.28K   10 downloads



#4 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,126 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:59 PM

Since ETNZ opted for the longer course choice on Sunday it's likely they see good value in 'racing' as practice.

And so even if it came to a vote (that AR races should not even be organized upon a now-show notice from AR) then ETNZ might vote Nay, we want that course time to ourselves.

#5 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:28 PM

http://www.americasc...day-of-practice

 

Tomorrow’s action on the water will be broadcast on the America’s Cup YouTube channel (subject to territorial restrictions), beginning at 12:00 pm PT.



#6 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:06 PM

Broadcast has started for those that are not blocked - RR race #2 ETNZ vs a ghost

 



#7 Barnyb

Barnyb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,424 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:11 PM

MOB!



#8 Alpina

Alpina

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,107 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:11 PM

2x ETNZ sailors in the drink @ 6:00 to start?!



#9 Love2Sail

Love2Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 388 posts
  • Location:Iowa city, Iowa

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:12 PM

Lost a man!



#10 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:13 PM

Still 11 on board



#11 Rennmaus

Rennmaus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,821 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:15 PM

Broadcast has started for those that are not blocked - RR race #2 ETNZ vs a ghost

 

And the others should try with a proxy. Worked like a charm when GER was shut out of the ACWS.



#12 Alpina

Alpina

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,107 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:16 PM

Nailed the start foiling at 35 knots. 39 knots towards the first mark, impressive...



#13 Capt. K

Capt. K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 286 posts
  • Location:Indy
  • Interests:Things that float on liquid H20

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:17 PM

Hmm, crazy idea but perhaps they staged a man overboard to prove a point about foil size and safety?  Will need to see the replay though.  



#14 Alpina

Alpina

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,107 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:20 PM

In water graphics trail marker is the kiwi swish...



#15 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:21 PM

The silver ferns in the wake - nice touch LiveLine :D



#16 meowmeow

meowmeow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 395 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:22 PM

too freaking cool, can't wait to see another boat in that beautiful setting



#17 vij

vij

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 202 posts
  • Interests:Born Swedish. Lives in Switzerland

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:30 PM

Broadcast has started for those that are not blocked - RR race #2 ETNZ vs a ghost

 

And the others should try with a proxy. Worked like a charm when GER was shut out of the ACWS.

 

 

Do you have a link?



#18 Rennmaus

Rennmaus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,821 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:35 PM

 

Broadcast has started for those that are not blocked - RR race #2 ETNZ vs a ghost

 

And the others should try with a proxy. Worked like a charm when GER was shut out of the ACWS.

 

 

Do you have a link?

 

One link???

See here: http://forums.sailin...36478&p=4206257



#19 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:38 PM

^ vij, Sweden is blocked? There's not even a broadcaster there according to this, although that is hard to believe..

 

http://www.americasc...about/broadcast



#20 doesitfloat

doesitfloat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 509 posts
  • Location:Detroit Hell Hole

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:41 PM

8:40 Is a wide shot where you can see 2 people jump off the boat.



#21 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:41 PM

Water trail graphics for the other 3 teams?

 

Artemis: sticking plaster? (Tree crowns)

Luna Rossa: The fish?

OTUSA: $ ?



#22 meowmeow

meowmeow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 395 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:52 PM

wake graphics:

 

Luna Rossa: Prada handbag

Oracle: software update reminder

Artemis: Cayard's face



#23 RMac

RMac

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 496 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:53 PM

I think they're doing a good job of giving us good technical speak, figuring no one but a sailor would watch 40 minutes of a boat sailing around!

 

And did you hear Andy say NZ was "as stable as a tractor"  Priceless!

 

I've been an NZ fan in past cups, and it's absolutely stellar to see how great their sailing looks. 



#24 Quirky Torok

Quirky Torok

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:I like any thing wet..

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:54 PM

Murrey Jones just sounds so deflated.. I think he can see just how good ETNZ is. 

 

When Andy green asked about foiling gybes Murreys response was "yes we can, but its difficult to do all the time" as ETNZ completed foiling gybe after foiling gybe... \However Murrey did explain OR were in a different phase of training... only now are they looking at race training... yeah right.. mhmmmm that's what it will be then Murrey.. 

 

 

Sorry to be so biased.. but stuff me ETNZ are awesome... for a non race they should be worrying OR. 



#25 vij

vij

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 202 posts
  • Interests:Born Swedish. Lives in Switzerland

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:55 PM

^ vij, Sweden is blocked? There's not even a broadcaster there according to this, although that is hard to believe..

 

http://www.americasc...about/broadcast

 

 

To make it more complicated I am in France and have no canal+ :-(   no sailing for me.



#26 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:57 PM

They got rid of that annoying motor noise somehow. Maybe it's further back, maybe they filtered it out, maybe it was the motor on the TVCat and they just turned that mic off?

I like it!



#27 Alpina

Alpina

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,107 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:59 PM

TNZ foil gybes pretty consistently now, impressive...



#28 Enzedel 92

Enzedel 92

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,846 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

42.9 knots



#29 street_Gang

street_Gang

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 225 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:07 PM

Boatspeed over 30Kts through a gybe = ! Very impressive



#30 Barnyb

Barnyb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,424 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:09 PM

What happened with the MOB. I was on the phone and just watching the pictures. TNZ start, then 2 guys in water, then start again?



#31 Kaihoe

Kaihoe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:16 PM

Murrey Jones just sounds so deflated.. I think he can see just how good ETNZ is. 

