Jump to content


Melges Plows through Optimists while on Port

Megles nutter plows Optimist

  • Please log in to reply
1152 replies to this topic

#601 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:35 AM

The domain adessovela.com is currently returning a 505 error with the service unavailable, but is registered to Federico Michetti, the President of Melges Europe, who according to the Brontolo Squadron Facebook page appears to be on the Brontolo crew.

Dangerous to rely on a few seconds research to prove a point.  Michetti sails with Bombarda, and he told me that they gybed before the Optis in that race, losing five boats on that leg who went further to the left.



#602 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:36 AM

28,892 views for this topic so far on the biggest sailing website in the world and it is not going to go away. I would be amazed if Audi Marketing were not already aware and hopefully concerned. I mean it's not difficult posting on Facebook is it?

 

Pretty sure Audi North America marketing is aware of it. 

Audi NA has nothing to do with it, and doesn't spend any money on sailing.  It's Audi Italia, and one of the M32 owners is part of the dealership group that sponsors the series.  And no, they don't give a shit what we're saying on SA...



#603 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:38 AM

 

Dear @AudiSailing, after watching your M32 world series sailors endanger the lives of children, my next car will be a Volvo @volvosailing

 

LOL  -  but this is really not a problem of Audi's making. 

 

People to be having a go at are the organising authority and the PRO, the sailors, especially the pros, the class and ISAF.  They need to take responsibility for this farce and take action.

Agreed, and it was a tongue in cheek comment of course, but money makes this part of our sport tick, and if pressure is brought to bear on the list of people you mention above by sponsors, then they are more likely to act responsibly or take firm action when this sort of thing happens. This is why other sporting bodies have taken such a hard line on doping for example - otherwise the money dries up and your sport is confined to the same destiny as Snooker.

 

I think I prefer BMW in any case  :D

Ahh the new Snooker 32 class by Melges



#604 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:46 AM

MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

The reason for this letter is to clarify the events that occurred in the waters of Lake Garda, Italy, last Friday on July 12 in celebration of the event 4 of the circuit Audi Sailing Series for the class design. 1. Boat Brontolo ourselves Bribon Movistar, were at that time first and second fleet respectively, we found ourselves in the second stern of the second race, I think. In that same stretch and navigating assumed to port we have the buoy's offset of an Optimist regatta in the midst of our race course. 2. Not knowing if it was a workout or race and seeing a space clear between this group of boats sailing near that buoy decided to follow, amoyando and match our asymmetric to slow down and have more control. We went to 15 knots to 11 knots. There were 18 maximum 16 knots of real wind. 3. At no time any Optimist had to change course and there in no event less than a boat length (about 10meters) distance between us and any Optimist. 4. The other design boats coming to our stern or slightly our Leeward flap could modify its course with more advance and distance themselves a bit more than that group. 5 After the first group of Optimist, about two minutes later and in view of another more numerous group trasluchamos to go to our arrival. 6. Do not we gave importance to this fact, because we consider that we had not affected anyone. 7 On the following day to see again a large fleet of Optimist in the water near our camp we communicate to a vessel of our Committee moments before departure that were carefully with the placement of our field and coordinate with the Optimist race Committee to avoid overlap between the two fields and fleets. Our surprise was to see since yesterday Monday that this fact been reviewed negatively by a group of people on an American blog. Perpetrators of the blog and some readers of this have tried a few facts that did not see personally, they do so based on a video and the comments of who recorded it and a photo. In both cases, and especially in the photo due to the camera's zoom it may seem that the distances were lower. We know that class Melges Europe, the international Melges class and our race organizing Club have been in touch with the appropriate people to clarify this fact. We as team Bribon Movistar and I personally like pattern and co-owner and ultimate responsibility for it at that time, want to by this letter clarifying the facts and we apologize if anyone really believes that we have affected in any way any of those kids who was participating in the race. Remember all that any of our boat's crew sailed in Optimist until not many years ago and that some even has children that do currently. Who may think that at any moment we could act without rating the situation and putting in the minimum possible risk to any of these children? A greeting to all and again apologies to children if we could affect them in something and also those people who as a result of the encountered comments in this blog have been able to feel offended or uncomfortable. Marc Antonio. Bribon Movistar. Design (Translated by Bing)

187755_793000013_1630766059_q.jpg


#605 TigerinCT

TigerinCT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 445 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:49 AM

 

28,892 views for this topic so far on the biggest sailing website in the world and it is not going to go away. I would be amazed if Audi Marketing were not already aware and hopefully concerned. I mean it's not difficult posting on Facebook is it?

 

Pretty sure Audi North America marketing is aware of it. 

Audi NA has nothing to do with it, and doesn't spend any money on sailing.  It's Audi Italia, and one of the M32 owners is part of the dealership group that sponsors the series.  And no, they don't give a shit what we're saying on SA...

Sad but not unexpected that "they" don't care.  Funny thing is, the M32 fleet depends on clear water to host their super high level racing.  So, given they don't own the water... if every or any Opti sympathizer were to show up near the next local M32 regatta and go fishing on the starting line or at the windward mark (with lots of scope on the anchor - a lot of scope) - the poor M32 folks would be enraged that someone dared to interfere with "their" race course.  I could anchor a tow of 10 Opti's, just for fun, smack in the middle of a gate.  F- you goes both ways.



#606 billy backstay

billy backstay

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,730 posts
  • Location:Etchells fleet 24..Long River meets the Sound....
  • Interests:boats, cars, girls....

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:04 AM

 

28,892 views for this topic so far on the biggest sailing website in the world and it is not going to go away. I would be amazed if Audi Marketing were not already aware and hopefully concerned. I mean it's not difficult posting on Facebook is it?

 

Pretty sure Audi North America marketing is aware of it. 

Audi NA has nothing to do with it, and doesn't spend any money on sailing.  It's Audi Italia, and one of the M32 owners is part of the dealership group that sponsors the series.  And no, they don't give a shit what we're saying on SA...

 

 

WTF!?!?!?  They don't know who you (SA) are??????

 

 

Pay attention advertisers.... LOL!  :-)



#607 Lummux the Great

Lummux the Great

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 484 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:10 AM

 


MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

The reason for this letter is to clarify the events that occurred in the waters of Lake Garda, Italy, last Friday on July 12 in celebration of the event 4 of the circuit Audi Sailing Series for the class design. 1. Boat Brontolo ourselves Bribon Movistar, were at that time first and second fleet respectively, we found ourselves in the second stern of the second race, I think. In that same stretch and navigating assumed to port we have the buoy's offset of an Optimist regatta in the midst of our race course. 2. Not knowing if it was a workout or race and seeing a space clear between this group of boats sailing near that buoy decided to follow, amoyando and match our asymmetric to slow down and have more control. We went to 15 knots to 11 knots. There were 18 maximum 16 knots of real wind. 3. At no time any Optimist had to change course and there in no event less than a boat length (about 10meters) distance between us and any Optimist. 4. The other design boats coming to our stern or slightly our Leeward flap could modify its course with more advance and distance themselves a bit more than that group. 5 After the first group of Optimist, about two minutes later and in view of another more numerous group trasluchamos to go to our arrival. 6. Do not we gave importance to this fact, because we consider that we had not affected anyone. 7 On the following day to see again a large fleet of Optimist in the water near our camp we communicate to a vessel of our Committee moments before departure that were carefully with the placement of our field and coordinate with the Optimist race Committee to avoid overlap between the two fields and fleets. Our surprise was to see since yesterday Monday that this fact been reviewed negatively by a group of people on an American blog. Perpetrators of the blog and some readers of this have tried a few facts that did not see personally, they do so based on a video and the comments of who recorded it and a photo. In both cases, and especially in the photo due to the camera's zoom it may seem that the distances were lower. We know that class Melges Europe, the international Melges class and our race organizing Club have been in touch with the appropriate people to clarify this fact. We as team Bribon Movistar and I personally like pattern and co-owner and ultimate responsibility for it at that time, want to by this letter clarifying the facts and we apologize if anyone really believes that we have affected in any way any of those kids who was participating in the race. Remember all that any of our boat's crew sailed in Optimist until not many years ago and that some even has children that do currently. Who may think that at any moment we could act without rating the situation and putting in the minimum possible risk to any of these children? A greeting to all and again apologies to children if we could affect them in something and also those people who as a result of the encountered comments in this blog have been able to feel offended or uncomfortable. Marc Antonio. Bribon Movistar.
4 hours ago · Like · 1
187755_793000013_1630766059_q.jpg

 

scumbag.

#608 jurrasicsailor

jurrasicsailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 380 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:14 AM

If we were the protest committee, I feel pretty certain Movistar & Brontolo would be at least DSQ. 

 

1.  further back in this thread interview by father of his kid in the race (and in the video) CLEARLY indicated he had to affect his course and saw at least one other do so.  The kid's testimony would certainly be more credible.

2.  There is a great photograph of a starboard tack opti clearly putting his helm over in response to the M32!

3.  Movistar in their own testimony says they were not clear as to whether it was an opti race or not & CHOSE to go into the fleet.

4.  #3 above doesn't matter in any case because Starboard vs. Port applies at all times even between non-competitors.

 

These M32 guys just keep digging and digging.  Given how many photo & chase boats were out there following the M32's, I believe there is a lot more video & stills in the hands of the M32's.  If they were stating the facts, there would be superb exculpatory evidence being trotted out right now.  That none has speaks volumes.

 

BTW- anyone else been going thru the Audi website videos of that day?  it does set the context to understand just how little of the lake the opti's were using, and how absolutely simple it would have been to have avoided them.



