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Watertribe monster garage Flying Scot

square head main racks

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#1 zerothehero

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:18 PM

here is a pic of the next monster garage watertribe project.  A Flying Scot with racks.  Rumored to be the project of Jeff Linton.  Also rumored to be sporting a bigger sail plan with square top main.  Will be cool to see it develop.  Class 4 has never been won by a sloop.  Will this be the year?

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#2 Steam Flyer

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 03:14 PM

Could be interesting... will need a better centerboard & rudder to take advantage of more power, also not gonna be much fun to row any distance... IMHO an event like the EC rewards a slimmer hull form to sail thru the chop, but we'll see huh?

 

IMHO the FS would be a much much better boat if they got rid of the twinky-ass halyard arrangement ("cutting edge 1955 technology") and made them self-bailing. But the class is not going to let that happen, so it's basically a kludgy 420-for-grampas.

 

FB- Doug



#3 MisterMoon

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 03:15 PM

Those racks are going to be in the way when he's looking for volunteers to help him get it off the trailer at Ft. Desoto!

We're not tying to win next year, just finish.

#4 Cavandish

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 03:47 PM

Could be interesting... will need a better centerboard & rudder to take advantage of more power, also not gonna be much fun to row any distance... IMHO an event like the EC rewards a slimmer hull form to sail thru the chop, but we'll see huh?

 

IMHO the FS would be a much much better boat if they got rid of the twinky-ass halyard arrangement ("cutting edge 1955 technology") and made them self-bailing. But the class is not going to let that happen, so it's basically a kludgy 420-for-grampas.

 

FB- Doug

More like an overweight Thistle for those who aren't into pain.

 

Launching this thing on a beach isn't going to be fun, empty maybe, but full of supplies they will be looking at 1000 pounds of boat, that doesn't self-bail and has odd little peculiarities in the rigging that would be a bitch to fix.

 

Edit: should have looked closer at the photo, that wound be a bailing hole cut into the hull i assume and one can hope different standing/running rigging will be added along with the new sail?



#5 zerothehero

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 03:59 PM

A few thoughts.  I doubt launching will be that bad.  Using inflatable rollers my wife and I launched the Nomad easily.  A Scot must weigh less than a Sea Pearl tri and one of those got in the water last year.  But yeah, getting it to the beach isn't going to be fun at all.  No trailers on the beach, no dollies either.  New blades would be much faster than stock we'll see what they do.  This thing will likely never be stock again so class rules aren't likely to be an issue.  If it choppy and upwind it's going to be slow no matter what, that bow can't get out of it's own way.  Off the wind will be a different story.  Scot's are surprisingly quick once they get their nose out of the water.  Rowing any distance will be bad.  Heard there will be a new mast so halyard issues should be resolved.  Also planned is a sprit and A-sail.  It will be comfy though.  Scot's are great race boats but they are fun to daysail, and they are very roomy.  No need to worry about storage on that beast!



#6 Cavandish

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 05:05 PM

I had to look up the sea pearl tri, yeah damn...certainly not light, however...they demount and the sea pearl -parts- are all less individually than a Flying Scott HULL alone which weighs in at a hefty ~700 lbs. That said if the will is there, sure sounds like it is, there is a way.

 

With a liberal application of additional sail area she should be plenty fast and stable, to my understanding and eye (both limited, i've raced against these boats but never sailed on one) the Scott is mostly just a detuned Thistle with intentionally added weight and reduced sail area. Once in the water i certainly wouldn't count it out, rowing would suck, but with that Thistle DNA, it may not take more than the lightest air to make progress once it gets moving.

 

Tons of room for sure, but that is possible, thanks to a lack of enclosed tanks which i find kinda scary.

 

Would be fun to see how the project develops and i wish him well.



#7 lindy 911

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 05:27 PM

Please forward the owner of this boat my interest in his stock rig. I have a 1990 FS I bought and restored but it came without a rig or rudder. If he's going to put something else up. I'll buy the original srt-up.

 

Thanks!



#8 Steam Flyer

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 05:52 PM

I had to look up the sea pearl tri, yeah damn...certainly not light, however...they demount and the sea pearl -parts- are all less individually than a Flying Scott HULL alone which weighs in at a hefty ~700 lbs. That said if the will is there, sure sounds like it is, there is a way.

 

With a liberal application of additional sail area she should be plenty fast and stable, to my understanding and eye (both limited, i've raced against these boats but never sailed on one) the Scott is mostly just a detuned Thistle with intentionally added weight and reduced sail area. Once in the water i certainly wouldn't count it out, rowing would suck, but with that Thistle DNA, it may not take more than the lightest air to make progress once it gets moving.

 

Tons of room for sure, but that is possible, thanks to a lack of enclosed tanks which i find kinda scary.

 

Would be fun to see how the project develops and i wish him well.

 

Weight is not good, but remember a Lightning is also 700+ lbs and a team has done very well handling that boat. One team has brought an E-scow! The Lightning is better at rowing and cutting thru a chop and has built-in flotation... now that you mention it, I don't think Watertribe rules require flotation but considering that boats have been sunk and lost, it would be a smart upgrade to add some big float bags (btw you can get kayak/canoe flotation pillows for a LOT less than the fancy-dancy racing sailboat ones).

 

Tons of room = good. Shucks you could put a fairly good bunk up under the foredeck of a Flying Scot. I have gone camp-cruising in a Highlander (FS older, slightly bigger, and definitely faster/better-looking sister) and that would be a good choice.

 

FB- Doug



#9 zerothehero

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:11 PM

the sea pearl launched as a complete (whole) boat and while it isn't a rule that you launch loaded most do.  We were 625 pounds with probably another 200 in gear and water.  We used 2 inflatable rollers and when we hit the water we were flying.  The rollers are the way to go.  There isn't a rule per say about flotation but I can say we were asked about it at inspection.  We were asked where it was, what it was, if we had modified it in any way and could we self rescue.  In this past years race it was initially reported that the Prindle had sunk entirely which turned out not to be true.  One hull had been holed or split and that hull did sink, but the other was afloat.  That seems to indicate a lack of adequate flotation but I have no info.  The Hobie TI that was lost was recovered and thrown away after spending a night being slammed into a sea wall.  Other years rescues I have very limited info on.  The Scot could easily have flotation added before the start.  I noticed they have removed the seats.  I have sailed Scots quite a bit and have seen them over and even saw one sink.  With proper setup I think they will be fine.  I bet they could sleep 6 adults in the bottom of a Scot.  Teaching junior sailing we had 2 we took little kids out in.  One time I had 10, 8 year olds up under that foredeck.



#10 Dex Sawash

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:38 PM

Probably easier to ramp launch it and sail it to the beach and then haul it above the high water mark....if that doesn't somehow break the rules.
Should be enough form stability to get rid of the FS heavy centerboard, that is 200# or more isn't it? That might get it down to a reasonable weight and help get the stupid beach ball bow out of the water. Turbo Pig shows good speed with an asso spin.

https://www.google.c....49478099,d.aWM

#11 zerothehero

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:46 PM

you can do it that way, sail around I mean.  Logistically you want to be on the beach earlier and if you need 6-8+ people to help you best get there in the early afternoon.  In 2012 I waited to see Randy Smyth's boat but he got there just as darkness set in.  By then the beach was a ghost town except for the security crew.  Good thing Scissors is so light! 



#12 Cavandish

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:32 PM

 

The internet ftw.

 

Add a few hundred pounds of provisions, expect to be exhausted and i would be plenty concerned without some modifications.

 

The Flying Scot at my former club had foam under the seats, but not much. It also had this silly little winch for the halyards...this project has the potential to end up really very cool with a modern rig and if they can work out how to make the boat self recoverable!

 

There are many who love the FS hull form, while not the most pleasing to the eye, works nicely and the stability is pretty evident in this video.

 

A Lightning can be pretty easily righted and sailed away. No where near as comfy though and easier to get in the wrong side down position to begin with.

 

However it should perhaps be noted that the "classic" wooden Lightnings would swamp without added floatation and the wooden masts required the main be pulled up into the boat prior to righting. I had the displeasure of seeing the mast snap on one of the classics :( during a recovery.



#13 Steam Flyer

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:57 PM

.... ...

 

The Flying Scot at my former club had foam under the seats, but not much. It also had this silly little winch for the halyards...this project has the potential to end up really very cool with a modern rig and if they can work out how to make the boat self recoverable!

 

There are many who love the FS hull form, while not the most pleasing to the eye, works nicely and the stability is pretty evident in this video.

 

A Lightning can be pretty easily righted and sailed away. No where near as comfy though and easier to get in the wrong side down position to begin with.

... ... ...

 

Seeing might be believing, but more probably not. Especially in the case of somebody who was that much enamored of the Flying Scot's hull form.

 

Turbo-Pig looks almost as fast as a conventional Lightning. Loading up the rig enough to bend that telephone pole mast is a bad idea IMHO and an indication that the hull form (while plenty stable) is really not that good for applying more power. Yes a brick can be made to fly, but wouldn't it be better to start out with something a little better suited to the task?

 

However I have long been aware that you're better off criticising people's kids than their boats, no matter how realistic your assessment is. Good luck all!

