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Cruising and racing multis - buying what?

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#1 Wess

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:18 PM

So the wife and I have been around the block a few times. Done the cruising thing on monos and multis, the racing thing on dinghies and now mostly daysail and race an F27.

As the kids approach college age we are looking forward and most likely another larger cruising boat will eventually make its way into our life.

Lets get the whole mono and multi debate out of the way. Its going to be a multi. Will take the shallow draft, level sailing, and unsinkability as a trade off to the capsize potential.

Which multi? OK, we don't sit at the dock much. Not a "too be seen" boat its got to sail well. Good galley, sleep and seat six, hot water, shower. Not camping but not a Gunboat. Handled by a husband/wife team that know the ropes but are not spring chickens anymore. Initially its mostly daysailing and racing in the Chesapeake or coastal with occasional 2-3 week cruises. Eventually the east coast, to the canal, the west coast and then who knows...

On the list are:

Chris White Atlantic 42 - where our heart is and maybe best for long term plans. But maybe under-powered for Chesapeake and then there is this love hate thing with the forward cockpit.

Outremer 40 - about perfect. Bang for the buck. But they are all in France and I just don't know about doing an ex-US deal. Seems too risky.

Catana 38-40 - Solid contender but...

TRT - Solid contender but...

Mainecat 40 - somehow the heart just can't get there but the brain likes it (if found at decent price). Likely the best performing of the group for Chesapeake daysailing, cruising, and racing.

You may notice a trend. I LOVE sailing my F27 and don't want a dog. Or a bus or a condomaran. They all have boards. They all can be found between $200-400K reasonably well equipped. They are all cats but that is only because I can't find a tri to sleep 4 easy and 6 in a pinch. Not a cocktail boat but needs some reasonable level of comfort. In an ideal world I would keep the F27 for the Chesapeake stuff and leave the cat (like a Chris White AC 42) in the Islands in charter but not sure if that is a viable plan for a not new boat that has an owner layout and KIS systems. This could also swing the financials either way.

Too easy to get trapped into own box thinking so looking for comments from folks who have been there and done that and already worn out the T-shirt. Posers need not apply.

#2 Bob Perry

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:44 PM

Wess:

You have set the bar for perormance pretty high with your F27. I've sailed that boat and it sails extremely well. Not sure any of the boats you list are going to satisfy you in the performance department. From your list I'd put the Chris White boat at the top. I've never sailed one but they look like a good combo of comfort and speed to me.



#3 ssi

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:00 PM

At the same length, Outremer will not be faster than Atlantic, no matter what Gregor T claims, and TRT is likely to be the fastest of them all.  Used TRT are old, new Outremers are not cheaper than Atlantic, and used Atlantics can be homebuilds or well-builds, while used Outremers came from the same factory.  Mainecats are cool if you like sailing a Laser in the rain with an umbrella.  They all will eat your storage funds alive.

 

So, what's the answer?  New or slightly used Dragonfly 35.



#4 SemiSalt

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:01 PM

 But maybe under-powered for Chesapeake ...

 

Isn't this a problem in general unrelated to any particular design? Sailing conditions on the bay are different from those on the deep blue sea. What is a reasonable expectation?



#5 New Morning

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:08 PM

When you're cruising for more than a day or two, it's all about living outside as you'll spend 85% your time on the hook, not under sail.  And once you're in the tropics you're going to want to be outside, with shade, and air flow.

 

I appreciate not wanting to sail a pig, but once you're doing a passage of more than a day or two, performance is tempered by your willingness to make landfall at night.  If the fast boat gets you there by midnight, and the slower boat at 5am, it's pretty much irrelevant because you'll both be waiting for sunrise before entering the anchorage.

 

Having the fastest boat is nice, but the happiest guy in the anchorage is the one that had a safe/protected passage where his wife was comfortable being on watch alone in most conditions, a comfortable living space on the hook and about 300' of chain.



#6 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:10 PM

The MaineCat is or less TWO boats connected to each other. Your liking for that may vary. I don't see why France would be a difficult place to buy a boat. Sailing is big over there - brokers and surveyers must be as common as here.

 

You could always get a Condor 40 if you want to go fast B)  Your wife would not be happy though......



#7 Veeger

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:28 PM

Having owned both an F-28cc and a Mainecat 41 over a 10 year period, I totally share your value system for multihulls. I, too, would have a love/hate relationship with the Chris White 42 forward cockpit.  That being said,  I think the Atlantic 42 is the best catamaran choice.  Cruising capable cats will not have the performance you're accustomed to except that the Atlantic will be the closest.