#609 VwaP

VwaP

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,242 posts
  • Location:Sunny South Florida
  • Interests:Private investigator by day party gurl by night

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:15 AM


MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

The reason for this letter is to clarify the events that occurred in the waters of Lake Garda, Italy, last Friday on July 12 in celebration of the event 4 of the circuit Audi Sailing Series for the class design. 1. Boat Brontolo ourselves Bribon Movistar, were at that time first and second fleet respectively, we found ourselves in the second stern of the second race, I think. In that same stretch and navigating assumed to port we have the buoy's offset of an Optimist regatta in the midst of our race course. 2. Not knowing if it was a workout or race and seeing a space clear between this group of boats sailing near that buoy decided to follow, amoyando and match our asymmetric to slow down and have more control. We went to 15 knots to 11 knots. There were 18 maximum 16 knots of real wind. 3. At no time any Optimist had to change course and there in no event less than a boat length (about 10meters) distance between us and any Optimist. 4. The other design boats coming to our stern or slightly our Leeward flap could modify its course with more advance and distance themselves a bit more than that group. 5 After the first group of Optimist, about two minutes later and in view of another more numerous group trasluchamos to go to our arrival. 6. Do not we gave importance to this fact, because we consider that we had not affected anyone. 7 On the following day to see again a large fleet of Optimist in the water near our camp we communicate to a vessel of our Committee moments before departure that were carefully with the placement of our field and coordinate with the Optimist race Committee to avoid overlap between the two fields and fleets. Our surprise was to see since yesterday Monday that this fact been reviewed negatively by a group of people on an American blog. Perpetrators of the blog and some readers of this have tried a few facts that did not see personally, they do so based on a video and the comments of who recorded it and a photo. In both cases, and especially in the photo due to the camera's zoom it may seem that the distances were lower. We know that class Melges Europe, the international Melges class and our race organizing Club have been in touch with the appropriate people to clarify this fact. We as team Bribon Movistar and I personally like pattern and co-owner and ultimate responsibility for it at that time, want to by this letter clarifying the facts and we apologize if anyone really believes that we have affected in any way any of those kids who was participating in the race. Remember all that any of our boat's crew sailed in Optimist until not many years ago and that some even has children that do currently. Who may think that at any moment we could act without rating the situation and putting in the minimum possible risk to any of these children? A greeting to all and again apologies to children if we could affect them in something and also those people who as a result of the encountered comments in this blog have been able to feel offended or uncomfortable. Marc Antonio. Bribon Movistar. Design (Translated by Bing)
4 hours ago · Like · 1
187755_793000013_1630766059_q.jpg



Good on them for behaving in a responsible manner

#610 coyotepup

coyotepup

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 287 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:19 AM

MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

The reason for this letter is to clarify the events that occurred in the waters of Lake Garda, Italy, last Friday on July 12 in celebration of the event 4 of the circuit Audi Sailing Series for the class design. 1. Boat Brontolo ourselves Bribon Movistar, were at that time first and second fleet respectively, we found ourselves in the second stern of the second race, I think. In that same stretch and navigating assumed to port we have the buoy's offset of an Optimist regatta in the midst of our race course. 2. Not knowing if it was a workout or race and seeing a space clear between this group of boats sailing near that buoy decided to follow, amoyando and match our asymmetric to slow down and have more control. We went to 15 knots to 11 knots. There were 18 maximum 16 knots of real wind. 3. At no time any Optimist had to change course and there in no event less than a boat length (about 10meters) distance between us and any Optimist. 4. The other design boats coming to our stern or slightly our Leeward flap could modify its course with more advance and distance themselves a bit more than that group. 5 After the first group of Optimist, about two minutes later and in view of another more numerous group trasluchamos to go to our arrival. 6. Do not we gave importance to this fact, because we consider that we had not affected anyone. 7 On the following day to see again a large fleet of Optimist in the water near our camp we communicate to a vessel of our Committee moments before departure that were carefully with the placement of our field and coordinate with the Optimist race Committee to avoid overlap between the two fields and fleets. Our surprise was to see since yesterday Monday that this fact been reviewed negatively by a group of people on an American blog. Perpetrators of the blog and some readers of this have tried a few facts that did not see personally, they do so based on a video and the comments of who recorded it and a photo. In both cases, and especially in the photo due to the camera's zoom it may seem that the distances were lower. We know that class Melges Europe, the international Melges class and our race organizing Club have been in touch with the appropriate people to clarify this fact. We as team Bribon Movistar and I personally like pattern and co-owner and ultimate responsibility for it at that time, want to by this letter clarifying the facts and we apologize if anyone really believes that we have affected in any way any of those kids who was participating in the race. Remember all that any of our boat's crew sailed in Optimist until not many years ago and that some even has children that do currently. Who may think that at any moment we could act without rating the situation and putting in the minimum possible risk to any of these children? A greeting to all and again apologies to children if we could affect them in something and also those people who as a result of the encountered comments in this blog have been able to feel offended or uncomfortable. Marc Antonio. Bribon Movistar. Design (Translated by Bing)

187755_793000013_1630766059_q.jpg

 

This is poor.  Especially the claim that they never got within a boat length of an Opti.  (Maybe an Opti boat length.)  He says 10 meters though.  Let's look at some of these pictures again.

 

picture2.jpg

 

picture1.jpg

 

In the first picture I drew a line across a line of water as proof that the telephoto lens is not altering the perspective.  The second one is pretty straightforward too.  I don't know if Mr. Antonio honestly believes he never steered his boat within 10 meters of an Opti or if he just thinks we're stupid but it's a blatantly laughable claim.  An insult to the intelligence is what it is.

 

Plus there is no way he can know that no Opti ever had to change course.  One sailing mom already said her son had to.  Sure looks like IRL 1481 changed course like a mofo.  How a guy sailing at 11 knots can look at two dozen Optis and be absolutely sure none of them changed course - that's a hell of a strain on credulity.  Insult to intelligence #2.



#611 Lummux the Great

Lummux the Great

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 484 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:22 AM

 

David vs Goliat, STARBOARD!

http://vmoptimist201...tachment_id=433


A few comments:

http://gbrworlds2013...worlds-day-2-2/

http://vmoptimist201...day-2-saturday/

http://suiwm13.weebl...-july-2013.html

 

#612 8Y8

8Y8

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 375 posts
  • Location:Pittwater AUS

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:24 AM

I guess there is a lot more to becoming a true champion than being the first to cross a finish line.

 

Paul Elvstrom summed it up perfectly for me in his famous sailing quote; "You have not won, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors." I have no doubt that the majority of sailors in that M32 fleet lost a lot of respect for those two M32 skippers and their crews.

 

Ironically, every Opti sailor at that event would understand what it really means to be a champion. They're 250 of the world's best junior sailors from fifty different nations. Everyone of them has earned their place at the Optimist Worlds by qualifying at the top of their National Championships.Their parents can't buy their way into the Optimist World Championships, and they can't pay a bunch of so called "pros" to get their boat around the course for them either.

 

Opti sailors can only get to a World Championship through their own ability and a lot of hard work. Those M32 sailors and a few of the misguided souls who have posted on this thread would benefit enormously from spending a few hours on Lake Garda watching the raw sailing talent on display at an Opti Worlds.

 

And pretty much by virtue of some other limits, they will only ever get a couple of shots at a world champs (at best).

 

edit: Kinda good this incident occurred at a trial event you could imagine they will be left well alone at the worlds :)



#613 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:24 AM

None of that shit is ever going to happen, and boycotts are a bullshit waste of time that only makes the boycotter feel good.  And I frankly doubt much will happen with ISAF or anyone else.  Nor am I sure at all if something should happen.  The good thing about this incident is that it shines the light on something that happens just about every weekend in the summer between these two clubs - they fight over space on the lake.  They are both busy as hell with big one-design fleets anxious to hold championships there, they have been battling for some kind of supremacy over the North end of the lake for years and years, and their communication level is terrible.  But until now, only the people that race there a lot knew it.  I can guarantee you that everyone in Italy involved in this has seen the video, and they now know that the next time they fail to set courses that keep the fleets apart, they're going to be humiliated in public for it.    Whether it effects the Melges fleet or not I don't know.  Whether there were multiple fouls from the four or five M32s that went through the Opti fleet, or if in fact most of them got through decent-sized holes and just one or two fouled one or two optis, or whether a couple of optis got scared but all the crosses were safe, I don't know.  I'm not willing to condemn everyone based on zoomed shots and video, though there sure does seem to be a few smoking guns.  

 

Then again I also know shit changes in a hurry on those boats, especially in a 20 degree righty +5 knot puff, and that a 25 foot space is usually plenty of room to drive one through.  



#614 Lummux the Great

Lummux the Great

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 484 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:26 AM

Blatantly and willfully breaking the rules and lying about it later = scumbag

#615 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:27 AM

WTF!?!?!?  They don't know who you (SA) are??????

No, I just know them and they are pretty impervious to sailor public opinion over here. 



#616 ojfd

ojfd

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 601 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:29 AM


MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)
.......

2. Not knowing if it was a workout or race and seeing a space clear between this group of boats sailing near that buoy decided to follow....


"Workout" or race? Does it make any difference?

The guy still don't get it..

#617 jurrasicsailor

jurrasicsailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 380 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:30 AM

You know, my mom bought her first Audi in 1976.  Has never driven any other car since that time, trading them in every 4 or so years.  She has been with them thru good times & bad for almost 40 years now, starting as a teacher and retiring as a superintendent of a large city school system.  I'll have to get her reaction to this gem of a marketing video.  How bout a voice over:  "Audi:  No matter how reprehensible your driving, we'll get you thru!"



#618 Winston905

Winston905

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:30 AM

can someone do the math on this picture ... lens focal length  scaling...   i know it can be done.......    sorry Movistar   that is not  10 meters between  you   the port tack boat,  and IRL 1481 the starboard tack boat.   i think the kid should have holed you below the water line......  to prove the point.   

 

Be a man  Retire  from the  race....

 

seb.jpg



#619 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:32 AM

Here ya go.

 

 

Attached Files



#620 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:37 AM

 

On Jul 15, 2013, at 11:55 AM, sally burnett wrote:
Dear Andy,
I am writing to you on behalf of the International Optimist Class following an incident on Lake Garda when two Melges 32 boats sailed through a fleet of Optimists. Both the Melges and the Optimists were racing and the incident was filmed by the many coaches present.
 
http://www.sailmix.c...melges-crashes- through-optimist-worlds-fleet-on-lake-garda
I am appalled by the behaviour of the two Melges skippers, it was cavalier, arrogant and dangerous.
It was unfortunate that the two race committees involved did not act to prevent the race courses from intersecting but this does not excuse the course that the Melges chose to steer. It is indeed miraculous that no injuries were sustained but this could so easily have ended in tragedy.
Apart from their dangerous actions, the skippers and crew were rude and dismissive towards the young Optimist sailors. This is not the example that adult sailors should be setting.
At the very least the Optimist Class would like a formal apology from the Melges Class Association and the skippers and crew of the boats involved.
I copy in both Jerome Pels the CEO of the ISAF and Jeff Martin, the Chairman of the ISAF Classes Committee.
I await your earliest response
Kind regards

Sally
---
Sally Burnett

Secretary General

sail OPTIMIST

International Optimist Dinghy Association
Bringing youth sailing to the world
 


#621 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:40 AM

 

From: Andy Burdick 
 Subject: Re: Serious incident on Lake Garda Date: July 15, 2013 1:18:52 PM CDT
To: sally burnett
Cc: ISAF - Jerome Pels, Jeff Martin, Peter Barclay
Dear Sally,
Thank you for your email.
Seeing this video and hearing about the actions is inexcusable. To hear that the sailors were cavalier and arrogant over such dangerous actions is terrible. We cannot be more appalled.
    
