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Request For Class Compliant Vids of OR


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#1 SeaMike

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:58 AM

If you know of some, can you please post some links to vids of OR sailing either of their boats with fully compliant AC72 Class rudders?

 

I'm keen to see if it's any different to how they go on their recently banned oversized elevators.



#2 Qman

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:11 AM

i think there is one video which is the most viewed of ALLL AC72 videos on YT that will show the performance of OR with the compliant rudders ;-)  can you guess which one it is?



#3 jc172528

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:38 AM

May as well be a blind man looking for a black cat in a very dark room  :P 



#4 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:39 AM

If you know of some, can you please post some links to vids of OR sailing either of their boats with fully compliant AC72 Class rudders?
 
I'm keen to see if it's any different to how they go on their recently banned oversized elevators.

Why?

#5 jaysper

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:43 AM

Heres a shot of it.

Notice the rudders are not beyond max beam?

 

dall_porpoise_showing%20off.jpg



#6 SeaMike

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:52 AM


i think there is one video which is the most viewed of ALLL AC72 videos on YT that will show the performance of OR with the compliant rudders ;-)  can you guess which one it is?

This one?: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Y6dnOlE9sjk



#7 mattdarnell

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:52 AM

May as well be a blind man looking for a black cat in a very dark room  :P

 

If the guy is blind why does it matter if the room is dark?



#8 eric e

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:54 AM

to start it off 

 

here's a spotters guide from wuss's "we're cool with anything" video

 

Attached File  wingz2.jpg   396.56K   29 downloads

 

looking for pics or vids with OR17 - 1, OR17 - 1.5 or OR17- 2 with the middle orange assym stabs

 

the lower silver syms look to be the launch stabs with out of the water adjustable trim-tab

these are what we probably see in the launch pics of OR17 and in all shots up to and including the capsize

 

in the rebuild the rudder mounts seemed to have changed to allow whole rudder tilt adjustments to be made by motor.so no trim-tabs were needed from then on -TS video 

 

the big syms on the boat at top are possibly/probably what both? OR17 boats have been foiling with recently

 

not a witch-hunt, just trying to fill in the gaps while we wait for 2 boats racing :) 



#9 SeaMike

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:05 AM

If you know of some, can you please post some links to vids of OR sailing either of their boats with fully compliant AC72 Class rudders?
 
I'm keen to see if it's any different to how they go on their recently banned oversized elevators.

Why?

You must be that lovely Mr. Spinray that everyone is talking about around here.

 

Well if you must ask, I'm not ashamed to admit my feelings to you.

 

The truth is that I find the AC34 competition most exciting and I'd like to learn everything I can about the boats and how they perform.

 

May I enquire in turn as to why you are interested in my motivations?



#10 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:11 AM

The reason I ask why is because I'd hoped you could provide a compelling answer. Apparently you could not provide anything new.

Any video, from any date, will not give us proof of what OR intends to or will show up with on September 7. Your thread question is meaningless at best. ;)

Credit to ee for at least trying to build something despite that.

#11 Filthy Phill

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:23 AM

The reason I ask why is because I'd hoped you could provide a compelling answer. Apparently you could not provide anything new.

Any video, from any date, will not give us proof of what OR intends to or will show up with on September 7. Your thread question is meaningless at best. ;)

Credit to ee for at least trying to build something despite that.

 

I'm quite interested in the initial posters request, it might not tell us much about your beloved sept 7th but it might tell us something. To suggest that any video of OR17 isn't relevant to what we might see in September, is ludicrous.



#12 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:30 AM



The reason I ask why is because I'd hoped you could provide a compelling answer. Apparently you could not provide anything new.

Any video, from any date, will not give us proof of what OR intends to or will show up with on September 7. Your thread question is meaningless at best. ;)

Credit to ee for at least trying to build something despite that.

 
I'm quite interested in the initial posters request, it might not tell us much about your beloved sept 7th but it might tell us something. To suggest that any video of OR17 isn't relevant to what we might see in September, is ludicrous.
Since OR1's relaunch and OR2's launch we've seen lots, and lots and lots, of very good foiling action by both. Since well before May 22 even.

If the suggestion is being made that their boats can't and won't perform well after today's ruling, well I call bullshit. It's just wishful thinking, a troll line, hoping for a big catch.

