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Foiling Singlehander-what do you want to see?

Cat or Tri? How big? How wide? Cost?

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#1 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 04:16 PM

What  "ingredients" would make a successful singlehanded multihull foiler? The new AC cat technology has changed the performance of catamaran foilers profoundly from the years when a cat foiler would not beat the same boat with no foils.

"Traditional" trimaran foilers such as the Hobie Trifoiler and Rave were very fast but required too much wind to foil regularly in most areas of the US.  

Haven't heard too much about the new cat foiler's ability upwind but it seems at least a couple will foil in 8knots or below.

Does upwind foiling seem like a prerequisite to a viable cat or tri foiler?

The Moth stands as the most efficient small foiler upwind  with the big disadvantage of difficulty in starting and in sailing and poor stability. Having to wade out chest deep to start seems like something that will be eliminated by a multihull foiler.

--

So I'd like to hear peoples ideas about a singlehanded multihull foiler......



#2 TheFlash

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

are you going to actually listen to folks, or berate those that don't agree with your ideas?



#3 worldinchaos

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 04:51 PM

I own a Rave and foil regularly in Long Beach CA in as little as 12 knots, but after three weekends in a row here of the wind peaking at ~11 knots in the afternoon, I'm starting to really yearn for some more of that light wind performance you mention. The ability to retract the foils and delatch the wands in lightwind is absolutely essential to sailing in sub 10 knot winds. However, if I could fly all 3 hulls in as low as 8 knots instead, I would be out there practically every Sunday. 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the ways in which that is accomplished result in the boat becoming much more fragile. I am not a racer, and I don't have the luxury of living near some wide open lake or bay with consistent wind and no obstacles or submerged hazards. I frequently pick up kelp, have banged into a few rocks while avoiding 100 ft ferries on the way out of the harbor entrance, and have gone from 6 knots to 0 in a couple feet when my rudder foil caught a high sandbar. If any of that had happened without sturdy aluminum foils, and *unbreakable* polyethylene hulls, the results would have been very different. 

 

I am not a Windrider PR person, and I appreciate the higher speeds of the trifoiler, the light wind capability of the moth, and the performance of the larger boats. I'm simply a Hobie cat sailor that wanted to be able to beach launch a boat that flies more than one hull, and use it in an equally abusive manner. Thus, the Rave fits me. I would absolutely love if you could get more performance out of a boat that fits that description, I just don't see it as the direction that designers are heading. I see more and more carbon fiber on everything, and that is not something that a person like me can utilize. I don't want a Formula 1 car that has to go on specially designed tracks but hits incredible speeds, I want a consumer sports car that may be faster than everything else on the road, even though it could never compete in Le Mans. 

 

Give me those ingredients, and you've got a customer. (or let's go into business together...)



#4 BalticBandit

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:26 PM

Doug, shoo.  How many "people's foiler" threads are you going to start?

 

I've given up on having a rational conversation with you and just reporting every "People's Foiler" crap thread you start



#5 zerothehero

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:50 AM

I would like a foiler that is good in light wind and is no more complex or fragile than my Hobie Wave.  Why?  Because my son loves than boat and loves it best when we fly a hull, so something with only 3 lines, bulletproof construction (so a 10 year old can beat on it) and light air capable would be great.  And it has to be cheap, if the boy is going to bash it up I want less than $5K to start with parts readily available and affordable.  Figure that out and you might have something.



#6 ita 16

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:18 AM

I think we have to wait a few more years to see a single head as a class A have a constant flight in all wind-wave conditions, currently this is almost impssibile, only using automatic systems adjustment foil (like the Moth) we can get a constant flight , but these systems make life more difficult and increase costs, then the proposal to change the rule 8.2 (to simplify and reduce costs) is bullshit. know how many single head flying? how they do this in a constant way? is there any example or  movie of single-head flying that there may convince you that you can make flying races?

greetings , Michele



#7 piv

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:40 AM

Ok now lets see Oracle sail across Bass Straight (ah thats the little stretch of water between Australia and Tasmania), or pack itself into the boot of a car. As much as I like the big foilers, that race was pretty close for 50 million bucks versus a few thousand, and I could go and buy Kai's gear (well pretty close copies anyway) tomorrow. Really, the kite surfer is the peoples sail boat / foiler. Not that I have one, but tens of thousands on the water every weekend kind of show it is. Take it on the plane, sail 400 miles across a bay in Brazil, sail in waves, on a lake, , fly a hundred feet, whatever. But I still love foilers.

#8 sailingkid

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:42 AM

I'd be happy with a foiling A as a singlehander, light, fantastic boat made even more amazing when you put foils under them, easy to sail, fantastic people to race against and well established class racing to sail in. No point segregating a growing class by making some offspring foiler.



#9 ita 16

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:53 AM

I do not think that the class A has had a great increase of competitors with new boats this year, I think there is a big drop, you might ask to ISAF how many  adhesives have sold this year and to those who have been given. is pssibile do this?



#10 piv

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:52 PM

How big, 16 to 18 foot long<br />How wide 7'6" (to trail easily)<br />Wing sail.<br />Cost $40k.<br />Cat.<br />Sounds like an A with foils.

#11 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:00 PM

Ok now lets see Oracle sail across Bass Straight (ah thats the little stretch of water between Australia and Tasmania), or pack itself into the boot of a car. As much as I like the big foilers, that race was pretty close for 50 million bucks versus a few thousand, and I could go and buy Kai's gear (well pretty close copies anyway) tomorrow. Really, the kite surfer is the peoples sail boat / foiler. Not that I have one, but tens of thousands on the water every weekend kind of show it is. Take it on the plane, sail 400 miles across a bay in Brazil, sail in waves, on a lake, , fly a hundred feet, whatever. But I still love foilers.

Well this is the point.  For foils to work you need rather large power/weight ratios. And the easiest way to get those is with a kite and a board.  But it turns out that a board itself is efficient enough that foils only add unnecessary complications to the board - hence why the speed kiters are all running on essentially water-skis.

 

The reason to foil a cat is because

  • your hull and rig dimensions are limited by class rules so foiling is faster relative to others in your class

  • you lack the physical conditioning to deal with a kiteboard.

 

 

if its raw speed you want - go for the kite.  if its the stability you need then you really need to just go with the cat.



#12 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:32 PM

Tilting trailers increase the expense of the trailer and reduce the ability for a single person to load them so that's almost a show stopper.

 

12' foiling Trimaran is silly.  Its a Moth with training wheels.  And a dinghy hull shaped vaka is just added weight and drag for a foiler.  On the big scale, ocean going racing tri's are popular because they offer both the space for crew lodging as well as a load concentration platform while allowing the primary immersed hull to be the idea 21:1 length to beam ratio,  No such advantage accrues to the diinghy, where instead you are just paying the price of more weight and hence stronger amas and hence yet even more weight.

 

Nor is there any difference in sail area power or righting moment that you get from a tri vs. a cat.  Basically it makes very little sense to have much in the way of any hulls for foilers anyway  because the hulls are only in the water during non-foiling (assuming a dedicated foiler).  The Windrider and Hobie Rave pretty much get it right - rotomolded hulls that you could replace with heavy duty industrial shrink wrap if it weren't more expensive to build that way, a cross member frame like Bethwaite's  design dihedral foils and a kite.

 

And so what?  not much fun as a daysailor, not raceable, not beachable and competes in the marketplace with jetskis, which are easier to operate and trailer.



#13 TheFlash

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:34 PM

Meh, I'm learning how to kite.  Face it - that's where the growth and $s are...



#14 Chocko

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 08:22 PM

So Michele builds a singlehanded foiler, and according to Doug, everyone wanted to foil.......

No one at my club has ordered one........

(insert cricket noise)



#15 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:12 PM

And its cheaper because Dougie says it is



#16 ita 16

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

So Michele builds a singlehanded foiler, and according to Doug, everyone wanted to foil.......
No one at my club has ordered one........
(insert cricket noise)


I am the first do not want a class A on foil.

#17 TheFlash

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:00 PM

Tilting trailers increase the expense of the trailer and reduce the ability for a single person to load them so that's almost a show stopper.

 

12' foiling Trimaran is silly.  Its a Moth with training wheels.  And a dinghy hull shaped vaka is just added weight and drag for a foiler.  On the big scale, ocean going racing tri's are popular because they offer both the space for crew lodging as well as a load concentration platform while allowing the primary immersed hull to be the idea 21:1 length to beam ratio,  No such advantage accrues to the diinghy, where instead you are just paying the price of more weight and hence stronger amas and hence yet even more weight.

 

Nor is there any difference in sail area power or righting moment that you get from a tri vs. a cat.  Basically it makes very little sense to have much in the way of any hulls for foilers anyway  because the hulls are only in the water during non-foiling (assuming a dedicated foiler).  The Windrider and Hobie Rave pretty much get it right - rotomolded hulls that you could replace with heavy duty industrial shrink wrap if it weren't more expensive to build that way, a cross member frame like Bethwaite's  design dihedral foils and a kite.