We are having a meeting with the class association in order to discuss, further prevent and to find out more about these actions.
We are very sorry and for sure you will receive a formal apology!
Very sorry Sally. We cannot believe the poor judgement these sailors used!
Sincerely, Andy Burdick
Andy Burdick
Melges Performance Sailboats 


 
INTERNATIONAL MELGES 32 CLASS ASSOCIATION
16 July 2013
Dear International Optimist Dinghy Association (IODA),
Thank you for your note expressing deep concern over the incident on Lake Garda this past weekend. Rest assure that the International Melges 32 Class Association (IM32CA) was equally upset by the video footage of the two Melges 32s racing through the Opti fleet on Saturday afternoon.
Needless to say, this footage has prompted us to proactively investigate further the actions of many including, but not limited to the Yacht Clubs (Circolo Vela Torbole and Fraglia Vela Riva), both event PROs, the members of the International Jury as well as all Melges 32 teams present.
Our findings thus far have revealed unfortunate circumstances in which were truly beyond our control. For example, despite our numerous complaints that specifically addressed safety if the race courses overlapped was completely ignored on multiple occasions. Additional concerns were also voiced by many of our owners as well as sponsor representatives, and they too were disregarded as unimportant.
Looking to the incident, the two teams highlighted in the video chose to navigate, what we now know was a dangerous path to the leeward gate. This combined with what we perceive as poor decision making in regards to where races were ran was where we have found the problem to be.
We realize that a higher level of situational awareness and a more conservative approach should have been exercised by several of the Melges 32 teams, honoring and giving right of way considering the breezy conditions. Do know that many of the competing teams did just that.
Since the incident, please know that both teams featured in the video have already, very sincerely issued public apologies regarding their actions on Facebook and through other media sources. We believe this is a step in the right direction on their part. The IM32CA is also reviewing internally what other measures may be taken to further correct the situation and prevent it from ever happening again.
We will be publishing their apologies along with this letter online at melges32.com.
You also mentioned that there were Melges 32 owners or crew that possibly spoke in disrespect to some of the young Opti sailors. Please know through our process to get to the bottom of just what exactly happened, we have not heard anything regarding this at all. Considering the caliber and league of sailor commonly found on a Melges 32, such behavior is highly unacceptable.
As we move forward, we hope that we can work with you collectively in resolving this matter peacefully and respectfully. All of our owners are regular contributors to youth foundations and sailing programs, and we know how important it is to emphasize the value of youth sailing and support the future of our sport. This is something that we hold with the highest regard.
We agree that best next step for our classʼ is to file a joint report to ISAF in accordance with rule 69.3 to see if any Melges 32 team breached rule 69.1(a) and that under The Racing Rules of Sailing, ISAF has the ability and authority to review this matter properly.
Kind regards,
Hank Stuart, President
International Melges 32 Class Association (IM32CA) 
 


#622 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:45 AM

Here's the english version of the Brontolo apology again.

 

 

My name is Filippo Pacinotti and I am the owner of the Melges 32 Brontolo.
Brontolo is racing the Melges 32 European Circuit since 5 years now.
During the 4th leg of the 2013 Circuit in Torbole – Lake Garda – Italy for reasons that I will try to explain in details at the end of this statement my boat during racing sailed through the Optimist Fleet that was competing for their Pre Worlds organized by the Yacht Club of Riva del Garda (Fraglia Vela Riva).
It happened 2 times upwind and 2 times downwind in 2 different days.
Brontolo was not the only Melges 32 sailing there, it happened to multiple boats of the fleet. 
I thought a lot about how to start this kind of press release and the I decided to go straight forward:
I have to express my most sincere apologies to 4 groups of people:
• The Kids – especially those who have potentially been scared by our behavior.
• Their Families for the same reason above
• The Coaches that have undirect responsibility on the water for their athletes
• The Optimist International Class that, I imagine, was putted under heavy pressure for what happened.
Let me have even some words for my crew, including the afterguard, that has no responsibility either if some exists.
I could have easily gybed away being the helm in my hands.
Again, on my opinion, there are reasons why this has happened, the helmsman is not looking for excuses but some additional infos should been analized.
Hopefully what above is clear enough. 
Now why this has happened?
• North Lake Garda is a very particular place where to sail, crowded and superbusy on the water during summer time (hundreds of dinghies, kitesurf, windsurf etc). It is a place like many knows which obliges you to sail on the extreme border of the racing area (left or right it depends).
• The racing areas for the Optis and the Melges 32 were overlapping. Both racing committees were, on my opinion, not reacting to this fact in the way they could (moving one of the field away from the other even after many complaints).
• Communication between the Yacht Clubs and the racing committes was simply not working.
• Moroever, with the exception of the last day, the starting time for the 2 fleets was basically the same.
• Conflicts were basically guaranteed.
• As a results the “encounters” with the Opti Fleet were usual, I would not say safe but usual.
• While racing we thought was an option to go extreme left and to cross the Opti Fleet we maneuvered to find our hole, depowering the boat letting the kite fly for a while and then proceed until the finish line as well documented in the video posted.
• We thought was safe enough. We did not hit anybody, nobody was even close to be injured, we had no discussion with our racing committee that clearly saw us and many other right there.
• The Melges 32 Brontolo did not infringe any rule letting, on our opinion, enough water for everybody to sail.
To make what has become a long story short this has been a bad day for me, for sure this it is not going to happen again to my boat and I feel sorry for what happened.
At the same time let’s try all to stay objective and understand well that there were too many coincidences not created by the competitors.
Hope this helps. 
Filippo Pacinotti


#623 White Cracker

White Cracker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,303 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:46 AM

Does this mean that Rev. Petey's front page gig is done?

#624 jurrasicsailor

jurrasicsailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 380 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:46 AM

The so called "apologies" posted on the Melges website are the same two sorry items already posted here.  They just keep trying to sweep it under the rug.  Stupid. 



#625 Winston905

Winston905

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:46 AM

Here ya go.

Thank you  Mr Clean..

 

Thank you INTERNATIONAL MELGES 32 CLASS ASSOCIATION

 

and a Big thanks to  Sally Burnett
.



#626 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:47 AM

And Bribon's non-apology.

 

1. The boat Brontolo and ourselves, Bribon-Movistar, we were then first and second respectively and we were, I believe, sailing the second downwind leg of the second race. In the same leg while we were sailing on port we found the offset mark of an Optimist regatta in the middle of our race course.

2. We didn’t know if it was training or a race and we saw a clear space between their group of boats so we decided to keep going, therefore we eased our asymmetrical to lose power, slow down and have more control. We went from doing 15 knots to 11 knots of boat speed. There was around 16, maximum 18 knots of true wind speed.

3. Not a single Optimist had to alter their course at any point and there wasn’t at any moment a distance of less than a length (around 10 metres) between us and any Optimist.

4. The remaining Melges32 boats that were behind us to our stern or slightly to our leeward saw the situation and managed to change their course with more time ahead and stay away from that group.

5. Once we passed the first group of Optimists, two or three minutes later we saw another larger group of optimists so we gybed to avoid them and head to our arrival.

6. We did not give more importance to this fact, since we believed we hadn’t affected anyone.

7. The next day as soon as we saw again a large fleet of Optimist in the water near our race course we communicated this to one of our committee boats before the start so they could be more careful when setting up our race course and so they could coordinate with the Optimist race committee to avoid an overlap between the two race courses and fleets.

Our surprise was seeing that since yesterday, Monday, this has been commented negatively by a group of people in an American blog. The editors of the blog and some readers have judged some facts that they didn’t see personally. They do this based on a video, the comments of the person who recorded it and a photo. In both cases, and especially in the photo because of a zoom effect of the camera it may seem that the distances were smaller than they actually were.

We know that the Melges Europe class, the International Melges Class and the Club organizer of our race have already been in touch with the appropriate people to clarify this fact. We, as Bribon-Movistar team and me personally as skipper, co-owner and person in charge at the time, through this letter we would like to clarify the facts and apologize if someone really thinks that we could have somehow affected any of those kids who were sailing in that race.

You should also remember that some of our crew sailed Optimist until not that long ago and some even have children that sail Optimists nowadays. Who could ever think that we could act without evaluating the situation and putting in the minimum possible risk any of these children?

Kind regards to all and again I would like to apologize to the children if they felt affected at any point and to those who, because of the comments raised in that blog, may have been offended or felt upset.

Marc de Antonio.
Bribon-Movistar. Melges32



#627 Lummux the Great

Lummux the Great

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 484 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:49 AM

Really? The "public" apologies also say they did nothing wrong... so how is that an apology?

#628 White Cracker

White Cracker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,303 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:51 AM

Does this mean that Rev. Petey's front page gig is done?

#629 Flashbrah

Flashbrah

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 40 posts
  • Location:Australia

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:53 AM

 


This guy has total control. F'ing idiot. 
 
DSC_7625.jpg

 
LOL almost smacked the little tyke in the head with our boom haha the PRO practically got that little tyke killed. dangerous but what ya gonna do?
 
/argo dipshittery
 
Picture kind of drives home a point about the visibility question earlier re: A-chutes. Forget the A-chute, there's no chance of seeing underneath the main. All you can do is hope there's no Opti there when your main trimmer pops the sheet to back off the throttle. Might scratch your boom on his head.

The "Argo dipshittery" is the craft of Clean's buddy Rev Petey who is noticeably absent in this thread. Given his commentary it would be interesting to have him weigh in.

 

That kid must be stoked, best wave he's got onto all day!



