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The largest municipal bankruptcy in US history.


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#101 Chuck D.

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:29 AM

Most of their production facilities never were in Detroit. GM and Chrysler had headquarters there. GM's is the only 'sort of' headquarters still in Detroit, in the RenCen. Chrysler moved theirs 25 miles up I75 to Auburn Hills. Fords has always been in Dearborn. But square miles of land for new facilities are hard to find in Detroit. Square miles are not so hard to find in Tecumseh, Delta Township, Lake Orion, and on and on all over Southeast Michigan.


I always liked to drive up Van Dyke starting at 12 Mile with the square mile of the GM Tech Center to a huge Ford stamping plant to an equally monstrous something or other of Chrysler's. TRW had a massive presence somewhere in there. But still square mile after square mile of Big Three and their suppliers all around Detroit.

Not only did the big 3 move operations out of Detroit but all manner of business did as well.  2/3 of the population retreated to the suburbs.

 

They didn't so much 'move their production facilities out of Detroit' as they grew their production facilities where it made the most sense from an investment perspective.  This started around WWII, when The D became the Arsenal of Democracy.  The industrial corridor that Squirrel saliently refers to was purpose-built during the war.  A mile-wide by some 8 miles long swath of industry between Van Dyke and Mound Roads running from 8 Mile to 16 mile roads ... with some pretty impressive infrastructure (including a dedicated electrical grid that was used to quadruple US production of stainless steel during the war) and untold billions in govt and private sector investment.  

 

You can take the over-simplistic route with your nonsense about 'democrat politicians and unions' all you like.  The truth is much more complicated than you would like to acknowledge.  It is what it is ... it's important to note that while this hollowing out and decline of the central city was going on, the greatest expansion of wealth seen in human history was also going on within and just outside of the city as well-paying jobs built an impressive middle class society in suburban Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties.

 

It wasn't all sunshine and roses, though, as the 'white flight' that started in the late 50s was fueled not just by opportunities in the newly carved suburbs, but by an endemic racism that persists to a large degree to this day.

 

One interesting side-note to this is the effect of 'the great recession': the collapse of the housing market has brought a lot of opportunities for those in a position to purchase.  More integration of suburban neighborhoods has occurred in the last 6 years than in the preceding 50.  Cities that were lily white just 10 years ago are now approaching balanced demographics in terms of ethnicity.  Again, it is what it is.



#102 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:46 AM

Chuck D.: simplistic defender of mediocrity and most predictable partisan moron extraordinaire..... :rolleyes:  



#103 learningj24

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:51 AM

"'white flight' that started in the late 50s was fueled not just by opportunities in the newly carved suburbs, but by an endemic racism that persists to a large degree to this day"

 

This mirrors what I see in our city.  I teach at what was the premier high school when it was built in the 50's but as integration and the resulting flight of the middle and upper class to the suburbs kicked in, it has deteriorated into a typical inner city school.  When I first started teaching 16 years ago, there were still the kids of a few doctors, lawyers, medium sized buisness owners and professionals in the building.  Now, perhaps 1 or 2 kids out of 120 (a typical teaching load) have parents with a professional degree.  The overall level of academic performance has deteriorated to the point where what most of us would consider a "normal" kid stands out as a star.  Like Detroit, we went from 5.500 students to 1100, a lower SE population and reduced funding; what would be a successful rebuilding strategy?  The old cities and school districts have similar problems, the people with money (tax base) left so their kids would not have to go to school with "those" kids.  With the tax base went the jobs, with the jobs went home values etc.



#104 Dog

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:58 AM

 

Most of their production facilities never were in Detroit. GM and Chrysler had headquarters there. GM's is the only 'sort of' headquarters still in Detroit, in the RenCen. Chrysler moved theirs 25 miles up I75 to Auburn Hills. Fords has always been in Dearborn. But square miles of land for new facilities are hard to find in Detroit. Square miles are not so hard to find in Tecumseh, Delta Township, Lake Orion, and on and on all over Southeast Michigan.


I always liked to drive up Van Dyke starting at 12 Mile with the square mile of the GM Tech Center to a huge Ford stamping plant to an equally monstrous something or other of Chrysler's. TRW had a massive presence somewhere in there. But still square mile after square mile of Big Three and their suppliers all around Detroit.

Not only did the big 3 move operations out of Detroit but all manner of business did as well.  2/3 of the population retreated to the suburbs.

 

They didn't so much 'move their production facilities out of Detroit' as they grew their production facilities where it made the most sense from an investment perspective.  This started around WWII, when The D became the Arsenal of Democracy.  The industrial corridor that Squirrel saliently refers to was purpose-built during the war.  A mile-wide by some 8 miles long swath of industry between Van Dyke and Mound Roads running from 8 Mile to 16 mile roads ... with some pretty impressive infrastructure (including a dedicated electrical grid that was used to quadruple US production of stainless steel during the war) and untold billions in govt and private sector investment.  

 

You can take the over-simplistic route with your nonsense about 'democrat politicians and unions' all you like.  The truth is much more complicated than you would like to acknowledge.  It is what it is ... it's important to note that while this hollowing out and decline of the central city was going on, the greatest expansion of wealth seen in human history was also going on within and just outside of the city as well-paying jobs built an impressive middle class society in suburban Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties.

 

It wasn't all sunshine and roses, though, as the 'white flight' that started in the late 50s was fueled not just by opportunities in the newly carved suburbs, but by an endemic racism that persists to a large degree to this day.

 

One interesting side-note to this is the effect of 'the great recession': the collapse of the housing market has brought a lot of opportunities for those in a position to purchase.  More integration of suburban neighborhoods has occurred in the last 6 years than in the preceding 50.  Cities that were lily white just 10 years ago are now approaching balanced demographics in terms of ethnicity.  Again, it is what it is.

What’s over-simplistic to simply blame the mass exodus from Detroit and the collapse of its tax base on the troubles of the big 3. You live nearby, you know better.



#105 Dog

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 04:54 PM

Priorities……

“The Detroit City Council on Tuesday unanimously passed a resolution calling for a federal investigation to see whether civil rights charges are warranted against George Zimmerman”.

YCMTSU.

#106 d'ranger

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 06:26 PM

 

 

Most of their production facilities never were in Detroit. GM and Chrysler had headquarters there. GM's is the only 'sort of' headquarters still in Detroit, in the RenCen. Chrysler moved theirs 25 miles up I75 to Auburn Hills. Fords has always been in Dearborn. But square miles of land for new facilities are hard to find in Detroit. Square miles are not so hard to find in Tecumseh, Delta Township, Lake Orion, and on and on all over Southeast Michigan.


I always liked to drive up Van Dyke starting at 12 Mile with the square mile of the GM Tech Center to a huge Ford stamping plant to an equally monstrous something or other of Chrysler's. TRW had a massive presence somewhere in there. But still square mile after square mile of Big Three and their suppliers all around Detroit.

Not only did the big 3 move operations out of Detroit but all manner of business did as well.  2/3 of the population retreated to the suburbs.

 

They didn't so much 'move their production facilities out of Detroit' as they grew their production facilities where it made the most sense from an investment perspective.  This started around WWII, when The D became the Arsenal of Democracy.  The industrial corridor that Squirrel saliently refers to was purpose-built during the war.  A mile-wide by some 8 miles long swath of industry between Van Dyke and Mound Roads running from 8 Mile to 16 mile roads ... with some pretty impressive infrastructure (including a dedicated electrical grid that was used to quadruple US production of stainless steel during the war) and untold billions in govt and private sector investment.  

 

You can take the over-simplistic route with your nonsense about 'democrat politicians and unions' all you like.  The truth is much more complicated than you would like to acknowledge.  It is what it is ... it's important to note that while this hollowing out and decline of the central city was going on, the greatest expansion of wealth seen in human history was also going on within and just outside of the city as well-paying jobs built an impressive middle class society in suburban Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties.

 

It wasn't all sunshine and roses, though, as the 'white flight' that started in the late 50s was fueled not just by opportunities in the newly carved suburbs, but by an endemic racism that persists to a large degree to this day.

 

One interesting side-note to this is the effect of 'the great recession': the collapse of the housing market has brought a lot of opportunities for those in a position to purchase.  More integration of suburban neighborhoods has occurred in the last 6 years than in the preceding 50.  Cities that were lily white just 10 years ago are now approaching balanced demographics in terms of ethnicity.  Again, it is what it is.

What’s over-simplistic to simply blame the mass exodus from Detroit and the collapse of its tax base on the troubles of the big 3. You live nearby, you know better.

What is over simplistic is to blame everything on Democrats aka Takers. 



#107 Dog

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:09 PM

 

 

 

Most of their production facilities never were in Detroit. GM and Chrysler had headquarters there. GM's is the only 'sort of' headquarters still in Detroit, in the RenCen. Chrysler moved theirs 25 miles up I75 to Auburn Hills. Fords has always been in Dearborn. But square miles of land for new facilities are hard to find in Detroit. Square miles are not so hard to find in Tecumseh, Delta Township, Lake Orion, and on and on all over Southeast Michigan.


I always liked to drive up Van Dyke starting at 12 Mile with the square mile of the GM Tech Center to a huge Ford stamping plant to an equally monstrous something or other of Chrysler's. TRW had a massive presence somewhere in there. But still square mile after square mile of Big Three and their suppliers all around Detroit.

Not only did the big 3 move operations out of Detroit but all manner of business did as well.  2/3 of the population retreated to the suburbs.

 

They didn't so much 'move their production facilities out of Detroit' as they grew their production facilities where it made the most sense from an investment perspective.  This started around WWII, when The D became the Arsenal of Democracy.  The industrial corridor that Squirrel saliently refers to was purpose-built during the war.  A mile-wide by some 8 miles long swath of industry between Van Dyke and Mound Roads running from 8 Mile to 16 mile roads ... with some pretty impressive infrastructure (including a dedicated electrical grid that was used to quadruple US production of stainless steel during the war) and untold billions in govt and private sector investment.  

 

You can take the over-simplistic route with your nonsense about 'democrat politicians and unions' all you like.  The truth is much more complicated than you would like to acknowledge.  It is what it is ... it's important to note that while this hollowing out and decline of the central city was going on, the greatest expansion of wealth seen in human history was also going on within and just outside of the city as well-paying jobs built an impressive middle class society in suburban Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties.

 

It wasn't all sunshine and roses, though, as the 'white flight' that started in the late 50s was fueled not just by opportunities in the newly carved suburbs, but by an endemic racism that persists to a large degree to this day.

 

One interesting side-note to this is the effect of 'the great recession': the collapse of the housing market has brought a lot of opportunities for those in a position to purchase.  More integration of suburban neighborhoods has occurred in the last 6 years than in the preceding 50.  Cities that were lily white just 10 years ago are now approaching balanced demographics in terms of ethnicity.  Again, it is what it is.

What’s over-simplistic to simply blame the mass exodus from Detroit and the collapse of its tax base on the troubles of the big 3. You live nearby, you know better.

What is over simplistic is to blame everything on Democrats aka Takers. 

The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.

The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.



#108 d'ranger

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:14 PM

The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.

The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.

Chicken and egg.  Did the city fall apart before or after people moved away?  Did the people move away because the jobs moved away?  (guessing you didn't bother to read the article I linked earlier).

 

Life is always so simple when you can blame everything on Democrats. 



#109 craigiri

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:09 PM

Ever hear of "white flight"? It happened in philly too.

 

As I said, now they are all lining up to move back to the city....

 

Detroit is just a couple decades behind because the industry lasted longer there than it did in Philly, NY, Providence, Boston, etc.

 

It will all be fine, Doggie. Just the world going though it's growing and changing......

Get real...Detroit lost 2/3 of its population. Nothing remotely similar occurred in Philly (and BTW they are lining up to move back in. Philly has a modest 0.6% growth rate, it’s not all Northern Liberties) or NY or Boston.

 

Philly lost almost 30% of it's population from about 2.1 million to 1.5 million - back in the 1950-1960 era.....

 

Not a one industry town so not subject to the same mistakes and downsizing of the car industry. 

 

Whether Detroit ends up with a population of 400K or 600K is not the issue. The old days are gone because the Big Three fucked up. Capitalism works..sometimes...for some people. But not all the time for all people. 



#110 craigiri

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:31 PM

The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.

The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.

It's hard to know if you really believe this crap or are just playing "sides".

 

If I take your "conclusion" to be fact, then it also tells me that virtually ALL the best and smartest people, the best colleges, the best companies, the fittest people, the longest lived, etc. are ALL the result of Democratic leadership. (CA, MA, etc. etc.)

 

Is that true Doggie? If not, you are full of poop. If it's true, then I accept your "conclusion. 



#111 squirel

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:49 PM

In sharply worded smackdowns, the Federal judge and the State Court of Appeals told the Ingham County Circuit Court judge to stay out of the process. She's well known to be a Democratic operative masquerading as a 'non-partisan' Circuit Court judge and had ruled, no surprises there, in favor of the unions.

This could actually end up as a States Rights case in addition to a bankruptcy case as Michigan's Constitution forbids reducing public sector pension benefits but Ch. 9 is a Federal process.

#112 Dog

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 10:41 AM

The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.

The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.

It's hard to know if you really believe this crap or are just playing "sides".

 

If I take your "conclusion" to be fact, then it also tells me that virtually ALL the best and smartest people, the best colleges, the best companies, the fittest people, the longest lived, etc. are ALL the result of Democratic leadership. (CA, MA, etc. etc.)

 

Is that true Doggie? If not, you are full of poop. If it's true, then I accept your "conclusion. 

Focus Craigiri....I said the Democratic government of Detroit failed miserably resulting in this bankruptcy which is a fact. I did not say the Democratic government of Boston failed miserably or that all Democratic governments fail miserably. Get the distinction?

 

Try responding to the words on the screen and not the shit in your own head.



#113 Dog

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 10:58 AM

 

Ever hear of "white flight"? It happened in philly too.

 

As I said, now they are all lining up to move back to the city....

 

Detroit is just a couple decades behind because the industry lasted longer there than it did in Philly, NY, Providence, Boston, etc.

 

It will all be fine, Doggie. Just the world going though it's growing and changing......

Get real...Detroit lost 2/3 of its population. Nothing remotely similar occurred in Philly (and BTW they are lining up to move back in. Philly has a modest 0.6% growth rate, it’s not all Northern Liberties) or NY or Boston.

 

Philly lost almost 30% of it's population from about 2.1 million to 1.5 million - back in the 1950-1960 era.....

 

Not a one industry town so not subject to the same mistakes and downsizing of the car industry. 

 

Whether Detroit ends up with a population of 400K or 600K is not the issue. The old days are gone because the Big Three fucked up. Capitalism works..sometimes...for some people. But not all the time for all people. 

So the decline in Detroit was twice that of Philly.  Of course the troubles faced by the big 3 played a part in Detroit’s problems but other auto industry dependant  cities are not filing for bankruptcy. Detroit lost 90% of its manufacturing jobs because the city government drove businesses out of the city or out of business. That businesses pulled up stakes and moved to more hospitable municipalities is just a fact.