 

And so what?  not much fun as a daysailor, not raceable, not beachable and competes in the marketplace with jetskis, which are easier to operate and trailer.

 

Depends. A comparison I did between an F18 and an 18' "modern" foiling tri showed the tri capable of carrying 50 sq' more SA upwind, 121 sq.ft. more off the wind(screecher on tri) and much better SA/WS for the tri flying and not flying. But the cool thing was that the tri had an oversquare platform where the crew could sit in a cockpit and not have to run side to side while developing all the RM needed to carry more sail than an F18. The tri with very small amas can offer high performance with less athleticism. 

The new Bradfield 18' Osprey foiler tri is similar except with no cockpit and because it uses two ,independent, wand controlled main foils, the foils develop all the RM required for the boat as well as all the vertical lift. It has retractable foils and can be sailed off a non-surf beach.

---

My opinion is that a tri can offer a much easier to sail foiling platform and/or a faster top end than a cat. However, it's begining to look like-thanks to the breakthru foil technology from TNZ and the variation of this three foil system by the Hydros ,Flying Phantom and others, that a singlehanded cat may be able to be done for less money though it will be much more athletic than an equal length foiler tri designed to be easy to sail while foiling. 

 

Pictures-18 X 21' Osprey with retractable foils being beach launched and sailing:

(Pictures by DL and Sam Bradfield)

Doug - really - why the criteria to sit in one place all day long?  You can't be bothered to change sides after a maneuver?  I get it for para boats, but those would be the last ones you'd want to foil...



#18 TheFlash

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:35 PM

hmm, I've got a pretty square platform, and it's pretty obvious to me when we hike out.  It doesn't matter that more RM is available in a  square platform. It's simple physics that you'll get more RM if you move 200 pounds from centerline to 10 feet off centerline.  But feel free to develop a flying boat for the lazy.  I'll be ready to try one as soon as you have it built.



#19 Chris O

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:55 AM

Doug, Let's face it, here. At the outset, you said you'd be willing to discuss all sorts of ideas, but now that the thread has been tooling along for a bit, it looks like all you want to hype is more tired-ass crap about that three year model you've been jacking-off about on a couple of other threads.

 

For anyone who reads and has any sense of the kind of goof you are, it's only too obvious that you are an answer looking for a problem and there isn't one in sight in this decade. Nothing about that boat is new, the ideas have all been out there for quite some time. If the truly gifted folks in boating really found the idea compelling, it would have long ago been done, tested, and would now be pummeled with buyers in the time you have been wiping your ass and doing nothing.

 

Grow a pair and open your mind to all the alternate realities that exist out there, and learn how to take-in the vast sea of relevant knowledge that exists on these pages. You are simply stuck in a rut and desperate for attention. If it's this overly complex ugly little thing that has you all in a tizzy from which you can't escape, then get off the Web, finish the fucking thing and prove it works before you spew more nonsense on these pages about a scheme that is unproven.



#20 johno vegas

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:51 AM

Doug, Let's face it, here. At the outset, you said you'd be willing to discuss all sorts of ideas, but now that the thread has been tooling along for a bit, it looks like all you want to hype is more tired-ass crap about that three year model you've been jacking-off about on a couple of other threads.

 

For anyone who reads and has any sense of the kind of goof you are, it's only too obvious that you are an answer looking for a problem and there isn't one in sight in this decade. Nothing about that boat is new, the ideas have all been out there for quite some time. If the truly gifted folks in boating really found the idea compelling, it would have long ago been done, tested, and would now be pummeled with buyers in the time you have been wiping your ass and doing nothing.

 

Grow a pair and open your mind to all the alternate realities that exist out there, and learn how to take-in the vast sea of relevant knowledge that exists on these pages. You are simply stuck in a rut and desperate for attention. If it's this overly complex ugly little thing that has you all in a tizzy from which you can't escape, then get off the Web, finish the fucking thing and prove it works before you spew more nonsense on these pages about a scheme that is unproven.

nice one.  Where is the like button. 



#21 zerothehero

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:11 AM

well this is devolving about as quickly as I thought.



#22 nacraoverlord

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:24 AM

Alright, my ideal singlehander would be 16 feet long, 8 feet wide, 200 sq ft main, plus 220 sqaure foot kite. weigh 200-225 all up, and have righting moment creating incidence controlled foils. Would be pretty speedy.



#23 Chris O

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:46 AM

well this is devolving about as quickly as I thought.

 

IT devolved, Zero, right from the start when Mr. Lord suggested the parameters for the discussion. Parameters, mind you that had already been beaten to death in a couple of other threads on the very same topic. Truth is, there was never any real intention of having an open discussion of ideas and preferences. It was always going to be about that dumb, butt ugly contraption that is manifest as a scale model, at present... that still has not shown that it can be regarded as a viable foiling boat. You can see the progression in each and every post as the discussion from Lord narrows each time he posts until its that dead-on-arrival thread stupidity that will cover the same lame crap all over again. The boy simply can not control himself.

 

So, if you want to call me a devolver, then by all means, take your best shot. But your target selection is way, way off. If this really is about a wide field approach to a solo foiling boat of some type, then I suggest that Douglas drop the phony pretense that he's coming at this with an open mind. I can assure you that he is not. Soon enough, there'll be a long list of grindingly dreary numbers, lousy drawings and photos that have been posted a half hundred times on various other threads in this general area of multihulls. It's as predictable as a baseline hamburger from McDonalds. I deliberately did not post here right away just to see how the thread would take form and sure as shit, it was grossly massaged into a poorly disguised diatribe about that dumb as shoes, MPX abortion. There a hundred other ways to create a solo foiler besides that, so I invite you to place your opinion in that direction.

 

Here's my preference... Michele's, cool as hell, S.9 that foils, planes, and best of all, represents a new breed of fun, affordable beach style sport boat for a wide array of multihull enthusiasts. The biggest reason I find it so compelling? It's bone simple and not loaded-down with a ton of overly complex (read expensive) systems that are a bust to sort and a bust to buy, should they be brought to market... and an even bigger bust to maintain when they do need attention due to all the wonderfully whiz-bang aspects.

 

I would just love to see Michele's boat put forth in the marketplace when he feels it's ready. Talk about a turning point in realized design following intelligent conceptualization. This other thing of Doug's grosses me out.



#24 Cavandish

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:10 AM

I own a Rave and foil regularly in Long Beach CA in as little as 12 knots, but after three weekends in a row here of the wind peaking at ~11 knots in the afternoon, I'm starting to really yearn for some more of that light wind performance you mention. The ability to retract the foils and delatch the wands in lightwind is absolutely essential to sailing in sub 10 knot winds. However, if I could fly all 3 hulls in as low as 8 knots instead, I would be out there practically every Sunday. 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the ways in which that is accomplished result in the boat becoming much more fragile. I am not a racer, and I don't have the luxury of living near some wide open lake or bay with consistent wind and no obstacles or submerged hazards. I frequently pick up kelp, have banged into a few rocks while avoiding 100 ft ferries on the way out of the harbor entrance, and have gone from 6 knots to 0 in a couple feet when my rudder foil caught a high sandbar. If any of that had happened without sturdy aluminum foils, and *unbreakable* polyethylene hulls, the results would have been very different. 

 

I am not a Windrider PR person, and I appreciate the higher speeds of the trifoiler, the light wind capability of the moth, and the performance of the larger boats. I'm simply a Hobie cat sailor that wanted to be able to beach launch a boat that flies more than one hull, and use it in an equally abusive manner. Thus, the Rave fits me. I would absolutely love if you could get more performance out of a boat that fits that description, I just don't see it as the direction that designers are heading. I see more and more carbon fiber on everything, and that is not something that a person like me can utilize. I don't want a Formula 1 car that has to go on specially designed tracks but hits incredible speeds, I want a consumer sports car that may be faster than everything else on the road, even though it could never compete in Le Mans. 

 

Give me those ingredients, and you've got a customer. (or let's go into business together...)

 

If this was posted by a real person not named Doug Lord i'll change my "person interests" profile block to "paranoid moron" for a week. Could we please get an IP check on aisle 4?



#25 BalticBandit

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:10 AM

Depends. A comparison I did between an F18 and an 18' "modern" foiling tri showed the tri capable of carrying 50 sq' more SA upwind, 121 sq.ft. more off the wind(screecher on tri) and much better SA/WS for the tri flying and not flying

 

And that beggars physics.  Because a cat can be every bit as oversquare as the Tri but it doesn't need the extra drag and baggage of the central hull.