#630 Pete M

Pete M

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,869 posts
  • Location:So Cal

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:54 AM

someday, somehow, there will be an owner with talent and $$$

 

but not here



#631 Colonel Angus

Colonel Angus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:56 AM



MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

The reason for this letter is to clarify the events that occurred in the waters of Lake Garda, Italy, last Friday on July 12 in celebration of the event 4 of the circuit Audi Sailing Series for the class design. 1. Boat Brontolo ourselves Bribon Movistar, were at that time first and second fleet respectively, we found ourselves in the second stern of the second race, I think. In that same stretch and navigating assumed to port we have the buoy's offset of an Optimist regatta in the midst of our race course. 2. Not knowing if it was a workout or race and seeing a space clear between this group of boats sailing near that buoy decided to follow, amoyando and match our asymmetric to slow down and have more control. We went to 15 knots to 11 knots. There were 18 maximum 16 knots of real wind. 3. At no time any Optimist had to change course and there in no event less than a boat length (about 10meters) distance between us and any Optimist. 4. The other design boats coming to our stern or slightly our Leeward flap could modify its course with more advance and distance themselves a bit more than that group. 5 After the first group of Optimist, about two minutes later and in view of another more numerous group trasluchamos to go to our arrival. 6. Do not we gave importance to this fact, because we consider that we had not affected anyone. 7 On the following day to see again a large fleet of Optimist in the water near our camp we communicate to a vessel of our Committee moments before departure that were carefully with the placement of our field and coordinate with the Optimist race Committee to avoid overlap between the two fields and fleets. Our surprise was to see since yesterday Monday that this fact been reviewed negatively by a group of people on an American blog. Perpetrators of the blog and some readers of this have tried a few facts that did not see personally, they do so based on a video and the comments of who recorded it and a photo. In both cases, and especially in the photo due to the camera's zoom it may seem that the distances were lower. We know that class Melges Europe, the international Melges class and our race organizing Club have been in touch with the appropriate people to clarify this fact. We as team Bribon Movistar and I personally like pattern and co-owner and ultimate responsibility for it at that time, want to by this letter clarifying the facts and we apologize if anyone really believes that we have affected in any way any of those kids who was participating in the race. Remember all that any of our boat's crew sailed in Optimist until not many years ago and that some even has children that do currently. Who may think that at any moment we could act without rating the situation and putting in the minimum possible risk to any of these children? A greeting to all and again apologies to children if we could affect them in something and also those people who as a result of the encountered comments in this blog have been able to feel offended or uncomfortable. Marc Antonio. Bribon Movistar. Design (Translated by Bing)
4 hours ago · Like · 1
187755_793000013_1630766059_q.jpg

 
This is poor.  Especially the claim that they never got within a boat length of an Opti.  (Maybe an Opti boat length.)  He says 10 meters though.  Let's look at some of these pictures again.
 
picture2.jpg
 
picture1.jpg
 
In the first picture I drew a line across a line of water as proof that the telephoto lens is not altering the perspective.  The second one is pretty straightforward too.  I don't know if Mr. Antonio honestly believes he never steered his boat within 10 meters of an Opti or if he just thinks we're stupid but it's a blatantly laughable claim.  An insult to the intelligence is what it is.
 
Plus there is no way he can know that no Opti ever had to change course.  One sailing mom already said her son had to.  Sure looks like IRL 1481 changed course like a mofo.  How a guy sailing at 11 knots can look at two dozen Optis and be absolutely sure none of them changed course - that's a hell of a strain on credulity.  Insult to intelligence #2.


It's almost as if he is going out of his way to prove he can do whatever he wants, and this is what the M32 class stands for. Congratulations!

#632 Blue Devil

Blue Devil

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 47 posts
  • Location:21403

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:59 AM

I know one of the Opti racers affected by this pretty well - great kid, amazingly talented sailor.  (Obviously, after all, he qualified for Worlds!)  This kid was on starboard, had to alter course significantly, and the difference between boats was alot less than 10 meters as stated above.  Terrifying situation for him.

 

Unfortunately, I doubt that ISAF or Melges 32 Association will do anything.  I hope I'm surprised.  

 

Thank God that nobody was hurt, or worse.  Very lucky.  

 

Message to ISAF:  Please flick these Rodney's.



#633 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:04 AM

http://sailinganarch...07/16/optigate/



#634 jurrasicsailor

jurrasicsailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 380 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:07 AM

On the Melges 32 website you gotta love the juxtaposition of the official statement on "the lake garda incident" and the press release on the victory of Bribon-Movistar immediately following!  It really captures the whole spirit of things doesn't it?



#635 Colonel Angus

Colonel Angus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:13 AM

I know one of the Opti racers affected by this pretty well - great kid, amazingly talented sailor.  (Obviously, after all, he qualified for Worlds!)  This kid was on starboard, had to alter course significantly, and the difference between boats was alot less than 10 meters as stated above.  Terrifying situation for him.
 
Unfortunately, I doubt that ISAF or Melges 32 Association will do anything.  I hope I'm surprised.  
 
Thank God that nobody was hurt, or worse.  Very lucky.  
 
Message to ISAF:  Please flick these Rodney's.



You won't be surprised.
The best chance for this situation to right itself started with the M32 owners, and, well, it's obvious what kind of sailors they are. If the M32 Class lets this slide, which based on their response - they will, then basically nothing will happen... except for every sailor in the world (other then VcraP) will know the M32 class is full of douchebags. This sucks. I grew up racing in the same neck of the woods as Harry Melges, and got to race against him many times over the years... but this kind of shit is not acceptable, and sweeping it under the rug will make the actions of a couple of boats make an entire class look reprehensible.

#636 Winston905

Winston905

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:16 AM

Bribon-Movistar was clearly fouling opti's..    the north sail patch  on the opti and the letters on the side of the boat... a good scale reference.

 

seb.jpg



#637 j24vt

j24vt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,855 posts
  • Location:Vermont
  • Interests:J24s

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:18 AM

Methinks some people are going to get hit with the ban stick if they don't voluntarily retire from that race...



#638 Blue Devil

Blue Devil

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 47 posts
  • Location:21403

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:22 AM

I know one of the Opti racers affected by this pretty well - great kid, amazingly talented sailor.  (Obviously, after all, he qualified for Worlds!)  This kid was on starboard, had to alter course significantly, and the difference between boats was alot less than 10 meters as stated above.  Terrifying situation for him.
 
Unfortunately, I doubt that ISAF or Melges 32 Association will do anything.  I hope I'm surprised.  
 
Thank God that nobody was hurt, or worse.  Very lucky.  
 
Message to ISAF:  Please flick these Rodney's.



You won't be surprised.
The best chance for this situation to right itself started with the M32 owners, and, well, it's obvious what kind of sailors they are. If the M32 Class lets this slide, which based on their response - they will, then basically nothing will happen... except for every sailor in the world (other then VcraP) will know the M32 class is full of douchebags. This sucks. I grew up racing in the same neck of the woods as Harry Melges, and got to race against him many times over the years... but this kind of shit is not acceptable, and sweeping it under the rug will make the actions of a couple of boats make an entire class look reprehensible.

Colonel I fear your right.

 

Hank Stuart's letter says "Considering the caliber and league of sailor commonly found on a Melges 32..."  

 

Well, I encourage Hank to check out the Facebook page for Brontolo - on their page, they claim they are the "coolest" sailing team (Ha - perhaps most "idiotic!") - and they also state that they are always "one step ahead of the devil".  (Not kidding - can't make this up...)  Are folks of this "caliber" the kind that Mr. Stuart commonly finds in his class?  

 

Flick them.



#639 Winston905

Winston905

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:31 AM

here's how luna rossa proved with pictures  distance from scaling..     its above me  a bit.....    but seems easy enough to scale the distance...  the end of the  document is the math...    how close were they really... hmmmmmmmmm

 

 

http://www.zerogradi...LR-vs-OTUSA.pdf



#640 Lummux the Great

Lummux the Great

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 484 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:32 AM



words in private.... interesting.. The kids at the Opti worlds were given an important and valuable lesson concerning how the world really works. Sailors that follow the rules are chumps - just like real life...

This entire sport is based on pushing the envelop of the rules and self policing makes it ripe for cheating from club optis to Americas Cup. They should know they are about to join a legion of Dishonest Assholes. We owe it to them for the good of the sport to tell them this as early as they can comprehend it.

Perhaps that is the most important rule of all for the "little tykes" to learn from the sailors/douchbags they are supposed to look up to.. the rule of "fuck'em"

#641 RobG

RobG

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Location:Brisbane, Australia

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:35 AM

On port! On freakin' PORT ffs!!

 

Now if they'd been on starboard…



#642 Lummux the Great

Lummux the Great

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 484 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:36 AM

 

Methinks some people are going to get hit with the ban stick if they don't voluntarily retire from that race...

 

what should happen and what will actually happen are two different things.

#643 sjb

sjb

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts
  • Location:Lil Rhody

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:42 AM

Totally the fault of the PRO... if the PRO was driving the ITA boat. 
 
He/she wasn't driving the ITA boat? 
 
Hmm.


Well put. Sure the ROs set shitty courses, but how does this justify nearly skewering a CHILD with your sprit?

If your at the helm it's your responsibility to handle your vessel properly. These guys are acting like they were stuck on train tracks and couldn't change course. This is total BS. A bit of extra pressure can't justify driving through that fleet...to say nothing of the fact that these douchebag "pros" were on port.

Don't care how fancy your boat is, that is the definition of amateur.

#644 Plumbean

Plumbean

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 69 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:00 AM

 

 

 

 
My socks aren't the problem... M32s barreling through on Port fouling boats and lying about it later is.


Who specifically are you calling a liar.


Oh and if it wasn't this you would find some other outrage of the day for your nonsense.

 

Pot calling the kettle black.

Why are people still responding to the offfensive VwaP Troll?

You can block by clicking on your name top righ and 'manage ignore prefs'

I have the Troll blocked but still end up reading its detritus everytime someone responds!

Please stop...

This



#645 Colonel Angus

Colonel Angus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:35 AM

The wagons have circled...the apologies that have been issued are all the redress the optis will get... and the M32 Class will be known as a class of worthless assholes from now on. So, basically, nothing has changed.

#646 TBone

TBone

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 373 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:49 AM

What statement has been issued by Argo?

#647 sprayblond

sprayblond

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 24 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:10 AM

Racecourse was what it had to be. M32s use the whole lake and wanted to get the wind increase at the western cliff - as everybody else. No other way this course coud have been laid.

Totally the fault of the PRO... if the PRO was driving the ITA boat. 
 
He/she wasn't driving the ITA boat? 
 
Hmm.


Well put. Sure the ROs set shitty courses, but how does this justify nearly skewering a CHILD with your sprit?

If your at the helm it's your responsibility to handle your vessel properly. These guys are acting like they were stuck on train tracks and couldn't change course. This is total BS. A bit of extra pressure can't justify driving through that fleet...to say nothing of the fact that these douchebag "pros" were on port.

Don't care how fancy your boat is, that is the definition of amateur.


#648 eric e

eric e

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,484 posts
  • Location:the far east

Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:26 AM

got to love the way citizen journalists with cameras 

 

brought what has probably been standard practice for many years by the *pros*

 

to light 

 

i think they'll think twice before they try to double-dare next time 



#649 phrf#!k

phrf#!k

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 48 posts
  • Location:NJ

Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:30 AM

This is really disturbing to me. Not just because of the safety issues involved, but also because of the disrespect shown by the M32 class for the Opti sailors, both during and following the incident. Opti sailors at this level are in many cases tomorrow's Olympic and collegiate champs, and pro sailors of the future. They are the kind of sailors who as adults may make a good living working as tacticians on boats of a similar caliber to the M32. What kind of example are these pros and owners setting concerning sportsmanship, honor, and even good tactics and knowledge of the rules for those kids?