 

When Andy green asked about foiling gybes Murreys response was "yes we can, but its difficult to do all the time" as ETNZ completed foiling gybe after foiling gybe... \However Murrey did explain OR were in a different phase of training... only now are they looking at race training... yeah right.. mhmmmm that's what it will be then Murrey.. 

 

 

Sorry to be so biased.. but stuff me ETNZ are awesome... for a non race they should be worrying OR. 

Nice work to Andy Green in commentary - some good questions to MJ, great hearing the TNZ guy in Race 1 and now OR...hopefully AR and LR as guests to follow.



#32 burbanite

burbanite

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 316 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:16 PM

8:40 Is a wide shot where you can see 2 people jump off the boat.

 

 

I don't know much about sailing but I do know that this is SOP for these events, in fact in the past I have often seen them leave it until literally the last second to bail.



#33 k-f-u

k-f-u

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:23 PM

Attached File  ar-vs-etnz.jpg   33.38K   87 downloads

LOL... is Percy in the RIB in the background?



#34 ozchrisb

ozchrisb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 283 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:24 PM

8:40 Is a wide shot where you can see 2 people jump off the boat.

 

 

I don't know much about sailing but I do know that this is SOP for these events, in fact in the past I have often seen them leave it until literally the last second to bail.

I did used to be one guy jumping off the IACC boats with radios. I think they were "practicing" today as they had 3 minutes to go until comms shutdown. Interestingly it was guy with a laptop and one crew. Maybe they're picking crew at the last second based on conditions? Or they have an extra grinder to get all the hydro's primed?



#35 Qman

Qman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 500 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

class act



#36 Jazz Freak

Jazz Freak

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 111 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

Murrey Jones just sounds so deflated.. I think he can see just how good ETNZ is. 

 

When Andy green asked about foiling gybes Murreys response was "yes we can, but its difficult to do all the time" as ETNZ completed foiling gybe after foiling gybe... \However Murrey did explain OR were in a different phase of training... only now are they looking at race training... yeah right.. mhmmmm that's what it will be then Murrey.. 

 

 

Sorry to be so biased.. but stuff me ETNZ are awesome... for a non race they should be worrying OR. 

Nice work to Andy Green in commentary - some good questions to MJ, great hearing the TNZ guy in Race 1 and now OR...hopefully AR and LR as guests to follow.

agreed, they all did a great job today



#37 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:26 PM

attachicon.gifar-vs-etnz.jpg

LOL... is Percy in the RIB in the background?

 

Wasn't that him in the water? At least he's try'n :D

 

Nice job by all the technical guys, better commentating, less snideness, good guest (but you don't have to tell us you're going to be quiet so we can watch the spectacular Team New Zealand blasting down the spectacular San .......blah blah blah... Shhhh!)

 

Time now to switch to the St. Francis cam to watch OTUSA Ver 1 & 2
 



#38 bruno

bruno

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,986 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:08 PM

ETNZ looking solid, sailing impressively. Interesting point MJ made about leeway and spray.

#39 kadyca

kadyca

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,068 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:11 PM

Hmm, crazy idea but perhaps they staged a man overboard to prove a point about foil size and safety?  Will need to see the replay though.  

 

 

It's been pretty common practice in the AC for quite some while now that the weather guys jump off the boat at the last minute with any gear not allowed during racing. 



#40 Indio

Indio

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,716 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:18 PM

Murrey Jones just sounds so deflated.. I think he can see just how good ETNZ is. 

 

When Andy green asked about foiling gybes Murreys response was "yes we can, but its difficult to do all the time" as ETNZ completed foiling gybe after foiling gybe... \However Murrey did explain OR were in a different phase of training... only now are they looking at race training... yeah right.. mhmmmm that's what it will be then Murrey.. 

 

 

Sorry to be so biased.. but stuff me ETNZ are awesome... for a non race they should be worrying OR. 

Murray Jones sounds like that all the time  :) .



#41 Indio

Indio

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,716 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:22 PM

Nice job today Andy Green, and your co-commentator as well. Tell the producer to eliminate the gap-filler taped interviews and stay with the live feed at all times: the races are only 45-46 minutes short enough as they are.

And can you please ask Stan Honey to uncloak AR next time so we can see them foiling .... backwards.



#42 dun

dun

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:27 PM

Nice job today Andy Green, and your co-commentator as well. Tell the producer to eliminate the gap-filler taped interviews and stay with the live feed at all times: the races are only 45-46 minutes short enough as they are.

And can you please ask Stan Honey to uncloak AR next time so we can see them foiling .... backwards.

i wish they would get it straight about AT, not rebuilding their first broken boat, but still putting together their second boat...

that's both coverages wrong...



#43 Dixie

Dixie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,690 posts
  • Location:SF

Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:28 PM

Watched from land and the one bummer we all felt is the looooonggggg delay from live to commentary. Anyone know the reason for this? I remember it was about 10 secs in SF / SD but today it was closer to 60 secs which is 1/4 of a leg downwind.

#44 Barnyb

Barnyb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,424 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:35 PM

  Very impressive display by Emirates Team NZ this morning in their solo race around San Francisco bay. Breeze was hovering around 16-18 knots, with the boys posting a top speed of 42.5 knots. It seems like they have got the foiling gybes pretty wired, often keeping their boatspeed above 31 knots as they turned downwind. Murray Jones (Oracle wing trimmer) was very quiet in the commentary box when asked about his team's ability to keep the boat on the foils during a gybe - perhaps a bit nervous?