 

so lets say that in your tri the Vaka was 20% of the weight and the Amas each 35% of the weight and the rig and crosssbars 10%.  And it is "oversquare" (whatever the significance of that is).    so its 18' long and 24' wide.  and lets say it weighs 200kg

 

So in your trimaran RM you have  70kg immersed weight,  40kg operating at a distance of 4m (central hull) +20kg also at 4m (averaged weight of the crossbars)+70kg at 8m.  total is 800kg-m RM.

 

Now the same in a cat would be 45/45 weight distro = 10% for the rig.    So we have 45kg immmersed weight + 20kg x 4m + 90kg x 8m = 800 kg-m.

 

so the RMs remain the same.  But in reality they don't  Because the immersed shape of the Tri's amas if sufficient for the boat with the center hull, is adequate for the same configuration with no central hull.   So what you really have is a 20% lighter boat.  That in turn means the amas can be thinner and have less flotation and thus lighter yet.  So probably a 30% lighter boat.

 

that means a Cat will perform BETTER at lower wind speeds and THE SAME at higher wind speeds than the tri.

 

 

 

 

BTW Occam the reason Doug is hung up on not having to move (hence the tri centter cockpit)  is that he is not physically fit enough to move.  and hence he wants someone to build him the equivilent of a foiling tri  for the physically handicapped.



#26 Chocko

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:45 AM

So Michele builds a singlehanded foiler, and according to Doug, everyone wanted to foil.......
No one at my club has ordered one........
(insert cricket noise)


I am the first do not want a class A on foil.

You have made an awesome boat mate! make no mistake, I admire what you have done. 

I am sorry if i offended you in any way.

I hope you sell heaps of boats!!

Doug is still pushing his ideas as the ONLY ones, and he doesn't build boats :-(



#27 mad

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:47 AM

are you going to actually listen to folks, or berate those that don't agree with your ideas  build anything?

fixed



#28 ita 16

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:20 PM

 

So Michele builds a singlehanded foiler, and according to Doug, everyone wanted to foil.......
No one at my club has ordered one........
(insert cricket noise)


I am the first do not want a class A on foil.

You have made an awesome boat mate! make no mistake, I admire what you have done. 

I am sorry if i offended you in any way.

I hope you sell heaps of boats!!

Doug is still pushing his ideas as the ONLY ones, and he doesn't build boats :-(

do not worry, I'm not offended. here  we all write a lot about many subjects, it is easy to misunderstand. like many here also do not want to fly in the race, it is dangerous, expensive, complicated, all these things are not in favor of the fun. finished work I want to do the races for fun and not to stress me, this is the basis of this sport, I leave the stress to the professionals. yes, I made a small flying cat, but this is only for those who want to feel this emotion, the S.9  was born with straight boards and semi-planing hulls, but you can apply the kit fly in 5 minutes, so each one can allows choosing what he wants to do. decided about freedom.
no stress, more fun.
P.S. thanks for the positive comment on the S .9


#29 zerothehero

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:49 PM

Doug, if that boat in the vid above could hold a course and keep up on foils I would much more impressed.  Looks like it's all over the place in terms of heal, direction, and trim (sail).  Doesn't look that fun (for most people) and likely to be hell out on the race course.  A workout to be sure.  Not likely to be something I could sail with my son or let him sail alone.  It's interesting to me that something like a trifoiler is so much smoother but is looked at as a freak show in all this. They seem to have a reputation as a foiler with training wheels, at least that is what I have gotten from comments others have made about them.   ChrisO, no worries about devolving.  I often scratch my head at these threads Doug starts.  I mean it's pretty obvious to me it's going to be a shit show but they keep coming.  

 

It feels to me like there is a disconnect between people who are designing foilers and the public/market who might buy them. Hobie's Trifoiler went out of production I am guessing due to poor sales.  Foiling cats seem to be overly complex and unstable at this point, not to mention expensive.  Face it, the Moth seems to be the most refined foiler out there.  One sail, two foils, what else will make that better?  More access?  Sit in, no hiking?  Just because it can be designed and built doesn't mean it has to.  Moth's sem to be the only foiler to really catch on and they are for fairly fit, athletic sailors.



#30 BalticBandit

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:05 PM

Well the original Moth foil designs were more sailable, but were deemed to be rule breakers.  They had two lateral struts - essentially giving you a flapless ride height adjustment based on speed (since the struts angled inwards to generate dihedral lift)  That's what JB and his son did in building a foil for the 49er:  They used the aft wing track as a bolt on point for a big atwhartships foil with two angled dihedrals  and then in the bow they added a saddle mounted foil and DB that you could adjust for attitude control.

 

 

See this is what Doug doesn't get.  Once on foils, the hull config doesn't really matter.  the reason you see foils being added in multi's is because you have the dual DB issue that you can use for lateral stability that you don't have in monos.   But otherwise there is nothing special about a multi for foiling. - well other than it being wide enough to be able to carry Dougie without Dougie having to get in shape



#31 Monkey

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:24 PM

What do I want to see?
-cup holders
-a unicorn painted on the side
-Cadillac style tail fins
-built in waffle maker
-lots of foils! Like 50 of them! Foils everywhere!

#32 zerothehero

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:36 PM

cup holders is a definite plus.  I have 4 in the Wave and it's awesome!



#33 TheFlash

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:49 PM

you know, that's a great idea!  my boats going in for some work, I might need to add some cupholders to the work order.



#34 zerothehero

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 06:12 PM

we had em in the Nomad for the EC!  Sadly no beer though.



#35 Monkey

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 06:27 PM


we had em in the Nomad for the EC!  Sadly no beer though.


I don't have any on my multi, but Bill Lee will forever be my hero for building cup holders into the deck of his sleds! I'm not sure where I could put any on my little Hobie 14 Turbo. I'd need fully gimballed, self-sealing ones since the boat spends half it's time upside down. Maybe it needs foils! :D

#36 TheFlash

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 06:29 PM

Given I'm taking the boat to Watsonville for the work, I'm guessing Ron knows how to install cup holders.

 

 

Ok Doug - there's your first design criteria. Needs cup holders.



#37 zerothehero

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 04:45 AM

in the Wave they are made into the tramp, won't help if it's upside down though.



#38 piv

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:52 PM

Geez thats where I went wrong. No cupholders. Just a few cup holders and I would have sold hundreds. Note to self, cup holders on next foiler project. Cup holders required on next Moth foiler. Cup holders required on next 12m cat foiler. Cup holders required on A cat foiler. Cup holders required on sailboard. Cup holders required on kayak. Cup holder required on flap of solid wing sail. Cup holder required on V12 engine.

#39 Chris O

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 01:06 PM

...and finally, the full, but complex, understanding of the use of negative space in design reaches maturity in the world of sailing..



#40 zerothehero

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 03:08 PM

Geez thats where I went wrong. No cupholders. Just a few cup holders and I would have sold hundreds. Note to self, cup holders on next foiler project. Cup holders required on next Moth foiler. Cup holders required on next 12m cat foiler. Cup holders required on A cat foiler. Cup holders required on sailboard. Cup holders required on kayak. Cup holder required on flap of solid wing sail. Cup holder required on V12 engine.

I think I am being mocked here!  The shame!



#41 Monkey

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:31 PM


Geez thats where I went wrong. No cupholders. Just a few cup holders and I would have sold hundreds. Note to self, cup holders on next foiler project. Cup holders required on next Moth foiler. Cup holders required on next 12m cat foiler. Cup holders required on A cat foiler. Cup holders required on sailboard. Cup holders required on kayak. Cup holder required on flap of solid wing sail. Cup holder required on V12 engine.

I think I am being mocked here!  The shame!
I still want my damn unicorns painted on the side!

#42 TheFlash

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:50 PM

Pink?



#43 Monkey

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 01:08 AM


Pink?


Designer's choice. I just really think it'd help make a singlehanded, foiling multihull pop!

#44 TheFlash

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 03:45 AM

pink-unicorn-vector-9965504.jpg



#45 zerothehero

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 04:34 AM

love it!  Back to the cup holders for a sec.  I think that idea brings something to foiling that has been missing for a while, fun!  Actually most sailing.  No die hard attitude, no killer pre race workouts, win at all cost attitude, power bar eating, energy gel drinking nuttery.  Fun!  There  was  a classic article in one of the white water mags about this very thing, in a different sport.  Author decides to show up like it's 1970 or so and run some rapids with the hard core guys of today.  He's got a period kayak, period gear, and a flask, filled.  So he mingles in the parking lot, mustache and all and gets shunned as a hack.  Then he sets up and goes for it.  He's killing it till he misjudges a line (old boat vs. new) and destroys the boat.  As the hard core guys are pulling him out he is laughing, pulling on the flask, and having a good time.  And guess what?  It catches on.  The hard core power bar crowd mellows a bit (might have been pity) and they all have a great time.  Some even hit the flask.  But they (for a moment) realize it's supposed to be fun, and they haven't been having any.  So they let go and have at it.  Bring that (back) to sailing, foiling or not, and on a budget, and you have something.