The M32 class is not a "pro circuit" class-the racing is still supposed to be governed by an honor system to some degree. The boats involved should not hide under the cloak of the class "apology"-they gained unfair advantage over their competitors by scaring and fouling the bejesus out of a bunch of young elite sailors, and should take an RAF for that race...

#650 dash34

dash34

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,579 posts
  • Location:Nanaimo, B.C.
  • Interests:Sailing my boat, playing bass and classical guitar, flying sailplanes, skiing, cycling and hiking.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:33 AM

The voices missing here are those of the kids themselves.  I wouldn't want to form an opinion of this either way without hearing from the kids in the Optis.

 

The photos are all at angles where foreshortening could be an issue.  Could be there really was lots of room, as one skipper maintains.  OTOH, the video shows a M32 flogging their kite - they did that for some reason, and it probably had something to do with missing an Opti.

 

I hope there is a hearing, and that some of the kids, like IRL 1481 and USA 10873, can attend or at least make written submissions.  IRL 1481 appears to be sheeting in after a course alteration, for example.  If that alteration was required to prevent a collision, then the M32 should go in the outbasket, lack of a formal protest notwithstanding.

 

Great to hear that a report will be filed, let's let due process take place and see what the outcome is.  

 

dash



#651 carcrash

carcrash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 711 posts
  • Location:Waikiki Yacht Club

Posted 17 July 2013 - 06:00 AM

Breathtaking. That not one, or two, or three, or four, but clearly many of the leaders of the Melges 32 class are subhuman. I am shocked. I have never seen such horrible behavior by what appears to be an entire one design class. I kept thinking, "Well, it was just that first guy. And the second. No, look at the third! And the fourth!!!! And all these others!!!!!

 

I hope I never meet anyone who was involved in this regatta or remains involved in the Melges 32 class.

 

Absolutely no respect, whatsoever.

 

My message to the morally corrupt participants in the Melges 32 Audi Cup:

 

Get out of the sport, now, forever. Better yet, just kill your children, then yourselves. You have proven yourselves, for all to see.



#652 Ncik

Ncik

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 06:12 AM

Better yet, just kill your children, then yourselves.

 

Well that escalated quickly...



#653 sryan

sryan

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Location:Anchorage, AK
  • Interests:Lots of stuff

Posted 17 July 2013 - 06:20 AM

Pretty sure the first picture is not Movistar, look at the pictures where you can see the sail number. I also think it is hard to tell from the second how close they really were, telephotos do change perspective. I'm not saying they for sure were not close just that a side on shot with a telephoto lens is not the best evidence for separation distance to the side.

 

MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

The reason for this letter is to clarify the events that occurred in the waters of Lake Garda, Italy, last Friday on July 12 in celebration of the event 4 of the circuit Audi Sailing Series for the class design. 1. Boat Brontolo ourselves Bribon Movistar, were at that time first and second fleet respectively, we found ourselves in the second stern of the second race, I think. In that same stretch and navigating assumed to port we have the buoy's offset of an Optimist regatta in the midst of our race course. 2. Not knowing if it was a workout or race and seeing a space clear between this group of boats sailing near that buoy decided to follow, amoyando and match our asymmetric to slow down and have more control. We went to 15 knots to 11 knots. There were 18 maximum 16 knots of real wind. 3. At no time any Optimist had to change course and there in no event less than a boat length (about 10meters) distance between us and any Optimist. 4. The other design boats coming to our stern or slightly our Leeward flap could modify its course with more advance and distance themselves a bit more than that group. 5 After the first group of Optimist, about two minutes later and in view of another more numerous group trasluchamos to go to our arrival. 6. Do not we gave importance to this fact, because we consider that we had not affected anyone. 7 On the following day to see again a large fleet of Optimist in the water near our camp we communicate to a vessel of our Committee moments before departure that were carefully with the placement of our field and coordinate with the Optimist race Committee to avoid overlap between the two fields and fleets. Our surprise was to see since yesterday Monday that this fact been reviewed negatively by a group of people on an American blog. Perpetrators of the blog and some readers of this have tried a few facts that did not see personally, they do so based on a video and the comments of who recorded it and a photo. In both cases, and especially in the photo due to the camera's zoom it may seem that the distances were lower. We know that class Melges Europe, the international Melges class and our race organizing Club have been in touch with the appropriate people to clarify this fact. We as team Bribon Movistar and I personally like pattern and co-owner and ultimate responsibility for it at that time, want to by this letter clarifying the facts and we apologize if anyone really believes that we have affected in any way any of those kids who was participating in the race. Remember all that any of our boat's crew sailed in Optimist until not many years ago and that some even has children that do currently. Who may think that at any moment we could act without rating the situation and putting in the minimum possible risk to any of these children? A greeting to all and again apologies to children if we could affect them in something and also those people who as a result of the encountered comments in this blog have been able to feel offended or uncomfortable. Marc Antonio. Bribon Movistar. Design (Translated by Bing)

187755_793000013_1630766059_q.jpg

 

This is poor.  Especially the claim that they never got within a boat length of an Opti.  (Maybe an Opti boat length.)  He says 10 meters though.  Let's look at some of these pictures again.

 

picture2.jpg

 

picture1.jpg

 

In the first picture I drew a line across a line of water as proof that the telephoto lens is not altering the perspective.  The second one is pretty straightforward too.  I don't know if Mr. Antonio honestly believes he never steered his boat within 10 meters of an Opti or if he just thinks we're stupid but it's a blatantly laughable claim.  An insult to the intelligence is what it is.

 

Plus there is no way he can know that no Opti ever had to change course.  One sailing mom already said her son had to.  Sure looks like IRL 1481 changed course like a mofo.  How a guy sailing at 11 knots can look at two dozen Optis and be absolutely sure none of them changed course - that's a hell of a strain on credulity.  Insult to intelligence #2.



#654 Terrorvision

Terrorvision

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,832 posts
  • Interests:Taking 'the' out of Psychotherapist

Posted 17 July 2013 - 06:51 AM

Pretty sure the first picture is not Movistar, look at the pictures where you can see the sail number. I also think it is hard to tell from the second how close they really were, telephotos do change perspective. I'm not saying they for sure were not close just that a side on shot with a telephoto lens is not the best evidence for separation distance to the side.

 

 

MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

/snip/

 

This is poor.  Especially the claim that they never got within a boat length of an Opti.  (Maybe an Opti boat length.)  He says 10 meters though.  Let's look at some of these pictures again.

 

picture2.jpg

 

 

 

/snip/

 

In the first picture you can actually see the shadow of the Opti's mast and sail on the out-of-control Melges kite. How much closer could they be?



#655 cosmicsedso

cosmicsedso

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 694 posts
  • Location:Gold Coast AUS
  • Interests:Boats and trees.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 06:54 AM

It really doesn't matter what tack the M32's ( I cant print Buddys name alongside these dills) were on, or that the courses overlapped (on Lake Garda? Really?).
The simple fact is that these guys recklessly sailed their boats through a kids activity.
They were NOT in a life and death situation.
They were definitely NOT in total control.
They DID make Optis change course for a port tack bully.
They are simply morons who made really poor decisions
These guys did NOT lose the respect of their fellow sailors in winning the regatta, it seems.
But,
They DID lose a lot of respect from fellow sailors worldwide I am sure.
Telephoto lenses aside they sure lost my respect.

#656 Manfred

Manfred

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 369 posts
  • Location:North Germany
  • Interests:Sailing DN on hard water and all sorts of boats on soft water

Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:52 AM

I just cannot accept the apologies. Being a sprit sailor myself for a decade how can they try to convince us, this situation was safe and there had been enough space. Someone here mentioned the possibility of a wind shift and a gust and (could happen anywhere) which means that you just cannot follow your course with this type of overpowered boats (through the gap which you might have seen before) The M32s got out of control, evidence in the photos. The sprit could have definitely smacked a kid in the head or worse, killed a kid. The arrogance of these guys, I just cannot understand. 

 

I do hope for the sake of our sport that there is much more happening in the background between the sailors (kids and M32 sailors) the clubs and officials as we currently get to know from these lame excuses.



#657 JuvenileD

JuvenileD

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 331 posts
  • Location:UK South Coast

Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:57 AM

For me the kingpin to getting the kids some justice is the no-nonsense letter from Sally Burnett. Her resume on the optiworld website reads;

 

Sally Burnett is from Newcastle-u[nder]-Lyme, near Manchester, [UK] joined IODA in February. An ISAF International Judge and Umpire since 1998, she is Chairman of ISAF International judges Sub-Committee and a member of Race Officials Committee.

 

From her clear condemnation of the M32's in the incident along with the race organisers, and being able to gain the attention of movers at the highest level in our sport, there is no doubt in my mind that her intervention will result in public humiliation for some.

 

Sally, we need people like you in charge of our racing who can see through all the puff, spin, influence and money to get right to the heart of the matter. You must be a huge inspiration to the kids in your charge.

 

The M32's appear to have found their nemesis.



#658 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 08:20 AM

I've raced on M32s.  In the position that Movistar is in:  Kite fully drawing, heeled 30 degrees, helm up 45 degrees, main inverted, jib partly luffing

 

They are not "in control".   They are also not "out of control" - they are "on the hairy edge".   Which is what you do when you are racing at the top level and you are around other boats in your class [b]of similar skill and maneuverability[b].  

 

"room" under the rules relies on a combination of factors:  Wind state (16-18 and PUFFY), Sea State (looked to be about 2' wind driven chop),  Boat Performance (a 30'  Shields needs more "room" than a 30' M32) - and  although the rules say the opposite: somewhat the skill level of the sailors involved.

 

What this means is that if Movistar was in a match race with another M32, and that separation was the same as between Movistar and the Opti in the photo, the other boat would be constrained from altering course because in that wind and sea state and that angle of sail, Movistar's maneuverability is dramatically limited: try to come up 5 degrees and they probably spin out, try to push the nose down 10 degrees and the same thing.    At that angle of sail, in those conditions IN THAT MOMENT (ie with that attitude of boat and rudder angle)   they were relying on not getting hit by a puff and not having to alter course more than 5 degrees either way

 

Yes Movistar is highly skilled.  And theoretically so are the Opti World's kids.   BUT  since the Opti's were NOT in the same racing program as the M32's,  the M32's had no legitimate basis for assuming the high skill level.      Thus they were constrained by the rules to assume an AVERAGE skill level.

 

 

 

Putting a boat that is moving at 14 knots AND DECELERATING (by Movistar's own testimony) - which means they are loading up their control surfaces,  within 10' of another boat which has ROW on you,  when you have only minor ability to control direction is in fact a violation of the rules.  that these bozos don't get this is telling.


What's kinda pathetic is Clean's suckup to the Movistar guys on their website.