I'm sure we will see it in increasingly big measure now that they have a two boat campaign running; with arguably better competition than the Challs can muster.

#13 SeaMike

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:31 AM

The reason I ask why is because I'd hoped you could provide a compelling answer. Apparently you could not provide anything new.

Any video, from any date, will not give us proof of what OR intends to or will show up with on September 7. Your thread question is meaningless at best. ;)

Credit to ee for at least trying to build something despite that.

I do apologise for not living up to your hopes.

 

With a bit of luck some day a new poster will join this forum who is fuelled by motives that will absolutely astound you. Alas, that man is not me.

 

I must say I hope you don't tire yourself out rushing from forum to forum, pouring water on everyone's queries and suppositions up until September the 7th.

 

 

to start it off 

 

here's a spotters guide from wuss's "we're cool with anything" video

 

attachicon.gifwingz2.jpg

 

looking for pics or vids with OR17 - 1, OR17 - 1.5 or OR17- 2 with the middle orange assym stabs

 

the lower silver syms look to be the launch stabs with out of the water adjustable trim-tab

these are what we probably see in the launch pics of OR17 and in all shots up to and including the capsize

 

in the rebuild the rudder mounts seemed to have changed to allow whole rudder tilt adjustments to be made by motor.so no trim-tabs were needed from then on -TS video 

 

the big syms on the boat at top are possibly/probably what both? OR17 boats have been foiling with recently

 

not a witch-hunt, just trying to fill in the gaps while we wait for 2 boats racing :) 

 

Eric, thanks for your post.

 

So the asymmetrical elevator in the image is totally legal?



#14 SeaMike

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:41 AM

 



The reason I ask why is because I'd hoped you could provide a compelling answer. Apparently you could not provide anything new.

Any video, from any date, will not give us proof of what OR intends to or will show up with on September 7. Your thread question is meaningless at best. ;)

Credit to ee for at least trying to build something despite that.

 
I'm quite interested in the initial posters request, it might not tell us much about your beloved sept 7th but it might tell us something. To suggest that any video of OR17 isn't relevant to what we might see in September, is ludicrous.
Since OR1's relaunch and OR2's launch we've seen lots, and lots and lots, of very good foiling action by both. Since well before May 22 even.

If the suggestion is being made that their boats can't and won't perform well after today's ruling, well I call bullshit. It's just wishful thinking, a troll line, hoping for a big catch.

I'm sure we will see it in increasingly big measure now that they have a two boat campaign running; with arguably better competition than the Challs can muster.

 

Ahhh, now I understand. I see where you chose your screen name from. You thought I was having a go at Oracle so you've gone into defensive posture, waving your little barb at me.

 

Don't worry, I'm not trolling. No one's ever happy to find a Stingray on their line.

 

I just want to get more insight into where OR are at at the moment to get an idea of where they may be come September 7th.



#15 Indio

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:42 AM

If you know of some, can you please post some links to vids of OR sailing either of their boats with fully compliant AC72 Class rudders?

 

I'm keen to see if it's any different to how they go on their recently banned oversized elevators.

This video shows some @ :26

http://www.youtube.c...e&v=84xmwDnfsoU

 

And then this

 

http://www.youtube.c...e&v=drgglIebuQY



#16 snaerk

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:42 AM

Seeing how Oracle pitchpolled with symmettric stablizers which are wider than class rules allow, I don't understand why such stablizers later came to be propozed as a safety reqiurement.

Especialy when Artemis capsize was not stabilizer realted. Seems strange, like doing the safty dance to the wrong tune.



#17 hoom

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:47 AM

I believe Oracle have never to date sailed with rudders that meet the class max beam rule.

I went through my archive of shots/videos, from what I can tell they were always symmetrical & beyond max beam of the hulls.

Only way they can have been legal is if the hulls aren't at max beam.

 

Not that there is anything inherently dodgy about that while working up.

 

Its also my belief that ETNZ/LR were originally sailing with non-legal rudders with adjustable Ts too. Legal in terms of external dimensions though.

My suspicion is actually that they have had the ability to adjust the T not just on the water but while sailing at speed.

eg DBs 'dump' button in front of the wheel while testing in Auckland I suspect was to kick the T into an anti-dive mode.

 

There are some nice pics of LR rudders at launch, it looks to me like there is a fairing around a hinge point near the front, with the rudder socketing over the top of the T & allowing angle adjustment through the back of the rudder.