 

FB- Doug



#14 zerothehero

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:01 AM

Keep in mind that aside from the Core Sound boats and the Sea Pearls there is basically nothing out there designed for this sort of race in class 4.  A lot of the fun is getting an idea and making it work.  I had thought of a FS when we were getting ready but I already had the Nomad.   The basic Scot hull form is just the platform to build on.  The EC isn't just about speed, heck we were reefed about 50% of this past one, even when we would have been able to be 100% and faster.  It's about problem solving.  One of the coolest things about this race is that it pushes people to make things work, adapt, plan ahead, and take responsibility.  I found it so refreshing to be with a group of people who find that sort of challenge fun.  I think this project is going to be very cool to watch grow, and more fun to follow in the race.  If they are thinking about keeping the inside route as a possibility I hope they go with a deck stepped mast.  Bridges break and they may need to get the rig down, fast.  The second bridge we went through couldn't close for about 1/2 hour after we went through, so it is possible they might get stuck.  Now that the seats are out I bet that has dropped the hull weight by 40-60 pounds.  Foam panels are cheap and light ad easy to cut and fit.  The FS will be comfy, roomy, and hopefully dry and stable.  I think they are off to a very cool start.  I wish them the best!



#15 MisterMoon

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:48 PM

Registration for the 2014 EC is now open. Might be an interesting year based on projects like this that we've heard about.  I think I heard someone is going to bring Meade's i550 Hot Canary back to the beach for 2014. We have no chance of winning unless it turns out to be a carnage-fest and we somehow get lucky by being big chickens and not taking big risks. That's NOT what I'm hoping for, however. 



#16 zerothehero

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:00 PM

I'm pullin for ya MM.  You guys are going to kick butt!  Winning?  Getting to the finish line still speaking to my crew was winning.  You guys are going to have a blast!



#17 Speng

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:43 PM

Probably easier to ramp launch it and sail it to the beach and then haul it above the high water mark....if that doesn't somehow break the rules.
Should be enough form stability to get rid of the FS heavy centerboard, that is 200# or more isn't it? That might get it down to a reasonable weight and help get the stupid beach ball bow out of the water. Turbo Pig shows good speed with an asso spin.

https://www.google.c....49478099,d.aWM

How do you hold up that mast head kite? And how is it rigged?



#18 Steam Flyer

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:36 AM

There are a number of "expedition" type boats but they are kind of outside the mainstream. There are a lot of smallish camper/beach cruisers that would be great for this, such as the West Wight Potter 15. Many tend to take the approach from a traditional direction, which is fine but tends to result in a boat with some handicaps (heavy, not good close-hauled, not self-bailing, etc).

 

Why not take the Monster Garage approach with something with bit more legs and better hull form, like a Tempest? They go thru a chop like a hot knife thru butter, and they're self-bailing besides. I was looking at an old Paceship Mouette on Craigslist a while back and thought that would make a cool EC boat too.

 

The challenges are directly related to seamanship IMHO... how do you get your vessel from point A to point B under less-than-favorable circumstances, and how do you live within your vessel's means during that time? Most small-boats sailors nowadays don't really know much about reefing, or navigating, and those who are into rowing are not into sailing etc etc. It's a very multi-disciplinary challenge!

 

FB- Doug



#19 Cavandish

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:42 AM

All new rig is what the guy has planned, looks like the "turbo pig" (an entirely different boat) is running the OEM mast and rigging which from the video looks pretty scetchy for the conditions.
I'm assuming this boat will have crew aboard? Anything under about 10 knots, they could likely work in a pretty solid sleep schedule. Not saying that would be they safest option, but FS's are easy to singlehand. That alone, if allowed and conditions allow, would be a pretty major advantage. Losing even 10 minutes an hour can be made up by
sailing through the night.

#20 zerothehero

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:06 AM

There are a number of "expedition" type boats but they are kind of outside the mainstream. There are a lot of smallish camper/beach cruisers that would be great for this, such as the West Wight Potter 15. Many tend to take the approach from a traditional direction, which is fine but tends to result in a boat with some handicaps (heavy, not good close-hauled, not self-bailing, etc).

 

Why not take the Monster Garage approach with something with bit more legs and better hull form, like a Tempest? They go thru a chop like a hot knife thru butter, and they're self-bailing besides. I was looking at an old Paceship Mouette on Craigslist a while back and thought that would make a cool EC boat too.

 

The challenges are directly related to seamanship IMHO... how do you get your vessel from point A to point B under less-than-favorable circumstances, and how do you live within your vessel's means during that time? Most small-boats sailors nowadays don't really know much about reefing, or navigating, and those who are into rowing are not into sailing etc etc. It's a very multi-disciplinary challenge!

 

FB- Doug

first, I have no idea why they chose a Scot but I think the skipper has extensive experience in them.  Maybe it's just one he had in the back yard, or maybe it's some old idea that never died, wings on a Scot.  Doesn't a Tempest have a keel?  That would rule it out from the start.  Never mind getting it off the beach, you would never get into any of the CPs!  Seamanship is what they are about in the tribe, spot on.  The Scot has tons of room, so much so I kinda think it might not be entirely in the spirit of the race, but it not the biggest or roomiest to give it a shot.  Even stock it would be a great boat for many of the aspects of the race, it's biggest problem that I can see being rowing.  Any boat that is chosen is going to have issues.  The Scot has a lot in it's favor.  As per the camp cruisers, if you just want to finish they are great choices.  But not to many people use them.  Many in the Tribe like to build something that is personal, some don't but many do.  A West Wight Potter could do the EC but it would be slow.  Compare that to the SCAMP project and they are very similar, but SCAMP was something built by it's crew.  I think that gets at what I am saying, each boat is a reflection of that crews personality.  The EC is incredibly complex and since it is still a new concept, there is a lot of innovation and not much type forming yet.  Everybody looks at it differently and brings unique stuff to the table.  This project might fail but I hope they finish.  And I hope they enjoy every minute, from idea, to build, to testing, to racing.  I thought it was awesome and want to go again!



#21 BalticBandit

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 06:10 AM

Seems to me the ideal hull shape is something like the 49er or the Musto  - dished shape which is actually quite comfy to lie on.  You need to do three things:  Kickup blades (which I would do along the lines of how windsurfers do it)  The abilityy to drop the mast - that one's easy since the "boat bender" approach with enough of a tail solves that, and propulsion without sails - which could be a Hobie magic flipper drive - or what about  a "mud prop" (aka "longtail" motors) but instead of powered by an outboard, powered by a folding bicycle like the kind you see in metros:

 

Double-handed, when the breeze is up and there is clearance to sail  two on a trapeze is going to be fast  (though maybe not as fast as a multi--hull).  at night, one pulls on a dry suit and sleeps in the dish while the other sails and vice versa taking shifts every 2 hours.  when you drop the mast, you put the "longtail" prop over the stern (clipped to the rudder gantry, and one pedals while the other steers and you switch off.

 

There are a number of "expedition" type boats but they are kind of outside the mainstream. There are a lot of smallish camper/beach cruisers that would be great for this, such as the West Wight Potter 15. Many tend to take the approach from a traditional direction, which is fine but tends to result in a boat with some handicaps (heavy, not good close-hauled, not self-bailing, etc).

 

Why not take the Monster Garage approach with something with bit more legs and better hull form, like a Tempest? They go thru a chop like a hot knife thru butter, and they're self-bailing besides. I was looking at an old Paceship Mouette on Craigslist a while back and thought that would make a cool EC boat too.

 

The challenges are directly related to seamanship IMHO... how do you get your vessel from point A to point B under less-than-favorable circumstances, and how do you live within your vessel's means during that time? Most small-boats sailors nowadays don't really know much about reefing, or navigating, and those who are into rowing are not into sailing etc etc. It's a very multi-disciplinary challenge!

 

FB- Doug

first, I have no idea why they chose a Scot but I think the skipper has extensive experience in them.  Maybe it's just one he had in the back yard, or maybe it's some old idea that never died, wings on a Scot.  Doesn't a Tempest have a keel?  That would rule it out from the start.  Never mind getting it off the beach, you would never get into any of the CPs!  Seamanship is what they are about in the tribe, spot on.  The Scot has tons of room, so much so I kinda think it might not be entirely in the spirit of the race, but it not the biggest or roomiest to give it a shot.  Even stock it would be a great boat for many of the aspects of the race, it's biggest problem that I can see being rowing.  Any boat that is chosen is going to have issues.  The Scot has a lot in it's favor.  As per the camp cruisers, if you just want to finish they are great choices.  But not to many people use them.  Many in the Tribe like to build something that is personal, some don't but many do.  A West Wight Potter could do the EC but it would be slow.  Compare that to the SCAMP project and they are very similar, but SCAMP was something built by it's crew.  I think that gets at what I am saying, each boat is a reflection of that crews personality.  The EC is incredibly complex and since it is still a new concept, there is a lot of innovation and not much type forming yet.  Everybody looks at it differently and brings unique stuff to the table.  This project might fail but I hope they finish.  And I hope they enjoy every minute, from idea, to build, to testing, to racing.  I thought it was awesome and want to go again!



#22 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:23 AM

Thanks guys, keep us posted!

