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Is the J24 class in a death spiral?


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#1 J24_guy

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:41 PM

The J24 class has been on a slow downward trajectory for years, but this year it really seems to have fallen off a cliff.  Regattas are half the size they used to be, or else I'm going mad.  The Really Good Guys are still at it, but so many others have cut and run. 

 

Is it the J70?  Is it the fact the the open World's was last year and people got that off their bucket list?  It seems like some really incredible boats are on the block for dirt cheap too.  Am I seeing things, or is the class really dying?  What do you guys from various parts of the world see?



#2 J29Guy

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:12 PM

I was visiting  Edge Water Yacht Club in Cleveland and  the J 22/J 24 seem to be getting edged out by the J 70.   Just a few years ago there was a nice line of J 22's and now, not so much.  I am sure this is happening everywhere.



#3 Great Red Shark

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:48 PM

"They all do that."

The J/24 had a good run, but its 35+ years old for Pete's sake !

They filled/created a great niche in the sport, but folks like newer-better-faster-easier and you can't stop them from buying what they wish. The old J/24s and J/22s will likely 'trickle down' to less intense usage and condense into regional fleets of relevance.

We used to have a good J/24 fleet here in Hawaii - 15+ boats for the State Championships, and eight boats in their own class at every event - we even sailed them inter-island (this was a Bad Idea). Then came the Melges 24s, but that fleet never topped a half-dozen and is now back to 2-3 active boats - people just can't keep up with them and in the Hawaiian breeze they really are a handful.

But the Js are gone - scattered, no more OD events, no Soling fleet, no Etchells, not even the R-19s of Pearl Harbor anymore. Heck the WYC wanted an OD fleet so bad they started picking up old Cal20s to refurb. GO figure.

I have to figure that in the transition to the newest boats ( Vipers, J-70, Melges20 ) that there are some great opportunities to acquire a lot of boat for a low cost - so the future of the '24 will be whatever in invested parties make of it.

Not being the #1 Gran Prix OD doesn't necessarily mean The End, you know -- but the 'Death Spiral' started a LONG time ago - like when they deleted the cockpit lockers on new boats and forbid their removal from the old ones. Balls to those guys.

#4 j24vt

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 01:31 AM

Our local fleet is growing and getting younger.  The last two boats we added are owned by guys in their 20s.



#5 BayGull

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:42 AM

100 boats at the last worlds, 60+ boats at a regional regatta like Lake Georges.
It is true that the 24 is less sexy and thrilling than a 70, but man, I got mine for less than 10k, where the new boats are Minimum 40 k!!
We see our local fleet growing every year, maybe because we are a bunch of broke guys!!!

Sealing cockpit lockers on J24 is allowed by measurement,
Cheers, Nic

#6 stinger

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 03:41 AM

Our fleet is growing!  Gas is not cheap and that is hurting a lot of classes.



#7 learningj24

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:13 PM

Our fleet is growing, having moved up from three to 6 regular participants on a Wednesday night.  Texas Circuit races have 12-16 participants.  A big drop from the 50+ of the late 80's but EVERYTHING'S changed since then. 

 

The biggest change that I see is that the owners are changing; either they're long time class members that never changed boats, former class members that are coming back to a simpler boat or kids that crewed the boats and are buying them.  With boats changing hands for less the 5 grand, more people can afford to come in and play. Travelling is down because of expense but participation is up locally due to low entry costs and quality racing.



#8 fidd

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 04:46 PM

There's a ton of them on New York Harbor due to Manhattan Sailing School. They run regular beer-can races and bigger events as well.

 

That being said, there were no J24's at the Cedar Point One Design Regatta. Vipers and J70's mostly. J30's too...



#9 Justmike

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:20 PM

As a lonely J/70 owner, the only one actively raced J/70 in the Puget Sound :( , I wish the 24 owners would move-on.  Sadly for me, but good for them, that is not happening there remains a stable fleet in the Seattle area at least on the lake.



#10 BoomerangJ

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:32 PM

Out of the 20 or so J/70's we've sold-only one has gone to a J/24 skipper. 

 

I think external factors are more the issue-such as high priced gas, no water in Lake Travis, etc.  With that said the J/24 fleet seems to have more activity this year then last year-in Texas. 

 

And a boat yard guy up in Dallas is trying to get as many cheap ones as he can to re-furb and lease/loan to build the fleet. 

 

I saw a new to the club boat on a hoist at AYC the other day.  Beautiful boat. Whoever restored it did it right. 



#11 Gouvernail

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 05:35 AM

Thanks!! It's Vicente's old red and white pig from Oklahoma turned white and shiny by Alfonso and his employer
It even has one of those Keeldude foil sets just like the ones that won Midwinters three years in a row, and dominated the Texas circuit back when there were 60 boat regattas.
The J-24 may just be the next South Coast 21!!


Note: Vicente even convinced Alfonso to Yank winch lines for a couple race days

#12 learningj24

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

Out of the 20 or so J/70's we've sold-only one has gone to a J/24 skipper. 