Certainly I expect they have rudder bearing adjustment like Oracle at the least given the big visible gap around the top of the bearing.

 

This doesn't make ETNZ/LR hypocrites though.

 

I believe they were unconcerned with the Oracle Ts, other than a bit of a 'tee hee, how are they gonna fit a big enough assymetrical T with the rudder that far back' & 'man they are leaving it late to get basic dimensions legal'.

But then safety review comes out with suddenly non-negotiable 'thou shalt have symmetrical Ts' -> 'assymetrical Ts allowed but prove you ain't gonna break', shortening of the 1m rule to 0.85 and some Oracle guys start talking about adjusting the T during a race, that rings alarm bells & rightly so.



#18 eric e

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:34 AM

So the asymmetrical elevator in the image is totally legal?

 

not sure that's been confirmed

 

but with all the compromises that are involved with assym lifting foils

 

it's hard to see why you would bother making some that were either too big 

 

they look about the right size... 

 

the 1 qualification to the above is that as the rudder shaft in angled the assyms above were probably made for the shorter pre-murray rudders and may go slightly outside the box on the longer 2.1m? rudders IM suggested



#19 eric e

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:52 AM

There are some nice pics of LR rudders at launch, it looks to me like there is a fairing around a hinge point near the front, with the rudder socketing over the top of the T & allowing angle adjustment through the back of the rudder.

Certainly I expect they have rudder bearing adjustment like Oracle at the least given the big visible gap around the top of the bearing.

 

AR's most recent rudders also show elevators on the stabilisers, so possibly they don't have a rudder stock adjustment system

 

old skool crazy in jimmy's opinion as it takes so long to try different settings

 

from the NO video

 

Attached File  ARassym.jpg   493.46K   25 downloads

 

interesting what GD said about possibly using a volvo style system of adjusting them to the setting they want, sealing? them and taking a pic and then sending that to the measurement committee before racing



#20 hoom

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:03 AM

interesting what GD said about possibly using a volvo style system of adjusting them to the setting they want, sealing? them and taking a pic and then sending that to the measurement committee before racing

I seem to have missed that bit, is from where?



#21 onimod

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:12 AM

^ I haven't heard that voiced wither but it makes sense.

I reckon there is still a dump button, only now it's an emergency release connected to the rudder top bearing.



#22 eric e

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:12 AM

interesting what GD said about possibly using a volvo style system of adjusting them to the setting they want, sealing? them and taking a pic and then sending that to the measurement committee before racing

I seem to have missed that bit, is from where?

here it is verbal quote on sailworld

 

Dalton said that he was perfectly happy with the requirement of locking the angle of the elevators on the rudders five minutes before the start of each race and explained how it was done. 'We fix the angle and lock it in place, then we take a photograph of the lock and send this off a telephone to the Measurement Committee. It’s much the same as we used to have to do in the Round the World Races when we sealed the propeller before the start of the leg,' he explained. 

 

http://www.sail-worl...ury-Room/111850

 

way to go Richard, getting the extra that those in the know, want to know



#23 jaysper

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:21 AM

 

interesting what GD said about possibly using a volvo style system of adjusting them to the setting they want, sealing? them and taking a pic and then sending that to the measurement committee before racing

I seem to have missed that bit, is from where?

here it is verbal quote on sailworld

 

Dalton said that he was perfectly happy with the requirement of locking the angle of the elevators on the rudders five minutes before the start of each race and explained how it was done. 'We fix the angle and lock it in place, then we take a photograph of the lock and send this off a telephone to the Measurement Committee. It’s much the same as we used to have to do in the Round the World Races when we sealed the propeller before the start of the leg,' he explained. 

 

http://www.sail-worl...ury-Room/111850

 

way to go Richard, getting the extra that those in the know, want to know

 

 

Heres the link

 

http://www.sailracin...cup-protest-win



#24 wkd928

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:49 AM

So no vids of OR sailing with class compliant rudders? Aren't they leaving things a bit late?? Makes you wonder as to the value of there practicing currently if they've never sailed the boat in correct trim.

#25 snaerk

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 07:02 AM

Coutts clarely considers stablizers unimportent. The smaller the better, if he is to be believed.