 

http://sailinganarch.../the-other-ufc/



#23 sailwriter

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:20 PM

I am putting together a "Frankenboat" Raider with a view to entering the Everglades Challenge upcoming.

Very comfortable boat, room for boom-tent sleeping. Difficult to capsize, easy to right. Kickup rudder.

This old first-generation Raider even has a well for the cooler!

However, it is a very expensive event, from equipment to entry fee.

We'll see.

Dave Ellis



#24 MisterMoon

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:08 PM

With last year's change at the first checkpoint from Grande Tours in Placida to Cape Haze Marina, the mast drop is less of an issue than it was. Nowadays t's possible to do the whole route without plucking out the rig. However, as ZTH has pointed out, if you are taking the ICW on the first leg of the course, you need to be able to get the rig down in case a bridge can't or won't open when you get there or as we saw in 2012 where the wind and currents were too strong to sail or row into. 

 

When I first starting thinking seriously about doing this event myself, the FS was one of the boats on my list. It's a big beastie to get off the the beach and probably a pig to row, but they are comfortable and pretty seaworthy. With a little planning, getting off the beach isn't so bad especially if you have two people. I'm a sailor and not a rower, so rowing ability isn't paramount in my mind. It's something to be done only for short distances. This might be a liability if we have a one week window with no wind, something that is very unlikely in early March in that part of the world. 

 

The production boat I really like for the EC is the venerable O'Day Daysailer I. (Not the DSII I attempted with in 2011) They sail well, can handle heavy seas, and can be purchased very inexpensively.

 

In my mind the point of the event isn't so much finishing first. Instead it's simply finishing in what you brought, and sharing that experience with the other competitors.  If you want to go fast, take a catamaran. But getting to Key Largo in 26 hours like Jamie Livingston did a few years ago means you are home and back to your real life a lot sooner than you might want to be. That's not why I do this. For me it's about the escape from regular 21st century reality to a more visceral primitive one. 



#25 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:09 PM

that boat is a cock-up from the get go.
a quick look at most pics will show racks are angled up in nearly every other class example.
this is what a plumber might come up with.

#26 MisterMoon

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:38 PM

that boat is a cock-up from the get go.
a quick look at most pics will show racks are angled up in nearly every other class example.
this is what a plumber might come up with.

 

So you say. I expect to watch them sail off over the horizon, never to be seen again by me.

 

That being said, the racks may not even be strictly necessary unless it's really honking. There are also conditions where they may be a liability. I had a period in 2011 where I was beating in short steep 5-7' seas where I would not have wanted those racks in their current or any other configuration. 

 

Extreme boats don't have a good record for finishing this event, e.g. Randy Smyth's Sizzors. Inadequately prepared boats don't either e.g. me in 2011. 



#27 munt

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:45 PM

why is the dihedral of your racks in reverse?

#28 sailwriter

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:16 PM

Low freeboard boats need the racks angled upward.

We are talking Flying Scott here. Already plenty of freeboard.

Uh, do the naysayers know who is putting this boat together?????

(Not me.)

Dave Ellis



#29 zerothehero

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:27 PM

Funny story about passing judgement on others craft in the tribe.  At the 2013 start there was a funny little tri made of foam.  It wasn't finished yet and it looked a little more than rough, no paint, rig scalped off something else.  I actually new the story behind it but was so caught up in my own situation I forgot all about it.  In my mind I wrote it off as a failed attempt and didn't give it much more thought.  After the start I kept tabs on it till it went outside and we went inside.  As we sailed into the finish 4 days later there it was, tied up and looking quite pleased with itself.  There were lots of people down on the docks welcoming us and a few other competitors into the finish.  Space was limited so we tried to tie up and threw our lines to people on the dock.  As we were doing so I pointed to the tri and said, "that beat us?" with a little attitude I am afraid.  About 2 hours later I was walking down the dock and saw a hastily drawn name on the transom of the tri that I had missed before, "Finger Mullet" it read.  Oh crap!  I had stepped in it, bad.  This was the new boat for DancesWithMullet, a multi EC finisher who had previously sailed the EC in his Blue Jay, named "Mullet"  At the awards I confessed  to him that I hadn't realized who he was and had written of the boat as a hack.  He laughed and told me his wife was holding my stern line at the finish when I made my snotty comment.  Whoops!  He laughed and said it was ok, lots of experience with people making comments.   

 

MM is correct, radical boats are often not great for this event.  Simple, manageable, seaworthy boats are often the boats in Key Largo at the finish.  They don't often win but their crews are often in the best spirits and best shape at the finish.  If you want to go fast a cat or tri is the way to go.  But the risk is higher. 



#30 BalticBandit

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:41 PM

Seems to me you want a cat rigged sail so that the mast can be well forward in the boat (to facilitate lowering it.  and you want a windsurfer wishbone style boom (so that it can stay on the mast since the connection is on the fwd and not aft side of the boom.  Perhaps you mount the mast on a UV joint above the deck instead so that your boom can be like the Musto boom and attatch near the base of the mast.  in that case if you make the boom "roller furling you can roll the full battened main onto the boom as you lower it, lower the mast with a "boat bender" and the quickly rig the bike with the long outboard prop shaft. you would need a boom cradle at the stern for the mast and the boom to sit in to clear the rudder.  I figure you could drop and raise the rig in about 5 minutes. 

 

And you could set it up so that the bicycle prop thing could be run with the sails still up.  And connect the front fork of the bicycle to the rudder via brummel hooks and you can even steer while pedaling.



#31 They Had Yodas and Shit

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:42 PM

That must be Jeff Linton's boat. I've also seen other pics of the Scot before the outriggers showing a carbon sprit.  

 

You can see a blog post about the project from his wife Amy: http://www.amysmithl...rankenscot.html

 

If you didn't know, Jeff Linton is...

 

2007  Lightning World Champion
2007 Flying Scot North American Champion
2007 Classic Moth National Champion
and oh yeah, 2007 Rolex Yachtsman of the year.... and that was just 2007
 
He's a 5 time sunfish North American Champion and he just won 2013 Flying Scot North Americans... again. 
 
OH Rodgers (Kiwi 35 fame) is helping him with the design... so he's got that going for him.

 

Amy has also started a new blog dedicated to the whole project itself but I can find that or the pic with the carbon sprit. I'll share if I can track them down.



#32 They Had Yodas and Shit

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:57 PM

Found more pics on the Masthead Enterprises Facebook Page:

 

https://www.facebook...s/photos_stream



#33 zerothehero

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 04:08 PM

Great links, thanks.  So looking at the blog I was almost spot on, they have removed 60 pounds from the hull by cutting out the seats and the aft deck.  I didn't notice the deck but in some of the other pics it is more clearly shown.



#34 sailwriter

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 06:43 PM

Hence my guffaws when I read the usual 'experts' dissing this effort.

Oh, and I voted for Jeff in the 2007 Rolex sailor of the year media polling.

Wouldn't sell his effort short.

If they can get it off the beach.

Dave Ellis



#35 Boudreaux

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 08:15 PM

Add this one to my bucket list.

 

Love the FrankenScot.   BUT

 

There is a 40 mile portage!  I've got a notion for a real badass Rickshaw Dolly for this portion of the trip.  What have you guys got in mind?



#36 zerothehero

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 08:51 PM

Next March there are three races starting at once, the Ultra Marathon (62 miles to CP1), the EC (300 miles to Key largo), and the Ultimate Florida Challenge (1200 miles around FL).  The Scot is working up for the EC not the UFC.  UFC boats are Kruger canoes, sea kayaks, and small cats/tris.  Last year there was a rule change allowing the sailors to change boats for the river portions and portage.  That is how SOS and his mom were able to sail a 20+ foot tri for the ocean/gulf legs, while they used a Kuger canoe for the rivers.  The rule change was due to extreme low water.  It was not universally popular.  In addition you can not enter the UFC till you have completed an EC in that UFC cycle (4 year cycle usually).  So the Scot skipper and crew would need one EC under their belt before attempting the UFC.



#37 fairlane

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:03 PM

Add this one to my bucket list.

 

Love the FrankenScot.   BUT

 

There is a 40 mile portage!  I've got a notion for a real badass Rickshaw Dolly for this portion of the trip.  What have you guys got in mind?

There is no portage on the Everglades Challenge. There is a 40 mile portage on the Ultimate Florida Challenge. The Everglades Challenge is the first leg of the Ultimate Florida Challenge.



#38 samc99us

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:09 PM

That must be Jeff Linton's boat. I've also seen other pics of the Scot before the outriggers showing a carbon sprit.  

 

You can see a blog post about the project from his wife Amy: http://www.amysmithl...rankenscot.html

 

If you didn't know, Jeff Linton is...

 

2007  Lightning World Champion
2007 Flying Scot North American Champion
2007 Classic Moth National Champion
and oh yeah, 2007 Rolex Yachtsman of the year.... and that was just 2007
 
He's a 5 time sunfish North American Champion and he just won 2013 Flying Scot North Americans... again. 
 
OH Rodgers (Kiwi 35 fame) is helping him with the design... so he's got that going for him.

 

Amy has also started a new blog dedicated to the whole project itself but I can find that or the pic with the carbon sprit. I'll share if I can track them down.