#45 dun

dun

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:42 PM

Nice job today Andy Green, and your co-commentator as well. Tell the producer to eliminate the gap-filler taped interviews and stay with the live feed at all times: the races are only 45-46 minutes short enough as they are.

And can you please ask Stan Honey to uncloak AR next time so we can see them foiling .... backwards.

great job commentary,

and only mentioned safety twice this time!!

first race kinda wore the word out..:/



#46 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,126 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:06 PM

Water trail graphics for the other 3 teams?
 
Artemis: sticking plaster? (Tree crowns)
Luna Rossa: The fish?
OTUSA: $ ?


Funny topic.

Those ferns are great. Good detail and even looked like they floated on the water.

#47 Rohanoz

Rohanoz

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,490 posts
  • Location:Australian East Coast
  • Interests:A bad day sailing is still better than a good day at work.

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:16 PM

I would have liked to have seen a liveline overlay of NZ in race 1 to see how they did against themselves. Looks like they improved and smoothed out a lot of areas.

Coverage was great. Good commentary, nice tight and also wide shots.

Would be good to have a dashboard-style HUD in the corner of the screen at all times with boat speed, wind speed and angle, and accelerator or brake applied.

#48 Indio

Indio

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,716 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:24 PM

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?



#49 Desprit

Desprit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Location:Wellington, New Zealand

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:27 PM

I would have liked to have seen a liveline overlay of NZ in race 1 to see how they did against themselves. Looks like they improved and smoothed out a lot of areas.

Coverage was great. Good commentary, nice tight and also wide shots.

Would be good to have a dashboard-style HUD in the corner of the screen at all times with boat speed, wind speed and angle, and accelerator or brake applied.

 

 

Actually that is a very good idea. Would make the no shows more interesting to watch. It would give viewers a good idea of what difference windspeed makes to progress around the track.



#50 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,050 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:28 PM

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.



#51 noldor26

noldor26

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 42 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:38 PM

Actually what Jones said about Oracle rings true if you have been watching them closely over the last four months.  For a long time, they looked nowhere close to fybing and quite frankly even there archimedean mode gybes looked painfully slow.  But just in the last two videos (particularly JNavas' last one), their gybes are at a completely different speed and they even fybe occasionally.  This bares out MJ's statement that they had been working on straightline and now were transitioning to race maneouvers as the main focus.   

 

I am sorry NZL fans, I know that the ability to fybe has been your safety zone for believeing that NZL's long head start on the water would survive to the final but if you really think that OR will not be fybing easily by Cup time, you are simply delusional. 

 

I have long believed that Oracle would catch up in the downwind foiling and fybing...they have too much talent and resources not to.  So I'll predict what I have always thought this cup would come down to and what OR, at least from Boat 1's initial form, always did too: upwind performance.  Even with the one design AC45s, where did most of the passing occur (matchracing that is)?  On the upwind legs.  If the boats are at least in the same ball park (which I admit might certainly not be the case), I suspect it will be the same with the 72s as well.  I realize the first real leg is downwind and that hitting mark 2 in front will be important, but because they are traveling so fast, any advantage is always significantly minimized going downwind.  Even an apparent significant lead could be quite easily overcome if it turns out that one of the boats has a significant advantage on the long upwind leg.   

 

I'll always remember in AC 29 when NZL 32 and Young America crossed the start and headed upwind.  Several minutes in the fate of Dennis Connor and co was sealed when the onboard mics picked up a crew member lamenting:  "They're higher and faster Dennis."  NZL had better hope they are not on the wrong side of a repeat observation in two months time.



#52 Desprit

Desprit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Location:Wellington, New Zealand

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:46 PM

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.

Sometimes you are right. This is one of those times.



#53 Nutta

Nutta

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 889 posts
  • Location:Auckland, NZ
  • Interests:Technology, motorsport, fishing, photography, boats and all things that float.

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:51 PM

 

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.

Sometimes you are right. This is one of those times.

 

It's not one man. It's a team of people all doing the right things at the right time.

 

It may be it all falls into place straight away.

 

But I'd not want to bet a lot of money on that.



#54 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,126 posts

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:55 PM

Actually what Jones said about Oracle rings true if you have been watching them closely over the last four months.  For a long time, they looked nowhere close to fybing and quite frankly even there archimedean mode gybes looked painfully slow.  But just in the last two videos (particularly JNavas' last one), their gybes are at a completely different speed and they even fybe occasionally.  This bares out MJ's statement that they had been working on straightline and now were transitioning to race maneouvers as the main focus.   
 
I am sorry NZL fans, I know that the ability to fybe has been your safety zone for believeing that NZL's long head start on the water would survive to the final but if you really think that OR will not be fybing easily by Cup time, you are simply delusional. 
 
I have long believed that Oracle would catch up in the downwind foiling and fybing...they have too much talent and resources not to.  So I'll predict what I have always thought this cup would come down to and what OR, at least from Boat 1's initial form, always did too: upwind performance.  Even with the one design AC45s, where did most of the passing occur (matchracing that is)?  On the upwind legs.  If the boats are at least in the same ball park (which I admit might certainly not be the case), I suspect it will be the same with the 72s as well.  I realize the first real leg is downwind and that hitting mark 2 in front will be important, but because they are traveling so fast, any advantage is always significantly minimized going downwind.  Even an apparent significant lead could be quite easily overcome if it turns out that one of the boats has a significant advantage on the long upwind leg.   
 