 

The Mainecat is far better than the detractors might say but I do not consider it a performance cat.  Good.  Above average. Not going to satisfy your performance genes.

 

The Dragonfly 35 would be better performance-wise I think-- at least from the videos I've seen.  The Atlantic would be my next choice.  The choice should rest between the depth of your pocketbook and the preferences of the Admiral..... (mine chose the Mainecat from my shortlist)



#8 Jake B

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:40 PM

For 20k more than a used Chris White A42.there is a 50' Newick Traveler for sale on yachtworld.This is the same boat;

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZmROnvKLoDQ



#9 Wess

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:48 PM

 

Having owned both an F-28cc and a Mainecat 41 over a 10 year period, I totally share your value system for multihulls. I, too, would have a love/hate relationship with the Chris White 42 forward cockpit.  That being said,  I think the Atlantic 42 is the best catamaran choice.  Cruising capable cats will not have the performance you're accustomed to except that the Atlantic will be the closest.
 
The Mainecat is far better than the detractors might say but I do not consider it a performance cat.  Good.  Above average. Not going to satisfy your performance genes.
 
The Dragonfly 35 would be better performance-wise I think-- at least from the videos I've seen.  The Atlantic would be my next choice.  The choice should rest between the depth of your pocketbook and the preferences of the Admiral..... (mine chose the Mainecat from my shortlist)

Ah, the voice of experience. Thank God. Wondered if you still hung around these parts.

Have been on the Mainecat so I get what many here miss. The prototype boat which is lighter is currently for sale and got me interested in the type.

The Dragonfly is no more in the mix than a Farrier is. Great boats for daysailing and racing but no way am I cruising on one.

Funny that we both landed on the Chris White Atlantic 42. Its at the top of my list but am looking for other opinions.

* If you know that boat and have the Mainecat you had to have considered the Outremer, Catana, and TRT. How did you end up picking the Maincat over the others?

* Tell me how light you keep the Mainecat 40 and what level of performance you tend to see (% wind speed, up, down and reach)?

The Mainecat might also be the easiest to get into Island charter till the kids head off and that plan would let me keep the F27 too.

Wess

#10 Training Wheels

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:38 PM

Tried for 2 years to buy an Outremer 40/43. It was a nightmare dealing overseas, especially once they realized we were American. They think the boats are collectors items since Gerard Danson died. All the ones we found were either in really bad shape, or they wanted way too much money, more than we could afford. Ended up with a Chris White trimaran. Very, very happy with it! Much better boat than the Outremer 40. If we could afford an Atlantic 42, though, we would probably get one. Love the forward cockpit for the visibility.

#11 querencia

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:05 PM

For my next boat I am pretty certain that I will go multi as well.

 

I would consider this Aussie cat:

 

http://www.fusioncat...sailcatamarans/

 

I met one when I was cruising the Bahamas and it seems to be a good compromize between speed and comfort.

 

The one I met was Boomerang (see gallery on website) and it was imported in kit form and finished off by a dealer / yard in Florida if I recall correctly.

 

It also seems that relatively large degree of cusmization is available / possible.



#12 Training Wheels

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:31 PM

Would you really want to put an Atlantic 42 up for charter? Maybe get a 'charter' mainsail equal to a triple reefed main?

#13 rantifarian

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:11 AM

Have you looked at the Schionning range? Some quick boats there, and I think the designer pokes his head into multi anarchy every now and again

http://www.schionnin.../sailingdesigns



#14 Veeger

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:59 AM

Having owned both an F-28cc and a Mainecat 41 over a 10 year period, I totally share your value system for multihulls. I, too, would have a love/hate relationship with the Chris White 42 forward cockpit.  That being said,  I think the Atlantic 42 is the best catamaran choice.  Cruising capable cats will not have the performance you're accustomed to except that the Atlantic will be the closest.
 
The Mainecat is far better than the detractors might say but I do not consider it a performance cat.  Good.  Above average. Not going to satisfy your performance genes.
 
The Dragonfly 35 would be better performance-wise I think-- at least from the videos I've seen.  The Atlantic would be my next choice.  The choice should rest between the depth of your pocketbook and the preferences of the Admiral..... (mine chose the Mainecat from my shortlist)

Ah, the voice of experience. Thank God. Wondered if you still hung around these parts.

Have been on the Mainecat so I get what many here miss. The prototype boat which is lighter is currently for sale and got me interested in the type.

The Dragonfly is no more in the mix than a Farrier is. Great boats for daysailing and racing but no way am I cruising on one.