#46 piv

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:51 PM

Yep, bring back the fun. How about a hard chine plywood foiler anyone can build in the backyard for a couple of hundred bucks. Either stich and glue or stringer over plywood frames, personally I prefer stringers but not everyone knows how to use a hand plane anymore. Im thinking A cat size, timber foils, aluminium mast. Only glass, no carbon. How about a new class! Does it need a flask holder rather than a cup holder? Is it the pink unicorn class? even if its not, that unicorn is a killer sail emblem.

Here is the class rules.
1. LOA 18 foot.
2. Beam 7 foot.
3. Sail area 150 ft2.
4. Allowed materials, minimum 3mm or 1/8" thick plywood, aluminium, wood, preferably cheap pine or hardware store cedar. 1 kg of fibre glass cloth, 2kg of epoxy resin, paint, stainless steel, polyester rope, glue, cable ties.
5. The boat must be fitted with at least one cup holder.
6. Courses shall be old school triangle, sausage triangle or a downwind slalom or coastal point to point.
7. Hulls shall be hard chine, with a maximum of 6 corners or chines, including the keel, gunwhales and chines.
8. There is no limit on the number or configuration of hulls or foils.
9. The boat must float in any orientation and be able to support the crew above water level at all times.
10. The boat must be able to be rigged and launched by two humans.
11. Once superceded, or old and rotten the boat must be able to be used as a bonfire.
12. Boats should be painted in bright colours. White is not allowed, unless white paint was on special.

Wow, Im all excited, think I might have to build one. Hey I might even put up a prize of a soft toy pink unicorn for the world champs. Anyone seen any unicorns on ebay?

#47 Chocko

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:34 PM

http://unicorn-cats.org.uk/



#48 BalticBandit

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:22 PM

And you think you can build foils for a couple of hundred bucks?  How?  the CF in the foils alone will cost that much.



#49 TheFlash

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:31 PM

Baltic - come on, this is the first of Doug's threads that are coming up with useful consumer needs.


So far, we've got pink unicorns and beverage holders. 

 

Since Doug's creations are as real as pink unicorns, I think we're making progress.



#50 acatguy

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:55 PM


11. Once superceded, or old and rotten the boat must be able to be used as a bonfire.

Epoxy and bonfire are not a good match  :)

I know from experience.

 

"Guy"



#51 worldinchaos

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:52 PM

I own a Rave and foil regularly in Long Beach CA in as little as 12 knots, but after three weekends in a row here of the wind peaking at ~11 knots in the afternoon, I'm starting to really yearn for some more of that light wind performance you mention. The ability to retract the foils and delatch the wands in lightwind is absolutely essential to sailing in sub 10 knot winds. However, if I could fly all 3 hulls in as low as 8 knots instead, I would be out there practically every Sunday. 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the ways in which that is accomplished result in the boat becoming much more fragile. I am not a racer, and I don't have the luxury of living near some wide open lake or bay with consistent wind and no obstacles or submerged hazards. I frequently pick up kelp, have banged into a few rocks while avoiding 100 ft ferries on the way out of the harbor entrance, and have gone from 6 knots to 0 in a couple feet when my rudder foil caught a high sandbar. If any of that had happened without sturdy aluminum foils, and *unbreakable* polyethylene hulls, the results would have been very different. 

 

I am not a Windrider PR person, and I appreciate the higher speeds of the trifoiler, the light wind capability of the moth, and the performance of the larger boats. I'm simply a Hobie cat sailor that wanted to be able to beach launch a boat that flies more than one hull, and use it in an equally abusive manner. Thus, the Rave fits me. I would absolutely love if you could get more performance out of a boat that fits that description, I just don't see it as the direction that designers are heading. I see more and more carbon fiber on everything, and that is not something that a person like me can utilize. I don't want a Formula 1 car that has to go on specially designed tracks but hits incredible speeds, I want a consumer sports car that may be faster than everything else on the road, even though it could never compete in Le Mans. 

 

Give me those ingredients, and you've got a customer. (or let's go into business together...)

 

If this was posted by a real person not named Doug Lord i'll change my "person interests" profile block to "paranoid moron" for a week. Could we please get an IP check on aisle 4?

 

I guarantee I'm a real person. At least I hope I am, otherwise my life would be very confusing. Sorry for not replying earlier. Don't follow these threads as much as I would like to. If you want to meet me in Long Beach to see that I am not this Doug Lord character, you are welcome to come foiling in the Rave. (unless I have 12 knots of wind and not 14. In that case you're staying on the shore....)

 

However, now that I have read more of the threads started similarly, with identical results, and little openness to change, I regret spending the time posting my reply here.

 

I really do wish somebody would continue to build actual durable foiling boats. Everything I see discussed in thread after thread after thread is high performance trash. I actually am one of the few sub 30-yr olds I know who could actually afford one of those high performance boats, but I have zero desire to because of their impracticality. 

 

Sigh



#52 Doug Lord

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:02 PM

Being that "Doug Lord character" myself, I'm fairly sure you aren't. And "he" deleted all "his" replies to this unfortunate excuse for a thread. I appreciated your reply and maybe they'll be a decent thread on foilers someday. Try the multihulls forum at  boatdesign .net..........  http://www.boatdesig...ums/multihulls/



#53 TheFlash

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:34 PM

Please Doug - you started yet another tired thread on the same old shit you've asked about before. 

 

From what I can tell you claim to have designed a boat that :

Foils in 5 knots

is sailable in 30

for a fat guy who can't be bothered to move off centerline

set up in 20 minutes

costs less than $10k

 

but you can't be bothered to build it.



#54 Doug Lord

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:46 PM

Please Doug - you started yet another tired thread on the same old shit you've asked about before. 

 

From what I can tell you claim to have designed a boat that :

Foils in 5 knots

is sailable in 30

for a fat guy who can't be bothered to move off centerline

set up in 20 minutes

costs less than $10k

 

but you can't be bothered to build it.

 

You don't know what you're talking about.



#55 TheFlash

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:55 PM

ok then, o wise one, what's the design brief?



#56 Doug Lord

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:04 PM

What design brief? You've been listening to the wrong people......you know: people like you that will say whatever comes to mind w/o knowing the facts-people that make things up  to suit themselves.



#57 TheFlash

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:36 PM

What design brief? You've been listening to the wrong people......you know: people like you that will say whatever comes to mind w/o knowing the facts-people that make things up  to suit themselves.

 

Wait, I thought you started this thread asking what people want?  They want beer holders and pink unicorns. What else you got?



#58 Chris O

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:29 AM

...you know: people like you that will say whatever comes to mind w/o knowing the facts-people that make things up  to suit themselves.

 

 

Yeah, kinda like this simpleton dork we all know who so totally bought-in to a seriously fake, April Fool's posting on a French boating site, just because he didn't know the facts and found it important to post a pile of blather about himself to feel so warm and fuzzy about his bullshit.

 

That kind of person, Douglas?



#59 mad

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 08:53 AM

To save me scrolling through.

 

 

Has he built anything yet??



#60 zerothehero

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:39 PM

no



#61 BalticBandit

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 05:00 PM

Well he did build some CF foils for a  model boat.  But his mold was such crap that after fairing them with bog - they look like they were made out of bog with a few threads of carbon showing.



#62 Cavandish

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 06:37 PM

 

I own a Rave and foil regularly in Long Beach CA in as little as 12 knots, but after three weekends in a row here of the wind peaking at ~11 knots in the afternoon, I'm starting to really yearn for some more of that light wind performance you mention. The ability to retract the foils and delatch the wands in lightwind is absolutely essential to sailing in sub 10 knot winds. However, if I could fly all 3 hulls in as low as 8 knots instead, I would be out there practically every Sunday. 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the ways in which that is accomplished result in the boat becoming much more fragile. I am not a racer, and I don't have the luxury of living near some wide open lake or bay with consistent wind and no obstacles or submerged hazards. I frequently pick up kelp, have banged into a few rocks while avoiding 100 ft ferries on the way out of the harbor entrance, and have gone from 6 knots to 0 in a couple feet when my rudder foil caught a high sandbar. If any of that had happened without sturdy aluminum foils, and *unbreakable* polyethylene hulls, the results would have been very different. 

 

I am not a Windrider PR person, and I appreciate the higher speeds of the trifoiler, the light wind capability of the moth, and the performance of the larger boats. I'm simply a Hobie cat sailor that wanted to be able to beach launch a boat that flies more than one hull, and use it in an equally abusive manner. Thus, the Rave fits me. I would absolutely love if you could get more performance out of a boat that fits that description, I just don't see it as the direction that designers are heading. I see more and more carbon fiber on everything, and that is not something that a person like me can utilize. I don't want a Formula 1 car that has to go on specially designed tracks but hits incredible speeds, I want a consumer sports car that may be faster than everything else on the road, even though it could never compete in Le Mans. 

 

Give me those ingredients, and you've got a customer. (or let's go into business together...)