I'll always remember in AC 29 when NZL 32 and Young America crossed the start and headed upwind.  Several minutes in the fate of Dennis Connor and co was sealed when the onboard mics picked up a crew member lamenting:  "They're higher and faster Dennis."  NZL had better hope they are not on the wrong side of a repeat observation in two months time.

I read it somewhere else too recently but MJ also hinted for a moment in his commentary today that the latest iteration of B1 may be the Cup boat, for being the faster upwind.

If you look at my (yes amateurish, but based on live ETNZ R1 data) chart, a lot of time and maneuvers happen upwind compared to down in even this Class.

#55 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,527 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:56 PM

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.

Ummm...i jumped on a moth and got on the foils the first time out as well.  Hell, even you could probably do it in SF breeze.



#56 pjh

pjh

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,849 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:59 PM

If you look at my (yes amateurish, but based on live ETNZ R1 data) chart, a lot of time and maneuvers happen upwind compared to down in even this Class.

 

Keep in mind that ETNZ have sailed the long course in their two RR1 races that has 2 3/4 downwind legs and 2 upwind legs.  The AC Match course is the short one, which has 1 3/4 downwind legs and 1 upwind leg.



#57 hoom

hoom

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,897 posts
  • Location:Orkland

Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:01 AM

in the last two videos (particularly JNavas' last one), their gybes are at a completely different speed and they even fybe occasionally.

They have worked out the timing of the foil lifting &/or angle adjustment.

They had the foil timing completely wrong compared to ETNZ for a long time.



#58 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,126 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:03 AM



If you look at my (yes amateurish, but based on live ETNZ R1 data) chart, a lot of time and maneuvers happen upwind compared to down in even this Class.

 
Keep in mind that ETNZ have sailed the long course in their two RR1 races that has 2 3/4 downwind legs and 2 upwind legs.  The AC Match course is the short one, which has 1 3/4 downwind legs and 1 upwind leg.
Excellent point, thx. But (edit)

That JS and BA will be alternating boats, and the boats alternating wings too, may also suggest it is still an open question.

#59 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,050 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:19 AM

 

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.

Ummm...i jumped on a moth and got on the foils the first time out as well.  Hell, even you could probably do it in SF breeze.

 

Just think - all you need to do is win a few national or world moth championships and an Olympic gold and you'll be at his level.



#60 Capt. K

Capt. K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 286 posts
  • Location:Indy
  • Interests:Things that float on liquid H20

Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:38 AM

I would have liked to have seen a liveline overlay of NZ in race 1 to see how they did against themselves. Looks like they improved and smoothed out a lot of areas.

Coverage was great. Good commentary, nice tight and also wide shots.

Would be good to have a dashboard-style HUD in the corner of the screen at all times with boat speed, wind speed and angle, and accelerator or brake applied.

 

 

Actually that is a very good idea. Would make the no shows more interesting to watch. It would give viewers a good idea of what difference windspeed makes to progress around the track.

 

That's a brilliant idea.   Perhaps the overlay could show their best run up to that point (or best run by any team)?  You should send it to Stan Honey or ACEM.



#61 Barnyb

Barnyb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,424 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:56 AM

 

ETNZ- LV Race 2: Putting on the only show

 

Published on Jul 9, 2013

Race two for Emirates Team New Zealand in the Louis Vuitton cup and surprise surprise it was a lonely race track again.
This didn't stop Dean Barker and the guys on the AC72 giving the crowds something cheer about from the race village.
www.facebook.com/EmiratesTeamNewZealand



#62 ~HHN92~

~HHN92~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,352 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:22 AM

The ferns and AG calling-out about the tractor are new classics.

 

ETNZ look good and smart in my book. Even without another boat they are learning, which is valuable no matter who your favorite is.

 

I think LR is going to look bad in more ways than one eventually. Lot's of catching-up to do.



#63 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,527 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:30 AM

I would like to know what happened to all the required on board cameras and audio.  You know, that shit that keeps sailboat racing interesting when it's a horizon job, or, say, when only one team shows up?

 

I mean I dig Andy a lot, Murray was a good guest and even Tugger wasn't embarrassing today, but to omit what are no doubt the best audio and video shots in any sailboat race...stuff they already did phenomenally in the ACWS and is easy fucking peasy technically...WTF???

 

Guess I shouldn't be surprised.



#64 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,527 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:32 AM

 

 

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.

Ummm...i jumped on a moth and got on the foils the first time out as well.  Hell, even you could probably do it in SF breeze.

 

Just think - all you need to do is win a few national or world moth championships and an Olympic gold and you'll be at his level.

Na, I'd never be at his level.  But even I know that 'learning to foil from watching a movie' isn't a particularly relevant skillset for much.  Besides, the real story is that Nath had never done a foiling gybe, and had only seen it on Youtube, and he nailed his first effort.  

 

I think Nath's biggest problem has nothing to do with his own talent, which is obviously prodigious. Nath's biggest problem is that he's part of an organization that isn't organized, has too many yes-men, and fosters a CYA system that makes it hard to admit one's own mistakes and learn from them.  It's easier to fire sailors who disagree than it is to make changes to the culture.  It's easier to stick with designers who tell you stories about rainbows and unicorns than it is to redesign.