 

Maybe he things their like winglets on IACC bulb

 

Rembember he famosly said somthning like "Whatever shape and size you think guys, Put em werhever you like " to the deisigners

 

"Its all the same to me"



#26 Indio

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:53 PM

So no vids of OR sailing with class compliant rudders? Aren't they leaving things a bit late?? Makes you wonder as to the value of there practicing currently if they've never sailed the boat in correct trim.

We're about to find out how Spithill's much publicised disdain for ETNZ spending so much time on the water translates to their prgramme, with only 6 weeks available to them to perfect everything: crew work, foiling, etc. Both Coutts and Spithill are on record stating they can only 2-boat test twice a week: what we've seen from both boats out in the bay looked like photo-op sail-arounds. Maybe they will increase the weekly frequency to 3 or 4, but they will have to start engaging in some serious race simulating practices soon, which increases the risks Coutts and Spithill expressed concerns over.

 

ETNZ's first downwind run against LR was as much a statement of intent as a challenge to OR: this is what time on the water does for us, Jiminy!

 

The 6 weeks are going to flybe quickly for OR... 



#27 Kaihoe

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:59 PM

^^^ Can't agree more - but as GD has always said they are one Bear away from PP. One team is doing their talking on the water and the other on FB.



#28 WetHog

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:04 PM

I got a nice collection of screen grabs of rudders used by OR since they launched OR1 in the OR thread.  Got bored Friday night and went threw all the OR videos on their youtube site. 

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#29 SeaMike

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:44 PM

I got a nice collection of screen grabs of rudders used by OR since they launched OR1 in the OR thread.  Got bored Friday night and went threw all the OR videos on their youtube site. 

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

Thanks for taking the time to do that mate. That's a huge library of pics you've provided us with.



#30 Nutta

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:03 AM

I got a nice collection of screen grabs of rudders used by OR since they launched OR1 in the OR thread.  Got bored Friday night and went threw all the OR videos on their youtube site. 

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

Thanks for taking the time to do that mate. That's a huge library of pics you've provided us with.

 

+1



#31 hoom

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:30 PM

only 6 weeks available to them to perfect everything: crew work, foiling, etc.

It's funny that they are using that excuse.

ETNZ were out there frequently practising racing manoeuvres in boat1.



#32 christom

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:42 PM

^^^ Can't agree more - but as GD has always said they are one Bear away from PP. One team is doing their talking on the water and the other on FB.


I think this is one of the reasons ETNZ is busily putting points on the board because if the worst does happen (PP) they will already be through to the final and have time to pick up the pieces.

#33 us772

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:19 PM

to start it off 

 

here's a spotters guide from wuss's "we're cool with anything" video

 

attachicon.gifwingz2.jpg

 

looking for pics or vids with OR17 - 1, OR17 - 1.5 or OR17- 2 with the middle orange assym stabs

 

the lower silver syms look to be the launch stabs with out of the water adjustable trim-tab

these are what we probably see in the launch pics of OR17 and in all shots up to and including the capsize

 

in the rebuild the rudder mounts seemed to have changed to allow whole rudder tilt adjustments to be made by motor.so no trim-tabs were needed from then on -TS video 

 

the big syms on the boat at top are possibly/probably what both? OR17 boats have been foiling with recently

 

not a witch-hunt, just trying to fill in the gaps while we wait for 2 boats racing :) 

Rudder end plate question. Are the teams already using asymmetrical end plates equal in area (short leg wider average chord long side shorter average chord)  on either side of the rudder centerline?  This may help keep a more even pressure on the rudder/rudder post.



#34 nav

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:10 PM

^ I'll have a go...

 

1/ Stabilisers rather than 'end plates', different role different design.

2/ No, the teams that have used asymmetric stabilisers are apparently not worried about the uneven load on the rudder - or to put it another way, they have designed their rudders to cope with that load along with all the others being applied and have proven it works perfectly. 



#35 Oneyoti

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:55 PM

Thanks for taking the time to do that mate. That's a huge library of pics you've provided us with.

 

You surely wouldn't be suggesting that Or's MASSIVE advantage actually all boils down to 'piss and wind', because that would make IM's actions mighty suspicious.  Wouldn't it?



#36 eric e

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:18 PM

keep in mind that the main lifting foils, the daggers

 

are HUGELY asymmetrical

 

ie on the inboard side they have a dinner table sized lifting foil that generates tons of lift

 

and on the other side they have nothing...