 

If this was posted by a real person not named Doug Lord i'll change my "person interests" profile block to "paranoid moron" for a week. Could we please get an IP check on aisle 4?

 

I guarantee I'm a real person. At least I hope I am, otherwise my life would be very confusing. Sorry for not replying earlier. Don't follow these threads as much as I would like to. If you want to meet me in Long Beach to see that I am not this Doug Lord character, you are welcome to come foiling in the Rave. (unless I have 12 knots of wind and not 14. In that case you're staying on the shore....)

 

However, now that I have read more of the threads started similarly, with identical results, and little openness to change, I regret spending the time posting my reply here.

 

I really do wish somebody would continue to build actual durable foiling boats. Everything I see discussed in thread after thread after thread is high performance trash. I actually am one of the few sub 30-yr olds I know who could actually afford one of those high performance boats, but I have zero desire to because of their impracticality. 

 

Sigh

 


 

Being that "Doug Lord character" myself, I'm fairly sure you aren't. And "he" deleted all "his" replies to this unfortunate excuse for a thread. I appreciated your reply and maybe they'll be a decent thread on foilers someday. Try the multihulls forum at  boatdesign .net..........  http://www.boatdesig...ums/multihulls/

 

Not buying it.

 

Who is "he"?

 

This topic has been beaten to death over and over again. Strength, stiffness, light weight pick only two and one can have a low cost. Require all three and it won't be accessible. Perhaps someday it will, but not today with common materials. The AC boats are on the leading edge and the gap between the two designs that are racing shows how immature this field really is. 5 minutes between the two efforts by some of the best in the business in a box rule class is an eternity on a 45minute course.

 

Those who are DOING are CREATING pretty awesome boats, so get off the internet and see yours through.

 

You are only a distraction that actively drives those who are doing off this forum Doug and have been for some years.

 

+1 Cupholders!



#63 Doug Lord

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 06:38 PM

Well he did build some CF foils for a  model boat.  But his mold was such crap that after fairing them with bog - they look like they were made out of bog with a few threads of carbon showing.

 

What a trully idiotic comment!



#64 worldinchaos

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 07:23 PM

 

 

I own a Rave and foil regularly in Long Beach CA in as little as 12 knots, but after three weekends in a row here of the wind peaking at ~11 knots in the afternoon, I'm starting to really yearn for some more of that light wind performance you mention. The ability to retract the foils and delatch the wands in lightwind is absolutely essential to sailing in sub 10 knot winds. However, if I could fly all 3 hulls in as low as 8 knots instead, I would be out there practically every Sunday. 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the ways in which that is accomplished result in the boat becoming much more fragile. I am not a racer, and I don't have the luxury of living near some wide open lake or bay with consistent wind and no obstacles or submerged hazards. I frequently pick up kelp, have banged into a few rocks while avoiding 100 ft ferries on the way out of the harbor entrance, and have gone from 6 knots to 0 in a couple feet when my rudder foil caught a high sandbar. If any of that had happened without sturdy aluminum foils, and *unbreakable* polyethylene hulls, the results would have been very different. 

 

I am not a Windrider PR person, and I appreciate the higher speeds of the trifoiler, the light wind capability of the moth, and the performance of the larger boats. I'm simply a Hobie cat sailor that wanted to be able to beach launch a boat that flies more than one hull, and use it in an equally abusive manner. Thus, the Rave fits me. I would absolutely love if you could get more performance out of a boat that fits that description, I just don't see it as the direction that designers are heading. I see more and more carbon fiber on everything, and that is not something that a person like me can utilize. I don't want a Formula 1 car that has to go on specially designed tracks but hits incredible speeds, I want a consumer sports car that may be faster than everything else on the road, even though it could never compete in Le Mans. 

 

Give me those ingredients, and you've got a customer. (or let's go into business together...)

 

If this was posted by a real person not named Doug Lord i'll change my "person interests" profile block to "paranoid moron" for a week. Could we please get an IP check on aisle 4?

 

I guarantee I'm a real person. At least I hope I am, otherwise my life would be very confusing. Sorry for not replying earlier. Don't follow these threads as much as I would like to. If you want to meet me in Long Beach to see that I am not this Doug Lord character, you are welcome to come foiling in the Rave. (unless I have 12 knots of wind and not 14. In that case you're staying on the shore....)

 

However, now that I have read more of the threads started similarly, with identical results, and little openness to change, I regret spending the time posting my reply here.

 

I really do wish somebody would continue to build actual durable foiling boats. Everything I see discussed in thread after thread after thread is high performance trash. I actually am one of the few sub 30-yr olds I know who could actually afford one of those high performance boats, but I have zero desire to because of their impracticality. 

 

Sigh

 


 

>Being that "Doug Lord character" myself, I'm fairly sure you aren't. And "he" deleted all "his" replies to this unfortunate excuse for a thread. I appreciated your reply and maybe they'll be a decent thread on foilers someday. Try the multihulls forum at  boatdesign .net..........  http://www.boatdesig...ums/multihulls/

 

Not buying it.

 

Who is "he"?

 

This topic has been beaten to death over and over again. Strength, stiffness, light weight pick only two and one can have a low cost. Require all three and it won't be accessible. Perhaps someday it will, but not today with common materials. The AC boats are on the leading edge and the gap between the two designs that are racing shows how immature this field really is. 5 minutes between the two efforts by some of the best in the business in a box rule class is an eternity on a 45minute course.

 

Those who are DOING are CREATING pretty awesome boats, so get off the internet and see yours through.

 

You are only a distraction that actively drives those who are doing off this forum Doug and have been for some years.

 

+1 Cupholders!

 

 

On a serious note, I think your first comment here hits the nail on the head. Strength, stiffness, and lightweight-- pick two for cost. But the other thing that is also important is ingenuity in rigging and setup time. Multihulls (1) are difficult to find slips for, (2) really shouldn't be in a slip in general due to biogrowth going against the principle of keeping hulls clean for speed, but (3) take time for the average boater to rig. No offense, but most of the people who seem to consider these types of sailboats as a lifestyle or full-time hobby are of much older generations, and many of them grew up during the beach cat craze of the 70's or 80's, or at least had one passed on to them. This may not be universal everywhere, but it is certainly a majority of the west coast. Now if you look at my generation of 20-somethings, I know only a handful of people out of everyone that I've met who had ever sailed a multihull before I got involved. But there are many boaters. What do they want? They want powerboats that only take 5 minutes to get in and out of the water. They want monohulls that sit in rows at clubs and schools ready for cheap rental. 

 

When I tell those friends about my Hobie 14T or 16, they get excited. But when I tell them about the Rave, they are intrigued but not excited. They don't want to spend 30 minutes setting it up, nor do they want to manage the complexity. Unless designers can find a way to make the systems simple to rig and operate, these boats don't stand a chance at surviving the actual market test. This generation would never adopt them, and the product would continue to exist only in a niche and die a slow death. I don't want that to happen, because foiling is put quite simply, badass. So please, if any of you are designing boats, focus on practicality. Break out of the niche with strength, practicality, and simplicity of design, not with lightweight, complexity and an extra 10% speed gain. 

 

Now I'm not sure if anyone is still even paying attention to my real comments here because the thread has devolved, but I'm bored at work so I decided to type them out. Btw cavandish-- still waiting on the "paranoid moron" subtitle. Lol, maybe leave out the moron part though, that's a little extreme. 



#65 Doug Lord

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 08:04 PM

Chaos, thats,in part, why the new cat foilers have such great potential. Thanks to TNZ and the development work already done on the Flying Phantom, the Hydros F20c and the Hydros C CLass cat and others , practical altitude control is working w/o wands  but with the requirement to keep the windward foil up. These single main foil( a first in multifoiler design history) cats are showing great speed-much greater than catamaran foilers of the past-both in straight line speed and speed as a multiple of wind speed. The notoriously efficient Moth foiler has been matched by two of these cats off the wind. Windward foiling is still a problem for cats but a much more powerful platform is possible with an oversquare(1.3 to 1.4 X length) trimaran and an RC  tri foiled upwind 18 years ago!

I think variations and refinements of these boats are sure to make it to production cats and there may be trimaran designs that can make use of the technology as well. It's an exciting time for small foiler design with new and very cool stuff popping up all the time-and much more to come.



#66 zerothehero

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:47 AM

no

evidently I need to clarify.  Doug has built boat(s).  He has not (yet) built anything he is currently discussing.  He is building a large tri model in RC.  Happy? 



#67 Chris O

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:33 AM

When I tell those friends about my Hobie 14T or 16, they get excited. But when I tell them about the Rave, they are intrigued but not excited. They don't want to spend 30 minutes setting it up, nor do they want to manage the complexity. Unless designers can find a way to make the systems simple to rig and operate, these boats don't stand a chance at surviving the actual market test. This generation would never adopt them, and the product would continue to exist only in a niche and die a slow death. I don't want that to happen, because foiling is put quite simply, badass. So please, if any of you are designing boats, focus on practicality. Break out of the niche with strength, practicality, and simplicity of design, not with lightweight, complexity and an extra 10% speed gain. 