Funny that we both landed on the Chris White Atlantic 42. Its at the top of my list but am looking for other opinions.

* If you know that boat and have the Mainecat you had to have considered the Outremer, Catana, and TRT. How did you end up picking the Maincat over the others?

* Tell me how light you keep the Mainecat 40 and what level of performance you tend to see (% wind speed, up, down and reach)?

The Mainecat might also be the easiest to get into Island charter till the kids head off and that plan would let me keep the F27 too.

Wess

The TRT was a 'possible' but would never have gotten past the Admiral.  All living in the hulls, gotta get wet going across the boat in the rain.  The others were all what I call "Great White Wall" boats.  Sit in the cockpit, can't see anything forward unless you're the driver.  Then you've got to climb up into /onto a pedestal seat to see over the 'wall'.  Jibs weren't self tacking and you had to climb down, cross over to handle the sheets.  On the MC 41, I could easily singlehand the boat, either under sail or docking. Did it all the time.  Wanna have lunch, get a cuppa or visit with the guests? It's all right to hand on the MC, on the rest you've got to holler for help, relief or to let someone know you need a hand--they're all inside nice and warm and you?  you're perched in the crow's nest by yourself.

 

Anyway, the Seawinds 1000 and 1160 were options, but no daggerboards.  Okay.  You want performance numbers.   The screecher just starts feeling good when the wind is blowing but the sprit is too light to carry it much over 15-20 true.  Bugger to roll up in those wind speeds.  I didn't have a spin so can't tell you there.  She's a cruiser. Figure 55-60% of true wind speed updwind (better percentage actually in the low wind speeds)  You can make 8.5-9 knots upwind in 18-20---comfortably.   Better than a mono unless you call sailing on your ear, comfortable.   10-12 kt boat speed reaching in a breeze 20-25 true.  (This is main and jib only).

 

I thought I kept her light.  But we lived aboard.  Took a bunch of stuff off after moving ashore.  Figured I was now really light.  But when I sold it this spring, I took another 500+ lbs off of 'stuff'.  Man, I was stunned at the number of more dock carts of stuff I took off! 

 

If you've got to charter before you go, then the MC is a good option over the Atlantic.  Overall, I'd say the Atlantic is a far better performing boat.  The MC is better than the rest of the bunch but it's not a Farrier or a Hobie and you won't feel like you're 'sailing' that way.  You WILL be comfy though!



#15 jimma

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:17 AM

Not sure if anyone here has real experience sailing the Atlantic 42, but the forward cockpit seems like it would be exposed to weather and spray, and be unpleasant for winter sailing in my part of the world. My imagination?



#16 Bob Perry

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:59 AM

Yeah, so you are a weenie. What's wrong with spray if you are screaming along?

Jimmay:

I think in our PNW world there might be better boats. Not sure I want to sit out there with the 50 degs water in my face all day long. either.

Maybe if I had some really good foul weather gear and a bottle of Lagavulin.



#17 Paul Romain Tober

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:25 AM

Yeah, so you are a weenie. What's wrong with spray if you are screaming along?

Jimmay:

I think in our PNW world there might be better boats. Not sure I want to sit out there with the 50 degs water in my face all day long. either.

Maybe if I had some really good foul weather gear and a bottle of Lagavulin.

 

You could have kimbottles hold on to the bottle and give you a "wee dram" when it was neccesary in all that spray.

 

romain



#18 kimbottles

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:49 AM

You expect me to be there with him in all that spray??

#19 Jake B

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:27 AM

The Atlantic cats have a nice inside helm.Must have got the idea from BS .



#20 Zonker

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:06 AM

Farrier F-41 cat. Really quick. Sailed on one in Fiji.

Outremers are fast esp earlier ones but shockingly narrow hulls that don't flare any above waterline. Friends had a 38 that was home finished and kept spartan so it was quick.

Hate the forward cockpits on Atlantic cats. Fun for daysail but wind blast and spray isn't much fun

It's all about keeping the boat light when you are living aboard. I don't have both a 9/16" wrench and a 14mm wrench because the 9/16 is close enuf to 14mm. Yay I saved 100g. Then my wife brings home an ironwood carving in Vanuatu that is 400g...

Keep it light, have good light air sails and you'll be happy

#21 DrewR

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:25 AM

Not sure if anyone here has real experience sailing the Atlantic 42, but the forward cockpit seems like it would be exposed to weather and spray, and be unpleasant for winter sailing in my part of the world. My imagination?