#114 jameswilson29

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:26 PM

In sharply worded smackdowns, the Federal judge and the State Court of Appeals told the Ingham County Circuit Court judge to stay out of the process. She's well known to be a Democratic operative masquerading as a 'non-partisan' Circuit Court judge and had ruled, no surprises there, in favor of the unions.

This could actually end up as a States Rights case in addition to a bankruptcy case as Michigan's Constitution forbids reducing public sector pension benefits but Ch. 9 is a Federal process.

 

That was an unusual state court decision.  Article I, Section 8[4] of the Constitution gave Congress the power to establish uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcy.  The supremacy clause in Article VI, Section 2, makes the Constitution and federal law under the Constitution the supreme Law of the Land.  The bankruptcy courts look to state law to determine property rights, but there is no question that state law cannot trump the right to file for bankruptcy relief under Title 11.  Further, under the doctrine of federal preemption, valid federal jurisdiction does not allow for conflicting state law jurisdiction.

 

The interesting history about the need for uniform federal bankruptcy law was the patchwork of different insolvency and bankruptcy laws, and the use of debtor's prisons, in the various parts of Colonial America, which the Founding Fathers believed would impair interstate travel, commerce and trade.  Since a merchant or citizen might be free to transact business in one state, but held in debtor's prison in another, the Founding Fathers recognized the need for uniform treatment of debtors in insolvency to eliminate that uncertainty.

 

Section 903 of the Bankruptcy Code recognizes the power of states to control municipalities, with certain limitations, but to find a state right to eliminate a right long established under the Constitution, because of the anticipated treatment of a class of claims, is a puzzler.



#115 craigiri

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:09 PM

Focus Craigiri....I said the Democratic government of Detroit failed miserably resulting in this bankruptcy which is a fact. I did not say the Democratic government of Boston failed miserably or that all Democratic governments fail miserably. Get the distinction?

 

 

 

Try responding to the words on the screen and not the shit in your own head.

 

Ah, so your point is that decrepit big city politics are suspect?

 

Oh, then I agree with you on most of that.....but, realistically, other than anecdotally it doesn't have much to do with Detroit failing. The city fathers could have cut expenses in 1/2 and the Big Three still would have had lousy cars, terrible quality and no patriotism. 

 

Now, in official terms...lousy cars, terrible quality and lack of patriotism don't have a political party - BUT, I think you know that most of those folks sitting in the executive suite were forking over the big bucks to the Grand Ole Party....

 

And so, your point that the GOP ruined the car industry by lack of planning, quest for immediate profits and lack of caring about American - and that some squirrelly "democrats" took over the decrepit city and milked what little was left.....is well taken.

 

But I really don't see the point. I doubt anyone here is gonna stand up and fight behind big city corrupt dems (or any party). In Philly we had the actual statement "The brothers now own the city" from the Mayor! And guess what? The city flourished. 



#116 Dog

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:13 PM

Focus Craigiri....I said the Democratic government of Detroit failed miserably resulting in this bankruptcy which is a fact. I did not say the Democratic government of Boston failed miserably or that all Democratic governments fail miserably. Get the distinction?

 

 

 

Try responding to the words on the screen and not the shit in your own head.

 

Ah, so your point is that decrepit big city politics are suspect?

 

Oh, then I agree with you on most of that.....but, realistically, other than anecdotally it doesn't have much to do with Detroit failing. The city fathers could have cut expenses in 1/2 and the Big Three still would have had lousy cars, terrible quality and no patriotism. 

 

Now, in official terms...lousy cars, terrible quality and lack of patriotism don't have a political party - BUT, I think you know that most of those folks sitting in the executive suite were forking over the big bucks to the Grand Ole Party....

 

And so, your point that the GOP ruined the car industry by lack of planning, quest for immediate profits and lack of caring about American - and that some squirrelly "democrats" took over the decrepit city and milked what little was left.....is well taken.

 

But I really don't see the point. I doubt anyone here is gonna stand up and fight behind big city corrupt dems (or any party). In Philly we had the actual statement "The brothers now own the city" from the Mayor! And guess what? The city flourished. 

One more time...Try responding to the words on the screen and not the shit in your own head.



#117 squirel

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:02 PM

Please stop quoting craigiri. Please.

#118 plchacker

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:13 PM

Third, Workers in the South are not protected (union?) and do not get healthcare etc.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Most of the mills I worked in are union mills. We are very familiar with the IBEW, US Steel workers, and many others.  The auto manufacturers provide excellent health care, 401K, and a myriad of other benefits. I don't know exactly what type of garbage you have been fed, or from who, but while we work for a bit less, our cost of living is dramatically less as well.  The quality of life is excellent.  Land is less expensive, taxes are lower, power and other utilities are cheaper, insurance is in most cases lower.  The list goes on.  That said, there are some situations where small mills take advantage of unskilled labor.  The average mill electrician makes better than $30/hr.  I will leave the Union vs Non-Union for another thread but you have been misinformed or simply choose to believe falsehoods about Southern Labor.

 

As for Detroit, the city was mismanaged.  Most of my father's family left Detroit well before the 1990's.  I have good friends there.  The auto industry suffered from mismanagement and over zealous union hacks, but while mismanagement brought both the city and the industry down, they were separate entities. 

 

They don't get health care when they are fired. The proof is in the pudding and that factory received a free BILLION dollars from the taxpayer and pays the workers 1/2 that of Germany. That's a BIG difference, my friend, and no amount of "new math" can prove that a worker gets the same life for 1/2 the price. 

 

Maybe you could compare:

Family leave

sick time

vacation (paid)

job security

Actual pension

health care upon terminations and retirement

 

to the German model and get back to us. 

 

My claim is simply that they come here because the workers cost them 1/2 the price and the taxpayers and worse lifestyles of the workers make up the difference. That's the difference between $30 and $60 an hour - one pays the entire life cycle cost and the other pays while you are young and strong and healthy and then dumps you. 

 

Please - let me know how well those 500 workers just laid off do compared to German workers. I don't even have to look it up to assume that they fare much worse off. And that's all my point is. They move the plants here because of the gift of cheap Labor and taxpayer incentives.

 

Do you really claim otherwise? Sure, they also get other benefits such as being closer to the market and being able to arbitrage the currencies, etc. - but the main driver is a willing workforce that will work for less and pols which will give them taxpayer money.

 

As far as robotics, you certainly are familiar that there used to be a person with a spot welder to do each of a couple welds? Now there is this. No one can watch it and deny that vast numbers of workers have been excused....

 

Not only have robots vastly reduced the man-hours required to build (the same) car, but they also build a much better car which then lasts much longer. Back of the envelope calcs might go like this.....

 

Average age and milage of cars from the heyday of Detroit (1960) to today has doubled....

Robotics has replaced 50% of all workers required to build the same car.

 

Taking that as a possibility, that would mean - even without the big foreign brands having taken over - that 1/4 the number of workers would be needed to manufacturer cars. Whatever the real numbers are, I posit that it is certainly enough to destroy the economy which was built on auto manufacturing. Add in the foreign makes and you have a complete rout. 

Sorry it took so long to get back:  I have been very very busy.

 

Okay, lets start with the Germany vs US thing first.  Health care is socialized in Germany/Austria.  We have a different system.  That is not the companies fault.  Apples to oranges.  There is no comparison.

 

Second, I have worked in Austria, for an Austrian company.  I specialize in automation.  The Austrian work week then was 36 hours.  Pay was about 20% higher than in the US.  However, the cost of land was through the roof. Food was more expensive.  I worked with guys who had to wait a year to get an apartment.  I also lived in Italy, we won't even get started about the power bills there.  The company I worked for made a popular line of functional kitchen hardware.  The cost for a single pair of cabinet hinges was around $20.00US.  After opening the US plant, that price dropped drastically.   I missed the layoff you referred too, so I have no comment about that.  Point is in Europe, life is expensive.  The guys I worked with in Austria did not have a significantly more rich life style than I had working in the US for the same company in the same capacity.  Further, my life style was comparable to others in the controls world.  In fact more than a few Austrians decided to work through the long process of becoming US citizens.  I don't know any Americans that applied for Austrian citizenship.  Your argument does not hold water in a real world situation.

 

Now, for a lesson or two in manufacturing.  It is usually wise to produce the product close to the market.  Shipping costs can be a bitch.  The exceptions are ultra cheap labor (China) and over restrictive governmental regulations.  If raw material can be had close to the market, build your product close to the market.  It is really simple.

 

Next, the robots.  I have been in automation my entire career.  I have built machines that cut the need for repetitive, unhealthy labor.  Machines can be faster, more precise and produce higher quality.  That said, machines need maintenance, lots of it.  It takes highly skilled dedicated teams to keep automated machines running.  That is what I teach my students to do.  They start between $20-$30/hr.  How many coopers are still in business?  Our world changes, so dose the work. Odd thing, I have never witnessed a layoff due only to automation.  Companies always retrained existing workers for higher paying jobs. 

 

Robots are not cheap.  They are not cheap to build, program or maintain.  They are not used for every single process in the mill.  They are exceedingly good at some things and terrible at others.  They are great for welding and painting (both of which are not good for human health.)   Your little video shows the weld shop.  It does not show the assembly line.  There you will find lots of humans adding parts to cars. 

 

Here are a few facts about robots:

 

They do not require workman's comp insurance.  The do require maintenance.

They do not mind working on holidays, weekends, nights as long has they receive scheduled maintenance. 

They are great at repetitive tasks and moving heavy loads.  (both are bad for people)

They can work in hazardous conditions.

There are many tasks that they are not particularly suited for. 

They are expensive.  You must work them in order to pay for them.

They do not commit crimes like sexual harassment.

In most cases, the jobs they replace are low quality, poor paying, unhealthy labor positions. 

Lower manufacturing costs will yield lower product costs. 

 

I am doing practical tests (hands on and written) for a company in a couple weeks.  That company is hiring electricians.  They start an $32.00/hr.  The company listed 5 positions.  They had 6 capable applicants.  6, total, in a world where we are constantly hearing how bad the economy is.  6 applications for 5 positions.  I am sure that at least 2 of those are my former students.  There are good paying jobs for people who want to work and are willing to learn the skills.   BTW this is one of the reasons it has taken so long to get back with you. 

 

I know you love union labor.  Frankly I thing the unions need to be regulated too.  However, it may surprise you to know that the mill I mentioned above is a union mill.  The Austrian mill I worked in was not.

 

Vacation was slightly better in Austria, but not much.  Training was top quality in both.  Health insurance was better in the American company than insurance in the Austrian company (US Site.)  The pension depends on the individual.  I personally like 401K and have done very well with it.  Some are not cut out to deal with the risks.  When working for the Austrian company, the Austrians were surprised at how much money I was saving. 

 

The Big 3 had a labor union problem.  Ford was paying people 75K/year for work barley worth min wage.  Sooner or later you will go broke doing that.


Detroit had management problems similar to the union problems the Big 3 faced. 

 

My father, grandfather were both members of the UAW.  I had a front row view or the union life.  I was a shop steward and vice president or our own local (PACE-United Steel Workers) in a paper mill.  I also owned my own company before teaching.  As a teacher I choose not to be part of the NEA or the AEA.  You can blow smoke up others' asses  but not mine sir.  I have seen both sides of the coin. 



#119 mikewof

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:08 AM

The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.

The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.

 

That kind of inverted local economy is a symptom of a collapsed economy. The city workers are often on a contract, and due to the unfunded liabilities that was brought up before, it leaves the city scrambling to keep up with their pension obligations and existing contracts.

 

Also, you write that 47% of Detroit's population is illiterate, apparently without doing one tiny bit of research to find if this is true or not. Turns out the statistic you've cited is about twenty years old, taken questionably long before Detroit's current problems and if you had looked into the study itself you would have seen that it didn't claim to have an actual literacy measurement for the county.

 

http://blog.datadriv...tes-in-detroit/

 

If you had bothered to look up the actual literacy rate, you would have seen that about 12% (not 47%) lack "basic prose literacy skills" and that's with a 95% confidence interval for Wayne County.

 

http://nces.ed.gov/n...eEstimates.aspx

 

If your opinions are based on obvious errors like this, what else in your opinions needs to be adjusted?



#120 craigiri

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:46 AM

My father, grandfather were both members of the UAW.  I had a front row view or the union life.  I was a shop steward and vice president or our own local (PACE-United Steel Workers) in a paper mill.  I also owned my own company before teaching.  As a teacher I choose not to be part of the NEA or the AEA.  You can blow smoke up others' asses  but not mine sir.  I have seen both sides of the coin. 

 

A lot of words - some true, others....well, you dismiss health care with one short sentence! Yet, at almost 20% of our GDP and one of the rocks that has hung over our entire manufacturing sector (and Detroit!), it's nothing to be thrown out the window!

 

Let's start with #1. Unions. I have never been a member of a union. In fact, my family owned a clothing factory and my dad hated the union, since he was management! Case dismissed. I have always been in business for myself and made a living from the ground up (construction, sales, importing, manufacturing, etc.) - so a union is and was never a part of my life. 

 

I can tell you this. The union garment workers were making almost nothing but without the union my dad would have paid them even less and shown them the door much quicker....and treated them worse. For instance, the union made him put A/C in the factory - you can only imagine steam pressing dresses all day in 95 degree summer weather!

 

But that is neither here nor there.

 

I'm sure you have experience in your life, but that shouldn't precluded you from basic math. You talked around the issue of automation and quality which I laid out - and although I said my calcs were top-of-the-head, there is no doubt that cars which last twice as long and take fewer workers to assemble are going to mean lost jobs. I'm not claiming that is a bad thing - in fact, it is not! But it is never the less true. It takes fewer workers to build and fix robots than to do the welds that they accomplish. You know that. So don't smoke our asses either....

 

I could care less about unions as some kind of talking point. The fact remains that Germany, with 1/4 our population, produces more cars and pays the workers twice as much - and the workers have a better life as a result. You could write a book and that fact does not change. 

 

Even Windsor, ONT. is not going broke - yet they have unions and car plants. Why not? 

 

BTW, I did import products from Denmark and traveled over there quite a bit to the factories. Yes, they had 34 hour work weeks, 5+ weeks vacation, cradle to grave health care and high wages...and, of course, unions. But the unions were just one part of the mix. The Directors actually got along with the unions. 

 

In the end it's about what kind of a society we desire. The existing one which you seem to champion (our current state) has the largest income inequality since the Guilded Age.  My vision is one where long term planning is put into place so that we can educate our workforce for the present and future jobs - and have industrial and trade policies which assure that many of those jobs will be here.

 

We have to start somewhere and lamenting about the "unions ruining this" or the "democrats destroying that" just ain't gonna cut it. 



#121 d'ranger

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:55 AM

Unions and workers in general will always have a legitimate gripe when execs make hundreds and thousands times what they do.  Segue to Lee Iaccoca for helping launch the myth of the Sooper Genius CEO.  