 

 

You are, of course, very right  about the eternal resistance of the buying public to overly complex products. The reality of this paradigm has been proven so many times in the past that I'm surprised that anyone feels like they need to do the same foolishness, just to prove it correct... once again. Yet, there is at least, one goofball who feels it necessary to race his shopping cart through the parts warehouse in order to load-up his, ah-hem, "designs" so that they simply have every conceivable base covered. It's pure and utter folly.

 

Stepping completely away from the, "let's add more crap to a small boat", mentality... the path to success in this arena lies more in the example established by Michele Petrucci with his bitchin' little cat, the S.9. Here is a boat that is flexible in its approach to fun, fast sailing in a size that allows for a much larger user audience and will likely wind-up at a retail price point that will invite users to the beach and launch ramp, rather than intimidate them.  What we don't need is a boat that A: sports a ridiculous high price due to too many expensively manufactured components and B: excessively complex systems that will be hugely difficult to master for recreational users.

 

Michele's boat can be sailed in displacement mode, as a planing cat with decidedly better performance and with a modest, easily produced and affordable set of foils, that will light it up as an entry-level, foiling sport machine. The boat is already quick, but word has it that he's about to test it with a rig from an A-Class machine just to see how she goes. I suggested he fill his pockets with rocks and was met with a smile and sly willingness to push his envelope further.

 

I say NUTS!!! to this junk pile foisted about by Mr. Lord. In a world of diminishing disposable income, serious competition from a mountain of nifty outside sources and a decided lessening of convenient storage facilities, we need a boat like Michele's and not some pig that has to sit on its side due to excessive beam, require a special trailer to haul it around and take long periods of time to rig before it ever gets wet. I agree with you, Chaos, we are not going that way in this decade and that paradigm is a dead-end design wise, as well.

 

.



#68 zerothehero

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:54 AM

When I tell those friends about my Hobie 14T or 16, they get excited. But when I tell them about the Rave, they are intrigued but not excited. They don't want to spend 30 minutes setting it up, nor do they want to manage the complexity. Unless designers can find a way to make the systems simple to rig and operate, these boats don't stand a chance at surviving the actual market test. This generation would never adopt them, and the product would continue to exist only in a niche and die a slow death. I don't want that to happen, because foiling is put quite simply, badass. So please, if any of you are designing boats, focus on practicality. Break out of the niche with strength, practicality, and simplicity of design, not with lightweight, complexity and an extra 10% speed gain. 

 

 

You are, of course, very right  about the eternal resistance of the buying public to overly complex products. The reality of this paradigm has been proven so many times in the past that I'm surprised that anyone feels like they need to do the same foolishness, just to prove it correct... once again. Yet, there is at least, one goofball who feels it necessary to race his shopping cart through the parts warehouse in order to load-up his, ah-hem, "designs" so that they simply have every conceivable base covered. It's pure and utter folly.

 

Stepping completely away from the, "let's add more crap to a small boat", mentality... the path to success in this arena lies more in the example established by Michele Petrucci with his bitchin' little cat, the S.9. Here is a boat that is flexible in its approach to fun, fast sailing in a size that allows for a much larger user audience and will likely wind-up at a retail price point that will invite users to the beach and launch ramp, rather than intimidate them.  What we don't need is a boat that A: sports a ridiculous high price due to too many expensively manufactured components and B: excessively complex systems that will be hugely difficult to master for recreational users.

 

Michele's boat can be sailed in displacement mode, as a planing cat with decidedly better performance and with a modest, easily produced and affordable set of foils, that will light it up as an entry-level, foiling sport machine. The boat is already quick, but word has it that he's about to test it with a rig from an A-Class machine just to see how she goes. I suggested he fill his pockets with rocks and was met with a smile and sly willingness to push his envelope further.

 

I say NUTS!!! to this junk pile foisted about by Mr. Lord. In a world of diminishing disposable income, serious competition from a mountain of nifty outside sources and a decided lessening of convenient storage facilities, we need a boat like Michele's and not some pig that has to sit on its side due to excessive beam, require a special trailer to haul it around and take long periods of time to rig before it ever gets wet. I agree with you, Chaos, we are not going that way in this decade and that paradigm is a dead-end design wise, as well.

 

.

Chris you are spot on about the complexity an cost issues.  In my own little world the Hobie Wave is my go to boat.  I sail that boat most of the time.  It's fast enough, super easy, fun, and my son loves it.  By comparison I have yet to sail the H 17 this summer.  It's heavy, fragile, complicated and a pain to rig compared to the Wave.  The mini 12 hasn't gotten wet in 2 years.  Complex, solo, difficult to get in and out of the water.  The sunfish have all been sold, compared to the wave they are slow and less fun.  Like I said, build me a foiling Wave and I'll bite.  I think the plan in a few years will be to let the Wave and the H17 go and e a Getaway, a bigger wave for when the boy gets a little older.



#69 Doug Lord

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:53 AM

no

evidently I need to clarify.  Doug has built boat(s).  He has not (yet) built anything he is currently discussing.  He is building a large tri model in RC.  Happy? 

 

Clarification? This is a clarification: I started this thread because I'm excitied about the potential for new developments in both small cats and tri's and wanted to hear other peoples ideas. Well, since the thread has gone to hell forget that: The "large tri model in RC" is directly related to the subject of this thread because it is my idea of what is possible using an 18' trimaran platform 22' wide and the same weight as an F18 cat. The concept of the full size version is to be faster than an F18 with two guys on trapezes with the tri sailed singlehanded or doublehanded and the crew sitting on either side of the cockpit in bucket seats-no bench, no tramps. The tri develops enough RM with the crew positioned like that to carry 50 square ft. more sail than an F18. The model is an exact scale version to test the foil system among other things.

---

Most of you probably haven't given any thought to why big foilers like Hydroptere can be oversquare but you never see small tris that are oversquare. There is a good reason for that: an oversquare small tri develops so much righting moment that it couldn't fly the main hull until there was 15+ knots of wind-and while it's trying has a real possibility of pitchpole . So what I'm doing is using the test model to develop a foil system that would allow this 18 X 22' tri to fly the main hull in very light air-say 5-6 knots. The foil system I have devised to do that uses a foil and wand on the daggerboard and a rudder foil to lift the main hull. At the same time the lee ama foil lifts as the boat is barely moving so that the boat is virtually level as it begins to accelerate. The boat sails level from right after takeoff until the main foil is neutralized. As it speeds up, the main foil begins to unload so that at a certain speed most of the lift is on the ama foil(a variation on the TNZ AC 72 foil but with greater range-similar in some respects to a surface piercing foil). At the point the mainfoil is unloaded it can be set to pull down creating more RM and allowing a positive windward(anti-leeway) force vector as the boat heels flying the main hull even higher. The fastest way to sail this boat would probably be with the mainfoil  in neutral after the load is taken by the ama foil so you would then have just two foils doing the lifting which will significantly reduce induced drag as compared to a "normal" 3 foil foiler(2 main foils, one rudder foil) . And the main foil would be "free" to act with the rudder foil to control pitch giving this trimaran far more pitch resistance than any "normal" tri, which directly translates into more power to carry sail. 

If it works, which it will, the concept can be applied to foil assist tri's or to full foilers of almost any size starting at about 12'. The system has the potential of creating far more RM(and pitch resistance) than any cat it's length as well as reducing drag below that of three foil foilers(2 main foils,one rudder foil) like the Osprey. The system has many variations and applications but the most important may be that it allows a seriously oversquare tri to fly the main hull in LIGHT AIR.

And that, of course , has potential implications for an easy to sail, easy to transport small foiler with high performance in light and heavy air with the emphasis on light air.

 

picture: the exact scale test model showing how bucket seats may be used for the crew-they slide fore and aft and fold for transport--

Attached Files



#70 Cavandish

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:35 AM

 

no

evidently I need to clarify.  Doug has built boat(s).  He has not (yet) built anything he is currently discussing.  He is building a large tri model in RC.  Happy? 

 

Clarification? This is a clarification: I started this thread because I'm excitied about the potential for new developments in both small cats and tri's and wanted to hear other peoples ideas. Well, since the thread has gone to hell forget that: The "large tri model in RC" is directly related to the subject of this thread because it is my idea of what is possible using an 18' trimaran platform 22' wide and the same weight as an F18 cat. The concept of the full size version is to be faster than an F18 with two guys on trapezes with the tri sailed singlehanded or doublehanded and the crew sitting on either side of the cockpit in bucket seats-no bench, no tramps. The tri develops enough RM with the crew positioned like that to carry 50 square ft. more sail than an F18. The model is an exact scale version to test the foil system among other things.