 

I think external factors are more the issue-such as high priced gas, no water in Lake Travis, etc.  With that said the J/24 fleet seems to have more activity this year then last year-in Texas. 

 

And a boat yard guy up in Dallas is trying to get as many cheap ones as he can to re-furb and lease/loan to build the fleet. 

 

I saw a new to the club boat on a hoist at AYC the other day.  Beautiful boat. Whoever restored it did it right. 

I thought two of Fort Worth 24's went to 70's?  Flying Circus and Katana?



#13 learningj24

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:30 PM

Thanks!! It's Vicente's old red and white pig from Oklahoma turned white and shiny by Alfonso and his employer
It even has one of those Keeldude foil sets just like the ones that won Midwinters three years in a row, and dominated the Texas circuit back when there were 60 boat regattas.
The J-24 may just be the next South Coast 21!!


Note: Vicente even convinced Alfonso to Yank winch lines for a couple race days

So when are you going to get your old boat fixed and come play with us?  Trying to put an OKC regatta together in October.



#14 Wayfarer1071

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:04 AM

"They all do that."

The J/24 had a good run, but its 35+ years old for Pete's sake !

They filled/created a great niche in the sport, but folks like newer-better-faster-easier and you can't stop them from buying what they wish. The old J/24s and J/22s will likely 'trickle down' to less intense usage and condense into regional fleets of relevance.

We used to have a good J/24 fleet here in Hawaii - 15+ boats for the State Championships, and eight boats in their own class at every event - we even sailed them inter-island (this was a Bad Idea). Then came the Melges 24s, but that fleet never topped a half-dozen and is now back to 2-3 active boats - people just can't keep up with them and in the Hawaiian breeze they really are a handful.

But the Js are gone - scattered, no more OD events, no Soling fleet, no Etchells, not even the R-19s of Pearl Harbor anymore. Heck the WYC wanted an OD fleet so bad they started picking up old Cal20s to refurb. GO figure.

I have to figure that in the transition to the newest boats ( Vipers, J-70, Melges20 ) that there are some great opportunities to acquire a lot of boat for a low cost - so the future of the '24 will be whatever in invested parties make of it.

Not being the #1 Gran Prix OD doesn't necessarily mean The End, you know -- but the 'Death Spiral' started a LONG time ago - like when they deleted the cockpit lockers on new boats and forbid their removal from the old ones. Balls to those guys.

Great Red Shark is definitely not wrong. I would add the venerable J-24 is aging gracefully. Like other OD classes there will always be a dedicated cadre of folks who love the boat for what it is: a 30+ year old design.  For those of us mere mortals who don't have the bucks to buy the latest and greatest, I can tell you an old J-24 makes a wonderful all around boat suitable for racing, day sailing, and the odd overnight here and there - just as exactly what the designer intended. Don't write it boat off just yet, there are a few more decades of life in that class.



#15 Blownout

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:45 PM

The J24 class has been on a slow downward trajectory for years, but this year it really seems to have fallen off a cliff.  Regattas are half the size they used to be, or else I'm going mad.  The Really Good Guys are still at it, but so many others have cut and run. 

 

Is it the J70?  Is it the fact the the open World's was last year and people got that off their bucket list?  It seems like some really incredible boats are on the block for dirt cheap too.  Am I seeing things, or is the class really dying?  What do you guys from various parts of the world see?

 

what are you talking about.  your own fleet is growing.



#16 TQA

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:10 PM

There are a few out here in the Windward Leeward islands. often linked to island sailing schools and the young sailors progress through from Oppies?Toros etc to the J 24. It is clear that some of the boats are pretty tired but they still give local kids a chance to get into racing.

 

And yes most do get sailed from island to island.for the regattas.



#17 ticktock

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:56 PM

Marblehead plans to restart the J24 Line on Saturday next year.  The J70 went from zero in 2012 to twelve+ in 2013... wow!



#18 Running on Empty

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:39 PM

Thanks!! It's Vicente's old red and white pig from Oklahoma turned white and shiny by Alfonso and his employer
It even has one of those Keeldude foil sets just like the ones that won Midwinters three years in a row, and dominated the Texas circuit back when there were 60 boat regattas.
The J-24 may just be the next South Coast 21!!


Note: Vicente even convinced Alfonso to Yank winch lines for a couple race days

 

i know someone that needs a new deck and bottom job. Maybe they should get you to do it. I heard they pay in compliments though. They might let you put a big shop logo down the side, maybe.

 

J-24's are awesome 35yr old boats. They take a certain type of crazy to enjoy. The local fleet here is growing due to a few people's hard work. It isn't easy convincing people to restore an old boat and then find 5 people to race every weekend. That seems like a major selling point for other new boats is that they are getting simpler to sail with fewer people. My 24 needs a lot of TLC and finding time to restore an old boat when you are focused on career and family is difficult. You can spend a chunk of money to have someone restore it for you knowing that you will have another major issue occur in the not too distant future. My boat has been massively restored 3 times in 34 years and should have been done again 5 years ago or so. 