#65 jdcolnago3

jdcolnago3

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:19 AM

re; Barnyb video post^^

Listen @2:17 to about 2:24. Sounds like Murrys abit lost for words.Friggin funny.Just answer the question Murry  



#66 pjh

pjh

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,849 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:22 AM


If you look at my (yes amateurish, but based on live ETNZ R1 data) chart, a lot of time and maneuvers happen upwind compared to down in even this Class.

 
Keep in mind that ETNZ have sailed the long course in their two RR1 races that has 2 3/4 downwind legs and 2 upwind legs.  The AC Match course is the short one, which has 1 3/4 downwind legs and 1 upwind leg.
Excellent point, thx. But (edit)
That JS and BA will be alternating boats, and the boats alternating wings too, may also suggest it is still an open question.
Are the Oracle wings different? How?

#67 Qman

Qman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 500 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:35 AM

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.

 

if only watching YT videos was all its take to become an expert in any skill.  I would be a friggin prodigy.  Not to say that NO isnt a super talented sailor. 



#68 the sorcerer

the sorcerer

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 60 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:15 AM

Yeah so what's the deal with no on board video? Otherwise the presentation and commentary was good. Good having Jones & Salthouse on.

 

 

 



#69 Apterix

Apterix

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:51 AM

I would have liked to have seen a liveline overlay of NZ in race 1 to see how they did against themselves. Looks like they improved and smoothed out a lot of areas.

Coverage was great. Good commentary, nice tight and also wide shots.

Would be good to have a dashboard-style HUD in the corner of the screen at all times with boat speed, wind speed and angle, and accelerator or brake applied.

Great idea, but it would be unfair to give away that much info at this stage.  Is the full racing data available to the public or other competitors?    

 

Team NZ looking comfortable in the 16-18 knot wind range, but less comfortable below that.  I suspect that explains some of the problems in race 1.  Oracle look like they will be tough to beat in lighter air (the norm for September).  

as anyone got reliable upwind speed for oracle in the 14-18 knot wind range? TNZ's boat speed seems to peak at around 20-22knots upwind.    

 

The commentators are morons.  I'd rather hear more from the likes of Jones and Salthouse.    



#70 Foyle

Foyle

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Location:London
  • Interests:fast boat design, kite sailing, AC design

Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:20 AM

Team NZ looking comfortable in the 16-18 knot wind range, but less comfortable below that.  I suspect that explains some of the problems in race 1.  Oracle look like they will be tough to beat in lighter air (the norm for September).  

as anyone got reliable upwind speed for oracle in the 14-18 knot wind range? TNZ's boat speed seems to peak at around 20-22knots upwind.   

WAsn't there a 2kt flood current today?  If so then add a couple of knots to their upwind speed



#71 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,527 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:53 PM

http://sailinganarch...-hand-clapping/



#72 NZL3481

NZL3481

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 692 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:23 PM

 

 

 

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.

Ummm...i jumped on a moth and got on the foils the first time out as well.  Hell, even you could probably do it in SF breeze.

 

Just think - all you need to do is win a few national or world moth championships and an Olympic gold and you'll be at his level.

Na, I'd never be at his level.  But even I know that 'learning to foil from watching a movie' isn't a particularly relevant skillset for much.  Besides, the real story is that Nath had never done a foiling gybe, and had only seen it on Youtube, and he nailed his first effort.  

 

I think Nath's biggest problem has nothing to do with his own talent, which is obviously prodigious. Nath's biggest problem is that he's part of an organization that isn't organized, has too many yes-men, and fosters a CYA system that makes it hard to admit one's own mistakes and learn from them.  It's easier to fire sailors who disagree than it is to make changes to the culture.  It's easier to stick with designers who tell you stories about rainbows and unicorns than it is to redesign.

For someone that is known for being a straight shooter and tells it as he sees it, NO is almost believable when sticking to the AR script. I hope the NO that many know and love to see comes back after the AR circus is over and tells it like only Nathan can.



#73 Alpha FB

Alpha FB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 974 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

If you look closely at the media mast during the replay, you can see that at speed, it vibrates considerably most of the time - probably making the images from the on board camera totally useless...



#74 saulnier

saulnier

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 22 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:21 PM

and nothing to see in France, what a load of shit  !!!



#75 Volodia

Volodia

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:France

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:50 PM

For those blocked by Youtube, try watching from iOs or Android mobile apps. They seem to be disrespectfull of where you're living.

(works in France).



#76 hoom

hoom

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,897 posts
  • Location:Orkland

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:50 PM

I would like to know what happened to all the required on board cameras and audio.  You know, that shit that keeps sailboat racing interesting when it's a horizon job, or, say, when only one team shows up?

This would be the 2* cameras & no audio feed for the LVC that TVNZ was complaining about a while back.

The gear is on the boats, just they can't be assed to actually use it.

 

On the other hand, with only 2* cameras it does mean we get some nice long shots & can work out which bit of the course they are actually on.

Frankly I'd rather see more of those spectacular long chopper shots than a mish-mash of shots like the ACWS was.

 

if only watching YT videos was all its take to become an expert in any skill.  I would be a friggin prodigy.

You may call me Sensei ^_^



#77 Cyrille Hydrogene

Cyrille Hydrogene

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 491 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:05 PM

For those blocked by Youtube, try watching from iOs or Android mobile apps. They seem to be disrespectfull of where you're living.

(works in France).

 

Not if you're connected by wifi instead of 3G, unfortunately. I personally use Proxtube for Firefox. https://addons.mozil...addon/proxtube/ It works fine.