#122 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:19 AM

No problem bail them out like Greece complete with mandatory austerity. That will fix it... :lol:



#123 mikewof

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:56 AM

Unions and workers in general will always have a legitimate gripe when execs make hundreds and thousands times what they do.  Segue to Lee Iaccoca for helping launch the myth of the Sooper Genius CEO.  

They'll grumble and gripe about the suits making so much more than them, but they'll also be okay with it if management really does display and operate with the expertise that the average line worker presumably doesn't have, which justifies that high pay.

If those high paid suits keep the company healthy, put products on the line that people want to buy and keep quality high in the supply chain then the workers don't have to worry about their jobs and their children's college tuition, their pension, etc..

But when the suits get their asses kicked by competitors, blame low-bid crap supply chain quality on the line workers who just bolt on the part, then the complaints begin to grow teeth.

Ostensibly, the reason the suits are worth so much more than the line worker is because they have access to knowledge and wisdom beyond the reach of the union shlub. But when the curtain is drawn and it's realized that it's all a sham -- that management doesn't know how to keep the company competitive -- then the atmosphere changes. The Sooper Genius is revealed to be an average dolt with no more special wisdom than the line worker.

#124 Dog

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:28 AM

The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.
The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.

 
That kind of inverted local economy is a symptom of a collapsed economy. The city workers are often on a contract, and due to the unfunded liabilities that was brought up before, it leaves the city scrambling to keep up with their pension obligations and existing contracts.
 
Also, you write that 47% of Detroit's population is illiterate, apparently without doing one tiny bit of research to find if this is true or not. Turns out the statistic you've cited is about twenty years old, taken questionably long before Detroit's current problems and if you had looked into the study itself you would have seen that it didn't claim to have an actual literacy measurement for the county.
 
http://blog.datadriv...tes-in-detroit/
 
If you had bothered to look up the actual literacy rate, you would have seen that about 12% (not 47%) lack "basic prose literacy skills" and that's with a 95% confidence interval for Wayne County.
 
http://nces.ed.gov/n...eEstimates.aspx
 
If your opinions are based on obvious errors like this, what else in your opinions needs to be adjusted?
Mike... Speaking of obvious errors, why would you cite Wayne county literacy statistics when trying to make a point about Detroit literacy rates?

#125 Dog

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:27 AM

In the end it's about what kind of a society we desire. The existing one which you seem to champion (our current state) has the largest income inequality since the Guilded Age.  My vision is one where long term planning is put into place so that we can educate our workforce for the present and future jobs - and have industrial and trade policies which assure that many of those jobs will be here.

Where have we heard that before?...anybody...anybody...Bueller.

#126 craigiri

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:36 PM

maybe at forbes, etc.

300px-2008_Top1percentUSA1.png



#127 Dog

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:50 PM

In the end it's about what kind of a society we desire. The existing one which you seem to champion (our current state) has the largest income inequality since the Guilded Age.  My vision is one where long term planning is put into place so that we can educate our workforce for the present and future jobs - and have industrial and trade policies which assure that many of those jobs will be here.

Where have we heard that before?...anybody...anybody...Bueller.
America has always been about free spontaneous markets and that has served us well raising living standards more than any other system ever devised. How does your “long term planning” square with the traditional American model? Who would you trust to plan our future and how would the plan be enforced? I’m skeptical because planned economies have been tried with unsatisfactory results in fact many people have died trying to escape them.

#128 Olsonist

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:12 PM

But besides the danger of a direct mixture of Religion & civil Government, there is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by ecclesiastical corporations. The power of all corporations, ought to be limited in this respect.

 

Madison, James.

 

The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations

 

Jefferson, Tommy.

 

Dog, you're up.



#129 craigiri

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:33 PM

 

In the end it's about what kind of a society we desire. The existing one which you seem to champion (our current state) has the largest income inequality since the Guilded Age.  My vision is one where long term planning is put into place so that we can educate our workforce for the present and future jobs - and have industrial and trade policies which assure that many of those jobs will be here.

Where have we heard that before?...anybody...anybody...Bueller.
America has always been about free spontaneous markets and that has served us well raising living standards more than any other system ever devised. How does your “long term planning” square with the traditional American model? Who would you trust to plan our future and how would the plan be enforced? I’m skeptical because planned economies have been tried with unsatisfactory results in fact many people have died trying to escape them.

 

As you should know, that "spontaneous" growth was built largely upon almost unlimited land and resources, as well as slavery and dislocation of the existing residents, etc. - not a sustainable model. What I am proposing is nothing radical - in fact, many economists agree that we are in a new age and a new world. It takes decades to plan infrastructure such as highways, bridges, high speed rail, etc.

It takes decades to replace entire car and truck and plane fleets.

 

The plan is already underway to the extent it can be - which involves moves toward more efficiency and cleaner energy. 

The plan is enforced by clean air, clean water, CAFE and other such standards.

 

Of course, that is only one part of a plan. Education and health care are major parts which need to be addressed.

 

In terms of many measurements we have already failed. What you champion as so great is starting not to measure up to the rest of the world. Insisting on the frontier (there is almost more money over yonder mountain) mentality will put us even further behind.

 

We need to look around the world and take the best ideas and mold them to our society. That's what the founders did. You cannot deny that China "planned" more people out of poverty quicker than any country in history. When it comes to solar, wind, high speed rail, etc. their planned system is trumping ours (in a relative manner)...

 

Not to say we should be communist china - but I have always found the common sense planning beats willy-nilly. We should have, for instance, continued on our "green" ways when it first got started back in the 1970's. If we did, we'd be supplying the entire world with machines and know-how now. Instead, the Germans and the Danes and the Chinese and Israelis have a lot of the market.

 

Just one example. 

 

Planning is done every day. We have planning boards and county and state level planning here. It works. 



#130 mikewof

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:59 PM



The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.
The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.

 
That kind of inverted local economy is a symptom of a collapsed economy. The city workers are often on a contract, and due to the unfunded liabilities that was brought up before, it leaves the city scrambling to keep up with their pension obligations and existing contracts.
 
Also, you write that 47% of Detroit's population is illiterate, apparently without doing one tiny bit of research to find if this is true or not. Turns out the statistic you've cited is about twenty years old, taken questionably long before Detroit's current problems and if you had looked into the study itself you would have seen that it didn't claim to have an actual literacy measurement for the county.
 
http://blog.datadriv...tes-in-detroit/
 
If you had bothered to look up the actual literacy rate, you would have seen that about 12% (not 47%) lack "basic prose literacy skills" and that's with a 95% confidence interval for Wayne County.
 
http://nces.ed.gov/n...eEstimates.aspx
 
If your opinions are based on obvious errors like this, what else in your opinions needs to be adjusted?


Mike... Speaking of obvious errors, why would you cite Wayne county literacy statistics when trying to make a point about Detroit literacy rates?


The literacy rates are by County only. that's why your 47% "stat" is bullshit, and you would have known that had you looked into it. The authors of that ridiculous study you cited had no way to actually derive literacy below the county granularity other than a hand-waving argument based on economic factors.

Further, with Detroit being the biggest city in Wayne County, it has about 50% of the population, so at their 95% confidence interval, even if every other city in Wayne County had half of the literacy rate of Detroit, that would still leave Detroit's literacy rate well under half of your ridiculous statistic.

Oh wait, I just used math, numbers and all that, and I'm a lefty, must make the whole field of basic math a librul conspiracy.


Here's what we have ... you built your argument around disinformation that you brought into this thread, which in my opinion invalidates the rest your opinions in this thread.

#131 Dog

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:15 PM

The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.
The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.

 
That kind of inverted local economy is a symptom of a collapsed economy. The city workers are often on a contract, and due to the unfunded liabilities that was brought up before, it leaves the city scrambling to keep up with their pension obligations and existing contracts.
 
Also, you write that 47% of Detroit's population is illiterate, apparently without doing one tiny bit of research to find if this is true or not. Turns out the statistic you've cited is about twenty years old, taken questionably long before Detroit's current problems and if you had looked into the study itself you would have seen that it didn't claim to have an actual literacy measurement for the county.
 
http://blog.datadriv...tes-in-detroit/
 
If you had bothered to look up the actual literacy rate, you would have seen that about 12% (not 47%) lack "basic prose literacy skills" and that's with a 95% confidence interval for Wayne County.
 
http://nces.ed.gov/n...eEstimates.aspx
 
If your opinions are based on obvious errors like this, what else in your opinions needs to be adjusted?

Mike... Speaking of obvious errors, why would you cite Wayne county literacy statistics when trying to make a point about Detroit literacy rates?

The literacy rates are by County only. that's why your 47% "stat" is bullshit, and you would have known that had you looked into it. The authors of that ridiculous study you cited had no way to actually derive literacy below the county granularity other than a hand-waving argument based on economic factors.

Further, with Detroit being the biggest city in Wayne County, it has about 50% of the population, so at the 95% confidence, even if every other city in Wayne County had half of the literacy rate of Detroit, that would still leave Detroit's literacy rate well under half of your ridiculous statistic.

Oh wait, I just used math, numbers and all that, and I'm a lefty, must make the whole field of basic math a librul conspiracy.


Here's what we have ... you built your argument around disinformation that you brought into this thread, which in my opinion invalidates the rest your opinions in this thread.
If my opinion, which is that Detroit’s government fucked up, is invalid what do you believe is the valid reason for Detroit’s bankruptcy?
BTW… Detroit’s population is not half of Wayne county’s.

#132 TheFlash

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:35 PM

 

 

In the end it's about what kind of a society we desire. The existing one which you seem to champion (our current state) has the largest income inequality since the Guilded Age.  My vision is one where long term planning is put into place so that we can educate our workforce for the present and future jobs - and have industrial and trade policies which assure that many of those jobs will be here.

Where have we heard that before?...anybody...anybody...Bueller.
America has always been about free spontaneous markets and that has served us well raising living standards more than any other system ever devised. How does your “long term planning” square with the traditional American model? Who would you trust to plan our future and how would the plan be enforced? I’m skeptical because planned economies have been tried with unsatisfactory results in fact many people have died trying to escape them.

 

As you should know, that "spontaneous" growth was built largely upon almost unlimited land and resources, as well as slavery and dislocation of the existing residents, etc. - not a sustainable model. What I am proposing is nothing radical - in fact, many economists agree that we are in a new age and a new world. It takes decades to plan infrastructure such as highways, bridges, high speed rail, etc.

It takes decades to replace entire car and truck and plane fleets.

 

The plan is already underway to the extent it can be - which involves moves toward more efficiency and cleaner energy. 

The plan is enforced by clean air, clean water, CAFE and other such standards.

 

Of course, that is only one part of a plan. Education and health care are major parts which need to be addressed.

 

In terms of many measurements we have already failed. What you champion as so great is starting not to measure up to the rest of the world. Insisting on the frontier (there is almost more money over yonder mountain) mentality will put us even further behind.

 

We need to look around the world and take the best ideas and mold them to our society. That's what the founders did. You cannot deny that China "planned" more people out of poverty quicker than any country in history. When it comes to solar, wind, high speed rail, etc. their planned system is trumping ours (in a relative manner)...

 

Not to say we should be communist china - but I have always found the common sense planning beats willy-nilly. We should have, for instance, continued on our "green" ways when it first got started back in the 1970's. If we did, we'd be supplying the entire world with machines and know-how now. Instead, the Germans and the Danes and the Chinese and Israelis have a lot of the market.

 

Just one example. 

 

Planning is done every day. We have planning boards and county and state level planning here. It works. 

craigri - you cannot (gov't cannot, no one can) determine what products, services etc will be needed in 5 years, let alone the decades out.

 

Think about transportation. Will we need it?  Yes, does it have to be ICE propelled 4 wheel vehicles, nope.  I live in a place where the industries are almost completely different every decade, the only constant is smart people working hard to better themselves.  Jobs come and go - if anything, we need to work with our citizens and get them to understand they own their own future. No one will give it to them.

 

Dog - the problem with what I just wrote is that the blatant income inequality due to our tax and economic policies so favor the rich, that we run the risk of real strife as the working poor get fed up with it.

 

Detroit is a mess as the highly integrated industry model is just not that important when info flows freely.  It's cheaper for one company to make 12 million car seats and send them to factories all over, than for 3 integrated monsters to make exactly what they need.  When that change occurred, all of a sudden you find those subcontractors relocating in cheaper locales, further and further away.  A decentralized model is cheaper - and since Detroit was built to service a centralized model - well, they were fucked.

 

Unless they were fortune tellers, the detroit leaders did what was logical, just like the auto execs thought they would continue unscathed.

 

The question now is, what to do about it?  Who cares if they can't declare bankruptcy? It's not like that will create money to magically pay off the pensioners.  Give the courts some time, this is what they do.



#133 craigiri

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:43 PM

Doggie, you confuse correlation with causation....

 

Of course Detroit's gubment is all screwed up.  That's quite obvious. 

 

But your summary of why and how is like walking into a crack house in 1980's NYC and saying those crackheads are the reason NYC was virtually bankrupt. They were not.....rather they are just some of the victims and refuse left by the wrecking crew.

 

The wrecking crew is a combination of Wall Street, Free Market Globalization/Capitalism and our own personal and combined greed and lack of foresight. When you don't have a plan and just party, you often wake up with either a hangover or a DUI or...even dead.

 

Our system goes too far out on all ends - the bubbles, then the crashes. It needs a bit of tempering. 

 

But, yeah, of course their city government is corrupt. That's nothing new. Here in Providence we had Buddy Cianci, who is now a republican hero despite doing jail time on racketeering charges from when he was mayor. You should check out his radio show!

 

Do you think the crooks in Detroit will be elevated to that level. Heck, you can even buy his Pasta Sauce (it sucks, I tried it).

Oh, and Providence is still a dump.....

 

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#134 zzrider

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:07 PM

If my opinion, which is that Detroit’s government fucked up, is invalid what do you believe is the valid reason for Detroit’s bankruptcy?
BTW… Detroit’s population is not half of Wayne county’s.

 

Is it even a subject of debate that Detroit's government fucked up?  Isn't this self evident?

 

Consider this: Detroit is bankrupt because they cannot meet their payment obligations (the functional definition of bankruptcy), right?  Furthermore, they are in this situation principally because of crushing retirement benefits promised to current and future union workers.  Like it or not, this is a fact not open to debate.

 

At the heart of Detroit's problem is a growing unfunded debt on benefits owed to current and future retirees — some $3.5 billion, according to its emergency manager, Kevyn Orr — which mirrors a circumstance being seen across the U.S.

 

These funds are looking at staggering losses of up to 90%!  Now I ask you this - how is this possible?  You don't typically lose 90% of anything overnight, and I've read nothing to indicate that Detroit found itself staring at these losses by sudden suprise.  Can we agree so far?

 

Ok.  So unfunded retirement benefit programs are the causative agent for Detroit's bankruptcy, and we acknowledge that this didn't just suddenly happen overnight.  Here's a third little piece nobody is talking about: As with most (all?) states, Michegan's state Constitution explicitly forbids carrying over deficits. 