 

You might have the same issues with a new boat (ie having to restore it often) but I would hope new construction techniques would make this not the case. Either way, people seem to gravitate toward new shiny things and pass on their older design boats. If you are lucky to be located in an area where people are actively bringing in boats to build the fleet it makes more sense to restore. If you live in an area that is decaying then it makes sense the decay will happen faster as people gravitate toward newer boats.

 

TL;DR

J-24 fleet health is regional and varies due to many factors as it has for years, like many other types of boats. They are an asshole of a boat, I like asshole boats.



#19 pin head

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 01:54 PM

The J24 class is the Energizer Bunny



#20 Gouvernail

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:09 PM

Curtis Whumped running on empty again.

But...

About those refurbs...

Refurbishing an old J-24 to be good as new costs a hell of a lot less than buying anything else new.

After we finish Whore Haze deck we should have a better idea whether it is worth my time to do Psycho

#21 bottlerocket

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:33 PM

J/24s have the best price point for young sailors or newbs with limited budget wanting to start up a campaign.    They are great PHRF boats and obviously great OD boats.    You can buy one for $5K and fix it up for another $5K and still be way better off price-wise versus other Jboats or other boats in general.    I think their staying power will stay strong for as long as limited budget sailors that want a good sailing boat exist.    Which is a long time.   

 

It is not the boat for me, but I see its value.



#22 entropy

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:37 PM

If this is the death spiral of the 24 class, it's still better than the heyday of 90% of one-design classes.  :)



#23 Christian

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:24 PM

I don't think anybody in their right mind would suggest that J 24's have ever been a GP boat - sure a reasonable size class - but GP?

"They all do that."

The J/24 had a good run, but its 35+ years old for Pete's sake !

They filled/created a great niche in the sport, but folks like newer-better-faster-easier and you can't stop them from buying what they wish. The old J/24s and J/22s will likely 'trickle down' to less intense usage and condense into regional fleets of relevance.

We used to have a good J/24 fleet here in Hawaii - 15+ boats for the State Championships, and eight boats in their own class at every event - we even sailed them inter-island (this was a Bad Idea). Then came the Melges 24s, but that fleet never topped a half-dozen and is now back to 2-3 active boats - people just can't keep up with them and in the Hawaiian breeze they really are a handful.

But the Js are gone - scattered, no more OD events, no Soling fleet, no Etchells, not even the R-19s of Pearl Harbor anymore. Heck the WYC wanted an OD fleet so bad they started picking up old Cal20s to refurb. GO figure.

I have to figure that in the transition to the newest boats ( Vipers, J-70, Melges20 ) that there are some great opportunities to acquire a lot of boat for a low cost - so the future of the '24 will be whatever in invested parties make of it.

Not being the #1 Gran Prix OD doesn't necessarily mean The End, you know -- but the 'Death Spiral' started a LONG time ago - like when they deleted the cockpit lockers on new boats and forbid their removal from the old ones. Balls to those guys.



#24 Gouvernail

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:28 PM

Christian,

Either you are young and ignorant or simply ignorant. In the 1980s the J-24 game was THE worldwide racing game with tougher competition than any other class period.
Sometime around 1994 that ceased to be true but whoever managed to hold the J-24 world championship during that glorious ride could legitimately claim to be the best team of five sailors on the planet.

Then the money moved elsewhere.

#25 ssi

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:42 PM

They all are holding out for J-71, which is apparently much faster and user friendly than J70, J88 and J111 combined!

 

Me?  I am saving my pennies for J72.5 (deep keel inboard masthead version) - that's going to be a true World Class.



#26 Gouvernail

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 03:36 PM

The racing game and the open market don't go well together.
While some of us would eagerly sail in any fleet of identical toys and don't see much point is trying to race with dissimilar toys, others want to sail their favorite toy while also racing.
Then there is the desire to build the best most profitable toys as opposed to the least expensive identical toys .....

Then there are compsnies like J-boats whose business is developing new toys and putting those toys in production.


Good news??? There are over 113 boats detract scheduled to sail the Thistle nationals.
Thistles are simply little J-22s or J-70s that cost a lot less to build and maintain.

#27 learningj24

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 12:49 AM

The racing game and the open market don't go well together.
While some of us would eagerly sail in any fleet of identical toys and don't see much point is trying to race with dissimilar toys, others want to sail their favorite toy while also racing.
Then there is the desire to build the best most profitable toys as opposed to the least expensive identical toys .....

Then there are compsnies like J-boats whose business is developing new toys and putting those toys in production.


Good news??? There are over 113 boats detract scheduled to sail the Thistle nationals.
Thistles are simply little J-22s or J-70s that cost a lot less to build and maintain.

The 24 fits my sailing too well; enough room to train newbies and cheap enough for a teacher to run.  You'd have to beat me with a dog chain to get me back on a Flying Scot; THAT would drive me to Portsmouth.  Of course, blasting a 50 through a fleet of Scots is entertaining...