 

That's a bit more than a hack job! Good luck to all Watertribe events are pretty serious and very different than normal sailboat racing.



#39 MicroTom

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:54 PM

Simple, manageable, seaworthy boats are often the boats in Key Largo at the finish.  They don't often win but their crews are often in the best spirits and best shape at the finish.

 

Agreed. I would also say based on the Core Sound, EC22 & Sea Pearl's success simple boats are proven winners too.

 

BTW, What do all these boats have in common? 20 - 22 ft water line. The biggest boats that can be easily managed by a two person crew where one person is frequently sailing solo so the other crew member can get rest is key.



#40 MisterMoon

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:18 AM


Simple, manageable, seaworthy boats are often the boats in Key Largo at the finish.  They don't often win but their crews are often in the best spirits and best shape at the finish.

 
Agreed. I would also say based on the Core Sound, EC22 & Sea Pearl's success simple boats are proven winners too.
 
BTW, What do all these boats have in common? 20 - 22 ft water line. The biggest boats that can be easily managed by a two person crew where one person is frequently sailing solo so the other crew member can get rest is key.

One of the nice things about the Core Sound boats is there is nothing for the crew to do while sailing. Except sit up front and get wet that is... They are very easily manged from the helm.

#41 zerothehero

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:58 AM

The Nomad was simple but we couldn't really sleep while underway , that was definitely slowing us down.  Even still I had projected a 5-6 day race and we were ahead of that so I was pleased.  The other thing about Core Sounds, they fit under more bridges than a sloop.  We were with the 2 Sea Pearls till the bridges.  Had one operator slow us down a 1/2 hour as he debated with us whether or not he would open.  Note to would be challengers, what finally got him to open was us saying we had a float plan filed with the CG.  That and I stated that there was no where I could stop and drop the mast.  Might have been a slight exaggeration but it was blowing 20+ and pushing us into the bridge, there was very little room.



#42 El Chupacabra

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:59 AM

GOOOOO the Frankenscot!!  :)



#43 zerothehero

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:10 AM

Simple, manageable, seaworthy boats are often the boats in Key Largo at the finish.  They don't often win but their crews are often in the best spirits and best shape at the finish.

 

Agreed. I would also say based on the Core Sound, EC22 & Sea Pearl's success simple boats are proven winners too.

 

BTW, What do all these boats have in common? 20 - 22 ft water line. The biggest boats that can be easily managed by a two person crew where one person is frequently sailing solo so the other crew member can get rest is key.

Micro T, could you guys sleep under the deck, or in the boat?  You pushed on pretty fast.  We only saw you at CP1 and then the finish.



#44 MicroTom

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:35 AM

 The other thing about Core Sounds, they fit under more bridges than a sloop.  We were with the 2 Sea Pearls till the bridges.  Had one operator slow us down a 1/2 hour as he debated with us whether or not he would open.  Note to would be challengers, what finally got him to open was us saying we had a float plan filed with the CG.  That and I stated that there was no where I could stop and drop the mast.  Might have been a slight exaggeration but it was blowing 20+ and pushing us into the bridge, there was very little room.

 

 

I have heard stories of bridges that wont open for sailing vessels but each year we have no issue. Either they open on request or they come back with the scheduled opening time. I have been asked to drop sail and go to engine but informed them that this was not an option. Not sure why we have had such good luck.

 

Micro T, could you guys sleep under the deck, or in the boat?  You pushed on pretty fast.  We only saw you at CP1 and then the finish.

 

Only option was in the cockpit. Terrible most of the time. Ok for ideal conditions.

 

We broke the rudder on day one. (Yes two years in a row for those that follow along). With the boat broke we slept at CP1 for the first night and made arrangements to have a backup rudder delivered in Ft Myers Beach where we spent night #2. With the rudder problems sorted out we sailed strait through to the finish from there.

 

We had high hopes of duking it out with SOS & DWSB this year but it wasn't meant to be. 2013 may have been our last attempt at a Class 4 win. I am registered in Class 3 with my daughter for 2014.



#45 phillysailor

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:11 AM

The Norseboat has a two-piece free-standing CF mast which lent itself to dropping sails, wrapping the main up with sail ties and slacking the halyards and downhauls in order to facilitate popping out the upper section. I fashioned a "T" out of PVC pipe to cup the upper section of the mast in the stump of the lower section forward, and jury rigged a bimini aft to support the skinny end. Later in the race, and again during Okumefest, I was able to duck a bridge without hardly halting forward progress. Just have to be careful not to foul the lines when hoisting the mast on the other side. 

 

When dropped, the mast was a perfect spine for a siltarp stretched to either side of the boat and velcro'd around the mast base forward to seal off wind and rain at night. Comfy little tent. Open to the stern to allow for cooking, necessary relief, and checking the weather. 



#46 Steam Flyer

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:03 AM


Simple, manageable, seaworthy boats are often the boats in Key Largo at the finish.  They don't often win but their crews are often in the best spirits and best shape at the finish.

 

Agreed. I would also say based on the Core Sound, EC22 & Sea Pearl's success simple boats are proven winners too.

 

BTW, What do all these boats have in common? 20 - 22 ft water line. The biggest boats that can be easily managed by a two person crew where one person is frequently sailing solo so the other crew member can get rest is key.

 

That would be one of my priorities, too... it's not fun to be wet, cold, miserable, and it does nothing to increase performance! This is one area the Scot would be good at. I don't think getting it up/down the beach would be any more onerous than the other big monohulls: rollers, anchor & tackle, and lots of grunt. I would be interested to see if he makes it self-bailing, and what the propulsion alternatives are.

 

The Core Sound cat-ketches, Sea Pearls, and EC-22 all are a LOT sharper forward, also excel at controllability in shallow water. I still don't think the Scot is such a great hull to start with, but if that's what the man has then let's see how it goes!

 

Tempest_1.png

 

I was contemplating doing a stretch job on a 5O5... not hard to find cheap, structural integrity not a problem, fast as goose shit... but I think the Tempest would be a better proposition. It's a bit roomier and already self-bailing, bigger rig to start with, sharper forward and higher freeboard too. The keel is in a slot, probably need to rebuild it since it was originally a flat plate anyway. I'd go with a offset pivot ballasted CB but a dagger wold work fine too.  Kick-up rudder on the transom, reef points, put on a cuddy hood to help keep the crew dry, reef points, oars & oar locks, hiking bench instead of trapeze... is that too much work for a Monster Garage project?

 

Attached File  Tempest mods for EC.gif   19.33K   14 downloads

 

There's not too many boats this size whose ass a Tempest will not kick thoroughly, blow high or low... that includes catamarans BTW

 

;)

 

FB- Doug



#47 zerothehero

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:25 AM

hey the more the merrier!  Get a Tempest and kick some ass.  I agree about the Scot not being a great shape, raced em for years an dubbed them "the Exxon Valdez of one designs".



#48 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 06:05 AM

that boat is a cock-up from the get go.
a quick look at most pics will show racks are angled up in nearly every other class example.
this is what a plumber might come up with.


So you say. I expect to watch them sail off over the horizon, never to be seen again by me
.

.

do you mean never to be seen sailing again like a k35?

.

OH Rodgers (Kiwi 35 fame) is helping him with the design... so he's got that going for him.

.

"so hes' got that going for .."

uhuh, good record with winged boats?



#49 Steam Flyer

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:23 PM

hey the more the merrier!  Get a Tempest and kick some ass.  I agree about the Scot not being a great shape, raced em for years an dubbed them "the Exxon Valdez of one designs".

 

There's one sitting unloved in a backyard near us.

Can't do it myself until I dig my way out from under all these g#%d#&%m Optis and FJs. Dave's Raider will be an awesome boat for it, too; although I personally wouldn't be all that enthused about living aboard it for a week.

 

:blink:

 

How about rounding up a bunch more Nomads?

 

FB- Doug



#50 samc99us

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:42 PM

 


Simple, manageable, seaworthy boats are often the boats in Key Largo at the finish.  They don't often win but their crews are often in the best spirits and best shape at the finish.

 

Agreed. I would also say based on the Core Sound, EC22 & Sea Pearl's success simple boats are proven winners too.

 

BTW, What do all these boats have in common? 20 - 22 ft water line. The biggest boats that can be easily managed by a two person crew where one person is frequently sailing solo so the other crew member can get rest is key.

 

That would be one of my priorities, too... it's not fun to be wet, cold, miserable, and it does nothing to increase performance! This is one area the Scot would be good at. I don't think getting it up/down the beach would be any more onerous than the other big monohulls: rollers, anchor & tackle, and lots of grunt. I would be interested to see if he makes it self-bailing, and what the propulsion alternatives are.

 

The Core Sound cat-ketches, Sea Pearls, and EC-22 all are a LOT sharper forward, also excel at controllability in shallow water. I still don't think the Scot is such a great hull to start with, but if that's what the man has then let's see how it goes!