 

I've done a Marion-Bermuda Race in an Atlantic 42 and 2 southern deliveries in the same boat, so there is a little experience here. The forward cockpit was surprisingly dry (to me), but does get wet in the serious stuff. It also offers excellent forward visibility and view of the sails, something other cats lack, no looking thru a small window to trim the main. However the inside  steering stations more than make up for the exposure of the forward cockpit.

 

As far as multi's go, I think it's a great boat. I'd buy one if I was every going to go the multi hull route, but I am not. As previously mentioned, the build quality of the A-42's vary from what I've been told, there were home built versions and multiple builders so each boat should be looked at carefully. The boat I sailed was sold in Annapolis I believe, so it may be something you may be able to seek out to look at. OP, PM me for details if you'd like.



#22 Wess

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for the comments; keep them coming.

 

lmsm - Yes, I tend to agree on the concerns re ex-US deals.  Have heard too many horror stories especially about deals from EU (which are more likely for me than a deal from Down Under even thought there are some cool boats there. 

 

My general take is if it can't be found from sale on or near the east coast of the US then its not in the mix (which is pushing the Outremer out of the mix).  Why swim upstearm when there are good options (deals) available local while swimming downstream.

 

Not sure if it was here or on the multihull thread that someone commented on the narrow hulls of the Outremer.  Yea, had to deal with that on a prior boat but we do keep them light so this is not a turn off for us - its a plus.

 

Veeger - Thank again for the candid insights. Its extremely helpful. 

 

Drew - Did you sail Duet or Siesta or Great White(?)?

 

re the forward cockpit.  This is a concern for me.  This is not going to be a Gunboat - we don't want to sit at the dock to be seen.  We want to sail.  In all weather.  And go to weather. In all weather.  My concern is that in sloppy weather given the forward cockpit, one is virtually forced to retreat to the pilot house.  Now this may be old school and perhaps I am trapped in my box thinking, but back in the day we had a rule on deliveries.  As nice as the pilot house can be, when the breeze is up and the conditions sloppy we would not stand watch there.  Just did not feel like we were in sync with the boat while sailing behind the glass looking at numbers.  The more powered up the boat and the worse the conditions the greater the concern.  Maybe I am over-reacting.  Perhaps this is not a concern in real life or the many benefits outweigh the rare negative.  Its why I am looking for feedback from those that have sailed this type.

 

Very few comments on Catana though there more than a few out there.  I am curious to hear more...

 

Cheers,

 

Wess



#23 Veeger

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

One thing I have learned is that one sails a cruising multi bt the numbers! The forces are much bigger even in benign conditions and if you're coming from tris or monohulls, sailing by 'feel' isn't really possible without a great deal of experience (which first comes by comparing 'numbers' to 'feel').

If you have to be cold, wet and scared to make good decisions--- well, by that time you'll have been too late anyway in making them. Lifting a hull (okay, thinking the weather hull is a touch 'light') comes far too late in the process. I found that the comfort from sailing 'inside' far out weighs the loss of some senses. You do lose some of that but a quick poke around outside every 15-30 minutes will help. Ultimately, your safety will be directly proportional to your discipline and your crew's discipline. You need discipline to look around outside, to stay awake, to reff when the numbers tell you to reef even if it doesn't feel bad.

I suppose the biplane, open cockpit pilots said the same thing when going from goggles to windshields and enclosed cockpits.... Multi hulls and cats are different and require not only your old sailing skills but some new ones too.

#24 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:18 PM

They did and they were correct. You DO lose some input closed up inside. When doing a very tricky night landing once I took my headphones off and opened the cockpit window. Anyway, my experience with cats is they have very little feel in the first place, so being inside might not make a difference.

One thing I have learned is that one sails a cruising multi bt the numbers! The forces are much bigger even in benign conditions and if you're coming from tris or monohulls, sailing by 'feel' isn't really possible without a great deal of experience (which first comes by comparing 'numbers' to 'feel').

If you have to be cold, wet and scared to make good decisions--- well, by that time you'll have been too late anyway in making them. Lifting a hull (okay, thinking the weather hull is a touch 'light') comes far too late in the process. I found that the comfort from sailing 'inside' far out weighs the loss of some senses. You do lose some of that but a quick poke around outside every 15-30 minutes will help. Ultimately, your safety will be directly proportional to your discipline and your crew's discipline. You need discipline to look around outside, to stay awake, to reff when the numbers tell you to reef even if it doesn't feel bad.

I suppose the biplane, open cockpit pilots said the same thing when going from goggles to windshields and enclosed cockpits.... Multi hulls and cats are different and require not only your old sailing skills but some new ones too.