 

Sec. 18. The governor shall submit to the legislature at a time fixed by law, a budget for the
ensuing fiscal period setting forth in detail, for all operating funds, the proposed expenditures
and estimated revenue of the state. Proposed expenditures from any fund shall not exceed the
estimated revenue thereof.

 

So, unless someone wants to make the case that Detroit's problems just suddenly came from nowhere over the current fiscal year (they didn't, BTW), then we clearly have a structure problem with losses mounting over years, even decades.  That shouldn't be possible, given the Constitutional constraint on deficit spending.  That it happened is proof-positive of criminal wrongdoing.  Where are the handcuffs?

 

So once again, we have a petulant population of workers and citizens who want a magic unicorn to promise them candy and rainbows, and we elect unscrupulous political crooks who will blow sunshine up our ass and make us promises that they and any rational, thinking person knows cannot be delivered upon.

 

State pension funds are frequently based on an absurd assumption of perpetual 8% returns, which is a complete scam and the people who sell this snake oil really ought to go to prison.

 

So you can blame the Big Three, or politicians of Team D or Team R, or union bosses, or union workers, or whatever.  While all share the blame, it rests principally on an immature, greedy, lazy, ingorant, unthinking populace which simply refused to face the music until it finally stopped.



#135 mikewof

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:48 PM





The largest employer in Detroit is the school district followed by city government with one employee for every 50 residents. (Indinapolis has 1 per 223) 47% of the population is illiterate despite extravagant spending on education. City services are pathetic and crime and corruption are rampant.
The Democratic city government has failed Detroit miserably and now they are bankrupt, that’s just a fact.

 
That kind of inverted local economy is a symptom of a collapsed economy. The city workers are often on a contract, and due to the unfunded liabilities that was brought up before, it leaves the city scrambling to keep up with their pension obligations and existing contracts.
 
Also, you write that 47% of Detroit's population is illiterate, apparently without doing one tiny bit of research to find if this is true or not. Turns out the statistic you've cited is about twenty years old, taken questionably long before Detroit's current problems and if you had looked into the study itself you would have seen that it didn't claim to have an actual literacy measurement for the county.
 
http://blog.datadriv...tes-in-detroit/
 
If you had bothered to look up the actual literacy rate, you would have seen that about 12% (not 47%) lack "basic prose literacy skills" and that's with a 95% confidence interval for Wayne County.
 
http://nces.ed.gov/n...eEstimates.aspx
 
If your opinions are based on obvious errors like this, what else in your opinions needs to be adjusted?


Mike... Speaking of obvious errors, why would you cite Wayne county literacy statistics when trying to make a point about Detroit literacy rates?


The literacy rates are by County only. that's why your 47% "stat" is bullshit, and you would have known that had you looked into it. The authors of that ridiculous study you cited had no way to actually derive literacy below the county granularity other than a hand-waving argument based on economic factors.

Further, with Detroit being the biggest city in Wayne County, it has about 50% of the population, so at the 95% confidence, even if every other city in Wayne County had half of the literacy rate of Detroit, that would still leave Detroit's literacy rate well under half of your ridiculous statistic.

Oh wait, I just used math, numbers and all that, and I'm a lefty, must make the whole field of basic math a librul conspiracy.


Here's what we have ... you built your argument around disinformation that you brought into this thread, which in my opinion invalidates the rest your opinions in this thread.


If my opinion, which is that Detroit’s government fucked up, is invalid what do you believe is the valid reason for Detroit’s bankruptcy?
BTW… Detroit’s population is not half of Wayne county’s.


First off, Detroit's population has fallen, it's currently about 40% of the population of Wayne County. But the most recent literacy study I could find was from 2003, it might be another few years before another comprehensive study. Back in 2003, the population of Detroit was closer to 50% of Wayne County.

As for your question to Detroit's bankruptcy, it's because they geared up heavy for the go-go years and the nature of pensions until recently was pay-as-you-go, so now they're left with the unfunded, pay-as-you-go liabilities of pensions, infrastructure bonds and existing worker contracts. Add to that, they have the massive cost of managing a city that was built for a lot of industry and the revenue isn't there.

And Detroit is actually doing something that might be smart, they're allowing the conversion of liabilities of insurance and blight back into open space. http://ideas.blogs.n...-farmland/?_r=0

But for now, it's like Detroit is forced to deliver pizzas with a 18-wheeler ... it takes a lot of money to manage an infrastructure like that, that isn't producing much revenue.

Now, how did Detroit find themselves here? Some blame has to go to not putting energy to diversifying their industries. But a big reason for their current situation is just bad luck ... if I had to pick an industry that would have been stable I would have chosen the auto/truck industry way before the heatlhcare and service sectors. But it didn't work out like that. It's Monday Morning quarterbacking to write how they should have done things differently. Detroit approached their industry as well as any city could have expected, when industry asked them to build out, Detroit built out. When industry needed them add services, Detroit added services.

Maybe the moral of the story is the old cliche in journalism ... "Never give your heart to a newspaper because it will break it in the end."

or,

"Never be industry's bitch because they'll fuck you and leave you in the end."

That's what industry did to Detroit. Detroit gave industry all the blowjobs they asked for, and in the end they left Detroit for the younger slut of globalization. The industry suits still have a functionally decent life in Ann Arbor and Grosse Pointe, but now they have other supply chains around the world to make those products with JIT delivery and fast logistics replacing the dirty-fingernailed workers in Detroit.

Detroit will be back, they're already on the way back. If I had money to invest, I would invest in Detroit. That's a hundred-year infrastructure, and it can take in just about any industry that can expand into it.

#136 squirel

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:36 PM

What's in Detroit - the City of Detroit - that you would invest in?

#137 craigiri

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:43 PM

These funds are looking at staggering losses of up to 90%!  Now I ask you this - how is this possible?  You don't typically lose 90% of anything overnight, and I've read nothing to indicate that Detroit found itself staring at these losses by sudden suprise.  Can we agree so far?

 

Ok.  So unfunded retirement benefit program

 

Again, as you seem to realize, it's complicated.

 

Take one basic part of the pie. Roll the clock back to just the year 2000 or so, DOW at 10K.

 

Wall Street and all the top pension experts swore up and down that 10% a year would be a safe assumption for the market. Pretend we had a million dollars then. Normal assumption compounded would be that we'd have 3.7 Million today. Instead we have 1.5 Million, a shortfall of about 60%

 

So, I just showed you a lot of the difference right there. We could have had George Washington and Abe Lincoln as the city fathers and they would not have been able to change those factors. Who would have ever thought that Wall Street and the GOP could lead us into so large a hole? No one. The chances were actually given as something unbelievably tiny...but it happened. 

 

So it's a bit ironic for you to now look back and say "wow, anyone should have seen this coming"....don't you think? You must be a billionaire, having bought Apple Stock 10 years ago......knowing what it was gonna do.

:unsure:



#138 zzrider

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:10 PM

These funds are looking at staggering losses of up to 90%!  Now I ask you this - how is this possible?  You don't typically lose 90% of anything overnight, and I've read nothing to indicate that Detroit found itself staring at these losses by sudden suprise.  Can we agree so far?

 

Ok.  So unfunded retirement benefit program

 

Again, as you seem to realize, it's complicated.

 

Take one basic part of the pie. Roll the clock back to just the year 2000 or so, DOW at 10K.

 

Wall Street and all the top pension experts swore up and down that 10% a year would be a safe assumption for the market. Pretend we had a million dollars then. Normal assumption compounded would be that we'd have 3.7 Million today. Instead we have 1.5 Million, a shortfall of about 60%

 

So, I just showed you a lot of the difference right there. We could have had George Washington and Abe Lincoln as the city fathers and they would not have been able to change those factors. Who would have ever thought that Wall Street and the GOP could lead us into so large a hole? No one. The chances were actually given as something unbelievably tiny...but it happened. 

 

So it's a bit ironic for you to now look back and say "wow, anyone should have seen this coming"....don't you think? You must be a billionaire, having bought Apple Stock 10 years ago......knowing what it was gonna do.

:unsure:

 

 

 I remember the IT bubble and the pop in 2000 quite well.  I was working in the field and profitted from it quite nicely while it lasted.  And yes Craig, I knew at that time that it was unequivocally unsustainable.  Of course I wanted it to last forever, but I knew in my gut that it wouldn't and couldn't, and I was not surprised in the least when it popped.  Same thing with the real estate bubble that followed and ended in '07.   I remember conversations with my wife, when we would watch people buying ridiculously overpriced McMansions at the top of the market.  We knew they were going to loose their asses, and sure enough, they did.  I remember specific conversations with my wife were we discussed wishing we could sell our own house in late '06 just to the rake in the profit before the inevitable crash, except then we'd only have to either waste money renting or buy another house at the same overinflated prices.

 

Picking individual winners, like Apple stock, isn't the same thing as being able to identify a clearly unsustainable macro pattern, which is obvious to anyone who is paying attention.

 

So I don't buy the excuse that these Wall Street big wigs and pension fund MBAs honestly thought that 8-10% compounded returns was a reasonable and sustainable expectation.  I simply cannot attribute that to mere stupidity since reality was so plainly evident to a grunt in the trenches like me. 



#139 craigiri

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:28 PM

So I don't buy the excuse that these Wall Street big wigs and pension fund MBAs honestly thought that 8-10% compounded returns was a reasonable and sustainable expectation.  I simply cannot attribute that to mere stupidity since reality was so plainly evident to a grunt in the trenches like me. 

You must be the only one, then........

 

1925-2004 Average annual rates of return

Small Stocks 12.7%
Large Stocks 10.4%

 

So, a 75+ year history, which includes the Great Depression, was too generous to plan to???

 

That's fantastic, ZZ. These were not some figures cooked up by a black dude in Detroit. They were believed by virtually ALL the top economists and wall street pension consultants and planners. 

 

I have claimed - and continue to - that MANY factors, a perfect storm, are responsible. As I said before, Honest Abe could have been in charge the result would not be any different. 



#140 mikewof

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:47 PM

What's in Detroit - the City of Detroit - that you would invest in?

 

Dual-use commercial/residential real estate.

Something like Riverheath in Appleton, Wisconsin, http://riverheath.com/townhomes.php where they took (literally) an industrial waste site of an old paper mill, got out the contaminated soil and now they're putting in a dual-use commercial/residential development. The era of big industry is probably gone for a while, but small industry can bring a city back. If the hamlet is reasonably self-contained; townhouses, condos, market, coffee shop, etc., then artist types have shown they are willing to take the plunge, especially if the price is reasonable, I saw this happen in the tri-state area around NYC, even in Newark.


Detroit is going to be good for small commerce like that. Pittsburgh came back, Oakland is finding its place, Detroit will come back too.



#141 zzrider

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:23 AM

Craig: the stock market != the economy. Don't feel bad, many people fall into this delusion.

Now, GDP isn't a perfect metric, but it is certainly a far better measure of the general state of the economy than the stock market.

Perhaps you could tell us when GDP growth last maintained a consistent 8-10% compound growth, net debt expansion, of course?

#142 craigiri

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:38 AM

Sorry, but pension income and planning is not tied to GDP, but to the actual projected returns on the pension fund investments. 8% was considered conservative, 10% normal and 12% doable. 

 

This is no longer the case.

 

Again, I am not claiming this is the single reason towns are going broke. But it sure is a major contributor to the situation of how quickly they default.



#143 zzrider

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:44 AM

That's my point. How is it reasonable to expect perpetual 8-10% gains in the stock market when the overall economy isn't capable of sustaining compound growth like that?

#144 Olsonist

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:14 AM

ZZ, that's it in a nutshell.

#145 Dog

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 10:40 AM

That kind of inverted local economy is a symptom of a collapsed economy. The city workers are often on a contract, and due to the unfunded liabilities that was brought up before, it leaves the city scrambling to keep up with their pension obligations and existing contracts.
 
Also, you write that 47% of Detroit's population is illiterate, apparently without doing one tiny bit of research to find if this is true or not. Turns out the statistic you've cited is about twenty years old, taken questionably long before Detroit's current problems and if you had looked into the study itself you would have seen that it didn't claim to have an actual literacy measurement for the county.
 
http://blog.datadriv...tes-in-detroit/
 
If you had bothered to look up the actual literacy rate, you would have seen that about 12% (not 47%) lack "basic prose literacy skills" and that's with a 95% confidence interval for Wayne County.
 
http://nces.ed.gov/n...eEstimates.aspx
 
If your opinions are based on obvious errors like this, what else in your opinions needs to be adjusted?

Mike... Speaking of obvious errors, why would you cite Wayne county literacy statistics when trying to make a point about Detroit literacy rates?

The literacy rates are by County only. that's why your 47% "stat" is bullshit, and you would have known that had you looked into it. The authors of that ridiculous study you cited had no way to actually derive literacy below the county granularity other than a hand-waving argument based on economic factors.

Further, with Detroit being the biggest city in Wayne County, it has about 50% of the population, so at the 95% confidence, even if every other city in Wayne County had half of the literacy rate of Detroit, that would still leave Detroit's literacy rate well under half of your ridiculous statistic.

Oh wait, I just used math, numbers and all that, and I'm a lefty, must make the whole field of basic math a librul conspiracy.


Here's what we have ... you built your argument around disinformation that you brought into this thread, which in my opinion invalidates the rest your opinions in this thread.

If my opinion, which is that Detroit’s government fucked up, is invalid what do you believe is the valid reason for Detroit’s bankruptcy?
BTW… Detroit’s population is not half of Wayne county’s.

First off, Detroit's population has fallen, it's currently about 40% of the population of Wayne County. But the most recent literacy study I could find was from 2003, it might be another few years before another comprehensive study. Back in 2003, the population of Detroit was closer to 50% of Wayne County.

As for your question to Detroit's bankruptcy, it's because they geared up heavy for the go-go years and the nature of pensions until recently was pay-as-you-go, so now they're left with the unfunded, pay-as-you-go liabilities of pensions, infrastructure bonds and existing worker contracts. Add to that, they have the massive cost of managing a city that was built for a lot of industry and the revenue isn't there.

And Detroit is actually doing something that might be smart, they're allowing the conversion of liabilities of insurance and blight back into open space. http://ideas.blogs.n...-farmland/?_r=0

But for now, it's like Detroit is forced to deliver pizzas with a 18-wheeler ... it takes a lot of money to manage an infrastructure like that, that isn't producing much revenue.

Now, how did Detroit find themselves here? Some blame has to go to not putting energy to diversifying their industries. But a big reason for their current situation is just bad luck ... if I had to pick an industry that would have been stable I would have chosen the auto/truck industry way before the heatlhcare and service sectors. But it didn't work out like that. It's Monday Morning quarterbacking to write how they should have done things differently. Detroit approached their industry as well as any city could have expected, when industry asked them to build out, Detroit built out. When industry needed them add services, Detroit added services.