#78 Foyle

Foyle

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Location:London
  • Interests:fast boat design, kite sailing, AC design

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:18 PM

attachment=195001:ETNZ RR1 Race2 9July2013.png]

Wind mostly 15-20kt, peaking near 30kt at end

Max speed 43.3 at end.

From the VMG can see they lose about 60-120m or 8-16 seconds per tack (area of triangle dip in VMG with each tack)  - takes 30-60s to attain top speed again, but as little as 20-30m (2 seconds) in a gybe.  They tacked 7-8 times on upwind legs which means about 500-1000m loss or 1-2 minutes in just 800s - or about 10-20% of their upwind vmg, so doing good tacks and optimising your vmg through them appears to be far more critical than gybes -  another tack in a leg equals = 1-2% loss of vmg for whole leg.

 

With such a high cost it seems pretty doubtful to me that they will be chasing wind shifts or hugging shorelines much, better to sail boundary to boundary.  They should obviously be focusing strongly on getting their tacking optimised.

Attached Files



#79 bigstan

bigstan

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Location:Fresno
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:27 PM

As any sailor can attest, we all can nail gybe after gybe in a one boat practice race...let's see how it changes with another 40 kt boat up their ass...



#80 Volodia

Volodia

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:France

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:35 PM

For those blocked by Youtube, try watching from iOs or Android mobile apps. They seem to be disrespectfull of where you're living.

(works in France).

 

Not if you're connected by wifi instead of 3G, unfortunately. I personally use Proxtube for Firefox. https://addons.mozil...addon/proxtube/ It works fine.

Working over Wifi for me...



#81 davethesailor

davethesailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 125 posts
  • Location:Lugano

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:35 PM

the sound of one hand clapping, ha ha, I didn't know scooter's into zen koans!



#82 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,755 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:50 PM

 

 

Ray Davis admits they cocked up a few times this morning (and in RR1 as well), which raises a logical safety-related question: if a team who have spent as much time on the water as ETNZ have can still screw up a maneuver or 3 in 45-46 minutes of actual racing, how safe are AR going to be out there with only a few days' worth of practice on their boat?

 

Hard to say, but if NO can learn how to foil a moth from watching a movie, and he jumped on the 45 pretty quickly I'd say he has as good a chance as anyone to take it down the curve quickly.

Sometimes you are right. This is one of those times.

 

It's not one man. It's a team of people all doing the right things at the right time.

 

It may be it all falls into place straight away.

 

But I'd not want to bet a lot of money on that.

 

NO likely has the role that will have to adjust the most moving from displacement/"skimming" to full foiling.  He and the trimmer, anyway.  The rest of the crew, the grinders, et al, were able to get good experience that should translate over pretty well to the new boat from the old boat.  If NO and the trimmers can capitalize on their time on the foiling 45 and their own talents, learning from what they can see with high-def video of ETNZ, OR, and LR, they may be able to get Blue around the course surprisingly well, surprisingly soon.



#83 Foyle

Foyle

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Location:London
  • Interests:fast boat design, kite sailing, AC design

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:55 PM

attachment=195001:ETNZ RR1 Race2 9July2013.png]

Wind mostly 15-20kt, peaking near 30kt at end

Max speed 43.3 at end.

From the VMG can see they lose about 60-120m or 8-16 seconds per tack (area of triangle dip in VMG with each tack)  - takes 30-60s to attain top speed again, but as little as 20-30m (2 seconds) in a gybe.  They tacked 7-8 times on upwind legs which means about 500-1000m loss or 1-2 minutes in just 800s - or about 10-20% of their upwind vmg, so doing good tacks and optimising your vmg through them appears to be far more critical than gybes -  another tack in a leg equals = 1-2% loss of vmg for whole leg.

 

With such a high cost it seems pretty doubtful to me that they will be chasing wind shifts or hugging shorelines much, better to sail boundary to boundary.  They should obviously be focusing strongly on getting their tacking optimised.

I wonder if they have stopped to really look at the trade-offs in upwind sailing speed optimisation - given narrowness of course and 30-60 seconds to speed up to target out of around 2 minutes to sail boundary to boundary, and also being in high apparent wind machines they might do better to sail higher and slower straight out of the tacks to reduce total number of tacks required rather than building boat speed sailing 10-15 degrees lower (and burning through course width) before pointing higher - which might be something of a carry-over from sailing lead mines and other slow boats.  Apparent wind in these boats it only drops by about 15% (eg 35kt down to 30kt in a 20kt wind) through a tack and they are up against a severe boat speed drag wall so they might do far better not wasting power and course width on acceleration and instead sail closer to the wind at all times when tacking.



#84 Rennmaus

Rennmaus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,821 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

Deano's take on it - nothing spectacular.

http://www.kiwiyacht...ers-blog/race-2

 

BTW, has anyone heard him challenging JS for a one-off for the Cup: One race here and now, the winner takes all?

Must have been at some public team presentation after the first or second race. How cool is that???  :D



#85 thumper

thumper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 280 posts
  • Location:Hawaii
  • Interests:Classboats, Sport Boats, Innovation, Cruising

Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:42 PM

What most people fail to realize was there actually was someone else in the race.  Watch it again at 47:00 there's a Seagull trying to keep up with the boat.  Better than Dolphins!



#86 rd55

rd55

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Location:Vancouver
  • Interests:Laser sailing, web development and cycling.