#25 DrewR

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:43 PM

Thanks for the comments; keep them coming.

 

lmsm - Yes, I tend to agree on the concerns re ex-US deals.  Have heard too many horror stories especially about deals from EU (which are more likely for me than a deal from Down Under even thought there are some cool boats there. 

 

My general take is if it can't be found from sale on or near the east coast of the US then its not in the mix (which is pushing the Outremer out of the mix).  Why swim upstearm when there are good options (deals) available local while swimming downstream.

 

Not sure if it was here or on the multihull thread that someone commented on the narrow hulls of the Outremer.  Yea, had to deal with that on a prior boat but we do keep them light so this is not a turn off for us - its a plus.

 

Veeger - Thank again for the candid insights. Its extremely helpful. 

 

Drew - Did you sail Duet or Siesta or Great White(?)?

 

re the forward cockpit.  This is a concern for me.  This is not going to be a Gunboat - we don't want to sit at the dock to be seen.  We want to sail.  In all weather.  And go to weather. In all weather.  My concern is that in sloppy weather given the forward cockpit, one is virtually forced to retreat to the pilot house.  Now this may be old school and perhaps I am trapped in my box thinking, but back in the day we had a rule on deliveries.  As nice as the pilot house can be, when the breeze is up and the conditions sloppy we would not stand watch there.  Just did not feel like we were in sync with the boat while sailing behind the glass looking at numbers.  The more powered up the boat and the worse the conditions the greater the concern.  Maybe I am over-reacting.  Perhaps this is not a concern in real life or the many benefits outweigh the rare negative.  Its why I am looking for feedback from those that have sailed this type.

 

Very few comments on Catana though there more than a few out there.  I am curious to hear more...

 

Cheers,

 

Wess

 

Duet. Good guess. The former owner is a friend if you need to real info.

 

My experience on this boat and on other big multi's, is that driving them is like playing a video game anyway, so driving from behind the glass was no big deal as there's no 'feel' anyway. But I'm a hunk of lead beneath me kind if guy anyways. 

 

We did the entire race from the cockpit, it's really not that wet, except in the rain, of course. But then compared to my boat in Buzzards Bay, almost anything is not as wet of a ride. I think the pluses of the forward cockpit while sailing outweigh the minus's, all things considered. Visibility, sail trim, etc. It sure beats driving from behind a lovely galley and a sliding glass door like many other multi's. And on the deliveries, it was really great being inside in the nasty stuff.

 

If I were to succumb to the multi-hull disease, I would buy a well surveyed Atlantic 42, no question. 



#26 Wess

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:40 PM

Oh boy. So many comments of sail by the numbers and no feel on this and the other thread. Makes me worried.

I get it. We have cruised. Rather extensively back in the day. Making safe, easy, drama free, seakindly miles must be a #1 priority for a cruising boat. I get that. But at the same time I am hoping by aiming for higher performance boats to not lose the pure joy of sailing. Yea, we would take our cruising boats out for daysails but it was about "time on the water" rather than the pure joy of the sailing experience which was rather dull. Bit like driving a Greyhound bus. Maybe I want too much but I want to keep the joy of seeing the wave coming, heating up the F27, getting a bigger curl in the chute, feeling the boat accelerate, and then using that speed and apparent for the turn down at just the right moment, the sheet ease, and the surf. Repeat over and over again. You all seem to be saying that even with something like the AC42 this gets lost. That is so damn depressing.

Drew - Duet looked to have been be very nicey maintained and equipped. Hats off to your friend. I would love to chat w the prior owner about the type if you have contact info. PM me.

Do I detect a hint in the last line? If so, its consistent with comment received from a designer who had a different boat built there. Kinda surprised me.

PS - Edit to add, Drew, should you find yourself in Naps, look me up. One ride on the F27 and you will never ever be able to go back to a keel!

#27 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:00 PM

I can't imagine any big cat you could sleep on sailing like you describe. To start with, you are dealing with TWO rudders and a lot of mechanical and/or hydraulic stuff between you and the wheel(s). The only way you could even come CLOSE do doing what you want is a big tri. if you want to use a car analogy, my boat steers like a F1 car compared to a big cat, which is more like a big camper or some kind of industrial equipment. Thing is, the cat is going fast and sailing flat. Throw a laser on it for sailing feel after you anchor ;) Here is an email I sent to someone considering chartering  a cat:

 

We charted a Privilege 39 and LOVED it. The space is beyond amazing  - basically more space than two 40 foot boats rafted up to each other. We had 4 cabins that were actually cabins - as in not a passage to some other part of the boat. We got around 9 knots under power and no problem with 10-12 knots under sail. Sailing the boat was a bit odd. Going from my boat to this was like going from a Porsche to a school bus, but then looking down at the speedo and finding out the bus was faster!  The checkout included a sheet with wind speeds and desired reefing for those speeds. I was like ???? why not just reef when you need it? Then after we got out I saw why - there is no real sense of being over canvassed until the boat rounds up against full rudder. We learned to watch the rudder angle indicator and reef whenever we saw 20 degrees to hold a straight course. Quite different from my only other multi experience, which was a 40 foot racing trimaran that could exceed 20 knots and DID have a lot of feel on the helm.