Maybe the moral of the story is the old cliche in journalism ... "Never give your heart to a newspaper because it will break it in the end."

or,

"Never be industry's bitch because they'll fuck you and leave you in the end."

That's what industry did to Detroit. Detroit gave industry all the blowjobs they asked for, and in the end they left Detroit for the younger slut of globalization. The industry suits still have a functionally decent life in Ann Arbor and Grosse Pointe, but now they have other supply chains around the world to make those products with JIT delivery and fast logistics replacing the dirty-fingernailed workers in Detroit.

Detroit will be back, they're already on the way back. If I had money to invest, I would invest in Detroit. That's a hundred-year infrastructure, and it can take in just about any industry that can expand into it.
Detroit’s governance has been inept misguided and corrupt. Detroit is bankrupt today because city government was hostile to businesses so they moved out. Detroit is bankrupt because the high crime rated drove out residents with the means to move. Detroit is bankrupt because under its Democratic government the city simply became a bad place to live and do business, simple as that. You can fixate over some dubious statistic or other while ignoring the real issue, but that’s the bottom line.

Maybe the city will be back, I doubt it. I think they killed it, and other cities are on the same path. Hell, were on the same path nationally.

#146 learningj24

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 12:47 PM

"Detroit’s governance has been inept misguided and corrupt. Detroit is bankrupt today because city government was hostile to businesses so they moved out. Detroit is bankrupt because the high crime rated drove out residents with the means to move. Detroit is bankrupt because under its Democratic government the city simply became a bad place to live and do business, simple as that. You can fixate over some dubious statistic or other while ignoring the real issue, but that’s the bottom line.


Maybe the city will be back, I doubt it. I think they killed it, and other cities are on the same path. Hell, were on the same path nationally. "

 

Simple answers to complex problem that support a particular political position are quite probably not going to lead to workable solutions.



#147 Dog

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:23 PM

"Detroit’s governance has been inept misguided and corrupt. Detroit is bankrupt today because city government was hostile to businesses so they moved out. Detroit is bankrupt because the high crime rated drove out residents with the means to move. Detroit is bankrupt because under its Democratic government the city simply became a bad place to live and do business, simple as that. You can fixate over some dubious statistic or other while ignoring the real issue, but that’s the bottom line.

Maybe the city will be back, I doubt it. I think they killed it, and other cities are on the same path. Hell, were on the same path nationally. "
 
Simple answers to complex problem that support a particular political position are quite probably not going to lead to workable solutions.

Stein’s law… “If something cannot go on forever, it will stop”.
Detroit is what happens when the big government entitlement state expands beyond the ability of the private sector to support it. Same thing happened in Europe, it really is not that complicated.

#148 d'ranger

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:27 PM

Europe, it's just like Detroit, only bigger, like a big country.  It really doesn't get any simpler than that. 



#149 learningj24

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:40 PM

"Detroit’s governance has been inept misguided and corrupt. Detroit is bankrupt today because city government was hostile to businesses so they moved out. Detroit is bankrupt because the high crime rated drove out residents with the means to move. Detroit is bankrupt because under its Democratic government the city simply became a bad place to live and do business, simple as that. You can fixate over some dubious statistic or other while ignoring the real issue, but that’s the bottom line.

Maybe the city will be back, I doubt it. I think they killed it, and other cities are on the same path. Hell, were on the same path nationally. "
 
Simple answers to complex problem that support a particular political position are quite probably not going to lead to workable solutions.

Stein’s law… “If something cannot go on forever, it will stop”.
Detroit is what happens when the big government entitlement state expands beyond the ability of the private sector to support it. Same thing happened in Europe, it really is not that complicated.

You could just as easily say that Detroit is what happens when you allow white flight from the inner city by supporting suburbs.  Subsidizing the flight of the tax base by providing support systems (sewer, police, water etc) while losing the tax revenues would be just as simple an explaination.  And just as wrong because of it's simplicity.  Failure of inner cities is a lot more complex than ANY bumpersticker explaination.  My personal predisposition is to weight Brown v Board more heavily than Great Society or the global manufacturing resurgence of the 70's but that's just weighting, not discounting factors.

 

And who the hell is Stein to claim a "law" of a redundancy?  "if it's broke, it won't work"?  For pity's sake.

 

How about a "Learning" law, "When discussing human behavior, the simpler the explaination, the more likely it is to be wrong".



#150 craigiri

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:48 PM

That's my point. How is it reasonable to expect perpetual 8-10% gains in the stock market when the overall economy isn't capable of sustaining compound growth like that?

 

Well, this is a great game which has been played for decades or centuries and an entirely different discussion.

 

For instance, during times of slavery, cheap immigrant labor and large income inequality it is VERY possible for this to be since only a very small percentage of the population owned securities. But, as with other stuff (lifestyle, etc.) when everyone gets into the game it's not sustainable.

 

However, the "free market capitalists" have been crowing forever that everyone has a chance to be on top. Everyone can live a middle class or upper class lifestyle. Problem is, under our current system this is simply not possible. The entire world cannot eat steak....

 

Here is an explanation of some of it. Owning a security is NOT the same as GDP.....one is forward looking ownership and the other backward looking flow.

http://www.forbes.co...rns-versus-gdp/



#151 craigiri

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:49 PM

Europe, it's just like Detroit, only bigger, like a big country.  It really doesn't get any simpler than that. 

 

Which is why the worker in Germany is so much better off, paid twice as much and has health care.

 

Thanks, Doggie, you are 100% correct. Something is wrong.



#152 mikewof

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:52 PM

"Detroit’s governance has been inept misguided and corrupt. Detroit is bankrupt today because city government was hostile to businesses so they moved out. Detroit is bankrupt because the high crime rated drove out residents with the means to move. Detroit is bankrupt because under its Democratic government the city simply became a bad place to live and do business, simple as that. You can fixate over some dubious statistic or other while ignoring the real issue, but that’s the bottom line.

Maybe the city will be back, I doubt it. I think they killed it, and other cities are on the same path. Hell, were on the same path nationally. "
 
Simple answers to complex problem that support a particular political position are quite probably not going to lead to workable solutions.

Stein’s law… “If something cannot go on forever, it will stop”.
Detroit is what happens when the big government entitlement state expands beyond the ability of the private sector to support it. Same thing happened in Europe, it really is not that complicated.

 

I love that segments of your argument keep being demonstrated as wrong, but you just cling to the flotsam of your broken thesis like it's still a functional boat.

You have done little to nothing to prove this crazy theory of yours. All the reliable evidence I've seen in this thread seems to point in the opposite direction ... that Detroit is what happens when big industry expands a local government infrastructure and then stops adding the life-giving revenue to keep it going. It really is not that complicated.

 

Yeah, I get it, your narrative fits your world view and lets you sleep at night knowing that your political idealism is coherent. As long as you don't mind that it doesn't jibe with reality, I guess you're okay.



#153 Dog

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:32 PM

"Detroit’s governance has been inept misguided and corrupt. Detroit is bankrupt today because city government was hostile to businesses so they moved out. Detroit is bankrupt because the high crime rated drove out residents with the means to move. Detroit is bankrupt because under its Democratic government the city simply became a bad place to live and do business, simple as that. You can fixate over some dubious statistic or other while ignoring the real issue, but that’s the bottom line.

Maybe the city will be back, I doubt it. I think they killed it, and other cities are on the same path. Hell, were on the same path nationally. "
 
Simple answers to complex problem that support a particular political position are quite probably not going to lead to workable solutions.

Stein’s law… “If something cannot go on forever, it will stop”.
Detroit is what happens when the big government entitlement state expands beyond the ability of the private sector to support it. Same thing happened in Europe, it really is not that complicated.

 
I love that segments of your argument keep being demonstrated as wrong, but you just cling to the flotsam of your broken thesis like it's still a functional boat.

You have done little to nothing to prove this crazy theory of yours. All the reliable evidence I've seen in this thread seems to point in the opposite direction ... that Detroit is what happens when big industry expands a local government infrastructure and then stops adding the life-giving revenue to keep it going. It really is not that complicated.
 
Yeah, I get it, your narrative fits your world view and lets you sleep at night knowing that your political idealism is coherent. As long as you don't mind that it doesn't jibe with reality, I guess you're okay.
It wasn’t just big industry that stopped giving the “life giving revenue” it was almost all industry and a majority of the population. And what could prompt industry to abandon huge investments in physical plant and move out. Simple, they found a more hospitable business environment in other municipalities.
What could prompt 60% of the population to up and leave Detroit, thousands of them simply abandoning their homes in the process? That would be safer and more hospitable living environments in other municipalities.

From Coleman Young to Kwame Kilpatrick Detroit's government sucked that city dry. You’re the one clinging to a broken dreams Mike. The big government entitlement model is failing all over; you only have to open your eyes.

#154 craigiri

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:51 PM

It wasn’t just big industry that stopped giving the “life giving revenue” it was almost all industry and a majority of the population. And what could prompt industry to abandon huge investments in physical plant and move out. Simple, they found a more hospitable business environment in other municipalities.
What could prompt 60% of the population to up and leave Detroit, thousands of them simply abandoning their homes in the process? That would be safer and more hospitable living environments in other municipalities.

 

Time for you to read up on Ronald Reagan........

 

Long story short - he's well known for destroying the rust belt by getting rid of tariffs which protected our industry, deregulating everything so the biggies could buy up (and fire everyone) the old industries, union busting and much more. Under his reign the midwest pretty much dried up.

 

What you see now was a LONG time in the making. Enjoy, as you seem to be behind the types of politicians who champion outsourcing and union busting.



#155 squirel

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 01:28 AM

I've found an idea for rebuilding Detroit's population base that makes too much sense to ever be adopted. What kind of people would move into Detroit? Immigrants from places that are so much worse! It could be as simple as providing a path for citizenship involving living in and rebuilding Detroit.

Thanks to FREEP columnist Brian Dickerson for the idea. Detroit could be a pilot program for a larger, national program rebuilding other blighted areas.

#156 Mark K

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:26 AM

 They need to bulldoze and minimally landscape large sections and re-organize as a much smaller city. It might grow again someday. 



#157 mikewof

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:48 AM

It wasn’t just big industry that stopped giving the “life giving revenue” it was almost all industry and a majority of the population. And what could prompt industry to abandon huge investments in physical plant and move out. Simple, they found a more hospitable business environment in other municipalities.

 

 

If industry has jobs, people stay and people move in. That's reality. Detroit isn't dead, it did keep some industry and gain new industry, regardless your theory. But it became a more educated city, and after industry changed it replaced production jobs with service type jobs in the vehicle industry, healthcare, finance, etc.. There are still production jobs there, but it's a different city.

Production type industry abandoned Detroit for the same reason it abandoned other city, because short-term profits have trumped long-term investments in our country. They could increase profits by sourcing components from Mexico and Asia, in some cases outsourcing entire vehicle lines there. And of course, there is an argument that we needed to do that, to purge our low-tech jobs so that we can gain high-tech jobs, but China has demonstrated the fallacy of that argument. Instead of packing up (literally) our factories and tooling and machining onto container ships, we instead needed to modernize those factories and gradually transition to advanced industry.

Instead of shipping our textile industry out we needed to modernize it and gradually leverage that large-scale 2-D robotics to deposition for PV and consumer wafer products. Instead of shipping our vehicle industry out we needed to modernize and and gradually leverage that assembly line model to robotics so that the line in Detroit isn't collecting spiderwebs while Hyundai and Toyota have 24/7 robotic production lines in the Sunbelt.

You seem woefully ignorant of the reality that we you lose an industry you are then 10 or 20 years behind your competition. We couldn't create a large PV industry or advanced batteries industries or install square miles of titanium refineries even if we wanted to. We've lost the market to China, Korea and Russia and we no longer have the customers, the distribution and increasingly the expertise. For example, when I started in physics back in the 1990s it was unheard of for Chinese and Russian students to go back to China and Russia for work after they were done with their training. Now they can make more money over there, so they leave. We still hold onto the Italian, Spanish and Indian physicists and engineers, but we now have to compete with home countries for Russian, Chinese and German scientists and engineers. And Japanese scientists and engineers? Forget about that, they're practically extinct in the USA, unless they were here before 2000 or just prefer our more family-centered lifestyle.

These companies didn't find a more hospitable business environment like you claim, that's just wrong. They outsourced production and contracting and found all sorts of new problems in quality control and logistics that took them years to iron out. They found a CHEAPER business environment, and that fit into their idea of short-term profits over long-term investment.

 

 

What could prompt 60% of the population to up and leave Detroit, thousands of them simply abandoning their homes in the process? That would be safer and more hospitable living environments in other municipalities.

 

 

Holy crap, I didn't realize how deep you are into this thing of yours. That's so far the most ridiculous thing you wrote on this thread. People left Detroit because their production jobs left Detroit and they couldn't make payments on a mortgage with nothing but unemployment (which runs out eventually) and the a few scraps that pass for jobs in a collapsed economy like delivering pizza to the outer suburbs and doing telemarketing.

You write that people left due to crime, but crime in Detroit didn't suddenly shoot up like you seem to claim ...

Michigan-Detroit-Crime-Trends.png

Again, reality ... people left their homes in Detroit even having paid off considerable chunks of their mortgage. When you don't have a job to pay for your expenses, you bite the bullet and do something that normal people hate to du ... you pull the kids out of their schools, away from their friends, you leave your church and your friends and your family and the garden in the back yard and you leave to a new place. This isn't due to defect in character or in city, it's due to jobs that vaporized.

 

 

From Coleman Young to Kwame Kilpatrick Detroit's government sucked that city dry. You’re the one clinging to a broken dreams Mike. The big government entitlement model is failing all over; you only have to open your eyes.

 

 

"Big government entitlement model"? You have already been ripped to shreds on that. What kind of life do you live that you're so disconnected from the realities of daily life that you think that jobs exist for anyone who wants one bad enough, and that people can keep going if only they have a change in mindset? Production line workers often didn't have college degrees, they had a specialized skill set like plastic welding or spot welding or sheet metal quality control, etc.. When their jobs left, they had to leave to completely foreign places to replace those jobs. Sometimes they got lucky and found new jobs in other plants in the Sunbelt, other times they did what they could in other industries, sometimes they even do well in new industries like gas drilling. But your "entitlement" argument is so woefully deluded that you're just begging for karma to bitchslap you or someone you love with a dose of reality at some point.



#158 mikewof

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:56 AM

I've found an idea for rebuilding Detroit's population base that makes too much sense to ever be adopted. What kind of people would move into Detroit? Immigrants from places that are so much worse! It could be as simple as providing a path for citizenship involving living in and rebuilding Detroit.

Thanks to FREEP columnist Brian Dickerson for the idea. Detroit could be a pilot program for a larger, national program rebuilding other blighted areas.

 

Good luck selling that one. European immigrants aren't terribly interested in moving here. Asian have increasing opportunity where they are, Indians and Pakistanis are either from the class that sees them through to a decent life in their home country, or are from a class so despairing that the idea of moving to the USA is as far-fetched as becoming a rock-star. Canadians have a decent deal where they are. The immigrants we have are Mexicans and Latin Americans, and even our progressive President hasn't made it easy on them, Obama is deporting immigrants faster than even Bush Jr..