 

asymmetrical lift forces are not a problem if designed and built for correctly

 

and L foils probably have less drag than T foils

 

remember part of the reason we, AR + OR were all a bit blind-sided by etnz going for full-foiling 

 

was that the previous closest attempt to these boats

 

the full-foiling "off your rocker" C-class cat, little americas cup boat

 

turned out to be slower around the course than a conventional displacement C-cat

 

there are a lot of reasons for this but possibly 1 of them was the 4 large foils it flew on were too draggy

 

compared to the 2 small Ts and 1 L on an ac72

 

that failed foiling race experiment led most of us, team bosses, designers etc away from full-foiling

 

however in their very secret testing of semi-lefting foils on the sl33s in auckland, etnz discovered a very real speed and control advantage to full-foiling and managed to keep that secret while they developed it at small scale and managed to successfully model that into a much bigger boat without full-scale testing 

 

after the shock of etnz foiling a meter above the water

 

the next shock was the tv rib engine rpm change when the ac72 rose up on the foils and the motorman had to wick it up, to keep

 

for more than you need to know on things like try steve killing's pdf here

 

http://www.stevekill...ng_CSYS2009.pdf

 

for a quick look at the full-foiling foils that didn't work, go straight to page 10

 

421047_154758791311813_2141357020_n.jpg



#37 SeaMike

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 11:30 PM


 


Thanks for taking the time to do that mate. That's a huge library of pics you've provided us with.

 
You surely wouldn't be suggesting that Or's MASSIVE advantage actually all boils down to 'piss and wind', because that would make IM's actions mighty suspicious.  Wouldn't it?

From what I can see they haven't actually sailed an actual AC72 class compliant boat for months, if ever.

 

But I don't think it's fair to call IM's integrity into question.
 
Yes, he may have been advocating a rule change that would seem to advantage the defenders, but he may not have had any knowledge of OA's extensive testing on wider symmetrical stabilisers before he picked up an ran with the suggestion.
 
If you didn't know OA's test path and for what ever reason thought you could change the class rule, then the wider syms do look like a good option for making it easier to keep the boats' bums in the water.



#38 Oneyoti

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 11:36 PM

I don't think it's fair to call IM's integrity into question.

 

I asked a question and IM's actions have caused the question to be asked, not mine.  Do you really want to re-open this debate, I'm happy to, the choice is yours?



#39 SeaMike

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:18 AM

I don't think it's fair to call IM's integrity into question.

 

I asked a question and IM's actions have caused the question to be asked, not mine.  Do you really want to re-open this debate, I'm happy to, the choice is yours?

 

If I understand your original question correctly, and I may not as I see it in two parts, but I agree with the first part that from what I've seen Oracle seem to be performing very well but their boats aren't class legal. (Taking 'piss and wind' to mean a non class boat.)

 

The second part being that you ask if I think Murray's actions are suspicious for pushing for the wider syms? In this case it may look suspicious on the surface but I don't know definitively which syndicate put forward the rudder changes and what Murray's prior knowledge of if anyone was already using them was.

 

Three possible scenarios that I see are:

1. Murray was consciously acting in Oracle's favour.

2. Oracle suggested the rule changes and Murray unwittingly picked them up and ran with them only to find he was holding a bomb rather than a ball at the try line.

3. One of the other syndicates suggested the rudder changes (much to Oracle's surprise and delight) and Murray found himself in a shitfight once everyone realised that Oracle had been running wider syms for ages.

 

I've seen no hard evidence (not to say it doesn't exist) as to whether any one of the above scenarios (or any other scenario that I haven't thought of) is more correct than any of others, so I myself aren't automatically suspicious of Murray at this stage.



#40 eric e

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM

IM asked the teams what they thought would make their boats safer

 

his mate simmer went through the OR wish-list, momentarily confusing performance for safety

 

it was worth a try



#41 Desprit

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:34 AM

 


Thanks for taking the time to do that mate. That's a huge library of pics you've provided us with.

 
You surely wouldn't be suggesting that Or's MASSIVE advantage actually all boils down to 'piss and wind', because that would make IM's actions mighty suspicious.  Wouldn't it?

From what I can see they haven't actually sailed an actual AC72 class compliant boat for months, if ever.

 

But I don't think it's fair to call IM's integrity into question.
 