 

Tempest_1.png

 

I was contemplating doing a stretch job on a 5O5... not hard to find cheap, structural integrity not a problem, fast as goose shit... but I think the Tempest would be a better proposition. It's a bit roomier and already self-bailing, bigger rig to start with, sharper forward and higher freeboard too. The keel is in a slot, probably need to rebuild it since it was originally a flat plate anyway. I'd go with a offset pivot ballasted CB but a dagger wold work fine too.  Kick-up rudder on the transom, reef points, put on a cuddy hood to help keep the crew dry, reef points, oars & oar locks, hiking bench instead of trapeze... is that too much work for a Monster Garage project?

 

attachicon.gifTempest mods for EC.gif

 

There's not too many boats this size whose ass a Tempest will not kick thoroughly, blow high or low... that includes catamarans BTW

 

;)

 

FB- Doug

 

Might want to check your facts there. A Hobie 18 is faster than a 505. Sorry but beating Livingstons 26 hour record set on a Tornado isn't going to happen with a monohull, and would be darn hard to beat regardless of what gun you showed up with (another T, F20C or F18).

 

I'm not sure what top speed is in the Tempest but we were averaging over 15kts in the NCC 100 on my old Hobie 18 with all the gear required...covered 50+ nm in well under 4 hours. Now that was a very wet ride, if the Tempest with cuddie cabin was a touch slower but much drier it could be a winner. Sleeping on the H18 while under way isn't an option.



#51 Steam Flyer

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:43 PM

 

... ... ...

There's not too many boats this size whose ass a Tempest will not kick thoroughly, blow high or low... that includes catamarans BTW

 

;)

 

FB- Doug

 

Might want to check your facts there. A Hobie 18 is faster than a 505. Sorry but beating Livingstons 26 hour record set on a Tornado isn't going to happen with a monohull, and would be darn hard to beat regardless of what gun you showed up with (another T, F20C or F18).

 

I'm not sure what top speed is in the Tempest but we were averaging over 15kts in the NCC 100 on my old Hobie 18 with all the gear required...covered 50+ nm in well under 4 hours. Now that was a very wet ride, if the Tempest with cuddie cabin was a touch slower but much drier it could be a winner. Sleeping on the H18 while under way isn't an option.

 

The 26-hour record is an awesome accomplishment and not likely to be broken for a long time. 

 

No need to check facts though. I've beaten Hobie 18s (and 17s, and several varieties of Nacra) on a humble Lightning, around the buoys. The biggest advantage multis have is close reaching in a chop; although one would reasonably expect multis to be faster than monos under a wide range of circumstances.

 

Once you start factoring in carrying a load, crew fatigue, alternative propulsion, dropping the mast, etc etc; multis don't look all that attractive to me from a design standpoint (but then I am not a big multihull anyway). When you're looking at dash speed under ideal conditions, planing is faster than displacement sailing.

 

Grahame Byrnes beat all the multis including a Tornado 3 times in a row.

 

My hat is off to all you guys who have completed the EC. It's a heck to an accomplishment and I'm not going to be able to take a whack at it myself for at least a couple of years. Meanwhile let's see how people think differently to meet the challenge.

 

FB- Doug



#52 MisterMoon

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:47 AM

I had an email from 2012 class 4 winner Lugnut who pointed out that as far as he knows no stayed rig has ever won the monohull class. I did some research and found out this was true. 

 

2001: Escape Expedition

2002: no entries

2003: Paradox (Matt Layden's futuristic sharpie)

2004: Norseboat 17.5

2005: Norseboat 17.5

2006: Core Sound 17

2007: Core Sound 17

2008: EC22 (22' cat ketch)

2009: EC22

2010: Sea Pearl 21

2011: Core Sound 20

2012: Frolic 2 (Michalak design, Lugnut's boat)

2013: Core Sound 20 

 

The closest anyone else has ever come was in 2011 when MicroTom came in on the heels of the CS20 aboard their Lightning. 

 

As you can see, it's been quite a streak for the free-standers. Also, since 2006 every winner has been either a cat ketch or a yawl. 

 

Will Frankenscot break the streak and finally win with a stayed rig? If it's true the i550 Hot Canary is returning, they could be a major threat to the streak as well. Or will a dark horse emerge? 



#53 fairlane

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 03:15 AM

Grahame Byrnes beat all the multis including a Tornado 3 times in a row.

 

 

 

FB- Doug

 

I thought the only Tornado to ever enter the EC was Jamie Livingston? Grahame has never beat Jamie.



#54 zerothehero

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 04:18 AM

remember top speed in the EC isn't everything.  Average speed is.  You need a different boat and sailing style to win here.



#55 They Had Yodas and Shit

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 03:14 PM

 

that boat is a cock-up from the get go.
a quick look at most pics will show racks are angled up in nearly every other class example.
this is what a plumber might come up with.


So you say. I expect to watch them sail off over the horizon, never to be seen again by me
.

.

do you mean never to be seen sailing again like a k35?

.

>OH Rodgers (Kiwi 35 fame) is helping him with the design... so he's got that going for him.

.

"so hes' got that going for .."

uhuh, good record with winged boats?

 

I don't know anything regarding how the K35 measured up to other winged boats. Only said that to imply that there is a naval architect on board with this entry making this is a very competitive effort.

 

I would think most people would enter a race like this just for the thrill of finishing rather than doing it to win. Anyone who does this race are bolder than I am and I tip my hat to them. Wondering if this entry will get other serious racers attention and start raising the level of competition in the future. That would be interesting, making this the ultimate soap box derby of sorts. I don't mean to imply that anyone doing these races now aren't serious racers, obviously they are or they wouldn't be doing them, just getting to the start line is an adventure. I only found out about this race last year and it really caught my attention. 



#56 lindy 911

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

A note about the competition: After watching most of the video from last years event, it seems to me most who entered are about my age (55). I was in the boundary waters of Canada ten years ago or so paddling a canoe route for time. This route included many portages from lake to lake and was about 150 miles, start to finish. It took us four days to complete pushing pretty hard.

 

There are teams who train for an event up there that follows the same route. The record is 27 hours. My point is if this event catches fire you'll see much fitter participants making much faster finish times. I'm taking nothing away from those who currently participate, only observing that they are about my same age and physical fitness level. That means that guys in their 20s and superbly fit would kit our old asses. 



#57 Steam Flyer

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

... ...
 

 

I would think most people would enter a race like this just for the thrill of finishing rather than doing it to win. Anyone who does this race are bolder than I am and I tip my hat to them. Wondering if this entry will get other serious racers attention and start raising the level of competition in the future. That would be interesting, making this the ultimate soap box derby of sorts. I don't mean to imply that anyone doing these races now aren't serious racers, obviously they are or they wouldn't be doing them, just getting to the start line is an adventure. I only found out about this race last year and it really caught my attention. 

 

It's still pretty far outside the mainstream but starting to get a lot more press. It's also very far outside the mainstream of 'normal' sailing events, sort of combining dinghy racing with open-sea paddling (why aren't more oarsmen coming) and offshore racing.

 

Thinking more about the Flying Scot- it's a lousy hull shape but quite a tough hull. And this is an event where many (perhaps most) boats can't take the hammering they get. Especially with the soap-box derby aspect where the thinking tends to be eclectic and over-engineered.

 

 

A note about the competition: After watching most of the video from last years event, it seems to me most who entered are about my age (55). I was in the boundary waters of Canada ten years ago or so paddling a canoe route for time. This route included many portages from lake to lake and was about 150 miles, start to finish. It took us four days to complete pushing pretty hard.

 

There are teams who train for an event up there that follows the same route. The record is 27 hours. My point is if this event catches fire you'll see much fitter participants making much faster finish times. I'm taking nothing away from those who currently participate, only observing that they are about my same age and physical fitness level. That means that guys in their 20s and superbly fit would kit our old asses. 

 

Maybe, maybe not. There is a strong component of wisdom in prioritizing, and good ol' treachery, in success for an event like this ... much more so with a sailboat than straight paddling. I frankly can't understand why the EC has not attracted more open-water oarsmen; there are a number of other raid-style events with both rowing & paddling craft... the rowboats beat the kayaks by a lot. None of the other events (that I know about) are this long or this difficult from the aspect of wilderness survival, weather, open water, and navigating. As for fitness, check in with the guy who did it with a stand-up paddleboard!

 

FB- Doug



#58 zerothehero

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:29 PM

don't dare sell the old timers short.  There are some very serious paddlers and sailors in this that don't look like what you would expect.  In 2012 there was a guy there with a racing canoe.  He didn't look like much of a serious paddler.  Turned out he had raced the Yukon 1000 and wrote a book about it.  There are some seriously tough people in this thing.  They can keep going long after most of us can.  Look at Jarhead, 5th place overall in a Sea Pearl.  His solo time was 2 days, 23 hours, 45 minutes.  300 miles alone in sub 3 days, and he is probably around 65 years old.  One tough guy!  And he was super nice.

 

As per the Scot, when we were getting ready I calcu-guessed that if we could keep a 5 knot average speed we would finish in 5-6 days or so.  When we got back iirc we had an overall average of around 6.5 for a 4 day, 10 hr, 18 min time.  The lead boats average speeds we in the 10 range, again iirc.  The Scot will take good care of the crew, heck it's a cruise ship compared to a puffer or sea kayak.  Upwind it won't be fast, but off the wind they could see some good numbers and could get that average speed up there.  The EC isn't a race you win by sprinting then stopping.  It's won by boats that keep moving and don't stop.  Even slower boats can do really well if they just keep going.  My wife and I weren't going for a win, we were just there to say we did it.  We stopped and slept every night.  We knew we were giving away time but that wasn't our goal.  