#659 HILLY

HILLY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 932 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 08:23 AM

Wow, if these 2 photos are in sequence, then Audi and Melges owe a young sailor a new pair of
shorts and underwear..
No, not the "tyke" with his helm hard over, but the other one, between his bow and boom, who is
probably praying that the melges rudder doesn't bite on full bear away.

Attached Files



#660 mad

mad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,867 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:45 AM

I've raced on M32s.  In the position that Movistar is in:  Kite fully drawing, heeled 30 degrees, helm up 45 degrees, main inverted, jib partly luffing

 

They are not "in control".   They are also not "out of control" - they are "on the hairy edge".   Which is what you do when you are racing at the top level and you are around other boats in your class [b]of similar skill and maneuverability[b].  

 

"room" under the rules relies on a combination of factors:  Wind state (16-18 and PUFFY), Sea State (looked to be about 2' wind driven chop),  Boat Performance (a 30'  Shields needs more "room" than a 30' M32) - and  although the rules say the opposite: somewhat the skill level of the sailors involved.

 

What this means is that if Movistar was in a match race with another M32, and that separation was the same as between Movistar and the Opti in the photo, the other boat would be constrained from altering course because in that wind and sea state and that angle of sail, Movistar's maneuverability is dramatically limited: try to come up 5 degrees and they probably spin out, try to push the nose down 10 degrees and the same thing.    At that angle of sail, in those conditions IN THAT MOMENT (ie with that attitude of boat and rudder angle)   they were relying on not getting hit by a puff and not having to alter course more than 5 degrees either way

 

Yes Movistar is highly skilled.  And theoretically so are the Opti World's kids.   BUT  since the Opti's were NOT in the same racing program as the M32's,  the M32's had no legitimate basis for assuming the high skill level.      Thus they were constrained by the rules to assume an AVERAGE skill level.

 

 

 

Putting a boat that is moving at 14 knots AND DECELERATING (by Movistar's own testimony) - which means they are loading up their control surfaces,  within 10' of another boat which has ROW on you,  when you have only minor ability to control direction is in fact a violation of the rules.  that these bozos don't get this is telling.

What's kinda pathetic is Clean's suckup to the Movistar guys on their website.

Link?



#661 fudheid

fudheid

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:01 AM

 

 


This guy has total control. F'ing idiot. 
 
DSC_7625.jpg

 
LOL almost smacked the little tyke in the head with our boom haha the PRO practically got that little tyke killed. dangerous but what ya gonna do?
 
/argo dipshittery
 
Picture kind of drives home a point about the visibility question earlier re: A-chutes. Forget the A-chute, there's no chance of seeing underneath the main. All you can do is hope there's no Opti there when your main trimmer pops the sheet to back off the throttle. Might scratch your boom on his head.

The "Argo dipshittery" is the craft of Clean's buddy Rev Petey who is noticeably absent in this thread. Given his commentary it would be interesting to have him weigh in.

 

That kid must be stoked, best wave he's got onto all day!

Think this is a USA boat.....i think the perspective is skewed on this and you are all just speculating on shit you haven't seen for real not a shadow that is secondary reinforcement on the clew. you can see from other photo's shadows etc, 
Seriously count to ten, listen to the people on board then make a judgement.  ...drawing lines on a photo come on get real. I know lets just hang em as a bunch of know'all psychotic forum witch hunt mo fo's...you are the scariest bunch of feckers i have ever read.
PS whislt we are at at why don't we manhunt Cayard just for being a c**t too?

 

from a different perspective....things look different http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M3bfO1rE7Yg



#662 KiwiJoker

KiwiJoker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,748 posts
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:23 AM

Issues aside of poor communication between two RCs on a restricted body of water, the M32s involved here had a duty of care to the Opti kids. 

 

Threading the needle at high speed  on port gybe through a gaggle of starboard tackers while on the hairy edge is just not on.  

 

Heads should roll.

 

Good to see that Hank Stuart has already looking at Rule 69 action. Good for him.

 

Some of our more rabid posters here should remember that Rule 69, Gross Misconduct, is not limited to breaches of the racing rules.  It also embraces "good manners, sportsmanship or conduct bringing the sport into disrepute."

 

The initial photo evidence shown here suggests that a few M32 skippers might be spending time ashore or cruising after all the facts are in. 

 

Plenty of witnesses to this blatant on-water bullying of kids.  And I'm sure more pix will surface.



#663 mad

mad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,867 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:39 AM

 

 

 


This guy has total control. F'ing idiot. 
 
DSC_7625.jpg

 
LOL almost smacked the little tyke in the head with our boom haha the PRO practically got that little tyke killed. dangerous but what ya gonna do?
 
/argo dipshittery
 
Picture kind of drives home a point about the visibility question earlier re: A-chutes. Forget the A-chute, there's no chance of seeing underneath the main. All you can do is hope there's no Opti there when your main trimmer pops the sheet to back off the throttle. Might scratch your boom on his head.

The "Argo dipshittery" is the craft of Clean's buddy Rev Petey who is noticeably absent in this thread. Given his commentary it would be interesting to have him weigh in.

 

That kid must be stoked, best wave he's got onto all day!

Think this is a USA boat.....i think the perspective is skewed on this and you are all just speculating on shit you haven't seen for real not a shadow that is secondary reinforcement on the clew. you can see from other photo's shadows etc, 
Seriously count to ten, listen to the people on board then make a judgement.  ...drawing lines on a photo come on get real. I know lets just hang em as a bunch of know'all psychotic forum witch hunt mo fo's...you are the scariest bunch of feckers i have ever read.
PS whislt we are at at why don't we manhunt Cayard just for being a c**t too?

 

from a different perspective....things look different http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M3bfO1rE7Yg

They already are over in Americas Cup Anarchy.



#664 Terrorvision

Terrorvision

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,832 posts
  • Interests:Taking 'the' out of Psychotherapist

Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

 

 

 


This guy has total control. F'ing idiot. 
 
DSC_7625.jpg

 
LOL almost smacked the little tyke in the head with our boom haha the PRO practically got that little tyke killed. dangerous but what ya gonna do?
 
/argo dipshittery
 
Picture kind of drives home a point about the visibility question earlier re: A-chutes. Forget the A-chute, there's no chance of seeing underneath the main. All you can do is hope there's no Opti there when your main trimmer pops the sheet to back off the throttle. Might scratch your boom on his head.

The "Argo dipshittery" is the craft of Clean's buddy Rev Petey who is noticeably absent in this thread. Given his commentary it would be interesting to have him weigh in.

 

That kid must be stoked, best wave he's got onto all day!

Think this is a USA boat.....i think the perspective is skewed on this and you are all just speculating on shit you haven't seen for real not a shadow that is secondary reinforcement on the clew. you can see from other photo's shadows etc, 
Seriously count to ten, listen to the people on board then make a judgement.  ...drawing lines on a photo come on get real. I know lets just hang em as a bunch of know'all psychotic forum witch hunt mo fo's...you are the scariest bunch of feckers i have ever read.
PS whislt we are at at why don't we manhunt Cayard just for being a c**t too?

 

from a different perspective....things look different http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M3bfO1rE7Yg

 

LOL



#665 Lamps

Lamps

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:51 AM

 


Escalted to ISAF I'm told.  Will take some time for any action to be taken.  I expect that is why all have gone silent - realisation hitting home.
Class - PRO - individual boats and sailors - probably all little worried right now.
 

Yes, if you consider the relative size of the Opti Fleet/Organization/mafia, the M32 class is around 45 Goliaths facing an army of about 150,000 Opti Davids, and there will be some heavy hitter parents in the wings of the Opti group. They will have a lot of pull with ISAF as well as the moral high ground.
I wouldn't want the opti world vexed with me.
 
The ISAF will do what exactly?

Sanction sailors through censure/suspension/bans, these guys race in a lot of classes, even if M32 broke from ISAF over this and did their own thing it would hurt the pro's livelihood. Doubt it will come to that, even now the M32 class has condemned the incident, but if any of the sailors on the M32 took a hard line and didn't express some remorse there could be further actions I think.

#666 jasenj1

jasenj1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 60 posts
  • Location:Tidewater, VA

Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:51 AM

What the fuck is decelerating???

Do you mean acceleration to a lower speed??

http://www.google.co...?q=decelerating

 

You're trolling or stupid.



#667 JuvenileD

JuvenileD

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 331 posts
  • Location:UK South Coast

Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:53 AM

 

Pretty sure the first picture is not Movistar, look at the pictures where you can see the sail number. I also think it is hard to tell from the second how close they really were, telephotos do change perspective. I'm not saying they for sure were not close just that a side on shot with a telephoto lens is not the best evidence for separation distance to the side.

 

 

MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

/snip/

 

This is poor.  Especially the claim that they never got within a boat length of an Opti.  (Maybe an Opti boat length.)  He says 10 meters though.  Let's look at some of these pictures again.

 

picture2.jpg

 

 

 

/snip/

 

In the first picture you can actually see the shadow of the Opti's mast and sail on the out-of-control Melges kite. How much closer could they be?

 

 

Sorry Baltic Bandit but the sun is high and on the left, so that cannot be a shadow from the Opti on the M32. However I also do not believe newbie FudHeid that all we are seeing is reinforcement on the M32 clew. The reality is I think more damming.

 

Note that the Opti appears to be in the shade.

 

Even the cylindrical polished finish Opti spars show no sign of reflected sunshine... and the only thing in shot that might be blocking the sun is the M32 main. 

 

If the Opti is indeed in the shade of the M32, and don't forget we can see the M32 A sail behind the Opti, then irrespective of the telephoto foreshortening effect I think there is less than the claimed 10m separation.

 

Combine that with the emergency-stop helm-over action being taken by the Opti Skipper, and where he is looking, indicates that he is taking action to avoid collision. 

 

The previously posted video does not show a subsequent penalty taken by the M32. 

 

Irrespective of the seamanship/safety issues, in my book that would be enough for most PC's to DSQ the Melges. 



#668 8Y8

8Y8

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 375 posts
  • Location:Pittwater AUS

Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:50 AM

If the Opti is indeed in the shade of the M32, and don't forget we can see the M32 A sail behind the Opti, then irrespective of the telephoto foreshortening effect I think there is less than the claimed 10m separation.

 

Irrespective of the seamanship/safety issues, in my book that would be enough for most PC's to DSQ the Melges. 

 

An opti dinghy is less than 1meter wide at the stern, could you fit 10 optis side by side in that space?



#669 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:55 AM

Well for one it wasn't me claiming the shadow on the kite, BUT we can tell a couple of things from that photo:

 

the rudder measurement - according to Opti rules, has basically 34cm from the head of the rudder to the bottom pintle.