Yes, he may have been advocating a rule change that would seem to advantage the defenders, but he may not have had any knowledge of OA's extensive testing on wider symmetrical stabilisers before he picked up an ran with the suggestion.
 
If you didn't know OA's test path and for what ever reason thought you could change the class rule, then the wider syms do look like a good option for making it easier to keep the boats' bums in the water.

 

Everybody who knows IM and has commented on this matter states that he is totally straight up. So it is fair to assume, unless you have hard evidence to the contrary, that this is the case.

 

What is also known is that RC's deviousness is beyond compare and I do mean this in a nice way.  Anyone who, after Bill Koch proved that IACC boats needed to be long, heavy and narrow, could convince the AC world that NZL32 was slower than the short, light and wide NZL20 has to be a bullshitter of the first order.

 

I suspect that OR, under RC's direction, fed a great line to IM along the lines of "we prefer smaller stabilisers because they are faster but for the good of the event and in particular poor AR we will make a sacrifice and agree to to larger and wider symetrical ones as ultimately they are the safer solution". RC gave a good performance of this line in the tour he gave the journo's before the IJ decision came out.

 

The next most important event in this cup is the day OR tries to sail with rule compliant rudders.  Will they go back to their dolphin impersonations and dragging their ass during the gybes. Or will they be as fast as they are now? That is why this thread is very important. 



#42 christom

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:37 AM

 

IM asked the teams what they thought would make their boats safer
 
his mate simmer went through the OR wish-list, momentarily confusing performance for safety
 
it was worth a try

 

This was my best guess as well.

IM did what he thought was right and got schooled by OR.

#43 JJD

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:53 AM


I don't think it's fair to call IM's integrity into question.

 
I asked a question and IM's actions have caused the question to be asked, not mine.  Do you really want to re-open this debate, I'm happy to, the choice is yours?
 
If I understand your original question correctly, and I may not as I see it in two parts, but I agree with the first part that from what I've seen Oracle seem to be performing very well but their boats aren't class legal. (Taking 'piss and wind' to mean a non class boat.)
 
The second part being that you ask if I think Murray's actions are suspicious for pushing for the wider syms? In this case it may look suspicious on the surface but I don't know definitively which syndicate put forward the rudder changes and what Murray's prior knowledge of if anyone was already using them was.
 
Three possible scenarios that I see are:
1. Murray was consciously acting in Oracle's favour.
2. Oracle suggested the rule changes and Murray unwittingly picked them up and ran with them only to find he was holding a bomb rather than a ball at the try line.
3. One of the other syndicates suggested the rudder changes (much to Oracle's surprise and delight) and Murray found himself in a shitfight once everyone realised that Oracle had been running wider syms for ages.
 
I've seen no hard evidence (not to say it doesn't exist) as to whether any one of the above scenarios (or any other scenario that I haven't thought of) is more correct than any of others, so I myself aren't automatically suspicious of Murray at this stage.

It's been we'll covered (although still denied by stingray) that Oracle put forward the rudder changes, and not only that, said they think they are important and will fight for them. No wonder mediation failed, forcing ETNZ and LR to lodge aprotestto retain the status quotes class rules.
That would leave option 2 as the most likely.

#44 onimod

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 02:42 AM

An alternative:

4.  OR pushed for adjustable rudder elevators for the purpose of "safety".  IM looked at the boats and found a clear example of a safe boat (and a sister boat nearly as good) and made a determination that adjustability wasn't required but that safety seems to correlate with a minimum elevator surface area.  IM then asked how teams would like to go about achieving a surface area equal to that of the boat he considered safe.  Teams bargained over how this could be achieved and IM conceded toward teams that had not already achieved this minimum area and especially one team who was particularly time poor.

Unfortunately a/two team(s) bargained for concessions that were contrary to the class rule and instead of winning the lottery are probably worse off in terms of time and/or performance.

 

IM is where he is in life, as far as I can see, because he has shown the ability to get things done.

I wouldn't be so sure that the outcome we have isn't what he set out to achieve.



#45 KiwiJoker

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 02:47 AM

 

I don't think it's fair to call IM's integrity into question.

 

I asked a question and IM's actions have caused the question to be asked, not mine.  Do you really want to re-open this debate, I'm happy to, the choice is yours?