#59 lindy 911

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:41 PM

I did not mean to offend if I did, but I'm 55, played soccer competitively until very recently, bench about 215 x 10 and ten years ago was way better than that. What I'm trying to say is if the young athletes who are smart enough to finish catch on to this, watch out. I don't care how great of shape you're in at 55. A kid who's a true athlete at 25 will kick your ass for days on end. Pure and simple.



#60 zerothehero

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:34 AM

Lindy 911, you'd kick my ass!  I'm 39, 150 lbs., 5'5" and a bit soft.  Good on ya for being in great shape.  My point was just that the tribe people are tough buggers, and it's as much about mental attitude as fitness.  And no, I wasn't offended, takes way more than that.



#61 Steam Flyer

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:32 PM

Here's a GREAT candidate for a Monster Garage sailboat, EC or not.

 

Highlander (the Flying Scot's older sightly bigger and much better-looking sister)

http://richmond.crai...3961229709.html

 

I've thought of making a mini-cruiser out of one of these for a long time. Looks like you get a fairly decent trailer with it.

 

FB- Doug



#62 zerothehero

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:55 PM

Highlanders are bigger?  I always thought they were smaller.  Gotta look into that.  Yup they are, not sure why I always thought they were around 17-18 feet.  Learn something new everyday



#63 bruno

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:41 PM

How much of an issue are portages and shoals, do you need to carry a dolly?

#64 MisterMoon

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 01:26 AM

No ordinary need to portage for the EC, but the longer Ultimate Florida requires a ~40 mile portage from the St. Mary's to the Suwannee River. 

 

You do need to be able to get your boat at the start from the high tide line to the water. Anything you use for this purpose must be carried with you for the entire challenge. 



#65 zerothehero

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 01:49 AM

How much of an issue are portages and shoals, do you need to carry a dolly?

bruno, check out this page,   http://watertribe.co...ge/Default.aspx

 

When you are done you might be a card carrying WT nutter like MM, me, and more than a few others here on SA



#66 BalticBandit

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 08:32 AM

Lindy 911, you'd kick my ass!  I'm 39, 150 lbs., 5'5" and a bit soft.  Good on ya for being in great shape.  My point was just that the tribe people are tough buggers, and it's as much about mental attitude as fitness.  And no, I wasn't offended, takes way more than that.

Well its a fair point but I think what Lindy is referring to is that if you start getting entrants like those who do the Adventure Racing World Series http://www.arworldseries.com/  and the component Expedtion races http://www.goldrushar.com/ you might see times drop.    In fact WaterTribe - if it wants to get more visibility and sponsorship could consider an org like ARWS....



#67 zerothehero

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 01:51 PM

In 2011 Randy Smyth did the course in 1 day, 16 hours, 14 minutes, and that's with the old CP1 bridge filter.  So an average of 7.5 mph give or take (based on 300 miles).  Super fit Adventure racers are going to have a tough time touching that in class 1,2,or 3.  Paddling at almost 8 mph for 40+ hours?   Now they could take class wins and set new records in those classes, there is plenty of opportunity there.

 

Also, Chief really likes the people, he created this event to attract people like him and I think he is fine with that.  I don't see him wanting it to become super commercialized with Pro teams, but I am not Chief. Maybe he does.



#68 DaveK

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 03:36 PM

don't dare sell the old timers short.  There are some very serious paddlers and sailors in this that don't look like what you would expect.  In 2012 there was a guy there with a racing canoe.  He didn't look like much of a serious paddler.  Turned out he had raced the Yukon 1000 and wrote a book about it.  There are some seriously tough people in this thing.  They can keep going long after most of us can.  Look at Jarhead, 5th place overall in a Sea Pearl.  His solo time was 2 days, 23 hours, 45 minutes.  300 miles alone in sub 3 days, and he is probably around 65 years old.  One tough guy!  And he was super nice.

 

As per the Scot, when we were getting ready I calcu-guessed that if we could keep a 5 knot average speed we would finish in 5-6 days or so.  When we got back iirc we had an overall average of around 6.5 for a 4 day, 10 hr, 18 min time.  The lead boats average speeds we in the 10 range, again iirc.  The Scot will take good care of the crew, heck it's a cruise ship compared to a puffer or sea kayak.  Upwind it won't be fast, but off the wind they could see some good numbers and could get that average speed up there.  The EC isn't a race you win by sprinting then stopping.  It's won by boats that keep moving and don't stop.  Even slower boats can do really well if they just keep going.  My wife and I weren't going for a win, we were just there to say we did it.  We stopped and slept every night.  We knew we were giving away time but that wasn't our goal.  

 

You do mean your moving average @ 6.5knts don't ya :)  Otherwise you'd have finished in half the time.



#69 bruno

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:08 PM

How much of an issue are portages and shoals, do you need to carry a dolly?

bruno, check out this page,   http://watertribe.co...ge/Default.aspx
 
When you are done you might be a card carrying WT nutter like MM, me, and more than a few others here on SA

thanks, read it before asking, is why I asked. my questions are:
how long?
how flat?
type of trail, width, surface, height, etc,?
I understand that if a dolly is used it must be. carried.
and what about the 40 miler?
thanks

#70 zerothehero

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:55 PM

DaveK, yeah moving average.  And I was off saying lead boats average 10.  It was less but not by a huge amount.

 

Bruno, In the EC the only time our boat was out of the water was at the start.  We used inflatable rollers to get into the water.  After that we never used them again.  Class 4 and 5 boats don't have to portage in the EC at all.  The other classes have to portage only if they go inside on the Wilderness Waterway.  If they do that they have a 200 yard portage from the fresh water side to the salt at CP 3.  Many of the boats that do that carry a small cart built for their type of craft.  Some just carry them over.  For the UFC there is a 40 mile portage that is mostly on roads.  I do not know about the put in and take out as I have never seen it.  I think they are ramps for public access.  For that race most of the boats are class 1,2,or 3.  Kruger Canoes are pretty popular.  You obviously do need a cart for the ufc.  This vid shows one solution to the UFC portage.  They were allowed to switch boats because of low water.

 

 

and this is another, I don't know if this person ever competed though.  Switched to a proa after this was shot.

 

 

This one has video of the put in, a boat ramp.  Niel is getting ready for the UFC 2014, his tribe name is LeatherLungs.

 

 

Last one of his set up

 



#71 MisterMoon

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:58 PM

I'm not sure what you are asking. On the Everglades Challenge, as long as you are not taking the Wilderness Waterway or some part of it, there is no reason to portage your boat. For those approaching the Flamingo checkpoint from the WW, there is a short portage of about 200 yards from the freshwater canal on the Everglades side to the saltwater basin on the Florida bay side. This is the preferred route for the kayakers. As far as I know, only two class 4 monohull sailboats have ever done this: Wizard in his 9' Elusion in the 2010 Ultimate Florida Challenge, and last year by the Pamperin brothers in their Phoenix III skiff. Everyone else just sails down around Cape Sable in their sailboats.  Anything you use to help with the portage must be carried with you the entire challenge. I'd rather sail around shoals than drag over them. 

 

On the UFC, there is a 40 mile portage alongside two lane state highways. It's possible to stay on the pavement a lot of the time, but you will be dragging your boat on the grassy right of way alongside the paved highway quite a bit.Big logging trucks will be constantly coming at you and you need to stay out of their way. Therefore your rig needs to allow for some off-roading, as it were. So the surfaces range from grass to gravel to pavement. And probably some sandy spots along the way. 



#72 CrazyR

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 08:57 PM

Lindy 911, you'd kick my ass!  I'm 39, 150 lbs., 5'5" and a bit soft.  Good on ya for being in great shape.  My point was just that the tribe people are tough buggers, and it's as much about mental attitude as fitness.  And no, I wasn't offended, takes way more than that.

Well its a fair point but I think what Lindy is referring to is that if you start getting entrants like those who do the Adventure Racing World Series http://www.arworldseries.com/  and the component Expedtion races http://www.goldrushar.com/ you might see times drop.    In fact WaterTribe - if it wants to get more visibility and sponsorship could consider an org like ARWS....

Well, the truth is that Watertribe Challenges are well known in paddling world and they are prime time events. It covers class 1 and 2 and 3 entrants. Basically, you will see many watertribers at any long distance paddling events, and most likely they will be the leaders.

 

It is also well known fact that beach multihulls sailors are aware of Watertribe Events and the leaders of class 5 are well known world class multihull sailors.

 

There is wierdo looking class 4 - sailing monohulls. Yes, these are mostly freestanding and mostly two masts boats.

However, these boats proved to be just the right tool for the task. If you really look into bios of the leaders of the class 4, you realize that the level of both racing and long distance sailing experience  is extremely high in this class too. The winner and record setter class 4 boat this year, Core Sound 20, was skippered by Alan Steward, who is well known multihull sailor, veteran of Tybee 500 and about every other long distance catamaran race in US. He also skippered an expedition sailboat 2/3 way across the globe. And, I believe, he is still under 30 y.o.  Yes, it is true, that majority of the tribe are middle-age men, however, we have 10 years old and 80 years old people finishing  the Challenges. These are also great family events, there are many father-son, mother-son, father-daughter and husband and wife teams. 