 

Deck to upper lifeline on the M32 at the stanchion is roughly 60cm.  Now just from a rough paper caliper (if I was doing this for a hearing I'd pull up photoshop and count pixels as they do in the LR protest above) the ratios between the two are 2:1.  That means the two boats are roughly abeam of each other in the image plane.

 

Now an Opti's stern is 300cm or 1meter wide, so using that measure I get 4.5 meters lateral separation from the boom to the Opti's port side (not 10 meters). 

 

That's roughly 15'   or less than 1/2 a BL between the Opti and the M32.    That's a helluva lot less than the 10 meters that Movistar is claiming.

 

 

These guys are just going on their memory of a fairly exciting moment in the course - and memories are faulty.   The photo evidence is damning   


(and yes Gouv, Deceleration is acceleration with a negative vector component)



#670 frostbit

frostbit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:03 PM

Wow, if these 2 photos are in sequence, then Audi and Melges owe a young sailor a new pair ofshorts and underwear..No, not the "tyke" with his helm hard over, but the other one, between his bow and boom, who isprobably praying that the melges rudder doesn't bite on full bear away.


Should the order of photos be reversed? First photo is full pucker factor 5 ( in shade of m32 sails as JD points out, but I think it may be spin and main shade.) Second photo should be aftermath as M32 pulls further ahead. Kid is back in the sun. Clearly had a terrifying, if brief, few moments.

#671 grouchyIRL

grouchyIRL

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 154 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:03 PM

it's actually quite a simple calculation to work out how far away objects are in an image. You just need to know a dimension on the object (horizontal or vertical will do), the lens settings & details, plus the sensor size on the camera. Know that and you can categorically state how close to the lens two objects are...



#672 Tom Ray

Tom Ray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,788 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda FL
  • Interests:~~/)/)~~

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:10 PM

The other thing we can tell from that photo is that the rudder is hard over and the kid's eyes are glued to the M32, as mentioned.

 

In the other photo showing the port/starboard situation, the kid who altered course has his elbow way up in the air. That tells me he's sheeting in because the M32 on port caused him to change course.

 

Maybe he yelled for them to cross. These kids are World Class optimist sailors, but that doesn't mean they have the experience to judge closing angles with such fast boats. Maybe they have sailed with some, maybe not. Putting a kid in the position of having to make that call, especially when on the "hairy edge" of control as BB stated, is incredibly reckless.

 

I'm not much of a racer, but have a bit of experience in that area since I used to race our F-27 in local club races here. Lots of those monohull jockeys are just not used to something 20' wide coming at twice their speed and they just might do something really stupid right in front of me.



#673 fudheid

fudheid

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:11 PM

 

 

Pretty sure the first picture is not Movistar, look at the pictures where you can see the sail number. I also think it is hard to tell from the second how close they really were, telephotos do change perspective. I'm not saying they for sure were not close just that a side on shot with a telephoto lens is not the best evidence for separation distance to the side.

 

 

MovieStar has posted this on their Facebook site (sorry its the Bing translation as I don't speak Italian)

/snip/

 

This is poor.  Especially the claim that they never got within a boat length of an Opti.  (Maybe an Opti boat length.)  He says 10 meters though.  Let's look at some of these pictures again.

 

picture2.jpg

 

 

 

/snip/

 

In the first picture you can actually see the shadow of the Opti's mast and sail on the out-of-control Melges kite. How much closer could they be?

 

 

Sorry Baltic Bandit but the sun is high and on the left, so that cannot be a shadow from the Opti on the M32. However I also do not believe newbie FudHeid that all we are seeing is reinforcement on the M32 clew. The reality is I think more damming.

 

Note that the Opti appears to be in the shade.

 

Even the cylindrical polished finish Opti spars show no sign of reflected sunshine... and the only thing in shot that might be blocking the sun is the M32 main. 

 

If the Opti is indeed in the shade of the M32, and don't forget we can see the M32 A sail behind the Opti, then irrespective of the telephoto foreshortening effect I think there is less than the claimed 10m separation.

 

Combine that with the emergency-stop helm-over action being taken by the Opti Skipper, and where he is looking, indicates that he is taking action to avoid collision. 

 

The previously posted video does not show a subsequent penalty taken by the M32. 

 

Irrespective of the seamanship/safety issues, in my book that would be enough for most PC's to DSQ the Melges. 

Check out the size of the tack reinforcement on that photo.... but maybe it is the shadow from the mainsail??

Maybe the opti rig is shaded because he has just gybed and is sailing by the lee, he does not look like he is out of control emergency is this the same opi before the gybe???

DSC_7625.jpg



#674 Lummux the Great

Lummux the Great

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 484 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:14 PM

it's actually quite a simple calculation to work out how far away objects are in an image. You just need to know a dimension on the object (horizontal or vertical will do), the lens settings & details, plus the sensor size on the camera. Know that and you can categorically state how close to the lens two objects are...


Lens settings and sensor data can usually be found in the jpeg's metadata.. so that info is available is you download the jpeg

#675 aquaspratt

aquaspratt

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:17 PM

I've learnt a few things from reading this thread.
1: some of you are morons.
2: perspective is a weird thing..... Apparently the boats outside my window aren't all 4" long. Who would of guessed?
3: you all need to go sailing more instead of trying to hang someone for a situation you didn't see with crap low photo's and videos as your only evidence.

If your all really quick the next band wagon is leaving soon, you should all go jump on that!

#676 grouchyIRL

grouchyIRL

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 154 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:24 PM

it's actually quite a simple calculation to work out how far away objects are in an image. You just need to know a dimension on the object (horizontal or vertical will do), the lens settings & details, plus the sensor size on the camera. Know that and you can categorically state how close to the lens two objects are...


Lens settings and sensor data can usually be found in the jpeg's metadata.. so that info is available is you download the jpeg

 

 

I've learnt a few things from reading this thread.
1: some of you are morons.
2: perspective is a weird thing..... Apparently the boats outside my window aren't all 4" long. Who would of guessed?
3: you all need to go sailing more instead of trying to hang someone for a situation you didn't see with crap low photo's and videos as your only evidence.

If your all really quick the next band wagon is leaving soon, you should all go jump on that!

 

 

It's possible, though, to work out how close the objects actually are :o

 

I downloaded the jpeg but all the info is missing. I'll gladly do the calc, though, if anyone can supply the info.



#677 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:24 PM

" crap low photo's and videos as your only evidence."  


Evidence:  we've seen high res version of those photos, and now we've heard from two opti sailors and a half dozen opti parents and coaches.  we've heard from the sec general and from the highest ranking us opti in that fleet.



#678 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:28 PM

Well for one it wasn't me claiming the shadow on the kite, BUT we can tell a couple of things from that photo:

 

the rudder measurement - according to Opti rules, has basically 34cm from the head of the rudder to the bottom pintle.

 

Deck to upper lifeline on the M32 at the stanchion is roughly 60cm.  Now just from a rough paper caliper (if I was doing this for a hearing I'd pull up photoshop and count pixels as they do in the LR protest above) the ratios between the two are 2:1.  That means the two boats are roughly abeam of each other in the image plane.

 

Now an Opti's stern is 300cm or 1meter wide, so using that measure I get 4.5 meters lateral separation from the boom to the Opti's port side (not 10 meters). 

 

That's roughly 15'   or less than 1/2 a BL between the Opti and the M32.    That's a helluva lot less than the 10 meters that Movistar is claiming.

 

 

These guys are just going on their memory of a fairly exciting moment in the course - and memories are faulty.   The photo evidence is damning   


(and yes Gouv, Deceleration is acceleration with a negative vector component)

How many times do people need to tell you that the picture that you are analyzing is not Movistar, but Argo?



#679 fudheid

fudheid

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:32 PM

" crap low photo's and videos as your only evidence."  


Evidence:  we've seen high res version of those photos, and now we've heard from two opti sailors and a half dozen opti parents and coaches.  we've heard from the sec general and from the highest ranking us opti in that fleet.

So why are we hanging italians when quite clearly it is a yank boat in the photo??? i notice they haven't managed to step up to the plate as you say and make his apology??? a small part of me hopes it is owned by cayard just so we can see more of your vitriol poured onto him! Burn him he's a witch!



#680 Bras_de_Bois

Bras_de_Bois

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 10 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:34 PM

Wow, if these 2 photos are in sequence, then Audi and Melges owe a young sailor a new pair of
shorts and underwear..
No, not the "tyke" with his helm hard over, but the other one, between his bow and boom, who is
probably praying that the melges rudder doesn't bite on full bear away.

 

Wow, if these 2 photos are in sequence, then Audi and Melges owe a young sailor a new pair of
shorts and underwear..
No, not the "tyke" with his helm hard over, but the other one, between his bow and boom, who is
probably praying that the melges rudder doesn't bite on full bear away.

 

in these two pics you can see American M32 Team: Argo! Why do you want killing only Movistar and Brontolo! Nobody speaks about the apologyze of Argo, why? because he is yankee???



#681 frostbit

frostbit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

Have to say that the M32 class response is strong and does not duck the issue at hand. It shows integrity and a recognition of what could have happened. Still fascinating to pull the evidence apart to recreate the event, and while it is clear the behavior of at least two M32s was outrageous on the water and least 1 outrageous after the fact, it seems as if the M32 class, the Opti class, and ISAF are all appropriately engaged and talking.

#682 Colonel Angus

Colonel Angus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

Wow, if these 2 photos are in sequence, then Audi and Melges owe a young sailor a new pair of
shorts and underwear..
No, not the "tyke" with his helm hard over, but the other one, between his bow and boom, who is
probably praying that the melges rudder doesn't bite on full bear away.


We haven't heard anything from Argo yet, (sail number 128) have we?

#683 AYACHT

AYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,442 posts
  • Location:HILLSMERE

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:40 PM

These two jackasses should just drive Monster Truck's through a kids soccer field!



#684 barleymalt

barleymalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,244 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:41 PM

And the train goes off the tracks. I doubt there was intent to cause harm on the part of the M32s. Only they know what the thought process was. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we have all done things in the heat of battle that we regret later. What happened can't be undone, but they can either continue to justify it, or man up, admit it was a dumb thing to do, be thankful no one got hurt, apologize to those as affected and move on. Your call, Melgis.

#685 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:47 PM

We can do the same with the Movistar photo   (I know the first one is not Movistar, but we can run the same numbers).   And if we know the lenses used (and with the High res images that's available but most uploaders strip that info for a variety of reasons) and the actual field of view of the whole image, we can do a second set of numbers to confirm the first.

 

these guys were closer than 1BL  PERIOD



#686 JuvenileD

JuvenileD

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 331 posts
  • Location:UK South Coast

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:47 PM

Wow, if these 2 photos are in sequence, then Audi and Melges owe a young sailor a new pair of
shorts and underwear..
No, not the "tyke" with his helm hard over, but the other one, between his bow and boom, who is
probably praying that the melges rudder doesn't bite on full bear away.