We have plenty of immigrants that would be more than happy to farm that newly-turned under Detroit land, and work low-paying service jobs, but they speak Spanish, were born in another country, and their skin is brown ... And that combination is apparently poison in the United States of America today because we're collectively a nation of classist assholes.



#159 mikewof

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:59 AM

 They need to bulldoze and minimally landscape large sections and re-organize as a much smaller city. It might grow again someday. 

 

They're doing that, as much to lower their infrastructure maintenance costs as anything else.

 

http://ideas.blogs.n...-farmland/?_r=0



#160 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:33 AM

 They need to bulldoze and minimally landscape large sections and re-organize as a much smaller city. It might grow again someday. 

 

They're doing that, as much to lower their infrastructure maintenance costs as anything else.

 

http://ideas.blogs.n...-farmland/?_r=0

Austerity like as in Greece? So how's about a bail out sponsored by authorized loan shark (FED)? 



#161 Dog

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:04 AM

It wasn’t just big industry that stopped giving the “life giving revenue” it was almost all industry and a majority of the population. And what could prompt industry to abandon huge investments in physical plant and move out. Simple, they found a more hospitable business environment in other municipalities.

 
 
If industry has jobs, people stay and people move in. That's reality. Detroit isn't dead, it did keep some industry and gain new industry, regardless your theory. But it became a more educated city, and after industry changed it replaced production jobs with service type jobs in the vehicle industry, healthcare, finance, etc.. There are still production jobs there, but it's a different city.

Production type industry abandoned Detroit for the same reason it abandoned other city, because short-term profits have trumped long-term investments in our country. They could increase profits by sourcing components from Mexico and Asia, in some cases outsourcing entire vehicle lines there. And of course, there is an argument that we needed to do that, to purge our low-tech jobs so that we can gain high-tech jobs, but China has demonstrated the fallacy of that argument. Instead of packing up (literally) our factories and tooling and machining onto container ships, we instead needed to modernize those factories and gradually transition to advanced industry.

Instead of shipping our textile industry out we needed to modernize it and gradually leverage that large-scale 2-D robotics to deposition for PV and consumer wafer products. Instead of shipping our vehicle industry out we needed to modernize and and gradually leverage that assembly line model to robotics so that the line in Detroit isn't collecting spiderwebs while Hyundai and Toyota have 24/7 robotic production lines in the Sunbelt.

You seem woefully ignorant of the reality that we you lose an industry you are then 10 or 20 years behind your competition. We couldn't create a large PV industry or advanced batteries industries or install square miles of titanium refineries even if we wanted to. We've lost the market to China, Korea and Russia and we no longer have the customers, the distribution and increasingly the expertise. For example, when I started in physics back in the 1990s it was unheard of for Chinese and Russian students to go back to China and Russia for work after they were done with their training. Now they can make more money over there, so they leave. We still hold onto the Italian, Spanish and Indian physicists and engineers, but we now have to compete with home countries for Russian, Chinese and German scientists and engineers. And Japanese scientists and engineers? Forget about that, they're practically extinct in the USA, unless they were here before 2000 or just prefer our more family-centered lifestyle.

These companies didn't find a more hospitable business environment like you claim, that's just wrong. They outsourced production and contracting and found all sorts of new problems in quality control and logistics that took them years to iron out. They found a CHEAPER business environment, and that fit into their idea of short-term profits over long-term investment.
 
 

W

hat could prompt 60% of the population to up and leave Detroit, thousands of them simply abandoning their homes in the process? That would be safer and more hospitable living environments in other municipalities.

 
 
Holy crap, I didn't realize how deep you are into this thing of yours. That's so far the most ridiculous thing you wrote on this thread. People left Detroit because their production jobs left Detroit and they couldn't make payments on a mortgage with nothing but unemployment (which runs out eventually) and the a few scraps that pass for jobs in a collapsed economy like delivering pizza to the outer suburbs and doing telemarketing.

You write that people left due to crime, but crime in Detroit didn't suddenly shoot up like you seem to claim ...

Michigan-Detroit-Crime-Trends.png

Again, reality ... people left their homes in Detroit even having paid off considerable chunks of their mortgage. When you don't have a job to pay for your expenses, you bite the bullet and do something that normal people hate to du ... you pull the kids out of their schools, away from their friends, you leave your church and your friends and your family and the garden in the back yard and you leave to a new place. This isn't due to defect in character or in city, it's due to jobs that vaporized.
 
 

From Coleman Young to Kwame Kilpatrick Detroit's government sucked that city dry. You’re the one clinging to a broken dreams Mike. The big government entitlement model is failing all over; you only have to open your eyes.

 
 
"Big government entitlement model"? You have already been ripped to shreds on that. What kind of life do you live that you're so disconnected from the realities of daily life that you think that jobs exist for anyone who wants one bad enough, and that people can keep going if only they have a change in mindset? Production line workers often didn't have college degrees, they had a specialized skill set like plastic welding or spot welding or sheet metal quality control, etc.. When their jobs left, they had to leave to completely foreign places to replace those jobs. Sometimes they got lucky and found new jobs in other plants in the Sunbelt, other times they did what they could in other industries, sometimes they even do well in new industries like gas drilling. But your "entitlement" argument is so woefully deluded that you're just begging for karma to bitchslap you or someone you love with a dose of reality at some point.

Where it start... If the 60% of Detroit’s population moved to an entirely different market you might have a point but they just moved to the suburbs beyond 8 mile road. Like the businesses that left, they simply voted with their feet and moved beyond the reach of Detroit's burdensome and corrupt government.

I’m disappointed that a scientist would post a graph of declining crime numbers for a city with a declining population like it was indicative of a declining crime rate.

It’s true that Detroit’s government was faced with challenges like many other cities faced. But unlike other cities that adapted and survived, Detroit’s government failed miserably.

Nice try Mike

#162 Saorsa

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:38 AM

I’m disappointed that a scientist would post a graph of declining crime numbers for a city with a declining population like it was indicative of a declining crime rate.

It’s true that Detroit’s government was faced with challenges like many other cities faced. But unlike other cities that adapted and survived, Detroit’s government failed miserably.

Nice try Mike

It's the nature of modern science.



#163 craigiri

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:02 PM

Doggie, your sentence from the court today is to read this. It was written just for you:

http://www.usatoday....ruptcy/2593001/

 

"Reality: The average annual pension for retired Detroit police officers and firefighters is about $34,000, roughly half that of such pensions in Los Angeles and Chicago, 25% less than in Kansas City, Mo., and 36% below benefits for those in Dallas. Retirees from Detroit's general city pension fund receive, on average, less than $20,000 a year."



#164 squirel

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:04 PM

I've found an idea for rebuilding Detroit's population base that makes too much sense to ever be adopted. What kind of people would move into Detroit? Immigrants from places that are so much worse! It could be as simple as providing a path for citizenship involving living in and rebuilding Detroit.

Thanks to FREEP columnist Brian Dickerson for the idea. Detroit could be a pilot program for a larger, national program rebuilding other blighted areas.

 

Good luck selling that one. European immigrants aren't terribly interested in moving here. Asian have increasing opportunity where they are, Indians and Pakistanis are either from the class that sees them through to a decent life in their home country, or are from a class so despairing that the idea of moving to the USA is as far-fetched as becoming a rock-star. Canadians have a decent deal where they are. The immigrants we have are Mexicans and Latin Americans, and even our progressive President hasn't made it easy on them, Obama is deporting immigrants faster than even Bush Jr..

We have plenty of immigrants that would be more than happy to farm that newly-turned under Detroit land, and work low-paying service jobs, but they speak Spanish, were born in another country, and their skin is brown ... And that combination is apparently poison in the United States of America today because we're collectively a nation of classist assholes.

 

You need to emigrate. I wonder if we should start a kickstarter account to get you the fuck out of this terrible country filled with assholes.

 

But first, I'll simply see if you can answer a few questions:

 

  • the name of the city next door to Detroit to the west?
  • the population of that city with an Arabic speaking background?
  • the number of Visas currently available for all Arabic speaking countries?
  • the number of ex/internally displaced persons who speak Arabic and have the assets to help rebuild Detroit?


#165 squirel

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:18 PM

Doggie, your sentence from the court today is to read this. It was written just for you:

http://www.usatoday....ruptcy/2593001/

 

"Reality: The average annual pension for retired Detroit police officers and firefighters is about $34,000, roughly half that of such pensions in Los Angeles and Chicago, 25% less than in Kansas City, Mo., and 36% below benefits for those in Dallas. Retirees from Detroit's general city pension fund receive, on average, less than $20,000 a year."

 

What's the finances of Detroit reality? It's a measure of your lack of understanding of the problem that you would even post that quote.

 

Reality: As low as those pension numbers are, Detroit can't afford them. And that is a measure of the income stream from the property taxes and the income taxes of the taxable property and taxable incomes of what's left in Detroit. 

 

Reality: It's not Republicans or Democrats that have failed Detroit, it's not the residents or industry or business that left Detroit, it's the people that stayed and voted that created the problem.



#166 Saorsa

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:37 PM

Doggie, your sentence from the court today is to read this. It was written just for you:

http://www.usatoday....ruptcy/2593001/

 

"Reality: The average annual pension for retired Detroit police officers and firefighters is about $34,000, roughly half that of such pensions in Los Angeles and Chicago, 25% less than in Kansas City, Mo., and 36% below benefits for those in Dallas. Retirees from Detroit's general city pension fund receive, on average, less than $20,000 a year."

 

What would be the current benefit for a retiree under the current plan.

 

Using the average pension includes a lot of old folks whose pension may well have been fixed in the '70s and '80s given that police and firefighters usually have a generous retirement age.



#167 craigiri

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:11 PM

Don't fret, my fellow republicans!

 

You are winning!

http://www.huffingto..._n_3666594.html

 

The race to the bottom continues, cheered on by the doggies and squirrels of this world. The new creed is "I don't have anything, so it's only fair that THEY don't have anything either". Of course, this does not apply to the top 2% of income...they are apparently the only ones who not only deserve what they have, but should have more.

 

That's the Ryan/Romney/GOP plan in a nutshell. Really. 



#168 Dog

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:34 PM

Don't fret, my fellow republicans!
 
You are winning!
http://www.huffingto..._n_3666594.html
 
The race to the bottom continues, cheered on by the doggies and squirrels of this world. The new creed is "I don't have anything, so it's only fair that THEY don't have anything either". Of course, this does not apply to the top 2% of income...they are apparently the only ones who not only deserve what they have, but should have more.
 
That's the Ryan/Romney/GOP plan in a nutshell. Really.

Republicans control one half of one branch of government. I'm not interested in defending Republican fiscal management it has been pretty bad but the current increase in poverty and government dependancy is occuring under mostly Democratic governance.

#169 craigiri

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:42 PM

Republicans control one half of one branch of government. I'm not interested in defending Republican fiscal management it has been pretty bad but the current increase in poverty and government dependancy is occuring under mostly Democratic governance.

 

That is certainly wrong considering that the GOP controlled the Congress for a vast majority of the time since 1994. But whatever....

 

It's not a matter of the governance or political parties, it's more a matter of the policies or world views. It was fairly clear in the last elections that the GOP championed giving even more tax breaks to the wealthiest while cutting anything and everything which would let regular people have such opportunities.

 

I'm a Big Picture guy......and although two parties are not enough and plenty of Dems are scary, there is absolutely no comparison when it comes to the basic policies or even the rhetoric. The Dems are for lifting all boats while the GOP want just the rich to stay in the lifeboat and the others to go down with the ship.

 

Sure, a gross generalization, but it's fantastic for anyone to call the GOP the party of either conservatism or the champions of the middle class and average working men and women. 



#170 Dog

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

Republicans control one half of one branch of government. I'm not interested in defending Republican fiscal management it has been pretty bad but the current increase in poverty and government dependancy is occuring under mostly Democratic governance.

 
That is certainly wrong considering that the GOP controlled the Congress for a vast majority of the time since 1994. But whatever....
 
It's not a matter of the governance or political parties, it's more a matter of the policies or world views. It was fairly clear in the last elections that the GOP championed giving even more tax breaks to the wealthiest while cutting anything and everything which would let regular people have such opportunities.
 
I'm a Big Picture guy......and although two parties are not enough and plenty of Dems are scary, there is absolutely no comparison when it comes to the basic policies or even the rhetoric. The Dems are for lifting all boats while the GOP want just the rich to stay in the lifeboat and the others to go down with the ship.
 
Sure, a gross generalization, but it's fantastic for anyone to call the GOP the party of either conservatism or the champions of the middle class and average working men and women.
You forgot Republicans want to poison the environment and throw granny off the cliff.

#171 d'ranger

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 06:16 PM

http://www.usatoday....ruptcy/2593001/

 

Warning: may cause cognitive dissonance. Do not operate heavy posting while reading.  Side effects include confusion, headaches and general malaise.  Some readers have reported instances of giving a shit.  If negative effects have not dissipated within four hours proper application of beer is recommended. 



#172 mikewof

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:44 PM

Where it start... If the 60% of Detroit’s population moved to an entirely different market you might have a point but they just moved to the suburbs beyond 8 mile road. Like the businesses that left, they simply voted with their feet and moved beyond the reach of Detroit's burdensome and corrupt government.

 

You're making things up again. You've written another lie. Wayne County had a decrease of about a quarter million people from the 2000 census to the 2010 census. The county (including Detroit and the suburbs you describe) had a population DECREASE of about 12% over the last decade.

And neighboring Macomb County (which actually absorbed Grosse Pointe Shores from Wayne County) had practically the same population over the last decade, http://quickfacts.ce...s/26/26099.html

So you write that people moved from Detroit into the neighboring suburbs, but the actual U.S. Census doesn't support that at all, unless your idea of a "suburb" of Detroit is a place like North Dakota or Georgia. Again, your theory is squashed by reality.

 

I’m disappointed that a scientist would post a graph of declining crime numbers for a city with a declining population like it was indicative of a declining crime rate.

 

I couldn't find a rate graph for Detroit over the decade, but you can do that in your head from the graph I posted. And apparently you couldn't either, or you would have posted it. The actual crime numbers, given the population decrease over the decade, don't show the crazy crime spike you suggest. Detroit WAS a dangerous city and REMAINS a dangerous city. You suggested that these people moved away because the crime suddenly shot up. The crime is high is Detroit in part because the working-class economy partly collapsed.

And your theory further fails because there are cities that are by various measures more dangerous than Detroit, and they since they have managed to hold onto industry, their population hasn't shrunk like Detroit's has ...

crime-rates-in-us.jpg

Part of being a scientist means having a sense for bullshit theories. Your theory that Detroit collapsed due to liberal politics is just bullshit. It fails on every level.

It’s true that Detroit’s government was faced with challenges like many other cities faced. But unlike other cities that adapted and survived, Detroit’s government failed miserably.