#28 Veeger

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 02:56 PM

Wess, what KIS is saying is the reality. But I don't get the 20 degrees of helm thing-- probably because in 20 knots of wind the Mainecat steered herself to weather but that's a different issue. You won't have the small boat, Porsche sailing feel with a big cat unless maybe a Gunboat or something like it does. You will get comfort and reasonably good performance. All boats are a compromise. You want to have fun sailing for an afternoon, you'll have to camp out at night.

Like you, I'd like to have the best of both worlds but each world doesn't seem to overlap as much as I'd like.

#29 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 04:27 PM

Our cat had an autopilot with a rudder angle indicator. As the wind built the angle would increase to hold the desired course. When we saw 20 degrees rudder we would reef.

 

On another note, the boat would be very awkward to maneuver in close quarters absent twin engines. You do a lot of differential power turns to get into a slip.



#30 DrewR

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:55 PM

Oh boy. So many comments of sail by the numbers and no feel on this and the other thread. Makes me worried.

I get it. We have cruised. Rather extensively back in the day. Making safe, easy, drama free, seakindly miles must be a #1 priority for a cruising boat. I get that. But at the same time I am hoping by aiming for higher performance boats to not lose the pure joy of sailing. Yea, we would take our cruising boats out for daysails but it was about "time on the water" rather than the pure joy of the sailing experience which was rather dull. Bit like driving a Greyhound bus. Maybe I want too much but I want to keep the joy of seeing the wave coming, heating up the F27, getting a bigger curl in the chute, feeling the boat accelerate, and then using that speed and apparent for the turn down at just the right moment, the sheet ease, and the surf. Repeat over and over again. You all seem to be saying that even with something like the AC42 this gets lost. That is so damn depressing.

Drew - Duet looked to have been be very nicey maintained and equipped. Hats off to your friend. I would love to chat w the prior owner about the type if you have contact info. PM me.

Do I detect a hint in the last line? If so, its consistent with comment received from a designer who had a different boat built there. Kinda surprised me.

PS - Edit to add, Drew, should you find yourself in Naps, look me up. One ride on the F27 and you will never ever be able to go back to a keel!

 

Wow, thanks for the offer, but a few weeks too late, I was back in Nap a few weeks ago for my Uncle's 80-th, I would love to have gone out on the Chesapeake again.

 

As far as 'turning' me, good luck. My race crew consists of a Corsair 24 owner and his son and a Voyage 44 owner, so I am out numbered on Wed. nights with Alien Craft boat owners, but I am on their boats some weekends. I just don't 'get' multi's, I just prefer lead beneath me. I have over 1000 miles on Duet and many hours of play time on multi's, so it's not entirely without merit I don't think I'll ever be swayed.

 

Duet was very well maintained. I didn't even know he was selling it until after it was sold. Whoever got that boat has a really great boat.



#31 Wess

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 12:06 PM

Well if I don't convert you I will at least get you drunk on D&Ss while we fly around at 15 plus.

Laughed at the twin engine comments earlier up. Whatever happened to skill, spring lines, using prop torque and wind? Does this end in everyone "sailing" trawlers?

I refuse to give up. Still looking at CW ACs (40 and 46), Outremer, Mainecat and TRT. Peter is pushing the G4. Curious to see if the numbers work on that.

My new prayer: Lord, please let the terms performance cruiser have real meaning in the multihull class. Starting to worry I am going to need many D&Ss to complete this transaction.

#32 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:34 PM

NOTHING to do with spring lines and skill.

If you turn the helm hard over, you have a boat 40 feet long and 20 FEET WIDE trying to turn. You know how a car will turn the front wheels at different angles when doing a sharp turn? Boats don't do that. You know how a trimaran with the daggerboard down has a pivot point in the center of the center hull? Cats don't have that either. You just CANNOT turn sharply without using differential power. I once worked on a Gemini cat with one engine and the skipper ran into about 4 boats and one piling getting out of the marina .  