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:00 PM

I miss the on board audio as well…  Also on the topic of colour commentary…

 

Someone needs to tell Andy Green to be quite once and a while. He doesn't need to fill in every second with his talk most of it completely repetitive…

 

I remember back in 1995 AC the hosts didn't fill every second with dribble… They spoke when something was going to happen or was happening and then kept there mouth shut when nothing new was going on…

 

I wish we could return to those days… But apparently this is new norm in sports broadcasting and it is annoy as hell… IMHO.



#87 Redsled

Redsled

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 498 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:20 PM

Good writeup this morning. The lackadaisical IJ has been a big WTF to me too, and I'm also missing the onboard feeds.

But still awesome to watch even just one of these boats flying around the course alone, which I think is a win for the AC, and points the way forward.

I hope the next AC bases the class rule on a set of lessons learned from this one:

1. Hydrofoiling is the pinnacle of high performance sailing right now, and so should be for the AC too. Design rule should enable and incentivize it, not try to suppress it.
- Corollary #1: Safety safety safety.
- Corollary #2: Onboard video/audio feed even more effective for TV viewing, the sensation of speed is actually transmitted through the TV with these boats, uncommon for sailing, so don't drop the ball on this.

2. Boats need to be more affordable so more teams can enter.

Reconciling those will make an interesting challenge, but I'm sure they can figure out a way.

#88 umpire

umpire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,222 posts
  • Location:Edenbridge, UK

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:29 PM

I miss the on board audio as well…  Also on the topic of colour commentary…

 

Someone needs to tell Andy Green to be quite once and a while. He doesn't need to fill in every second with his talk most of it completely repetitive…

 

I remember back in 1995 AC the hosts didn't fill every second with dribble… They spoke when something was going to happen or was happening and then kept there mouth shut when nothing new was going on…

 

I wish we could return to those days… But apparently this is new norm in sports broadcasting and it is annoy as hell… IMHO.

Isn't that the secret of any good commentator?  At times the least said the better, shame most of them can't understand that!



#89 hoom

hoom

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,897 posts
  • Location:Orkland

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:49 PM

And definitely don't be fucking asking these top grade sailors to describe what a tack is :angry:

 

Actually I've been generally happy with the technical level of commentating so-far, a bit of the basics but plenty of nice juicy details.



#90 Apterix

Apterix

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:19 PM

attachment=195001:ETNZ RR1 Race2 9July2013.png]

Wind mostly 15-20kt, peaking near 30kt at end

Max speed 43.3 at end.

From the VMG can see they lose about 60-120m or 8-16 seconds per tack (area of triangle dip in VMG with each tack)  - takes 30-60s to attain top speed again, but as little as 20-30m (2 seconds) in a gybe.  They tacked 7-8 times on upwind legs which means about 500-1000m loss or 1-2 minutes in just 800s - or about 10-20% of their upwind vmg, so doing good tacks and optimising your vmg through them appears to be far more critical than gybes -  another tack in a leg equals = 1-2% loss of vmg for whole leg.

 

With such a high cost it seems pretty doubtful to me that they will be chasing wind shifts or hugging shorelines much, better to sail boundary to boundary.  They should obviously be focusing strongly on getting their tacking optimised.

I wonder if they have stopped to really look at the trade-offs in upwind sailing speed optimisation - given narrowness of course and 30-60 seconds to speed up to target out of around 2 minutes to sail boundary to boundary, and also being in high apparent wind machines they might do better to sail higher and slower straight out of the tacks to reduce total number of tacks required rather than building boat speed sailing 10-15 degrees lower (and burning through course width) before pointing higher - which might be something of a carry-over from sailing lead mines and other slow boats.  Apparent wind in these boats it only drops by about 15% (eg 35kt down to 30kt in a 20kt wind) through a tack and they are up against a severe boat speed drag wall so they might do far better not wasting power and course width on acceleration and instead sail closer to the wind at all times when tacking.

Thanx for posting the race metrics, where did you get this from? Oracle and LR boffens will be all over these data at the moment.    

 

You make valid points above.  Upwind angles, speed and tacking strategies will undoubtedly play a significant role in winning.  Tide and competitor position are also likely to discourage/encourage high slow sailing from boundary to boundary.  

 

I think it very unlikely that TNZ haven't thought carefully about  "trade-offs in upwind sailing speed optimisation".   This is bread and butter to these guys, but hopefully decisions made early in the design process don't constrain their ability to correct sub optimal  up wind performance at this stage (if indeed their upwind performance is sub optimal).   

 

I am very keen to get some data on Oracle's upwind speeds and angles - big ask I know :rolleyes: .  



#91 Rossta

Rossta

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Location:Bahamas

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:31 PM

Snore... Lets see some good native sloops or at least the kids in the Optis!



#92 PaulC

PaulC

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts
  • Location:Dublin
  • Interests:Quarter tonners and beating one person in particular....

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:37 PM

I would assume ETNZ wouldn't want their onboard video and audio streaming as it gives too much good info to OR for reverse engineering and tactical analysis. The LV seems to be also the first time the helicopter shots of the ETNZ fairing system and other bits and pieces have been displayed, which again shows some interesting technical details. Even looking at Foyle's PNG gleans some race data for OR, unfortunately!



#93 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,413 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:47 PM

attachment=195001:ETNZ RR1 Race2 9July2013.png]

Wind mostly 15-20kt, peaking near 30kt at end

Max speed 43.3 at end.