Nice try Mike

 

Okay, please show me a city that "faced the challenges of Detroit" (i.e. loss of industry, jobs) over the same time frame (about 2000) but succeeded due to good government. You seem to claim that Detroit's government is the problem, but in many ways, they did a lot of things very right in the face of an economic catastrophe. It's true that Detroit lost a lot of low-education jobs, but Detroit has held on with higher end jobs in the service, finance and health industries.

 

If Detroit has such a broken government, how do you explain that Detroit is one of the top five cities in the country for job growth in the last couple years? If that liberal government is so broken and ineffective, how do you explain all those new jobs?

 

http://www.huffingto..._n_1503151.html

 

Again, your argument fails when reality is allowed to trump emotion.



#173 mikewof

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:47 PM

http://www.usatoday....ruptcy/2593001/

 

Warning: may cause cognitive dissonance. Do not operate heavy posting while reading.  Side effects include confusion, headaches and general malaise.  Some readers have reported instances of giving a shit.  If negative effects have not dissipated within four hours proper application of beer is recommended. 

 

Additional Product Warning: Do not attempt to read this if your SA alias is "Dog" and your hobby is to present fantasy as reality.



#174 mikewof

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:51 PM

Doggie, your sentence from the court today is to read this. It was written just for you:

http://www.usatoday....ruptcy/2593001/

 

"Reality: The average annual pension for retired Detroit police officers and firefighters is about $34,000, roughly half that of such pensions in Los Angeles and Chicago, 25% less than in Kansas City, Mo., and 36% below benefits for those in Dallas. Retirees from Detroit's general city pension fund receive, on average, less than $20,000 a year."

 

What's the finances of Detroit reality? It's a measure of your lack of understanding of the problem that you would even post that quote.

 

Reality: As low as those pension numbers are, Detroit can't afford them. And that is a measure of the income stream from the property taxes and the income taxes of the taxable property and taxable incomes of what's left in Detroit. 

 

Reality: It's not Republicans or Democrats that have failed Detroit, it's not the residents or industry or business that left Detroit, it's the people that stayed and voted that created the problem.

 

Cute. The pay-as-you-go pensions and infrastructure bonds in Detroit were very much standard for any municipality that I've seen from that era. I haven't seen anything like the excess and rotten structure that you seem to claim. They're having problems with those pensions because their revenue stream is lagging. That's an economic problem far more than a political one.



#175 mikewof

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:07 PM

You need to emigrate. I wonder if we should start a kickstarter account to get you the fuck out of this terrible country filled with assholes.

 

I'm not advocating deporting brown people, so thanks, I'm happy enough in my area of the country were Spanish-speaking brown people were here before most of the English-speaking peach colored ones. I like to hear children speak Spanish as their first language, I shop as Mexican supermarkets and cook green chili, so I'm okay as long as we get a little more enlightened about the issue. You can leave if you want though.

 

But first, I'll simply see if you can answer a few questions:

  • the name of the city next door to Detroit to the west?
  • the population of that city with an Arabic speaking background?
  • the number of Visas currently available for all Arabic speaking countries?
  • the number of ex/internally displaced persons who speak Arabic and have the assets to help rebuild Detroit?

 

Terrific, rebuild Detroit like Dearborn. Except you seem to have forgotten something ... most of those Lebanese, Iraqis, Yemenis, etc., in Dearborn, are AMERICANS. As for massive new Muslim immigration to the USA, go ahead and sell that idea to the American public, lots of luck.

 

Interesting though ... even though there are millions of Central Americans and South Americans who could do a bang up job adding to our economy, you apparently feel more comfortable with importing people from across the oceans to do it. Muslim immigration is fine with me, but not at the expense of Latin American immigration.

 

If you're actually supporting that you should perhaps have your logic centers checked, they've broken down.



#176 Dog

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:52 PM

Where it start... If the 60% of Detroit’s population moved to an entirely different market you might have a point but they just moved to the suburbs beyond 8 mile road. Like the businesses that left, they simply voted with their feet and moved beyond the reach of Detroit's burdensome and corrupt government.

 
You're making things up again. You've written another lie. Wayne County had a decrease of about a quarter million people from the 2000 census to the 2010 census. The county (including Detroit and the suburbs you describe) had a population DECREASE of about 12% over the last decade.

And neighboring Macomb County (which actually absorbed Grosse Pointe Shores from Wayne County) had practically the same population over the last decade, http://quickfacts.ce...s/26/26099.html

So you write that people moved from Detroit into the neighboring suburbs, but the actual U.S. Census doesn't support that at all, unless your idea of a "suburb" of Detroit is a place like North Dakota or Georgia. Again, your theory is squashed by reality.
 

I

’m disappointed that a scientist would post a graph of declining crime numbers for a city with a declining population like it was indicative of a declining crime rate.

 
I couldn't find a rate graph for Detroit over the decade, but you can do that in your head from the graph I posted. And apparently you couldn't either, or you would have posted it. The actual crime numbers, given the population decrease over the decade, don't show the crazy crime spike you suggest. Detroit WAS a dangerous city and REMAINS a dangerous city. You suggested that these people moved away because the crime suddenly shot up. The crime is high is Detroit in part because the working-class economy partly collapsed.

And your theory further fails because there are cities that are by various measures more dangerous than Detroit, and they since they have managed to hold onto industry, their population hasn't shrunk like Detroit's has ...

crime-rates-in-us.jpg

Part of being a scientist means having a sense for bullshit theories. Your theory that Detroit collapsed due to liberal politics is just bullshit. It fails on every level.

It’s true that Detroit’s government was faced with challenges like many other cities faced. But unlike other cities that adapted and survived, Detroit’s government failed miserably.

Nice try Mike

 
Okay, please show me a city that "faced the challenges of Detroit" (i.e. loss of industry, jobs) over the same time frame (about 2000) but succeeded due to good government. You seem to claim that Detroit's government is the problem, but in many ways, they did a lot of things very right in the face of an economic catastrophe. It's true that Detroit lost a lot of low-education jobs, but Detroit has held on with higher end jobs in the service, finance and health industries.
 
If Detroit has such a broken government, how do you explain that Detroit is one of the top five cities in the country for job growth in the last couple years? If that liberal government is so broken and ineffective, how do you explain all those new jobs?
 
http://www.huffingto..._n_1503151.html
 
Again, your argument fails when reality is allowed to trump emotion.

Mike please, do you even know when most of the migration out of Detroit occurred? The decline of Detroit didn’t happen over night or even over the last decade. It occurred over the last 50 years. Start with 1967 after the race riots and the white flight to the suburbs and you will have an appropriate perspective. Citing 2000 and 2010 census data or crime data for the last decade is pointless and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the process.

As for the article on manufacturing jobs you cite it compares job generation in various metropolitan areas. Do you have data for the City of Detroit? If they are finally doing something to encourage business and are generating new jobs that’s great, a bit late, but a step in the right direction.

#177 mikewof

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:15 PM

Mike please, do you even know when most of the migration out of Detroit occurred? The decline of Detroit didn’t happen over night or even over the last decade. It occurred over the last 50 years. Start with 1967 after the race riots and the white flight to the suburbs and you will have an appropriate perspective. Citing 2000 and 2010 census data or crime data for the last decade is pointless and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the process.

 
Wrong again. Detroit's population started to decline in the 1950s, long before the race riots, mainly as a result of the same kind of suburbanization that took over the rest of the country (bigger yards, racism, etc.) and you would know that if you didn't keep making things up, because you would have compared the population of Detroit over time and compared it to the population of the county. I'm just writing basic information that is available in the U.S. Census here.
 
The reason I mention the last ten years is because YOU are the orangutan that is suggesting Detroit died because of the more recent liberal politicians.
 

Citing 2000 and 2010 census data or crime data for the last decade is pointless and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the process.

 
I keep bringing actual data into the argument, as a foil against your harebrained theories, and I keep demonstrating your lack of understanding of your own process. You are the ones writing the rules in this little debate and I keep demonstrating your errors.
 
Again, you claim that better governed cities prospered where Detroit didn't. So let's see an example of these cities that were hit with challenges as tough as Detroit but are doing terrific. Please be specific, you need to commit your theory to an actual test, no more of this hyperbole.
 
 

As for the article on manufacturing jobs you cite it compares job generation in various metropolitan areas. Do you have data for the City of Detroit?

 

Y'know, that you keep debating things that you can easily look up yourself doesn't suggest you take an adult's take to thinking. An adult looks up actual reality first to see if their theories are correct, something you apparently didn't do when you started this thread.

 

The first link wasn't direct enough? Just look up a hundred others, like this one, http://finance.yahoo...-24430599.html, where Detroit is ranked top five nationally for new job growth. How could this possibly happen with a bunch of people in Detroit's government that have politics with which you disagree?

 

 

If they are finally doing something to encourage business and are generating new jobs that’s great, a bit late, but a step in the right direction.

 

That's just adorable, isn't it? Now that reality is upon you, you decide to switch gears, agree with me that your original thesis is wrong, and instead congratulate the City of Detroit for doing something right?

 

Now, here's what you still don't seem to understand ... the reason Detroit attempted bankruptcy is partly BECAUSE they were bending over backwards to keep industry in their city. They have those pay-as-you-go pension plans and bonds because they added services and infrastructure in a fruitless attempt to keep their industry from taking the route of globalization and in a vote of confidence that the industry would fix their broken product lines without moving out. Detroit is an advanced city, they're adding tech jobs faster than almost all other cities, http://www.mlive.com...st-growing.html and they've invested in downtown IT networks and they were one of the first big cities to dip their toe into superconducting power distribution.



#178 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:21 AM

Hint: it's the economy stupid...

#179 squirel

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 01:32 AM

You need to emigrate. I wonder if we should start a kickstarter account to get you the fuck out of this terrible country filled with assholes.

 
I'm not advocating deporting brown people, so thanks, I'm happy enough in my area of the country were Spanish-speaking brown people were here before most of the English-speaking peach colored ones. I like to hear children speak Spanish as their first language, I shop as Mexican supermarkets and cook green chili, so I'm okay as long as we get a little more enlightened about the issue. You can leave if you want though.
 

But first, I'll simply see if you can answer a few questions:

  • the name of the city next door to Detroit to the west?
  • the population of that city with an Arabic speaking background?
  • the number of Visas currently available for all Arabic speaking countries?
  • the number of ex/internally displaced persons who speak Arabic and have the assets to help rebuild Detroit?
 
Terrific, rebuild Detroit like Dearborn. Except you seem to have forgotten something ... most of those Lebanese, Iraqis, Yemenis, etc., in Dearborn, are AMERICANS. As for massive new Muslim immigration to the USA, go ahead and sell that idea to the American public, lots of luck.
 
Interesting though ... even though there are millions of Central Americans and South Americans who could do a bang up job adding to our economy, you apparently feel more comfortable with importing people from across the oceans to do it. Muslim immigration is fine with me, but not at the expense of Latin American immigration.
 
If you're actually supporting that you should perhaps have your logic centers checked, they've broken down.

So, these Arabs have become AMERICANS! Wow, whodathunkit, eh? Imagine.

#180 mikewof

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 03:52 AM

So, these Arabs have become AMERICANS! Wow, whodathunkit, eh? Imagine.

 
The people around Dearborn started coming here more than fifty years ago, and of that population most of them are either naturalized or second/third generation.

You wanted to use them as an example of some magical immigrants who will come to rescue Detroit. I then pointed out that do that as per your proposal would require actual immigrants from actual countries, not people who have already been here for a while or longer.

#181 d'ranger

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:01 AM

Ya hafta be nutz to talk to squirels. 



#182 Dog

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 10:53 AM

Mike please, do you even know when most of the migration out of Detroit occurred? The decline of Detroit didn’t happen over night or even over the last decade. It occurred over the last 50 years. Start with 1967 after the race riots and the white flight to the suburbs and you will have an appropriate perspective. Citing 2000 and 2010 census data or crime data for the last decade is pointless and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the process.

 
Wrong again. Detroit's population started to decline in the 1950s, long before the race riots, mainly as a result of the same kind of suburbanization that took over the rest of the country (bigger yards, racism, etc.) and you would know that if you didn't keep making things up, because you would have compared the population of Detroit over time and compared it to the population of the county. I'm just writing basic information that is available in the U.S. Census here.
 
The reason I mention the last ten years is because YOU are the orangutan that is suggesting Detroit died because of the more recent liberal politicians.
 

C

iting 2000 and 2010 census data or crime data for the last decade is pointless and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the process.

 
I keep bringing actual data into the argument, as a foil against your harebrained theories, and I keep demonstrating your lack of understanding of your own process. You are the ones writing the rules in this little debate and I keep demonstrating your errors.
 
Again, you claim that better governed cities prospered where Detroit didn't. So let's see an example of these cities that were hit with challenges as tough as Detroit but are doing terrific. Please be specific, you need to commit your theory to an actual test, no more of this hyperbole.
 
 

As for the article on manufacturing jobs you cite it compares job generation in various metropolitan areas. Do you have data for the City of Detroit?

 
Y'know, that you keep debating things that you can easily look up yourself doesn't suggest you take an adult's take to thinking. An adult looks up actual reality first to see if their theories are correct, something you apparently didn't do when you started this thread.
 
The first link wasn't direct enough? Just look up a hundred others, like this one, http://finance.yahoo...-24430599.html, where Detroit is ranked top five nationally for new job growth. How could this possibly happen with a bunch of people in Detroit's government that have politics with which you disagree?
 
 

If they are finally doing something to encourage business and are generating new jobs that’s great, a bit late, but a step in the right direction.

 
That's just adorable, isn't it? Now that reality is upon you, you decide to switch gears, agree with me that your original thesis is wrong, and instead congratulate the City of Detroit for doing something right?
 
Now, here's what you still don't seem to understand ... the reason Detroit attempted bankruptcy is partly BECAUSE they were bending over backwards to keep industry in their city. They have those pay-as-you-go pension plans and bonds because they added services and infrastructure in a fruitless attempt to keep their industry from taking the route of globalization and in a vote of confidence that the industry would fix their broken product lines without moving out. Detroit is an advanced city, they're adding tech jobs faster than almost all other cities, http://www.mlive.com...st-growing.html and they've invested in downtown IT networks and they were one of the first big cities to dip their toe into superconducting power distribution.

I didn’t say the mismanagement was a recent development, if fact I said it went back to Coleman Young. It takes a long time to drive a city like Detroit into the ground. Pay attention, you're either being dishonest or responding to figments of your own imagination. If they are adopting pro business policies now I applaud that. Better late than never.
BTW...The city government did not decide on bankruptcy for the reasons you suggest, in fact it was not their decision at all, it was the state appointed emergancy manager who made the call.

#183 mikewof

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:29 PM

I didn’t say the mismanagement was a recent development, if fact I said it went back to Coleman Young. It takes a long time to drive a city like Detroit into the ground. Pay attention, you're either being dishonest or responding to figments of your own imagination.