We haven't heard anything from Argo yet, (sail number 128) have we?

 

Not a whisper, but other than a mea culpa there is little they could say to temper the mood of the SA mob. If they defend themselves we'll shout at them, if they say sorry we'll scream for a retirement, and if they retire then we'll kick them for not doing it earlier. My guess would be that Jason Carroll has advised all his team to keep their council and await events.

I don't think 
Bras_de_Bois is right to accuse SA posters of racism; the M32's are getting it in the neck all over the world.



#687 fudheid

fudheid

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:51 PM

OH NO they've done it again! only this time it's the opis flying through the melges fleet! check how close this kid gets!
http://www.melges32....-Ranchi_126.JPG



#688 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:51 PM

The M32s deserve it.  All the photos show them breaking the rules.    The reason I'm arguing against BOTH Argo AND Movistar is that the photo evidence is damning.



#689 fudheid

fudheid

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:52 PM

oh shit t bone! at garda!

http://www.melges32....-Ranchi_118.JPG

 

i wish i could upload photo's rather than links but hey i'm not really on the witch hunt i'm getting splinters on the fence!



#690 Winston905

Winston905

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:55 PM

Issues aside of poor communication between two RCs on a restricted body of water, the M32s involved here had a duty of care to the Opti kids. 

 

Threading the needle at high speed  on port gybe through a gaggle of starboard tackers while on the hairy edge is just not on.  

 

Heads should roll.

 

Good to see that Hank Stuart has already looking at Rule 69 action. Good for him.

 

Some of our more rabid posters here should remember that Rule 69, Gross Misconduct, is not limited to breaches of the racing rules.  It also embraces "good manners, sportsmanship or conduct bringing the sport into disrepute."

 

The initial photo evidence shown here suggests that a few M32 skippers might be spending time ashore or cruising after all the facts are in. 

 

Plenty of witnesses to this blatant on-water bullying of kids.  And I'm sure more pix will surface.

 have to laugh  at the  rule 69 gross misconduct on a flame in a web forum  WHEN   a 69 action  on the water in full sight of everybody  happens  ......   and they blow it off....

 

 

I've learnt a few things from reading this thread.
1: some of you are morons.
2: perspective is a weird thing..... Apparently the boats outside my window aren't all 4" long. Who would of guessed?
3: you all need to go sailing more instead of trying to hang someone for a situation you didn't see with crap low photo's and videos as your only evidence.

If your all really quick the next band wagon is leaving soon, you should all go jump on that!

this guy sounds like a crew member on an offending boat.....

 

a noobie.. hmmmmmm

 

 

 

glad to see the powers to be  have a handle on this now.    its now up to the  international to see what they do.......

 

 

the ball is now in your court....



#691 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:00 PM

The M32s deserve it.  All the photos show them breaking the rules.    The reason I'm arguing against BOTH Argo AND Movistar is that the photo evidence is damning.


Which photo of Bribon-Movistar would that be, please?

#692 sailingDad

sailingDad

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 46 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:05 PM

OH NO they've done it again! only this time it's the opis flying through the melges fleet! check how close this kid gets!
http://www.melges32....-Ranchi_126.JPG

 

that will be an Opti on starboard then?



#693 JuvenileD

JuvenileD

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 331 posts
  • Location:UK South Coast

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

oh shit t bone! at garda!

http://www.melges32....-Ranchi_118.JPG

 

i wish i could upload photo's rather than links but hey i'm not really on the witch hunt i'm getting splinters on the fence!

 

Sorry no cigar. A T-Bone is when boats come together. In this shot the two M32's are safely passing clear to windward of the Opti. Move along. Nothing to see here.



#694 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,339 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:12 PM

" crap low photo's and videos as your only evidence."  


Evidence:  we've seen high res version of those photos, and now we've heard from two opti sailors and a half dozen opti parents and coaches.  we've heard from the sec general and from the highest ranking us opti in that fleet.

So why are we hanging italians when quite clearly it is a yank boat in the photo??? i notice they haven't managed to step up to the plate as you say and make his apology??? a small part of me hopes it is owned by cayard just so we can see more of your vitriol poured onto him! Burn him he's a witch!

I don't see why anyone should be hung.  Pacinotti was out of line, and apologized.  The Class recognized the incident was out of line, and apologized.  Argo has already apologized to the Opti class and I expect them to issue a more public apology when they are ready.  Bribon is defensive and doesn't want to admit they were out of line.  I trust the M32 Class to do the right thing and prevent this kind of shit from happening in the future.  It happens way too often - both the conflicted courses and the big boats sailing through little boats scenario.I think the incident and publicity will also force the idiot ROs at the North end of the lake to use their heads when setting courses, and maybe pick up a phone and call each other to keep themselves from looking incompetent again in front of the world.



#695 JuvenileD

JuvenileD

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 331 posts
  • Location:UK South Coast

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:17 PM

OH NO they've done it again! only this time it's the opis flying through the melges fleet! check how close this kid gets!
http://www.melges32....-Ranchi_126.JPG

 

Again there does not appear to be an incident here.

 

Port tack JPN199 is lower than the other M32's so appears to have dipped slightly to safely cross behind starboard tack Opti ITA 8121 and Opti ITA 8182 is on the same port tack as JPN 199. Unless there is an additional shot in the sequence showing that ITA 8182 tacked away because of concerns over the approaching JPN 199 there is nothing to answer for.



#696 jurrasicsailor

jurrasicsailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 380 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:18 PM

I've learnt a few things from reading this thread.
1: some of you are morons.
2: perspective is a weird thing..... Apparently the boats outside my window aren't all 4" long. Who would of guessed?
3: you all need to go sailing more instead of trying to hang someone for a situation you didn't see with crap low photo's and videos as your only evidence.

If your all really quick the next band wagon is leaving soon, you should all go jump on that!

 

Aquaspratt, on this specific case I am going to respectfully disagree.  This site was sited by one of the apologists as being one reason he was making any comment at all.  Collectively we are the sport and set the tenor of how it will be conducted.  In this case SA served a useful function to rally people, and to centralize what was known about the "incident".  Perhaps the IOD class would have made their view to the Melges Class known without us, but I believe we helped in some small way.  Transparency is almost always a good thing. 

 

I am not condemning the M32 sailors that made, as corroborated by the IOD class, a really boneheaded decision.  We have all done it at least once.  My hope is they will take a deep breath, accept THEY THEMSELVES made a mistake, and provide their own consequences in the form of disqualifying themselves from that race.  As top echelon sailors even within the M32 ranks, they will have demonstrated clear standards to the rest of the fleet as to what sort of group they wish to be.  THAT is leadership.  Then we can all move on.

 

There is a great quote in Buddy Melges' own book "Sailing Smart, Winning....." that I think captures this best:

 

"I was actually leading the regatta until I ran into the leeward mark during the last race.  Though there was a funny sea condition at the mark, to this day I'm still not sure what happened.  All of a sudden I saw that I had ticked the buoy.  In those days the racing rules said that if you hit a buoy you were automatically disqualified, so I just turned the boat around and headed for the shore.  I had a 200 yard lead and nobody even saw the infraction.  In fact, when I headed for home the judges came over and made a big fuss about it.  But my father had driven it into me that the only way you sail a race is the honest way.  And the passage of time hasn't changed that one bit."



#697 KC375

KC375

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Location:Ontario
  • Interests:family, sailing, skiing, travel

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:20 PM

 

" crap low photo's and videos as your only evidence."  


Evidence:  we've seen high res version of those photos, and now we've heard from two opti sailors and a half dozen opti parents and coaches.  we've heard from the sec general and from the highest ranking us opti in that fleet.

So why are we hanging italians when quite clearly it is a yank boat in the photo??? i notice they haven't managed to step up to the plate as you say and make his apology??? a small part of me hopes it is owned by cayard just so we can see more of your vitriol poured onto him! Burn him he's a witch!

I don't see why anyone should be hung.  Pacinotti was out of line, and apologized.  The Class recognized the incident was out of line, and apologized.  Argo has already apologized to the Opti class and I expect them to issue a more public apology when they are ready.  Bribon is defensive and doesn't want to admit they were out of line.  I trust the M32 Class to do the right thing and prevent this kind of shit from happening in the future.  It happens way too often - both the conflicted courses and the big boats sailing through little boats scenario.I think the incident and publicity will also force the idiot ROs at the North end of the lake to use their heads when setting courses, and maybe pick up a phone and call each other to keep themselves from looking incompetent again in front of the world.

An apology, a reported apology, a non apology...none of those are exonerations. Or is there a new rule that says none of the rules matter if you later post an explanation to facebook.



#698 Winston905

Winston905

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:23 PM

"I was actually leading the regatta until I ran into the leeward mark during the last race.  Though there was a funny sea condition at the mark, to this day I'm still not sure what happened.  All of a sudden I saw that I had ticked the buoy.  In those days the racing rules said that if you hit a buoy you were automatically disqualified, so I just turned the boat around and headed for the shore.  I had a 200 yard lead and nobody even saw the infraction.  In fact, when I headed for home the judges came over and made a big fuss about it.  But my father had driven it into me that the only way you sail a race is the honest way.  And the passage of time hasn't changed that one bit."

 
 
 
Claps....!!!!!
 
+1


#699 coyotepup

coyotepup

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 287 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:30 PM

Wow, if these 2 photos are in sequence, then Audi and Melges owe a young sailor a new pair of
shorts and underwear..
No, not the "tyke" with his helm hard over, but the other one, between his bow and boom, who is
probably praying that the melges rudder doesn't bite on full bear away.

 

>Wow, if these 2 photos are in sequence, then Audi and Melges owe a young sailor a new pair of
shorts and underwear..
No, not the "tyke" with his helm hard over, but the other one, between his bow and boom, who is
probably praying that the melges rudder doesn't bite on full bear away.

 

in these two pics you can see American M32 Team: Argo! Why do you want killing only Movistar and Brontolo! Nobody speaks about the apologyze of Argo, why? because he is yankee???

 

 

I've been critical a dozen times of Argo's crap, thank you very much. They've been some of the worst of all. You see every time someone uses the word "tyke"? That's because an Argo sailor did it first and some of us think that's just as condescending as anything else. They were blatantly unapologetic for a long time and shifted all the blame to the PROs. This has not gone unnoticed, so don't go accusing everyone of jingoism.



#700 Colonel Angus

Colonel Angus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:55 PM


The M32s deserve it.  All the photos show them breaking the rules.    The reason I'm arguing against BOTH Argo AND Movistar is that the photo evidence is damning.

Which photo of Bribon-Movistar would that be, please?


Unbelieveable.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users