From the VMG can see they lose about 60-120m or 8-16 seconds per tack (area of triangle dip in VMG with each tack)  - takes 30-60s to attain top speed again, but as little as 20-30m (2 seconds) in a gybe.  They tacked 7-8 times on upwind legs which means about 500-1000m loss or 1-2 minutes in just 800s - or about 10-20% of their upwind vmg, so doing good tacks and optimising your vmg through them appears to be far more critical than gybes -  another tack in a leg equals = 1-2% loss of vmg for whole leg.

 

With such a high cost it seems pretty doubtful to me that they will be chasing wind shifts or hugging shorelines much, better to sail boundary to boundary.  They should obviously be focusing strongly on getting their tacking optimised.

I wonder if they have stopped to really look at the trade-offs in upwind sailing speed optimisation - given narrowness of course and 30-60 seconds to speed up to target out of around 2 minutes to sail boundary to boundary, and also being in high apparent wind machines they might do better to sail higher and slower straight out of the tacks to reduce total number of tacks required rather than building boat speed sailing 10-15 degrees lower (and burning through course width) before pointing higher - which might be something of a carry-over from sailing lead mines and other slow boats.  Apparent wind in these boats it only drops by about 15% (eg 35kt down to 30kt in a 20kt wind) through a tack and they are up against a severe boat speed drag wall so they might do far better not wasting power and course width on acceleration and instead sail closer to the wind at all times when tacking.

 

I like where you are going with this Foyle. One small point though, re the number of tacks vs the number of gybes and the % impact on the leg. What you describe is at least partly due to how well they are doing the gybes relative to the tacks rather than being inherent. Hope they can get the tacks going better. Send DB or RD your analysis?



#94 Chainlocker

Chainlocker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • Location:Virginia Beach, Virginia
  • Interests:Single handed racing, dinghy racing (Buccaneer 18), disabled sailing, King Krimson, electronics.

Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:47 PM

But never mind the announcing package: What we really don’t understand though is this:  WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO ONBOARD VIDEO AND AUDIO?  You know – that shit that keeps sailboat racing at least partially interesting when it turns into a horizon job, or, ya know – when there is just one competitor to watch?  We seem to remember an entire audio/video package worth a small fortune that each team’s required to carry during racing.  We certainly remember panning onboards and dramatic team audio from the entire ACWS – it was what made an innovative, quality production into something we couldn’t take our eyes from.  And we’d like it back, please.

 

​I believe the onboard audio gets turned on during the LV Semi Finals. More microphones and more cameras (onboard, on water and aerial) get added during each phase until they unveil the super duper multiple helicopters, on shore, on water, onboard "better than the ACWS" package (which will be awesome!).



#95 dun

dun

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:10 PM

I would assume ETNZ wouldn't want their onboard video and audio streaming as it gives too much good info to OR for reverse engineering and tactical analysis. The LV seems to be also the first time the helicopter shots of the ETNZ fairing system and other bits and pieces have been displayed, which again shows some interesting technical details. Even looking at Foyle's PNG gleans some race data for OR, unfortunately!

hope that chopper stays 200m away

 

http://www.sail-worl...-penalty/105141



#96 opusnz

opusnz

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 24 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:45 AM

WTF....I went to watch the video to see the boys play with their new toy and it is blocked in NZ......

 

Nice to see that the America's Cup is continuing it's tradition of being an absolute joke.  One day NZ will wake up and stop spending so much time and effort on such a crap event. 

 

There are so many better places to spend all that money.   The sooner the America's Cup dies, the better.



#97 jaysper

jaysper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,364 posts
  • Location:Wellington

Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:48 AM

WTF....I went to watch the video to see the boys play with their new toy and it is blocked in NZ......

 

Nice to see that the America's Cup is continuing it's tradition of being an absolute joke.  One day NZ will wake up and stop spending so much time and effort on such a crap event. 

 

There are so many better places to spend all that money.   The sooner the America's Cup dies, the better.

 

 

wtf? try tvnz for live and delayed coverage



#98 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 11 July 2013 - 06:50 AM

WTF....I went to watch the video to see the boys play with their new toy and it is blocked in NZ......

 

Nice to see that the America's Cup is continuing it's tradition of being an absolute joke.  One day NZ will wake up and stop spending so much time and effort on such a crap event. 

 

There are so many better places to spend all that money.   The sooner the America's Cup dies, the better.

http://tvnz.co.nz/am...0-video-5503906



#99 eric e

eric e

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,517 posts
  • Location:the far east

Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:19 AM

WTF....I went to watch the video to see the boys play with their new toy and it is blocked in NZ......

 

Nice to see that the America's Cup is continuing it's tradition of being an absolute joke.  One day NZ will wake up and stop spending so much time and effort on such a crap event. 

 

There are so many better places to spend all that money.   The sooner the America's Cup dies, the better.

 

TVone say

 

In an online first, this year, users can get all of the following content whether they are viewing on desktop, tablet or mobile:

- Live Streaming of all races from Louis Vuitton Round Robin through to the America's Cup final in September
- Full race catch-up
- Highlights of the must-see moments from each race
- News, previews, reviews and interviews - video and text - in the build-up and throughout the three months of racing
- Additional commentary and blog content from our sailing expert Martin Tasker



#100 Volodia

Volodia

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:France

Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:49 AM

One more trick about TV coverage. For replay, if it's blocked in your country, try using a YT downloader ( clipconverter.cc for example ).

You will be able to download the stream even if the video is normally blocked.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users