 

If I understand your original question correctly, and I may not as I see it in two parts, but I agree with the first part that from what I've seen Oracle seem to be performing very well but their boats aren't class legal. (Taking 'piss and wind' to mean a non class boat.)

 

The second part being that you ask if I think Murray's actions are suspicious for pushing for the wider syms? In this case it may look suspicious on the surface but I don't know definitively which syndicate put forward the rudder changes and what Murray's prior knowledge of if anyone was already using them was.

 

Three possible scenarios that I see are:

1. Murray was consciously acting in Oracle's favour.

2. Oracle suggested the rule changes and Murray unwittingly picked them up and ran with them only to find he was holding a bomb rather than a ball at the try line.

3. One of the other syndicates suggested the rudder changes (much to Oracle's surprise and delight) and Murray found himself in a shitfight once everyone realised that Oracle had been running wider syms for ages.

 

I've seen no hard evidence (not to say it doesn't exist) as to whether any one of the above scenarios (or any other scenario that I haven't thought of) is more correct than any of others, so I myself aren't automatically suspicious of Murray at this stage.

 

First of all, Iain Murray's motives.  It seems to be generally agreed by a fair-minded majority that IM is a straight shooter and has the best interests of the event at heart.  The IJ found that he went too far with the Safety Regulations.

 

But the question that appears to be unanswered is who generated the Safety Regulations?

 

IM said he drafted them. 

 

Mebbe he did.  

 

Mebbe they represented the conclusions of the independent committee, after submissions from all parties, but Murray saw that adopting them as his own was the fastest and most positive way to move forward.

 

Seems logical that the rudder proposal originated with Oracle or perhaps Artemis, or perhaps both. 

 

I have no firm opinion other than time will reveal all.



#46 Te Kooti

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 05:08 PM

 

 

I don't think it's fair to call IM's integrity into question.

 

I asked a question and IM's actions have caused the question to be asked, not mine.  Do you really want to re-open this debate, I'm happy to, the choice is yours?

 

If I understand your original question correctly, and I may not as I see it in two parts, but I agree with the first part that from what I've seen Oracle seem to be performing very well but their boats aren't class legal. (Taking 'piss and wind' to mean a non class boat.)

 

The second part being that you ask if I think Murray's actions are suspicious for pushing for the wider syms? In this case it may look suspicious on the surface but I don't know definitively which syndicate put forward the rudder changes and what Murray's prior knowledge of if anyone was already using them was.

 

Three possible scenarios that I see are:

1. Murray was consciously acting in Oracle's favour.

2. Oracle suggested the rule changes and Murray unwittingly picked them up and ran with them only to find he was holding a bomb rather than a ball at the try line.

3. One of the other syndicates suggested the rudder changes (much to Oracle's surprise and delight) and Murray found himself in a shitfight once everyone realised that Oracle had been running wider syms for ages.

 

I've seen no hard evidence (not to say it doesn't exist) as to whether any one of the above scenarios (or any other scenario that I haven't thought of) is more correct than any of others, so I myself aren't automatically suspicious of Murray at this stage.

 

First of all, Iain Murray's motives.  It seems to be generally agreed by a fair-minded majority that IM is a straight shooter and has the best interests of the event at heart.  The IJ found that he went too far with the Safety Regulations.

 

But the question that appears to be unanswered is who generated the Safety Regulations?

 

IM said he drafted them. 

 

Mebbe he did.  

 

Mebbe they represented the conclusions of the independent committee, after submissions from all parties, but Murray saw that adopting them as his own was the fastest and most positive way to move forward.

 

Seems logical that the rudder proposal originated with Oracle or perhaps Artemis, or perhaps both. 

 

I have no firm opinion other than time will reveal all.

 

I agree with the notion IM is a straight shooter.

 

However, we can be certain rudder proposals were NOT generated by LR or TNZ (because they had a good arrangement fitting the original rule).

 

That leaves only two suspects. Because of the urgent need to keep AR in the contest and the close relationship between PC and RC,  we can assume the proposed change came from OR and AR.

 

A knight of the realm (Sir Russell Coutts) should not resort to such behaviour. 

 

Coutts knows - better than most - it is unetical, illegal and unsporting to change rules 5 minutes before the game begins.

 

Moreover, the fact he did it for "safety" - and against the background of Bart Simpson's death - is even more appalling.






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