---

Most of you probably haven't given any thought to why big foilers like Hydroptere can be oversquare but you never see small tris that are oversquare. There is a good reason for that: an oversquare small tri develops so much righting moment that it couldn't fly the main hull until there was 15+ knots of wind-and while it's trying has a real possibility of pitchpole . So what I'm doing is using the test model to develop a foil system that would allow this 18 X 22' tri to fly the main hull in very light air-say 5-6 knots. The foil system I have devised to do that uses a foil and wand on the daggerboard and a rudder foil to lift the main hull. At the same time the lee ama foil lifts as the boat is barely moving so that the boat is virtually level as it begins to accelerate. The boat sails level from right after takeoff until the main foil is neutralized. As it speeds up, the main foil begins to unload so that at a certain speed most of the lift is on the ama foil(a variation on the TNZ AC 72 foil but with greater range-similar in some respects to a surface piercing foil). At the point the mainfoil is unloaded it can be set to pull down creating more RM and allowing a positive windward(anti-leeway) force vector as the boat heels flying the main hull even higher. The fastest way to sail this boat would probably be with the mainfoil  in neutral after the load is taken by the ama foil so you would then have just two foils doing the lifting which will significantly reduce induced drag as compared to a "normal" 3 foil foiler(2 main foils, one rudder foil) . And the main foil would be "free" to act with the rudder foil to control pitch giving this trimaran far more pitch resistance than any "normal" tri, which directly translates into more power to carry sail. 

If it works, which it will, the concept can be applied to foil assist tri's or to full foilers of almost any size starting at about 12'. The system has the potential of creating far more RM(and pitch resistance) than any cat it's length as well as reducing drag below that of three foil foilers(2 main foils,one rudder foil) like the Osprey. The system has many variations and applications but the most important may be that it allows a seriously oversquare tri to fly the main hull in LIGHT AIR.

And that, of course , has potential implications for an easy to sail, easy to transport small foiler with high performance in light and heavy air with the emphasis on light air.

 

picture: the exact scale test model showing how bucket seats may be used for the crew-they slide fore and aft and fold for transport--

 

So you ask our opinions and then post the same fucking model you have posted a hundred times before WITH OUT A CUPHOLDER OR UNICORN!!

 

Not only that but there is no way i am going to fit in one of those seats maybe a scale me might, but i am fairly positive the first thing an exact scale me would do is remove the bucket seats...WTF?



#71 BalticBandit

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:47 AM

Doug  there is nothing inherent in "oversquareness" that generates "so much righting moment".  Yes width is linked to righting moment.  But that applies to Cats as well as Tris.

 

And the reason you don't see many "oversquare" cats or tris is that if you get a decent 21:1 ama Length to Beam ratio, you don't need that much sail area to drive that hull efficiently.  And if you don't need that much SA, you don't need the RM.  and if you don't need the RM, why pay for the materials for longer akas (beams).

 

You started this thread on a presumption that somehow the modern foiling technology is "simple".  what the AC boats have is anythng but.  What a Moth has is anything but.  what a Rave has is anything but.

 

The closest to Simple we've seen was the comments from about 4 years back where a PLC was being used on a "super-moth".   After all using IR/Ultrasound ride height detection is much simpler than a wand and using an electric actutator also so.  but you aren't going to see anyone designing that because the appeal of a beach cat is that it does not need batteries to go.

 

 

So until your boat has cupholders AND a Unicorn you will be laughed at.

 

 

And more importantly Doug - you will forever be despised for what you did to the fascinating Moth discussions on SA.  The irony is that you who claim to be so excited about promoting foiling, probably did more than anyone else could possibly have done, to attenuate its expansion.



#72 Munter

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:27 AM

Bucket seats are Doug's way of ensuring a comfortable and spray free ride. Keep up Cavandish.

#73 mad

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:15 AM

no

evidently I need to clarify.  Doug has built boat(s).  He has not (yet) built anything he is currently discussing.  He is building a large tri model in RC.  Happy? 

ecstatic :wacko:



#74 TheFlash

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:14 PM

Dougie my friend, this thread had jumped the shark 3 years ago.



#75 Chris O

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:20 AM

Clarification? This is a clarification: I started this thread because I'm excitied about the potential for new developments in both small cats and tri's and wanted to hear other peoples ideas.

 

 

Actually, you started this thread because you wanted to pimp that pile of shit MPX disaster again on yet another thread. Nothing more and nothing less. You never intended to listen to anyone's ideas because you have an answer in search of a question that nobody seems compelled to ask.

 

Just how thick is that noggin of yours when people are sick of your relentless rants with no purposeful production of anything that works, or is proven?  You have succeeded in making yourself a laughing stock on these pages, so my hat is off to you for that accomplishment. After all... how many guys here actually hauled their asses up off a chair and then leapt, naked, onto a bed of nails because they need to be credible so badly that they fell like a stone for an April Fool's prank out of France?

 

Please tell us that you have something (anything) actually producing meaningful results in that one trick mind of yours, because the routine has gotten so stale that folks are now lobbing Unicorn cupholder jokes at you for down and dirty amusement. Have some grace, Dougie and shut it down before you stroke-out over another prank. It's entirely too uncomfortable to watch someone auger-in while in full view of the paying public.



#76 Waynemarlow

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:31 PM

Actually Chris I' m not sure who the most verbose is Doug or you, do you guys have too much time on you hands or what

#77 Chris O

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:44 PM

Actually Chris I' m not sure who the most verbose is Doug or you, do you guys have too much time on you hands or what

 

 

There's an addition to the topic in there somewhere?



#78 Waynemarlow

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:55 PM

Chris you need to set a watch to monitor just how long you spend composing vitriolic rubbish in an attempt to stop Doug spouting an equal amount of forum ramblings.

Now if you spent that time doing something constructive like enjoying a bit of sailing you will be soooooo much better off.

#79 zerothehero

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:16 PM

Chris you need to set a watch to monitor just how long you spend composing vitriolic rubbish in an attempt to stop Doug spouting an equal amount of forum ramblings.

Now if you spent that time doing something constructive like enjoying a bit of sailing you will be soooooo much better off.

very true



#80 Chris O

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:00 PM

Thanks for the guru posturing, Wayne.

 

 

 

 

The posts take a few minutes out of my day, but nothing that keeps me from enjoying my life. How about you? How long were you at the computer?

 

How long does it take you to visit the can when you could simply shit your pants and stay connected to something constructive?  What a freak'n time waster you are.

 

You see, you get to spend your time as you please and I'm willing to bet that every moment isn't in the pursuit of something productive. I don't mind your time wasting, so why bother with mine... as you see it?



#81 Waynemarlow

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:11 PM

No problem with the sage advice Chris, your reply really would put you in the dick head category which I had previously not thought as you have on other threads shown some level of intelligence, shame that in your twisted mindset in regards anything to do with foils, that you have lowered yourself so far.

#82 Chris O

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:50 PM

You've done some reading, have you?... and that scholarly consumption has left you with a "twisted mindset about foils", has it?

 

Do some more reading. You're quite a bit astray.

 

If you want to criticize, be my guest... at least get yourself on target with some accuracy before you do it. Apparently, it needs to be said...again. I'm not against foils as devices for record setting, or racing vessels. I don't see the utility value of the genre as it would apply to cruising, or recreational, boats. There are way too many functional, as well as pragmatic, negatives attached to make them a good fit as a design solution.

 

I'll be happy to list the reasons, if you like, but a simple Google on the topic will probably get you all the info you need... if you don't already have the same opinion. Put them on a boat for racing and if the class doesn't have a problem, score them all together with non-foiling boats. Otherwise, I'd prefer to see them shown as a separate category within the class and scored appropriately.

 

Soon enough, Wayne, another device, or system, will come along to render foils null and void and you get to start all over. While the proponents are spending a huge wad of cash to enjoy the new fruits, the vast majority of the sailing world will simply go about their business without them, having a grand time being, (how'd you put it?) "soooooo much better off".

 

If time wasting is a major concern of yours, then surely, money wasting should be running a very close second.

 

.



#83 dacarls

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:16 PM

To Zero-the-Hero. don't quit us yet....



"However, now that I have read more of the threads started similarly, with identical results, and little openness to change, I regret spending the time posting my reply here.  I really do wish somebody would continue to build actual durable foiling boats. Everything I see discussed in thread after thread after thread is high performance trash. I actually am one of the few sub 30-yr olds I know who could actually afford one of those high performance boats, but I have zero desire to because of their impracticality". 

 

My Response- I am sorry that several people who post here have a dramatically exaggerated opinion of themselves, thus post utterly careless rubbish like "Hobie Rave". (Chris O put a sock in it, please).  

Now- to REALITY!  I personally owned and sailed one of the 2 Bradfield Rave foilers that were adapted with joysticks. It was fun, but I found it to be over-heavy, over-designed, a nuisance to move and get in the water.  One cannot sail a Rave without being in the cockpit to steer with rudder pedals, so the over-critical who post here are as ignorant as they sound.