 

You wrote a lot of things, many of which you just write, and fail to support, for instance how there are all these other cities that had the same problem set as Detroit but just chugged on through it anyway.

 

You wrote about the "takers and the makers" which now you seem to suggest that the "takers" have been in charge of Detroit since its population started dwindling back in the 1950s, when the "makers" moved away.

 

 

If they are adopting pro business policies now I applaud that. Better late than never.
BTW...The city government did not decide on bankruptcy for the reasons you suggest, in fact it was not their decision at all, it was the state appointed emergancy manager who made the call.

 

Except that you started this thread by writing that Detroit "is simply not competitive anymore." But now you acknowledge, in the face of the reality that they are exceedingly competitive, that you didn't really mean that, and you meant something else?

 

I didn't write that the city "decided on bankruptcy", I wrote that the BK was partly a result of the city catering to an industry that screwed it, they added infrastructure and services that required pensions and bonds.

 

So now that you recognize that economies are more like the tides of the ocean, lapping in and out, and now that you recognize that Detroit's economy is apparently already on the way back up, how does this square with you "takers and makers" views? Did the "makers" stage a sudden invisible coup of the city and take it back from the "takers"?



#184 craigiri

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:39 PM

"Makers and Takers" thing is a overcooked right wing talking point left over from the last election - it assumes that everyone except the speaker is a lazy ass. 

 

It's sad that doggie buys this stuff instead of thinking for himself. 



#185 Dog

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:44 PM

I didn’t say the mismanagement was a recent development, if fact I said it went back to Coleman Young. It takes a long time to drive a city like Detroit into the ground. Pay attention, you're either being dishonest or responding to figments of your own imagination.

 
You wrote a lot of things, many of which you just write, and fail to support, for instance how there are all these other cities that had the same problem set as Detroit but just chugged on through it anyway.
 
You wrote about the "takers and the makers" which now you seem to suggest that the "takers" have been in charge of Detroit since its population started dwindling back in the 1950s, when the "makers" moved away.
 
 

I

f they are adopting pro business policies now I applaud that. Better late than never.
BTW...The city government did not decide on bankruptcy for the reasons you suggest, in fact it was not their decision at all, it was the state appointed emergancy manager who made the call.

 
Except that you started this thread by writing that Detroit "is simply not competitive anymore." But now you acknowledge, in the face of the reality that they are exceedingly competitive, that you didn't really mean that, and you meant something else?
 
I didn't write that the city "decided on bankruptcy", I wrote that the BK was partly a result of the city catering to an industry that screwed it, they added infrastructure and services that required pensions and bonds.
 
So now that you recognize that economies are more like the tides of the ocean, lapping in and out, and now that you recognize that Detroit's economy is apparently already on the way back up, how does this square with you "takers and makers" views? Did the "makers" stage a sudden invisible coup of the city and take it back from the "takers"?

Look Mike, I always recognized that there are outside forces at work, that's in part what a city government is expected to deal with. Detroit has a long history of inept and corrupt government. Detroit just filed for bankruptcy, it may be a bit premature to celebrate its rebirth, we will have to wait on that. As for that invisible coup, it does sound a bit like the Governor's appointment of an emergency manager.

#186 squirel

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:47 PM

Ya hafta be nutz to talk to squirels. 

 

Yeah, thanks for the reminder, I'll stop aggravating the crazy ones.



#187 mikewof

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 03:33 PM



I didnt say the mismanagement was a recent development, if fact I said it went back to Coleman Young. It takes a long time to drive a city like Detroit into the ground. Pay attention, you're either being dishonest or responding to figments of your own imagination.

 
You wrote a lot of things, many of which you just write, and fail to support, for instance how there are all these other cities that had the same problem set as Detroit but just chugged on through it anyway.
 
You wrote about the "takers and the makers" which now you seem to suggest that the "takers" have been in charge of Detroit since its population started dwindling back in the 1950s, when the "makers" moved away.
 
 

I
f they are adopting pro business policies now I applaud that. Better late than never.
BTW...The city government did not decide on bankruptcy for the reasons you suggest, in fact it was not their decision at all, it was the state appointed emergancy manager who made the call.

 
Except that you started this thread by writing that Detroit "is simply not competitive anymore." But now you acknowledge, in the face of the reality that they are exceedingly competitive, that you didn't really mean that, and you meant something else?
 
I didn't write that the city "decided on bankruptcy", I wrote that the BK was partly a result of the city catering to an industry that screwed it, they added infrastructure and services that required pensions and bonds.
 
So now that you recognize that economies are more like the tides of the ocean, lapping in and out, and now that you recognize that Detroit's economy is apparently already on the way back up, how does this square with you "takers and makers" views? Did the "makers" stage a sudden invisible coup of the city and take it back from the "takers"?
Look Mike, I always recognized that there are outside forces at work, that's in part what a city government is expected to deal with. Detroit has a long history of inept and corrupt government. Detroit just filed for bankruptcy, it may be a bit premature to celebrate its rebirth, we will have to wait on that. As for that invisible coup, it does sound a bit like the Governor's appointment of an emergency manager.
I'm pretty sure that the emergency manager didn't secretly take over the city years ago when the recovery started. Their recovery is largely due to affordable labor costs, plenty of commercial real estate, an advanced infrastructure that was built out over the last decade and all the other things that work together to make economies resemble the comings and goings of the tides.

Many, many cities have inept and corrupt governments, but with heavy revenue streams, inept politicians can't easily kill a city. You claim that Detroit has an ineffective government, there is some of that. But on some levels of government and city planning, Detroit has been doing something obviously right as judging from their obvious job growth.

I don't know how that fits into the "taker - maker" argument, except to add weight to its ridiculousness.

#188 Dog

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:24 PM

I didnt say the mismanagement was a recent development, if fact I said it went back to Coleman Young. It takes a long time to drive a city like Detroit into the ground. Pay attention, you're either being dishonest or responding to figments of your own imagination.

 
You wrote a lot of things, many of which you just write, and fail to support, for instance how there are all these other cities that had the same problem set as Detroit but just chugged on through it anyway.
 
You wrote about the "takers and the makers" which now you seem to suggest that the "takers" have been in charge of Detroit since its population started dwindling back in the 1950s, when the "makers" moved away.
 
 

I
f they are adopting pro business policies now I applaud that. Better late than never.
BTW...The city government did not decide on bankruptcy for the reasons you suggest, in fact it was not their decision at all, it was the state appointed emergancy manager who made the call.<

/p>
 
Except that you started this thread by writing that Detroit "is simply not competitive anymore." But now you acknowledge, in the face of the reality that they are exceedingly competitive, that you didn't really mean that, and you meant something else?
 
I didn't write that the city "decided on bankruptcy", I wrote that the BK was partly a result of the city catering to an industry that screwed it, they added infrastructure and services that required pensions and bonds.
 
So now that you recognize that economies are more like the tides of the ocean, lapping in and out, and now that you recognize that Detroit's economy is apparently already on the way back up, how does this square with you "takers and makers" views? Did the "makers" stage a sudden invisible coup of the city and take it back from the "takers"?

Look Mike, I always recognized that there are outside forces at work, that's in part what a city government is expected to deal with. Detroit has a long history of inept and corrupt government. Detroit just filed for bankruptcy, it may be a bit premature to celebrate its rebirth, we will have to wait on that. As for that invisible coup, it does sound a bit like the Governor's appointment of an emergency manager.
I'm pretty sure that the emergency manager didn't secretly take over the city years ago when the recovery started. Their recovery is largely due to affordable labor costs, plenty of commercial real estate, an advanced infrastructure that was built out over the last decade and all the other things that work together to make economies resemble the comings and goings of the tides.

Many, many cities have inept and corrupt governments, but with heavy revenue streams, inept politicians can't easily kill a city. You claim that Detroit has an ineffective government, there is some of that. But on some levels of government and city planning, Detroit has been doing something obviously right as judging from their obvious job growth.

I don't know how that fits into the "taker - maker" argument, except to add weight to its ridiculousness.

It’s entirely possible that Detroit has done some things right but they are operating under a state appointed emergency manager and just filed for bankruptcy so let’s not get carried away.

#189 mikewof

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

Its entirely possible that Detroit has done some things right but they are operating under a state appointed emergency manager and just filed for bankruptcy so lets not get carried away.

How could they possibly have done anything right? You did write that all the makers left and only takers remain, did you not?

Are you suggesting now that takers can fix things and resemble makers, or are you just giving up on the whole taker-maker thing and willing to embrace a more realistic, nuanced view?

#190 Dog

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:22 PM

Its entirely possible that Detroit has done some things right but they are operating under a state appointed emergency manager and just filed for bankruptcy so lets not get carried away.

How could they possibly have done anything right? You did write that all the makers left and only takers remain, did you not?

Are you suggesting now that takers can fix things and resemble makers, or are you just giving up on the whole taker-maker thing and willing to embrace a more realistic, nuanced view?
Maybe reality set in. Maybe they discovered that $100,000,000 deficits really are unsustainable.

#191 squirel

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:11 PM

dawg an woof turn a very serious problem affecting many people into the dawg an woof comedy show. How can dawg an woof both be very wrong yet argue their erroneous beliefs (they're sure as hell not arguing facts) so passionately?

 

In fact based news, it's very interesting to see the Republican Attorney General of Michigan take the side of the pensioners and argue for upholding the Michigan Constitution that says something about public service pensions shall not be reduced. This is a provision put in the Constitution at the insistence of the teacher's unions (MEA & AFT).



#192 jetboy

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

Out of curiosity, how exactly does the AG intend to pay for those pensions?  A constitutional provision that a subdivision of the state pay money that it cannot obtain creates an interesting situation. 

 

And FWIW, bankruptcy code > state constitution  (article VI, clause 2 of the USA Constitution).



#193 Chuck D.

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:55 PM

It’s entirely possible that Detroit has done some things right but they are operating under a state appointed emergency manager and just filed for bankruptcy so let’s not get carried away.

 

That's a good one.  Ricky Snyder's looter for the big-monied creditors is as big a honey-sucking dirt bag as anyone else whose had a run a trying to run that city (save Dennis Archer who had the sense to call it quits after one term) ...

 

Kevyn Orr:  Living Large



#194 mikewof

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:42 PM

Out of curiosity, how exactly does the AG intend to pay for those pensions?  A constitutional provision that a subdivision of the state pay money that it cannot obtain creates an interesting situation. 

 

And FWIW, bankruptcy code > state constitution  (article VI, clause 2 of the USA Constitution).

 

Here's a pretty good story about how it went down with Cleveland, remember their BK?

 

http://www.usnews.co...ion-budget-woes

 

Detroit will pay the pensions, they'll get some reorg on their bonds, they'll work it out. These are death knells of the pay-as-you-go pensions, they still exist, but they're going to exist a lot less in the future.



#195 plchacker

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:04 PM

My father, grandfather were both members of the UAW.  I had a front row view or the union life.  I was a shop steward and vice president or our own local (PACE-United Steel Workers) in a paper mill.  I also owned my own company before teaching.  As a teacher I choose not to be part of the NEA or the AEA.  You can blow smoke up others' asses  but not mine sir.  I have seen both sides of the coin. 

 

A lot of words - some true, others....well, you dismiss health care with one short sentence! Yet, at almost 20% of our GDP and one of the rocks that has hung over our entire manufacturing sector (and Detroit!), it's nothing to be thrown out the window!

 

Let's start with #1. Unions. I have never been a member of a union. In fact, my family owned a clothing factory and my dad hated the union, since he was management! Case dismissed. I have always been in business for myself and made a living from the ground up (construction, sales, importing, manufacturing, etc.) - so a union is and was never a part of my life. 

 

I can tell you this. The union garment workers were making almost nothing but without the union my dad would have paid them even less and shown them the door much quicker....and treated them worse. For instance, the union made him put A/C in the factory - you can only imagine steam pressing dresses all day in 95 degree summer weather!

 

But that is neither here nor there.

 

I'm sure you have experience in your life, but that shouldn't precluded you from basic math. You talked around the issue of automation and quality which I laid out - and although I said my calcs were top-of-the-head, there is no doubt that cars which last twice as long and take fewer workers to assemble are going to mean lost jobs. I'm not claiming that is a bad thing - in fact, it is not! But it is never the less true. It takes fewer workers to build and fix robots than to do the welds that they accomplish. You know that. So don't smoke our asses either....

 

I could care less about unions as some kind of talking point. The fact remains that Germany, with 1/4 our population, produces more cars and pays the workers twice as much - and the workers have a better life as a result. You could write a book and that fact does not change. 

 

Even Windsor, ONT. is not going broke - yet they have unions and car plants. Why not? 

 

BTW, I did import products from Denmark and traveled over there quite a bit to the factories. Yes, they had 34 hour work weeks, 5+ weeks vacation, cradle to grave health care and high wages...and, of course, unions. But the unions were just one part of the mix. The Directors actually got along with the unions. 

 

In the end it's about what kind of a society we desire. The existing one which you seem to champion (our current state) has the largest income inequality since the Guilded Age.  My vision is one where long term planning is put into place so that we can educate our workforce for the present and future jobs - and have industrial and trade policies which assure that many of those jobs will be here.

 

We have to start somewhere and lamenting about the "unions ruining this" or the "democrats destroying that" just ain't gonna cut it. 

Take a good look at the price of the German cars.  There is a reason for the high price.  The only way to justify the high cost is to push quality.  You forgot to mention that land is sold in some cases by the square meter.  It is far more expensive.  The cost of living in general is much much higher.  High wages = high prices.  High cost of living demands high wages.  Like I said, I know several former Austrians who are now American citizens.  I don't know of a single American that applied for Austrian citizenship. 

 

The unions do nothing more than provide fuel for contested bickering.  As a business owner I am sure you want to keep good employees healthy and reasonably happy.  Union or not.  You know, its the same thing is Red vs Blue.  Mostly bull, and polarizing.  Have they done good, sure, but they have done more harm than good. 

 

Detroit went down because of bad management, not because they lost the big 3. 

 

The big 3 were victims of poor management - quality - and union abuse.  I'm sure those underpaid union workers were concerned about quality of product.  'Just don't buy a car built on Monday AM or Friday PM.  After all its the company that profits from the sales, not the workers.'  <= that attitude is exactly the downfall of unions.  Robots don't have that attitude.  As for quality and numbers,  You forget the price of hiring all those welders, short and long term.  Their health is much better long term doing something other than welding, true?  



#196 jetboy

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 02:45 PM

I'm not sure why we're still comparing cars. Automobiles are not a bell whether for a strong economy. If they were we'd be in great shape as our citizens can afford twice as many cars per capita as Germans. Germany does not produce more vehicles than the United States.  German auto makers were bailed out by their government and would have been insolvent similar to the US auto makers.  German cars are more expensive and not as well engineered or manufactured as Japanese or Korean brands manufactured in the United States. So why again are we talking about German auto makers?



#197 Tom Ray

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:10 PM

Let's get back to fixing Detroit. I know! Let's get some anarchists to do it.

 

We could call them the Detroit Hot Rods.






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