BTW - I used to work on these boats. Can't say the cabin is all that nice, but the boat is a pure rocket ship:

http://www.yachtworl...X/United-States



#33 Wess

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

 

NOTHING to do with spring lines and skill.
If you turn the helm hard over, you have a boat 40 feet long and 20 FEET WIDE trying to turn. You know how a car will turn the front wheels at different angles when doing a sharp turn? Boats don't do that. You know how a trimaran with the daggerboard down has a pivot point in the center of the center hull? Cats don't have that either. You just CANNOT turn sharply without using differential power. I once worked on a Gemini cat with one engine and the skipper ran into about 4 boats and one piling getting out of the marina .  
BTW - I used to work on these boats. Can't say the cabin is all that nice, but the boat is a pure rocket ship:
http://www.yachtworl...X/United-States

Be nice or I will ding you w the Snipe next time (yea, that was me). Sorry but going to disagree with you. When we had kids (2) and had to give up the big cruising boat we downsized and had one of those Geminis w one engine. Singlehanded my wife or I could, would and did put that boat into any slip, any time, any day and any wind, under power. Easy as pie. Now getting it over 10 knots was a trick but I digress.

#34 TheFlash

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:48 PM

How'd you like your Gemini?  From a performance perspective, well, let's not go there but for tooling around with the kids?  Looks not-so-bad.  There is a little Waller 880 for sale in San Diego that looks like a pocket version of one, with the benefit of being light and maybe able to sail itself out of a paper bag.



#35 Steam Flyer

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:04 PM

NOTHING to do with spring lines and skill.

If you turn the helm hard over, you have a boat 40 feet long and 20 FEET WIDE trying to turn. You know how a car will turn the front wheels at different angles when doing a sharp turn? Boats don't do that. You know how a trimaran with the daggerboard down has a pivot point in the center of the center hull? Cats don't have that either. 

... ...

 

A lot of cats -DO- have their steering linkage to turn the rudders at different angles. Even beach cats. It's not that difficult to do, and getting the linkage adjusted so that the boat isn't trying to force one or the other rudder sideways thru the water is a big part of tuning the boat.

 

FB- Doug



#36 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:17 PM

I never touched the helm of the Gemini. I was too busy running around fending off all the stuff the skipper was trying to run into. My wife really wants a cat. She is not afraid of heeling over, but does think it is annoying.

 

Funny storry:

New owner of Maine Cat: We had the worst time getting the boat in the slip.

Me: You didn't have the boards ALL the way up, did you?



#37 Wess

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:25 PM

 

How'd you like your Gemini?  From a performance perspective, well, let's not go there but for tooling around with the kids?  Looks not-so-bad.  There is a little Waller 880 for sale in San Diego that looks like a pocket version of one, with the benefit of being light and maybe able to sail itself out of a paper bag.

An obvious tangent but deserves an answer.

WE LOVED IT. IT WAS PERFECT FOR THE TIME AND WHAT IT IS/WAS.

We had to scale way back. It was as different as anything could be from what we went to (an F27) or came from. But at the time given the need for a real house, and expenses of kids, it was all that we could afford. We had to swallow hard. Really did not want to buy it. Really, really expected to hate it. We were lucky in that we were in a location with regular sea breeze of 15-20 and that we did this back in the day of Tony and Sue (pre Hunter involvement = better value). Our kids grew up on that boat. It went further than that boat should have gone. My walls are lined with pictures of our kids on that boat and it makes me smile every time I walk down the stairs. Get an old one. Pre 105MC for sure. Get an outboard version. Keep it light. Go spend a ton of time with your family on the water. You will never ever regret it. I sure did not.

That boat is the reason my kids sail. So yea, even though the profile and track record says I should be a Gemini hater, I LOVE those damn boats (that Tony and Sue built).

#38 TheFlash

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:27 PM

wow. Didn't expect that review - but then again, 1000+ boats, right?



#39 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:03 PM

What is wrong with 105MC boats?

Does Hunter even still build them?



#40 Grey Dawn

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 12:00 AM

What is wrong with 105MC boats?

Does Hunter even still build them?

I sail a Gemini on the Chesapeake. Hunter took over production 2 years ago and gave the 105mc a svelte interior but, for the first year, left the rest of the boat as it was. It had crank-up centerboards in each hull which you would have to go below to deploy. It had a single inboard-outboard which swiveled with the rudders and lifted out of the water using a quirky hydraulic system for less drag while under sail and no stuffing box to leak. It had a triangular main which was deployed from and winched to the mast. It had a backstay. I think Tony Smith evolved this design over decades for economical shallow (18 inches draft) water sailing (34 ft LOA, 14 ft beam fits in a standard slip) on the Bay. 