Rugged challenge requires a rugged appearance. Just don't judge the level of expertise by the look of the crowd. And, if you decided to enter, expect to be beaten up.  Over last few years Everglades Challenge has become more friendlier for sailors - most of the difficult filters(low and narrow bridges, long tidal creek) are gone. So, I guess, we will see more "normal" racing boats. And it is quite interesting to watch how well they will perform...



#73 MisterMoon

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 01:22 AM

Fwiw, I never thought the bridge and tidal creek was that big a deal at least the two years I did it.

#74 zerothehero

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 01:57 AM

CrazyR great to have you join the discussion.  So what do you think of the Scot?  Care to discuss your tales of the UFC.  Yes folks CrazyR is a finisher of the 1200 miler!  I am always impressed at that.



#75 zerothehero

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 01:59 AM

here he is running the river section!

 



#76 CrazyR

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 03:37 AM


Fwiw, I never thought the bridge and tidal creek was that big a deal at least the two years I did it.


I'm with the Tribe from very first Challenge in 2001. I posted bits on info here and on Catsailor.com. i watched the sailing forums. My impression is that the old checkpoint 1 has always been a stumping ground for sailors. I mean not the ones who entered, but ones who tried to wrap their heads around the concept of the race. Besides, we had had the discussion on Watertribe forum prior to EC2013 http://watertribe.or.../course-records and many sailing veterans said that the new checkpoint has made entire Challenge significantly easier. It seems like this year's results proved the point.

#77 CrazyR

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:02 AM

CrazyR great to have you join the discussion.  So what do you think of the Scot?  Care to discuss your tales of the UFC.  Yes folks CrazyR is a finisher of the 1200 miler!  I am always impressed at that.

Well, I stopped passing my judgement on other people's sanity ever since EC2003. My A-class catamaran was sitting near Wizard's "Paradox", and I though that this box will never make to  checkpoint 1, never mind the finish. He proceeded to win overall, I finished two days later. 

 

Racks, if properly made, will help to drive a boat fast. It is all sexy to trapeese around cans, however getting on a wire through a night or on a second day doesn't feel that dandy anymore.



#78 zerothehero

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 01:14 PM


Fwiw, I never thought the bridge and tidal creek was that big a deal at least the two years I did it.


I'm with the Tribe from very first Challenge in 2001. I posted bits on info here and on Catsailor.com. i watched the sailing forums. My impression is that the old checkpoint 1 has always been a stumping ground for sailors. I mean not the ones who entered, but ones who tried to wrap their heads around the concept of the race. Besides, we had had the discussion on Watertribe forum prior to EC2013 http://watertribe.or.../course-records and many sailing veterans said that the new checkpoint has made entire Challenge significantly easier. It seems like this year's results proved the point.

I agree that the new CP1 makes it easier, or at least I perceive it does.  2013 was my first race so I had to sail the race that was given.  Was all set to drop the rig too.  As a young guy I too was a bit judgmental on Friday walking the beach looking at all the innovation.  It's funny how you think you know what will be good before you go.  Once you get in and have done it suddenly you look at the boats a different way.



#79 MisterMoon

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 01:55 AM

More Frankenscot goodness: http://www.amysmithl...bulking-up.html. It's starting to look like a boat, but oh my, just looking at those photos makes me itch all over. And not in a good way...

5895134_orig.jpg

 

 

There is another Watertribe event starting in North Carolina at the end of September, the North Carolina Pamlico Challenge. It looks like very physically demanding event for sailors because there will be a lot of rowing and/or paddling in the canals. I'll be working the race as an official, manning checkpoint 2 in the bustling burg of Hobucken, NC. I was told by someone in the know there isn't much to do there, so she hoped I like to drink! I'll manage, I'm sure. 



#80 They Had Yodas and Shit

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:29 PM

They just posted video of the Frankenscot under spinnaker. I never thought a Scot could move that fast. Holy.Shit.

 

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#81 Chris O

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:01 PM

I'm still not convinced that this boat is going to be the fast ride that some seem to assume. Here it is on really flat water, dudes all hung out off the racks and it's still fairly close to the water, even when being sailed flat. Load this thing with a full EC gear compliment and all the stores needed to run the course and .... well, it's gonna be very wet, open to swamping and still not nearly as fast as a race prepped  and race winning proven, Tornado, such as the one sailed by Lumpy, Bumpy, etc.

 

I say get those wings up at more of an angle to give some added clearance over the swells that are routine sea state stuff outside the barrier islands. That's number one and then some kind of dodger to keep a lot of the wave top action out of the boat, even if it does self-drain.

 

If they keep it inside, then it could be doable, but that is a whole lot less wind.

 

Anyway, it'll be interesting to track the process.



#82 DaveK

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:02 PM

They just posted video of the Frankenscot under spinnaker. I never thought a Scot could move that fast. Holy.Shit.

 

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Awesome.... 14 knts! On a flying sidewalk!



#83 torrid

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:23 PM

What's next, hydrofoils?



#84 eliboat

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 12:49 AM

I'm still not convinced that this boat is going to be the fast ride that some seem to assume. Here it is on really flat water, dudes all hung out off the racks and it's still fairly close to the water, even when being sailed flat. Load this thing with a full EC gear compliment and all the stores needed to run the course and .... well, it's gonna be very wet, open to swamping and still not nearly as fast as a race prepped  and race winning proven, Tornado, such as the one sailed by Lumpy, Bumpy, etc.

 

I say get those wings up at more of an angle to give some added clearance over the swells that are routine sea state stuff outside the barrier islands. That's number one and then some kind of dodger to keep a lot of the wave top action out of the boat, even if it does self-drain.

 

If they keep it inside, then it could be doable, but that is a whole lot less wind.

 

Anyway, it'll be interesting to track the process.

Not to mention that they are sailing a tight reach with the Asail.  Along with the weight, deeper angles or upwind won't be nearly as lively 



#85 MisterMoon

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:17 AM

I'm still not convinced that this boat is going to be the fast ride that some seem to assume. Here it is on really flat water, dudes all hung out off the racks and it's still fairly close to the water, even when being sailed flat. Load this thing with a full EC gear compliment and all the stores needed to run the course and .... well, it's gonna be very wet, open to swamping and still not nearly as fast as a race prepped  and race winning proven, Tornado, such as the one sailed by Lumpy, Bumpy, etc.

 

I say get those wings up at more of an angle to give some added clearance over the swells that are routine sea state stuff outside the barrier islands. That's number one and then some kind of dodger to keep a lot of the wave top action out of the boat, even if it does self-drain.

 

If they keep it inside, then it could be doable, but that is a whole lot less wind.

 

Anyway, it'll be interesting to track the process.

Not to mention that they are sailing a tight reach with the Asail.  Along with the weight, deeper angles or upwind won't be nearly as lively 

 

I hate to say it but chances of being able to sail at those angles on the EC are few and far between. My experience is it's either dead on the nose or dead aft, blowing too hard or not hard enough. 

 

As for the EC gear, they should be able to pack out with no more than 80# of gear including anchor, spares, and water if they make half an effort at keeping it light. And maybe 100# if they don't. The gear isn't going to weigh that boat down much at all. It ain't no kayak. 

 

It's not racing against the Tornadoes of the world anyway. It looks like a good boat for class IV monohulls though. I'm in the same class as the Scot, we're just going to race to finish. And that means I plan to sleep for at least 6 hours every night. 



#86 CrazyR

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

Impressive, yes. However, their main competitors, Core Sounds aren't slow downwind either, and Sea Pearls are better multipurpose boats. Don't forget that there are many places where boat needs to be maneuvered in tight quarters or restrictive channels. I'm pretty sure that the Monster Scott will be fine open water boat, even with the low racks, but I'd like to see sea trails using oars before I put my money on this boat... Sailing monstrosity of the design may prevent skippers from choosing shorter protected routes. This race is won on navigational tactics more often than just using pure power.



#87 CrazyR

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 12:04 PM

Here is an illustration to my previous post. 

Depending on sea state, tide, time of the day (just imagine you are approaching the area at sunset), tiredness of a crew, chosen route may easily add a huge advantage or eat all of 1 knot of the speed you gained on competitors during previous big water crossing.Note that the only top or lower routes are "all weather"

There are numerous places on the race course where skipper has to make decisions like this one. 

Attached Files



#88 zerothehero

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 01:38 PM

CR funny you should post that.  We took the route that you have 1 up from the bottom, cutting inside the shoals but rounding the point.  And we got there about 6-6:30 iirc.  Originally my plans was to go way out and around, your bottom route.  However conditions and daylight changed my mind.  There was still a pretty large swell rolling in and I could see the cut between the bar and the martian house was not breaking so I went for it.  I was worried that if we went outside and it got dark we might get ourselves too close to a shoal and suddenly be in the surf zone.  As it was we sailed over a bar just as a set came in and although they didn't break there was still that "oh Shit!" moment when it looked like we were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  I was much happier once we got into the bay, even if the water was only 3 feet deep.