Remember the Rave was designed before epoxy/carbon became available. I could not figure a practical way to improve my Rave re weight, thus sold it.  If anyone thinks the Rave was over engineered, you should have seen the Rave-foil modified Hobie 16 from Bradfield;  500 pounds PLUS 2 male crew- I sailed that too.

 

<- Back to the subject, "Foiling Singlehander"- hopefully we have someone left. See the little thumbnail of my $1000 wooden stitch and glue A-cat (1972 Cal Fuller Catnip) hydrofoiling singlehanded at 18-20 knots on the St. Johns River in Jacksonville (2001).  That is me and I have MANY witnesses and lots of pictures.   



#84 Chris O

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:53 PM

"...Remember the Rave was designed before epoxy/carbon became available..." Where in the world did you invent that trash idea?

The Rave was developed by Wilderness Systems/Confluence Watersports', Andy Zimmerman, when he went to Dr. Sam and asked if a boat on foils could be produced that would be rotomoldable and therefore, fit a price point expression. It had nothing at all to do with carbon not being on the planet (which it was and was being used quite a bit in the kayak industry at the time, from which Windrider emerged) Get a clue and put a sock in your own orifice, Dave.

Fer Chrissakes. Dave, at least get a grip on the accuracy function within the discussion before you start lecturing folks. Right now, you've lost all cred with that way lame "...Remember the Rave was designed before epoxy/carbon became available." comment. Learn some history of the composites industry and specifically, learn about the origins of the boat about which you want to make comments.

Maybe you can read some of this article and fill some of the carbon fiber stupid gaps you have in your intellect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(fiber)

#85 zerothehero

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:45 AM

To Zero-the-Hero. don't quit us yet....



"However, now that I have read more of the threads started similarly, with identical results, and little openness to change, I regret spending the time posting my reply here.  I really do wish somebody would continue to build actual durable foiling boats. Everything I see discussed in thread after thread after thread is high performance trash. I actually am one of the few sub 30-yr olds I know who could actually afford one of those high performance boats, but I have zero desire to because of their impracticality". 

 

My Response- I am sorry that several people who post here have a dramatically exaggerated opinion of themselves, thus post utterly careless rubbish like "Hobie Rave". (Chris O put a sock in it, please).  

Now- to REALITY!  I personally owned and sailed one of the 2 Bradfield Rave foilers that were adapted with joysticks. It was fun, but I found it to be over-heavy, over-designed, a nuisance to move and get in the water.  One cannot sail a Rave without being in the cockpit to steer with rudder pedals, so the over-critical who post here are as ignorant as they sound.

Remember the Rave was designed before epoxy/carbon became available. I could not figure a practical way to improve my Rave re weight, thus sold it.  If anyone thinks the Rave was over engineered, you should have seen the Rave-foil modified Hobie 16 from Bradfield;  500 pounds PLUS 2 male crew- I sailed that too.

 

<- Back to the subject, "Foiling Singlehander"- hopefully we have someone left. See the little thumbnail of my $1000 wooden stitch and glue A-cat (1972 Cal Fuller Catnip) hydrofoiling singlehanded at 18-20 knots on the St. Johns River in Jacksonville (2001).  That is me and I have MANY witnesses and lots of pictures.   

I haven't quit yet.  Did I write any of the above?  I don't think I did.  I found out my cup holders on the Wave are ripping out.  Much sadness! :(



#86 zerothehero

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:52 AM

"...Remember the Rave was designed before epoxy/carbon became available..." Where in the world did you invent that trash idea?

The Rave was developed by Wilderness Systems/Confluence Watersports', Andy Zimmerman, when he went to Dr. Sam and asked if a boat on foils could be produced that would be rotomoldable and therefore, fit a price point expression. It had nothing at all to do with carbon not being on the planet (which it was and was being used quite a bit in the kayak industry at the time, from which Windrider emerged) Get a clue and put a sock in your own orifice, Dave.

Fer Chrissakes. Dave, at least get a grip on the accuracy function within the discussion before you start lecturing folks. Right now, you've lost all cred with that way lame "...Remember the Rave was designed before epoxy/carbon became available." comment. Learn some history of the composites industry and specifically, learn about the origins of the boat about which you want to make comments.

Maybe you can read some of this article and fill some of the carbon fiber stupid gaps you have in your intellect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(fiber)

Man you have a hair trigger don't you!  Pow, and ChrisO goes into orbit!  



#87 Chris O

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:25 AM


Not a hair trigger, Zero, just aligning the stars correctly. The boy uses quotes such as this one,

"...dramatically exaggerated opinion of themselves, thus post utterly careless rubbish like "Hobie Rave"."

to castigate over a typo. Then goes on to drop seriously incorrect commentary in order to make a point that doesn't exist. So, for you, it's OK to post false information, but to put it straight amounts to a hair trigger, does it?

Seems to me that you should be dumping on da for his hair trigger. Then if you have a point to make after that, by all means go after me for putting the record correct.

#88 lesburn1

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 02:40 PM

Without "hair triggers" and oversharers this place would dry up and wither.



#89 zerothehero

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 02:52 PM

Not a hair trigger, Zero, just aligning the stars correctly. The boy uses quotes such as this one,

"...dramatically exaggerated opinion of themselves, thus post utterly careless rubbish like "Hobie Rave"."

to castigate over a typo. Then goes on to drop seriously incorrect commentary in order to make a point that doesn't exist. So, for you, it's OK to post false information, but to put it straight amounts to a hair trigger, does it?

Seems to me that you should be dumping on da for his hair trigger. Then if you have a point to make after that, by all means go after me for putting the record correct.

false info on SA?  Who knew?



#90 ita 16

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 10:41 AM

we are in the final phase of the project S.9, still one month of tests to understand the behavior of the boat in different conditions of wind and wave, has already started the production of the final foil, we think the final boat will be ready in 2 months.

http://www.youtube.c...A&feature=share



#91 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:42 AM

we are in the final phase of the project S.9, still one month of tests to understand the behavior of the boat in different conditions of wind and wave, has already started the production of the final foil, we think the final boat will be ready in 2 months.

http://www.youtube.c...A&feature=share

 

Looks pretty good. Can you explain how your foil is able to control altitude?



#92 ita 16

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:00 PM

we are in the final phase of the project S.9, still one month of tests to understand the behavior of the boat in different conditions of wind and wave, has already started the production of the final foil, we think the final boat will be ready in 2 months.

http://www.youtube.c...A&feature=share

 

Looks pretty good. Can you explain how your foil is able to control altitude?

this movie has been done on the first day of testing, wind 6-9 knots, a little wave, I had a foil without control system that I unbalanced attitude, and a foil with the new system (like the moth), but it was very badly adjusted, the second day the flight was very regular 300 m without touching water, very easy. I still have to work hard to understand the right settings of the automatic system. in a month I will have the final foil



#93 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:19 PM

You're doing very interesting work! So, you're using a wand for altitude control(like a Moth)?



#94 ita 16

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:28 PM

yesss



#95 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:07 PM

ITA, not sure if you've seen this or not-it is an analysis of a 4 foil Bradfield-type foiler(Rocker) compared to othe C Class cats-thought you might be interested if you haven't already seen it:

 

whups: the file was too big to upload. If you're interested, send me an e-mail(see my profile) and I'll send it to you. It's an analysis of C Class boats and wings by Steve Killing, designer of the Canadian C Class boats.



#96 ita 16

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:27 PM

ITA, not sure if you've seen this or not-it is an analysis of a 4 foil Bradfield-type foiler(Rocker) compared to othe C Class cats-thought you might be interested if you haven't already seen it:

 

whups: the file was too big to upload. If you're interested, send me an e-mail(see my profile) and I'll send it to you. It's an analysis of C Class boats and wings by Steve Killing, designer of the Canadian C Class boats.

I thank you for your kindness, I think I will continue on my way,
  2 years ago I forced myself to a rule: do not know or analyze the work of others, I decided to stay pure and follow what I had in mind, and this has allowed me to reach the goal. if I followed the trends I lose time to analyze and copy the America's Cup boats and in my case it was not useful.


#97 Chris O

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:48 PM

And I say... your efforts have yielded a stunning result, Michele. It's truly wonderful to see a boat with this much quality of thought, aimed at a market where more, everyday, kinds of folks can enjoy a beautiful experience.

 

It's a lesson lost on several folks on these pages, but the market will embrace the work and the result you have achieved.



#98 samc99us

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:35 PM

Congrats Michele, results look promising!



#99 ita 16

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:39 AM

thanks Chris, thank you Sam, positive comments inspire me to keep going.



#100 ita 16

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 12:38 PM

http://www.a-cat.org/?q=node%2F274

are you ready? maybe we will see here the class A flying!!






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