#28 Christian

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:18 AM

Whatever you say..................

Christian,

Either you are young and ignorant or simply ignorant. In the 1980s the J-24 game was THE worldwide racing game with tougher competition than any other class period.
Sometime around 1994 that ceased to be true but whoever managed to hold the J-24 world championship during that glorious ride could legitimately claim to be the best team of five sailors on the planet.

Then the money moved elsewhere.



#29 atefooterz

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:25 AM

admits 2B young and dumb..................

Christian,

Either you are young and ignorant or simply ignorant. In the 1980s the J-24 game was THE worldwide racing game with tougher competition than any other class period.
Sometime around 1994 that ceased to be true but whoever managed to hold the J-24 world championship during that glorious ride could legitimately claim to be the best team of five sailors on the planet.

Then the money moved elsewhere.

The money and Teams seemed to move to the Mumm 30 Worlds, during the mid 1990s then onto the Far 40 Worlds ?



#30 Gouvernail

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:41 AM

Yeah. the prices went too high the numbers and fleet size and pure wonderfulness of the game has never rivaled the j-24 heyday

There is absolutely nothing wrong with lining up in a fleet of million dollar boats and I would certainly do it if I could

But

The very best pure contest of skills happens in any sport when access is granted to virtually everyone willing to develop the skills.

In my perfect world yacht clubs would own fleets of a hundred or three hundred boats and the sailors would come play in a manner more like a bowling league .

The Saturday racing would be the hundred top qualifiers from all the other day's leagues, past champions, and maybe last year's top 20% from the Saturday series

With 200 boats on the line every weekend and most weeknights, the competition would be fantastic for anyone shoppers to play the racing game
There round be brilliance at the front and plenty of newbies and geezers battling to avoid dfl .... While bring near ten other boats at all times

Technology might well stagnate but:

1. The game would be fabulous
2. We play with find powered boats!!! The point is to do without a huge amount of readily available technology and move our toys around courses using only human skill. Technology Is expensive and not really all that welcome anyway. ..

#31 X24R

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 05:10 AM

If this is the death spiral of the 24 class, it's still better than the heyday of 90% of one-design classes.   :)

+1



#32 Gouvernail

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:33 AM

Precisely... There are lots of sailors having fun in J-24s and lots of folks who get their jollies bashing the J-24

Around here folks race J-24, J-22, Southcoast 21, ,Catalina 22, J-89, and Ensigns

it seems to me each of the fleets has about the same amount of fun

Good for them!!!

#33 Varan

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:47 PM

Precisely... There are lots of sailors having fun in J-24s and lots of folks who get their jollies bashing the J-24
Around here folks race J-24, J-22, Southcoast 21, ,Catalina 22, J-89, and Ensigns
it seems to me each of the fleets has about the same amount of fun
Good for them!!!

J-89? Bet you meant J-80. J-24s are about the only boat with decent one design fleets (that race) in the NW (USA), except for the Seattle Melges fleet. Even though I love to hate them, I still race the J-24 and will continue to until some other boat establishes a bigger, better fleet. Lots of boats have tried (J-80, J-70, U20, Viper), but none have succeeded in upstaging the lowly J-24. If this is their death spiral, the poor J-24 must have ended up in boat heaven. Our local fleet is still growing and becoming more competitive. Some are upgrading boats while keeping their old ones in the fleet. More are traveling to regional events. It just keeps getting better and better. Who would have thought that the J-24 would still be going strong after all these years? Who needs afterburners when you have an afterlife?

#34 DUBLIN-13

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:05 PM

We had a decent j24 fleet in dublin in the 90 but that died off in favour of bigger boats and other one designs. Fleet building back up cause worlds are on here this year but wouldnt be surprised if the fleet dies off over the next few years. Seem to come and go in cycles here

#35 X24R

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:39 AM

Precisely... There are lots of sailors having fun in J-24s and lots of folks who get their jollies bashing the J-24
Around here folks race J-24, J-22, Southcoast 21, ,Catalina 22, J-89, and Ensigns
it seems to me each of the fleets has about the same amount of fun
Good for them!!!

J-89? Bet you meant J-80. J-24s are about the only boat with decent one design fleets (that race) in the NW (USA), except for the Seattle Melges fleet. Even though I love to hate them, I still race the J-24 and will continue to until some other boat establishes a bigger, better fleet. Lots of boats have tried (J-80, J-70, U20, Viper), but none have succeeded in upstaging the lowly J-24. If this is their death spiral, the poor J-24 must have ended up in boat heaven. Our local fleet is still growing and becoming more competitive. Some are upgrading boats while keeping their old ones in the fleet. More are traveling to regional events. It just keeps getting better and better. Who would have thought that the J-24 would still be going strong after all these years? Who needs afterburners when you have an afterlife?

I had one for years, sold it, sailed on one for years prior to owning one. and now still sailing on a 24 --- some of the best racing i've ever had -- as wrong as these boats are, they changed sailing.  J24s give most PHRF rating boards something to anchor on.