 

After Marlow bought Hunter last year, they changed the design to be more like other contemporary catamarans. It is now the Legacy 35 and has no centerboards, small keels (~ 3 ft draft), battened square top main with traveler on the hardtop bimini, swept back spreaders and no backstay, and an engine in each hull. It is more maneuverable for docking but it's still not fun in the tight quarters of a standard slip and fairway. A spring line for a sharp turn helps. All lines are now led back to the cockpit including two single-line reefing lines so no need to go to the mast or below for standard operations. Everything is now at the helm which quickly becomes a mess if you are not anal about stowing the lines in the bags.

 

I've sailed both and I think the 105mc sails faster and points higher but the Legacy is certainly more user-friendly and less prone to cause problems with the engine or centerboards. Neither are great in light winds but I've seen speed in the teens on a breezy day. 



#41 Training Wheels

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 02:17 AM

Used to have a Gemini 105mc. Great boat for what it is. If you love sailing, and the feel of sailing, get a tri. If you want the ammenities, get a cat. That simple.

#42 Y-Bar

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:25 AM

Wes

 

If you truly seek space and performance at a reasonable price this is the dual purpose multi for you.

http://www.asiacatam...-2/stealth-12-6

Note the lack of normal crusing crap, lightweight, performance orientated large rear cockpit, easy access to winches jammers ect, fold up doors and open internal rear deck space.  



#43 Wess

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:13 PM

Drew,

Got it. Thanks.

The comments are consistent w another designer and I never saw that coming but its been very consistently coming!

Cheers,

Wess

#44 Becalmed

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:22 PM

I've been on a few different Shuttleworth boats over the years and they sail really well. The 35 is a good blend of performance and comfort if you are thinking more along the lines of F boat but bigger.  Certainly worth a look, and there were quite a few professional yard built boats; they aren't all custom projects.



#45 DrewR

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:37 PM

Drew,

Got it. Thanks.

The comments are consistent w another designer and I never saw that coming but its been very consistently coming!

Cheers,

Wess

 

No prob. I didn't realize until Sat. all the issues. Good luck in your search. Funny, I owed him a call anyway and I was sitting in .001kts of breeze waiting for it to fill in (it never did) and out of boredom I called.



#46 kidkodine

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:24 AM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZmROnvKLoDQ

 

I cant think of words other than insane - how can you really relax at these speeds? the loads, the everything - look at the weather ama at around 2:00. 

 

If your into decent speed and a little mellow retro - check out Jim Brown's Searunners.  Super nice guy. John Marples makes some pretty sweets tris - The first boat i ever was on was a black Piver victress in Santa Barbara (1971)- My God, it seemed so outlaw...did I say that there was weed?



#47 EarthBM

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 04:42 AM

The dude seems pretty relaxed. Looks like this boat is for sale in NZ - there is a web link at the end of the vid.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZmROnvKLoDQ

 

I cant think of words other than insane - how can you really relax at these speeds? the loads, the everything - look at the weather ama at around 2:00. 



#48 islandplanet

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 04:48 AM

Have you looked at the Schionning range? Some quick boats there, and I think the designer pokes his head into multi anarchy every now and again

http://www.schionnin.../sailingdesigns

 

I'm not a multi-hull guy but I spent some time on a Schionning Wilderness when we were cruising Mexico. That boat went on to circumnavigate and I was extremely impressed with it. That was one catamaran that could make me a convert. We have a client with a Lidgard 43 that is pretty sweet as well. 



#49 Tucky

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 01:49 PM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZmROnvKLoDQ

 

I cant think of words other than insane - how can you really relax at these speeds? the loads, the everything - look at the weather ama at around 2:00. 

 

If your into decent speed and a little mellow retro - check out Jim Brown's Searunners.  Super nice guy. John Marples makes some pretty sweets tris - The first boat i ever was on was a black Piver victress in Santa Barbara (1971)- My God, it seemed so outlaw...did I say that there was weed?

Based on my short experience sailing big trimarans, and lots on my 31 footer, that boat is not pressed at all, and the skipper's relaxation is perfectly appropriate. Speed often reduces loads by reducing apparent wind. I think that is the leeward ama you are seeing and that looks comfortable to me given the sea state- the leeward ama bow is definitely the thing to watch.



#50 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:00 PM

I can only speak to one kind of trimaran, but you can sail a Condor 40 quite fast and not be "on the edge".







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