 

I think the Scot looks pretty good.  Will it be good for 300 miles?  Who knows.  Jeff knows his stuff so I am guessing he is well prepared.  Don't forget everybody on the side lines, this is an adventure race.  A big part of the adventure is the boat.  Most tribers buy older boats that are no longer one design competitive and mod them, or build something from scratch.  Look at boats that have tried it.  Puddle Duck Racer, Blue Jay (finished), i550 (finished), Lightning (finished), Hobie 16,18, Getaway (finished), CR's inflatable cat (UFC finisher), Core Sound 17,20,22 (finished), Siracco 16 (finished), Sea Pearl (finished), AMF Puffer, CLC 8 foot pram (finished).  I could go on.  Never mind all the kayaks, surf skis, Hobie AI and TI, even an SUP (finished)!  Looking at boats like a Blue Jay, Puffer, PDR, and the 8 foot pram makes the Scot look like an ocean liner.  And don't forget with the reefing rule this boat has many, many more gears to go through.  With the CB raised a little they could sail double reefed main only, out on the trap and still make headway even in a really good blow.  Conditions that will beach much of the fleet.  Or it could get ugly, wings digging in, etc.  A Fly Scot is responsive but far from twitchy.



#89 BalticBandit

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 02:14 PM

The Asail can be gybed VERY easily.  I used to short gybe my Laser II asso in 50 yds of water.  And that's at speed.  you can always choose to sail the asso DDW just like a normal kite

 

Rowing?  well I suspect these guys have a solution.  what it might well be is each a side rowing from the racks,  or you might put the oarlocks under the racks and a seat athwartships.  Rowing isn't going to be that hard.

 

And the nice thing about the racks - (I'm now converted)  is that you can get 75% of the RM of being on a trap without the need to be on the trap.  The freeboard allows you to rig a hammock inside the hull on either side so that one can get dry shuteye while the otherone drives.  So this thing will be running 24x7 AND be rested.  I'd not count them out



#90 DaveK

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 02:15 PM

So the depths on that chart are in feet? Holy shit!

 

Obviously, I don't sail much in saltwater :)



#91 Chris O

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:09 PM

It's not racing against the Tornadoes of the world anyway. It looks like a good boat for class IV monohulls though. I'm in the same class as the Scot, we're just going to race to finish. And that means I plan to sleep for at least 6 hours every night. 

 

I respectfully disagree with this take. If a boat lines up at the start with you and finishes at the same place you do... then you ARE racing against that boat and its crew. I get the business of breaking out the classes for purposes of handing around the teeth AND it's a big thrill to be first in any class, but that first to finish thing with a boat that is within the rules still sits on top of the stuff that gets mentioned the most.

 

As to how they will fare... only time will tell. As with any person, or crew, who engage this event, I wish them good luck and wonderful experiences.



#92 CrazyR

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:35 PM

The Asail can be gybed VERY easily.  I used to short gybe my Laser II asso in 50 yds of water.  And that's at speed.  you can always choose to sail the asso DDW just like a normal kite

 

Rowing?  well I suspect these guys have a solution.  what it might well be is each a side rowing from the racks,  or you might put the oarlocks under the racks and a seat athwartships.  Rowing isn't going to be that hard.

It doesn't mater how well you can gybe or tack when facing mile long 10 ft wide channel with stiff winds into face. And have three options. Wait for the wind to change, retract your steps back and do 20 miles detour, or push through. You need to know how to propel the boat using muscles.

I don't critique here, I like the  outcome so far. It is my advise not to forget about oars in all the excitement. Been there. I had to wait 8 hours to get into Indian Pass with my A-cat, not the inflatable one, in 2003. I broke both oarlocks getting into checkpoint one, and relied on the sailpower for the rest of the trip. It was slow, although I had the fastest boat on the start line.



#93 MisterMoon

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:03 PM

It's not racing against the Tornadoes of the world anyway. It looks like a good boat for class IV monohulls though. I'm in the same class as the Scot, we're just going to race to finish. And that means I plan to sleep for at least 6 hours every night. 

 

I respectfully disagree with this take. If a boat lines up at the start with you and finishes at the same place you do... then you ARE racing against that boat and its crew. I get the business of breaking out the classes for purposes of handing around the teeth AND it's a big thrill to be first in any class, but that first to finish thing with a boat that is within the rules still sits on top of the stuff that gets mentioned the most.

 

As to how they will fare... only time will tell. As with any person, or crew, who engage this event, I wish them good luck and wonderful experiences.

I've been there. What you are saying may be true for a very few, but for the most part it's a race against yourself. At least that's what I get from all the folks I know who do this event every year. There's seriously not all that much glory to be had. 



#94 zerothehero

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 06:58 PM

So the depths on that chart are in feet? Holy shit!

 

Obviously, I don't sail much in saltwater :)

That area of the course is very shallow considering how far off shore you are.  Actually the whole course is shallow, or it can be.  Down by Ponce De Leon Bay we were 2 miles off shore and suddenly we were in 5 feet of water.  Looked at the GPS and it was a shoal that came all the way out from shore.  Probably was 2 miles by 4 miles.  I wasn't really paying attention since we were so far off the beach till the wave action abruptly changed and a few minutes later the cb hit bottom.  All of Florida bay is less than 8 feet deep, hundreds of square miles.  In our crossing the deepest we saw was 5 feet.  The whole course is full of shifting shoals, sand bars, etc.  It adds to the fun!



#95 zerothehero

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:49 AM

Snort!  Tin Can would be awesome!  Just a few pesky filters to get through!  Not sure the "actual" draft would get through a few of the tougher parts though.



#96 zerothehero

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:55 AM

 

It's not racing against the Tornadoes of the world anyway. It looks like a good boat for class IV monohulls though. I'm in the same class as the Scot, we're just going to race to finish. And that means I plan to sleep for at least 6 hours every night. 

 

I respectfully disagree with this take. If a boat lines up at the start with you and finishes at the same place you do... then you ARE racing against that boat and its crew. I get the business of breaking out the classes for purposes of handing around the teeth AND it's a big thrill to be first in any class, but that first to finish thing with a boat that is within the rules still sits on top of the stuff that gets mentioned the most.

 

As to how they will fare... only time will tell. As with any person, or crew, who engage this event, I wish them good luck and wonderful experiences.

I've been there. What you are saying may be true for a very few, but for the most part it's a race against yourself. At least that's what I get from all the folks I know who do this event every year. There's seriously not all that much glory to be had. 

this is very true.  The EC is about testing the mind, mostly.  The boat?  Well it could drift most of the course given enough time.  When we put our boat on the beach I was worried about finishing.  Now that I have 2 other WT events scheduled my focus is sharpening and getting more competitive.  First timers, Rolex Yachtsmen or not, are focused on finishing.  Bets placed one way or another are either killed or rewarded, but killed is more likely.  MM see you on the beach.



#97 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:52 AM

here is a pic of the next monster garage watertribe project.  A Flying Scot with racks.  Rumored to be the project of Jeff Linton.  Also rumored to be sporting a bigger sail plan with square top main.  Will be cool to see it develop.  Class 4 has never been won by a sloop.  Will this be the year?

post-22698-0-70898500-1374329917_thumb.j

 

maybe you fellas could get a few tips from expert Welders and Plumbers like below ?

 

094.jpg



#98 BalticBandit

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:26 AM

Isn't that the Aussie entry into the America's cup?

 

What was the "one thing that goes down quicker than an Ice Cold Steinlager"?



#99 MisterMoon

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:42 PM

 

 

It's not racing against the Tornadoes of the world anyway. It looks like a good boat for class IV monohulls though. I'm in the same class as the Scot, we're just going to race to finish. And that means I plan to sleep for at least 6 hours every night. 

 

I respectfully disagree with this take. If a boat lines up at the start with you and finishes at the same place you do... then you ARE racing against that boat and its crew. I get the business of breaking out the classes for purposes of handing around the teeth AND it's a big thrill to be first in any class, but that first to finish thing with a boat that is within the rules still sits on top of the stuff that gets mentioned the most.

 

As to how they will fare... only time will tell. As with any person, or crew, who engage this event, I wish them good luck and wonderful experiences.

I've been there. What you are saying may be true for a very few, but for the most part it's a race against yourself. At least that's what I get from all the folks I know who do this event every year. There's seriously not all that much glory to be had. 

this is very true.  The EC is about testing the mind, mostly.  The boat?  Well it could drift most of the course given enough time.  When we put our boat on the beach I was worried about finishing.  Now that I have 2 other WT events scheduled my focus is sharpening and getting more competitive.  First timers, Rolex Yachtsmen or not, are focused on finishing.  Bets placed one way or another are either killed or rewarded, but killed is more likely.  MM see you on the beach.

 

Looks like I'll be seeing you in about three weeks on Cedar Island. Looking forward to it. 



#100 lindy 911

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:52 PM

Isn't that the Aussie entry into the America's cup?
 
What was the "one thing that goes down quicker than an Ice Cold Steinlager"?

Looks more like Oracle to me; 4 to 1 not looking good for team USA






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