#36 BayGull

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:20 AM

As J24 is not in a death spiral, come and race in Canada !!!!

 

http://j24canadians2013.wordpress.com/

 

:D  :D  :D

 

I had to post it here!!! 



#37 J24Soup

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:02 AM

The J24 dream of the 90's is alive and well in Portlandia.  Affordable boat that makes sense to race in a limited space venue.    



#38 kmcfast

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:20 AM

Do a IC 24 sail plan, 105% no hollow jibs with battens, Add a 1" shackle in forestay and a big roach main with RPS backstay flicker,sail with 3 or 4 600# max. OD spinnaker. Rockin wit the oldies....  . 



#39 USA190520

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:19 PM

Or leave it alone and enjoy the boat for what it is.

#40 schoonerman

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:33 PM

Is it possible for a class with over 100 fleets and 5300 boats to be in a death spiral? If so, it'll be a 30 year spiral :-D

#41 Gouvernail

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 10:44 PM

The 5300 boat fleet has probably dwindled to well under 4000 currently serviceable  and recoverable  toys and I am being optimistic.

 

The "grand prix" feel of the eighties is gone and has been replaced by a "fleet of potentially wonderful toys you can race that you can buy for next to nothing."

 

The boat will NOT attract those who would must like to go to the store and buy a playtoy. The fleet already attracts the same guys who would go to a junkyard and find a 1955 chevy to restore and some who really like fixing toys more than racing them.

 

the fleet will no longer attract the folks who want to race in the hottest fleet with the big name teams so they can test their skills agains the best.

 

Many of the  boats are having severe rot problems and will soon be unserviceable but odds are some will make their fiftieth birthday while still sailing competitively.

 

The new J-24 game is a fine one already played all over the world in lots of old designs whose original builders and designers long since abandoned them.  There will be plenty of clubs where J-24s are the best local fleet and where some enthusiastic locals regularly go find a cherry boat somewhere and bring it in either to use or market to whoever shows up and shows interest in sailing..

 

Nobody is building the 200 to 300 new Boats we would need every year to sustain the fleet as a super north american class but ...

 

113 Thistles at Sandusky this month shows us old boats whose primary building and retail success came a long time ago can still assemble for a helluva game

 

The J-24 either needs an enthusiastic new builder who can manage to market it well enough to sell those 200 to 300 boats or ...

 

we need a different  new toy to replace what we had in the eighties

 

 

Personally?? I think the sailing community needs a boat that does what a J-24 did with a trailer and sails for $10,000.  Somebody needs to get mighty creative.

 

I will gladly sail my old J-24 while I wait.



#42 Havoc

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:04 AM

Hasn't sailing in general been in a death spiral since the 80's?  The J/24 class is still around and parts are readily available.  It's the Spec Miata of boats! 



#43 sail611

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:49 PM

I love our (friend and I partnered up for one) J24 and we have a blast with it.  Sure, it would be cool to get into a bigger boat, but almost any of them that are available are more expensive to own, need more crew, and wouldn't really be any more fun.  In my opinion, I would say that bang for buck, the J24 is the best deal in sailing, and I think we should all encourage the young aspiring skippers to look into the boat.  It is affordable, fun, will build skills, and everyone I have met in the class are all good people.  



#44 jrreastern

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:49 PM

New to the j-24. A very exciting(yes 35 yrs young) versitile boat for those of us with a slim budget. We are gaining interest by sailing with the blade and spinniker but no genoa. This cut the need for 5 crew and saves us the cost of the most expensive sail. Sailing one design, using the blade does not matter. Hopefully this will catch on and grow participation. The IC 24's got it right.



#45 lucky1954

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:43 PM

Think.........more J24 in China ??



#46 oldsailor

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:00 PM

Im trying to get a handle on this J24 business.

My friend can no longer sail and has to part with his J24.

I have offered to move it for him ---but don't know what the market for it is like.

It is on a mooring in Pittwater, behind Scotland Island and the mooring goes with the boat. At present it needs a good bottom clean, and bilge water pumping out. Its suit of sails is good, and there is a lot of equipment.  I have no idea what it's market value would be.

Can any kind sailor advise me on this.   



#47 redmond

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:04 PM

The health of a fleet is somewhat boat dependent and we have certainly seen some sailors move on. In Seattle, that has been minimal however. Every year, we have a couple of people leave the fleet and fortunately have seen an equal number of people join the fleet. Most of those have family obligations and stop actively sailing because of time constraints etc.. Many of our fleet members have been part of the J24 fleet for 20-25 years and our level of sailing suits them fine. Our boat has three people in their mid 60s and one in his mid 70s. Only our foredeck person is in his 30s. We are clearly not as athletic as some of the other teams out there but we have a good time. The fact remains that our J24 fleet is still the only OD option where you can race 20-25 boats on weeknights on a total sailing/moorage budget of $5k-$7k. Some spend more and some spend less. We have five or six boats out there with sail numbers in the 5000 range but most boats date back to the early 80s. The newer sports boats are nice but to campaign them, you will have to spend a multiple of what we are spending in the J24 fleet. As a fleet, we are therefore not competing with other boat types but rather with available family time. Our weekend regatta participation is therefore poor but that allows people like me to commit to a big boat program for the weekends. If the fleets are properly managed, they do not have to die.



#48 Plumber

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 05:26 PM

It's a pretty resilient class. It faces the same challenges than other classes : $$$  and getting crew. I left the class a few years back because I got tired of coralling/training/coaching crews...and constantly replacing those f'ing genoas that don't last more than half a season.

 

I would consider getting back in the class if they changed the following : no more plastic genoas, max 4 crew, no crew weight limit. But this has already been discussed to death in this forum.



#49 ducky

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 07:21 PM

I think no crew weighing with 4 or less and weigh 5 or more,little larger #3 so you could be competitive in 15kts w/jib

It's a pretty resilient class. It faces the same challenges than other classes : $$$  and getting crew. I left the class a few years back because I got tired of coralling/training/coaching crews...and constantly replacing those f'ing genoas that don't last more than half a season.

 

I would consider getting back in the class if they changed the following : no more plastic genoas, max 4 crew, no crew weight limit. But this has already been discussed to death in this forum.



#50 Plumber

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 07:42 PM

I think no crew weighing with 4 or less and weigh 5 or more,little larger #3 so you could be competitive in 15kts w/jib

It's a pretty resilient class. It faces the same challenges than other classes : $$$  and getting crew. I left the class a few years back because I got tired of coralling/training/coaching crews...and constantly replacing those f'ing genoas that don't last more than half a season.

 

I would conat sider getting back in the class if they changed the following : no more plastic genoas, max 4 crew, no crew weight limit. But this has already been discussed to death in this forum.

That would solve part of the problems with the class.



#51 Gone Drinking

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:54 PM

There were 45 boats at the Nationals this past weekend and 80 expected at the Worlds in a month.  Doesn't sound like a death spiral to me.



#52 Plumber

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 05:16 PM

There were 45 boats at the Nationals this past weekend and 80 expected at the Worlds in a month.  Doesn't sound like a death spiral to me.

There's a few good years left in the class. Once J70s start hitting the second buyer market at a decent price, that will be the stress test...



#53 Gouvernail

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 12:17 AM

If the idiots who want to change the boat are kept at bay, The J-24 will settle in like Thistles and pretty much have occasional great fleets of classic wonderfully kept old toys

Another key ingredient will be the class deciding to accept boats from any builder who can make a boat to pass measurement .

It would need to be someone who could build a couple a year and be happy with the funds generated by doing so.
Kinda like Ensigns do now

#54 Hobbes802

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 11:24 PM

East coast still going pretty strong! Local club has 8 boats on the regular, the group is great and tight knit, they help each other haul and get to out of town events. Did the down east regatta a few weeks ago and we had 30 on the start line, not bad at all. If you check the nationals they have 46 boats currently. For a dead class that seems pretty good for participation!



#55 Wayfarer1071

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 11:24 AM

If the idiots who want to change the boat are kept at bay, The J-24 will settle in like Thistles and pretty much have occasional great fleets of classic wonderfully kept old toys

Another key ingredient will be the class deciding to accept boats from any builder who can make a boat to pass measurement .

It would need to be someone who could build a couple a year and be happy with the funds generated by doing so.
Kinda like Ensigns do now

 

Well said!



#56 Zaney

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 06:57 PM

Entry fees combined with travel expenses, combined with all the other fees are what's keeping me out of it.

 

Plain and simple.  

 

I don't want to spend 1000-1500 to go race



#57 Bash24

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 08:05 PM

Entry fees combined with travel expenses, combined with all the other fees are what's keeping me out of it.

 

Plain and simple.  

 

I don't want to spend 1000-1500 to go race

 

You don't have to spend that much.  We manage to campaign a J24 on a pretty tight budget.  Gas prices are falling.  You can usually find cheap or even free lodging if you are willing to ask.  The entry fees are getting a little steep, but I was glad to see a reduction in some regattas recently.

 

Gas is down.....  Get your J24 to a regatta in 2015.



#58 CharlestonJ24USA555

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 10:18 PM

I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in the J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

#59 Christian

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 07:47 AM

I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in the J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

Really?



#60 HHN92

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 01:07 PM

Saw the 24's at Di in Tampa Thursday evening. Looks like a good showing compared to the last time, 27 boats, 15 are from up north and the rest from FL. So not too bad for a 'dying' class.

 

As the PRO stated: "Welcome to the J24 Frostbite Nationals". Temps in the low 30's the first two mornings but 70's for today and Sunday.



#61 Plumber

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 04:50 PM

I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in an olympic classthe J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

There. Fixed it for you. 

J24 is a good club/beer can racer. But a stepping stone for anything else it isn't. 



#62 J/120

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 05:43 PM

 

I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in an olympic classthe J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

There. Fixed it for you. 

J24 is a good club/beer can racer. But a stepping stone for anything else it isn't. 

 

 

 

Really? I would think that the list of past major regatta champions, along with the crews on those and many other J/24's, up to the current regattas, would seem to disagree.



#63 A Boy Named Stu

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 01:59 AM


I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in the J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

Really?

Yeah, I don't recognize a single name on this list

www.j24class.org/about-the-j24/hall-of-fame/world-champions/

#64 Plumber

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 02:55 PM

 

 

I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in an olympic classthe J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

There. Fixed it for you. 

J24 is a good club/beer can racer. But a stepping stone for anything else it isn't. 

 

 

 

Really? I would think that the list of past major regatta champions, along with the crews on those and many other J/24's, up to the current regattas, would seem to disagree.

 

Mostly professional sailmakers. Has nothing to do with the J24 but rather their talent in sailing multiple types of boat. All the pros were sailing the J24 at the time because it was the dominant one design class, and they needed to sell sails. Note that the last sailor to have moved on to bigger and better things is T Hutch. And that was almost 20 years ago. The J24 had it's hay day, but that was back in the 80's and 90's. Currently it's hardly a stepping stone towards getting a ride on a TP52 or America's Cup boat. On the other hand, look at the top of the pyramid and notice how many of these sailors come from olympic programs.  



#65 rgscpat

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 03:23 PM

Is there any way to get useful numbers? For example, would the class association know how many boats compete at district/local level, and could you track the j's that are reported under Portsmouth each year, and that get certificates under PHRF? Sure, there would be duplicates and I omissions, but those numbers would be a decent health gauge.

#66 Varan

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 04:33 PM

The class's active membership list should give you a good idea of how many boats are really racing. By "really racing", I mean racing one design. Why else would you sail a J24?

#67 J/120

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 12:16 AM


 


 


I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in an olympic classthe J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

There. Fixed it for you. 
J24 is a good club/beer can racer. But a stepping stone for anything else it isn't. 
 
 
 
Really? I would think that the list of past major regatta champions, along with the crews on those and many other J/24's, up to the current regattas, would seem to disagree.
 
Mostly professional sailmakers. Has nothing to do with the J24 but rather their talent in sailing multiple types of boat. All the pros were sailing the J24 at the time because it was the dominant one design class, and they needed to sell sails. Note that the last sailor to have moved on to bigger and better things is T Hutch. And that was almost 20 years ago. The J24 had it's hay day, but that was back in the 80's and 90's. Currently it's hardly a stepping stone towards getting a ride on a TP52 or America's Cup boat. On the other hand, look at the top of the pyramid and notice how many of these sailors come from olympic programs.  

Ok... As I said, the list and their crews would probably disagree with you.

Curious, have you sailed with or against any of them, in any class? I'm sure your local fleet is better.

#68 Plumber

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 10:11 PM

 

 

 

 

I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in an olympic classthe J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

There. Fixed it for you. 
J24 is a good club/beer can racer. But a stepping stone for anything else it isn't. 
 
 
 
Really? I would think that the list of past major regatta champions, along with the crews on those and many other J/24's, up to the current regattas, would seem to disagree.
 
Mostly professional sailmakers. Has nothing to do with the J24 but rather their talent in sailing multiple types of boat. All the pros were sailing the J24 at the time because it was the dominant one design class, and they needed to sell sails. Note that the last sailor to have moved on to bigger and better things is T Hutch. And that was almost 20 years ago. The J24 had it's hay day, but that was back in the 80's and 90's. Currently it's hardly a stepping stone towards getting a ride on a TP52 or America's Cup boat. On the other hand, look at the top of the pyramid and notice how many of these sailors come from olympic programs.  

Ok... As I said, the list and their crews would probably disagree with you.

Curious, have you sailed with or against any of them, in any class? I'm sure your local fleet is better.

 

Whether you or they, disagree is not the issue. Actually it's irrelevant. If you are a champion of a class for which you have a business interest in, you cannot consider yourself very objective.  

Quick test: Name me 5 sailors from the list you are referring to after T Hutch (1998) that have a regular spot on a Volvo boat, a TP52 or the Americas. 

Cup. And yes I have sailed against them in the J24 and other classes. And no my local fleet is not better. I travel to regattas to find interesting competition. 



#69 frozenhawaiian

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 12:56 AM

"They all do that."

The J/24 had a good run, but its 35+ years old for Pete's sake !

They filled/created a great niche in the sport, but folks like newer-better-faster-easier and you can't stop them from buying what they wish. The old J/24s and J/22s will likely 'trickle down' to less intense usage and condense into regional fleets of relevance.

We used to have a good J/24 fleet here in Hawaii - 15+ boats for the State Championships, and eight boats in their own class at every event - we even sailed them inter-island (this was a Bad Idea). Then came the Melges 24s, but that fleet never topped a half-dozen and is now back to 2-3 active boats - people just can't keep up with them and in the Hawaiian breeze they really are a handful.

But the Js are gone - scattered, no more OD events, no Soling fleet, no Etchells, not even the R-19s of Pearl Harbor anymore. Heck the WYC wanted an OD fleet so bad they started picking up old Cal20s to refurb. GO figure.

I have to figure that in the transition to the newest boats ( Vipers, J-70, Melges20 ) that there are some great opportunities to acquire a lot of boat for a low cost - so the future of the '24 will be whatever in invested parties make of it.

Not being the #1 Gran Prix OD doesn't necessarily mean The End, you know -- but the 'Death Spiral' started a LONG time ago - like when they deleted the cockpit lockers on new boats and forbid their removal from the old ones. Balls to those guys.

 

isn't Bob Ale's purple J-24 the only one that reliably races in anything other than the thursday night bulkhead races. seem to me that aside from the dinghy fleets of the junior sailors one design has always been kind of a hard sell in hawaii. did WYC ever get their cal 20's fixed up?  

 

as for the J-24 class as a whole, yes it does seem to have taken a rather dramatic dive the past year or 2. I do think that the J-70 does have a lot to do with it.



#70 Bash24

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 09:24 PM

The 2015 North Americans is sold out with a waiting list over 7 months before the event.

 

Yeah, the class is dead.



#71 foredeck1916

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 10:56 PM

This argument has a few inherent flaws.  You said: 1. You asserted the J24 is not a stepping stone; 2. Excluding those with a business interest  is a self-serving mechanism designed help you win your argument, but it seems ignorant to HOW people move on to "bigger things".  3. You said "No one since T-Hutch" has moved on to "bigger and better" things from this class in 10 years.

 

1. Stepping Stone boats may include:  Lightning, Star, Thistle, Lightning, J22, J24, J70, J80, Sonars

 

They are generally small dingy-ish boats that reinforce dinghy skills and afford growth at a relatively cheap cost compared to larger boats.  They have great amateur competition, are cheap to afford, and consume a lot of sails.  Great places to learn to become a Pro sailor.

 

2. Those who are not self-made millionaires or Trustafarians have to work to stay in sailing, and many great sailors are awarded jobs in the sailing industry because they are great sailors.  They need to support themselves while moving on to bigger and better things.  So... yes, they start small in one of the boats listed above, and move on to things like the VOR (Charlie Enright), Olympic Campaigns (Andy Horton), Pan Am Games or College Coaching (John Mollicone for both) or pro sailing with other programs.  Moreover, they often return to these sort of boats whenever they can to keep their skills sharp.

 

2. Charlie Enright is the current skipper of VOR team Alvimedica.  He bought a salvaged J24 at cheap cost, was competitive regionally and nationally, later worked at North Sails, and is now a VOR skipper.    

 

In short, there are a lot of stepping stone classes, the J24 is one of them, and we have a current VOR skipper who cut his teeth in the J24, among many other boats before and since.



#72 CharlestonJ24USA555

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 01:48 PM







I completely disagree, I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people in the sport of sailing as a whole, and as well in the J24 class. Down in Charleston SC, we have a strong 10 boat fleet and we are continueing to grow, but we have 4-5 skippers that are 34 years old or less. The class has always been a transitional class. To be anything in sailing its a right of passage to compete in an olympic classthe J24 class. People come and go but these boats last for forever.

There. Fixed it for you. 
J24 is a good club/beer can racer. But a stepping stone for anything else it isn't.
Really? I would think that the list of past major regatta champions, along with the crews on those and many other J/24's, up to the current regattas, would seem to disagree.
Mostly professional sailmakers. Has nothing to do with the J24 but rather their talent in sailing multiple types of boat. All the pros were sailing the J24 at the time because it was the dominant one design class, and they needed to sell sails. Note that the last sailor to have moved on to bigger and better things is T Hutch. And that was almost 20 years ago. The J24 had it's hay day, but that was back in the 80's and 90's. Currently it's hardly a stepping stone towards getting a ride on a TP52 or America's Cup boat. On the other hand, look at the top of the pyramid and notice how many of these sailors come from olympic programs.

We all have our own opinions as to what being a professional sailor is, but landing a spot on the VOR, a TP52 or the Americas Cup doesn't all come down to skill, as much as it is who you know. There are several crew members on the VOR that have never accomplished a long distance race before. Frankly this boat is a stepping stone, as are many other classes. Saying that it isn't, is pure ignorance.

#73 Adam9066

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:18 PM

I love my j24 I'll keep it for a long time. However that being said I doubt I'll get into racing and thej24 next to mine probably won't either. Trust me when I say it has not been a lack of effort by the local fleet to try and get us to race.

#74 foredeck1916

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 03:18 AM

I love my j24 I'll keep it for a long time. However that being said I doubt I'll get into racing and thej24 next to mine probably won't either. Trust me when I say it has not been a lack of effort by the local fleet to try and get us to race.


Well don't be so scared to go crew on another person's boat and I think you would change your answer, Adam9066.




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